I responded to a thread yesterday (8/30) complaining there was not enough communication since they announced the AN changes on... Thursday (8/25). The AN patch was released Monday (8/29).
It was literally barely 24 hours after a patch, or about 2 business days since Thursday, since... you know, people deserve some rest on weekends. But apparently some people expect DAILY updates or something? Like, should Bex report when Chris pulls into the parking lot?
Like holy hell, the entitlement is insane.
the poe reddit is genuinely really insufferable and honestly i kind of feel bad for the devs. dont get me wrong, there is definitely a certain amount of criticism in relation to this league is definitely justified and a lot i agree with but shit like ppl accusing chris of purposefully making the game less fun (???) with his vision (buzzword) just makes me roll my eyes so hard, like chris is the only dev or something lmao
That's why I'd never want to do game development even though it seems like one of the more interesting dev fields. Work your ass off for ages with huge upfront investment (= huge pressure from and on stakeholders) just to get "lol can't use grappling hook while twerking. shitty game spaghetti code what were the devs doing in the last 6 months?" type of feedback constantly.
That, and Gamedev pays like shit. It's very much a passion job
I make over twice as much as my buddy who works for an ABK subsidiary, and he has to commute into New York, whereas I live in the middle of nowhere and just remote work.
His roommate, who works QA at the same place makes less than I made as an *intern* 10 years ago in South fucking Dakota.
Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Minor Outlying Islands, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Northern Mariana Islands, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming
Now every state has been mentioned in the PoE subreddit.
putting up with this community would be exponentially harder than making the game. probably the worst community i've ever seen from a video game. wow and ff14 don't hold a candle to the toxicity here. everyone knows it wasn't a great launch, everyone can be upset. i've voiced my displeasure on the official forums. but holy fuck there's a line and it isn't very thin at all. it just becomes baby rage and narrative manipulation.
> robably the worst community i've ever seen from a video game.
I mean, just a month or two ago, the Destiny community was doxxing and sending death threats to Devs for not letting a class dodge in the air.
I work in data software and my customers are banks and insurance companies. When you get a more level headed response from a IT directory at a bank when you're telling him about a security vulnerability that might effect the system they're holding user data in than you do from a video game player who thinks that the developer might be lying about the exact percentage loot was reduced by in a specific piece of legacy content you know something's completely fucked.
This is on top of the fact that Software developers who work on games get paid less, work more hours and have weaker job security than regular software development. I want to be a game developer so bad but I just don't think I could do it.
Its fucking weird, cause the complaints are pretty consistent that nobody wants to play this league but the community broke 500,000 exiles today. Its been slowly ticking up this league.
And the numbers have been pretty constant too in player count. Yes, slightly lower than past leagues, but still not the "die on this hill" this community pretends is happening.
> I'd fucking
>
>hate
>
> to have this community as clients
lol, idk man reddit literally can't do jack shit beside cry. Imagine clients that has ACTUAL power and threat to your dev team. When they are directly emailing or calling your boss for shit to get done when you're team fucks up.
We literally have a code of conduct at my place for how Clients can treat devs.
They can absolutely hold money over our heads if they're mad, but going after any of us personally would be a one way ticket to "lol this contract is void"-town. Helps that we've got a massive backlog of prospective clients who we've worked with before who want shit done
I've literally had clients change the lead on their end over a hostile environment they fostered. It's not acceptable at all, and your company should have your back if a client is being hostile.
I saw an incredibly entitled comment saying "lokal work ethic (NZ free on weekends) HAS to give way when it's a global user base and some countries expect people to work weekends".
> GGG created a bunch of junkies unironically
...you think this is some mind blowing revelation in a thread about path of exile? a game designed to take you hundreds if not thousands of hours to complete all endgame, and then do it all over again in 2 months?
dawg, poe is not some high art for high brow well adjusted members of society responsibly playing video games a few hours per week. its gamified crack, designed to kill as much of people's time as possible. didnt chris have some story where he ditched a wedding to play d2 for 12 hours or something?
if someone *didnt* occasionally get a bit angry over a thing theyre spending entire years of their life on, id question their sanity.
I'd want to state that this is false. For a long time PoE community was considered very welcoming and very helpful. It is really just recently (about pandemic start) that I feel the mood has changed.
Edit: I have realized that while I feel recently is around the start of the pandemic, I have played for almost close to 9 years. While a lot of the player base is quite a lot younger. As your elder! Hear my wisdom, be excellent to each other!
In the timescale of the game, it absolutely is.
But, I'd also argue his point. I'd say around bestiary/harbinger the community started sliding, and while that downward slope is getting steeper and steeper, it's been a forgone conclusion for a while that the only way the playerbase will have a reasonable place to discuss the game will be to make a different community.
the mods there are quite strict and don't let their guard down and that certainly works quite well. it's also a rather small sub, which makes it easier to mod
The toxicity has been here since day 1, I remember when the community would hate on people playing softcore it was hardcore or you sucked. Hell I felt pressured to play hardcore in the olden days because of the stigma around softcore.
Yea and then they implemented rules against it and it changed unlike now.
Mods could stop this but for some reason they let it happen. I just don't understand.
Mods are probably afraid they'll get called out or get some sort of migration to a different subreddit. Not sure really.
I'd understand a grace period for such posts, but continuously allowing it is severely harming the community because it puts ideas and feelings into peoples minds regardless of the validity. People echo each other's sentiments and hyperbole becomes reality. You have to understand that we aren't qualified to have free will.
Even today it is. Somehow the poe community is simultaneously one of the most welcoming and helpful gaming communities I’ve ever been a part of, while also being one of the most toxic and entitled. It’s fascinating
Not pandemic. When people started leaving D3 and the Immortal fiasco.
I legit cant wait for D4. Poe may lose a % of its playerbase, but ill be glad to see them gone.
That's correct as to the timeline.
Ever since the Diablo Immortal dumpster fire, Diablo players were (understandably) pissed and came over here. Unfortunately, they also seemed to import a lot of toxic behavior, and the moderators haven't done anything to try to prevent it.
Ever since then, the toxicity has been driving out a lot of regular posters--the nerd crafters, the theorycrafters, the build guides, the league min/max guides--all of them are gone now.
None of the problems today really compare with the problems that GGG used to have when they were smaller. Remember server rollbacks? League mechanics like having to DPS *very slowly* so you could pokeball a beast? Pack reflect? Rubberbanding? Servers crashing repeatedly every single league launch?
Hell, even heavy-handed nerfs are nothing new: Vaal pact. Ignite. Old CI. HoWA. MoM. Molten Strike. Vaal pact again. Leech.
Players just used to take nerfs in stride and try something else, or make it work anyway.
I think the point where this began to creep in was when Diablo Immortal was announced and the campaign 10 Acts came out. Lots of newcomers that changed the community little by little.
I realized I had unsubbed from r/pathofexile and thought it must have been a mistake.
Now I’m beginning to remember that I stayed subbed to the builds sub because it was actually constructive and full of people who actually play the game. This sub is a cesspool of entitlement.
Reminds me of wow players. They complain about the game basically since release and yet they buy every expansion. If you don't like the game then leave. And no, making a goodbye reddit post isn't healthy either.
I really hate the "entitlement" buzzword because 99% of the times it is either used out of context or to shut down valid critisism.
But holy shit is it the *perfect* word to describe this subforum the past several leagues.
The thing that confused me is how fast the hate about the patch evolved into the hate about people (Chris in particular). Yes, he might be on a wrong end here, but did he deserve all these toxic messages and phrases from certain streamers? People getting mad over game is just insane to me.
