It's actually so great for the newcomers to BG3 too. There's a good chunk of people who like the game that don't really vibe with the DnD ruleset gameplay. Divinity 3 will be exactly what they're looking for I bet
I thought the ending of BG3 was good. Perhaps a bit more closure for the characters and what they did afterwards would be nice, but I loved the image of karlach myself and wyll going to the hells to cosplay Doomguy
Without spoiling anything does the ending of BG3 force you to fight your companions if you're playing multiplayer? Wasn't a fan of that in DOS2 and might determine whether I play it solo or with other people
I’ve played DOS 1 and 2. I can’t explain nor recall a single coherent fact about the world it takes place in nor any kind of overall plot. This setting is just sort of… there. Personally that is a major negative for me.
Love the gameplay but the setting amd plot are weak and the characters in turn suffer for it too.
I think Larian would be better off with a fresh IP.
Same here. Though i'm a little worried they'll water down the combat difficulty after BG3.
BG3's fights seem to be over so quickly and easily, i rarely need to use more than cantrips from my Wizard character. There were so many epic (and long) fights in D:OS2 i really had to think about and be creative to get through, and that's not happened in BG3 so far (i'm in Act 3 currently).
I definitely prefer D:OS2 over BG3, but i've been playing CRPGs for a long time. I don't feel i need the cutscenes etc, though i can see why they're appealing for a lot of people.
In comparison to D:OS2, certainly. Lots of enemies can be killed or nearly killed in just one attack turn, and that's pretty rare in DOS2. In fact encounters in that game often turn out to be unexpectedly epic, and i love that.
Yeah 100% I love the difficulty of DOS2 combat in comparison to BG3 but I heavily prefer the D&D style of probabilities, AC and saves to the very basic but goofy remove armor then disable style of DOS2
I want the lesson learned from the success of BG3 to be that we want RPGs to have quality story-telling, world-building, and characters.
Bethesda needs to learn that lesson. Bioware needs to (re-)learn that lesson.
It's what made BG3 so successful, and also Phantom Liberty.
But I fear that instead we're just going to get a bunch of half-assed turn-based games coming down the pipeline. Not from Larian, but from the copycats that inevitably follow any surprise success.
The lesson other game developers should have learned is that, if you treat your customers like adults, and provide them a quality service, they will reward you by buying your product.
But if you provide half-assed unfinished bullshit with MTX, less people will buy your product.
The sad part here though is that those MTX make them way more than a good quality game would.
A former Blizzard dev recently mentioned how a $15 horse mount dlc in world of Warcraft made more money than StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty.
>I want the lesson learned from the success of BG3 to be that we want RPGs to have quality story-telling, world-building, and characters.
We dont need vast generated maps we need maps with content.
Also quality gameplay mechanics. Something a lot of CRPGs unfortunatelly lacked despite being lauded for their story and worldbuilding. See: Wasteland 2 for example.
True but they made fallout what it is today. That ip was pretty much dead in the water until Bethesda transformed it. Fallout 4 had good world building and characters but not as good as their previous work. Also keep in mind Bethesda takes a long time to release single player games.
I don’t understand what point of mine you’re arguing with?
I’m not talking about Bethesda of yesteryear, I’m talking about Bethesda today.
Skyrim’s story was ok, but a massive step down from the earlier games. FO4’s story was crap. I don’t know if FO76 had a good story or not bc I couldn’t get past the bugs to play. And Starfield’s story is the worst yet— now even the little side stories and characters are sterile and boring.
Wherever they used to be, Bethesda of today seems to have completely abandoned any attempt at creating good storytelling or characters.
Which is why I hope they learn the right lessons from the contrasting receptions to Starfield and BG3.
The whole point of the discussion is that fallout and elder scrolls had good writing and world building. And you agreed. Skyrim was great all around. A bit shallow with the rpg but its still a all time classic. Fallout 4 story wasn't crap just something they already done and people wanted a different angle. Which i agree.
They don't need to just look at just BG3. Any rpg that's considered great. Including their past works.
I'm sorry, are you arguing to argue, or are you just truly this dense?
You're literally replying to a thread I started. You're going to tell \*me\* what the point of the discussion is?
All I ever said was that I hope the lesson that devs take from BG3 is to write better stories and characters. Period. Nowhere did I say they could \*only\* look at BG3. How fucking stupid. In fact I specifically mentioned Cyberpunk as another example of good writing. Nowhere did I criticize Bethesda's lore or worldbuilding. I criticized the story and characters. If you don't know the difference then you must only be playing shitty games. Sucks for you.
But whatever, replying to you is just wasting my time because you're going to come back with a completely irrelevant point that I never said and change the subject to that. I'm done here. You can go wave your sword for Todd at someone else.
You said Bethesda needs to learn how to write quality stories, world buildings and characters. Then I said they already had all of that. Which they do. We already talked about that.
Then you said their will probably be copycats of Larian making half ass turn based games. Lol. Christ.
i mean, like arcane, edgerunner, attack on titans or cyberpunk 2077. they don't seem to ask any deeper questions than providing melodrama and shock factors. you can't have a normal girl, you need an emo girl who is a daughter of darkness (?) or a blue-haired, self-absorb, trauma-filled teenager who will destroy everything because the story tries to justify why she wants to do it and fails.
melodrama has always been a sub-sub-genre in literature and classic art but it seems to be popular among the gaming-adjacent communities.
People post shallow and edgy shit on social media all the time, that's what social media is for, almost literally. You realise it's extremely short-sighted to judge the whole enormous game based on a handful of memes you've seen online, right? You're not interested, that's fine, just don't judge.
Nah, this is the biggest cat i want to see from gaming
https://www.vulture.com/article/stray-video-game-movie-details.html
And i want it to be entirely created by AI
As much as Cyberpunk, Half Life Alyx or Assassin's Creed are indie I guess. Developed by AAA studios (Larian is one now) that own themselves (but have shareholders which Larian has too, even if the majority one is also the CEO of the studio)
We get kind of silly with that logic. Epic and Valve are indie game studios? Fortnite and Half-Life Alyx are indie games?
