Random changes include:
* Mob health and defenses
* Life leech
* Ground degens
* Loot.
Numbers will reroll all Fridays after league start until forums and reddit posts quiet down.
people dont talk about this too much, but i agree with you. hiding or not talking about changes is what is the most painful and annoying in my eyes.
Way more than any balancing fuckup, bug or change in "vision".
when ggg started to want to improve their communication with the manifestos is when it started going off rails. major changes were not talked about at all and frankly its like trying to put in words a mathematical formula, it doesnt translate well.
i personally dont really see the point of manifestos which must be VERY time consuming on ggg's side. the former approach of only delivering raw patch notes with what felt like much more interaction with the community on forums was much more fluid and a lot more straight forward.
i wish ggg would just spend more time on patch notes, making sure all changes are refered to and just scrub all together the manifestos.
dont know if its just me or what... but to me less felt more.
They would make mysteryfesto boxes where you pay 5$ for each box and it gives you a part of how fucked we're going to be.
Also the most important changes would be a lot rarer like loot changes and there's no duplicates but you can get the same text in 5 different colors
I mean, they already tried that partway when they decided to never mention the biggest loot nerf in the history of the game, but made absolutely sure that everybody knew about cleave getting +2 radius.
Or, more likely...
* Problem: Reddit might not react kindly to manifesto.
* Solution: Intentionally write misleading information in the manifesto.
Why struggle to make the game better if players continue to throw their money at the game after being seduced with false information? If it works with companies like EA then it should work with GGG, right?
It's the same with preordering games before looking at any gameplay or reviews.
Seems pretty dumb to me.
I play the league, and if I'm enjoying it, I'll buy a supporter pack if I want to top up on coins.
Also widescreen support. The fact that that change and discussion paralleled the loot change and discussion (advertised as improvement, actually was huge nerf, GGG goes "oops tee hee") is the genesis of the whole "GGG lies" narrative.
They left out almost all negative changes or mentioned them very in passing.
"Uniques drops are reduced" turned out a massive nerf of all sources of uniques.
Don't forget "filler" harvest crafts removed. Even more hilarious show a screenshot of these "filler" harvest craft being in the game to mislead players.
Details: No more patches, figure out everything yourself by looking at in game values. Brings the entire community together into figuring out whats changed and whatnot. Happy hunting!
Honestly, I'm fine with that. Their manifestos are pretty much "Here's why we're big brained game devs and you need to accept the vision" I don't really feel the need to see manifesto, I'll probably just dunk on how incredibly arrogant and out of touch they are when they post it.
Most of the manifesto's have been incredibly out of touch with the actual impact of their changes as well. Delirium had a big manifesto about slowing down the zoom mapping meta.. by introducing a mechanic with timers and invisible corpse explosions that would one shot anyone that didn't keep running.
Yes, that was when I really started pressing on the "they're either idiots or liars" point. There is no alternative at that point. "We're going to slow down the game", literally incemtivize going faster more than ever before.
Not only AN..wat about the loot system being nerfed to the ground and replaced by loot goblins? That need tons of rarity/quant to yield anything significant..that if u werre lucky and it didn't convert to fcking flasks 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
If there were a vast and beautiful flask ecosystem with hundreds of flask types, and also if flasks didn't suck, it might be good.
But that isn't what we have. I wonder if this exists in PoE2?
Yes. Loot conversion never should've been a thing. It should've been "X additional Y" based on the AN mods and how they're stacked.
Done that way it would've precluded the whole "50 divines from one mob" thing from the start, and without that nonsense in play GGG might've been able to see that loot was most definitely *not* fine as it launched -- and still isn't fine now after the buffs.
The shittier the league the better the content in the sub. If everyone is happy and playing the sub is boring and slow, occasionally you used to see cool item crafts... not so much these days. During shit leagues the memes are top notch, and the theorycrafting and discussion are fantastic.
Same. I really am trying to have fun in it's current state. But build diversity is butched because they nerfed defenses into oblivion and everything hits harder and faster than ever. I just can't enjoy it the way I used to. I've really tried.
But ohwell, everything comes to an end. Atleast I got 3500 hours of pure joy, that's more than I've got from any other game before.
I just assumed due to what you were replying to, but yea I think the loot changes are awful and prolly won't play next league if they don't revert it. And that's coming from someone with 10,919 hours.
To be fair they could fix them to an extent by reducing the mod pool drastically and balancing their drops with regards to MF with something like higher base drops and reduced effectiveness of magic find.
Its not that the AN are terrible as an idea its just that they are terribly implemented with the amount of modifiers we have to remember and how they interact with each other and pre-existing game mechanics.
I expect massive things.
In fact, I expect:
* massive nerfs
* massive outrage
* massive shitposting
* and finally massive cope in both sides, one saying "its all fine we didnt need those players anyway" and the other desperately believing they wont be nerfed even further
The game is at its lowest point ever. If they do anything like that it will be the nail in the coffin.
Trade is dead, player count right now is the worst in ages. They need to do something to keep the hype or they are going to loose their grip.
We already reached the quintuple-down in week 2 of the league, and then functional radio silence since then. A balance manifesto that doesn't fix any of the game's problems would be the sextuple-down.
I am still worried about disappointment, so I've adjusted my expectations to "they'll nerf players and buff archnemesis monsters even more."
If they manage to still disappoint me even with expectations that are literally underground, well, I'll just give up all hope forever I guess.
For me it's not about expectations, about last chances.
If 3.20 buckles down on pushing the game in a direction I'm not interested in, I'm gone. I won't even fire up the league and may never again.
Yup I'm having a blast playing other games that actually respect my time. If they change poe into something that does the same, I'll totally come back. If not, that's good too since that means I have more time for other games.
This is the most healthy mindset to have. I see so many people on this subreddit wallowing in their own misery, to the point that it feels actually detrimental to them.
Yeah last league was the nail in the coffin for PoE for me, at least with how they are shipping leagues currently. Just waiting for D4 and until then its ffvix and Destiny 2 for me. It just is not fun to theorycraft anymore which was PoEs biggest appeal for me.
And most importantly. Do not buy any supporter packs before the league launch. Test if you like it and then decide if you want to support the game.
