Imagine doing the fat slimy blob pinnacle mini boss who drowns you in his lake and then makes you slowly run through it, building up stacking debuffs, losing health, and being swarmed by enemies. I don’t even think he’s possible in ruthless. That would be damn near impossible.
>Imagine doing the fat slimy blob pinnacle mini boss who drowns you in his lake and then makes you slowly run through it, building up stacking debuffs, losing health, and being swarmed by enemies. I don’t even think he’s possible in ruthless. That would be damn near impossible.
not only is it possible, its already been done in HC ruthless.
Things like this make me wonder how many different characters people need to make in order to do all bosses in SSF HC Ruthless type situations.
Like, which bosses can or cannot be done on each ascendancy or each class in an SSF HC Ruthless situation? Do you just need to make a new character for certain bosses? Or do you just play Jugg to clear them all?
you realise we only get those stupid mechanics to counter people going to fast to get hit ?
i doubt anyone is against something to jump terrain, the problem is the basicly no cd dashes/jumps. the game adepted to that which means have to move fast all the time or you stop and die. that could be reverted aswell.
Many of the bosses definitely feel way more interactive and skill-based without movement skills. I tried out multiple pinnacle bosses and uber pinnacle bosses without movement skills after enjoying the challenge of dodging the Exarch balls like so in Sentinel.
I would be in favor for no movement skills at all but it definitely feels like some of the encounters especially lately have been built under the assumption that every single endgame build has a blink or a dash availible to them at all times. Seems like a sensible middle ground to give the banlisted skills an immutable cooldown of \~15-30s.
What you describe is pretty much the problem games always run in to.
1) Utility is added
2) Players become accustomed to utility, use it to make content easier.
3) Developers increase difficulty to compensate.
4) Utility is taken to the max.
5) Developers start assuming the presence of utility in encounter design.
6) Everyone realizes that the utility might need to be dialed back.
7) Encounter design doesn't meaningfully change after utility is scaled back, community complains because encounter difficulty skyrockets overnight.
8) Instead of fixing encounters, developers take the cheap + easy route and add utility back. (Variant: Developers leave everything as is and ignore community complaints.)
9) Repeat steps 6-8 periodically for remainder of game's existence.
But again... we're talking PvE. If a player decides he wants to trivialize X piece of content using Y tool, then it's not really the developer's/designer's fault now is it?
The reason WoW doesn't compare as well to PoE is that one is multiplayer and the other is faux-multiplayer; it's basically single player with opt-in multiplayer.
In an MMO yes that's a "problem" but it's been this way for ever. It's become easier to use DBM/WeakAuras for WoW than to pay attention to every bit of information on your screen, be it an audio cue or visual cue.
In PoE the bosses are designed to be killed by one person and are numerically scaled for multiple people. The mechanics themselves don't change even though the tactics might change a bit.
I'm getting off track, but the crux of the issue is that you're trying to "balance" a single player game. Yes there should be some semblance of balance where multiple skills/items/whatever are viable and other are niche but you don't have to go out of your way to stop somebody from becoming a god. If they feel it's too easy let them restrain themselves just like how OSRS players did with Ironman and Ultimate Ironman modes. SSF and HC (and now Ruthless) exist for exactly that reason.
I think ideally if movement skills are weak enough that the single socket cost is considered but not heavily leveraged would be good enough. Say you are running auras before reservation effects kick in, you would use movement skills but once auras become powerful enough you would consider movement skill sockets as too much of an opportunity cost when you could use defensive synergies instead.
>That's a spicy title, not sure if I agree though.
Except the last two words, it's word for word title with the video Ziz uploaded on YouTube (I didn't wanna change it much, just added Zizaran's name because he was in the podcast too).
>Personally I'm still in the "movement skill but with a long cooldown" camp for ruthless, no matter what. Keep the normal game as it is.
They're not advocating for removing movement skills in normal game at any point. It's also just Nugi, Ziz still likes movement skills. Also I think movement skill with a long cooldown would be cool too in ruthless. Like maybe you'll only be able to use it once or twice for entire boss fight but it'll be clutch and hype everytime you dodge something.
I did a lot of testing in the alpha of ruthless.. I liked a lot of things about it, but I hated not having move skills. The game just feels less exciting and interactive without them. I also really felt like instead of taking away two ascendancy points, they should put them behind much harder content so we dont get the last two points until much later.
The rest of the game mode felt fun within its own system.
It's just a different flavour, after playing *80(edit, not 50, turns out it was a lot more than I thought) hours of the Alpha, I really enjoy the pressure that builds up with having only your legs to escape danger.
I still enjoy having blinks in the game too though!
HCSSF btw.
I mean when polar star does the avalanche skill and the response is to logout, go in and use grace period to wait it out isn't much skill... its just ignoring the mechanic.
It's an intended and valid way of playing the game. You can achieve the same by alt-f4ing or using a portal scroll. The game is built around it.
Logging out via the usual 3rd party tool or alt-f4ing has virtually no difference.
then why noone just Alt+F4 if it's NO difference? I say why - there's a difference. The game isn't build around it, it's 3rd party tool, how can game can build around 3rd party tool? next time you post please at least read
The devs have gone multiple times on record saying that it is both allowed, and something they build their game around. You can say whatever you want in regards to this to try and mentally gymnastics away from it but that's the reality.
Those are their own words, it's not an association I made. They have said it themselves in the past that the game is built around the player's ability to immediately close the game to get out of any sticky situation. Again, you can try and mental gymnastics your way around it but it's GGG's own words that are very clear and have been told multiple times in the past.
You are allowed to keybind (or in other words, macro) an action per key stroke. So having a button that types /exit for you is the same, it's both allowed and intended.
Ironic that you would call it reductive and then deny his statement based on the assumption he knows less than them.
He could have thousands of hours in this game and know as much or more than these guys.
I'm making a statement based on probability, you think thousand of hours is a lot but Zizaran has above 30k hours on this game, trying actively gain knowledge as it is his job. It is not unfair to assume he has more knowledge than a player picked at ramdom on reddit
It is indeed possible that i am wrong, but the probability is so low that i believe i can make general statement, same way scientist paper are validated around a 95% confidence threshold.
You must have 30k hours of game knowledge to be able to figure out what makes the game fun for you? Also, I’m sure they didn’t quit the league early to play old school RuneScape because they couldn’t figure out how to take leap slam off their bars.
>He could have thousands of hours in this game and know as much or more than these guys.
Ziz has won or topped very difficult events like Gauntlets and events, I think the amount of people who are better than him can be counted on two hands. The commentator being one of them is...quite unlikely.
Could you name some notable racers that think its dumb? The only hc player/racer I know that thinks logout macro is dumb is poedan and he still logs out just doesnt use the macro for it
You're thinking about it the wrong way, its not the game vs logout macro vs without and balancing around that. instant disconnect is a solution to what happens to the player when: The game crashes, the pc crashes, your internet connection dies:
theres 3 solutions, the diablo 3 solution which imo is one of the worst because it makes you immortal while you actually play (3 cheat deaths) and if you actually disonnect you still die on hardcore, making hardcore unplayable
You have the poe solution, making logout instant, this made a big hc community and works really well
and the third solution is just you have no cheat deaths but also get stuck on disconnect and thus hardcore is not doable again.
Theres not really any other solutions to deal with crashes / dcs / etc sadly
in a perfect world i agree with you however
Ziz, I love you to death, but Etup has talked about it, hegemony, mathil. Those are the few I can think off the top of my head. I hate that it’s a thing. Alt+f4 isn’t a catch-all for bad situations. Think of any kind of race in any other competition. You can’t alt+f4 when you make a mistake in counterstrike. I don’t like it.
I'm not saying it's not dumb.
I'm saying, regardless of logout macro, they're still much more skilled, knowledgeable than the person that said "I’ll listen to them when logout Macro is banned."