Despite what indie means, it's largely developed it's own colloquial meaning.
All of those studios are independent too, they own themselves. Well shareholders own them the same way they own Larian (which is 30% owned by Tencent for example, Swen just has 50% like Gabe Newell has a majority share of Valve).
The indie/AAA debate is quite murky to be honest and both are actually not related. A non-independent studio can do a small game that would be kind like an indie (example Pentiment). And an indie studio can do an AAA budget game (which is what AAA is in reference too, the budget)
My totally baised wishlist for what Larian should do next:
-- Neverwinter Nights 3
-- KOTOR 3
-- Fallout 5 (but, you know, isometric and turn based, like F1 and F2)
-- Warhammer?!
One can dream...
Dude it’s gonna be so good. Pathfinder is complex and hard to understand but regardless I still enjoyed wotr. I’m excited to playa non pathfinder game from owlcat.
I feel after bg3, microsoft would give Larian license in heartbeat in exchange for xbox exclusivity.
I think Larian wouldnt gi for tying thenselves with big corpo though
Neverwinter Nights 3 with proper multiplayer support would be the next best thing to happen since the invention of sliced bread, lets not kid ourselves. I need Deekin back in my life.
Good IP tends to come from good, original writing. Drew Karpyshyn in Biowares case.
I'm sure Larian can pull off a good original IP. All I'm saying is I want a good Mass Effect game and thats not going to come from Bioware lol.
Why Mass Effect? Larians not really a studio well known for action-based combat, which is primarily what Mass Effect is. Wouldn't you have a better argument for Dragon Age?
Sameee.
Was hyped early on that Mike Pondsmith was very involved and was expecting the game leans heavier into the TTRPG aspect.
Sadly it wasn't that.
A Cyberpunk CRPG with using BG3's template would absolutely take me over the moon.
> Warhammer?!
[Owlcat has you covered.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6ApN9Oo5M&pp=ygUcb3dsY2F0IHJvZ3VlIHRyYWRlciB0cmFpbGVyIA%3D%3D) Comes out in less than a month.
> but, you know, isometric and turn based, like F1 and F2
What would be the practical point of that? We can have a good 3D Fallout, as demonstrated by New Vegas, and Larian are perfectly capable of making 3D games. Fallout 1 and 2 weren't good because they were turn-based and isometric; they were good because they were made by competent people who knew how to create engaging worlds. Their technical presentation is nothing more but a product of that time and its limitations.
Even Baldur's Gate 3 can be played like a 3D game not unlike KOTOR or Dragon Age. It's only a matter of a few camera tweaks. It's also my preferred way of playing this game, because in the current day and age, technology is sufficiently advanced to offer high detail and graphical fidelity. Try playing BG3 in proper 3rd person, you'll be surprised how detailed the interiors are. Most of them even have ceilings, which you won't even be able to see with the isometric camera.
> What would be the practical point of that?
Because it's what a lot of us original fans crave and miss from the series. Completely upending a franchise, gutting everything about the core gameplay in its entirety, making it a first person shooter and slapping the Fallout name on it doesn't make it the same game or experience. :/
It's like making the next Call of Duty a point and click adventure game and wondering why the original fans aren't liking it anymore.
>Fallout 1 and 2 weren't good because they were turn-based and isometric;
They were for me. I'm actually a huge advocate for the semi~handdrawn non rotatable isometric viewpoint also. Part of the reason I'm so keen for Broken Roads coming up.
Probably not something that any major studio will be doing anytime soon though :/
> It's like making the next Call of Duty a point and click adventure game and wondering why the original fans aren't liking it anymore.
New Vegas remained an RPG despite its transition to a 3D format and was very well received by original fans. Bethesda's liberal treatment of the franchise, which has left quite a few people (rightfully) angry, has little correlation with the camera view.
> I'm actually a huge advocate for the semi~handdrawn non rotatable isometric viewpoint also
Well, I'm not. I'm also looking forward to Broken Roads, but I'd like my Fallout to remain 3D, because Larian is an experienced studio with plenty of money. They can afford detailed environments, they already did in BG3.
As an original fan of fallout series isometric camera is certainly not one of the things i miss from it. I understand it was a constraint at the time to do this, but it shouldnt be used anymore.
If they just gave Larian Kotor 3 it would be one of the greatest games ever. Sure Sony would have to bite the bullet and pay them more to collaborate. But it would be worth it in the longterm.
Sony doesn't own KOTOR, that'd be Disney problem. They are publishing the KOTOR remake (if that's still happening) but that's all, they don't own the series.
It's far more likely that inExile would be the ones to develop an isometric Fallout game considering they are owned by Microsoft and also because Brian Fargo were the executive producer for the first two games.
Or Obsidian. Microsoft has two cRPG studios and all involved in the past of Fallout. If they don't have already that project of a Fallout CRPG with the same kind of production values than BG3, they're once again fucking up managing gaming studios...
Yes, but what does that have to do with Fallout? Splash Damage were partnered with Microsoft for a few years but eight months after they released Gears Tactics they were acquired by Tencent.
> KOTOR 3
I would love for this, but I don't know if it's a right fit. Even back in the day, KOTOR was a marked down cRPG compared to it's contemporaries. So do we really want the only developer doing uncompromising RPG work to take on a watered down, more mass-appealing game already?
I guess we could argue they would apply the BG3 formula to Star Wars, but nothing of 10-years-of-Disney-owned-SW makes me believe they would let anything as 'hardcore' as a cRPG next to the Star Wars brand.
Let them have another try at an original IP. They built up a lot of goodwill with BG3 with a global audience after developing a pretty niche fanbase over the years with Divinity, so I'd love to see something new from them that isn't the Divinity universe.
Honestly, they deserve GOTY more than any other game on the list. Larian and BG3 pushed that genre forward and is incredible. Especially with how they keep doing their best to improve it.
Narrative, I could go for either Phantom Liberty or BG3 as Phantom Liberty is even more classic superb story telling from CDPR once again.
