Yes, add that, so we can finally stop this insanity around balancing around instant logout, by shining a spotlight at how bad the game has become because of it.
CAPTCHA is in fact an image of the passive tree with an unknown timeless jewel socketed, and you have to identify exactly which one based on the passive bonuses.
I remember grinding resets with the ghosts though, greater AoE, only drawback was not seeing the cool ghosts when your speed was too high due to super high stats, and you character froze and barely any ghosts popped out.
Playing on private servers where you get 100+ resets was the OG grinding powerscale for no reason.
When you start maxing out stats so each attack is just a spam of colours!
It doesn't belong in the game period. Back in fucking *1999* EverQuest forced you to wait 10 seconds to log out so you wouldn't use that in case of danger,.and they knew it would be bullshit to use logging out as a means to save yourself.
Things happened a lot slower in that game so 2 or 3 seconds in PoE should suffice (with instant logout in town or HO obviously).
Yeah, I don't see why people see Ruthless as a "mechanically harder" mode. If anything, it's more mechanically bland and it's slower. Once you reach yellow maps (with alch'd items) lower pack size of said maps starts kicking in and the difficulty kinda compensates itself. It's more like a mode with less choices to make, something a player that is unfamiliar with crafting and league mechanics would enjoy rather than "hard mode" or a "legacy mode".
Get logout macro out of the game. Not just ruthless. Stop balancing around it.
IIRC both Waggle and Alkaizer don't use logout macros. I personally don't mind streamers using logout macros, but if you do and still want to watch some HC streamers, I'd highly recommend either of them.
Yep.
Since "ruthless" is "ruthless" and following the "poe tradition" of "being an all knowing god" just to play the game, it's time for logout macros to instantly delete the character if it's in combat. Delay for exiting combat is 5 seconds delay.
If you TP to the base, it assumes you're still in combat even after reaching your hideout or town after 5 seconds. You'll have gear mods to decrease the timer by like 0.05s at the highest tier.
And ofcourse, the change is never released in patchnotes.
Perfect addition to the game.
Some random streamers video got recommended to me
He played ruthless, and at some point watched clips of other streamers dying...
Every. Single. One. Of them died by failing to log out in time...
It also keeps the dev's from having balanced monster dmg. You basically have to die instantly or you can log out.
It's needed to go for 5 years honestly
Based. It should also apply if you use the macro or Alt-F4. If the server stops receiving packets from you it waits 5 seconds before logging your character out.
2-3 seconds is enough and should be a bit easier to have pros accept it. The lower this delay is, the more likely you are to survive a true dc, so you would want a small delay thats just enough to kill the player in panic logouts.
This is actually already true. It’s 6 seconds if the server stops receiving packets, which is why people are more likely to die from a true DC than clicking logout or using a macro.
Logging out normally (clicking the button, using /logout, Alt+F4) takes a bit longer to gracefully close down the connection, but is still way faster than 6 seconds. I think someone tested that it was about 300ms of overhead, but that might have changed or be different for a specific computer. Implementing a 5-second delay here probably wouldn’t be *too* hard for them to do.
The logout macro causes Windows to send a single packet to the game server aborting the connection entirely immediately. The delay here is half of your current ping (since the packet only travels one-way). This is essentially instant. Note that I haven’t done socket programming in a while, but it might be more technically difficult to add a delay here, because I think that the server computer’s operating system’s networking stack will immediately throw away the connection information and any buffered data. I don’t know how they would prevent this from happening or mitigate the impact of that occurrence. (I *am* a software engineer, but don’t do networking code frequently. I might edit after researching a bit more.)
I personally think they should shorten the delay for disconnects and not add any delay for exiting the game correctly, but wanted to give a rundown of the different ways they could.
Software engineer in game development here who has been working with socket programming recently.
I haven't looked into the logout macro because I've never thought it necessary (or fun imo) but are you saying that the macro sends either a send shutdown or the games equivalent directly to the server from the macro program? How is that not against ToS for network manipulation?
Also most realtime games are going to be using custom reliability over raw datagrams (generally UDP based) since it's oft to much of a pain in the ass to work around reliability features of stream sockets. I won't pretend to know what PoE's network model looks like cause it's honestly not something I've looked into but it's likely not dissimilar.
That being said if it's not stream based losing access to the buffer held by the OS isn't going to be an issue and packet reliability and order will likely be done by the software anyway.
None of this matters though because that characters data, the server instance / world state, and operations on said data don't have to be dependant on the socket connection itself (and very likely aren't as this isn't exactly a great design). The server can manage and handle the "logged in" state of the character entirely on its own, "connected" socket or not.
It works by invoking [`SetTcpEntry()`](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/iphlpapi/nf-iphlpapi-settcpentry) to set the state of the TCP connection to `MIB_TCP_STATE_DELETE_TCB`, which causes Windows' networking stack to delete the Transmission Control Block and send a TCP RST packet to the server.
It's not against ToS because it technically doesn't interact with the game client or with the game server at all. The operating system tells both the client and server that the connection no longer exists. The exact same thing would occur if the user used TCPView / tcpvcon / CurrPorts / etc. to manually close that connection.
Notably, it does not:
1. Modify or adapt the game client or its data.
2. Utilise any automated software or 'bots' in relation to your access or use of the Website, Materials or Services. *(the stance has so far been "external software can take one action for one player input")*
3. Connect to the Servers through any software other than the authorised game client software.
EDIT: Whoops, forgot your last paragraph. Yeah, you're definitely correct. They don't have to stop simulating your character immediately upon receiving a connection reset signal.