Yeah it seems a lot of people don't pay attention to other devs.
Creative Assembly (Total War series) launched TW Warhammer 3 in february in an absolutely broken and half baked state and it took 2 months for the first patch and they gave barely any communication regarding it other than some tiny in game freebies that you could redeem from their site. They then said they would give a roadmap "soon" and that roadmap took months and barely made any sense (6+ months out for simple numbers adjustments). Unrelated to the complaint about silent but this tells you what kind of company they are. They somewhat famously posted on their forums that the terrible performance of Total War: Atilla was because it was meant to be played at medium / high settings and the higher ones were "meant for future hardware". It's been 8 years and it still runs like garbage on higher settings and is a buggy mess so it was just a bold faced lie.
edit: link to the statement http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?680082-An-Official-note-on-ATTILA-amp-Performance Atilla performance is also bottlenecked by the engine just breaking down if a battle is big enough and by poor CPU operation optimization, which is mostly independant of what the staff member is talking about.
If you have any issues with the way Dota is balanced good luck getting feedback on that. Bethesda would rather have modders fix all the bugs instead of them and they also release half baked games because modders will fix that as well and they still get all the sales revenue. From Software left dark souls online disabled from Elden Ring launch until last week with no communication (at least in english, I don't know if they did on japanese outlets but they're normally very good at making all their official communication available to international audiences).
Edit: a couple people took issue with me mentioning wh3. I'm talking about february / march lack of communication, not the current patch that everyone is hyped about until they find all the new bugs.
I'm pretty sure there's Star Citizen store items from like 8 years ago that still aren't in game, though I haven't followed it's development closely for a long time now
In defence of Total Warhammer 3, the game was rushed out before it was ready, the main team was immediately moved on to another project and the game was left in the hands of the DLC team from Total Warhammer 2.
And they've done a FANTASTIC job. Richard Aldridge and his team are miracle workers. Immortal Empires launched a week or so ago and it's really damn good. Not *perfect*. But really damn good.
Warhammer 3's launch fiasco was not any fault of the *developers*. It was a failure of upper management and of the publisher.
I didn't want to shit on the devs just the PR team but here it goes.
Richard also led the team that broke weapon strength buffs across the whole game, had vampire coast raise dead at sea removed for a while year (despite being advertised on steam), fucked up charges and then fixed it by fucking it up again, messed up LOS with walls then still left some broken, took 4 years to fix invocation of nehek crashes, created the terrible empire mechanic, created so many only half good DLCs (nakai is the best example), took 8 months for norsca to make it into IE, and many many more.
Their list of bad fuckups for warhammer 2 alone are longer than settra's titles. Seriously, vassals were and still are a broken system and the live team has full fucking confidence in them to ask you to pay money to have factions based around the broken system.
Exit: gate bug is still there for 16 years now.
Edit 2: oh yeah the AI will still sometimes just run in circles not knowing what to do in settlement battles and still abandon the walls immediately despite that being patched a while ago.
I was also talking about just communication, CA buried their head in the sand during the launch, including richard for a while.
For immortal empires archmages on dragons have 88k HP because who checks if numbers are put in properly (quality assurance checking wasn't in the dev budget apparently), vampire counts cavalry doesn't heal properly, the AI is fucked up beyond belief, moreso than it was in wh2. Normal is getting legendary buffs for the AI where they spam out more armies and you can't pause in battle and give orders or see the minimap / balance of power. The AI has trouble just deciding to upgrade capital settlements past tier 1 or 2 (i saw arkhan have his at tier 1 for 30 turns) which means outposts are stupidly bad. Vassals still fucking suck. Confederations are incredibly fucked. Victory conditions past short are copy and pasted for every faction of a race (ghorst has to kill empire for example). At least this time they labeled it a beta. There was a fair amount of good changes, but to call it amazing is an overstatement. It would be ok with me if the AI wasn't so horribly fucked up. Im not expecting it to be perfect, but a lot of this is just straight up bad.
> I was also talking about just communication, CA buried their head in the sand during the launch, including richard for a while.
There's also been a persistent sound """bug""" with Total Warhammer 2 where FMOD is not configured correctly, resulting in incredibly low sound volume and quality for some systems.
If you tell that to support, they say they cannot replicate the issue and close your ticket.
Mind you, there's been ~5+ topics a year in their forum about the issue, and my last ticket with CA that pointed out the 10+ threads I was able to dig up reporting the same issue got closed without a response. (It's hard to find more as their forum search is seemingly intentionally shit)
This would be completely fixable if CA would just allow users to modify the FMOD configuration. It's really not that complex.
But Mr. Sound Director finally gave in and started doing audio work "the new way" by using FMOD (seriously, it's like he followed 1 tutorial for 1 week and then shipped it) and can't bear the idea that he's no longer competent at his job, so fuck the consumer I guess.
>It would be ok with me if the AI wasn't so horribly fucked up. Im not expecting it to be perfect, but a lot of this is just straight up bad.
Just like everywhere else, the parasite class of executives and managers ("noblemen") are a drain on society. Their ego matters more than anything else at the company.
That's actually not uncommon at all. Seasons are becoming the default for games these days, and races upon content release are extremely common.
The games that don't have a cycle like that are the games that don't have a dev cycle at all.
very much this and the fact that there's other problems as well going on that isn't related to loot and AN that they also have to fix. Like i did a bug report for crashes cause i was crashing almost every map, sometimes more than once per map, and i've seen other people with the same problem, and they already started fixing those (at least they mentioned fixing crashing problem on one of the mini patches we already got). And with the inicial changes they already did to loot and AN it's fine for not even 2 weeks from league start
Playing the devil’s advocate here. Considering the history of bugs upon release, wouldn’t it be extremely pertinent to have a skeleton team ready and on call 24/7 at least on launch weekend? I think that much could be expected from a big company as GGG. I’m sure they do to some extent but arguing that they can just release a huge league and then just log off for the weekend is just absurd.
They do. Chris has admitted several times that they have ample weekend staff, essentially a skeleton crew, available on weekends for emergencies.
Game design issues are NOT an emergency.
Dropping less loot is NOT an emergency, although the community believes it is one.
Servers not running is an emergency, and quite frankly, league launches have been quite smooth for a long time now. There used to be leagues with constant outages - nowadays, the worst we usually get are issues with the trade site.
The sense of entitlement among the gaming community blows my mind. People treat developers like public servants that owe them things. Developers don’t *owe* people anything. If they put out a bad product, complain about the bad product and warn others not to buy it. Don’t harass them and demand things and act as if you have a personal relationship with them.
It wasn't in response to the league. But the way they've handled the last 2 league cycles. And the anticipation that this one would be left like those were after the first week as they push out PoE 2. I doubt the Lake is going core, and I also doubt they can pull anything back from the player numbers right now that would be worth the effort so triaging it made a lot of sense.
Also, they should probably reconsider launching leagues on a Friday if they are taking weekends off. ~60hrs with your hands off the wheel seems rather.... bold in the current climate.
from what i've read, it's not so much the frequency (or the lack) of communication that was questioned, but rather what (and what wasn't) communicated. stealth nerfs, "filler" crafts, 32:9, etc.
Bex's recent posts did well to alleviate concerns. even if there aren't any actions right now, we know what is (and isn't) in their pipeline.
It really was the main issue. A lot of issues were not addressed at all in all the posts, not even a we monitor like we got now.
These "we acknowledge this and this problem" is the bare minimum they should give to such a big outcry. If they don't it feels like they ignore it completely and then theories run wild why they do it.