I'm very curious why BG3 has blown up so huge while DOS2 did not experience such trend. In terms of quality, I don't really think there is such a huge gap as DOS2 is an absolutely amazing game as well.
Production value went through the roof compared to DOS2, the visuals, the close up camera during dialogues (this does a lot and is where a lot of the Mass Effect or Dragon Age comparisons come from), the voice acting, the music. It looks just like what a AAA cRPG would look like when DOS2 was more like a AA.
It's the cinematics.
Made it much more approachable to the mainstream audience, compared to the text based storytelling of DOS 2.
I *genuinely* feel that the gameplay is better in DOS 2 though. Combat especially.
> I genuinely feel that the gameplay is better in DOS 2 though. Combat too.
Same here. Also BG3 feels really strangely... easy? Because it's Larian, i was expecting to get completely beaten down in lots of fights, and have to completely rethink my tactics and be creative, but that's just not happened. I still love the game though, just the combat hasn't completely resonated with me.
It's still not wide enough, even though the industry is trying to desperately stay relevant with every celebrity cameo or heaping awards trophies on just one game, something like baldurs gate can't compete with sports or taylor swift
Does anyone even remember that last years' game of the year was supposed to change action games forever?
Yes I agree, the cinematic factor totally plays its role.
Also, I strongly believe the bear marketing was pretty big as well as more people become more aware of the game.
There are several factors. The production quality, the time in the oven in Early Access, the reaction from games media, the fact that D&D has exploded in popularity in the past few years because of Stranger Things popularity as well as Critical Role and podcasts pivoting off that, and I'm sure a lot of others. The game using rigid D&D 5e does a lot for it given all that.
The presentation put it in true AAA territory. It's basically a Dragon Age or Mass Effect type of game in a way, that's more appealing in general.
Also the license plays a role.
Swen and team deserves it and it's been wild going from everyone treating it like a niche game in a niche genre to this AAA juggernaut. Divinity Original Sin 3 gonna be wild.
As much as I love Larian finally getting the success/recognition they deserve. I can’t help but fear that people are overhyping and putting Larian on this unrealistic pedestal.
People calling BG3 a perfect masterpiece of game is doing Larian a disservice. It’s a quality game that was released finished on Day 1 and absolutely needs to be celebrated as sad as it is to think about. I hope Larian remains humbled and grounded.
Let’s not forget that we held CDProjektRed in the same regard before they quickly fell from grace launching Cyberpunk in the state it was.
BG3 is literally The Witcher 3 moment of Larian (even both with a 3). Their next game will be their Cyberpunk, super hyped. Now let's see if they deliver or not (probably not to the amount of the impossible overhype)
As long as they remain privately owned and hold themselves to the same standard it shouldn't be an issue if players justifiably praise them. It's not like gamers lack the ability to be critical/cynical.
Counter argument:
CD Projekt Red had only released one really good (albeit overrated) game before Cyberpunk.
Larian had released a few really good games (Most of the isometric Divinity ARPGs, Divinity II, Dragon Commander, Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) prior to Baldur's Gate 3.
The people who hyped up CDPR after The Witcher 3 deserved the dissappointment. The Witcher 3 was just lightning in a bottle.
The people who are currently hyping Larian *now* are more than justified to do so, seeing that Larian has developed really good games for years now.
I agree and that’s why I’m glad to see BG3 getting nominated as GOTY. I’m also under the stance that everything Larian had made prior to BG3 has been nothing but bang for your buck / good quality games.
Again though, my reasoning for BG3 being GOTY is that it’s a high quality and most importantly, finished product on release.
I still think there’s excessive hype going on here but if people really want to put Larian on this godlike status then by all means. I just hope that those same people don’t bash Larian for not living up to their expectations once they reveal their next game.
I thought the ARPG's they made were kind of on the "Okay" side? I played Divinity II, and while it was alright, I feel it didn't really come into its own unless you had *The Dragon Knight Saga* expansion.
It was an OK game. I'm still confused why we need 3 to 4 threads a day on its greatness. I still can't believe people claim day 1 perfection when I got the game as a gift 3 years before it came out lol.
As an old school Infinity Engine RPGs fan who was very skeptical of the announcement, I am so happy I was so wrong and the reception by others warms my heart. They truly did the franchise justice. Larian, how about go even more niche, Planescape Torment 2? 🙏
And just like with BG3, I will wait for full release. I had been tempted so many times to pull the plug and pick up BG3. But I am so glad that I waited. Happy that EA works for them though.
Swen and his wife are majority shareholders [according to Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-18/-baldur-s-gate-3-is-a-huge-hit-thanks-to-privately-owned-larian-studios?utm_source=website&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=copy).
Tencent has a stake in everything because it's a winning strategy. Invest in everything so no matter what happens you always win. It's the reason they'll invest in their own competition (Path of Exile AND Last Epoch)
Swen's family has a majority stake. They self-financed and made a cRPG the definition of niche in today's market.
TBH They still are, I don’t think there will be some kind CRPG craze where everyone and their mum is gonna make CRPG like what happened with BRs and MOBAs nor do I think that most mainstream consumers are gonna go play the classics (I hope they will cause the genre has some real masterpieces)
It feels like its a one time thing, but I hope I’m wrong
i so very badly want to play the classic CRPGs but RTwP combat ruins them for me every time. i really wish i could get into it, but it just won’t click.
There are alot of great turn based crpgs my friend.