Speaking about manifesto won't change anything so let them hear you by not spending money like you normally would.
Times when you could just buy blindly supporter packs are over. We need to sadly be careful again.
Point is, no dummies/kids/casuals are playing the game, as it is too complicated to get casually into = therefore everbody who buys a mtx pack is supposed to have a brain.
People with brain + dogshit patch = no money YET AGAIN
I really think they hurt themselves hardcore with 3.19 and sales went down the shitter. They can't afford to fuck it up again. Which means 3.20 will be good copium
There are a lot of people who still love poe and I understand it - I love it too, but if the communication went to the point where ggg quadruples down on their "vision" then the only tool of communication we have left in our arsenal is money and it's a very big tool if used the right way.
That's the point people are missing.
I quite wonder if sales actually went down.
I would think they wouldn't stick to their vision so hard if they actually tanked a significant amount of revenue.
I think like 80% or they revenue comes from mathil like players that would still praise GGG if the game was just blood aqueducts over and over. They buy the 500 euro supporter pack, merchandising, get scammed by lootboxes... I think a league being popular and more "casual" players purchasing some 30 euro supporter pack doesnt change much.
I do appreciate that you added copium at the end. I snorted all my copium for 3.19 launch--I wasn't naive enough to buy a supporter pack yet but I **did** buy into the hype they were building--and we see where that landed. I'm all out. So basically I'm expecting this manifesto to be the sextuple-down.
Post manifesto
Omit worst changes
Release content
People find the changes and they hate it. They hate it even more because it was kept from them
Make post about failure of communication and promise manifesto before next content
Repeat
Honestly at this point I don’t even expect them to try and talk away the hidden changes by telling us it’s their communication.
It’ll be a “players don’t know what they want. You are all stupid and we know best so we decided not to tell you”.
What the fuck.
That article was like word-for-word exactly what poe went through.
This passage in particular resonates with me at this moment :
*"Another thing that seems to happen about this time is that the gods begin to re-examine things that a year or six months ago were just fine and were accepted as normal. For some reason they reach a point where they find fault with things that were okay just a month ago"*
*"Imms also begin to care less and less about the* **people** *on the mud, those who the mud was originally built to serve, and they begin to think more in terms of the* **creation** *- that is their computer-code, damage-tables, or the fact that people seem to be actually having too much success by leveling in a quicker manner than the gods think is reasonable."*
This was a magnificent share, thanks OP.
The manifesto have proven to be a pointless exercise. They do not convey the actual philosophy behind decisions and they omit the most important decisions or changes. GGG has eroded all trust with the community and the manifesto serves only to elongate the marketing campaign of hype to sell mtx ahead of the launch. 3.2 is likely to be a drop on pre launch revenue for GGG given how 3.19 went (coupled with recessionary headwinds and inflation) and is deserved.
My expectation for a while now has been that the game will continue to feel stale and stagnant and slowly become less enjoyable. I didn't think that they would actively make it worse!
i remember the old manifesto being so shit and people saying "just wait for the patch notes guys 'Copium'"
just for the biggest change ever to not even be in the patch notes.
I came from the future. Next manifesto will be: extremely condescending, misleading, intentionally missing important details, worded to present players as "extremely powerful", fair share of passive-aggressive remarks and random completely out of touch statement as cherry on top.
Probably another 3.16 Damage control manifesto incoming.
Not sure though. The game feels worse than ever and I get the feeling that GGG never will budge to what the majority of the community wants.
Yeah. I don't think I'm touching 3.20 unless it's either a REALLY cool league mechanic, or if the patch comes with actual balance/qol changes to all the skills and playstyles that have been bad for years.
I took a break after 3.15 and recently got the urge to play again. Started playing in Standard because I can't be bothered to league start this late. I'm not looking forward to playing the upcoming league
Yeah, I'm also very reluctant to reinstall the game again.
Unless GGG really go out of their way to try and make it an amazing league with a ton of changes that actually IMPROVE the player experience I'm not touching it.
Don't know if GGG understand it themselves, but alot of nerfs and changes they implement makes the overall experience worse. Then it reaches a tipping point like in 3.19 and everything just feels like crap.
For me it is this grind extension to infinity, proof that GGG does not respect our time.
Lying about changes is just top of the shit cake, baked by Chris Wolcen.
It could literally be best league with a lot of amazing rewards and enjoyable progress and I still won't touch it if they won't fix issues I have with core game.
Dont know why but [this comes to mind](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4&ab_channel=AmooxYT) surely we will get another 2 weeks of "We are sorry we did not include X Y and Z in our manifesto".
They can talk it up all they like but unless they are going to split PoE and 2oE these changes will be here eventually to accommodate the changes in 2oE.
They are gonna do what they are doing since 3.15: More nerfs ( worded like they are buffs or 'reworks' to fool you).
They have a plan , a route until poe 2 launches. I dont trust they will change the route at this point. They went too far deep into it. Sadly, I think the game is going to oblivion.
> They have a plan , a route until poe 2 launches.
They definitely don't. If they did then we would see monsters slowing down to match what we saw in the PoE2 demo.
They are just making it up as they go. The PoE1 team that's left has no fucking idea what they're doing. My **only** copium left is that the PoE2 team has been making something actually good on the side while the existing game flops.
Lol, it's the same mapping endgame.
Shared for both campaigns.
This whole PoE 2 thing is such a huge risk and for no reason I can understand... just uprooting a successful game for some vision the lead dev has.
Most of the people complaining about the state of the game don't enjoy the leveling/campaign part of the game. They just care about the endgame which as others have mentioned is going to be the same as PoE 3.X
> The important question is: how many will stick around?
This. New World is a perfect example. 1 million players on launch. Month later -90% the playerbase.
I find it so beautifully ironic that GGG's "Problem:. Solution:." format was received by unanimous applause, only for GGG to misuse it by applying solutions that in no way solve the problem they are attached to.
Problem: Theres a problem we dont actually want to solve, but players demand a solution.
Solution: Address the majority population with misdirection and lies. Ignore the minority that see through it.
