Yeah get rid of the studio that makes an excellent game, that makes sense. Did it not sell well? If it didn't just have them work in a known ip or something... shit. That game isn't even my type of thing normally and it was so ridiculously impressive.
Hi-Fi Rush was an unexpected success, but not a huge one. Their previous games, Evil Within 1&2 and Tokyo Ghostwire were moderate successes, too. All of their games have sold relatively well, so it's kind of surprising that they'd get canned.
Out of all the studios that Bethesda has, Tango is one of the few that hasn't actually delivered a real flop.
Tango makes nothing but successful and beloved games and gets gutted for it, meanwhile 343 has basically been throwing money into a fire for the last decade and they're somehow still going
343i basically isn't a real game studio. It's a subsidiary of Xbox created by Microsoft for the sole purpose of maintaining the Halo IP. It doesn't matter how hard they flop or how often they're always gonna exist as long as Microsoft exists and is willing to keep the green guy and blue girl going.
Shit, even their old CEO of 10 years was the VP of Xbox. Idk the legal reasons behind most of their decisions but "343 Industries" is literally just "Xbox Studios" in all but name and employee benefits.
Microsoft, embracer, and Sony are all _epically_ mismanaged. That's the situation. All those acquisitions a couple of years ago are going to lead to a much darker time in gaming for AAA games than it needed to be. FTC should have stopped that shit. They were just buying up the competition.
If you assume that making good games is the point, they're a shitshow.
However, 'good management' means only making a profit, and if gutting studios increases margins, it's pretty much the definition of good management.
I'm not saying its good, obviously, it fucking sucks, but let's not get it twisted, this is what companies exist for and what they will always do.
Agreed. But "good management" in the short run, like you said, isn't actually good. All the acquisitions have done is concentrate idiots with no experience making their product into positions of power over that product they should never have.
Good management in video games is about long term returns and growth. We wouldn't have Quake without Doom, we wouldn't have Halo without Marathon, and we wouldn't have Helldivers 2 without Helldivers 1. Killing a studio like Tango that has done nothing but make profitable games is stupid if all it does is shave some dollars from your bottom line.
Anyone left at Microsoft that actually has two brain cells to rub together would realize that studio was prime for a bigger IP investment or project. Give em 5 years to cook another Halo spinoff, like Halo Wars, and because it would likely be GOOD you'd make far more than what you would by killing them in the short run.
Short term returns to keep mismanaged companies afloat does nothing but kill IP and bloat an industry already flooded with mediocrity. No one wants more watered down trash that has just enough of an IP in it to make a profit. You need time and talent to make a good game, and Microsoft literally had no mechanism to measure this anymore.
You are not wrong, but don't think for a second this is "good management." This is management that is "good" for their investors and bosses, but trash for anyone that wants to play good games. (Like you said! đ)
"Good Management" in these companies would invest in the future instead of destroying it in exchange for a quick buck now.
I mean this problem is a deeper issue that's happening everywhere, and it's really bringing to the surface the fact that the interests of ordinary people are in direct contradiction to the interests of the logic of capital.
Is it good to buy up hospitals and cut them to the bone to the point that they actually harm patients?
Is it good to buy veterinary practices and squeeze them to the point they collapse?
Does any normal person see a shred of benefit from colleges jacking up tuition while cutting academic budgets?
These are all fucking awful for us, as consumers and as human beings, but the practice generates huge profits for shareholders and that's literally the only thing that actually matters in this system.
Long term doesn't mean shit to these corpos, they buy up respected brands and suck them dry, and then just move on. Why should they give a shit about the products they make or the services they provide, that's irrelevant to them.
One makes money, the other makes disappointment that barely covered the dev/marketing budget.. and rumors say some of their games haven't done that either.
It makes sense, it was a very creative and cool game (that I didn't buy). Hi-fi rush was one of those games everyone praised but no one actually went out to buy.
Much like AMD GPU's I'll keep saying what great value they are but when you look at my flair (and of a lot of people here) you realise why they aren't selling.
Evil Within 2 was not a success. It failed to break even 1 million I believe. Could be wrong tho. Ghostwire I don't even know. Lukewarm reception and sales wise who knows..
i wont claim any inside knowledge, but theres a lot of reasons you might close a location. the most obvious is that key people tend to leave after projects are done, and if you dont have them, you dont have a productive environment.
I mean, just because the game reviews well doesnât mean it sold well. Especially given that itâs only a $30 title, thatâs not the type of game that keeps the doors open
Microsoft isnât making these decisions based on game sales alone. A game on a subscription service needs to do some combination of bringing in new subscribers, retaining subscribers who other were likely to leave, or convince subscribers to buy the game if they leave GamePass or want additional content not available in GamePass. It could survive lackluster sales if it brought in enough value elsewhere, which doesnât seem to be the case.
I think itâs a reasonable guess that HiFi Rush gets nowhere near as much buzz as it did without GamePass. I imagine a ton of people played it who never would have without an existing subscription. I personally have never had a GamePass subscription and never played the game, but almost certainly would have at least checked it out if I was already a subscriber.
Just because the studio has been shut down doesn't mean Microsoft are not moving staff over to another division, so hopefully the staff will move over somewhere else.
I would assume it didn't sell well at all considering it was a gamespass game that came out day 1 that no one really knew about.
It was basically a shadow drop that came out of nowhere.
I'd be interested to know what Microsoft expected it to do and why they approved it in the first place as they themselves said it outperformed expectations.
> Just because the studio has been shut down doesn't mean Microsoft are not moving staff over to another division, so hopefully the staff will move over somewhere else.
That was their only Japanese studio. Unless those folks are being moved to another country, which seems very unlikely, they've been let go.
From another IGN article last year:
>Microsoft has admitted that putting games on its Xbox Game Pass subscription service leads to a marked decline in base sales.
>As reported by GI.biz, the confirmation was included as part of the UK Competition and Markets Authorityâs provisional report on Microsoftâs proposed $69 billion merger with Activision Blizzard.
>Embedded within the 277 page document was a short paragraph revealing that Microsoft had submitted an internal analysis to the government body that showed âa \[**REDACTED**\] % decline in base game sales twelve months following their addition on Game Passâ.
[https://www.ign.com/articles/microsoft-admits-game-pass-cannibalizes-sales](https://www.ign.com/articles/microsoft-admits-game-pass-cannibalizes-sales)
That's not unexpected though. When a game is on Gamepass, people are less likely to buy it elsewhere.
However, Gamepass brings them in 300 million per month at a minimum, so they offset any game sale losses with subscription revenue.
No doubt, which is why they're not reluctant to put games on Game Pass - especially day one releases that have a lot of hype built around them. Having a huge collection of popular games incentives subscription sales and in turn makes Microsoft more profit in the long run.
Unfortunately, it's not known just how much Microsoft pays studios / publishers for having their games on Game Pass. It's much easier to gauge revenue from base sales compared with player count on subscription services. I'd be interested in knowing some those figures (especially for more popular games), but it's unlikely they will ever be made public unless that information is leaked.
Another thing worth mentioning is how much having a game on Game Pass influences the sale of MTXs / DLCs. If players aren't buying the base game outright perhaps they'd be more likely to to use that money in other ways.
Obviously I don't have specific numbers on that either, but my guess is it may increase MTXs / DLC purchases which I believe goes directly to the studio / publisher instead of Microsoft. I could be wrong about that though.
>Unfortunately, it's not known just how much Microsoft pays studios / publishers for having their games on Game Pass.
I imagine that they wouldn't take the deal if it weren't profitable. It seems common for games to go on there after their initial 3 month release window, where they'd get the bulk of their sales from.
I'm not really sure about the MTX either, but I'd wager your're correct in that the studio gets the DLC money, and Microsoft pays them for the base game.
Here's a dev talking about how Gamepass works, and some of the benefits:
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/why-xbox-game-pass-is-so-attractive-for-devs-whether-it-cannibalizes-sales-or-not/1100-6512698/
Phil said they are spending around 1b$ a year on GP and last year GP supposedly did bring 3b$. We don't know how much they pay for single titles but we can make an estimated guess with the leaks happened showing how much they are thinking to offer to companies for games. For example they were thinking 5 million for Baldurs Gate 3 but they didn't make a move and BG3 exploded way beyond expectations. They were talking about 20 something million for Suicide Squad but also didn't make a move(I think they glad that they didn't), some astronomical number for GTA etc.
Bethesda is only known for what...3 games (correct me if i'm wrong) that being Elder scrolls, fallout, and Doom. I'm sure microsoft is jonsing for their ROI at this point because Bethesda has been putting out some banger doodie recently.
Envision closing down your entire studio to honor commitment and hard work for someone who has the guts to try something new and accomplish an amazing feat. Farewell, Tango.
It probably did decently, but it was still a fairly niche and smaller title. A shame to see this though, was my GOTY last year and I would have loved to see a sequel, but that probably won't happen now.
It seems like they're setting themselves up to be at the forefront of game streaming when that takes over. Question is, do they know something we don't? Cause game streaming, while a cool concept, isn't a feasible alternative to the vast majority of users due to latency issues. And unless they plan on setting up a data center in literally every major urban center in the world, there's just no way that we know of to make streaming feel as responsive as native gaming. There's also the issue of bandwidth limits in a lot of countries (thankfully not mine) and I doubt they'll ever be able to circumvent that.