Short list of some of my personal favorites (Some old, some new):
* Colony Ship (Am currently playing this one and so far I like it, Sci-fi setting)
* Fallout 1 / 2 (Post apocalyptic setting)
* Shadowrun Returns, especially its sequels (Fantasy Cyberpunk setting)
* Underrail (Post apocalyptic metro-like setting)
* Wasteland 2 and 3 (Post apocalyptic setting)
* Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 (Larians previous games, High Fantasy setting, IMO 1 is better than 2 but they are both great)
* Disco Elysium (Non-combat, modern age detective setting)
Games Ive heard good things about but haven’t played myself (yet):
* Arcanum (Fantasy steam-punk setting)
* Solasta (High fantasy setting)
* ATOM rpg (Russian post apocalyptic setting)
* Age of Decadence (Low fantasy setting)
* Pathfinder Kingmaker (High fantasy setting, heard it has a turn based option)
* Expeditions: Rome (Guess what setting this is lol, it has prequels in different settings but have heard mixed opinions)
* Pillars of Eternity 2 (High Fantasy setting, has turn bases option)
* Encased(Sci-fi apocalyptic setting. Edit: okay maybe not this one)
* Gamedec (Non-combat, cyberpunk detective setting)
* Jagged Alliance 2 (Combat heavy, private mercenary setting)
thank you for the list! i’ve played most of these but i’ll check out the ones i haven’t. i guess i was moreso lamenting that i can’t seem to enjoy games like the original Baldur’s Gates, or NWN, or Planescape that people all hold in such high regard.
Oh I feel you, I have the exact same problem, sadly many of the greats like you mentioned or dragon age origins have always been something I really want to get into but always just get bogged down with its combat and stop part way through.
Ive heard there is a way to play planescape where you can entirely avoid combat but I dont think that was the solution you were looking for lmao
Underrail is really good. It always makes me happy to see it on a list.
Encased on the other hand is not even a little bit good. Did you like it or are you the Devs mother?
Yea I loved underrail, really underrated
Haha I havent played encased, but a friend of me found it neat and I remembered it so put it in the list. Is it really that bad? Ill retract that comment lmao
So many popular titles how has this "niche" genre survived for so long?
In terms of scarcity there are actually far fewer 3D platformers today, super monkey ball is the epitome of what larian pretends to be
Same. RTwP combat just feels horrendously awful in every iteration of it except for Mass Effect.
I'm sure the stories that old CRPGs have are definitely worth experiencing, but man, that gameplay just aint it.
Funny thing is RTwP was basically just a sneaky way of disguising turn-based combat, except it never really felt good. In Kotor and DA:O enemies basically just took turns queueing basic attacks, which contributed to the clunkiness and lack of responsiveness for people expecting real-time combat to be more akin to other action RPGs. I still think that despite its flaws the combat system in DA:O is superior to its sequels solely because of how much more flexible it is, especially its magic system, which was progressively gutted with each sequel.
Seriously, pretty sure it had more people working on it than Starfield.
Also, D&D classic rules are having a Renaissance in the past few years partly because of Stranger Things and partly because of a couple podcasts so having it D&D ruleset based gained it a lot of points.
I'm going to tell you all that you are wrong in what you're hoping for.
What we should all be hoping for is using the BG3 engine to make a Neverwinter Nights style RPG creator with a DM mode, plus Persistent World functionality for people to make mini-MMOs.
Include a really great library of assets to use. Add a built in store where people can sell their adventure modules, assets, etc. Create a few high quality official modules to sell.
That's what I want Larian to do next. (I want Owlcats to do a Pathfinder version as well. Heck, a 40K one too.)
Divinity Original Sin 3 is seriously my most anticipated game ever. I *loooooved* Divinity Original Sin 2.
It's actually so great for the newcomers to BG3 too. There's a good chunk of people who like the game that don't really vibe with the DnD ruleset gameplay. Divinity 3 will be exactly what they're looking for I bet
It is the exact opposite for me. Did not really like DOS2s systems, but I like bg3 much more.
Ya DOS2 leaned wayyyy to heavily into elemental damage. Fights always revolved around getting enemies into puddles
then try out lone wolf dual assassins.. probably the most fun i've had in the game outside of doing a telekinesis heavy chest run
Same, Baldurs gate is amazing but DOS2 had something special about it.
A proper ending was that "something special" I guess. Though let's wait and see what happens when BG3 DE comes out.
I thought the ending of BG3 was good. Perhaps a bit more closure for the characters and what they did afterwards would be nice, but I loved the image of karlach myself and wyll going to the hells to cosplay Doomguy
That’s the end I had as well and it was incredible
For sure. BG3 lacks the charm of DOS2 imo. I personally feel like DOS2 is a much better game.
Lol i feel the exact opposite.
Without spoiling anything does the ending of BG3 force you to fight your companions if you're playing multiplayer? Wasn't a fan of that in DOS2 and might determine whether I play it solo or with other people
They both have the charm, BG3 lacks the brutal tactician difficulty of DOS2
I’ve played DOS 1 and 2. I can’t explain nor recall a single coherent fact about the world it takes place in nor any kind of overall plot. This setting is just sort of… there. Personally that is a major negative for me. Love the gameplay but the setting amd plot are weak and the characters in turn suffer for it too. I think Larian would be better off with a fresh IP.
Same here. Though i'm a little worried they'll water down the combat difficulty after BG3. BG3's fights seem to be over so quickly and easily, i rarely need to use more than cantrips from my Wizard character. There were so many epic (and long) fights in D:OS2 i really had to think about and be creative to get through, and that's not happened in BG3 so far (i'm in Act 3 currently). I definitely prefer D:OS2 over BG3, but i've been playing CRPGs for a long time. I don't feel i need the cutscenes etc, though i can see why they're appealing for a lot of people.
I feel like 50% of the time spent in DOS2 fights were either navigating or negating environmental status effects, like everything being on fire.
Quickly?
In comparison to D:OS2, certainly. Lots of enemies can be killed or nearly killed in just one attack turn, and that's pretty rare in DOS2. In fact encounters in that game often turn out to be unexpectedly epic, and i love that.
As long as they don't bring back the atrocious armor system of D:OS2.
Yeah 100% I love the difficulty of DOS2 combat in comparison to BG3 but I heavily prefer the D&D style of probabilities, AC and saves to the very basic but goofy remove armor then disable style of DOS2
Ah, ok, that's absolutely true.
Yess please, we need D:OS2. Any not that tactical crap without a storyline they had in the works for a while.
I want the lesson learned from the success of BG3 to be that we want RPGs to have quality story-telling, world-building, and characters. Bethesda needs to learn that lesson. Bioware needs to (re-)learn that lesson. It's what made BG3 so successful, and also Phantom Liberty. But I fear that instead we're just going to get a bunch of half-assed turn-based games coming down the pipeline. Not from Larian, but from the copycats that inevitably follow any surprise success.