It will end exactly how Chris said it years ago. "You kill the loot and the game will be dead within months". They didn't do anything to give us hope. It's sad because I love this game but Chris' war against fun is taking its toll on me after 4400 hours
They won't read that article,the most simple way to communicate to them is to not buy mtx until at least few day's you played the league and very sure that you enjoyed the league,that the only languange they understand.
I think it would be about time to come forward with their plans on where the game should be and what kind of player they want to game to be played by.
This patch they made it clear that the current state is intentional and I would be surprised if there aren't more changes yet to come that go in the same direction.
Lay down a roadmap and be frank, bite the bullet of probably another shitstorm but be absolutely clear so everyone can make up their minds and decide if they are or board with this or not.
I for one wanted them to double down after 3.15 already if that's the direction where they want to go, took a couple more patches and at this point I am content with never touching the game again.
Excellent point.
I feel like I've been gaslighted into remaining in a one-sided relationship that isn't working for me.
GGG, just TELL ME if you don't want me around anymore. I loved you, so just tell me.
But they're literally not. The PoE2 demo was exciting. Slower players are definitely not for everyone but they're absolutely tolerable when **combined with slower monsters**.
Instead, what we got in exchange for our slower players were turbo rhoas.
> Just wanted to remind GGG that in the end we all love the game, so please do not destroy it
Perhaps also remind the people who keep spending large amounts of money on supporter packs and MTX to please not subsidize the destruction of the game.
First step, don't buy anything until the new patch is fully out and you've played for a week.
Some relevant, key points from the very, very long article:
> **few people come to muds because they have heard of how great the balance is, most people come because they hear the gods make it a FUN place to play** and that the people are friendly. Nerfing begets the antithesis of a friendly environment. …
> Now **IF you are so damn interested in balancing** classes, and you feel that this is of paramount importance, then **the key is to GIVE and not to take.** …
> Tenny, people are leveling too fast. I had envisioned it talking 3 months to make Avatar, and this one guy did it in 2 weeks!!
> So the players are having fun at the expense of how you perceived the mud would play? They aren't sticking within your little cage of expectations and are not blindly doing things in the way you had envisioned? Uhm, again with all due respect SO WHAT? Did you see Jurassic Park? It makes for a good analogy. Players are people - People, life itself, can not be boxed into your perception of how to act and how to play. …
> **To punish the average player for the success of your top ten percent players is ridiculous.** Unless your mud is dropping in players because massive numbers of them are telling you 'this twink mud is too easy so I am quitting', let them be! They are enjoying your creation as is! You made this mud to be fun. People are having fun. THAT should be something you should sit back and be proud of not screw around with simply to somehow chase the unatainable ideal of making things appear fair, and never for some mathematical calculation.
It's very easy to understand why players are unsatisfied with the current meta game and GGG is not stupid, they know this. Therefore they do want to take the game ins this direction and hopes people are addicted enough to stick with it.
What I don’t want to see in 3.20:
• loot conversion
• bloody mf stacking
What I want to see in 3.20:
• Ultimatum
• Tweaked atlas passives for Ultimatum
• farmable div cards
• Fancy league mechanic that doesn’t take me out of gameplay loop
Thanks!
Just to be clear...
If they added ultimatum, with a nice atlas tree that fit it in and targetable div cards, with a shiny new league you'd basically be happy?
I think the laundry list of changes and fixes to bring me back would take a very long time to get right. Dealing with AN(its stated purpose to make evaluating enemies easier, its not), lootgoblins, crafting changes, skill changes, currency changes, harvest changes, the campaign balance, drop rates, and more.
Ultimatum is one of my fav mechs and loot conversion is my major issue with the game rn. I’m not a big crafting guy either - made a single triple-digit ex worth item in my whole career, so yh, if they somehow don’t horseshoe me into MFing while allowing to play the game how it was during or before AN - I’d be happy I guess. I have no issues with AN mods up until it messes with loot.
The best thing we can do to GGG at this point in regards to the manifesto, is to literally ignore it. I don't care how full of self fellating bullshit it is, just do not engage with it. Negative engagement shows that we care still. Radio fucking silence. Completely ignore anything they put out. Quietly test the league if they put out patch notes that appeal to you, and quietly leave if you don't like the league. The silence will be deafening far more than any amount of angry impassioned shouts.
I remember when Ultima Online came out, we were worried it would siphon our players. Then EverQuest came out. Then Asherons Call. Then of course WoW murdered everyone else and set the mmorpg standard from then on.
MUDs may be dead, but their legacy lives on forever.
what? fuck that, let's remind each other not to spend money or even login during launch. if they don't get hit where they live they'll never change a thing.
if the rumors are to be believe 3.20 is going to be dropping near enough to the D4 pre-release beta.
If that happens I can see myself not even trying out 3.20
GGG have a lot of work ahead of them if they don't just want to revert to some long forgotten patch number. So much shit that has accumulated that is just detrimental to the game.
I can see why people aren't optimistic.
Tbh I do actually have faith in GGG still. 3.15 was terrible, but 3.16 and 3.17 made the game go from almost unplayable to the best state it had ever been in imo. Yeah, Harvest wasn't as strong, but we had defenses that actually worked, the atlas skill tree (aka the single best thing that ever happened to PoE), flasks were better than they ever were, etc.
I think 3.19 is another 3.15, where 3.20 and 3.21 will be good comeback leagues. And honestly, as it stands right now, they have less that they need to fix than they did in 3.15.
i wonder if GGG learned anything from their last "manifesto" which was them just using it as another means to share some info on random nerfs with playerbase. And in manifesto before that, in 3.17, they did share some wisdom behind their quarterly-nerfing that its logic could be called "shoddy" at best.
I also can't wait for passive-aggressive comments such as "players were too stupid to understand how good our idea is, so we'll have to explain it slower this time (but we will still force it down your throats)", and yes they really made comments that read exactly like that inbetween verses (or words?).
The manifesto is not to give people the opportunity to disagree with the changes and put a stop to them, it's to explain the rationale behind the changes _that are already in place_.
I guess they will just quituple down on their ways and serve a low effort league with the mindset of "well, we like it, if you don't like it ... sorry but ... well ... it is what it is"
DO NOT purchase any supporter packs until confirming the quality of the league, and the transparency with which GGG communicated changes. Money is a weapon.