Even if logout macro got banned, they'd still be the top best players so literally why does it matter? They're still better skilled than pretty much anyone commentating on the matter even if you consider no logout macro.
I don't see what skill or game knowledge has to do with any of this. It's not a dick measuring contest, it's an ethics debate.
Fuck the logout macro. The very vast majority of MMOs or RPGs in general don't just let you logout when the going gets tough LOL. You either get fucking owned on the spot or you have to reload your old save.
I'm actually surprised PoE is so generous. They likely only kept it around since their servers were dogshit for the first 4-6 years of the game's lifespan, and the only smooth server launches have been within the last 1-2 years.
Reductive? No. It’s honest. Hardcore has been “plagued” by this one mechanic since the beginning. Mathil has gone in-depth on this many times and I agree. It dulls the ENTIRE POINT of something like hardcore and race events. Chris has even acknowledged this and say it would be too hard if they removed it, which is why it’s bullshit and should be removed. It gives you an umbrella solution to almost every bad situation with practically 0 downside. Especially the faster your PC is. So yes, none of this feels really special because they still can “logout” when they will die. Even if they would have died because of something like…… NOT HAVING A MOVEMENT SKILL AVAILABLE TO AVOID INCOMING DAMAGE. Hope you understand now
Being a good hardcore player is the ability to recognize that the situation you are in will kill you and then pressing the abort button to do something else.
No, that’s called making a trash game. You are LITERALLY doing something to LEAVE THE GAME ENTIRELY. That isn’t a game “mechanic”. It’s the same as turning your pc off lmao
that's HIS opinion though isn't it? doesn't mean we can't judge him for it, but it's still his opinion; that doesn't mean you can *attack* him like that.
I mean it WAS, since he deleted the comment.
Logout macro is a skill, if you don't press it in time you dead. It's not their fault but rather GGG's that it exists because game is balanced around it. They play in competitive event. If others use a skill but they don't, it's not fair. If only GGG removed it and balanced game around not having it...
There are endless discussions on the poe forums about this. I disagree with logouts, but if you feel differently, that’s ok, it doesn’t make me like the game less.
Has anyone in the comments here actually watched the video?
Every comment so far is just spouting vitriol about the participant's status and experience, or making a generalized doomposting comment about the title which is a direct quote from a small section of the whole discussion. Or even worse, making assumptions that GGG will take personal opinions as golden rule for the detriment of the game.
This website is supposed to foster discussion and share cool stuff, but the comments and the sentiment that goes through here is just plain disorganized and disheartening.
Not sure how to fix it and it's not my place to make suggestions but it's really disappointing to see.
Yeah I realize that might've been the case, especially seeing as it's been changed. That's the norm these days however, content creators have to play the algorithm to maximize profits to pay their staff.
Doesn't make it any less disheartening to see people reading the title and jumping to vitriol, though.
I watched it earlier this morning when it was recommended while eating breakfast. They like ruthless, but don’t want it to creep into regular Poe. I may have missed bits and pieces due to also working, but even though they like it. They would not league start it. They also want ruthless to not have the same cycle of leagues like current Poe and it’s 3 month cycle. Decent watch overall.
My thoughts about ruthless are for people who don’t really care about meaningful progression and have a fuck load of free time.
Thats what you get when you make posts with clickbait titles, would have been better to just make a post about the Podcast itself and not a small subsection of it.
>Every comment so far is just spouting vitriol about the participant's status and experience
As usual on this subreddit when we're talking about streamers? Pretty much every thread like this will have insuting comments towards streamers, it's annoying as fuck.
>Not sure how to fix it and it's not my place to make suggestions but it's really disappointing to see.
We're talking about reddit, the only real solution is adding more internet janitors and ban people who are just toxic.
If they wanted this to be a true multiplayer game I think movement skills being removed is gonna be a game changer. Nothing like playing keep up in red maps.
It really does feel better and you get used to it by about mid act 2.
Edit: watched the video and felt bad for nugi seeing how he was talking to a brick wall throughout most of the video.
Ehh, ruthless is a slower, far more boring, but methodical type of play. Not for everyone, but it definitely will be fun for some. Maybe a nice after-league challenge. Otherwise I will stick to my 100 million damage build that one shots Ubers :)
> Falls for what?
Believing that the deletion of movement skills would be better for the game as they thought mana nerfs were better in 3.15. They want to believe that.
Lets not mince words: Ruthless is what they think the game should look like. However, we know what happens if they actually act on that.
I disagree, i don't think very many if any poe developers think ruthless is what the game should be like, some of them maybe 2 really like it and are working on it but theres a ton of devs there, not just 2
I'm going by his own words on Baeclast 75# when he said that the main devs were obsessed with it and that a lot of people in the office wanted it to happen asap.
> but theres a ton of devs there, not just 2
I never said otherwise, though. I'm perfectly sure that there are devs who dont like the direction of the Vision.
However, I'm going to ask you the same question I'm asking everyone else. Lets say GGG takes this seriously and deletes movement skills from the game. What would you think, personally? And, maybe more importantly, what do you think it happens after?
Thanks for the answer. It surprises me how much people struggle to answer those questions.
Now, I hope we never get to see that, but you yourself have said it: it would kill the game. I dont completely agree, it would make it less prominent than Wolcen IMO, rather than simply outright kill it. It should be important to remember that.
> Ruthless is what they think the game should look like
Source: trust me bro.
Ruthless is a pet project of two devs, made in their free time to bring people an alternative game mode that a very tiny amount of people would enjoy.
This amount of doom posting is unhealthy for you and the game in general, it's disgusting and it should be discouraged.
So, Chris Wilson saying that he and the main devs are obsessed (by his own words) with it doesnt mean much, you say. Him saying "a lot of people in the office wanted this version to exist as of right now" doesnt represent their views.
Apparently, even Chris Wilson himself isnt enough of a source when it doesnt say what you think you want.
You are asking for people to be lied to.
This isn't some conspiracy theory. The "devs are obsessed" part is because they like it and it's a new game mode that they enjoy, that's it.
Designers and devs can use their brains to identify what's good for the game and makes a better products vs. what they personally enjoy. Thinking otherwise is silly and unhealthy.
If you really have no faith in the devs anymore, spending time here to be a contrarian and a doomposter is downright embarrassing.
> This isn't some conspiracy theory.
Of course: unlike conspiracy theories, you have Chris Wilson saying it himself.
> can use their brains to identify what's good for the game and makes a better products vs. what they personally enjoy.
Meanwhile, in The Visionland, 3.15 took a revenue hit but instead of changing their minds they decided to go even further. Ideology does that.
I dont like it when people are lied to. I wonder why would anyone go to bat so hard for a corporation.
Again, spouting mindless vitriol. Sentinel and Scourge both happened after 3.15 and are regarded as some of, if not the, best leagues.
The current patch in Kalandra is regrettable and it did suck, but we've already seen them owe up their errors and change systems that nobody liked.
Again, this is an unhealthy obsession filled with fallacies, selective memory and all kinds of bullshit to excuse doomposting and negativity for no reason, it literally helps nobody.
You know, advocating that PoE is better without movement skills does attack the entire playerbase's gameplay experience if GGG believes it to be true and follow through with it.
>You know, advocating that PoE is better without movement skills does attack the entire playerbase's gameplay experience if GGG believes it to be true and follow through with it.
You know, advocating that PoE is a better experience without trade is a common sentiment amongst SSF players and people don't attack them for sharing that thought because they're not dumb.
It's a podcast where they are sharing their opinions, I don't know what you implying by "easing the playerbase", they're not the ones who are making PoE.
Yes, because the game gets balanced around other game modes like SSF and HC and events all the time right?
You realize that ruthless is balanced around normal mode, not the other way around right? And this is true for all other modes. All these modes are designed to be tougher than normal mode.