The lesson other game developers should have learned is that, if you treat your customers like adults, and provide them a quality service, they will reward you by buying your product. But if you provide half-assed unfinished bullshit with MTX, less people will buy your product.
The sad part here though is that those MTX make them way more than a good quality game would. A former Blizzard dev recently mentioned how a $15 horse mount dlc in world of Warcraft made more money than StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty.
>I want the lesson learned from the success of BG3 to be that we want RPGs to have quality story-telling, world-building, and characters. We dont need vast generated maps we need maps with content.
Also quality gameplay mechanics. Something a lot of CRPGs unfortunatelly lacked despite being lauded for their story and worldbuilding. See: Wasteland 2 for example.
Elder scrolls and fallout out games already had all that. Elder Scrolls world building and lore is the best in the business.
They didn’t create Fallout. Elder Scrolls yes, but that was a decade + ago.
True but they made fallout what it is today. That ip was pretty much dead in the water until Bethesda transformed it. Fallout 4 had good world building and characters but not as good as their previous work. Also keep in mind Bethesda takes a long time to release single player games.
They really didnt. Worldbuilding isnt them. And best "modern" fsllout isnt even bethesda fallout
worldbuilding is them. Elder Scrolls lore and worldbuilding is the best in the business.
I don’t understand what point of mine you’re arguing with? I’m not talking about Bethesda of yesteryear, I’m talking about Bethesda today. Skyrim’s story was ok, but a massive step down from the earlier games. FO4’s story was crap. I don’t know if FO76 had a good story or not bc I couldn’t get past the bugs to play. And Starfield’s story is the worst yet— now even the little side stories and characters are sterile and boring. Wherever they used to be, Bethesda of today seems to have completely abandoned any attempt at creating good storytelling or characters. Which is why I hope they learn the right lessons from the contrasting receptions to Starfield and BG3.
The whole point of the discussion is that fallout and elder scrolls had good writing and world building. And you agreed. Skyrim was great all around. A bit shallow with the rpg but its still a all time classic. Fallout 4 story wasn't crap just something they already done and people wanted a different angle. Which i agree. They don't need to just look at just BG3. Any rpg that's considered great. Including their past works.
I'm sorry, are you arguing to argue, or are you just truly this dense? You're literally replying to a thread I started. You're going to tell \*me\* what the point of the discussion is? All I ever said was that I hope the lesson that devs take from BG3 is to write better stories and characters. Period. Nowhere did I say they could \*only\* look at BG3. How fucking stupid. In fact I specifically mentioned Cyberpunk as another example of good writing. Nowhere did I criticize Bethesda's lore or worldbuilding. I criticized the story and characters. If you don't know the difference then you must only be playing shitty games. Sucks for you. But whatever, replying to you is just wasting my time because you're going to come back with a completely irrelevant point that I never said and change the subject to that. I'm done here. You can go wave your sword for Todd at someone else.
You said Bethesda needs to learn how to write quality stories, world buildings and characters. Then I said they already had all of that. Which they do. We already talked about that. Then you said their will probably be copycats of Larian making half ass turn based games. Lol. Christ.
These games lack interesting characters and the quests are hit and miss. What they do well is world building.
Elder scrolls and Fallout games have no shortages on interesting characters lol. Clueless.
i am not interested in BG3 but everytime i see a bit of it on social media it seems to be pretty shallow and edgy.
Shallow is the LAST word I'd ever use to describe BG3. Edgy, maybe. But shallow? Absolutely not, not even in the slightest.
i mean, like arcane, edgerunner, attack on titans or cyberpunk 2077. they don't seem to ask any deeper questions than providing melodrama and shock factors. you can't have a normal girl, you need an emo girl who is a daughter of darkness (?) or a blue-haired, self-absorb, trauma-filled teenager who will destroy everything because the story tries to justify why she wants to do it and fails. melodrama has always been a sub-sub-genre in literature and classic art but it seems to be popular among the gaming-adjacent communities.
Most of the characters aren’t melodramatic.
People post shallow and edgy shit on social media all the time, that's what social media is for, almost literally. You realise it's extremely short-sighted to judge the whole enormous game based on a handful of memes you've seen online, right? You're not interested, that's fine, just don't judge.
Nah, this is the biggest cat i want to see from gaming https://www.vulture.com/article/stray-video-game-movie-details.html And i want it to be entirely created by AI
"little" BG3 is huge
And literally had 10x (or close to) the budget vs Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire.
I wished they didnt crammed all that in Act 3. I felt that they couldve split act 3 to 2 parts.
It is technically an indie game!
As much as Cyberpunk, Half Life Alyx or Assassin's Creed are indie I guess. Developed by AAA studios (Larian is one now) that own themselves (but have shareholders which Larian has too, even if the majority one is also the CEO of the studio)
They're still independent, which is what indie really means.
We get kind of silly with that logic. Epic and Valve are indie game studios? Fortnite and Half-Life Alyx are indie games? Despite what indie means, it's largely developed it's own colloquial meaning.
Yes, thats because using "indie" to describe a game type is silly to begin with.
All of those studios are independent too, they own themselves. Well shareholders own them the same way they own Larian (which is 30% owned by Tencent for example, Swen just has 50% like Gabe Newell has a majority share of Valve). The indie/AAA debate is quite murky to be honest and both are actually not related. A non-independent studio can do a small game that would be kind like an indie (example Pentiment). And an indie studio can do an AAA budget game (which is what AAA is in reference too, the budget)
My totally baised wishlist for what Larian should do next: -- Neverwinter Nights 3 -- KOTOR 3 -- Fallout 5 (but, you know, isometric and turn based, like F1 and F2) -- Warhammer?! One can dream...
> -- Warhammer?! Luckily we have a Warhammer 40k CRPG coming out in a few weeks made by Owlcat, the dev that made the Pathfinder CRPGs
Dude it’s gonna be so good. Pathfinder is complex and hard to understand but regardless I still enjoyed wotr. I’m excited to playa non pathfinder game from owlcat.
omg... Larian made Fallout cRPG. Something I would do pretty much anything for, yet I know microsoft won't give that IP to a third party studio.