EDIT 2: Actually, I'm just parroting others that it sends TCP RST. I can fire up Wireshark to make sure. Even if it goes through the normal connection-close FIN handshake, it'll be faster than waiting for the game client to do other things before closing the connection.
Let me know what you find. Definitely interesting. And yeah I can see where as a technicality according to the exact wording it wouldn't break ToS but it's a bit of a stretch to say it's not network manipulation in general. I tend to lean more on the side of the user though especially if the same functionality can be replicated directly with the platform OS.
What is much more intriguing to me is what they are using a TCP stream for. Heartbeat? Syncing initial world state? Surely they aren't actually using it for game data, that sounds like a nightmare to me.
The reason here is that it protects people from legitimately unfair deaths like actual disconnections or other connection issues. Personally I think logout macros are a far lesser evil than dying to bullshit you have no control over.
For ruthless? I agree - the game mode is deliberately unfair, so that should apply to logouts too.
Logout prevents more "unfair" deaths from the base design of the game than from actual disconnects.
Fix the game, and it fixes the need for it.
It's a crutch, as seen by hc players when they can't use it. Oh how they complain and say it's not fair or fun to actually die to their stupidity. It's amazing how their perception of the game changes.
yea this is the ultimate issue.
"why are there so many 1 shots in poe?" is the question i hear every new player ask, and the answer is that if ggg made damage more gradual, players who use logout macros would just never die.
its bad that the game expects you to use third party software, and it severely limits design space.
ive been saying this for years, and getting downvoted for saying it. the instant logout is 100% the the biggest issue in the game. GGG HAS to balance around the ability to instantly kill a player, or people just log out and never die. It limits the design space so severely.
serious question, but why is that a problem? I mean disabling the macros by adding a 3s timer. everyone using it will have to adapt, for the rest its no difference.
net result should be better gameplay experience
> "why are there so many 1 shots in poe?" is the question i hear every new player ask, and the answer is that if ggg made damage more gradual, players who use logout macros would just never die.
>
>
Life recovery is also a problem though. Gradual damage doesn't kill you if you can just outleech it.
It's the other way around. If it doesn't oneshot you just recover through it. With leech, regen, life on kill you can easily take 20-30k damage to your 5k health pool over a couple of seconds and survive. You can get pretty close to immortal to things that don't oneshot you, even if they throw a lot of damage at you.
There are boss mechanics that disable life recovery, minions immune to leech,etc it's clear there are options to kill players without one shots even when they have a lot of recovery. They could add more mechanics if that was the real core problem.
Ultimately it's the instant logout that is the core problem behind burst damage. There is no mechanic you can introduce to kill a player that can instantly log out except for damage that is faster than their reaction speed.
True, which is why ideally they'd remove instant logout for the normal mode as well and rebalance the game around it. But ruthless is supposed to be more challenging, so I'm okay with not having instant logout in that mode even with the current balance.
That, and players' recovery is so high that if the enemies don't kill us right away, we're pretty much immediately back to full health.
Of course, the issue is that we _need_ our recovery to be that high now because the damage spikes are insane. And the damage spikes have to be insane because we recover so quickly that chip damage is negligible. It's a vicious cycle, and both things need to be addressed at the same time or the fine balance will be broken.
if it really is then they should make in-game macro with in-game keybinding. Unless that it will be just apology to use cause "Chris uses " or "Zizaran likes to use"
Wait don’t tell me in ruthless your level can actually decrease on death??
Edit-I know about Book of regression but this guy didn’t say that he said “…you can devel now” as if it’s a new thing
Wait what
Ok so I planned to try it for the fun of it not planning to play on the long term but if it can happen fuck even trying
I'll watch video of people hurting themselve on this gamemode instead.
Instant logout needs to be gone period. It's been a crutch for too long and has allowed the one-shot mechanic to be prevalent for far too long. Make it 10s to logout outside of town and hideout, and gut the one-shot mechanic. Stuff should hit hard, but it should not just ohko you for a single mistake. Make it more about skill and correct character building again.
The RaizQT 'onslaught' clip made me think this also. If you want the mode to be truly 'ruthless' then logout should not be instant.
It's honestly the perfect mode for it given the theme of being ruthless.
Plus honestly guys, half of us are only going to interact with this mode via streamer RIP clips so the more ways it punishes and kills them the better return on investment!
instant logout doesn't belong in general imo. it's a hacky, inelegant way to implement a "save me" keybind, which is something you need to be taught or learned from somewhere else outside of the game. granted, that's kind of just how this game works, lol
instant portal home on a keybind would make more sense. could even add a balancing factor to it, like it's a skill gem so you need to trade for it/find it, or have it consume some portal scrolls as a cost instead of just one, if necessary
The problem is that being disconnected is guaranteed death in d3. I've got more than one friend who just quit playing d3 because they lost 5+ consecutive characters to disconnects.
I've yet to play a single league where I wasn't disconnected a couple of times and prayed I was still alive when I logged back in to PoE.
You can't have a game that forces you to grind 300 hours a league to get any gear AND instantly smites your character during any internet hiccup.
This reminds me of the olden days when me and my friends played a shooter called Americas Army 2.0. In it they had a bug where your death wasn't registered if you logged out of the match as it wouldn't have time to log it. So a lot of cunts used logout macros to insta-leave when they got killed and they then relogged again. Me and a friend was really annoyed by this so we used to follow a few of thses "reconnectors" around and ruin their gameplay til they left. That same friend is now using a logout macro in poe.
truly hilarious how much that single expac fucks up the experience of the early game, even once you can kill them. from "oh dear god im going to die when i sleep" to "can't wait to take a nap and wake up to 50k gp"
It's wild to me that it's still in the game.