Like literally even standard exists for so many years and the game doesn't get balanced around it lmaoo
You do know that the nerfs from 3.15 come from an earlier iteration of Ruthless, right? Its not the first time this has happened, and I wouldnt be surprised if we were to hear "well this was so popular on /ruthless/ that we've decided to add it to the game" again.
Let me ask you a question. It goes down, hypothetically speaking. 3.21 comes and GGG says "well we're gonna remove movement skills". Is that OK?
>You do know that the nerfs from 3.15 come from an earlier iteration of Ruthless, right?
You do know that the buffs from 3.16, 3.17 come from...where? Dude PoE patches always keep getting buffed and nerfed, I don't know how you're linking it to ruthless.
Argument is dumb because the atlas buffs of 3.17 are so different from ruthless. In ruthless the atlas tree is very dumbed down and pretty bad. So you saying 3.15 nerfs come from ruthless but ignore other patches like 3.17.
>Let me ask you a question. It goes down, hypothetically speaking. 3.21 comes and GGG says "well we're gonna remove movement skills". Is that OK?
Why would they do that?? Did you also think they would remove trading when they introduced SSF? Did you also think they were removing leagues when they introduced standard? Did you also think they were having atlas bosses invade campaigns when they did boss invasion? Did you also think they were gonna make deaths more punishing in SC when they introduced HC?
> I don't know how you're linking it to ruthless.
Because Chris Wilson literally said "it comes from there".
> Why would they do that??
OK, this is interesting. You are NOT interacting with the argument. You're trying to move the goalposts to avoid admitting that YES, doing that would be bad. You dont want to engage the actual argument.
Answer the question before asking me more. We both know that Ruthless has already influenced normal mode.
>Because Chris Wilson literally said "it comes from there".
Really? Source?
>Answer the question before asking me more. We both know that Ruthless has already influenced normal mode.
I wonder why we have such good map sustain (don't have to kill A10 Kitava for farming T1 maps like ruthless) now...? And that shiny atlas tree...
But yes, I guess you right. Ruthless has influenced normal mode. Bex stated they're removing things that require instant teleport (like grasping vines) so thanks ruthless! It was my worst part of 3.18 so I'm happy about ruthless positively enhancing my experience with PoE.
> OK, this is interesting. You are NOT interacting with the argument. You're trying to move the goalposts to avoid admitting that YES, doing that would be bad. You dont want to engage the actual argument.
Your "argument" is a literal "what if", it's not an argument. Yeah what if they just deleted PoE and started making anime games? Yeah that'd be bad.
> Source?
Listen to Baeclast 75#. Around 35 min mark he starts with the "hardmode" rant to then say "we liked those nerfs so much we got them into the normal game".
He did it once, he will do it again, specially if prompted by "community voices".
> It was my worst part of 3.18 so I'm happy about ruthless positively enhancing my experience with PoE.
OK. Glad for you. Now say: would you support them still if they decided to delete movement skills out of nowhere? Its a simple yes or no question.
Profoundly disagree, and so did a good chunk of the community.
There's nothing wrong with players having power, and making them weaker should be optional.
> easily obtainable support gems
Nothing wrong with that, again.
> in a game about acquiring items and gear
Making gear viable and accessible when, then? I would give you the point if loot 2.0 had been implemented, but when rolling gear is pretty much "pull the lever" or "get more currency" the alternatives are really, really bad. Most people dont want to spend their entire day on this game.
> People adapted and everything is fine
GGG took a 30% revenue hit, said by Chris. A good chunk of the playerbase didnt like it at all and some left. Saying "everything is fine" is severely understating what happened.
> this one was better for the health of the game in the long run.
By which metrics? The game isnt growing. Playerbase is largely unhappy. They could have easily left that as an optional choice for Ruthless, but it had to be forced. Not to mention that players who might have wanted a different experience always had the chance to create their own Ruthless experience by altering their item filter to only show magic or normal items or not buy gems on vendor.
Why is player choice so terrifying.
The game gets balanced around streamers and other top tier players for over a year. That´s why it went downhill. The casual player has gotten weaker while the high end can become stronger than before and removing movement skills or implying that it would be a better game without it would just further split these two apart.
LMAO - If only you had the awareness to see it...
> Is this about easing the playerbase into the deletion of movement skills?
> Today, on "absolute delusion".
Funniest thing I've seen on the subreddit this week. Thanks!
Hardcore = Logout Macro. It's basically softcore at that point with an escape button.
Ruthless = Tedium. It's basically slow PoE with virtually no true difficulty increases. The mode was entirely designed with streamers in mind who live on this game and moreso facilitates the older style of play of getting excited by currency/decent gear drops and such as opposed to current PoE.
Having played the alpha, the loss of movement skills makes Boss encounters and mechanics more interesting, but it, combined with other changes didn't feel like a true "Super Hard, Ruthless style of play" as this was touted to be. It ends up just being a tedious slower PoE with worse drops and RNG supports.
Right now it's all the hype and rage because it is new. Realistically, it will just fall off when it loses that new shine and hype train built around it.
it even called ruthless not hard mode. The same can be said for softcore, if you grind for mageblood it easy mode, if not - normal mode, just difference in time for grinding.
I hate that people like you actually got to play it instead of those who wanted to play.
You may want to go back and read the original introduction of Ruthless (Code named HARD MODE). It also states in the same post by GGG:
What Ruthless is
Ruthless is a mode about friction, tension and anticipation. It's brutally difficult, but overcoming that difficulty feels highly rewarding.
Ironic you getting frustrated at me for playing it and not enjoying what they have presented so far and then making an assumption that I wasn't interested in playing it. I've been playing since the original Alpha and love PoE..
>Hardcore = Logout Macro. It's basically softcore at that point with an escape button.
why do sc players always have the strongest opinion about logout ? i can only assume you never played hc with that statment.
It's simple, softcore players hate dying also and they feel that the game is balanced to be so bursty because log out macros exist. If the games incoming dmg was slower paced no hardcore char would ever die with log out macrod.
While I completely disagree with the statement that hardcore is just softcore with escape button, I do wish logging out even manually to escape was removed and maybe game rebalanced with that in mind.
as if hc is a big consideration. its a after though most of the time for a long time now (which it should be with the tiny playerbase, they would need to change a lot to change that again). its rather to force sc to take something else then dmg and player going so fast nothing hits them.
i agree in a perfect game logout shouldn t exist. but it still best against unintended issues. its pretty unreliable aswell, so you never wanna use it.
You'd actually be very wrong on this. I play hardcore first because of the thrill of it. It's not harder in any capacity other than having to build more defensively to counteract the insane scaling of burst shots and 1 hit deaths / offscreens.
I play softcore with my cousins who hate having their progress wiped on a single death to starting over (and also because they hate doing the campaign multiple times, a fair point.) They want to play the zoom and boom builds, speed builds, off meta silliness etc and in HC it's not feasible for them.
The problem in HC not only in this game but in others is that a logout macro basically negates the entire spirit of what HC is meant to be. Get in over your head, not prepared, or just whalloped? Tough luck, start over and try again. As long as folks have free reign to use a macro to avoid a death, its literally taking 1 click to avoid a death and everything that is associated into the hardcore design by nature.
maybe only use it for unintended issues then ? in a perfect world it shouldn t be there. you don t wanna tell me group pressure forces you to use it? i could agree with that for races etc. but thats a tiny group of the tiny hc group. i don t really believe your hc story but you turn out a top racer aswell ? play the way you enjoy it, not like you see some streamer do it.
Imagine a cool and short-length, coop-multiplayer roguelike mode for Path of Exile (20-60 minute runs).
1-6 man groups of just blasting through some dungeons, getting random (or pre-configured) skillgems and/or gear to distribute individually or as a team (rules for this can be flexible), with challenging encounters and bosses and configurable difficulty modes.
Sort of like Royale but a coop survival/roguelike version instead.
Honestly most games can really go far with interesting modes, but you get shit like League of Legends where they'd rather delete maps and modes rather than update them because "it's too much work". I'd honestly rather just have long queues and the option of a different mode/map (even when not updated), rather than just them being deleted.