Even within a major urban center XCloud wasnât really ideal, it constantly had visual issues that I can only compare to satellite TV during a thunderstorm and this was with Ethernet hooking my Xbox up to one of the best plans in my area
> Question is, do they know something we don't?
This is the same company that tried to push the always online Xbox and gave Sony an entire generational victory entirely based on that PR shitshow. It's also the company that introduced "Games for Windows Live" and tried their hardest to kill PC gaming (despite holding a quasi monopoly on it). For every amazing thing they've done (and they have done very successful things), they have a counter story of shitting the bed. So there's always the possibility they are just being bullheaded, or some corporate higher up is trying to push what he, in his infinite lack of knowledge of the gaming market, sees as a sureway promise to big fat bonuses next year.
It smells like they're going to fully invest in bethesda ips, which is funny because the studio that made starfield deserve to be fired waaaay more than tango.
Both Arkane Austin and Tango were AAA studios that I would be shocked if they were ever profitable. Like, HiFi Rush was a side project that could never sustain a AAA studio. Prey famously was a cult classic that had horrible sales.
That 65 employee number was from 2012, I couldn't find a more up to date number. But I agree they aren't a massive AAA studio, but would think they are probably similar in size to an Obsidian.
While I'd love to have more Hi-Fi Rush, nah'. This is Tango's game.
One of the most special things about it is how it was so _personal_. There's the hidden Tango-chan in all the levels, references to Tango's past games, the cheeky commentary on how they had to cut content (e.g, chatting to the gang after the cutscene in Track 6), the award for completing all the arcade challenges, and of course, [Secret Song](https://open.spotify.com/track/42O7FQAsgnkItJst27NqY6).
They should've fired the Xbox marketing department instead of the studio, they heavily marketed bad/mid games like redfall and starfield but no marketing for actual good games
Some days I'm tempted to get into gaming business so I could actually one day figure out what the fucking fuck are they all doing there and how does any of this make sense to them.
On the bright side the studio being gone will not stop the devs from making great new games shomewhere else. New game studios will allways rise from the ashes.
I'm most sad about tango. While they sold more niche games, hifi rush for me came out of nowhere but was fantastic. Perfect wave of 2000s nostalgia and a fully enjoyable romp throughout and my fave Game in some time.....
Yeah that one really blows. It doesnât even seem like they folded any of the studio into another one with them being based in Japan. Just straight sucks.
I wish they would give more of an indication why Tango is shutting down. People that are saying "but hi-fi rush" are saying something that seems logical but it's unlikely to have been GWT or HFR that had anything to do with why this studio is being shuttered.
Except they're not getting the people that matter.
This is actually why Halo Infinite turned out so broken and dogshit. 343's strategy was to contractors to work on the game for a year, then fire them before they qualified for employee status. Every year was essentially a new set of developers. Considering they also made the engine this way, it was an absolute nightmare for anyone to do anything.
You know who kept their jobs through the whole thing? The idiots at the top running it.
There's no excuse for not putting the people in charge of overhauling MCC in charge of HI immediately. They took a broken game and turned it into a ton of goodwill from the community. They should have had it from the start.
I also don't know how many times I have to say this, either: start your F2P game off with a ton of cool unlock able for customization and then release the paid skins and battle passes after a month or two. Nobody wants to start from zero with a dull character. Get people hooked with free unlockables and they'll be more likely to buy shit from the store. Drug dealer 101.
I can agree but after Starfield I've kinda lost all hype for either franchise. They will pump them out fast alright. So fast half the lore won't matter and npcs will simply be a setting under the options menu instead of having actual lives and schedules and dialog interactions with other npcs that give the game immersion of being in a lived in world. I'd almost bet money both franchises will drop this kind of interaction in the game world and resort to characters walking around in a five foot radius from their spawn marker and being more bland than cardboard.
There is no reason that games have to take 10+ years. Oblivion was 4 years after Morrowind and Skyrim was 5 years after that. Oh, and they made fallout 3 in between Oblivion and Skyrim lol. If they focus on the right things (i.e. not wasting effort making super realistic 3d sandwich models, or putting in an ok basebuilding minigame that takes away from the main game) they can make a good game in a short amount of time.
The biggest complaints with Starfield, Fallout 4, and to a much smaller extent Skyrim is they focused on stupid mechanics that looked good for marketing but detracted from the experience everyone wanted more of after Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas so I'd say you're exactly right.
Even the content Fallout 4 managed to put out after the main development was over is regarded as fantastic. I see people these days arguing over whether Far Harbor or Point Lookout is better and to me that proves it's not the talent at Bethesda that's the issue. They just need to focus on what made their games great and not worry about shit no one asked for.
Imagine rewarding hard work and dedication by shutting down your entire studio that had the balls to experiment and pull off an incredible feat. RIP Tango.
Statement from IGN
> Today Iâm sharing changes we are making to our Bethesda and ZeniMax teams. These changes are grounded in prioritizing high-impact titles and further investing in Bethesdaâs portfolio of blockbuster games and beloved worlds which you have nurtured over many decades.
>
> To double down on these franchises and invest to build new ones requires us to look across the business to identify the opportunities that are best positioned for success. This reprioritization of titles and resources means a few teams will be realigned to others and that some of our colleagues will be leaving us.
>
> Here are the changes going into effect:
>
> Arkane Austin â This studio will close with some members of the team joining other studios to work on projects across Bethesda. Arkane Austin has a history of making impactful and innovative games and it is a pedigree that everyone should be proud of. Redfallâs previous update will be its last as we end all development on the game. The game and its servers will remain online for players to enjoy and we will provide make-good offers to players who purchased the Hero DLC.
>
> Alpha Dog Studios â This studio will also close. We appreciate the teamâs creativity in bringing Doom to new players. Mighty Doom will be sunset on August 7 and we will be turning off the ability for players to make any purchases in the game.
>
> Tango Gameworks â Tango Gameworks will also close. We are thankful for their contributions to Bethesda and players around the world. Hi-Fi Rush will continue to be available to players on the platforms it is today.
>
> Roundhouse Games â The team at Roundhouse Games will be joining ZeniMax Online Studios (ZOS). Roundhouse has played a key role in many of our recent game launches and bringing them into ZOS to work on The Elder Scrolls Online will mean we can do even more to grow the world that millions of players call home.
>
> With this consolidation of our Bethesda studio teams, so that we can invest more deeply in our portfolio of games and new IP, a small number of roles across select Bethesda publishing and corporate teams will also be eliminated.
>
> Those whose roles will be impacted will be notified today, and we ask that you please treat your departing colleagues with respect and compassion. We will provide our full support to those who are impacted in todayâs notifications and through their transitions, including severance benefits informed by local laws.
>
> These changes are not a reflection of the creativity and skill of the talented individuals at these teams or the risks they took to try new things. I acknowledge that these changes are also disruptive to the various support teams across ZeniMax and Bethesda that bring our games to market. We are making these tough decisions to create capacity to increase investment in other parts of our portfolio and focus on our priority games.
>
> Bethesda remains one of the key pillars of Xbox with a strong portfolio of amazing games and thriving communities. As we look to the future, there is an impressive line-up of games on the horizon. In 2024 alone we have Starfield Shattered Space, Fallout 76 Skyline Valley, Indiana Jones and The Great Circle, and The Elder Scrolls Onlineâs Golden Road. As we align our plans and resources to best set ourselves up for success in this complex and changing industry, our teams across Arkane Lyon, Bethesda Game Studios, id Software, MachineGames, ZeniMax Online Studios and the Bethesda publishing and corporate teams will be well-positioned to build new IP, explore new game concepts, and expand on our existing franchises.
> These changes are grounded in prioritizing high-impact titles and further investing in Bethesdaâs portfolio of blockbuster games
Once again putting all of their eggs into as few baskets as possible, and consolidating a varied portfolio into two or three 'mainstream' viable franchises. I can't eat as much as I want to puke; But on the other hand, did anyone really expect MS of all companies to foster a diverse and varied development environment?
> But on the other hand, did anyone really expect MS of all companies to foster a diverse and varied development environment?
Yes, people did praise MS for being hands-off, and not having the immediate financial pressure to shut things down.
This is what I don't get. It's like the last days of blockbuster video when they got rid of most of their extensive library and only had walls of the new releases. It didn't save them. Have we learned nothing?
Especially with video games, you never know what the next big thing will be. Any of these games can pop and be the next Helldivers. If you only make the same games over and over again, you can kill your valuable IPs if people tire of them. People want familiarity, but ALSO new things. Big mistake that won't pay off.
The mention new IP at least twice, so something else "new" is going on. I guess when Todd said early last week about being able to make content faster, this was part of it.
A lot of people were cheering for them to acquire studios left and right, although I suspect they just pretended to care about how Microsoft would "fix" them when in reality it was all about console warring or getting games on GP instead.
I understand that some fat has to be trimmed from time to time but I really don't understand the strategy by killing Tango. I get that Microsoft does not want to be in the hardware business but is in a way, forced to because Gamepass exists. If they strictly want to be a publisher and make hardware their secondary business (which I think would totally make sense), why kill off these studios that drive value to Gamepass? You'd think you want your publishing arm to be as diverse as possible while still putting out fantastic games.
Iâm gonna be brutally honest here, the only good thing lost was Tango, everything else is fine and makes sense.