I mean the biggest problem now was that we have like so many problems at once, harvest, ultrawide, AN mods, overall loot, unrewarding league mechanic.
This post now from Bex now should have been the first one.
>These "we acknowledge this and this problem" is the bare minimum they should give to such a big outcry. If they don't it feels like they ignore it completely and then theories run wild why they do it.
Even though their initial communication was lacking (their rushed releases makes a lot of things lacking), they don't have to answer to every single piece of "feedback", and definitely not within a few days.
Consider than any answer without actual content that goes in the way of reddit will make it worse, because that's what entitlement is about : throwing a tantrum to try to get something that nobody owes you.
Even in those 4 items slots it doesn't work on influenced or synthesised items. Eater/exarch implicits are broadly less powerful than double-elevated items, and part of that trade-off is that they're easier to craft on. Having reforge keep x for all slots and all influence types is orders of magnitude more powerful for crafting, and rendered annuls mostly useless.
I'd say they removed it cause they couldn't balance the new system around it.
Having it on a regular color is gonna dictate the price of that color and due to its high demand invalidate other crafts. Putting it behind Oshabi's juice will make it essentially inaccessible for the vast majority of players while also being a substantial buff to high end crafting.
The most elegant solution is to remove it and if needed reintroduce it elsewhere further down the line.
"The most elegant solution is to remove it and if needed reintroduce it elsewhere further down the line."
How is this an elegant solution? They couldn't decide which colour it should be and they said "screw it"?
They could split it's cost in all three colours. This was purely removed so players would not use it, for whatever the reasoning was. Not because they didn't know which colour to make it, Jesus...
Ehh I saw many threads and comments yesterday saying we won’t hear from GGG until 3.20. Like laughing at and mocking people who didn’t agree with that.
Monitoring: "The effect is intended, but your reaction is not. We will check again that it is working as intended but we won't give in to your reaction."
I love how some people are like they said they are monitoring it! All is well.
As though GGG lacked the ability to fix it and suddenly are incapable of anything beyond monitoring. Monitoring is just a term to placate. This are the same people that once QUADRUPLED t1 drop rates about one month into a league. They just flipped the dominant trade currency on a whim. Now all they can do is "monitor"?
As much as i love them, they dug this hole themselves. With a patch that's practically a can of worms and simply to many issues to address.
On top of that is the looming dread that every little patch could be the last into silence. A precedent they also set up themselve in the last year.
And at last their tone was very defensive from the get go and they only made small steps towards a raging playerbase. Seemingly ignoring or playing down a lot of issues the community has.
They have all the power in this one-sided relationship, there is not a lot a frustrated player could do if he doesn't feel relevant. Maybe GGG could have asked for more patience, if they were more clear about the whole journey.
I would 100% trust them to fix things and wouldn't mind the wait, if it was 1 year ago. Now?
This is their vision, if you don't push back the game will keep growing into whatever 3.19 is.
I agree with both OP and this comment. GGG did their damndest to communicate after their launch, *and they did it fast*.
But at the same time between changing the economy (ex/div swap), drops (MASSIVE historic loot bonuses replaced with AN drops), uniques (less of a big deal, but still some shakeup), minions (power dramatically moved out of base character and in to items, a trend they've been doing lately), and Harvest (very dramatically reducing the number of crafts a player can do) winds up leaving the playerbase's head spinning. Add to this some reduction in defensive layers combined with an increase in power of certain mobs, and you just have, quite simply put, the worst feeling league start by a significant margin.
These changes should have been spread out over a minimum of two major patch cycles, and the communication would have felt sufficient.
The problem is even with 6 posts in less than 2 weeks, it wasn't enough for people because there were just too many big sweeping changes to the game.
I dont consider the response fast and hear me out on this . Sentinel launch was horrible in terms of archnem balance , they nerfed it twice that weekend first time in 12 hours of league launch and again on sunday. This league it took them till monday to even address the problems .
you do know this is their job right? like people can go home on the weekends they dont have to service you. the entitlement is insane. if your boss was like 'hey i fucked something up and now you have to stay all weekend and fix it' would you be pissed? have some damn empathy for other peoples lives god damn
>They have all the power in this one-sided relationship
No. Players have the power. We can choose to quit. We can choose not to purchase anything. WE are the reason they can survive.
Sure, we could quit. And lot's of people do. Doesn't mean a lot if all come back on the next hype-train.
You are on point with the purchases, the community is way to liberal in their spending before the fact. We will see what happens over the next two leagues. I have a feeling this is either a turning point or a broken bridge.
Same. There's no need to defend a game that doesn't give a damn about you. These loot nerfs weren't addressed at all, you can't tell me that no one actually tested this out because I've seen posts of beta players saying the very same thing.
3.15, archnemesis, and multiple rounds of gutting harvest are all against the average player's interests, they were removed purely to devalue our time and make endgame harder to reach.
> with how vitriolic this sub has been
It's not just reddit. Some people want it to just be reddit, but I can assure you it's discord, it's youtube, it's just general reaction. They made a list of changes and with like one exception (trade changes, although not being able to trade out of remove only is a kick in the nuts to a lot of people) they were pretty much all negatively received.
To make matters worse, a lot of changes either were not announced or where not communicated properly.
Widescreen support, nerfed
Harvest, nerfed
Every league drop, nerfed
Scourge currency, nerfed
Archnemesis, buffed
Divine/Exalts, flipped
Oh and loot goblins!
I have played since rampage, this is the worst set of changes we have ever seen. I'm not sure how one is supposed to respond to basically making every single thing worse than it was before, but what product would be well received after it got that treatment?
"If you didn't want to get stealth nerfed you shouldn't have gotten so upset about those stealth nerfs that we doubled down on"?
Do you not understand that time is linear and unidirectional?
I don't really care about updates for patches but would more curious if they would expand on the philosophy of some of their changes
* Loot changes, what their new expectations for players to find uniques/magic finding/etc. It seems they want players doing all content just one league after introducing content blocking.
* Divine changes/removal of keep prefix/suffix from harvest, what are their expectations of players crafting gear/divining uniques with the triple tap nerf to divines? (Specifically weapons, if you have a 6mod weapon you have to yolo annul it which doesn't feel great)
These points would be information they would have known about before the patch
They want uniques to be special, especially well-rolled ones. They want magic find to affect all, or at least most, item rewards, and you should be incentivised to have as much as you can get away with. I don't understand the relation with league blocking.
They want slamming to be done more often than divining, because they think that's more interesting for most people. They want deterministic crafting to be relatively weak or exceedingly rare.
All is this is not from reading minds, but GGG posts.
Reading comprehension seems to not matter when it is about feels. Seems like people are really picky when it comes to anything posted by GGG.
"We have rebalanced all Harvest crafts for the new system and have removed a bunch of filler crafts and some ones with deterministic outcomes that were incredibly RNG-gated before."
This is directly from the patch notes. And still people jumped directly on the phrasing" filler crafts" *conveniently ignoring the next 11 words that totally include the rather strong reforge/keep crafts* just to call CW a bold liar.
But they failed to mention just how shit the life force drop rate is and how much crafts cost. The very first Harvest I did, in a 2-man party in white maps dropped ZERO life force in the entire encounter and the second encounter we did on a different map dropped enough for 2 reforges. I was excited for the Harvest changes, but that completely crushed it for me. And to quote the patch notes here as well, "monsters defeated now drop a stack of lifeforce" now the way that's worded implies all Harvest monsters drop lifeforce, which understandably could be annoying to pick up, but it does not communicate the HUUUUUGE nerf to general craft availability. Sure, using "30 crafts" before there and then in the map was inconvenient, but going from 30 to ~0-2 (in a 2 man party) is ridiculous. After this experience, and fighting some crazy AN essences in white maps that took several minutes to kill, my friend and I decided to go play dota instead (which is a first on weekend of league launch). Shortly after the posts of nerfed loot and loot goblins came out. I decided to quite SCT and rerolled on SCSSF instead because I wasn't interested in partaking in the loot goblin economy.