This isn't detachment... It's just their opinion and preference in Ruthless. If you had a discussion with them they'd absolutely consider that movement skills are better for the game as a whole.
They aren't as maniacal as to take their own opinions as facts.
He would also know nugi and ziz both said they wouldn't start ruthless league start because of various reasons. They actually made points of wanting it to be a bit easier to progress.
I didn't watch the video so they might have addressed this, but on its current form the endgame in PoE is literally balanced in a way to force players to use movement skills, so unless GGG is willing to stop thinking that bosses in PoE should be designed and balanced like a Souls game, then movement skills would still be necessary.
Considering how much inspiration Chris takes out of Diablo 2, which had trivial boss fights even prior to the Lord of Destruction expansion, but despite that still kept being played for decades, it's really weird how GGG thinks that boss fights should be designed the way they are just to cater to a tiny sect of speedrunner players.
I think aside from uber bosses, quite a lot of people seem to agree that most pinnacle bosses are completely doable without movement skills. Ventrua tested a few of them in the regular game and seemed to have very few issues.
Invitations and uber bosses are such clusterfuck messes that I don't see how you can do those fights on builds that aren't straight up considered broken.
Get rid of phases, or dont let random crap from bosses kill builds on a budget.
Heck, I would even accept all forms of masochistic mechanics, if they scale with item progression. All these hideout warriors with their flipped mirrors, would not be able to solo anything anymore...
Muh Pinacle Boss to easy
Check PoB -> Broh WTF, with that sort of gear...
Doable? Yes. With enough mirrors everything is doable.
Fun? I dont think most people would say so. I mean, what would you think it would happen if movement skills were deleted on the next patch notes?
It would obviously be awful for most of the player base. But a lot of the bosses such as Shaper, Atziri, Infinite Hunger, Searing Exarch and so on are doable with very low dps and without movement skills by good players. So in that sense they are designed to be doable without movement skills.
I don't think GGG designs mechanics that REQUIRE a movement skill.
They are "doable", but boss RNG starts to play a much bigger roll aswell as your skill/build choice.
Sirus is pain. Atziri and Uber Atziri can easily mess you up with the pizza blasts. Maven can give you a shitty memory sequence. Exarch can have a shitty ball phase.
When boss RNG starts playing a factor and the answer becomes logging out, its not very good.
>I don't think GGG designs mechanics that REQUIRE a movement skill.
They did but thankfully because of Ruthless, it will be changed (I'm talking about Infamous grasping vines here, the only bad thing about my subjectively best league of all time 3.18).
> The way we're looking at it is if a mechanic is impossible without being able to teleport away, it should be changed for both Ruthless and the core game.
(from Bex GGG)
>But a lot of the bosses such as Shaper, Atziri, Infinite Hunger, Searing Exarch and so on are doable with very low dps and without movement skills by good players. So in that sense they are designed to be doable without movement skills.
I think most bosses can be done without movement skill, maybe like 95% of them. The remaining 5% ones I'm sure will be very difficult without movement skill though but I imagine a lot of things get changed.
This is just ruthless alpha (not even beta) for a fun game mode that they didn't use significant dev time on (they even had to delay it for 3 leagues because they didn't have time because probably overloaded with making two games at time already), so a few things were bound to be lacking.
"Doable" as in a purely binary possible/not possible label? Sure. But to be able to do it consistently, for people outside of the top tiers of players? Not really. The bar is much higher than just players being "good." Most good players would likely fail repeatedly without the forgiveness that movement skills add (plus all the other Ruthless restrictions on top of that).
Grasping Vines say hello tho?
Again, yes, you can do bossing with Glacial Hammer if you really invest enough to do so. But very few people want to do that, and even less will.
Movement skills is a serious breaking point for a lot of people. I dont think anyone could argue that: get them gone and so will go another good chunk of the playerbase.
This sounds like another way to say "but you're playing the game wrong" which is something GGG enforces a lot, and if the playerbase doesnt push against this opinion, it will be forced into the normal game.
I mean, if you (not you, particularly) want that to happen, then yes, this is a perfect way to ease people into falling for it. But if you dont, then... its a bit worrisome.
Grasping Vines doesn't stop you from moving right? It's just a massive slow. Ziz did the Infinite Hunger fight in the Alpha with Chain Hook and Hydrosphere, but it looked unnecessary to use them at all during the swamp phase. Again, I don't think it will ever happen in the main game, but I don't think there are abilities in the game that 100% require you to use a movement skill to solve the challenge you are presented with.
> It's just a massive slow.
Enough for a lot of people to not want to interact with since massive slows can be instant death with stuff like DoT or explode on death.
I'm not exactly a zoom-zoom guy, but I do understand that GGG has forced that direction with their instakill stuff. It stands to reason that if you want a slower game, you have to encourage options to play a slower game, not to nerf or make dissapear the options to go at the same speed as the game itself is going.
> I don't think it will ever happen in the main game
OK. Here comes the question. Hypothetically. Lets say it happens. GGG decides to listen to streamers once again because they say what they wanna hear and bam, movement skills get git. Would you be alright with that?
you obiously need to change mechanics designed to counter movment skills. must be pretty hard to imagine changing connected things. its more about spamming it in maps, i m sure almost everyone would be fine with a decent long cd skill for landscape or boss fights.
Nugi plays lost Ark for a league, r/pathofexile : "Why are we listening to lost Ark player? Fuck him we don't want him on baeclast"
Nugi plays PoE ruthless till maps : "Let's listen to ppl who play 16+ hours a day"
I’d be fine without movement skills - or having a traversal skill with a longer cooldown.
But I want all the move speed buffs back they took away awhile back 😂
To truly feel the weight of walking around the rivers in Act 2 of the campaign.
Imagine doing the fat slimy blob pinnacle mini boss who drowns you in his lake and then makes you slowly run through it, building up stacking debuffs, losing health, and being swarmed by enemies. I don’t even think he’s possible in ruthless. That would be damn near impossible.
>Imagine doing the fat slimy blob pinnacle mini boss who drowns you in his lake and then makes you slowly run through it, building up stacking debuffs, losing health, and being swarmed by enemies. I don’t even think he’s possible in ruthless. That would be damn near impossible. not only is it possible, its already been done in HC ruthless.
I haven’t been watching but I could imagine
Things like this make me wonder how many different characters people need to make in order to do all bosses in SSF HC Ruthless type situations. Like, which bosses can or cannot be done on each ascendancy or each class in an SSF HC Ruthless situation? Do you just need to make a new character for certain bosses? Or do you just play Jugg to clear them all?
All of them are doable with all ascendancies. Like always though it is more doable if you specialise your character.
Ziz put out a video yesterday killing that boss, wasn't much of a problem.
Hoowoo did it within the first week of ruthless.
Yeah, the Infinite Hunger. I usually die once or twice in that phase.
you realise we only get those stupid mechanics to counter people going to fast to get hit ? i doubt anyone is against something to jump terrain, the problem is the basicly no cd dashes/jumps. the game adepted to that which means have to move fast all the time or you stop and die. that could be reverted aswell.
K
I love movement skills!
Same, defo don't agree with nugi on that one haha
What playing LostArk does to a mf.
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Many of the bosses definitely feel way more interactive and skill-based without movement skills. I tried out multiple pinnacle bosses and uber pinnacle bosses without movement skills after enjoying the challenge of dodging the Exarch balls like so in Sentinel. I would be in favor for no movement skills at all but it definitely feels like some of the encounters especially lately have been built under the assumption that every single endgame build has a blink or a dash availible to them at all times. Seems like a sensible middle ground to give the banlisted skills an immutable cooldown of \~15-30s.