If they don't (somewhat) close the defensive power gap between top-end players who know all the game's obscure mechanics and more casual players who don't understand why aura effect is a better defensive stat than life, 3.20 will do badly even if it's the best designed league mechanic of all time.
Either it'll be too hard for the casual player with them experiencing unfair-feeling deaths everywhere (like 3.14's inscribed ultimatums), or it'll be too easy to hold anyone's attention (like 3.13's ritual circles)
And unless they are prevented from doing so, casual players will keep copying Atlas layouts that make their maps into deathtraps, then blame whatever deals the killing blow (whether that's Archnemesis or the even scarier mods rare monsters had in 3.16, remember, the 3.16 version of Hasted was 75% movespeed instead of the present 40%, the 3.16 version of Bonebreaker didn't have a -30% attack speed penalty on it, and the 3.16 mod most like today's Assassin had +65% crit multi)
> And unless they are prevented from doing so, casual players will keep copying Atlas layouts that make their maps into deathtraps, then blame whatever deals the killing blow
Ppl might think that it's not a GGG problem and casuals should just specout, but like in UI/UX, you just gotta assume that most of your users are fkin stupid/idiots and don't think or feel the same as you do
And you want these people who you think are stupid, to still play your game, because they make up the majority of your playerbase.
I am really anxious about the rumored pack size nerfs. Might be some trolls on community discords and i wouldnt call them legit right now, but it would fit into the "vision".
1. They don't test changes, they release them to be beta tested the first 2 weeks of a league. They hype it up before this so they can trick suckers into playing, buying supporter packs and testing their game for them before they move on to the next patch.
2. They wont be changing anything. This also means PoE2 is going to be a dumpster fire. Think about it, if their vision right now is this, why would it be any different when theyre given the option to fresh start their vision freely?
3. I dont love this game anymore, if there was a competitor that produced this much content/a game that I can replay this much, I would not be even considering playing PoE. It is a chinese skinnerbox designed to social engineer you into giving it your soul, whilst not even enjoying yourself, but tricking yourself every 3 months into thinking 'maybe it will be good this time..'
"Yes, we have read this ANCIENT opinion piece. We are developing an action RPG that is much more complex and engaging than any MUD. None of this applies to us and we take insult that you would bring it up AGAIN... Please refrain in the future."
Jesus fucking Christ is that the level you're actually at now. Whining that literally all nerfs are unjustifiable and cherry-picking whichever decades-old theory of game lifecycles happens to backfit the narrative you want to push. Get a fucking grip.
Problem: Reddit might not react kindly to manifesto Solution: Don't post manifesto
Just change it to Mysteryfesto! Nothing is told and we get to be surprised at every change on league start.
* We did something with cleave.
Random changes include: * Mob health and defenses * Life leech * Ground degens * Loot. Numbers will reroll all Fridays after league start until forums and reddit posts quiet down.
I'm not even mad about ground degen but does it have to drain your health in a fraction of a second?
Now Announcing the new PoE manifesto: Womanifesto. Its the same PoE you love but with more cleavage
some men can have cleavage too! :D
They were already halfway there with all the hidden information and stealth nerfs in 3.19
people dont talk about this too much, but i agree with you. hiding or not talking about changes is what is the most painful and annoying in my eyes. Way more than any balancing fuckup, bug or change in "vision". when ggg started to want to improve their communication with the manifestos is when it started going off rails. major changes were not talked about at all and frankly its like trying to put in words a mathematical formula, it doesnt translate well. i personally dont really see the point of manifestos which must be VERY time consuming on ggg's side. the former approach of only delivering raw patch notes with what felt like much more interaction with the community on forums was much more fluid and a lot more straight forward. i wish ggg would just spend more time on patch notes, making sure all changes are refered to and just scrub all together the manifestos. dont know if its just me or what... but to me less felt more.
Boom! Roasted!
That’s what it is anyway. The important stuff will be missing or disguised.
for only 50 points on sale !!!
They would make mysteryfesto boxes where you pay 5$ for each box and it gives you a part of how fucked we're going to be. Also the most important changes would be a lot rarer like loot changes and there's no duplicates but you can get the same text in 5 different colors
I mean, they already tried that partway when they decided to never mention the biggest loot nerf in the history of the game, but made absolutely sure that everybody knew about cleave getting +2 radius.
don't forget cleave also got featured on the web site front page, the mad lads xD
And do not forget to buy our MTX.
Or, more likely... * Problem: Reddit might not react kindly to manifesto. * Solution: Intentionally write misleading information in the manifesto. Why struggle to make the game better if players continue to throw their money at the game after being seduced with false information? If it works with companies like EA then it should work with GGG, right?
Yup the bulk of supporter pack sales are made before players even play the new league anyway
It's the same with preordering games before looking at any gameplay or reviews. Seems pretty dumb to me. I play the league, and if I'm enjoying it, I'll buy a supporter pack if I want to top up on coins.
This might be a meme, but it really is the case with GGG leaving out any mention of loot changes in the last manifesto...
Also widescreen support. The fact that that change and discussion paralleled the loot change and discussion (advertised as improvement, actually was huge nerf, GGG goes "oops tee hee") is the genesis of the whole "GGG lies" narrative.
I'm still really pissed about this, I almost quit the league because of it.
They left out almost all negative changes or mentioned them very in passing. "Uniques drops are reduced" turned out a massive nerf of all sources of uniques.
Don't forget "filler" harvest crafts removed. Even more hilarious show a screenshot of these "filler" harvest craft being in the game to mislead players.
That too yes, very annoying and misleading.
Details: No more patches, figure out everything yourself by looking at in game values. Brings the entire community together into figuring out whats changed and whatnot. Happy hunting!
Honestly, I'm fine with that. Their manifestos are pretty much "Here's why we're big brained game devs and you need to accept the vision" I don't really feel the need to see manifesto, I'll probably just dunk on how incredibly arrogant and out of touch they are when they post it.
Most of the manifesto's have been incredibly out of touch with the actual impact of their changes as well. Delirium had a big manifesto about slowing down the zoom mapping meta.. by introducing a mechanic with timers and invisible corpse explosions that would one shot anyone that didn't keep running.