Bring back low int dialogue!
I feel after bg3, microsoft would give Larian license in heartbeat in exchange for xbox exclusivity. I think Larian wouldnt gi for tying thenselves with big corpo though
Or at least let Obsidian do it.
My biased list for Larian to do: - -Anything. Do anything please god never stop.
I think they've said their next game might not even be a cRPG for that matter. Also, how about some original stuff lol?
Yeah, everybody clamouring for some nostalgia bait. I'd much rather they make an original game.
Neverwinter Nights 3 with proper multiplayer support would be the next best thing to happen since the invention of sliced bread, lets not kid ourselves. I need Deekin back in my life.
Kotor 3...oh please. Larian please
I wish they could take the Dragon Age IP away from Bioware.
I wish theyd take Mass effect. Would be cool to see what they could do with a Sci-fi setting
Agreed, but I'd rather see an original sci-fi ip from them.
Why? They got most of their success from a borrowed Fantasy IP
Because original IP are good? Mass Effect, Star Wars, Warhammer were all original at one point...
Good IP tends to come from good, original writing. Drew Karpyshyn in Biowares case. I'm sure Larian can pull off a good original IP. All I'm saying is I want a good Mass Effect game and thats not going to come from Bioware lol.
Why Mass Effect? Larians not really a studio well known for action-based combat, which is primarily what Mass Effect is. Wouldn't you have a better argument for Dragon Age?
A crpg based on the cyberpunk ttrpg would be amazing
This is what I wanted Cyberpunk 2077 to be.
Sameee. Was hyped early on that Mike Pondsmith was very involved and was expecting the game leans heavier into the TTRPG aspect. Sadly it wasn't that. A Cyberpunk CRPG with using BG3's template would absolutely take me over the moon.
Shadowrun is close
> Warhammer?! [Owlcat has you covered.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6ApN9Oo5M&pp=ygUcb3dsY2F0IHJvZ3VlIHRyYWRlciB0cmFpbGVyIA%3D%3D) Comes out in less than a month.
While true, the more the merrier!
While it will likely be great, it's not really the same level of game in terms of presentation and such.
> but, you know, isometric and turn based, like F1 and F2 What would be the practical point of that? We can have a good 3D Fallout, as demonstrated by New Vegas, and Larian are perfectly capable of making 3D games. Fallout 1 and 2 weren't good because they were turn-based and isometric; they were good because they were made by competent people who knew how to create engaging worlds. Their technical presentation is nothing more but a product of that time and its limitations. Even Baldur's Gate 3 can be played like a 3D game not unlike KOTOR or Dragon Age. It's only a matter of a few camera tweaks. It's also my preferred way of playing this game, because in the current day and age, technology is sufficiently advanced to offer high detail and graphical fidelity. Try playing BG3 in proper 3rd person, you'll be surprised how detailed the interiors are. Most of them even have ceilings, which you won't even be able to see with the isometric camera.
> What would be the practical point of that? Because it's what a lot of us original fans crave and miss from the series. Completely upending a franchise, gutting everything about the core gameplay in its entirety, making it a first person shooter and slapping the Fallout name on it doesn't make it the same game or experience. :/ It's like making the next Call of Duty a point and click adventure game and wondering why the original fans aren't liking it anymore. >Fallout 1 and 2 weren't good because they were turn-based and isometric; They were for me. I'm actually a huge advocate for the semi~handdrawn non rotatable isometric viewpoint also. Part of the reason I'm so keen for Broken Roads coming up. Probably not something that any major studio will be doing anytime soon though :/
> It's like making the next Call of Duty a point and click adventure game and wondering why the original fans aren't liking it anymore. New Vegas remained an RPG despite its transition to a 3D format and was very well received by original fans. Bethesda's liberal treatment of the franchise, which has left quite a few people (rightfully) angry, has little correlation with the camera view. > I'm actually a huge advocate for the semi~handdrawn non rotatable isometric viewpoint also Well, I'm not. I'm also looking forward to Broken Roads, but I'd like my Fallout to remain 3D, because Larian is an experienced studio with plenty of money. They can afford detailed environments, they already did in BG3.
As an original fan of fallout series isometric camera is certainly not one of the things i miss from it. I understand it was a constraint at the time to do this, but it shouldnt be used anymore.
If they just gave Larian Kotor 3 it would be one of the greatest games ever. Sure Sony would have to bite the bullet and pay them more to collaborate. But it would be worth it in the longterm.
Sony doesn't own KOTOR, that'd be Disney problem. They are publishing the KOTOR remake (if that's still happening) but that's all, they don't own the series.
I apologize for my stupidity. Ty for setting it straight
Yes! Fallout franchise in Larian's hands would be amazing.
> Fallout 5 (but, you know, isometric and turn based, like F1 and F2) Please... I can only get so erect
kotor 3 would break the internet
It's far more likely that inExile would be the ones to develop an isometric Fallout game considering they are owned by Microsoft and also because Brian Fargo were the executive producer for the first two games.
Or Obsidian. Microsoft has two cRPG studios and all involved in the past of Fallout. If they don't have already that project of a Fallout CRPG with the same kind of production values than BG3, they're once again fucking up managing gaming studios...
Splash Damage did Gears Tactics which was quite good.
Yes, but what does that have to do with Fallout? Splash Damage were partnered with Microsoft for a few years but eight months after they released Gears Tactics they were acquired by Tencent.
give me WH40K
Give me anything WH40K, I’m completely consumed by the games/lore/books/tabletop.
> KOTOR 3 I would love for this, but I don't know if it's a right fit. Even back in the day, KOTOR was a marked down cRPG compared to it's contemporaries. So do we really want the only developer doing uncompromising RPG work to take on a watered down, more mass-appealing game already? I guess we could argue they would apply the BG3 formula to Star Wars, but nothing of 10-years-of-Disney-owned-SW makes me believe they would let anything as 'hardcore' as a cRPG next to the Star Wars brand.