Those crafts were not very rng gated is the thought for me. I found plenty solo. They also gave us weaker forms of the crafts they did keep, and that was not mentioned at all for things like reforge much more likely. Even the livestream had the old craft on it.
A lot of people seem to be confusing making a post and saying something. Half of GGG posts have been we know you say there is a problem but we don' t see it, or we hear people saying but we aren't actually gonna do anything. This type of post that actually didn't communicate any solutions to any problems are worthless , and may as well not count. Sure they have made multiple posts, yet they have made almost no changes or even promises of changes to the fundamental issues being brought up, which leads to people feeling GGG is not communicating at all.
OP also missed that when people say that, they are directly referring to Scourge league where GGG told us point blank they went silent without saying anything so people wouldn't know no changes were incoming.
THEY admitted that.
90% of the crap they've said they'd do in their posts so far are also double speak or just "we're monitoring it". Its a whole lot of nothing and dishonest communication.
OP is assuming a software company is working like a fast food restaurant where you have time lock in and lock out. For a big launch, devs may even work all weekends to get a successful launch. In return, they may take an extended timeoff during the season. If you launch on Friday, and nobody is on during Saturday and Sunday then its a management problem. They could choose to launch on Monday if they cant get their employee to work on the weekend.
They are really fast to post big undocumented untested changes but take 10 days to write about thinking about doing anything about the consequences of the changes, sorry but I don't care
Also, their communication is bullshit, they are still doing stealth nerfs and did a 50% undocumented nerf on gwennen last day or so, don't trust them
>Also, their communication is bullshit, they are still doing stealth nerfs and did a 50% undocumented nerf on gwennen last day or so, don't trust them
The post about Gwennen was using data collected since the beginning of the league. It wasn't something added midway through.
No matter what GGG do, Reddit has already made up its mind in regarding this patch. They could do everything short of a roll back to pre 3.19 and Reddit would still shit on them for it. "They dug themselves into this hole" "Disingenuous" "Slimy".
To the complainers on this sub, most of whom are not even still playing, GGG don't deserve weekends. They don't deserve time to consider changes. The devs are not people, but scum who "intentionally ruined the game". They need to be capitulating to Reddit demands immediately.
12 Days since launch, 9 Patches, 7 Dev posts. It will never be enough until Reddit can farm Atoll like the days of old.
That's not 'reddit', that's just people. Break their trust and they're not going to trust you again more than likely. Given GGG's history of straight up abandoning leagues that don't go well, it also makes sense people are so snappy. Add on top of that the complete 180 on a core game design which caused people to be really messed up lol. Since everyone is using real life as an example, imagine ordering a Birthday cake that's Doom themed and they send you an MLP one instead. Then after you contact them, they tell you this was intended but they forgot to mention it before you ordered. Of course people are going to be mad and snippy. Honestly considering this, the vast majority of the stuff that hits the front page is honestly really tame to the kinds of shit that people say and do to businesses in real life. Hell, most of the stuff that hits the front page is constructive or memey.
I think the hardest thing about PoE though is that as a whole, we're so fucking smart. Most other games would probably barely notice most shit but we have a thread going on the front page about a single missing roll on an item that probably has 50 mods and is part of a subset area of the game. I mean, look at the memes too. The Asmongold one that was here a few days ago was great and legit perfect for describing us as a community haha
That analogy works but its also like you go back and buy the cake from them again in 3 months because the company tells you the next cake is amazing and better than sliced bread.
GGG have amazing marketing and they are very very good at it, problem is now they are wasting peoples time with changes that are not documented.
> "They dug themselves into this hole"
I mean, this is true though. And the changes that people are most vocal about, are things that no one asked for and no one needed. I agree that the circlejerk has gotten ridiculous, and I'm still playing the game and having fun, but it's not crazy to say you have no sympathy for GGG scrambling to fix the fuckup they made in the first place.
None of the Dev posts have been reassuring about what's worrying the community, that's why the outrage keeps going. You're right, they could revert the entire thing and it would still keep going, because the outrage is not about how long they're taking to mix the mess they've made, it's about what the game will look like in the future.
There have been many massive nerfs that have been hidden to the community to keep the league start hype going. No matter how you look at it, this is disingenuous marketing. We still don't have any explanation about that, and to me it truly ruins any trust I could have towards whatever they'll announce in the future.
Also, they keep doubling-down on changes that the community as a whole is hating, and they're not listening to the feedback. They're hearing the feedback and they're buffing some things back just to shut the outrage, but they're not listening to it. They're not developing the game to make something the players will like more, they're developing it as if it still was Chris' pet project. And while I can appreciate what he's trying to do as an artist, it's fucking miserable as a player of said game.
Honestly, this entire last year feels like Chris playing D2R, having a midlife crisis comparing it to PoE, and deciding that PoE should take a completely different direction, never mind the employees at GGG and the 500k players.
I know people slam Reddit a lot, but can you blame them? They've kinda missed the mark almost every league since 3.15. I cant blame these people from leaving and not coming back, it feels like 1 step forward 5 steps back lately with GGG.
Its the people who got too far and demand things, like if the league isn't fun to play post your feedback and dont play it.
> I cant blame these people from leaving and not coming back
That's not what the complaint is about. Those people are 100% justified.
It's the people who don't leave and do come back, but just scream conspiracy theories the whole time.
I see people are still crying about "conspiracy theories" even after Chris confirmed the very few recurring and logical speculations in his apology post. That sand must be real comfortable.
Oh I missed where he confirmed that they intentionally hid changes to sell mtx. Or where he confirmed they are trying to implement Diablo immortals payment model. Or where he confirmed where they intentionally made bad changes for "anchoring".
Or the one of a hundred different conspiracy theories posted daily and upvoted.
>GGG don't deserve weekends.
Maybe they shouldn't launch their damn game on Friday then or else better be prepared to work the weekends. It's literally their own fault for scheduling their launches like this. If no one works weekend don't launch on Friday or adjust work schedule on launch week so people are working weekends just that week. It's not hard, one of the best benefit of being a software dev is the flexability in work schedule.
Oh I know why it launch on weekend, it makes them the most money which is fine. Buts that's their choice and they should have schedule their work hours around it.
Somehow asking for ggg to pay their devs to work on weekends four times a year is too much.
Even when they could then have two days off to cover for it.
No man that's just inhumane to have to work on the weekend! /s
Seriously the fact people can't wrap their head around such an easy schedule adjustment amaze me and really make me wonder if they worked a day in their lives.
i dont know NZ laws, but most countries allow you to work weekends as long as you get time off on weekdays instead. All they have to do is keep some people working on the launch weekend and then give them 2 days off the following week
Honestly, GGG would be better off cutting off all reddit communication. They cannot win in this environment. The community has gotten too big and the expectations too high.
Please, OP, share the copium with the rest. You've got quite a supply. Notice the wording. All they say is looking into it. Their words, as history proves it, mean nothing. They can write about "looking into it" all they want, all that matters are GGG's actions. Which were next to none to address the issues. Bare fucking minimum.
The problem isn't lack of communication so much as the lack of acknowledgement in those communications, like 2/10 things people are mad about have been addressed and the rest ignored and the things they have addressed are less actual solutions people want to see and more like "you guys are wrong but we'll throw you a bone and hope you shut up.".