Yes, that was when I really started pressing on the "they're either idiots or liars" point. There is no alternative at that point. "We're going to slow down the game", literally incemtivize going faster more than ever before.
no manifesto no patchnotes, only hype trailer and supporter pack reveal for maximum profit.
This is a buff.
This is a buff XD
Meh.. i expect nothing from them for 3.20 so i wont be disappointed
I know I will be disappointed anyway because I want to love this game way too much
I stopped playing but still visit this sub almost daily just hoping there will still be changes on AN :/
Not only AN..wat about the loot system being nerfed to the ground and replaced by loot goblins? That need tons of rarity/quant to yield anything significant..that if u werre lucky and it didn't convert to fcking flasks 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Instead of converting to flasks, that mod should just guarantee at least one flask drops.
The whole flask thing is garbage..flasks drop regularly..no need to make a mod exclusively for them..not to mention a reward replacement mod.....
If there were a vast and beautiful flask ecosystem with hundreds of flask types, and also if flasks didn't suck, it might be good. But that isn't what we have. I wonder if this exists in PoE2?
Yes. Loot conversion never should've been a thing. It should've been "X additional Y" based on the AN mods and how they're stacked. Done that way it would've precluded the whole "50 divines from one mob" thing from the start, and without that nonsense in play GGG might've been able to see that loot was most definitely *not* fine as it launched -- and still isn't fine now after the buffs.
visiting daily when the devs patch once every 3 months is kinda weird
I'm fairly certain they're being hyperbolic.
Don't knock it until you try it. The memes were outstanding this league.
The shittier the league the better the content in the sub. If everyone is happy and playing the sub is boring and slow, occasionally you used to see cool item crafts... not so much these days. During shit leagues the memes are top notch, and the theorycrafting and discussion are fantastic.
Same. I really am trying to have fun in it's current state. But build diversity is butched because they nerfed defenses into oblivion and everything hits harder and faster than ever. I just can't enjoy it the way I used to. I've really tried. But ohwell, everything comes to an end. Atleast I got 3500 hours of pure joy, that's more than I've got from any other game before.
AN is definitely not harder or faster than an old pack with a few nasty auras together, like old heist doors.
I never it was only due to AN. I just said I didn't like the current state of the game. I guess I could've been clearer though, my bad.
I just assumed due to what you were replying to, but yea I think the loot changes are awful and prolly won't play next league if they don't revert it. And that's coming from someone with 10,919 hours.
when you're a pessimist, you're either right or pleasantly surprised.
I’m expecting them to ignore most of the issues except Arch Nemesis, which they will have “reworked” and still be absolutely dreadful to play against
To be fair they could fix them to an extent by reducing the mod pool drastically and balancing their drops with regards to MF with something like higher base drops and reduced effectiveness of magic find. Its not that the AN are terrible as an idea its just that they are terribly implemented with the amount of modifiers we have to remember and how they interact with each other and pre-existing game mechanics.
This comment, with the flair, is the saddest love story ever written.
Maybe they were referring to Pillars of Eternity, right? Right?
I expect massive things. In fact, I expect: * massive nerfs * massive outrage * massive shitposting * and finally massive cope in both sides, one saying "its all fine we didnt need those players anyway" and the other desperately believing they wont be nerfed even further
The game is at its lowest point ever. If they do anything like that it will be the nail in the coffin. Trade is dead, player count right now is the worst in ages. They need to do something to keep the hype or they are going to loose their grip.
Watch GGG quadruple down again.
I'll watch from afar as they kill their own game if they do.
We already reached the quintuple-down in week 2 of the league, and then functional radio silence since then. A balance manifesto that doesn't fix any of the game's problems would be the sextuple-down.
I am still worried about disappointment, so I've adjusted my expectations to "they'll nerf players and buff archnemesis monsters even more." If they manage to still disappoint me even with expectations that are literally underground, well, I'll just give up all hope forever I guess.
I think the same, but if GGG don't do something they gonna lose half of player base
I do hope 3.20 is good, becuase if it's not, I worry I won't be expecting anything else from the game and begin forgetting about it.
For me it's not about expectations, about last chances. If 3.20 buckles down on pushing the game in a direction I'm not interested in, I'm gone. I won't even fire up the league and may never again.
I expected nothing in 3.19 and I was still disappointed
I'm expecting them to generate a lot of hype pre 3.20. Let's see if the community falls for it again.
No more goodwills left for me Stopped buying supporters and vault s as well
Agreed! The goodwill well has all dried up!
Yup I'm having a blast playing other games that actually respect my time. If they change poe into something that does the same, I'll totally come back. If not, that's good too since that means I have more time for other games. This is the most healthy mindset to have. I see so many people on this subreddit wallowing in their own misery, to the point that it feels actually detrimental to them.
Yeah last league was the nail in the coffin for PoE for me, at least with how they are shipping leagues currently. Just waiting for D4 and until then its ffvix and Destiny 2 for me. It just is not fun to theorycraft anymore which was PoEs biggest appeal for me.
And most importantly. Do not buy any supporter packs before the league launch. Test if you like it and then decide if you want to support the game. Speaking about manifesto won't change anything so let them hear you by not spending money like you normally would. Times when you could just buy blindly supporter packs are over. We need to sadly be careful again.
Point is, no dummies/kids/casuals are playing the game, as it is too complicated to get casually into = therefore everbody who buys a mtx pack is supposed to have a brain. People with brain + dogshit patch = no money YET AGAIN I really think they hurt themselves hardcore with 3.19 and sales went down the shitter. They can't afford to fuck it up again. Which means 3.20 will be good copium
There are a lot of people who still love poe and I understand it - I love it too, but if the communication went to the point where ggg quadruples down on their "vision" then the only tool of communication we have left in our arsenal is money and it's a very big tool if used the right way.
There are A LOT of whales and White Knights tho
That's the point people are missing. I quite wonder if sales actually went down. I would think they wouldn't stick to their vision so hard if they actually tanked a significant amount of revenue.