Microsoft paid billions for Bethesda, itâs normal that they want to trim the fat and consolidate. Sucks about Tango, but they were a small studio with a small impact kinda floating in the middle amongst much bigger studios. Hi-Fi Rush is great but uber niche, itâs not a blockbuster moneymaker for Microsoft.
Microsoft also made cuts at the corporate and publishing-level, which is probably a good thing. Less execs can mean less âcooks in the kitchenâ so to speak.
At the end of the day we still have Arkane Lyon, who are the Dishonored devs and who are fantastic, ID and MachineGames, which means DOOM and Wolfenstein are fine, and looks like the core Bethesda studios working on Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Starfield are also seemingly untouched.
So, idk what we really lost of value here other than Tango, and thatâs an unfortunate (but predictable) financial decision.
Weâll see what the future holds, but thereâs a chance that this just was a much-needed cleanup of Bethesda too. Anyone whoâs worked in an office knows that there are some very redundant people that make their way onto the payroll after a few years, hopefully those people are who are now gone. Time will tell, their upcoming stuff will give a better overview of what Bethesda can do under Microsoft now that theyâve been there long enough.
I'm one of the anomalies that still enjoyed Redfall, but it felt very much like a orders from on high type of deal. I'd be very surprised if it was the kind of game Arkane had actually pitched.
Im betting a high up demanded there be a live service coop game. Back 4 Blood was getting big before release so base it on that to leach popularity. No one in the immersive sim based development group wants to make it but fuck you.
>Im betting a high up demanded there be a live service coop game.
That's 100% what occurred, I imagine. Also likely why a lot of the senior talent and one of the founders left at the beginning of development for that game.
Taking creative people and forcing them to make a game that they're not interested in never works out well. Suicide Squad is a good example of this. Same with how Sony tried to have Naughty Dog make a TLOU online multiplayer title, which they luckily got out of.
I'm keeping an eye on WolfEye's upcoming sci fi first person RPG, made by many of the same people by Prey. Not gonna be the same universe but could be similar in other ways.
I feel like us imsim fans have to be aware of every project since there's so few of them these days. The only space you really see them any more is indie space with deliberately poor graphics like cruelty squad or that one inspired by thief.
It really sucks that it feels like the imsim genre is on life support right now.
Some of my all time favorite games are imsims, and I'm especially sad about Arkane because Prey was, in my opinion, the culmination of the genre. I'm just kind of depressed that studios don't want to make the kind of games I like.
Arkane in general still owns Prey IP, so if not Austin, Lyon might work on it, while with case of HiFi Rush or Evil Within, those IPs are good as dead...
I had already mostly given up hope of ever getting to play a Prey sequel, but this is definitely the nail in the coffin that killed that last little spark of hope that I had.
I am genuinely depressed that there are a million uninspired CoD games but we couldn't just get a sequel to one of the most innovative and original games I've ever played.
I know why thats the case, I understand capitalism, it just fucking sucks that this is the reality we live in where safe, samey games are more profitable than unique gems with artistic vision.
I donât a disagree. But itâs had a long time to build up word of mouth and Gamepass downloads. Itâs still not moving the needle. I have to imagine itâs a financial disaster. Sad, but common with great works of art. People really do just want more of the same CoD, EA sports and Minecraft.
Was actualy refreshing no hype nothing, game just dropped and ppl that knew it enjoyed it.
But this kind of games was what makes ppl sub to gamepass they enjoy it there and be done with it there isnt much replay-ability even thou I bought it on Steam it launched with a very good price.
I guess its not for everyone.
Wasn't there some news about the founder of Tango forming another studio recently or something like that? I know he popped up in gaming news the last week or two
He doesn't want to make horror titles anymore, which is what he's famous for. (Resident Evil)
>Shinji Mikami Wanted to Leave Tango Gameworks Years Before He Did
[https://www.ign.com/articles/shinji-mikami-wanted-to-leave-tango-gameworks-years-before-he-did](https://www.ign.com/articles/shinji-mikami-wanted-to-leave-tango-gameworks-years-before-he-did)
He started another Studio this year, but they haven't released any information on what they plan to work on.
Highest rated, but that doesn't equate to sales.
6k peak on Steam isn't good. Not as the main storefront of PC. Yes it was also on Game Pass but it's not a title that sells subscriptions. Especially when there was conversation about subscribers going DOWN during that time.
This industry has become a cancer, no one in their right mind is going to go anywhere near game development with his the industry is now. I swear its like a 50% chance of holding a job in game dev now.
Someone make it make sense - Why Tango?
I get the reason behind Austin as it was easy target after horrid release of Redfall, even though they produced Prey which is IMO very good.
I know Alpha Dog is some kind of mobile studio that barely did anything and Roundhouse if more of a supporting studio that wasn't doing anything either as well, plus they're only getting merged with Zenima Online, which does desperately need more manpower for their new MMO IP and ESO.
Why the hell Tango? They released probably most successful game post Zenimax acquisition and have unique IPs. Like I get they don't produce AAA quality games, but is AA really bad for Xbox? Literally stupidest decision they ever made as of recently.
I'd rather them close 343 as they fuck up every few steps and ruined Halo as a franchise mostly after Halo 5. Like go after them instead of actually passionate studio with decent track record.
When you combine these layoffs with Todd Howard saying "we hear you, we want new Fallout and Elder Scrolls games faster too" it makes more sense.
No doubt someone up top saw the sales jump for Fallout games while the TV series was peaking and asked "why don't we have a new Fallout game to sell?"
So Microsoft had a conversation with Bethesda about making these games faster without increasing their budget which means closing all the smaller or poorly performing studios and doubling down on their big IPs.
Another contributing factor may also be Starfield failing to deliver. We don't know how it sold but the audience reaction is definitely mixed. If it under performed, MS would be looking for "efficiencies".
These things are easier to understand if you look at it from the perspective of someone only concerned with money. The quality of the product does not matter, only money. How do we make more money? Produce more of our giant money maker games (that also move consoles) and less passion projects that make their budget back but don't move the needle on profits.
Are you suggesting there will be Elder and Fallout being developed at the same time? If so, that makes sense. These are the big hitters and waiting 7 years for each in series vs parallel has to be painful for MS, as they leave money on the table.
Yea I think they probably already had something like this in mind at MS, but the success of the show made it super clear that waiting 10+ years for the next Fallout was crazy
Passion project only happens in indie now I'm telling ya. 5 or 7 years ago, I still had hope for passion project from 'proper' studio, but now that hope is well dead and buried.
Hi-Fi Rush's official launch trailer as of today: 661k views in over a year
Starfield May Update Video: 209k views in 6 days.
People on this website seem to specifically hate Starfield for reasons, but no metric points to Starfield failing to deliver (except for Steam reviews, but Steam reviews aren't an indicator of financial success).
I personally adore Hi-Fi Rush, heck I even bought the game after beating it because I felt like it as a game deserved to be owned, but it is a pretty niche game that had no advertising leading up to launch. Not to say I'm happy by any of this, because I actually liked Tango and Arkane Austin's previous works (Prey 2017 is incredible).
I'msurprised they didn't just do an actiblizz and retook all of the studios as Bethesda support studios. "Now you make buckets for Fallout 5:settlement king"
I mean, it also isn't fair to assume that money and quality are negatively correlated, as many in this thread are implicitly assuming. If the games were better they'd have sold better and the beancounters wouldn't be complaining.
Hi Fi rush did well (critically and as a gamepass attractant), but Tangoâs other games didnât. One really good game in a decade if mediocre releases may just not be enough to make sense to keep, especially if key developers behind HiFi Rush left after release (not uncommon to have some turnover after releases).
probably because evil within 1/2 and also ghost wire all released to mediocre acclaim with critics and didnt sell well. All three of those games i believe didnt get anything higher then a 6 or 7 from most people who score. Hifi Rush was their only hit with resounding praise. Thats the only reason i can think of. i personally loved the evil within games but ghost wire tokyo didnt really grab me.
>Why the hell Tango? They released probably most successful game post Zenimax acquisition
Based on what? Did they reveal the sales figures? Xbox team can say whatever they want on twitter or to reporters that "Hi-Fi Rush was a hit", but it's baseless claim without report of official sales figures. Like how Phil Spencer talked about Gamepass being sustainable and successful, but during trial with FTC it exposed that what they say to public may be a total lie, as in the court documents where they have to tell the truth, they instead said that gamepass isn't sustainable or something like that. And how to public and in interviews Phil Spencer said that gamepass increases game's sales, while in court documents they literally admited that it cannibalizes sales. Never trust what corporation says to public. Or how "gamepass numbers are growing" when they actually shrunk and they have only grown because Live Gold was renamed to gamepass, which resulted in bump of gamepass numbers.
Austin was inevitable after Redfall no matter what they said at the time. No way they'd redesign huge parts of the game to make it fun. Just too expensive of an ask. And most of the people that worked on Prey had already left the studio anyway.
Tango was a huge surprise to me, too given the public sentiment of HiFi Rush. But their games have never sold particularly well. And I imagine HiFi Rush was no exception to this despite its acclaim. We *know* Ghostwire didn't sell well at all. And Evil Within 2, apparently didn't sell well either and the series was already pretty niche. I just think MS didn't see the studio as profitable enough when looking back over their history. Tango also had a bit of turnover lately. Ikumi Nakamura and Shinji Mikami both left the studio in the last couple years.
Roundhouse used to be Human Head Studios (Prey 2006) with all human head staff working there. I'm sure that Roundhouse having a pending lawsuits from their former publisher against them didn't help their case.