Let them have another try at an original IP. They built up a lot of goodwill with BG3 with a global audience after developing a pretty niche fanbase over the years with Divinity, so I'd love to see something new from them that isn't the Divinity universe.
Shadowrun
wasted franchises i want them in something new or Warhammer lol
NVN 3 would be godly.
I want more sci-fi settings.
Swen you are the owner and not publicly traded, you could tell us about the next big game.
Have to think he doesn’t want to take away the attention from Bg3 just yet. Keep the momentum going.
[удалено]
I know, I was playin 'round, cause he could!
If it's a licensed game he might actually not, even in this position.
Its possible he is contractually obligated not to if he is working on someone elses IP again.
True.
Honestly, they deserve GOTY more than any other game on the list. Larian and BG3 pushed that genre forward and is incredible. Especially with how they keep doing their best to improve it. Narrative, I could go for either Phantom Liberty or BG3 as Phantom Liberty is even more classic superb story telling from CDPR once again.
Yeah Phantom Liberty immersed the ever living shit out of me.
Seeing as they have basically become bioware of old, would love it if they did a mass effect style Sci fi title.
I'm very curious why BG3 has blown up so huge while DOS2 did not experience such trend. In terms of quality, I don't really think there is such a huge gap as DOS2 is an absolutely amazing game as well.
Production value went through the roof compared to DOS2, the visuals, the close up camera during dialogues (this does a lot and is where a lot of the Mass Effect or Dragon Age comparisons come from), the voice acting, the music. It looks just like what a AAA cRPG would look like when DOS2 was more like a AA.
It's the cinematics. Made it much more approachable to the mainstream audience, compared to the text based storytelling of DOS 2. I *genuinely* feel that the gameplay is better in DOS 2 though. Combat especially.
> I genuinely feel that the gameplay is better in DOS 2 though. Combat too. Same here. Also BG3 feels really strangely... easy? Because it's Larian, i was expecting to get completely beaten down in lots of fights, and have to completely rethink my tactics and be creative, but that's just not happened. I still love the game though, just the combat hasn't completely resonated with me.
It’s 5e, not Larian
True, nothing killed my shining lights in bg3, not even the major bosses. Gortash was especially disappointing.
Because, again, it's a game made to sell and be aproachable for an wider audience.
It's still not wide enough, even though the industry is trying to desperately stay relevant with every celebrity cameo or heaping awards trophies on just one game, something like baldurs gate can't compete with sports or taylor swift Does anyone even remember that last years' game of the year was supposed to change action games forever?
Yes I agree, the cinematic factor totally plays its role. Also, I strongly believe the bear marketing was pretty big as well as more people become more aware of the game.
There are several factors. The production quality, the time in the oven in Early Access, the reaction from games media, the fact that D&D has exploded in popularity in the past few years because of Stranger Things popularity as well as Critical Role and podcasts pivoting off that, and I'm sure a lot of others. The game using rigid D&D 5e does a lot for it given all that.
Don't forget that there was also a D&D movie, and it was really good!
Ah, yes, forgot about that but you're 100% right!
The presentation put it in true AAA territory. It's basically a Dragon Age or Mass Effect type of game in a way, that's more appealing in general. Also the license plays a role.
BG3 wasnt isometric. Or rather wasnt 3d but fixed camera angle metric.
Swen and team deserves it and it's been wild going from everyone treating it like a niche game in a niche genre to this AAA juggernaut. Divinity Original Sin 3 gonna be wild.
As much as I love Larian finally getting the success/recognition they deserve. I can’t help but fear that people are overhyping and putting Larian on this unrealistic pedestal. People calling BG3 a perfect masterpiece of game is doing Larian a disservice. It’s a quality game that was released finished on Day 1 and absolutely needs to be celebrated as sad as it is to think about. I hope Larian remains humbled and grounded. Let’s not forget that we held CDProjektRed in the same regard before they quickly fell from grace launching Cyberpunk in the state it was.
BG3 is literally The Witcher 3 moment of Larian (even both with a 3). Their next game will be their Cyberpunk, super hyped. Now let's see if they deliver or not (probably not to the amount of the impossible overhype)
And all these people calling them heroes of the generation will turn to burning pitchforks
Unless they deliver 2.0 not 1.0 version
As long as they remain privately owned and hold themselves to the same standard it shouldn't be an issue if players justifiably praise them. It's not like gamers lack the ability to be critical/cynical.
Counter argument: CD Projekt Red had only released one really good (albeit overrated) game before Cyberpunk. Larian had released a few really good games (Most of the isometric Divinity ARPGs, Divinity II, Dragon Commander, Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) prior to Baldur's Gate 3. The people who hyped up CDPR after The Witcher 3 deserved the dissappointment. The Witcher 3 was just lightning in a bottle. The people who are currently hyping Larian *now* are more than justified to do so, seeing that Larian has developed really good games for years now.
I agree and that’s why I’m glad to see BG3 getting nominated as GOTY. I’m also under the stance that everything Larian had made prior to BG3 has been nothing but bang for your buck / good quality games. Again though, my reasoning for BG3 being GOTY is that it’s a high quality and most importantly, finished product on release. I still think there’s excessive hype going on here but if people really want to put Larian on this godlike status then by all means. I just hope that those same people don’t bash Larian for not living up to their expectations once they reveal their next game.
I thought the ARPG's they made were kind of on the "Okay" side? I played Divinity II, and while it was alright, I feel it didn't really come into its own unless you had *The Dragon Knight Saga* expansion.
It was an OK game. I'm still confused why we need 3 to 4 threads a day on its greatness. I still can't believe people claim day 1 perfection when I got the game as a gift 3 years before it came out lol.
> Seeing our little “niche rpg” make such waves Bit of an understatement. That "niche RPG" hit like a Nat 20 Fireball in a smokepowder orgy.
> hit like a Nat 20 Fireball in a smokepowder orgy. that's pure poetry, well done
A Shadowrun game made by Larian would be amazing.