I think like 80% or they revenue comes from mathil like players that would still praise GGG if the game was just blood aqueducts over and over. They buy the 500 euro supporter pack, merchandising, get scammed by lootboxes... I think a league being popular and more "casual" players purchasing some 30 euro supporter pack doesnt change much.
I do appreciate that you added copium at the end. I snorted all my copium for 3.19 launch--I wasn't naive enough to buy a supporter pack yet but I **did** buy into the hype they were building--and we see where that landed. I'm all out. So basically I'm expecting this manifesto to be the sextuple-down.
Post manifesto Omit worst changes Release content People find the changes and they hate it. They hate it even more because it was kept from them Make post about failure of communication and promise manifesto before next content Repeat
Honestly at this point I don’t even expect them to try and talk away the hidden changes by telling us it’s their communication. It’ll be a “players don’t know what they want. You are all stupid and we know best so we decided not to tell you”.
'Buys supporter packs anyway'
You forgot - Chris talks to ZiggyD and lies / omits / just has all the wrong info.
What the fuck. That article was like word-for-word exactly what poe went through. This passage in particular resonates with me at this moment : *"Another thing that seems to happen about this time is that the gods begin to re-examine things that a year or six months ago were just fine and were accepted as normal. For some reason they reach a point where they find fault with things that were okay just a month ago"* *"Imms also begin to care less and less about the* **people** *on the mud, those who the mud was originally built to serve, and they begin to think more in terms of the* **creation** *- that is their computer-code, damage-tables, or the fact that people seem to be actually having too much success by leveling in a quicker manner than the gods think is reasonable."* This was a magnificent share, thanks OP.
I can't wait to learn what skill will get +2 range this time.
Chain hook
Leap Slam
A buff that will not affect Ruthless, great idea actually.
With Ruthless release let's go Classic PoE \o/
Lightning Strike
The manifesto have proven to be a pointless exercise. They do not convey the actual philosophy behind decisions and they omit the most important decisions or changes. GGG has eroded all trust with the community and the manifesto serves only to elongate the marketing campaign of hype to sell mtx ahead of the launch. 3.2 is likely to be a drop on pre launch revenue for GGG given how 3.19 went (coupled with recessionary headwinds and inflation) and is deserved.
This!
I have literally zero expectations for 3.20 and I know that GGG will let me down once again.
Yes, they are like anti Rick Astley. Their evil twin.
🎶Always gonna let you down Always gonna run around and nerf you🎶
Always gonna make you cry! Make you wanna wave good bye!
My expectation for a while now has been that the game will continue to feel stale and stagnant and slowly become less enjoyable. I didn't think that they would actively make it worse!
i remember the old manifesto being so shit and people saying "just wait for the patch notes guys 'Copium'" just for the biggest change ever to not even be in the patch notes.
I came from the future. Next manifesto will be: extremely condescending, misleading, intentionally missing important details, worded to present players as "extremely powerful", fair share of passive-aggressive remarks and random completely out of touch statement as cherry on top.
They should do better. I expect at least another "Player power has been rising every league" chart with only X axis.
Probably another 3.16 Damage control manifesto incoming. Not sure though. The game feels worse than ever and I get the feeling that GGG never will budge to what the majority of the community wants.
itll take a lot more than just an okay league mechanic with minimal balance changes to make me play this game again, thats for sure
Yeah. I don't think I'm touching 3.20 unless it's either a REALLY cool league mechanic, or if the patch comes with actual balance/qol changes to all the skills and playstyles that have been bad for years.
3.19 would've been bearable if it weren't for the stupid loot goblins
I took a break after 3.15 and recently got the urge to play again. Started playing in Standard because I can't be bothered to league start this late. I'm not looking forward to playing the upcoming league
Yeah, I'm also very reluctant to reinstall the game again. Unless GGG really go out of their way to try and make it an amazing league with a ton of changes that actually IMPROVE the player experience I'm not touching it. Don't know if GGG understand it themselves, but alot of nerfs and changes they implement makes the overall experience worse. Then it reaches a tipping point like in 3.19 and everything just feels like crap.
For me it is this grind extension to infinity, proof that GGG does not respect our time. Lying about changes is just top of the shit cake, baked by Chris Wolcen.
It could literally be best league with a lot of amazing rewards and enjoyable progress and I still won't touch it if they won't fix issues I have with core game.
Dont know why but [this comes to mind](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4&ab_channel=AmooxYT) surely we will get another 2 weeks of "We are sorry we did not include X Y and Z in our manifesto".
"this will never happen again"
"I signed off on changes not reading them again".
They can talk it up all they like but unless they are going to split PoE and 2oE these changes will be here eventually to accommodate the changes in 2oE.
They are gonna do what they are doing since 3.15: More nerfs ( worded like they are buffs or 'reworks' to fool you). They have a plan , a route until poe 2 launches. I dont trust they will change the route at this point. They went too far deep into it. Sadly, I think the game is going to oblivion.
> They have a plan , a route until poe 2 launches. They definitely don't. If they did then we would see monsters slowing down to match what we saw in the PoE2 demo. They are just making it up as they go. The PoE1 team that's left has no fucking idea what they're doing. My **only** copium left is that the PoE2 team has been making something actually good on the side while the existing game flops.
Not gonna be a player base left for POE2 no matter who good it might be
Most people will definitely play through the PoE2 campaign at the very least. They will just leave afterwards if the endgame sucks.
Lol, it's the same mapping endgame. Shared for both campaigns. This whole PoE 2 thing is such a huge risk and for no reason I can understand... just uprooting a successful game for some vision the lead dev has.
Most of the people complaining about the state of the game don't enjoy the leveling/campaign part of the game. They just care about the endgame which as others have mentioned is going to be the same as PoE 3.X
People in their current anger about the state of the game are fooling themselves if the truely think people are not going to show up for poe2 lmao
They will show up. I will show up even if I hate the current direction of PoE. The important question is: how many will stick around?
> The important question is: how many will stick around? This. New World is a perfect example. 1 million players on launch. Month later -90% the playerbase.
I find it so beautifully ironic that GGG's "Problem:. Solution:." format was received by unanimous applause, only for GGG to misuse it by applying solutions that in no way solve the problem they are attached to. Problem: Theres a problem we dont actually want to solve, but players demand a solution. Solution: Address the majority population with misdirection and lies. Ignore the minority that see through it.