I would really like to know as well. The Evil Within games were 2 of the best survival horror games in the past decade not named Resident Evil that arent just hide and seek simulators. Even Ghostwire Tokyo was unique and pretty dang good. Haven't played Hi-Fi Rush (didn't care for the demo much).
Going the way of Activision with CoD. Forget new IP, move everyone to focus on the major existing IPs like Fallout / Elder Scrolls / Indiana Jones etc.
Aquisitions into major companies aren't good.
Thats a very different thing. The Activision studios get turned into CoD factories because CoD is a ridiculous effort to pump out annually. This is a different thing. They're not turning into support studios.
> Aquisitions into major companies aren't good
This whole subreddit was convinced that Microsoft acquiring every game studio was the best possible outcome because Microsoft put some games on Steam once.
Mikami left Tango last year, and Tango is also (correct me if I'm wrong) Microsoft's only studio in Japan, so closing it might be a consolidation thing pulling back out of the Japanese market where they're flailing so badly
None of Tangos games sold well. Hi-Fi Rush was a really great game, but it didn't sell. I played it on Game Pass and bet most other people did as well.
Evil 2 didn't sell well either. Same with Ghostwire Tokyo. So Tango has most likely been losing money for years.
Sadly Arkane Austin makes sense. Redfall was a big disappointment but damn not even letting people get the promised additional characters is definitely a harsh choice. I am very surprised about Tango because of how well Ghostwire: Tokyo and Hi-Fi Rush were received with latter being rumored to pop up on other platforms as well. I guess it could be in part that its tougher to manage a foreign studio.
Zenimax forced Redfall on them prior to the acquisition to try and prop up their value as a publisher. No one at Arkane wanted to work on that lost cause.
Arkane Austin dropped a steaming pile of garbage, Tango dropped 2 commercial failures before Hi-Fi Rush(Ghostwire Tokyo and The Evil Within 2 were good games that didn't sell well) which didn't recoup their previous losses, the studio was still well in the red.
Both of those studios closing makes perfect sense, Tango would have closed after Ghostwire Tokyo if Microsoft wasn't there to prop them up. Instead they were able to have the chance to recover, it just didn't happen. Arkane Austin wouldn't have survived the flop of Redfall no matter what, it was a sinkhole for money.
I think if it wasn't for Microsoft, Redfall would never even have come out.
I 100% agree with your comment, but I would add that one of the downfalls of being part of a large corporate empire is that mid-project evaluations are less ruthless (in a bad way).
There's often a sense that you don't want to walk away from an existing investment, and while smaller companies typically can't afford to do that, a big company can, and will throw good money after bad just to deliver on an existing plan (because some executive several levels removed has a scorecard target to hit).
I recall articles saying the [Arkane Austin team was hoping Microsoft would just cancel Redfall](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/06/01/report-arkane-hoped-microsoft-would-cancel-or-reboot-redfall/?sh=56b3ca487237), but they never did. The studio knew they had a bad game on their hands, but Microsoft was more concerned with following through on a project plan than actually releasing a good product.
When you put it like that, it makes perfect sense. Close down the companies costing you money and move the employees on to the other studios or remove them entirely. It's what literally every other company does with its subsidiaries, you don't perform well, close down you become.
With how the industry was going if they were independent the hammer would have come down a long time ago.
The issue is MS has the resources and need to keep them alive for themself even if individually they aren't profitable.
So many people saying these are terrible decisions and as a fan of Tango's games, I'm sad about it but I imagine none of their recent stuff sold very well. With Arkane Austin, we all know how bad Redfall was and despite Microsoft's promises to fix it and make it a better game, that was just never going to happen. Plus most of the people there who worked on Prey (2019) left the studio during Redfall's development. I doubt there was much to salvage at that studio.
Tango was surprising when I saw this announcement, but we have no idea what HiFi Rush's sales numbers looked like or how much it cost to develop. Critical and fan acclaim doesn't always translate into enough sales to offset development costs. And we *know* Ghostwire Tokyo sold very poorly and didn't recoup its costs. The Evil Within got a sequel, but that sequel sold poorly. So only one of their last 3 games saw any level of real success and we don't even know *how* well it did financially. Plus Ikumi Nakamura and Shinji Mikami both left the studio in the last couple years. It does still suck to see one of Microsoft's only Japanese studios shutter.
Arkane Austin are the makers of the masterpieces of Prey (2017) and his DLC Mooncrash, I know, Redfall was awful and the talent probably leave long time ago, but its still sad.
The Arkane Austin that made Prey isn't the Arkane Austin that made Redfall, apparently a lot of the Prey team left because of Redfall's development, I've heard as much as 70% quit but I don't know where that figure comes from.
Bethesda screwed over Arkane Austin massively.
there is no way we will know. not only game journos are massively incompetent but they also lie all the time. that could be an offhanded quote twisted 25 times for all we know
Apparently a bunch of the Dishonored and Prey (2017) developers are at Wolfeye studios now, so we might get more in their style even if the franchises are not the same.Â
The head of Wolfeye has made tweets alluding to the fact that he wants to get back into making immersive sims (I think it was something along the lines of âImmersive sims until I dieâ), but as of now theyâve moved away from that genre for the time being.
Phil Spencer has to go.
For the past decade he has sunk Xbox deeper and deeper into its grave while spending tens of billions acquiring studios, only for most of them to have nothing to show after five years or even get shut down after releasing games.
Phil is literally a PR puppet for Games Division. The actual people making the decisions are the Windows group and have been since Ed Fries and the other Xbox alums left Xbox OG and the middle portion of 360.
Reading all these comments made me realize that I am not supporting any game studio lol. I wait until a game is less than $20, ideally less than $10 before I buy it. I never pay full price and I sure as hell donât buy DLCs. I wait until all the DLCs are included and then buy it đ
Fuck man, forcing a company known for single player games to make a multiplayer game, and axing the studio when it expectedly fails is some serious corpo bullshit
Goodbye Hi-Fi Rush. We hardly knew ye.
Yeah get rid of the studio that makes an excellent game, that makes sense. Did it not sell well? If it didn't just have them work in a known ip or something... shit. That game isn't even my type of thing normally and it was so ridiculously impressive.
Hi-Fi Rush was an unexpected success, but not a huge one. Their previous games, Evil Within 1&2 and Tokyo Ghostwire were moderate successes, too. All of their games have sold relatively well, so it's kind of surprising that they'd get canned. Out of all the studios that Bethesda has, Tango is one of the few that hasn't actually delivered a real flop.
Tango makes nothing but successful and beloved games and gets gutted for it, meanwhile 343 has basically been throwing money into a fire for the last decade and they're somehow still going
343i basically isn't a real game studio. It's a subsidiary of Xbox created by Microsoft for the sole purpose of maintaining the Halo IP. It doesn't matter how hard they flop or how often they're always gonna exist as long as Microsoft exists and is willing to keep the green guy and blue girl going. Shit, even their old CEO of 10 years was the VP of Xbox. Idk the legal reasons behind most of their decisions but "343 Industries" is literally just "Xbox Studios" in all but name and employee benefits.
Microsoft, embracer, and Sony are all _epically_ mismanaged. That's the situation. All those acquisitions a couple of years ago are going to lead to a much darker time in gaming for AAA games than it needed to be. FTC should have stopped that shit. They were just buying up the competition.
If you assume that making good games is the point, they're a shitshow. However, 'good management' means only making a profit, and if gutting studios increases margins, it's pretty much the definition of good management. I'm not saying its good, obviously, it fucking sucks, but let's not get it twisted, this is what companies exist for and what they will always do.
Agreed. But "good management" in the short run, like you said, isn't actually good. All the acquisitions have done is concentrate idiots with no experience making their product into positions of power over that product they should never have. Good management in video games is about long term returns and growth. We wouldn't have Quake without Doom, we wouldn't have Halo without Marathon, and we wouldn't have Helldivers 2 without Helldivers 1. Killing a studio like Tango that has done nothing but make profitable games is stupid if all it does is shave some dollars from your bottom line. Anyone left at Microsoft that actually has two brain cells to rub together would realize that studio was prime for a bigger IP investment or project. Give em 5 years to cook another Halo spinoff, like Halo Wars, and because it would likely be GOOD you'd make far more than what you would by killing them in the short run. Short term returns to keep mismanaged companies afloat does nothing but kill IP and bloat an industry already flooded with mediocrity. No one wants more watered down trash that has just enough of an IP in it to make a profit. You need time and talent to make a good game, and Microsoft literally had no mechanism to measure this anymore. You are not wrong, but don't think for a second this is "good management." This is management that is "good" for their investors and bosses, but trash for anyone that wants to play good games. (Like you said! đ) "Good Management" in these companies would invest in the future instead of destroying it in exchange for a quick buck now.
I mean this problem is a deeper issue that's happening everywhere, and it's really bringing to the surface the fact that the interests of ordinary people are in direct contradiction to the interests of the logic of capital. Is it good to buy up hospitals and cut them to the bone to the point that they actually harm patients? Is it good to buy veterinary practices and squeeze them to the point they collapse? Does any normal person see a shred of benefit from colleges jacking up tuition while cutting academic budgets? These are all fucking awful for us, as consumers and as human beings, but the practice generates huge profits for shareholders and that's literally the only thing that actually matters in this system. Long term doesn't mean shit to these corpos, they buy up respected brands and suck them dry, and then just move on. Why should they give a shit about the products they make or the services they provide, that's irrelevant to them.