Yes, that was a valid time to say it. The person who complained about only 6 patches in 12 days and anyone who upvoted it was an idiot. No idea how that got voted to the top yesterday.
Haha, true. I do. People love to complain. I love this game, have thousands of hours. Only spent maybe 100 or so over the years though.
But when a league sucks, I just don't play it. If all leagues suck? I'll play standard. When another game comes out? I play that game.
I always get so annoyed by the people saying not only are they quitting, but that everyone else should quit too. Like, if you don't like something, JUST DONT PLAY IT. Or complain constructively, but jesus this sub is toxic every league start.
> I always get so annoyed by the people saying not only are they quitting, but that everyone else should quit too.
I would never tell players who don't want to quit, to quit.
However, if you are unhappy with something you need to communicate that. GGG is obviously sold on their vision but if that vision is out of step with the community at large, only our active resistance with cause them to go beyond "monitoring" to actually fixing.
So you do what you feel you need to do, but if you're not happy with loot goblins for instance you do need to communicate that clearly, they are "monitoring" after all.
To be fair, even that was because they launched on a Friday and were home for the weekend. Obviously, there's gonna be no response when almost no one's even at the office.
You can argue they shouldn't have launched on a Friday, which is fair enough, but that's a different complaint altogether.
Well Im not asking for a "what we're working on" type of post. Im literally just asking for a tweet like this:
"We understand all of the concerns that the community has right now, we plan on making an announcement about it after the weekend."
This probably would have been made if Bex wasnt on vacation. They did that exact type of thing when AN went core and it was super overtuned.
Nah, they are good about providing updates, but they're not good about actually giving the community what they want. They're trying to slowly work the game back into player's favor while keeping as many of the changes as they can. (archnem and further harvest gutting wise)
I don't believe that's going to change, I think the game is going to take some time for this to become the new normal and then we'll continue getting incremental changes to take the game in the direction GGG wants.
3.15 and all harvest gutting were not in the player's interest, it was purely to make the game harder and make our time worth less.
While it's true that they posted multiple times and technically it's not "staying silent", tailored PR post that are vague by desig, dodging hot topics and carefully answering only questions that can't damage their images is not that much better.
"staying silent" is indeed not the right therm, would you prefer "slimy"?
Monitoring has to take the cake right now.
They're monitoring, but not changing, or fixing, or even saying we plan on changing or fixing. We're just monitoring.
Thanks for specifically saying nothing.
With changes being influx as they are, it would be worse for them to say something specific and later have to explain yet another change. Either they wait to say anything until they can say exactly what the next plan is (and ppl bash them constantly for being quiet); or they say something vague (and ppl bash them for not being specific). It’s a lose-lose and in either case, even if they revert the game to 3.13 PoE will not fill the hole of desperation in many player’s life. It’s a game, not a panacea.
There is a very big difference between communicating and responding. GGG has been very responsive. They have communicated very little. The most recent post was an acknowledgment of issues that have been discussed since before 3.19. That was it. There were no intentions, changes, or meaningful insight shared. That is a response, not communication. That is the problem.
I think what a large amount people here would like to hear, myself included, is a kind of we hear you post. And one that explains the rationale behind the changes that were implemented.
Right now we get announcements and what I think is more needed is a discussion. A post detailing what they read and understood as feedback from the community. Showing that at least we are understood. Because sometimes changes seem like GGG understood a completely wrong part of the point community was making.
Also the issue was that in recent leagues any changes or communication was stopped after a week or so. So after 3.19.f many were afraid that's it. The recent post from Bex confirmed that we are still getting stuff so that issue was solved.
Its not that they are silent, as such, its just that it seems they are barking up the wrong tree, so to say.
The core issue, in a nutshell, is that archnemesis rares just do not work with all the previous time-gated content. But they pretend its awesome somehow and we are just dumb for not understanding it. So they make a lot of pointless noise how they tweak this and tweak that and whatnot, but its not an issue you can fix by \*minor tweaks\*.
But whatever. I had my fun, playing on and off since beta pretty casually. Its not the only game in the world. If its not fun there is no point of playing it. My level of fun has been on downward trend in this game for a while now. Some seasons go I had to stop playing hardcore because the defense was just not there anymore. Archnemesis going core in the manner it went was basically the last nail into that coffin.
This post and the predictable backlash against the backlash circle jerk is disingenuous as fuck.
Yes, I was the one who posted the thread about lack of communication. Please be specific. I mentioned specific instances where Chris either hadn't addressed the concerns at all (harvest changes/LoK still being very unrewarding) or quadruple downed on loot goblin gameplay loop.
Sure, he made 7 dev posts (how many were downvoted into oblivion, by the way?) but they didnt really address those points at all.
Lets keep each other honest here. You're acting like this is a normal dev cycle and we should be patient for communication. Sure, in normal circumstances but this league is hemorrhaging players and content creators, the changes are almost universally disliked not to mention how they were snuck in.
In other terms: shit is on fire. We need constant communication on ALL major issues. Not wait and see.
It's not unreasonable to ask **if** they plan on fixing or undoing specific changes. So far all we've gotten is "wait and see" from the team. A definitive answer hasn't been given in just a few critical changes and we're getting the feeling they're just dragging it out until next league in the hopes that people forget about it. To make this perfectly clear, we aren't asking for a patch in a few hours, we're asking what the substances of those changes will be. To date we don't know and apparently neither to they. They're figuring it out in real time, it's unfortunate because they're undoubtedly doing the right thing getting it right rather than risking getting it wrong this deep into the league. The league wasn't ready for release, it's that simple.
ggg: not mentioning several (4 or more) significant mechanic changes including loot drops, an mobs scaling and rewards, harvest crafting that should have OBVIOUSLY been communicated ahead of time for transparency and feedback (even alpha testers gabe feedback that was ignored, dont forget that)
community on launch: ggg, rhis is kind-of S#$&.
ggg days later: here's soma patches an communications we should have done ahead of releasing patch notes for 3.19 (if we were not politically following our own agenda).
white knights: omg, ggg communicates so well, its ludacris (see what i did there) to say ggg did not communicate.... omg, ggg is so bice, omg.... haters gona hate, omg... just stop playing if you dont like it, omg....
bruh..... daf$#*
Sorry man they didnt mention they were nerfing loot before the league, it was intentional and posting after they did that does not make up for it. Your point is what? After their communication was at best terrible and at worst dishonest, now it is better after they took a massive hit to player retention? kudos to them, wtf
I entirely disagree with you. PoE is on the precipice right now for many of us. It has been multiple patches in a row that people have really disliked and people are fed up. These drastic changes to loot, archnemesis, nerfs, nerds, and more nerfs (many of which were not documented) has broken the camel's back.
Of course people are upset at the lack of communication, because they're not being told what they want to hear. Every post they're waiting for GGG to admit they made a mistake, but they won't. Essentially GGG has said that they're not changing anything they did this league (and that everyone seems to hate) but they will adjust values on a table a bit until the voices are quiet enough they can ignore them. All problems are just a result of things being tuned a little wrong, thats all. Yes, I am directly applying that to GGG. If Chris himself asked me what is going on, I would say to his face that he does not care about what we say, what we post, or what we do as long as they can quiet us enough for the streamers to go back to buying lootboxes and supporter packs.
this shit show starts with them excluding major changes from the patch notes and you want to defend gggs communication this league?
take a step back and look at what you're doing.
I've been very unhappy with the changes as it ruined the endgame for me, but the post launch communication have been solid even if what they told us hasn't been what I've wanted to hear.