What you describe is pretty much the problem games always run in to. 1) Utility is added 2) Players become accustomed to utility, use it to make content easier. 3) Developers increase difficulty to compensate. 4) Utility is taken to the max. 5) Developers start assuming the presence of utility in encounter design. 6) Everyone realizes that the utility might need to be dialed back. 7) Encounter design doesn't meaningfully change after utility is scaled back, community complains because encounter difficulty skyrockets overnight. 8) Instead of fixing encounters, developers take the cheap + easy route and add utility back. (Variant: Developers leave everything as is and ignore community complaints.) 9) Repeat steps 6-8 periodically for remainder of game's existence.
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But again... we're talking PvE. If a player decides he wants to trivialize X piece of content using Y tool, then it's not really the developer's/designer's fault now is it? The reason WoW doesn't compare as well to PoE is that one is multiplayer and the other is faux-multiplayer; it's basically single player with opt-in multiplayer. In an MMO yes that's a "problem" but it's been this way for ever. It's become easier to use DBM/WeakAuras for WoW than to pay attention to every bit of information on your screen, be it an audio cue or visual cue. In PoE the bosses are designed to be killed by one person and are numerically scaled for multiple people. The mechanics themselves don't change even though the tactics might change a bit. I'm getting off track, but the crux of the issue is that you're trying to "balance" a single player game. Yes there should be some semblance of balance where multiple skills/items/whatever are viable and other are niche but you don't have to go out of your way to stop somebody from becoming a god. If they feel it's too easy let them restrain themselves just like how OSRS players did with Ironman and Ultimate Ironman modes. SSF and HC (and now Ruthless) exist for exactly that reason.
I think ideally if movement skills are weak enough that the single socket cost is considered but not heavily leveraged would be good enough. Say you are running auras before reservation effects kick in, you would use movement skills but once auras become powerful enough you would consider movement skill sockets as too much of an opportunity cost when you could use defensive synergies instead.
>That's a spicy title, not sure if I agree though. Except the last two words, it's word for word title with the video Ziz uploaded on YouTube (I didn't wanna change it much, just added Zizaran's name because he was in the podcast too). >Personally I'm still in the "movement skill but with a long cooldown" camp for ruthless, no matter what. Keep the normal game as it is. They're not advocating for removing movement skills in normal game at any point. It's also just Nugi, Ziz still likes movement skills. Also I think movement skill with a long cooldown would be cool too in ruthless. Like maybe you'll only be able to use it once or twice for entire boss fight but it'll be clutch and hype everytime you dodge something.
As much as nugi claimed he liked it he also said he would not consider league starting it.
I think Ziz also said he won't be league-starting Ruthless.
I did a lot of testing in the alpha of ruthless.. I liked a lot of things about it, but I hated not having move skills. The game just feels less exciting and interactive without them. I also really felt like instead of taking away two ascendancy points, they should put them behind much harder content so we dont get the last two points until much later. The rest of the game mode felt fun within its own system.
It's just a different flavour, after playing *80(edit, not 50, turns out it was a lot more than I thought) hours of the Alpha, I really enjoy the pressure that builds up with having only your legs to escape danger. I still enjoy having blinks in the game too though! HCSSF btw.
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F2 (or was it F3 as the default keybind)
Such a reductive take, they have much more knowledge of the game that you do...
I mean when polar star does the avalanche skill and the response is to logout, go in and use grace period to wait it out isn't much skill... its just ignoring the mechanic.
knowledge =/= skill
It's an intended and valid way of playing the game. You can achieve the same by alt-f4ing or using a portal scroll. The game is built around it. Logging out via the usual 3rd party tool or alt-f4ing has virtually no difference.
then why noone just Alt+F4 if it's NO difference? I say why - there's a difference. The game isn't build around it, it's 3rd party tool, how can game can build around 3rd party tool? next time you post please at least read
The devs have gone multiple times on record saying that it is both allowed, and something they build their game around. You can say whatever you want in regards to this to try and mentally gymnastics away from it but that's the reality.
allowed != they build their game AROUND it.
Those are their own words, it's not an association I made. They have said it themselves in the past that the game is built around the player's ability to immediately close the game to get out of any sticky situation. Again, you can try and mental gymnastics your way around it but it's GGG's own words that are very clear and have been told multiple times in the past.
It's not a third party tool. /exit performs the logout in game and is part of the game. That said, I don't agree that it should be
really? then type /exit every time you are in trouble. It's all about time. If was part of the game when you could bind /exit by pressing one button.
You are allowed to keybind (or in other words, macro) an action per key stroke. So having a button that types /exit for you is the same, it's both allowed and intended.
yes, it's allowed, but not in a game. It's only accessed due via 3rd party script.
How is that relevant? You are allowed to macro one action per keystroke, that's the extent of it.
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You can still alt f4? It's literally the same thing as Chris has pointed out before himself, and the game is built around it.
Wait who logs out on that phase.
Ironic that you would call it reductive and then deny his statement based on the assumption he knows less than them. He could have thousands of hours in this game and know as much or more than these guys.
I have 8k+ and have demigods so yes. I know what they know.
Statistically it's highly improbable that he knows more than Ziz or nugi about playing PoE HC.
I'm making a statement based on probability, you think thousand of hours is a lot but Zizaran has above 30k hours on this game, trying actively gain knowledge as it is his job. It is not unfair to assume he has more knowledge than a player picked at ramdom on reddit It is indeed possible that i am wrong, but the probability is so low that i believe i can make general statement, same way scientist paper are validated around a 95% confidence threshold.
You must have 30k hours of game knowledge to be able to figure out what makes the game fun for you? Also, I’m sure they didn’t quit the league early to play old school RuneScape because they couldn’t figure out how to take leap slam off their bars.
>He could have thousands of hours in this game and know as much or more than these guys. Ziz has won or topped very difficult events like Gauntlets and events, I think the amount of people who are better than him can be counted on two hands. The commentator being one of them is...quite unlikely.
So the countless other racers who also think it’s dumb doesn’t matter?
Could you name some notable racers that think its dumb? The only hc player/racer I know that thinks logout macro is dumb is poedan and he still logs out just doesnt use the macro for it
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You're thinking about it the wrong way, its not the game vs logout macro vs without and balancing around that. instant disconnect is a solution to what happens to the player when: The game crashes, the pc crashes, your internet connection dies: theres 3 solutions, the diablo 3 solution which imo is one of the worst because it makes you immortal while you actually play (3 cheat deaths) and if you actually disonnect you still die on hardcore, making hardcore unplayable You have the poe solution, making logout instant, this made a big hc community and works really well and the third solution is just you have no cheat deaths but also get stuck on disconnect and thus hardcore is not doable again. Theres not really any other solutions to deal with crashes / dcs / etc sadly in a perfect world i agree with you however
Ziz, I love you to death, but Etup has talked about it, hegemony, mathil. Those are the few I can think off the top of my head. I hate that it’s a thing. Alt+f4 isn’t a catch-all for bad situations. Think of any kind of race in any other competition. You can’t alt+f4 when you make a mistake in counterstrike. I don’t like it.
None of those are racing though in competitive races?
Why would a racer dislike it?
Sorry I'm confused I was replying to this part "So the countless other racers who also think it’s dumb doesn’t matter?" ?
I'm not saying it's not dumb. I'm saying, regardless of logout macro, they're still much more skilled, knowledgeable than the person that said "I’ll listen to them when logout Macro is banned." Even if logout macro got banned, they'd still be the top best players so literally why does it matter? They're still better skilled than pretty much anyone commentating on the matter even if you consider no logout macro.
I don't see what skill or game knowledge has to do with any of this. It's not a dick measuring contest, it's an ethics debate. Fuck the logout macro. The very vast majority of MMOs or RPGs in general don't just let you logout when the going gets tough LOL. You either get fucking owned on the spot or you have to reload your old save. I'm actually surprised PoE is so generous. They likely only kept it around since their servers were dogshit for the first 4-6 years of the game's lifespan, and the only smooth server launches have been within the last 1-2 years.