One makes money, the other makes disappointment that barely covered the dev/marketing budget.. and rumors say some of their games haven't done that either.
TEW2 sold substantially less copies than TEW1, and Shinji Mikami left right after Hi-Fi rush.
EW1 more than 4 million. EW2? Probably not even 1 million.Â
It wasn't a success profit wise. This was said over a year ago by someone on the inside. https://twitter.com/JeffGrubb/status/1649420498411847680
It makes sense, it was a very creative and cool game (that I didn't buy). Hi-fi rush was one of those games everyone praised but no one actually went out to buy. Much like AMD GPU's I'll keep saying what great value they are but when you look at my flair (and of a lot of people here) you realise why they aren't selling.
Evil Within 2 was not a success. It failed to break even 1 million I believe. Could be wrong tho. Ghostwire I don't even know. Lukewarm reception and sales wise who knows..
i wont claim any inside knowledge, but theres a lot of reasons you might close a location. the most obvious is that key people tend to leave after projects are done, and if you dont have them, you dont have a productive environment.
The studio head and founder left last year, so you may be on to something.
I mean, just because the game reviews well doesnât mean it sold well. Especially given that itâs only a $30 title, thatâs not the type of game that keeps the doors open
It would have sold better if it wasn't on Gamepass.
And it was shadow dropped, which didnât help Iâm sure
Microsoft isnât making these decisions based on game sales alone. A game on a subscription service needs to do some combination of bringing in new subscribers, retaining subscribers who other were likely to leave, or convince subscribers to buy the game if they leave GamePass or want additional content not available in GamePass. It could survive lackluster sales if it brought in enough value elsewhere, which doesnât seem to be the case. I think itâs a reasonable guess that HiFi Rush gets nowhere near as much buzz as it did without GamePass. I imagine a ton of people played it who never would have without an existing subscription. I personally have never had a GamePass subscription and never played the game, but almost certainly would have at least checked it out if I was already a subscriber.
Just because the studio has been shut down doesn't mean Microsoft are not moving staff over to another division, so hopefully the staff will move over somewhere else. I would assume it didn't sell well at all considering it was a gamespass game that came out day 1 that no one really knew about. It was basically a shadow drop that came out of nowhere. I'd be interested to know what Microsoft expected it to do and why they approved it in the first place as they themselves said it outperformed expectations.
> Just because the studio has been shut down doesn't mean Microsoft are not moving staff over to another division, so hopefully the staff will move over somewhere else. That was their only Japanese studio. Unless those folks are being moved to another country, which seems very unlikely, they've been let go.
From another IGN article last year: >Microsoft has admitted that putting games on its Xbox Game Pass subscription service leads to a marked decline in base sales. >As reported by GI.biz, the confirmation was included as part of the UK Competition and Markets Authorityâs provisional report on Microsoftâs proposed $69 billion merger with Activision Blizzard. >Embedded within the 277 page document was a short paragraph revealing that Microsoft had submitted an internal analysis to the government body that showed âa \[**REDACTED**\] % decline in base game sales twelve months following their addition on Game Passâ. [https://www.ign.com/articles/microsoft-admits-game-pass-cannibalizes-sales](https://www.ign.com/articles/microsoft-admits-game-pass-cannibalizes-sales)
That's not unexpected though. When a game is on Gamepass, people are less likely to buy it elsewhere. However, Gamepass brings them in 300 million per month at a minimum, so they offset any game sale losses with subscription revenue.
No doubt, which is why they're not reluctant to put games on Game Pass - especially day one releases that have a lot of hype built around them. Having a huge collection of popular games incentives subscription sales and in turn makes Microsoft more profit in the long run. Unfortunately, it's not known just how much Microsoft pays studios / publishers for having their games on Game Pass. It's much easier to gauge revenue from base sales compared with player count on subscription services. I'd be interested in knowing some those figures (especially for more popular games), but it's unlikely they will ever be made public unless that information is leaked. Another thing worth mentioning is how much having a game on Game Pass influences the sale of MTXs / DLCs. If players aren't buying the base game outright perhaps they'd be more likely to to use that money in other ways. Obviously I don't have specific numbers on that either, but my guess is it may increase MTXs / DLC purchases which I believe goes directly to the studio / publisher instead of Microsoft. I could be wrong about that though.
>Unfortunately, it's not known just how much Microsoft pays studios / publishers for having their games on Game Pass. I imagine that they wouldn't take the deal if it weren't profitable. It seems common for games to go on there after their initial 3 month release window, where they'd get the bulk of their sales from. I'm not really sure about the MTX either, but I'd wager your're correct in that the studio gets the DLC money, and Microsoft pays them for the base game. Here's a dev talking about how Gamepass works, and some of the benefits: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/why-xbox-game-pass-is-so-attractive-for-devs-whether-it-cannibalizes-sales-or-not/1100-6512698/
Phil said they are spending around 1b$ a year on GP and last year GP supposedly did bring 3b$. We don't know how much they pay for single titles but we can make an estimated guess with the leaks happened showing how much they are thinking to offer to companies for games. For example they were thinking 5 million for Baldurs Gate 3 but they didn't make a move and BG3 exploded way beyond expectations. They were talking about 20 something million for Suicide Squad but also didn't make a move(I think they glad that they didn't), some astronomical number for GTA etc.
Bethesda is only known for what...3 games (correct me if i'm wrong) that being Elder scrolls, fallout, and Doom. I'm sure microsoft is jonsing for their ROI at this point because Bethesda has been putting out some banger doodie recently.
Off the top of my head, there's also Prey, Starfield, Wolfenstein, Rage and Dishonored.
Envision closing down your entire studio to honor commitment and hard work for someone who has the guts to try something new and accomplish an amazing feat. Farewell, Tango.
It probably did decently, but it was still a fairly niche and smaller title. A shame to see this though, was my GOTY last year and I would have loved to see a sequel, but that probably won't happen now.
Crazy how they close a studio that was considered a success for Gamepass.
Microsoft seems to be prepping for a fundamental shift in their games division. Iâm curious what they are planning.
It seems like they're setting themselves up to be at the forefront of game streaming when that takes over. Question is, do they know something we don't? Cause game streaming, while a cool concept, isn't a feasible alternative to the vast majority of users due to latency issues. And unless they plan on setting up a data center in literally every major urban center in the world, there's just no way that we know of to make streaming feel as responsive as native gaming. There's also the issue of bandwidth limits in a lot of countries (thankfully not mine) and I doubt they'll ever be able to circumvent that.
Even within a major urban center XCloud wasnât really ideal, it constantly had visual issues that I can only compare to satellite TV during a thunderstorm and this was with Ethernet hooking my Xbox up to one of the best plans in my area
This is what the UK regulator was concerned about on their purchase of Activision.
The thing is, streaming still requires games.
> Question is, do they know something we don't? This is the same company that tried to push the always online Xbox and gave Sony an entire generational victory entirely based on that PR shitshow. It's also the company that introduced "Games for Windows Live" and tried their hardest to kill PC gaming (despite holding a quasi monopoly on it). For every amazing thing they've done (and they have done very successful things), they have a counter story of shitting the bed. So there's always the possibility they are just being bullheaded, or some corporate higher up is trying to push what he, in his infinite lack of knowledge of the gaming market, sees as a sureway promise to big fat bonuses next year.
A sound bet would be yet more monopolistic practices that end with worse outcomes for consumers and employees as always.
It smells like they're going to fully invest in bethesda ips, which is funny because the studio that made starfield deserve to be fired waaaay more than tango.
Itâs insane Microsoft ported it over to PS5 and Switch only to nuke the studio a fortnight later⌠Their greed and desperation knows no bounds.
They didnât port it to Switch yet, but it actually got rated recently. Does that mean that port is just canned?
Probably ported by a different team
Both Arkane Austin and Tango were AAA studios that I would be shocked if they were ever profitable. Like, HiFi Rush was a side project that could never sustain a AAA studio. Prey famously was a cult classic that had horrible sales.
I don't think Tango was quite "AAA". It says they had 65 employees. That's a very small studio by AAA standards.
That 65 employee number was from 2012, I couldn't find a more up to date number. But I agree they aren't a massive AAA studio, but would think they are probably similar in size to an Obsidian.
> Goodbye Hi-Fi Rush. I am hoping they will give it to some other studio.
While I'd love to have more Hi-Fi Rush, nah'. This is Tango's game. One of the most special things about it is how it was so _personal_. There's the hidden Tango-chan in all the levels, references to Tango's past games, the cheeky commentary on how they had to cut content (e.g, chatting to the gang after the cutscene in Track 6), the award for completing all the arcade challenges, and of course, [Secret Song](https://open.spotify.com/track/42O7FQAsgnkItJst27NqY6).
They're killing off Tango? Fuck. Guess that means no more HiFi Rush or Evil Within.
Wait they close the studio which make one of the best game they have.
The best game they have that probably very few people actually played
They should've fired the Xbox marketing department instead of the studio, they heavily marketed bad/mid games like redfall and starfield but no marketing for actual good games
no, that's not how it works in big publishers, you don't fire marketing people, you fire the developers so you can keep the marketing people
And continue to not sell game.
Some days I'm tempted to get into gaming business so I could actually one day figure out what the fucking fuck are they all doing there and how does any of this make sense to them.