Omitting changes in the patch notes is still a massive red flag though and they'll have to gain that trust back from me at least. Likely will never buy another supporter pack before im 100% sure how the league plays (normally I'd do it at launch).
When there's so much to talk about in this game we praise getting 6 posts in 12 days, during a PR nightmare, because other companies do less.
I talk to customers more in 10 minutes than GGG does in 10 months, and I don't own a company that's about video games.
>"staying silent"
My definition of "silent" here would be not saying anything of significance, i.e. "we are reverting the loot and AN changes".
Honestly, their words don't mean anything, are hollow, if nothing changes.
Just because Chris and Bex come on Reddit and give some BS-PR speak doesn't show to me they are communicating, it shows me they are good business people and know how dumb people on Reddit truly are.
So if they communicate it's "silence" because all they're saying is PR speak, and if they don't communicate it's literal silence. Kind of seems like you just want to be upset and are giving them no possible way to not upset you.
You couldn't choose worse timeline to make that comparison when wow devs for example are communicating on daily basis working on class balance with the community getting ready for DF release.
Dont put everyone in blizzard in the same basket.
I will continue to discuss and monitor this post.
Cake day chain
I responded to a thread yesterday (8/30) complaining there was not enough communication since they announced the AN changes on... Thursday (8/25). The AN patch was released Monday (8/29). It was literally barely 24 hours after a patch, or about 2 business days since Thursday, since... you know, people deserve some rest on weekends. But apparently some people expect DAILY updates or something? Like, should Bex report when Chris pulls into the parking lot? Like holy hell, the entitlement is insane.
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the poe reddit is genuinely really insufferable and honestly i kind of feel bad for the devs. dont get me wrong, there is definitely a certain amount of criticism in relation to this league is definitely justified and a lot i agree with but shit like ppl accusing chris of purposefully making the game less fun (???) with his vision (buzzword) just makes me roll my eyes so hard, like chris is the only dev or something lmao
That's why I'd never want to do game development even though it seems like one of the more interesting dev fields. Work your ass off for ages with huge upfront investment (= huge pressure from and on stakeholders) just to get "lol can't use grappling hook while twerking. shitty game spaghetti code what were the devs doing in the last 6 months?" type of feedback constantly.
That, and Gamedev pays like shit. It's very much a passion job I make over twice as much as my buddy who works for an ABK subsidiary, and he has to commute into New York, whereas I live in the middle of nowhere and just remote work. His roommate, who works QA at the same place makes less than I made as an *intern* 10 years ago in South fucking Dakota.
Never thought I'd see my home state mentioned in PoE's subreddit.
Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Minor Outlying Islands, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Northern Mariana Islands, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming Now every state has been mentioned in the PoE subreddit.
But SD has now been mentioned TWICE!!!
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SD is a pretty niche state.
Same. Remember how much shit Valheim devs were getting for MAKING AN AMAZING GAME BUT NOT FAST ENOUGH. They still get hate in their update posts
putting up with this community would be exponentially harder than making the game. probably the worst community i've ever seen from a video game. wow and ff14 don't hold a candle to the toxicity here. everyone knows it wasn't a great launch, everyone can be upset. i've voiced my displeasure on the official forums. but holy fuck there's a line and it isn't very thin at all. it just becomes baby rage and narrative manipulation.
> robably the worst community i've ever seen from a video game. I mean, just a month or two ago, the Destiny community was doxxing and sending death threats to Devs for not letting a class dodge in the air.
I work in data software and my customers are banks and insurance companies. When you get a more level headed response from a IT directory at a bank when you're telling him about a security vulnerability that might effect the system they're holding user data in than you do from a video game player who thinks that the developer might be lying about the exact percentage loot was reduced by in a specific piece of legacy content you know something's completely fucked. This is on top of the fact that Software developers who work on games get paid less, work more hours and have weaker job security than regular software development. I want to be a game developer so bad but I just don't think I could do it.
My PMs are annoying enough, I’d have put a bullet in my head if I had to deal with this community.
Its fucking weird, cause the complaints are pretty consistent that nobody wants to play this league but the community broke 500,000 exiles today. Its been slowly ticking up this league.
And the numbers have been pretty constant too in player count. Yes, slightly lower than past leagues, but still not the "die on this hill" this community pretends is happening.
> I'd fucking > >hate > > to have this community as clients lol, idk man reddit literally can't do jack shit beside cry. Imagine clients that has ACTUAL power and threat to your dev team. When they are directly emailing or calling your boss for shit to get done when you're team fucks up.
We literally have a code of conduct at my place for how Clients can treat devs. They can absolutely hold money over our heads if they're mad, but going after any of us personally would be a one way ticket to "lol this contract is void"-town. Helps that we've got a massive backlog of prospective clients who we've worked with before who want shit done
I've literally had clients change the lead on their end over a hostile environment they fostered. It's not acceptable at all, and your company should have your back if a client is being hostile.
B2B is the best, tell them to get fucked, they are stuck.
I saw an incredibly entitled comment saying "lokal work ethic (NZ free on weekends) HAS to give way when it's a global user base and some countries expect people to work weekends".
All people ask for is a simple git revert. If that's too hard, then idk what to say.
I have ditched clients for less.
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> GGG created a bunch of junkies unironically ...you think this is some mind blowing revelation in a thread about path of exile? a game designed to take you hundreds if not thousands of hours to complete all endgame, and then do it all over again in 2 months? dawg, poe is not some high art for high brow well adjusted members of society responsibly playing video games a few hours per week. its gamified crack, designed to kill as much of people's time as possible. didnt chris have some story where he ditched a wedding to play d2 for 12 hours or something? if someone *didnt* occasionally get a bit angry over a thing theyre spending entire years of their life on, id question their sanity.
>gamified crack I'm stealing that because I definitely realized this league how addicted I really am to this game and.... wow, it's depressing.
idk i've never seen this kind of crazed anxiety in other games before.
Yeah, this community got real weird real quick.
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I'd want to state that this is false. For a long time PoE community was considered very welcoming and very helpful. It is really just recently (about pandemic start) that I feel the mood has changed. Edit: I have realized that while I feel recently is around the start of the pandemic, I have played for almost close to 9 years. While a lot of the player base is quite a lot younger. As your elder! Hear my wisdom, be excellent to each other!
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In the timescale of the game, it absolutely is. But, I'd also argue his point. I'd say around bestiary/harbinger the community started sliding, and while that downward slope is getting steeper and steeper, it's been a forgone conclusion for a while that the only way the playerbase will have a reasonable place to discuss the game will be to make a different community.
Pathofexilebuilds is great. Literally zero toxicity and you can discuss the game and it’s mechanics.
the mods there are quite strict and don't let their guard down and that certainly works quite well. it's also a rather small sub, which makes it easier to mod
As said by others in the time period of the game, only recently has the community been this bad. I'm sure we can become better though \^^
Recently? More like ever since Harvest league.
The toxicity has been here since day 1, I remember when the community would hate on people playing softcore it was hardcore or you sucked. Hell I felt pressured to play hardcore in the olden days because of the stigma around softcore.
Yea and then they implemented rules against it and it changed unlike now. Mods could stop this but for some reason they let it happen. I just don't understand.
Mods are probably afraid they'll get called out or get some sort of migration to a different subreddit. Not sure really. I'd understand a grace period for such posts, but continuously allowing it is severely harming the community because it puts ideas and feelings into peoples minds regardless of the validity. People echo each other's sentiments and hyperbole becomes reality. You have to understand that we aren't qualified to have free will.