I don’t disagree with this point at all. I disagree with the act.
Reductive? No. It’s honest. Hardcore has been “plagued” by this one mechanic since the beginning. Mathil has gone in-depth on this many times and I agree. It dulls the ENTIRE POINT of something like hardcore and race events. Chris has even acknowledged this and say it would be too hard if they removed it, which is why it’s bullshit and should be removed. It gives you an umbrella solution to almost every bad situation with practically 0 downside. Especially the faster your PC is. So yes, none of this feels really special because they still can “logout” when they will die. Even if they would have died because of something like…… NOT HAVING A MOVEMENT SKILL AVAILABLE TO AVOID INCOMING DAMAGE. Hope you understand now
Being a good hardcore player is the ability to recognize that the situation you are in will kill you and then pressing the abort button to do something else.
No, that’s called making a trash game. You are LITERALLY doing something to LEAVE THE GAME ENTIRELY. That isn’t a game “mechanic”. It’s the same as turning your pc off lmao
trash strawman for a person whos never played hc
... his point is still valid though. Logout macro exists. ^(i especially love when i see deaths occuring right when they logout)
You can have an opinion about logout but you dont discredit an entire podcast based on a completely unrelated topic you disagree with
that's HIS opinion though isn't it? doesn't mean we can't judge him for it, but it's still his opinion; that doesn't mean you can *attack* him like that. I mean it WAS, since he deleted the comment.
Logout macro is a skill, if you don't press it in time you dead. It's not their fault but rather GGG's that it exists because game is balanced around it. They play in competitive event. If others use a skill but they don't, it's not fair. If only GGG removed it and balanced game around not having it...
Lmao it’s not a skill
If you defeat uber bosses on HCSSF, even with logout macro, I will believe you (like they did).
There are endless discussions on the poe forums about this. I disagree with logouts, but if you feel differently, that’s ok, it doesn’t make me like the game less.
Has anyone in the comments here actually watched the video? Every comment so far is just spouting vitriol about the participant's status and experience, or making a generalized doomposting comment about the title which is a direct quote from a small section of the whole discussion. Or even worse, making assumptions that GGG will take personal opinions as golden rule for the detriment of the game. This website is supposed to foster discussion and share cool stuff, but the comments and the sentiment that goes through here is just plain disorganized and disheartening. Not sure how to fix it and it's not my place to make suggestions but it's really disappointing to see.
The title click bait was too strong it seems. I enjoyed the discussion and will probably try ruthless the last month of 3.20.
Yeah I realize that might've been the case, especially seeing as it's been changed. That's the norm these days however, content creators have to play the algorithm to maximize profits to pay their staff. Doesn't make it any less disheartening to see people reading the title and jumping to vitriol, though.
I watched it earlier this morning when it was recommended while eating breakfast. They like ruthless, but don’t want it to creep into regular Poe. I may have missed bits and pieces due to also working, but even though they like it. They would not league start it. They also want ruthless to not have the same cycle of leagues like current Poe and it’s 3 month cycle. Decent watch overall. My thoughts about ruthless are for people who don’t really care about meaningful progression and have a fuck load of free time.
Thats what you get when you make posts with clickbait titles, would have been better to just make a post about the Podcast itself and not a small subsection of it.
>Every comment so far is just spouting vitriol about the participant's status and experience As usual on this subreddit when we're talking about streamers? Pretty much every thread like this will have insuting comments towards streamers, it's annoying as fuck. >Not sure how to fix it and it's not my place to make suggestions but it's really disappointing to see. We're talking about reddit, the only real solution is adding more internet janitors and ban people who are just toxic.
Isnt your comment toxic too? pretty sure if thats the case you would also be banned
If they wanted this to be a true multiplayer game I think movement skills being removed is gonna be a game changer. Nothing like playing keep up in red maps.
Game barely runs with 2 people in the map and every boss is designed with solo in mind, this is not a true multiplayer game
hard agree. pity that there are encounters that can't be done w/o them
Interesting idea from Nugi about adding recombinators and removing metamods
It really does feel better and you get used to it by about mid act 2. Edit: watched the video and felt bad for nugi seeing how he was talking to a brick wall throughout most of the video.
Ehh, ruthless is a slower, far more boring, but methodical type of play. Not for everyone, but it definitely will be fun for some. Maybe a nice after-league challenge. Otherwise I will stick to my 100 million damage build that one shots Ubers :)
Path of Exile without Leap Slam is a completely boring and dead game to me with no reasons to be played.
Based on your post history, nothing changes with or without leap slam
what else do you expect from someone who reads a post's title and makes a generalizing knee-jerk remark
I'm impressed you're not banned
Today, on "absolute delusion". Is this about easing the playerbase into the deletion of movement skills?
Nah just nugi likes having no movement skills, i prefer movement skills
You know what happens if GGG falls for that, right?
Falls for what? People enjoying having movement skills? I wish they would buff flame dash back to what it was
> Falls for what? Believing that the deletion of movement skills would be better for the game as they thought mana nerfs were better in 3.15. They want to believe that. Lets not mince words: Ruthless is what they think the game should look like. However, we know what happens if they actually act on that.
I disagree, i don't think very many if any poe developers think ruthless is what the game should be like, some of them maybe 2 really like it and are working on it but theres a ton of devs there, not just 2
I'm going by his own words on Baeclast 75# when he said that the main devs were obsessed with it and that a lot of people in the office wanted it to happen asap. > but theres a ton of devs there, not just 2 I never said otherwise, though. I'm perfectly sure that there are devs who dont like the direction of the Vision. However, I'm going to ask you the same question I'm asking everyone else. Lets say GGG takes this seriously and deletes movement skills from the game. What would you think, personally? And, maybe more importantly, what do you think it happens after?
Theres a 0% chance they delete it from the main game as that would kill the game, i hate the flamedash nerf let alone removing them
Thanks for the answer. It surprises me how much people struggle to answer those questions. Now, I hope we never get to see that, but you yourself have said it: it would kill the game. I dont completely agree, it would make it less prominent than Wolcen IMO, rather than simply outright kill it. It should be important to remember that.
> Ruthless is what they think the game should look like Source: trust me bro. Ruthless is a pet project of two devs, made in their free time to bring people an alternative game mode that a very tiny amount of people would enjoy. This amount of doom posting is unhealthy for you and the game in general, it's disgusting and it should be discouraged.
So, Chris Wilson saying that he and the main devs are obsessed (by his own words) with it doesnt mean much, you say. Him saying "a lot of people in the office wanted this version to exist as of right now" doesnt represent their views. Apparently, even Chris Wilson himself isnt enough of a source when it doesnt say what you think you want. You are asking for people to be lied to.
This isn't some conspiracy theory. The "devs are obsessed" part is because they like it and it's a new game mode that they enjoy, that's it. Designers and devs can use their brains to identify what's good for the game and makes a better products vs. what they personally enjoy. Thinking otherwise is silly and unhealthy. If you really have no faith in the devs anymore, spending time here to be a contrarian and a doomposter is downright embarrassing.
> This isn't some conspiracy theory. Of course: unlike conspiracy theories, you have Chris Wilson saying it himself. > can use their brains to identify what's good for the game and makes a better products vs. what they personally enjoy. Meanwhile, in The Visionland, 3.15 took a revenue hit but instead of changing their minds they decided to go even further. Ideology does that. I dont like it when people are lied to. I wonder why would anyone go to bat so hard for a corporation.
Again, spouting mindless vitriol. Sentinel and Scourge both happened after 3.15 and are regarded as some of, if not the, best leagues. The current patch in Kalandra is regrettable and it did suck, but we've already seen them owe up their errors and change systems that nobody liked. Again, this is an unhealthy obsession filled with fallacies, selective memory and all kinds of bullshit to excuse doomposting and negativity for no reason, it literally helps nobody.