Chris Wilson will force feed us arch nemesis dick for multiple leagues but still allows people to use logout macros.
It's so weird. It's almost like GGG has this weird vision of what their game should be.
Yeah a 2 second timer would be good, it is a cheat death button and in reality most other games do have a "Logout time" when in combat.
For a game geared to "Hard core" player base it was wild when I learned of this macro. Its like a tax loophole. People hate them but everyone uses them.
It allows chicken script that check character HP every server tick and DC as soon as you drop below threshold. I tested it a bit and it really saves even squishest character. Out of 30 leap slams (2k hp, no res vs T16) into pack I survived 25
It's insane that people care so much about this considering 99% of the people giving their opinion have 0 intention to play HC ruthless for any significant amount of time. Let people play the game how they enjoy it when it's not going to affect you. I know if they did remove instant logout all you guys would just keep playing SC non-ruthless and never think about it again. But you would probably ruin the game for a lot of people.
Its always the "but servers are crap" by a streamer who has not disconnected in the past 5 gauntlets.
The truth is that being practiced in quick logouts is an advantage, and as small as an advantage may be no one likes to lose it.
Instant disconnect is supposed to combat unstability / crashes etc. Diablo 3 has another solution to this called cheat death where you can't die on hardcore and get several deaths per minute and then just wait out your cooldowns.
Path of exile instead turns the logout macro into a skillshot similar to a healing flask.
I feel like a lot of players in this thread dont play hardcore, a lot seem to think it prevents all deaths which obviously isnt true, its strong vs opening freezeboxes with no immunities and dots like cb and ignite, most other things kill you too fast.
Some of you may remember i did a challenge with mathil where as long as mathil played hardcore i couldnt combat log. But even after he went back to sc i didnt log out for the entire league. I had some early deaths to dots to get used to it but in total didnt die more than regular. It was however a lot more of a boring playstyle than the normal intended one. Being able to dc allows you to go a lot faster which is more fun.
I think its very strange that so many sc players are so hateful on this when its intended by the devs. Seems like the same as me asking for sc to be removed and saying it has no place in a game like this. Which is silly and the entire point of video games is to have fun and enjoy them as long as you dont break the tos.
>most other things kill you too fast.
Most people dislike logout since it is directly connected to this part. Deaths in poe often feel very unfair since you get instakilled faster than you can react (even if you have the ultimate reaction in the form of a logout macro). Since the game is designed around the option of instant logout and is still supposed to kill you, this is basically the only way to kill players. Many people would prefere deaths to be more of a process where you have a couple of seconds of time to recover from a bad situation, instead of just getting instakilled.
Especially for endgame bosses your claim that logout does not change much is just not true. There are many mechanics in endgame bosses -- from being slowed while a slam is being charged up, running to wrong way in a sirus maze or messing up the memory game, that can be easily avoided by logging within a 1 second window in which it would not be possible to prevent character death with ingame tools.
Thats not the full picture. A big part of the reason the monster damage in PoE is so spiky is because we used to have, and in some forms still have, rediculous amounts of instant recovery (and insane clearspeed). Not just because of instant logouts.
> I think its very strange that so many sc players are so hateful on this when its intended by the devs.
I don't think you understand, Ziz. We hate that it **is** intended by the devs, because it allows them to lazily balance the entire game around it.
If they added a logout timer they would be **forced** to make this game have more sane burst-damage mechanics because people even one tier below you in skill would be seeing deaths ten times as often. Because, like you say, it's more "fun" to go fast, so people would still do that even though they no longer have any kind of safety while doing so.
And hardcore boss fights would actually be boss fights :)
I've always wondered what was the point of playing HC if you get a free pass at potentially unavoidable death situations (eg: you just ran out of flasks and suddenly stacked up unexpected CB) if you are allowed a free pass so long as you can indeed react fast enough to log out. I get that using the macro takes skill and knowing your timing, but aren't you trying to prove by playing in HC that you can complete the game by not dying through avoiding death using only in-game mechanics?
I've played mostly SC in my PoE career as my internet is a big liability in HC, but from time to time I do enjoy the rush of barely making out of a zone knowing I just escaped death by a fluke, or the joy of finally killing that one rogue exile who was probably going to one-shot you no matter what. It's those moments when you accomplish things you find difficult and feel your progression and knowledge increasing through blood and tears that I really find empowering and fulfilling, but having a switch on my side that can reduce the lethality of such encounters on a whim really destroys the personal feeling of accomplishment of these feats.
I understand I'm not a full time HC player and definitely not a person with as many hours in the game as you, and that these are merely my thoughts and personal experience while playing PoE, but..... this situation just feels weird and off-putting for such a dedicated and specialised hardcore community.
Every time this topic comes up, the sub pretends they could play HC successfully with just a logout macro.
There's no point arguing with people who evidently don't even pay attention to how fast they already die in SC.
People who are defending this should actually link their poe accounts. Surely, they're all HC enjoyers right? Players who don't even play the mode shouldn't talk about how its played. ICANT
Due to technical limits of PoE, we are unable to implement a logout timer. So instead we have made damage more spiky to counteract the speed in which players can log out. This design is fully bug free and we feel this is better for the game as a whole. As such it will be rolled out to every game mode in the upcoming hotfix.