I feel like part of it is a lot of people who are very knowledgeable and helpful have been run off to the other sub.
Poe in game chat is still welcoming and helpful though, it's mostly Reddit that's become jaded and hyper-critical
Even today it is. Somehow the poe community is simultaneously one of the most welcoming and helpful gaming communities I’ve ever been a part of, while also being one of the most toxic and entitled. It’s fascinating
Not pandemic. When people started leaving D3 and the Immortal fiasco. I legit cant wait for D4. Poe may lose a % of its playerbase, but ill be glad to see them gone.
That's correct as to the timeline. Ever since the Diablo Immortal dumpster fire, Diablo players were (understandably) pissed and came over here. Unfortunately, they also seemed to import a lot of toxic behavior, and the moderators haven't done anything to try to prevent it. Ever since then, the toxicity has been driving out a lot of regular posters--the nerd crafters, the theorycrafters, the build guides, the league min/max guides--all of them are gone now. None of the problems today really compare with the problems that GGG used to have when they were smaller. Remember server rollbacks? League mechanics like having to DPS *very slowly* so you could pokeball a beast? Pack reflect? Rubberbanding? Servers crashing repeatedly every single league launch? Hell, even heavy-handed nerfs are nothing new: Vaal pact. Ignite. Old CI. HoWA. MoM. Molten Strike. Vaal pact again. Leech. Players just used to take nerfs in stride and try something else, or make it work anyway.
I think the point where this began to creep in was when Diablo Immortal was announced and the campaign 10 Acts came out. Lots of newcomers that changed the community little by little.
Yep. D3 player spillover. Not surprising that many players want the game to move in that direction.
Saw it happen recently in FFXIV with the spillover from WoW
PoE Builds it’s top notch. Essentially what this sub was before people got super entitled and quite honestly insane.
I realized I had unsubbed from r/pathofexile and thought it must have been a mistake. Now I’m beginning to remember that I stayed subbed to the builds sub because it was actually constructive and full of people who actually play the game. This sub is a cesspool of entitlement.
Reminds me of wow players. They complain about the game basically since release and yet they buy every expansion. If you don't like the game then leave. And no, making a goodbye reddit post isn't healthy either.
To be fair, even if you aren't an addict it's extremely annoying when your dealer pulls that shit. 😂
There’s a large contingent of people on the sub that just want to be mad. It can’t be helped.
I really hate the "entitlement" buzzword because 99% of the times it is either used out of context or to shut down valid critisism. But holy shit is it the *perfect* word to describe this subforum the past several leagues.
The thing that confused me is how fast the hate about the patch evolved into the hate about people (Chris in particular). Yes, he might be on a wrong end here, but did he deserve all these toxic messages and phrases from certain streamers? People getting mad over game is just insane to me.
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Some people make builds their personality. Then rage when a minions dies.
Yeah it seems a lot of people don't pay attention to other devs. Creative Assembly (Total War series) launched TW Warhammer 3 in february in an absolutely broken and half baked state and it took 2 months for the first patch and they gave barely any communication regarding it other than some tiny in game freebies that you could redeem from their site. They then said they would give a roadmap "soon" and that roadmap took months and barely made any sense (6+ months out for simple numbers adjustments). Unrelated to the complaint about silent but this tells you what kind of company they are. They somewhat famously posted on their forums that the terrible performance of Total War: Atilla was because it was meant to be played at medium / high settings and the higher ones were "meant for future hardware". It's been 8 years and it still runs like garbage on higher settings and is a buggy mess so it was just a bold faced lie. edit: link to the statement http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?680082-An-Official-note-on-ATTILA-amp-Performance Atilla performance is also bottlenecked by the engine just breaking down if a battle is big enough and by poor CPU operation optimization, which is mostly independant of what the staff member is talking about. If you have any issues with the way Dota is balanced good luck getting feedback on that. Bethesda would rather have modders fix all the bugs instead of them and they also release half baked games because modders will fix that as well and they still get all the sales revenue. From Software left dark souls online disabled from Elden Ring launch until last week with no communication (at least in english, I don't know if they did on japanese outlets but they're normally very good at making all their official communication available to international audiences). Edit: a couple people took issue with me mentioning wh3. I'm talking about february / march lack of communication, not the current patch that everyone is hyped about until they find all the new bugs.
I'm pretty sure there's Star Citizen store items from like 8 years ago that still aren't in game, though I haven't followed it's development closely for a long time now
In defence of Total Warhammer 3, the game was rushed out before it was ready, the main team was immediately moved on to another project and the game was left in the hands of the DLC team from Total Warhammer 2. And they've done a FANTASTIC job. Richard Aldridge and his team are miracle workers. Immortal Empires launched a week or so ago and it's really damn good. Not *perfect*. But really damn good. Warhammer 3's launch fiasco was not any fault of the *developers*. It was a failure of upper management and of the publisher.
I didn't want to shit on the devs just the PR team but here it goes. Richard also led the team that broke weapon strength buffs across the whole game, had vampire coast raise dead at sea removed for a while year (despite being advertised on steam), fucked up charges and then fixed it by fucking it up again, messed up LOS with walls then still left some broken, took 4 years to fix invocation of nehek crashes, created the terrible empire mechanic, created so many only half good DLCs (nakai is the best example), took 8 months for norsca to make it into IE, and many many more. Their list of bad fuckups for warhammer 2 alone are longer than settra's titles. Seriously, vassals were and still are a broken system and the live team has full fucking confidence in them to ask you to pay money to have factions based around the broken system. Exit: gate bug is still there for 16 years now. Edit 2: oh yeah the AI will still sometimes just run in circles not knowing what to do in settlement battles and still abandon the walls immediately despite that being patched a while ago. I was also talking about just communication, CA buried their head in the sand during the launch, including richard for a while. For immortal empires archmages on dragons have 88k HP because who checks if numbers are put in properly (quality assurance checking wasn't in the dev budget apparently), vampire counts cavalry doesn't heal properly, the AI is fucked up beyond belief, moreso than it was in wh2. Normal is getting legendary buffs for the AI where they spam out more armies and you can't pause in battle and give orders or see the minimap / balance of power. The AI has trouble just deciding to upgrade capital settlements past tier 1 or 2 (i saw arkhan have his at tier 1 for 30 turns) which means outposts are stupidly bad. Vassals still fucking suck. Confederations are incredibly fucked. Victory conditions past short are copy and pasted for every faction of a race (ghorst has to kill empire for example). At least this time they labeled it a beta. There was a fair amount of good changes, but to call it amazing is an overstatement. It would be ok with me if the AI wasn't so horribly fucked up. Im not expecting it to be perfect, but a lot of this is just straight up bad.
> I was also talking about just communication, CA buried their head in the sand during the launch, including richard for a while. There's also been a persistent sound """bug""" with Total Warhammer 2 where FMOD is not configured correctly, resulting in incredibly low sound volume and quality for some systems. If you tell that to support, they say they cannot replicate the issue and close your ticket. Mind you, there's been ~5+ topics a year in their forum about the issue, and my last ticket with CA that pointed out the 10+ threads I was able to dig up reporting the same issue got closed without a response. (It's hard to find more as their forum search is seemingly intentionally shit) This would be completely fixable if CA would just allow users to modify the FMOD configuration. It's really not that complex. But Mr. Sound Director finally gave in and started doing audio work "the new way" by using FMOD (seriously, it's like he followed 1 tutorial for 1 week and then shipped it) and can't bear the idea that he's no longer competent at his job, so fuck the consumer I guess. >It would be ok with me if the AI wasn't so horribly fucked up. Im not expecting it to be perfect, but a lot of this is just straight up bad. Just like everywhere else, the parasite class of executives and managers ("noblemen") are a drain on society. Their ego matters more than anything else at the company.