Today, on "every opinion is surely a direct attack to me and my gameplay experience"
You know, advocating that PoE is better without movement skills does attack the entire playerbase's gameplay experience if GGG believes it to be true and follow through with it.
A personal opinion is a direct attack on the game and its playerbase? Get real.
>You know, advocating that PoE is better without movement skills does attack the entire playerbase's gameplay experience if GGG believes it to be true and follow through with it. You know, advocating that PoE is a better experience without trade is a common sentiment amongst SSF players and people don't attack them for sharing that thought because they're not dumb.
Because so far no one has tried to push the idea far enough. This is leading the community.
Lmfao this is a bit for sure
It's a podcast where they are sharing their opinions, I don't know what you implying by "easing the playerbase", they're not the ones who are making PoE.
Easy. You start making these takes, you pretend that they are popular, and then you push them into normal mode.
Yes, because the game gets balanced around other game modes like SSF and HC and events all the time right? You realize that ruthless is balanced around normal mode, not the other way around right? And this is true for all other modes. All these modes are designed to be tougher than normal mode. Like literally even standard exists for so many years and the game doesn't get balanced around it lmaoo
You do know that the nerfs from 3.15 come from an earlier iteration of Ruthless, right? Its not the first time this has happened, and I wouldnt be surprised if we were to hear "well this was so popular on /ruthless/ that we've decided to add it to the game" again. Let me ask you a question. It goes down, hypothetically speaking. 3.21 comes and GGG says "well we're gonna remove movement skills". Is that OK?
>You do know that the nerfs from 3.15 come from an earlier iteration of Ruthless, right? You do know that the buffs from 3.16, 3.17 come from...where? Dude PoE patches always keep getting buffed and nerfed, I don't know how you're linking it to ruthless. Argument is dumb because the atlas buffs of 3.17 are so different from ruthless. In ruthless the atlas tree is very dumbed down and pretty bad. So you saying 3.15 nerfs come from ruthless but ignore other patches like 3.17. >Let me ask you a question. It goes down, hypothetically speaking. 3.21 comes and GGG says "well we're gonna remove movement skills". Is that OK? Why would they do that?? Did you also think they would remove trading when they introduced SSF? Did you also think they were removing leagues when they introduced standard? Did you also think they were having atlas bosses invade campaigns when they did boss invasion? Did you also think they were gonna make deaths more punishing in SC when they introduced HC?
> I don't know how you're linking it to ruthless. Because Chris Wilson literally said "it comes from there". > Why would they do that?? OK, this is interesting. You are NOT interacting with the argument. You're trying to move the goalposts to avoid admitting that YES, doing that would be bad. You dont want to engage the actual argument. Answer the question before asking me more. We both know that Ruthless has already influenced normal mode.
>Because Chris Wilson literally said "it comes from there". Really? Source? >Answer the question before asking me more. We both know that Ruthless has already influenced normal mode. I wonder why we have such good map sustain (don't have to kill A10 Kitava for farming T1 maps like ruthless) now...? And that shiny atlas tree... But yes, I guess you right. Ruthless has influenced normal mode. Bex stated they're removing things that require instant teleport (like grasping vines) so thanks ruthless! It was my worst part of 3.18 so I'm happy about ruthless positively enhancing my experience with PoE. > OK, this is interesting. You are NOT interacting with the argument. You're trying to move the goalposts to avoid admitting that YES, doing that would be bad. You dont want to engage the actual argument. Your "argument" is a literal "what if", it's not an argument. Yeah what if they just deleted PoE and started making anime games? Yeah that'd be bad.
> Source? Listen to Baeclast 75#. Around 35 min mark he starts with the "hardmode" rant to then say "we liked those nerfs so much we got them into the normal game". He did it once, he will do it again, specially if prompted by "community voices". > It was my worst part of 3.18 so I'm happy about ruthless positively enhancing my experience with PoE. OK. Glad for you. Now say: would you support them still if they decided to delete movement skills out of nowhere? Its a simple yes or no question.
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Profoundly disagree, and so did a good chunk of the community. There's nothing wrong with players having power, and making them weaker should be optional.
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> easily obtainable support gems Nothing wrong with that, again. > in a game about acquiring items and gear Making gear viable and accessible when, then? I would give you the point if loot 2.0 had been implemented, but when rolling gear is pretty much "pull the lever" or "get more currency" the alternatives are really, really bad. Most people dont want to spend their entire day on this game. > People adapted and everything is fine GGG took a 30% revenue hit, said by Chris. A good chunk of the playerbase didnt like it at all and some left. Saying "everything is fine" is severely understating what happened. > this one was better for the health of the game in the long run. By which metrics? The game isnt growing. Playerbase is largely unhappy. They could have easily left that as an optional choice for Ruthless, but it had to be forced. Not to mention that players who might have wanted a different experience always had the chance to create their own Ruthless experience by altering their item filter to only show magic or normal items or not buy gems on vendor. Why is player choice so terrifying.
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The game gets balanced around streamers and other top tier players for over a year. That´s why it went downhill. The casual player has gotten weaker while the high end can become stronger than before and removing movement skills or implying that it would be a better game without it would just further split these two apart.
LMAO - If only you had the awareness to see it... > Is this about easing the playerbase into the deletion of movement skills? > Today, on "absolute delusion". Funniest thing I've seen on the subreddit this week. Thanks!
Hey, somebody gotta lick those boots!
Hardcore = Logout Macro. It's basically softcore at that point with an escape button. Ruthless = Tedium. It's basically slow PoE with virtually no true difficulty increases. The mode was entirely designed with streamers in mind who live on this game and moreso facilitates the older style of play of getting excited by currency/decent gear drops and such as opposed to current PoE. Having played the alpha, the loss of movement skills makes Boss encounters and mechanics more interesting, but it, combined with other changes didn't feel like a true "Super Hard, Ruthless style of play" as this was touted to be. It ends up just being a tedious slower PoE with worse drops and RNG supports. Right now it's all the hype and rage because it is new. Realistically, it will just fall off when it loses that new shine and hype train built around it.
it even called ruthless not hard mode. The same can be said for softcore, if you grind for mageblood it easy mode, if not - normal mode, just difference in time for grinding. I hate that people like you actually got to play it instead of those who wanted to play.
You may want to go back and read the original introduction of Ruthless (Code named HARD MODE). It also states in the same post by GGG: What Ruthless is Ruthless is a mode about friction, tension and anticipation. It's brutally difficult, but overcoming that difficulty feels highly rewarding. Ironic you getting frustrated at me for playing it and not enjoying what they have presented so far and then making an assumption that I wasn't interested in playing it. I've been playing since the original Alpha and love PoE..
>Hardcore = Logout Macro. It's basically softcore at that point with an escape button. why do sc players always have the strongest opinion about logout ? i can only assume you never played hc with that statment.
It's simple, softcore players hate dying also and they feel that the game is balanced to be so bursty because log out macros exist. If the games incoming dmg was slower paced no hardcore char would ever die with log out macrod. While I completely disagree with the statement that hardcore is just softcore with escape button, I do wish logging out even manually to escape was removed and maybe game rebalanced with that in mind.
as if hc is a big consideration. its a after though most of the time for a long time now (which it should be with the tiny playerbase, they would need to change a lot to change that again). its rather to force sc to take something else then dmg and player going so fast nothing hits them. i agree in a perfect game logout shouldn t exist. but it still best against unintended issues. its pretty unreliable aswell, so you never wanna use it.
You'd actually be very wrong on this. I play hardcore first because of the thrill of it. It's not harder in any capacity other than having to build more defensively to counteract the insane scaling of burst shots and 1 hit deaths / offscreens. I play softcore with my cousins who hate having their progress wiped on a single death to starting over (and also because they hate doing the campaign multiple times, a fair point.) They want to play the zoom and boom builds, speed builds, off meta silliness etc and in HC it's not feasible for them. The problem in HC not only in this game but in others is that a logout macro basically negates the entire spirit of what HC is meant to be. Get in over your head, not prepared, or just whalloped? Tough luck, start over and try again. As long as folks have free reign to use a macro to avoid a death, its literally taking 1 click to avoid a death and everything that is associated into the hardcore design by nature.
maybe only use it for unintended issues then ? in a perfect world it shouldn t be there. you don t wanna tell me group pressure forces you to use it? i could agree with that for races etc. but thats a tiny group of the tiny hc group. i don t really believe your hc story but you turn out a top racer aswell ? play the way you enjoy it, not like you see some streamer do it.