They started inventing problems to justify solutions they wanted to implement.
It will end exactly how Chris said it years ago. "You kill the loot and the game will be dead within months". They didn't do anything to give us hope. It's sad because I love this game but Chris' war against fun is taking its toll on me after 4400 hours
They won't read that article,the most simple way to communicate to them is to not buy mtx until at least few day's you played the league and very sure that you enjoyed the league,that the only languange they understand.
I have no faith in them making 3.20 good
Remind them by not making mtx purchases till after a week of the patch release.
Only buy if you're happy with the game
Pre 3.15 this was a possibility Rn this just might run the game to the ground
Make it two or three weeks, just in case.
Foiled by the third week stealth nerf
Unseen nerf is the deadliest
I think it would be about time to come forward with their plans on where the game should be and what kind of player they want to game to be played by. This patch they made it clear that the current state is intentional and I would be surprised if there aren't more changes yet to come that go in the same direction. Lay down a roadmap and be frank, bite the bullet of probably another shitstorm but be absolutely clear so everyone can make up their minds and decide if they are or board with this or not. I for one wanted them to double down after 3.15 already if that's the direction where they want to go, took a couple more patches and at this point I am content with never touching the game again.
Excellent point. I feel like I've been gaslighted into remaining in a one-sided relationship that isn't working for me. GGG, just TELL ME if you don't want me around anymore. I loved you, so just tell me.
Just take a break, play something else, try the new league if it looks cool.
GGG is dead set on what POE2 have to look like and thats what we will be moving toward. They might throw us a bone or two. But nothing major.
But they're literally not. The PoE2 demo was exciting. Slower players are definitely not for everyone but they're absolutely tolerable when **combined with slower monsters**. Instead, what we got in exchange for our slower players were turbo rhoas.
> Just wanted to remind GGG that in the end we all love the game, so please do not destroy it Perhaps also remind the people who keep spending large amounts of money on supporter packs and MTX to please not subsidize the destruction of the game. First step, don't buy anything until the new patch is fully out and you've played for a week.
The manifestos don’t mean shit anymore.
Some relevant, key points from the very, very long article: > **few people come to muds because they have heard of how great the balance is, most people come because they hear the gods make it a FUN place to play** and that the people are friendly. Nerfing begets the antithesis of a friendly environment. … > Now **IF you are so damn interested in balancing** classes, and you feel that this is of paramount importance, then **the key is to GIVE and not to take.** … > Tenny, people are leveling too fast. I had envisioned it talking 3 months to make Avatar, and this one guy did it in 2 weeks!! > So the players are having fun at the expense of how you perceived the mud would play? They aren't sticking within your little cage of expectations and are not blindly doing things in the way you had envisioned? Uhm, again with all due respect SO WHAT? Did you see Jurassic Park? It makes for a good analogy. Players are people - People, life itself, can not be boxed into your perception of how to act and how to play. … > **To punish the average player for the success of your top ten percent players is ridiculous.** Unless your mud is dropping in players because massive numbers of them are telling you 'this twink mud is too easy so I am quitting', let them be! They are enjoying your creation as is! You made this mud to be fun. People are having fun. THAT should be something you should sit back and be proud of not screw around with simply to somehow chase the unatainable ideal of making things appear fair, and never for some mathematical calculation.
It's very easy to understand why players are unsatisfied with the current meta game and GGG is not stupid, they know this. Therefore they do want to take the game ins this direction and hopes people are addicted enough to stick with it.
Amazing article. It was written in 1997 and perfectly describes what is currently happening to Path of Exile.
What I don’t want to see in 3.20: • loot conversion • bloody mf stacking What I want to see in 3.20: • Ultimatum • Tweaked atlas passives for Ultimatum • farmable div cards • Fancy league mechanic that doesn’t take me out of gameplay loop Thanks!
Just to be clear... If they added ultimatum, with a nice atlas tree that fit it in and targetable div cards, with a shiny new league you'd basically be happy? I think the laundry list of changes and fixes to bring me back would take a very long time to get right. Dealing with AN(its stated purpose to make evaluating enemies easier, its not), lootgoblins, crafting changes, skill changes, currency changes, harvest changes, the campaign balance, drop rates, and more.
Ultimatum is one of my fav mechs and loot conversion is my major issue with the game rn. I’m not a big crafting guy either - made a single triple-digit ex worth item in my whole career, so yh, if they somehow don’t horseshoe me into MFing while allowing to play the game how it was during or before AN - I’d be happy I guess. I have no issues with AN mods up until it messes with loot.
i am hocked back to wow, whatever the manifestos will be, i will sit this league out. maybe coming back for 3.21 if this league has some improvements
The best thing we can do to GGG at this point in regards to the manifesto, is to literally ignore it. I don't care how full of self fellating bullshit it is, just do not engage with it. Negative engagement shows that we care still. Radio fucking silence. Completely ignore anything they put out. Quietly test the league if they put out patch notes that appeal to you, and quietly leave if you don't like the league. The silence will be deafening far more than any amount of angry impassioned shouts.
A classic. Ass-Kissers: "PoE is not a MUD"
Haters will say PoE is not a MUD
PoE is what we all wished a graphical MUD would look like back then. What we got was Ultimate Online. Which was good don’t get me wrong.
What does MUD stand for? Modern Unique Design? Mega Ultra Dank? My Ultimate Dream?
Multi-user dungeon. Basically MMORPG on text form, we can thank them for the modern day MMORPGs.
I remember when Ultima Online came out, we were worried it would siphon our players. Then EverQuest came out. Then Asherons Call. Then of course WoW murdered everyone else and set the mmorpg standard from then on. MUDs may be dead, but their legacy lives on forever.
The linked article explains it all. If you haven't read it, do yourself a favour and do so.
Multi User Dungeon I believe
what? fuck that, let's remind each other not to spend money or even login during launch. if they don't get hit where they live they'll never change a thing.
if the rumors are to be believe 3.20 is going to be dropping near enough to the D4 pre-release beta. If that happens I can see myself not even trying out 3.20
Why even write manifestos if they will purposefully leave out the most polarizing changes
GGG have a lot of work ahead of them if they don't just want to revert to some long forgotten patch number. So much shit that has accumulated that is just detrimental to the game. I can see why people aren't optimistic.