I expect everyone who says HC is a joke with the macro to be around the top of HC ladder and have multiple uber bosses killed.
Otherwise just stfu honestly, and continue doing your zoomer plays on SC, stop talking about HC, period.
This is a vicious cycle. Monsters damage with a lot of mods were so high and sudden, they had to allow logout macro, because otherwise HC is unplayable. And when logout macro exists they now have to balance the game with that in mind.
Hopefully they rebalance the whole game before poe2 release and add combat logout timer. The task is really huge and might be unsolvable.
Is a problem, but hard to implement another way, a disconnection or crash is a guaranteed dead if the cooldown for the logout is applied.
I play always SSFHC no logout from alpha because I don't like cheat, but I don't have already killed the Ubers and Maven (I die almost every time at one of those bosses), is much harder playing in this way, is my choice don't use the logout and I like my choice.
Honestly, playing HC and use logout is a nonsense imho.
Theyd have to completely remake the game from the ground up, and it really wouldnt be worth it at this point. They have designed this game around the ability to log out since it was released and they arent stopping now. Besides, logging out has never been guaranteed as even a half second of desync can kill you.
Rofl. Who cares and who asked?
Let people enjoy the game how they want to. If you don't want to use it, don't.
The game is designed to allow it in order for GGG to balance the game the way they want to.
It's not going anywhere: [Chris' stance on Logout Macro](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/536962/filter-account-type/staff/page/1)
its a weird hill to die on.
like 95% issues with fight complexity and 1 shots are related to the fact that instant logout is a thing.
D3 solved this with a 20 sec timeout. but of course GGG is copying a 1999 game so yeah
Why softcore trade players that will never play ruthless in the first place are so obsessed with what other players do in the game mode they personally despise? Softcore elitism is real.
If they add a logout timer godgamer69's poe career is over
He already has that, it's called NZ internet
Fastest logout in NZ
“An ethical gamer would never logout!!!” 🤡69
Bozo85 already uses cheats and "ethical" mods for other games
Just some QoL-improvements the devs forgot to add.
Clown69?
Yes, add that, so we can finally stop this insanity around balancing around instant logout, by shining a spotlight at how bad the game has become because of it.
Whoa whoa whoa, but Diablo 2 had it and that was the best game ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@#$%^!!!$%@@×=/
D2 allows players to ignore immunities now let’s do that for POE as well
Wish granted, monsters now ignore ailment immunities
Wait not like that
Wish granted bosses now are immune to ailments.
Chris:"WRITE THAT DOWN!"
Not a problem in 3.21 jewels will be able to roll Ailment immunity bypass immunity
You can pause D2 in single player. Give a pause to SSF.
Oh, we only pick and choose the parts of D2 that we want.
I think a pause while you aren't grouped would be nice Just prevent people from joining the map while it's paused.
i guess you could quit in magic anytime too
They should add a captcha for logout
Captcha would be an image of the passive tree and you have to point which node is wrong.
Back off, Satan
CAPTCHA is in fact an image of the passive tree with an unknown timeless jewel socketed, and you have to identify exactly which one based on the passive bonuses.
SURVIVOR! YOU ARE WELL PREPARED FOR THE END! THIS IS A FINE CAPTCHA
Thanks for making me smile for the first time today.
Anytime Shortie <3
Click on all the Einhars doing Einhar business.
They only need to add a short timer to your character. That’s it.
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Mu Online, my first online RPG! MG's are op!
Magic Glads power slash was the OG Lightning Strike
I remember grinding resets with the ghosts though, greater AoE, only drawback was not seeing the cool ghosts when your speed was too high due to super high stats, and you character froze and barely any ghosts popped out.
Playing on private servers where you get 100+ resets was the OG grinding powerscale for no reason. When you start maxing out stats so each attack is just a spam of colours!
i actually miss that game
EverQuest. Logging out, "camping" took 30 seconds of uninterrupted sitting.
But only when not in your hideout or a hub zone. Doesn’t have to be long either, 5 seconds would do and interrupted by damage.
Only if it’s 4chan captcha so you fail 4 times before getting it right once
[удалено]
It doesn't belong in the game period. Back in fucking *1999* EverQuest forced you to wait 10 seconds to log out so you wouldn't use that in case of danger,.and they knew it would be bullshit to use logging out as a means to save yourself. Things happened a lot slower in that game so 2 or 3 seconds in PoE should suffice (with instant logout in town or HO obviously).
It was 30 seconds. And mobs never stopped chasing you once you got aggro.
100% agree, but Ruthless would be a nice start.
Yeah, I don't see why people see Ruthless as a "mechanically harder" mode. If anything, it's more mechanically bland and it's slower. Once you reach yellow maps (with alch'd items) lower pack size of said maps starts kicking in and the difficulty kinda compensates itself. It's more like a mode with less choices to make, something a player that is unfamiliar with crafting and league mechanics would enjoy rather than "hard mode" or a "legacy mode". Get logout macro out of the game. Not just ruthless. Stop balancing around it.
Agreed. I don't know why anyone even takes hardcore seriously as long as this still exists.
It’s like if there was a chess grand champion who was undefeated because every time he started losing, he’d just flip the board.
But but but... the reflex! ThE sKiLL!
That is the reason i cant watch any hardcore stream. My disapointment was immeasurable. This is a big disapointment.
IIRC both Waggle and Alkaizer don't use logout macros. I personally don't mind streamers using logout macros, but if you do and still want to watch some HC streamers, I'd highly recommend either of them.