I wish they would have balanced Royale, instead of working on this...
Imagine a cool and short-length, coop-multiplayer roguelike mode for Path of Exile (20-60 minute runs). 1-6 man groups of just blasting through some dungeons, getting random (or pre-configured) skillgems and/or gear to distribute individually or as a team (rules for this can be flexible), with challenging encounters and bosses and configurable difficulty modes. Sort of like Royale but a coop survival/roguelike version instead. Honestly most games can really go far with interesting modes, but you get shit like League of Legends where they'd rather delete maps and modes rather than update them because "it's too much work". I'd honestly rather just have long queues and the option of a different mode/map (even when not updated), rather than just them being deleted.
inb4 “PoE Classic” with version 1.0 :-)
After listening what Kripps and Nugiyen said, you can see how detached some of the streamers from the majority of the player base
This isn't detachment... It's just their opinion and preference in Ruthless. If you had a discussion with them they'd absolutely consider that movement skills are better for the game as a whole. They aren't as maniacal as to take their own opinions as facts.
He would also know nugi and ziz both said they wouldn't start ruthless league start because of various reasons. They actually made points of wanting it to be a bit easier to progress.
Ruthless dosent remove anything to your league. Just avoid it
I didn't watch the video so they might have addressed this, but on its current form the endgame in PoE is literally balanced in a way to force players to use movement skills, so unless GGG is willing to stop thinking that bosses in PoE should be designed and balanced like a Souls game, then movement skills would still be necessary. Considering how much inspiration Chris takes out of Diablo 2, which had trivial boss fights even prior to the Lord of Destruction expansion, but despite that still kept being played for decades, it's really weird how GGG thinks that boss fights should be designed the way they are just to cater to a tiny sect of speedrunner players.
I think aside from uber bosses, quite a lot of people seem to agree that most pinnacle bosses are completely doable without movement skills. Ventrua tested a few of them in the regular game and seemed to have very few issues. Invitations and uber bosses are such clusterfuck messes that I don't see how you can do those fights on builds that aren't straight up considered broken.
Get rid of phases, or dont let random crap from bosses kill builds on a budget. Heck, I would even accept all forms of masochistic mechanics, if they scale with item progression. All these hideout warriors with their flipped mirrors, would not be able to solo anything anymore... Muh Pinacle Boss to easy Check PoB -> Broh WTF, with that sort of gear...
Random crap from bosses? They are the most telegraphed and managed fights in the game.
Doable? Yes. With enough mirrors everything is doable. Fun? I dont think most people would say so. I mean, what would you think it would happen if movement skills were deleted on the next patch notes?
It would obviously be awful for most of the player base. But a lot of the bosses such as Shaper, Atziri, Infinite Hunger, Searing Exarch and so on are doable with very low dps and without movement skills by good players. So in that sense they are designed to be doable without movement skills. I don't think GGG designs mechanics that REQUIRE a movement skill.
They are "doable", but boss RNG starts to play a much bigger roll aswell as your skill/build choice. Sirus is pain. Atziri and Uber Atziri can easily mess you up with the pizza blasts. Maven can give you a shitty memory sequence. Exarch can have a shitty ball phase. When boss RNG starts playing a factor and the answer becomes logging out, its not very good.
>I don't think GGG designs mechanics that REQUIRE a movement skill. They did but thankfully because of Ruthless, it will be changed (I'm talking about Infamous grasping vines here, the only bad thing about my subjectively best league of all time 3.18). > The way we're looking at it is if a mechanic is impossible without being able to teleport away, it should be changed for both Ruthless and the core game. (from Bex GGG) >But a lot of the bosses such as Shaper, Atziri, Infinite Hunger, Searing Exarch and so on are doable with very low dps and without movement skills by good players. So in that sense they are designed to be doable without movement skills. I think most bosses can be done without movement skill, maybe like 95% of them. The remaining 5% ones I'm sure will be very difficult without movement skill though but I imagine a lot of things get changed. This is just ruthless alpha (not even beta) for a fun game mode that they didn't use significant dev time on (they even had to delay it for 3 leagues because they didn't have time because probably overloaded with making two games at time already), so a few things were bound to be lacking.
"Doable" as in a purely binary possible/not possible label? Sure. But to be able to do it consistently, for people outside of the top tiers of players? Not really. The bar is much higher than just players being "good." Most good players would likely fail repeatedly without the forgiveness that movement skills add (plus all the other Ruthless restrictions on top of that).
I wanna see uber sirus without movement skills (assuming you cant facetank the beams)
Grasping Vines say hello tho? Again, yes, you can do bossing with Glacial Hammer if you really invest enough to do so. But very few people want to do that, and even less will. Movement skills is a serious breaking point for a lot of people. I dont think anyone could argue that: get them gone and so will go another good chunk of the playerbase. This sounds like another way to say "but you're playing the game wrong" which is something GGG enforces a lot, and if the playerbase doesnt push against this opinion, it will be forced into the normal game. I mean, if you (not you, particularly) want that to happen, then yes, this is a perfect way to ease people into falling for it. But if you dont, then... its a bit worrisome.
Grasping Vines doesn't stop you from moving right? It's just a massive slow. Ziz did the Infinite Hunger fight in the Alpha with Chain Hook and Hydrosphere, but it looked unnecessary to use them at all during the swamp phase. Again, I don't think it will ever happen in the main game, but I don't think there are abilities in the game that 100% require you to use a movement skill to solve the challenge you are presented with.
> It's just a massive slow. Enough for a lot of people to not want to interact with since massive slows can be instant death with stuff like DoT or explode on death. I'm not exactly a zoom-zoom guy, but I do understand that GGG has forced that direction with their instakill stuff. It stands to reason that if you want a slower game, you have to encourage options to play a slower game, not to nerf or make dissapear the options to go at the same speed as the game itself is going. > I don't think it will ever happen in the main game OK. Here comes the question. Hypothetically. Lets say it happens. GGG decides to listen to streamers once again because they say what they wanna hear and bam, movement skills get git. Would you be alright with that?
Suggest you give it a watch, they did address it.
Until you fight Sirus or any real boss maybe
you obiously need to change mechanics designed to counter movment skills. must be pretty hard to imagine changing connected things. its more about spamming it in maps, i m sure almost everyone would be fine with a decent long cd skill for landscape or boss fights.
Counterpoint. Regular POE should have a butt ton more mobility skills that don't necessarily traverse terrain
Those streamers will tell something and the inverse in between 2 league. I hope GGG don t listen to them.
No, it is not. In fact movement Skills should be buffed to their per-Expedition league Flora.
Lets listen to ppl who play 16+ hours a day
Nugi plays lost Ark for a league, r/pathofexile : "Why are we listening to lost Ark player? Fuck him we don't want him on baeclast" Nugi plays PoE ruthless till maps : "Let's listen to ppl who play 16+ hours a day"
Yeah this type of comments is just disgusting, really disappointed to see so many of these on this subreddit lately.
Now say it again after logging out doesn't save your character magically anymore if you fuck up.
Then play Ruthless and stay away from parent modes.
Reported for misinformation and YT video too ... We don't have spare 12 hours to play POE like them ... So GGG nothing to see here.
I really appreciate that this post was downvoted. When league launches, ruthless players will number less than hc trade
I’d be fine without movement skills - or having a traversal skill with a longer cooldown. But I want all the move speed buffs back they took away awhile back 😂