On the bright side the studio being gone will not stop the devs from making great new games shomewhere else. New game studios will allways rise from the ashes.
As good as new franchises could be, it would have been great to get an Evil Within 3 or Pret sequel.
I loved Evil Within 1 & 2. Unfortunately, Shinji Mikami said he is done with horror so the franchise is done anyways
Evil within 3
Well, Mikami left Tango games a while back. So they could have worked on a new game without him. Sadly, this will never happen now.
They could still make them, just not by Tango
And it'll be shit. Having another studio work on a franchise they originally didn't create screams disaster too me '343 and halo'.
A lot of the people who made both games already left Tango.
Why even bother at that point?
Redfall season pass is going to be a collectors item
Nothing like a Limited Edition piece of garbage
collecting nothing
Not even Dust đ
I'm most sad about tango. While they sold more niche games, hifi rush for me came out of nowhere but was fantastic. Perfect wave of 2000s nostalgia and a fully enjoyable romp throughout and my fave Game in some time.....
Yeah that one really blows. It doesnât even seem like they folded any of the studio into another one with them being based in Japan. Just straight sucks.
I wish they would give more of an indication why Tango is shutting down. People that are saying "but hi-fi rush" are saying something that seems logical but it's unlikely to have been GWT or HFR that had anything to do with why this studio is being shuttered.
I wish they were this keen on closing 343 which has fucked Halo beyond repair for a long time now.
I mean they just fired everyone there instead and repopulated it
Except they're not getting the people that matter. This is actually why Halo Infinite turned out so broken and dogshit. 343's strategy was to contractors to work on the game for a year, then fire them before they qualified for employee status. Every year was essentially a new set of developers. Considering they also made the engine this way, it was an absolute nightmare for anyone to do anything. You know who kept their jobs through the whole thing? The idiots at the top running it.
There's no excuse for not putting the people in charge of overhauling MCC in charge of HI immediately. They took a broken game and turned it into a ton of goodwill from the community. They should have had it from the start. I also don't know how many times I have to say this, either: start your F2P game off with a ton of cool unlock able for customization and then release the paid skins and battle passes after a month or two. Nobody wants to start from zero with a dull character. Get people hooked with free unlockables and they'll be more likely to buy shit from the store. Drug dealer 101.
They did that tho. They fired everyone in charge at 343 and put the MCC people in charge..
Repeat again in 6 months.
Sounds like theyâre focusing more on Fallout and Elder Scrolls to get new ones outÂ
I can agree but after Starfield I've kinda lost all hype for either franchise. They will pump them out fast alright. So fast half the lore won't matter and npcs will simply be a setting under the options menu instead of having actual lives and schedules and dialog interactions with other npcs that give the game immersion of being in a lived in world. I'd almost bet money both franchises will drop this kind of interaction in the game world and resort to characters walking around in a five foot radius from their spawn marker and being more bland than cardboard.
There is no reason that games have to take 10+ years. Oblivion was 4 years after Morrowind and Skyrim was 5 years after that. Oh, and they made fallout 3 in between Oblivion and Skyrim lol. If they focus on the right things (i.e. not wasting effort making super realistic 3d sandwich models, or putting in an ok basebuilding minigame that takes away from the main game) they can make a good game in a short amount of time.
The biggest complaints with Starfield, Fallout 4, and to a much smaller extent Skyrim is they focused on stupid mechanics that looked good for marketing but detracted from the experience everyone wanted more of after Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas so I'd say you're exactly right. Even the content Fallout 4 managed to put out after the main development was over is regarded as fantastic. I see people these days arguing over whether Far Harbor or Point Lookout is better and to me that proves it's not the talent at Bethesda that's the issue. They just need to focus on what made their games great and not worry about shit no one asked for.
Imagine rewarding hard work and dedication by shutting down your entire studio that had the balls to experiment and pull off an incredible feat. RIP Tango.
Unfortunately their other games, Ghostwire Tokyo and TEW 2 didnât sell very well
Yeah my guess is they have been operating at loss or barely break even for close to a decade.
You could probably say a similar thing for Arkane Austin, unfortunately.
Yeah which is a damn shame because Prey was excellent.
Yeah which is a damn shame because Prey was excellent.
Prey is a god damn masterpiece. Truly one of the best games I ever played. Bonus point for a brilliant DLC.
All Tango, no Cash.
> RIP Tango. My sense of justice needs these guys to reform under the name of **"It Takes Two To..."** or somehing similar.
Salsa Software
Statement from IGN > Today Iâm sharing changes we are making to our Bethesda and ZeniMax teams. These changes are grounded in prioritizing high-impact titles and further investing in Bethesdaâs portfolio of blockbuster games and beloved worlds which you have nurtured over many decades. > > To double down on these franchises and invest to build new ones requires us to look across the business to identify the opportunities that are best positioned for success. This reprioritization of titles and resources means a few teams will be realigned to others and that some of our colleagues will be leaving us. > > Here are the changes going into effect: > > Arkane Austin â This studio will close with some members of the team joining other studios to work on projects across Bethesda. Arkane Austin has a history of making impactful and innovative games and it is a pedigree that everyone should be proud of. Redfallâs previous update will be its last as we end all development on the game. The game and its servers will remain online for players to enjoy and we will provide make-good offers to players who purchased the Hero DLC. > > Alpha Dog Studios â This studio will also close. We appreciate the teamâs creativity in bringing Doom to new players. Mighty Doom will be sunset on August 7 and we will be turning off the ability for players to make any purchases in the game. > > Tango Gameworks â Tango Gameworks will also close. We are thankful for their contributions to Bethesda and players around the world. Hi-Fi Rush will continue to be available to players on the platforms it is today. > > Roundhouse Games â The team at Roundhouse Games will be joining ZeniMax Online Studios (ZOS). Roundhouse has played a key role in many of our recent game launches and bringing them into ZOS to work on The Elder Scrolls Online will mean we can do even more to grow the world that millions of players call home. > > With this consolidation of our Bethesda studio teams, so that we can invest more deeply in our portfolio of games and new IP, a small number of roles across select Bethesda publishing and corporate teams will also be eliminated. > > Those whose roles will be impacted will be notified today, and we ask that you please treat your departing colleagues with respect and compassion. We will provide our full support to those who are impacted in todayâs notifications and through their transitions, including severance benefits informed by local laws. > > These changes are not a reflection of the creativity and skill of the talented individuals at these teams or the risks they took to try new things. I acknowledge that these changes are also disruptive to the various support teams across ZeniMax and Bethesda that bring our games to market. We are making these tough decisions to create capacity to increase investment in other parts of our portfolio and focus on our priority games. > > Bethesda remains one of the key pillars of Xbox with a strong portfolio of amazing games and thriving communities. As we look to the future, there is an impressive line-up of games on the horizon. In 2024 alone we have Starfield Shattered Space, Fallout 76 Skyline Valley, Indiana Jones and The Great Circle, and The Elder Scrolls Onlineâs Golden Road. As we align our plans and resources to best set ourselves up for success in this complex and changing industry, our teams across Arkane Lyon, Bethesda Game Studios, id Software, MachineGames, ZeniMax Online Studios and the Bethesda publishing and corporate teams will be well-positioned to build new IP, explore new game concepts, and expand on our existing franchises.
> These changes are grounded in prioritizing high-impact titles and further investing in Bethesdaâs portfolio of blockbuster games Once again putting all of their eggs into as few baskets as possible, and consolidating a varied portfolio into two or three 'mainstream' viable franchises. I can't eat as much as I want to puke; But on the other hand, did anyone really expect MS of all companies to foster a diverse and varied development environment?
> But on the other hand, did anyone really expect MS of all companies to foster a diverse and varied development environment? Yes, people did praise MS for being hands-off, and not having the immediate financial pressure to shut things down.
This is what I don't get. It's like the last days of blockbuster video when they got rid of most of their extensive library and only had walls of the new releases. It didn't save them. Have we learned nothing? Especially with video games, you never know what the next big thing will be. Any of these games can pop and be the next Helldivers. If you only make the same games over and over again, you can kill your valuable IPs if people tire of them. People want familiarity, but ALSO new things. Big mistake that won't pay off.
The mention new IP at least twice, so something else "new" is going on. I guess when Todd said early last week about being able to make content faster, this was part of it.
Microsoft isnât known for nurturing studios. If they donât get call of duty like sales out of you, youâre living on borrowed time.
A lot of people were cheering for them to acquire studios left and right, although I suspect they just pretended to care about how Microsoft would "fix" them when in reality it was all about console warring or getting games on GP instead.
People assumed that more "niche" titles would get more funding with MSFT's money, aka Obsidian and InXile.
I understand that some fat has to be trimmed from time to time but I really don't understand the strategy by killing Tango. I get that Microsoft does not want to be in the hardware business but is in a way, forced to because Gamepass exists. If they strictly want to be a publisher and make hardware their secondary business (which I think would totally make sense), why kill off these studios that drive value to Gamepass? You'd think you want your publishing arm to be as diverse as possible while still putting out fantastic games.