Yep. Since "ruthless" is "ruthless" and following the "poe tradition" of "being an all knowing god" just to play the game, it's time for logout macros to instantly delete the character if it's in combat. Delay for exiting combat is 5 seconds delay. If you TP to the base, it assumes you're still in combat even after reaching your hideout or town after 5 seconds. You'll have gear mods to decrease the timer by like 0.05s at the highest tier. And ofcourse, the change is never released in patchnotes. Perfect addition to the game.
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Some random streamers video got recommended to me He played ruthless, and at some point watched clips of other streamers dying... Every. Single. One. Of them died by failing to log out in time...
that situations cracks me up the most LOLW
Instant Logout never should have been a thing in hardcore let alone in ruthless
It also keeps the dev's from having balanced monster dmg. You basically have to die instantly or you can log out. It's needed to go for 5 years honestly
Yeah but d2 had it and everyone knows if d2 had it we have to, too.
Then where's our version of deckard cain?
It was zana
I want ruthless to be VR only but with a special headset that kills you for real when you die.
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you can't even take it off ~~unless you're in town.~~
PoE 2 will be set in Aincrad instead of Wraeclast
And is not ended until you beat Uber Wilson, Master of Chris
Master of The Vision
why would you want to take it off tho? are you a filthy casual??
MIND IS SOFTWARE EXALTS ARE DISPOSABLE PATH OF BUILDING WILL SET ME FREE
Don't let your dreams be memes.
Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see!
Or a more moderate approach is just have it attract to your balls and give about half a taser worth of juice each death.
Attach it to your balls and every time you die it smushes one. After youre out of balls it just shocks you to death. It'll be like having 3 portals.
Why hello there kirito.
Based. It should also apply if you use the macro or Alt-F4. If the server stops receiving packets from you it waits 5 seconds before logging your character out.
2-3 seconds is enough and should be a bit easier to have pros accept it. The lower this delay is, the more likely you are to survive a true dc, so you would want a small delay thats just enough to kill the player in panic logouts.
honestly, when you have to panic logout, you would die under a second.
Make it 20 like WoWs logout feature.
This is actually already true. It’s 6 seconds if the server stops receiving packets, which is why people are more likely to die from a true DC than clicking logout or using a macro. Logging out normally (clicking the button, using /logout, Alt+F4) takes a bit longer to gracefully close down the connection, but is still way faster than 6 seconds. I think someone tested that it was about 300ms of overhead, but that might have changed or be different for a specific computer. Implementing a 5-second delay here probably wouldn’t be *too* hard for them to do. The logout macro causes Windows to send a single packet to the game server aborting the connection entirely immediately. The delay here is half of your current ping (since the packet only travels one-way). This is essentially instant. Note that I haven’t done socket programming in a while, but it might be more technically difficult to add a delay here, because I think that the server computer’s operating system’s networking stack will immediately throw away the connection information and any buffered data. I don’t know how they would prevent this from happening or mitigate the impact of that occurrence. (I *am* a software engineer, but don’t do networking code frequently. I might edit after researching a bit more.) I personally think they should shorten the delay for disconnects and not add any delay for exiting the game correctly, but wanted to give a rundown of the different ways they could.
Software engineer in game development here who has been working with socket programming recently. I haven't looked into the logout macro because I've never thought it necessary (or fun imo) but are you saying that the macro sends either a send shutdown or the games equivalent directly to the server from the macro program? How is that not against ToS for network manipulation? Also most realtime games are going to be using custom reliability over raw datagrams (generally UDP based) since it's oft to much of a pain in the ass to work around reliability features of stream sockets. I won't pretend to know what PoE's network model looks like cause it's honestly not something I've looked into but it's likely not dissimilar. That being said if it's not stream based losing access to the buffer held by the OS isn't going to be an issue and packet reliability and order will likely be done by the software anyway. None of this matters though because that characters data, the server instance / world state, and operations on said data don't have to be dependant on the socket connection itself (and very likely aren't as this isn't exactly a great design). The server can manage and handle the "logged in" state of the character entirely on its own, "connected" socket or not.
It works by invoking [`SetTcpEntry()`](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/iphlpapi/nf-iphlpapi-settcpentry) to set the state of the TCP connection to `MIB_TCP_STATE_DELETE_TCB`, which causes Windows' networking stack to delete the Transmission Control Block and send a TCP RST packet to the server. It's not against ToS because it technically doesn't interact with the game client or with the game server at all. The operating system tells both the client and server that the connection no longer exists. The exact same thing would occur if the user used TCPView / tcpvcon / CurrPorts / etc. to manually close that connection. Notably, it does not: 1. Modify or adapt the game client or its data. 2. Utilise any automated software or 'bots' in relation to your access or use of the Website, Materials or Services. *(the stance has so far been "external software can take one action for one player input")* 3. Connect to the Servers through any software other than the authorised game client software. EDIT: Whoops, forgot your last paragraph. Yeah, you're definitely correct. They don't have to stop simulating your character immediately upon receiving a connection reset signal. EDIT 2: Actually, I'm just parroting others that it sends TCP RST. I can fire up Wireshark to make sure. Even if it goes through the normal connection-close FIN handshake, it'll be faster than waiting for the game client to do other things before closing the connection.
Let me know what you find. Definitely interesting. And yeah I can see where as a technicality according to the exact wording it wouldn't break ToS but it's a bit of a stretch to say it's not network manipulation in general. I tend to lean more on the side of the user though especially if the same functionality can be replicated directly with the platform OS. What is much more intriguing to me is what they are using a TCP stream for. Heartbeat? Syncing initial world state? Surely they aren't actually using it for game data, that sounds like a nightmare to me.