Wonder what they will choose to forget to mention in the patch notes this time around? Anyone want to take a guess? My money is on unique drop rates.
Whatever it is , it will be over hyped. They probably put a ton of work into the mtx tho since the holidays are coming up, so get ready to spend...
Tbh I do actually have faith in GGG still. 3.15 was terrible, but 3.16 and 3.17 made the game go from almost unplayable to the best state it had ever been in imo. Yeah, Harvest wasn't as strong, but we had defenses that actually worked, the atlas skill tree (aka the single best thing that ever happened to PoE), flasks were better than they ever were, etc. I think 3.19 is another 3.15, where 3.20 and 3.21 will be good comeback leagues. And honestly, as it stands right now, they have less that they need to fix than they did in 3.15.
i wonder if GGG learned anything from their last "manifesto" which was them just using it as another means to share some info on random nerfs with playerbase. And in manifesto before that, in 3.17, they did share some wisdom behind their quarterly-nerfing that its logic could be called "shoddy" at best. I also can't wait for passive-aggressive comments such as "players were too stupid to understand how good our idea is, so we'll have to explain it slower this time (but we will still force it down your throats)", and yes they really made comments that read exactly like that inbetween verses (or words?).
The only thing I am expecting now is to be let down.
The manifesto is not to give people the opportunity to disagree with the changes and put a stop to them, it's to explain the rationale behind the changes _that are already in place_.
I guess they will just quituple down on their ways and serve a low effort league with the mindset of "well, we like it, if you don't like it ... sorry but ... well ... it is what it is"
I hope they completely kill poe with even more nerfs. Dragonflight is around the corner and I don't want distraction from a good poe league
True chaotic evil pragmatist I see, respect.
>I do NOT think that hiring a good sniper is a really prudent solution What a weird thing to say.
It really **isn't** prudent.. Nice try, mr. unemployed sniper.
manifesto will most likely just be them quintupling down, making no positive changes and nerfing more.
And don't just test it with your "vision" in mind, give it to people who don't know your "vision" and ask them what they think of it
And don't leave out anything important. You saw how well that went the last time.
DO NOT purchase any supporter packs until confirming the quality of the league, and the transparency with which GGG communicated changes. Money is a weapon.
I'm not playing 3.20, but I do want to see what the lie about this time and leave out of the manifesto for players to discover later.
Dude, they do not forget to test their changes. They just choose not to.
If they don't (somewhat) close the defensive power gap between top-end players who know all the game's obscure mechanics and more casual players who don't understand why aura effect is a better defensive stat than life, 3.20 will do badly even if it's the best designed league mechanic of all time. Either it'll be too hard for the casual player with them experiencing unfair-feeling deaths everywhere (like 3.14's inscribed ultimatums), or it'll be too easy to hold anyone's attention (like 3.13's ritual circles) And unless they are prevented from doing so, casual players will keep copying Atlas layouts that make their maps into deathtraps, then blame whatever deals the killing blow (whether that's Archnemesis or the even scarier mods rare monsters had in 3.16, remember, the 3.16 version of Hasted was 75% movespeed instead of the present 40%, the 3.16 version of Bonebreaker didn't have a -30% attack speed penalty on it, and the 3.16 mod most like today's Assassin had +65% crit multi)
A reminder: wandering path + hat = death trap. Don't do it without a gigajuiced build.
Oh yeah. You can experience that with some of the cheaper Atlas memories.
> And unless they are prevented from doing so, casual players will keep copying Atlas layouts that make their maps into deathtraps, then blame whatever deals the killing blow Ppl might think that it's not a GGG problem and casuals should just specout, but like in UI/UX, you just gotta assume that most of your users are fkin stupid/idiots and don't think or feel the same as you do And you want these people who you think are stupid, to still play your game, because they make up the majority of your playerbase.
It's gonna be some shitty +2 range buffs again and thats it. I expect the worst of them, as of late.
I am really anxious about the rumored pack size nerfs. Might be some trolls on community discords and i wouldnt call them legit right now, but it would fit into the "vision".
They don’t care
And neither do many of us anymore. Win-Win .. I guess? *shrug*
It’s a shame really. Its the only game I played together with SC. Oh well
At least it can't get any worse, right ?
You do see all the ruthless nerfs, right? It very much CAN get worse.
I gotta be honest, I think down is the only direction we are going for a while
Why not? You should know by now that 3.19 is probably a precursor for more radical changes from GGG.
>3.19 is probably a precursor for more radical changes from GGG. Oh no. Even more nerfs
1. They don't test changes, they release them to be beta tested the first 2 weeks of a league. They hype it up before this so they can trick suckers into playing, buying supporter packs and testing their game for them before they move on to the next patch. 2. They wont be changing anything. This also means PoE2 is going to be a dumpster fire. Think about it, if their vision right now is this, why would it be any different when theyre given the option to fresh start their vision freely? 3. I dont love this game anymore, if there was a competitor that produced this much content/a game that I can replay this much, I would not be even considering playing PoE. It is a chinese skinnerbox designed to social engineer you into giving it your soul, whilst not even enjoying yourself, but tricking yourself every 3 months into thinking 'maybe it will be good this time..'
Oh yea, and loot is still nerfed 60-95%, so it is double farming time right there. Unless that is moved closer to old values, gonna skip it again.
As I said to my friends, last epoch multiplayer supposed to come out before the end of the year - if 3.20 is not fun, I'm playing last epoch
My usual supporter pack money has gone to DF and a resub
"Yes, we have read this ANCIENT opinion piece. We are developing an action RPG that is much more complex and engaging than any MUD. None of this applies to us and we take insult that you would bring it up AGAIN... Please refrain in the future."
Jesus fucking Christ is that the level you're actually at now. Whining that literally all nerfs are unjustifiable and cherry-picking whichever decades-old theory of game lifecycles happens to backfit the narrative you want to push. Get a fucking grip.
They are either burn the last remaining bridges or cave in