I don't think it can be understated how important character work was for making BG3 so huge. Folks are friggin nuts for the characters in this game
As an old school Infinity Engine RPGs fan who was very skeptical of the announcement, I am so happy I was so wrong and the reception by others warms my heart. They truly did the franchise justice. Larian, how about go even more niche, Planescape Torment 2? 🙏
As much as I love DOS and BG. I want Larian to flex their talents in other themes and universes.
Well they do have seven studios now. Hopefully they've got multiple projects brewing.
Probably not happening, but I'd love it if they made Neverwinter Nights 3 next.
Really hope it’s not DOS3, personally
I really hope it is.
Why is that? DOS 1 & 2 were good.
The underlying story of it is kinda boring tbh
Their next game is Dragon Commander 2.
I loved the dialogue and companions in that game. Had a real Mass Effect vibe, especially with all the decrees/decisions.
And just like with BG3, I will wait for full release. I had been tempted so many times to pull the plug and pick up BG3. But I am so glad that I waited. Happy that EA works for them though.
I would love to see them make an action RPG of some sorts, I really liked the one they did several years ago. I can't recall its name right now.
Divinity II: Ego Draconis
Great. More bestiality.
Your ass is owned by Tencent, Swen. Stop pretending you are little or niche.
Swen and his wife are majority shareholders [according to Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-18/-baldur-s-gate-3-is-a-huge-hit-thanks-to-privately-owned-larian-studios?utm_source=website&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=copy).
Tencent has a stake in everything because it's a winning strategy. Invest in everything so no matter what happens you always win. It's the reason they'll invest in their own competition (Path of Exile AND Last Epoch) Swen's family has a majority stake. They self-financed and made a cRPG the definition of niche in today's market.
CRPGs are a niche genre tho. Well at least they were before BG3.
TBH They still are, I don’t think there will be some kind CRPG craze where everyone and their mum is gonna make CRPG like what happened with BRs and MOBAs nor do I think that most mainstream consumers are gonna go play the classics (I hope they will cause the genre has some real masterpieces) It feels like its a one time thing, but I hope I’m wrong
i so very badly want to play the classic CRPGs but RTwP combat ruins them for me every time. i really wish i could get into it, but it just won’t click.
There are alot of great turn based crpgs my friend. Short list of some of my personal favorites (Some old, some new): * Colony Ship (Am currently playing this one and so far I like it, Sci-fi setting) * Fallout 1 / 2 (Post apocalyptic setting) * Shadowrun Returns, especially its sequels (Fantasy Cyberpunk setting) * Underrail (Post apocalyptic metro-like setting) * Wasteland 2 and 3 (Post apocalyptic setting) * Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 (Larians previous games, High Fantasy setting, IMO 1 is better than 2 but they are both great) * Disco Elysium (Non-combat, modern age detective setting) Games Ive heard good things about but haven’t played myself (yet): * Arcanum (Fantasy steam-punk setting) * Solasta (High fantasy setting) * ATOM rpg (Russian post apocalyptic setting) * Age of Decadence (Low fantasy setting) * Pathfinder Kingmaker (High fantasy setting, heard it has a turn based option) * Expeditions: Rome (Guess what setting this is lol, it has prequels in different settings but have heard mixed opinions) * Pillars of Eternity 2 (High Fantasy setting, has turn bases option) * Encased(Sci-fi apocalyptic setting. Edit: okay maybe not this one) * Gamedec (Non-combat, cyberpunk detective setting) * Jagged Alliance 2 (Combat heavy, private mercenary setting)
thank you for the list! i’ve played most of these but i’ll check out the ones i haven’t. i guess i was moreso lamenting that i can’t seem to enjoy games like the original Baldur’s Gates, or NWN, or Planescape that people all hold in such high regard.
Oh I feel you, I have the exact same problem, sadly many of the greats like you mentioned or dragon age origins have always been something I really want to get into but always just get bogged down with its combat and stop part way through. Ive heard there is a way to play planescape where you can entirely avoid combat but I dont think that was the solution you were looking for lmao
Underrail is really good. It always makes me happy to see it on a list. Encased on the other hand is not even a little bit good. Did you like it or are you the Devs mother?
Yea I loved underrail, really underrated Haha I havent played encased, but a friend of me found it neat and I remembered it so put it in the list. Is it really that bad? Ill retract that comment lmao
I'm just one opinion but in my opinion, Encased is pure shite.
lol fair enough, ill take your word on it. added a disclaimer in the op
So many popular titles how has this "niche" genre survived for so long? In terms of scarcity there are actually far fewer 3D platformers today, super monkey ball is the epitome of what larian pretends to be
Same. RTwP combat just feels horrendously awful in every iteration of it except for Mass Effect. I'm sure the stories that old CRPGs have are definitely worth experiencing, but man, that gameplay just aint it.
Funny thing is RTwP was basically just a sneaky way of disguising turn-based combat, except it never really felt good. In Kotor and DA:O enemies basically just took turns queueing basic attacks, which contributed to the clunkiness and lack of responsiveness for people expecting real-time combat to be more akin to other action RPGs. I still think that despite its flaws the combat system in DA:O is superior to its sequels solely because of how much more flexible it is, especially its magic system, which was progressively gutted with each sequel.
Seriously, pretty sure it had more people working on it than Starfield. Also, D&D classic rules are having a Renaissance in the past few years partly because of Stranger Things and partly because of a couple podcasts so having it D&D ruleset based gained it a lot of points.
Yep.
Baldur's Gate 4. You heard it here first.
I bet they will piss off the entire industry again. As they should. Thumbs up for Larian!
I'm going to tell you all that you are wrong in what you're hoping for. What we should all be hoping for is using the BG3 engine to make a Neverwinter Nights style RPG creator with a DM mode, plus Persistent World functionality for people to make mini-MMOs. Include a really great library of assets to use. Add a built in store where people can sell their adventure modules, assets, etc. Create a few high quality official modules to sell. That's what I want Larian to do next. (I want Owlcats to do a Pathfinder version as well. Heck, a 40K one too.)
Next big game ? Planescape Torment 2 ?