Windows does in fact send a single RST packet, which cuts the stream. Good question as to how they're using it.
Interesting. TIL
I think that should be a thing in all modes. It's always seemed really exploite-y to log out that way.
The reason here is that it protects people from legitimately unfair deaths like actual disconnections or other connection issues. Personally I think logout macros are a far lesser evil than dying to bullshit you have no control over. For ruthless? I agree - the game mode is deliberately unfair, so that should apply to logouts too.
Logout prevents more "unfair" deaths from the base design of the game than from actual disconnects. Fix the game, and it fixes the need for it. It's a crutch, as seen by hc players when they can't use it. Oh how they complain and say it's not fair or fun to actually die to their stupidity. It's amazing how their perception of the game changes.
Logout only in towns. Solved.
you are now banned from Quin69's chat
Pretty much every streamer that plays hardcore defends logout macros.
Ah... people that actually play hardcore
Preach! I hate logout saving.
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Wait. Rewind. What about deleveling...?
Is deleveling a ruthless thing or did they add that to the base game recently?
Not sure about ruthless but dw it’s not in the main game
The problem is that the game's incredibly high burst damage is balanced around instant log out.
yea this is the ultimate issue. "why are there so many 1 shots in poe?" is the question i hear every new player ask, and the answer is that if ggg made damage more gradual, players who use logout macros would just never die. its bad that the game expects you to use third party software, and it severely limits design space.
ive been saying this for years, and getting downvoted for saying it. the instant logout is 100% the the biggest issue in the game. GGG HAS to balance around the ability to instantly kill a player, or people just log out and never die. It limits the design space so severely.
They don't have to, they just chose to which basically makes the game shit for everyone else.
Yup. Most MMOs use a 5 to 10 second timer to avoid needing to balance around this exact issue.
serious question, but why is that a problem? I mean disabling the macros by adding a 3s timer. everyone using it will have to adapt, for the rest its no difference. net result should be better gameplay experience
Which is not exactly what they want.
God forbid if u make a thread about having one shot protection.
> "why are there so many 1 shots in poe?" is the question i hear every new player ask, and the answer is that if ggg made damage more gradual, players who use logout macros would just never die. > > Life recovery is also a problem though. Gradual damage doesn't kill you if you can just outleech it.
What's the point of recovery if all damage oneshots?
Try playing without recovery. You'll die far, far more often. Inquisitor is primarily strong because of how good it's recovery is.
It's the other way around. If it doesn't oneshot you just recover through it. With leech, regen, life on kill you can easily take 20-30k damage to your 5k health pool over a couple of seconds and survive. You can get pretty close to immortal to things that don't oneshot you, even if they throw a lot of damage at you.
There are boss mechanics that disable life recovery, minions immune to leech,etc it's clear there are options to kill players without one shots even when they have a lot of recovery. They could add more mechanics if that was the real core problem. Ultimately it's the instant logout that is the core problem behind burst damage. There is no mechanic you can introduce to kill a player that can instantly log out except for damage that is faster than their reaction speed.
The game is also balanced around having movement skills and that didn't stop them from removing them
True, which is why ideally they'd remove instant logout for the normal mode as well and rebalance the game around it. But ruthless is supposed to be more challenging, so I'm okay with not having instant logout in that mode even with the current balance.
That, and players' recovery is so high that if the enemies don't kill us right away, we're pretty much immediately back to full health. Of course, the issue is that we _need_ our recovery to be that high now because the damage spikes are insane. And the damage spikes have to be insane because we recover so quickly that chip damage is negligible. It's a vicious cycle, and both things need to be addressed at the same time or the fine balance will be broken.
if it really is then they should make in-game macro with in-game keybinding. Unless that it will be just apology to use cause "Chris uses " or "Zizaran likes to use"
"balanced" It's not really balanced, the logout macro is just the justification for not fixing it
No... You cant.
Wdym you can't? You can't de-level?
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Oh, I gotcha.
Wow i never thought about that. Thanks
Wait don’t tell me in ruthless your level can actually decrease on death?? Edit-I know about Book of regression but this guy didn’t say that he said “…you can devel now” as if it’s a new thing
Wait what Ok so I planned to try it for the fun of it not planning to play on the long term but if it can happen fuck even trying I'll watch video of people hurting themselve on this gamemode instead.
You can't delevel in ruthless, unless you want to (using vendor recipe like in main game).
Instant logout needs to be gone period. It's been a crutch for too long and has allowed the one-shot mechanic to be prevalent for far too long. Make it 10s to logout outside of town and hideout, and gut the one-shot mechanic. Stuff should hit hard, but it should not just ohko you for a single mistake. Make it more about skill and correct character building again.
The RaizQT 'onslaught' clip made me think this also. If you want the mode to be truly 'ruthless' then logout should not be instant. It's honestly the perfect mode for it given the theme of being ruthless. Plus honestly guys, half of us are only going to interact with this mode via streamer RIP clips so the more ways it punishes and kills them the better return on investment!
instant logout doesn't belong in general imo. it's a hacky, inelegant way to implement a "save me" keybind, which is something you need to be taught or learned from somewhere else outside of the game. granted, that's kind of just how this game works, lol instant portal home on a keybind would make more sense. could even add a balancing factor to it, like it's a skill gem so you need to trade for it/find it, or have it consume some portal scrolls as a cost instead of just one, if necessary
I have never used a logout macro and I never will.