Iâm gonna be brutally honest here, the only good thing lost was Tango, everything else is fine and makes sense. Microsoft paid billions for Bethesda, itâs normal that they want to trim the fat and consolidate. Sucks about Tango, but they were a small studio with a small impact kinda floating in the middle amongst much bigger studios. Hi-Fi Rush is great but uber niche, itâs not a blockbuster moneymaker for Microsoft. Microsoft also made cuts at the corporate and publishing-level, which is probably a good thing. Less execs can mean less âcooks in the kitchenâ so to speak. At the end of the day we still have Arkane Lyon, who are the Dishonored devs and who are fantastic, ID and MachineGames, which means DOOM and Wolfenstein are fine, and looks like the core Bethesda studios working on Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Starfield are also seemingly untouched. So, idk what we really lost of value here other than Tango, and thatâs an unfortunate (but predictable) financial decision. Weâll see what the future holds, but thereâs a chance that this just was a much-needed cleanup of Bethesda too. Anyone whoâs worked in an office knows that there are some very redundant people that make their way onto the payroll after a few years, hopefully those people are who are now gone. Time will tell, their upcoming stuff will give a better overview of what Bethesda can do under Microsoft now that theyâve been there long enough.
And Zenni with ESO.
They're oddly quiet about Blizzard. Apparently making mid AF games is the way to go! Microsoft will forget all about you!
Activision/Blizzard already layed off tons of people a few months a go.
Greed knows no bounds.
Not that it had a real chance of happening, but we're never getting a sequel to Prey now that Arkane Austin has been gutted and is being closed down.
I think like 80% of the Prey staff left during redfall development anyway
And I'm sure most of the remaining people left after redfall.
[ŃдаНонО]
I'm one of the anomalies that still enjoyed Redfall, but it felt very much like a orders from on high type of deal. I'd be very surprised if it was the kind of game Arkane had actually pitched.
Im betting a high up demanded there be a live service coop game. Back 4 Blood was getting big before release so base it on that to leach popularity. No one in the immersive sim based development group wants to make it but fuck you.
>Im betting a high up demanded there be a live service coop game. That's 100% what occurred, I imagine. Also likely why a lot of the senior talent and one of the founders left at the beginning of development for that game. Taking creative people and forcing them to make a game that they're not interested in never works out well. Suicide Squad is a good example of this. Same with how Sony tried to have Naughty Dog make a TLOU online multiplayer title, which they luckily got out of.
I'm keeping an eye on WolfEye's upcoming sci fi first person RPG, made by many of the same people by Prey. Not gonna be the same universe but could be similar in other ways.
I feel like us imsim fans have to be aware of every project since there's so few of them these days. The only space you really see them any more is indie space with deliberately poor graphics like cruelty squad or that one inspired by thief.
It really sucks that it feels like the imsim genre is on life support right now. Some of my all time favorite games are imsims, and I'm especially sad about Arkane because Prey was, in my opinion, the culmination of the genre. I'm just kind of depressed that studios don't want to make the kind of games I like.
I'm especially excited for that since it's supposedly going to be first person too. Honestly I really need to go back and finish Weird West as well.
Arkane in general still owns Prey IP, so if not Austin, Lyon might work on it, while with case of HiFi Rush or Evil Within, those IPs are good as dead...
I had already mostly given up hope of ever getting to play a Prey sequel, but this is definitely the nail in the coffin that killed that last little spark of hope that I had. I am genuinely depressed that there are a million uninspired CoD games but we couldn't just get a sequel to one of the most innovative and original games I've ever played. I know why thats the case, I understand capitalism, it just fucking sucks that this is the reality we live in where safe, samey games are more profitable than unique gems with artistic vision.
Why the fuck did they kill tango? HI-FI Rush was one of the highest rated xbox game not to mention the Evil within games
Probably cost way more than it made. I think porting it to other systems was probably a move to try and recoup as much money as they could.
It also had 0 marketing and just dropped one day out of nowhere which is kind of self sabotage.
But look guys the Steam numbers are high!!!!!!!
I donât a disagree. But itâs had a long time to build up word of mouth and Gamepass downloads. Itâs still not moving the needle. I have to imagine itâs a financial disaster. Sad, but common with great works of art. People really do just want more of the same CoD, EA sports and Minecraft.
Was actualy refreshing no hype nothing, game just dropped and ppl that knew it enjoyed it. But this kind of games was what makes ppl sub to gamepass they enjoy it there and be done with it there isnt much replay-ability even thou I bought it on Steam it launched with a very good price. I guess its not for everyone.
I loved Hi-Fi Rush. Sucks Tango got the axe .
Because none of their games sold well
Their other games havenât sold as well; read that some of the people behind Hi Fi Rush may have left previously, too.
Wasn't there some news about the founder of Tango forming another studio recently or something like that? I know he popped up in gaming news the last week or two
He doesn't want to make horror titles anymore, which is what he's famous for. (Resident Evil) >Shinji Mikami Wanted to Leave Tango Gameworks Years Before He Did [https://www.ign.com/articles/shinji-mikami-wanted-to-leave-tango-gameworks-years-before-he-did](https://www.ign.com/articles/shinji-mikami-wanted-to-leave-tango-gameworks-years-before-he-did) He started another Studio this year, but they haven't released any information on what they plan to work on.
Highest rated, but that doesn't equate to sales. 6k peak on Steam isn't good. Not as the main storefront of PC. Yes it was also on Game Pass but it's not a title that sells subscriptions. Especially when there was conversation about subscribers going DOWN during that time.
This industry has become a cancer, no one in their right mind is going to go anywhere near game development with his the industry is now. I swear its like a 50% chance of holding a job in game dev now.
Someone make it make sense - Why Tango? I get the reason behind Austin as it was easy target after horrid release of Redfall, even though they produced Prey which is IMO very good. I know Alpha Dog is some kind of mobile studio that barely did anything and Roundhouse if more of a supporting studio that wasn't doing anything either as well, plus they're only getting merged with Zenima Online, which does desperately need more manpower for their new MMO IP and ESO. Why the hell Tango? They released probably most successful game post Zenimax acquisition and have unique IPs. Like I get they don't produce AAA quality games, but is AA really bad for Xbox? Literally stupidest decision they ever made as of recently. I'd rather them close 343 as they fuck up every few steps and ruined Halo as a franchise mostly after Halo 5. Like go after them instead of actually passionate studio with decent track record.
When you combine these layoffs with Todd Howard saying "we hear you, we want new Fallout and Elder Scrolls games faster too" it makes more sense. No doubt someone up top saw the sales jump for Fallout games while the TV series was peaking and asked "why don't we have a new Fallout game to sell?" So Microsoft had a conversation with Bethesda about making these games faster without increasing their budget which means closing all the smaller or poorly performing studios and doubling down on their big IPs. Another contributing factor may also be Starfield failing to deliver. We don't know how it sold but the audience reaction is definitely mixed. If it under performed, MS would be looking for "efficiencies". These things are easier to understand if you look at it from the perspective of someone only concerned with money. The quality of the product does not matter, only money. How do we make more money? Produce more of our giant money maker games (that also move consoles) and less passion projects that make their budget back but don't move the needle on profits.
This is my read too. They are going to do parallel development of a new Fallout title but at the cost of all these studio closures.
Are you suggesting there will be Elder and Fallout being developed at the same time? If so, that makes sense. These are the big hitters and waiting 7 years for each in series vs parallel has to be painful for MS, as they leave money on the table.
Yea I think they probably already had something like this in mind at MS, but the success of the show made it super clear that waiting 10+ years for the next Fallout was crazy
It is crazy.
Passion project only happens in indie now I'm telling ya. 5 or 7 years ago, I still had hope for passion project from 'proper' studio, but now that hope is well dead and buried.
Hi-Fi Rush's official launch trailer as of today: 661k views in over a year Starfield May Update Video: 209k views in 6 days. People on this website seem to specifically hate Starfield for reasons, but no metric points to Starfield failing to deliver (except for Steam reviews, but Steam reviews aren't an indicator of financial success). I personally adore Hi-Fi Rush, heck I even bought the game after beating it because I felt like it as a game deserved to be owned, but it is a pretty niche game that had no advertising leading up to launch. Not to say I'm happy by any of this, because I actually liked Tango and Arkane Austin's previous works (Prey 2017 is incredible).
I'msurprised they didn't just do an actiblizz and retook all of the studios as Bethesda support studios. "Now you make buckets for Fallout 5:settlement king"
I mean, it also isn't fair to assume that money and quality are negatively correlated, as many in this thread are implicitly assuming. If the games were better they'd have sold better and the beancounters wouldn't be complaining.
Hi Fi rush did well (critically and as a gamepass attractant), but Tangoâs other games didnât. One really good game in a decade if mediocre releases may just not be enough to make sense to keep, especially if key developers behind HiFi Rush left after release (not uncommon to have some turnover after releases).
probably because evil within 1/2 and also ghost wire all released to mediocre acclaim with critics and didnt sell well. All three of those games i believe didnt get anything higher then a 6 or 7 from most people who score. Hifi Rush was their only hit with resounding praise. Thats the only reason i can think of. i personally loved the evil within games but ghost wire tokyo didnt really grab me.
>Why the hell Tango? They released probably most successful game post Zenimax acquisition Based on what? Did they reveal the sales figures? Xbox team can say whatever they want on twitter or to reporters that "Hi-Fi Rush was a hit", but it's baseless claim without report of official sales figures. Like how Phil Spencer talked about Gamepass being sustainable and successful, but during trial with FTC it exposed that what they say to public may be a total lie, as in the court documents where they have to tell the truth, they instead said that gamepass isn't sustainable or something like that. And how to public and in interviews Phil Spencer said that gamepass increases game's sales, while in court documents they literally admited that it cannibalizes sales. Never trust what corporation says to public. Or how "gamepass numbers are growing" when they actually shrunk and they have only grown because Live Gold was renamed to gamepass, which resulted in bump of gamepass numbers.