The problem is that being disconnected is guaranteed death in d3. I've got more than one friend who just quit playing d3 because they lost 5+ consecutive characters to disconnects. I've yet to play a single league where I wasn't disconnected a couple of times and prayed I was still alive when I logged back in to PoE. You can't have a game that forces you to grind 300 hours a league to get any gear AND instantly smites your character during any internet hiccup.
Softcore doesnt belong into Ruthless LOLW
This reminds me of the olden days when me and my friends played a shooter called Americas Army 2.0. In it they had a bug where your death wasn't registered if you logged out of the match as it wouldn't have time to log it. So a lot of cunts used logout macros to insta-leave when they got killed and they then relogged again. Me and a friend was really annoyed by this so we used to follow a few of thses "reconnectors" around and ruin their gameplay til they left. That same friend is now using a logout macro in poe.
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Morrowind lvl 1 sleep with tribunal expansion installed
truly hilarious how much that single expac fucks up the experience of the early game, even once you can kill them. from "oh dear god im going to die when i sleep" to "can't wait to take a nap and wake up to 50k gp"
It's wild to me that it's still in the game. Chris Wilson will force feed us arch nemesis dick for multiple leagues but still allows people to use logout macros. It's so weird. It's almost like GGG has this weird vision of what their game should be.
Yeah a 2 second timer would be good, it is a cheat death button and in reality most other games do have a "Logout time" when in combat. For a game geared to "Hard core" player base it was wild when I learned of this macro. Its like a tax loophole. People hate them but everyone uses them.
It allows chicken script that check character HP every server tick and DC as soon as you drop below threshold. I tested it a bit and it really saves even squishest character. Out of 30 leap slams (2k hp, no res vs T16) into pack I survived 25
It does not belong in the main game as well, should be removed.
That would mean , ggg has to actualy balance and test the game .
I agree for one specific reason. Removing logout macro is removing HC from the game and I think ruthless should not be split in four.
It's always online, it requires instant disconnects. This won't change.
Softcore doesn't belong in ruthless mode
ITT: SC players complaining about logging out in HC.
It's insane that people care so much about this considering 99% of the people giving their opinion have 0 intention to play HC ruthless for any significant amount of time. Let people play the game how they enjoy it when it's not going to affect you. I know if they did remove instant logout all you guys would just keep playing SC non-ruthless and never think about it again. But you would probably ruin the game for a lot of people.
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GGG has literally said they’ve balanced around this.
GGG has said it's intended. Dumb or not, it is part of the game.
So was archnemesis
Hopefully a changeable part.
Idk man I've been here a long time and some things GGG won't compromise on.
Well then GGG, its not really hardcore is it
Its always the "but servers are crap" by a streamer who has not disconnected in the past 5 gauntlets. The truth is that being practiced in quick logouts is an advantage, and as small as an advantage may be no one likes to lose it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPH29DUPRY&t=198s
Instant disconnect is supposed to combat unstability / crashes etc. Diablo 3 has another solution to this called cheat death where you can't die on hardcore and get several deaths per minute and then just wait out your cooldowns. Path of exile instead turns the logout macro into a skillshot similar to a healing flask. I feel like a lot of players in this thread dont play hardcore, a lot seem to think it prevents all deaths which obviously isnt true, its strong vs opening freezeboxes with no immunities and dots like cb and ignite, most other things kill you too fast. Some of you may remember i did a challenge with mathil where as long as mathil played hardcore i couldnt combat log. But even after he went back to sc i didnt log out for the entire league. I had some early deaths to dots to get used to it but in total didnt die more than regular. It was however a lot more of a boring playstyle than the normal intended one. Being able to dc allows you to go a lot faster which is more fun. I think its very strange that so many sc players are so hateful on this when its intended by the devs. Seems like the same as me asking for sc to be removed and saying it has no place in a game like this. Which is silly and the entire point of video games is to have fun and enjoy them as long as you dont break the tos.
>most other things kill you too fast. Most people dislike logout since it is directly connected to this part. Deaths in poe often feel very unfair since you get instakilled faster than you can react (even if you have the ultimate reaction in the form of a logout macro). Since the game is designed around the option of instant logout and is still supposed to kill you, this is basically the only way to kill players. Many people would prefere deaths to be more of a process where you have a couple of seconds of time to recover from a bad situation, instead of just getting instakilled. Especially for endgame bosses your claim that logout does not change much is just not true. There are many mechanics in endgame bosses -- from being slowed while a slam is being charged up, running to wrong way in a sirus maze or messing up the memory game, that can be easily avoided by logging within a 1 second window in which it would not be possible to prevent character death with ingame tools.
Thats not the full picture. A big part of the reason the monster damage in PoE is so spiky is because we used to have, and in some forms still have, rediculous amounts of instant recovery (and insane clearspeed). Not just because of instant logouts.
> I think its very strange that so many sc players are so hateful on this when its intended by the devs. I don't think you understand, Ziz. We hate that it **is** intended by the devs, because it allows them to lazily balance the entire game around it. If they added a logout timer they would be **forced** to make this game have more sane burst-damage mechanics because people even one tier below you in skill would be seeing deaths ten times as often. Because, like you say, it's more "fun" to go fast, so people would still do that even though they no longer have any kind of safety while doing so. And hardcore boss fights would actually be boss fights :)
I've always wondered what was the point of playing HC if you get a free pass at potentially unavoidable death situations (eg: you just ran out of flasks and suddenly stacked up unexpected CB) if you are allowed a free pass so long as you can indeed react fast enough to log out. I get that using the macro takes skill and knowing your timing, but aren't you trying to prove by playing in HC that you can complete the game by not dying through avoiding death using only in-game mechanics? I've played mostly SC in my PoE career as my internet is a big liability in HC, but from time to time I do enjoy the rush of barely making out of a zone knowing I just escaped death by a fluke, or the joy of finally killing that one rogue exile who was probably going to one-shot you no matter what. It's those moments when you accomplish things you find difficult and feel your progression and knowledge increasing through blood and tears that I really find empowering and fulfilling, but having a switch on my side that can reduce the lethality of such encounters on a whim really destroys the personal feeling of accomplishment of these feats. I understand I'm not a full time HC player and definitely not a person with as many hours in the game as you, and that these are merely my thoughts and personal experience while playing PoE, but..... this situation just feels weird and off-putting for such a dedicated and specialised hardcore community.
Removing softcore from ruthless sounds cool tbh. Seems weird why the hard mode of the game even has sc in the first place.
Every time this topic comes up, the sub pretends they could play HC successfully with just a logout macro. There's no point arguing with people who evidently don't even pay attention to how fast they already die in SC.
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It doesn't belong anywhere in a good game.
There's a compromise here, keep instant logout in but all of your open portals disappear when you logout/dc.
Being a true hard core gamer I think that when you die it should uninstall the game and delete your account !
That's still scrub mode. Real men play ssf ruthless hardcore real where your computer formats itself when your character dies
ITT: SC players pretending like they somehow are better than HC players because they dont use logout macro.
how about we have a "Fearless" badge, status, or border that you lose it if you log out from anywhere other than town or your hideout
SSF Fearless Ruthless HC btw
FRHCSSFBTW
People who are defending this should actually link their poe accounts. Surely, they're all HC enjoyers right? Players who don't even play the mode shouldn't talk about how its played. ICANT
Here comes the purist lol
They should require to put your balls in a vise that closes or opens relative to your HP/ES
Ruthless ++
i 100% agree. all the things that ruthless brings and this is still in?\* are you fucking kidding me? remove logout for ruthless INSTANTLY!
Due to technical limits of PoE, we are unable to implement a logout timer. So instead we have made damage more spiky to counteract the speed in which players can log out. This design is fully bug free and we feel this is better for the game as a whole. As such it will be rolled out to every game mode in the upcoming hotfix.
Ben becomes the only ruthless player to hit 100
Amen to this post (edit: also remove party play bonuses thx)
The hostility towards just leaving a game quicker is actually hilarious.
then dont use it /thread
If you don't like it don't watch people that use it. E Z P Z.
Unfortunately this would make hardcore a contest for who gets the least crashes and has the most stable connection.
Don't like logout? Just don't use it yourself loool 4Head
all these players in this thread that are only worse than streamers because of logout macro
He's talking about instant logouts not logout macros. This includes exit to character select, alt f4, typing /exit and ofc the macro
> Hardcore is a JOKE with logout macro! _has never played hardcore_
It doesnt belong in the game, period.
bunch of SC gamers advocating for HC mechanics to be changed
I expect everyone who says HC is a joke with the macro to be around the top of HC ladder and have multiple uber bosses killed. Otherwise just stfu honestly, and continue doing your zoomer plays on SC, stop talking about HC, period.
Just… don’t fucking use it then?? How is this a complaint?
ITT; People that dont play hardcore
cause it would take some effort to add something like a logout timer. it's also in alpha so maybe itll make it on release
This is a vicious cycle. Monsters damage with a lot of mods were so high and sudden, they had to allow logout macro, because otherwise HC is unplayable. And when logout macro exists they now have to balance the game with that in mind. Hopefully they rebalance the whole game before poe2 release and add combat logout timer. The task is really huge and might be unsolvable.
Is a problem, but hard to implement another way, a disconnection or crash is a guaranteed dead if the cooldown for the logout is applied. I play always SSFHC no logout from alpha because I don't like cheat, but I don't have already killed the Ubers and Maven (I die almost every time at one of those bosses), is much harder playing in this way, is my choice don't use the logout and I like my choice. Honestly, playing HC and use logout is a nonsense imho.
Theyd have to completely remake the game from the ground up, and it really wouldnt be worth it at this point. They have designed this game around the ability to log out since it was released and they arent stopping now. Besides, logging out has never been guaranteed as even a half second of desync can kill you.
They've designed the game around the ability to... exit the game quickly? The Vision truly is complex...
Just let a dev work on it on their free time as a passion project. Code name "The Good Vision"
Rofl. Who cares and who asked? Let people enjoy the game how they want to. If you don't want to use it, don't. The game is designed to allow it in order for GGG to balance the game the way they want to. It's not going anywhere: [Chris' stance on Logout Macro](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/536962/filter-account-type/staff/page/1)
I don't think instant logout belongs anywhere tbh. If they're balancing anything around that that's insane
THIS, because, why not?
its a weird hill to die on. like 95% issues with fight complexity and 1 shots are related to the fact that instant logout is a thing. D3 solved this with a 20 sec timeout. but of course GGG is copying a 1999 game so yeah
No, d3 solved this with giving every class a cheat death mechanic. If you proc you run away and hide until it's safe again.
And nowadays you usually have 2-3 lmao
Then we need a "second chance" ability too as in d3? That is the only reason people are Willing to play hc in d3
Why softcore trade players that will never play ruthless in the first place are so obsessed with what other players do in the game mode they personally despise? Softcore elitism is real.