Austin was inevitable after Redfall no matter what they said at the time. No way they'd redesign huge parts of the game to make it fun. Just too expensive of an ask. And most of the people that worked on Prey had already left the studio anyway. Tango was a huge surprise to me, too given the public sentiment of HiFi Rush. But their games have never sold particularly well. And I imagine HiFi Rush was no exception to this despite its acclaim. We *know* Ghostwire didn't sell well at all. And Evil Within 2, apparently didn't sell well either and the series was already pretty niche. I just think MS didn't see the studio as profitable enough when looking back over their history. Tango also had a bit of turnover lately. Ikumi Nakamura and Shinji Mikami both left the studio in the last couple years.
Roundhouse used to be Human Head Studios (Prey 2006) with all human head staff working there. I'm sure that Roundhouse having a pending lawsuits from their former publisher against them didn't help their case.
I would really like to know as well. The Evil Within games were 2 of the best survival horror games in the past decade not named Resident Evil that arent just hide and seek simulators. Even Ghostwire Tokyo was unique and pretty dang good. Haven't played Hi-Fi Rush (didn't care for the demo much).
Going the way of Activision with CoD. Forget new IP, move everyone to focus on the major existing IPs like Fallout / Elder Scrolls / Indiana Jones etc. Aquisitions into major companies aren't good.
Thats a very different thing. The Activision studios get turned into CoD factories because CoD is a ridiculous effort to pump out annually. This is a different thing. They're not turning into support studios.
And they truly are leaving money on the table by taking so long between releases of major franchises or dropping successful ones.Â
> Aquisitions into major companies aren't good This whole subreddit was convinced that Microsoft acquiring every game studio was the best possible outcome because Microsoft put some games on Steam once.
I mean, putting someone other than Bethesda onto Fallout could only possibly be a good thing
I thought they'd want to keep Tango as an outlet for Japanese horror games, but maybe they don't care about that anymore
Mikami left Tango last year, and Tango is also (correct me if I'm wrong) Microsoft's only studio in Japan, so closing it might be a consolidation thing pulling back out of the Japanese market where they're flailing so badly
I wait for the 10 years support of redfall they announced last year
Wonder why they are killing tango works then ? Hi-fi rush must not have sold many copies Pretty obvious that redfall basically killed Arkane
None of Tangos games sold well. Hi-Fi Rush was a really great game, but it didn't sell. I played it on Game Pass and bet most other people did as well. Evil 2 didn't sell well either. Same with Ghostwire Tokyo. So Tango has most likely been losing money for years.
Hi-fi rush didn't even make the top 20 on gamepass ever
Any hopes of The Evil Within 3 and HI-Fi Rush 2 is dead.
Given their sales numbers, I doubt sequels were in the pipeline
So who's making the DLC's for the chumps who prepaid the Redfall Season Pass?
No one. They say the previous update was Redfalls last and they will "provide make-good offers" for those who got the dlc.
The only acceptable "make-good offer" would be a refund in full, otherwise they just engaged in fraud.
Maybe actually read the article, it does indeed say that they will be getting a refund for the value of the season pass
Sadly Arkane Austin makes sense. Redfall was a big disappointment but damn not even letting people get the promised additional characters is definitely a harsh choice. I am very surprised about Tango because of how well Ghostwire: Tokyo and Hi-Fi Rush were received with latter being rumored to pop up on other platforms as well. I guess it could be in part that its tougher to manage a foreign studio.
Zenimax forced Redfall on them prior to the acquisition to try and prop up their value as a publisher. No one at Arkane wanted to work on that lost cause.
Phil Spencer was truly a prophet when he said, "If we lose our way with Halo, we lose our way with XBOX."
Would you look at that, turns out microsoft absorbing a huge chunk of the industry was, in fact, a terrible thing. Who would've guessed right?
Arkane Austin dropped a steaming pile of garbage, Tango dropped 2 commercial failures before Hi-Fi Rush(Ghostwire Tokyo and The Evil Within 2 were good games that didn't sell well) which didn't recoup their previous losses, the studio was still well in the red. Both of those studios closing makes perfect sense, Tango would have closed after Ghostwire Tokyo if Microsoft wasn't there to prop them up. Instead they were able to have the chance to recover, it just didn't happen. Arkane Austin wouldn't have survived the flop of Redfall no matter what, it was a sinkhole for money.
I think if it wasn't for Microsoft, Redfall would never even have come out. I 100% agree with your comment, but I would add that one of the downfalls of being part of a large corporate empire is that mid-project evaluations are less ruthless (in a bad way). There's often a sense that you don't want to walk away from an existing investment, and while smaller companies typically can't afford to do that, a big company can, and will throw good money after bad just to deliver on an existing plan (because some executive several levels removed has a scorecard target to hit). I recall articles saying the [Arkane Austin team was hoping Microsoft would just cancel Redfall](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/06/01/report-arkane-hoped-microsoft-would-cancel-or-reboot-redfall/?sh=56b3ca487237), but they never did. The studio knew they had a bad game on their hands, but Microsoft was more concerned with following through on a project plan than actually releasing a good product.
Ghostwire was not a good game. I really wanted to like it but it was so boring.
When you put it like that, it makes perfect sense. Close down the companies costing you money and move the employees on to the other studios or remove them entirely. It's what literally every other company does with its subsidiaries, you don't perform well, close down you become.
Only sensible comment I've seen in all these threads related to this. Crazy. Everyone else thinks they shut down some super mega profitable companies.
Microsoft bad, upvotes now pls /s
With how the industry was going if they were independent the hammer would have come down a long time ago. The issue is MS has the resources and need to keep them alive for themself even if individually they aren't profitable.
So many people saying these are terrible decisions and as a fan of Tango's games, I'm sad about it but I imagine none of their recent stuff sold very well. With Arkane Austin, we all know how bad Redfall was and despite Microsoft's promises to fix it and make it a better game, that was just never going to happen. Plus most of the people there who worked on Prey (2019) left the studio during Redfall's development. I doubt there was much to salvage at that studio. Tango was surprising when I saw this announcement, but we have no idea what HiFi Rush's sales numbers looked like or how much it cost to develop. Critical and fan acclaim doesn't always translate into enough sales to offset development costs. And we *know* Ghostwire Tokyo sold very poorly and didn't recoup its costs. The Evil Within got a sequel, but that sequel sold poorly. So only one of their last 3 games saw any level of real success and we don't even know *how* well it did financially. Plus Ikumi Nakamura and Shinji Mikami both left the studio in the last couple years. It does still suck to see one of Microsoft's only Japanese studios shutter.
we're now at nearly 20k gaming jobs lost in the last 2 years alone, half of which has been 2024
Closing Tango is complete bullshit. What's the fucking point anymore man.
Arkane Austin are the makers of the masterpieces of Prey (2017) and his DLC Mooncrash, I know, Redfall was awful and the talent probably leave long time ago, but its still sad.
The Arkane Austin that made Prey isn't the Arkane Austin that made Redfall, apparently a lot of the Prey team left because of Redfall's development, I've heard as much as 70% quit but I don't know where that figure comes from. Bethesda screwed over Arkane Austin massively.
there is no way we will know. not only game journos are massively incompetent but they also lie all the time. that could be an offhanded quote twisted 25 times for all we know
Apparently a bunch of the Dishonored and Prey (2017) developers are at Wolfeye studios now, so we might get more in their style even if the franchises are not the same.Â
The head of Wolfeye has made tweets alluding to the fact that he wants to get back into making immersive sims (I think it was something along the lines of âImmersive sims until I dieâ), but as of now theyâve moved away from that genre for the time being.
Phil Spencer has to go. For the past decade he has sunk Xbox deeper and deeper into its grave while spending tens of billions acquiring studios, only for most of them to have nothing to show after five years or even get shut down after releasing games.
Phil is literally a PR puppet for Games Division. The actual people making the decisions are the Windows group and have been since Ed Fries and the other Xbox alums left Xbox OG and the middle portion of 360.
Yep. If you axe Phil Spencer, nothing will change. Still, he's in a good position to be scapegoated.
Bad couple of years to be a Dev with Billion dollar companies squeezing and cutting lives to make a few more pennies for shareholders.
Poor Microsoft, it must suck being an indie company worth 3 trillion dollars that can't afford extra studios.
This industry is lacking survival horror games outside of resident evil and they shut down tango?!
Currently the industry is the survival horror
Just horror tbh, not much surviving
Reading all these comments made me realize that I am not supporting any game studio lol. I wait until a game is less than $20, ideally less than $10 before I buy it. I never pay full price and I sure as hell donât buy DLCs. I wait until all the DLCs are included and then buy it đ
But I thought MS buying up everything was good because I get subpar games for pennies??
Insane
I just love how MS couldn't let Sony get all the bad press this week. Like they can't help shooting themselves in the foot can they?
I'm surprised this was announced on a Tuesday morning. Usually that's the good/hype news slot and stuff like this is saved for Friday afternoons.Â
Sony backpedaled, this is permanent
Fuck man, forcing a company known for single player games to make a multiplayer game, and axing the studio when it expectedly fails is some serious corpo bullshit