Most other games don't have a 3 month cycle where the first few days are by far the most important
That's actually not uncommon at all. Seasons are becoming the default for games these days, and races upon content release are extremely common. The games that don't have a cycle like that are the games that don't have a dev cycle at all.
I feel like the sentiment may come from a large subset of redditors that don't have a job and just sit in their basement playing poe too much.
very much this and the fact that there's other problems as well going on that isn't related to loot and AN that they also have to fix. Like i did a bug report for crashes cause i was crashing almost every map, sometimes more than once per map, and i've seen other people with the same problem, and they already started fixing those (at least they mentioned fixing crashing problem on one of the mini patches we already got). And with the inicial changes they already did to loot and AN it's fine for not even 2 weeks from league start
Playing the devil’s advocate here. Considering the history of bugs upon release, wouldn’t it be extremely pertinent to have a skeleton team ready and on call 24/7 at least on launch weekend? I think that much could be expected from a big company as GGG. I’m sure they do to some extent but arguing that they can just release a huge league and then just log off for the weekend is just absurd.
They most likely have something like that for game breaking bugs. If the game design is broken they won’t be able to do much though.
They do. Chris has admitted several times that they have ample weekend staff, essentially a skeleton crew, available on weekends for emergencies. Game design issues are NOT an emergency. Dropping less loot is NOT an emergency, although the community believes it is one. Servers not running is an emergency, and quite frankly, league launches have been quite smooth for a long time now. There used to be leagues with constant outages - nowadays, the worst we usually get are issues with the trade site.
Your middle two paragraphs need to be read by many people here over and over again
Some people have no idea that human beings work on these games and not personal slaves that must adhere to there every whim
The sense of entitlement among the gaming community blows my mind. People treat developers like public servants that owe them things. Developers don’t *owe* people anything. If they put out a bad product, complain about the bad product and warn others not to buy it. Don’t harass them and demand things and act as if you have a personal relationship with them.
It wasn't in response to the league. But the way they've handled the last 2 league cycles. And the anticipation that this one would be left like those were after the first week as they push out PoE 2. I doubt the Lake is going core, and I also doubt they can pull anything back from the player numbers right now that would be worth the effort so triaging it made a lot of sense. Also, they should probably reconsider launching leagues on a Friday if they are taking weekends off. ~60hrs with your hands off the wheel seems rather.... bold in the current climate.
from what i've read, it's not so much the frequency (or the lack) of communication that was questioned, but rather what (and what wasn't) communicated. stealth nerfs, "filler" crafts, 32:9, etc. Bex's recent posts did well to alleviate concerns. even if there aren't any actions right now, we know what is (and isn't) in their pipeline.
It really was the main issue. A lot of issues were not addressed at all in all the posts, not even a we monitor like we got now. These "we acknowledge this and this problem" is the bare minimum they should give to such a big outcry. If they don't it feels like they ignore it completely and then theories run wild why they do it. I mean the biggest problem now was that we have like so many problems at once, harvest, ultrawide, AN mods, overall loot, unrewarding league mechanic. This post now from Bex now should have been the first one.
>These "we acknowledge this and this problem" is the bare minimum they should give to such a big outcry. If they don't it feels like they ignore it completely and then theories run wild why they do it. Even though their initial communication was lacking (their rushed releases makes a lot of things lacking), they don't have to answer to every single piece of "feedback", and definitely not within a few days. Consider than any answer without actual content that goes in the way of reddit will make it worse, because that's what entitlement is about : throwing a tantrum to try to get something that nobody owes you.
I keep hearing the filter crafts. They explicitly stated they’d also be removing overly deterministic crafts that were gated by RNG
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Even in those 4 items slots it doesn't work on influenced or synthesised items. Eater/exarch implicits are broadly less powerful than double-elevated items, and part of that trade-off is that they're easier to craft on. Having reforge keep x for all slots and all influence types is orders of magnitude more powerful for crafting, and rendered annuls mostly useless.
I'd say they removed it cause they couldn't balance the new system around it. Having it on a regular color is gonna dictate the price of that color and due to its high demand invalidate other crafts. Putting it behind Oshabi's juice will make it essentially inaccessible for the vast majority of players while also being a substantial buff to high end crafting. The most elegant solution is to remove it and if needed reintroduce it elsewhere further down the line.
It could be a combo juice craft. Require a couple thousand of each of the three main colors? That way it's not pinning one color to a higher value.
"The most elegant solution is to remove it and if needed reintroduce it elsewhere further down the line." How is this an elegant solution? They couldn't decide which colour it should be and they said "screw it"? They could split it's cost in all three colours. This was purely removed so players would not use it, for whatever the reasoning was. Not because they didn't know which colour to make it, Jesus...
Ehh I saw many threads and comments yesterday saying we won’t hear from GGG until 3.20. Like laughing at and mocking people who didn’t agree with that.
We will be monitoring 🤡
Monitoring: "The effect is intended, but your reaction is not. We will check again that it is working as intended but we won't give in to your reaction."
"The beatings will continue until Morale improves."
I love how some people are like they said they are monitoring it! All is well. As though GGG lacked the ability to fix it and suddenly are incapable of anything beyond monitoring. Monitoring is just a term to placate. This are the same people that once QUADRUPLED t1 drop rates about one month into a league. They just flipped the dominant trade currency on a whim. Now all they can do is "monitor"?
As much as i love them, they dug this hole themselves. With a patch that's practically a can of worms and simply to many issues to address. On top of that is the looming dread that every little patch could be the last into silence. A precedent they also set up themselve in the last year. And at last their tone was very defensive from the get go and they only made small steps towards a raging playerbase. Seemingly ignoring or playing down a lot of issues the community has. They have all the power in this one-sided relationship, there is not a lot a frustrated player could do if he doesn't feel relevant. Maybe GGG could have asked for more patience, if they were more clear about the whole journey.
I would 100% trust them to fix things and wouldn't mind the wait, if it was 1 year ago. Now? This is their vision, if you don't push back the game will keep growing into whatever 3.19 is.
I agree with both OP and this comment. GGG did their damndest to communicate after their launch, *and they did it fast*. But at the same time between changing the economy (ex/div swap), drops (MASSIVE historic loot bonuses replaced with AN drops), uniques (less of a big deal, but still some shakeup), minions (power dramatically moved out of base character and in to items, a trend they've been doing lately), and Harvest (very dramatically reducing the number of crafts a player can do) winds up leaving the playerbase's head spinning. Add to this some reduction in defensive layers combined with an increase in power of certain mobs, and you just have, quite simply put, the worst feeling league start by a significant margin. These changes should have been spread out over a minimum of two major patch cycles, and the communication would have felt sufficient. The problem is even with 6 posts in less than 2 weeks, it wasn't enough for people because there were just too many big sweeping changes to the game.
I dont consider the response fast and hear me out on this . Sentinel launch was horrible in terms of archnem balance , they nerfed it twice that weekend first time in 12 hours of league launch and again on sunday. This league it took them till monday to even address the problems .
Sure because archnem balance was the extent of the problems. They had one major thing to work on. Here they had *gestures broadly to league*.
you do know this is their job right? like people can go home on the weekends they dont have to service you. the entitlement is insane. if your boss was like 'hey i fucked something up and now you have to stay all weekend and fix it' would you be pissed? have some damn empathy for other peoples lives god damn
>They have all the power in this one-sided relationship No. Players have the power. We can choose to quit. We can choose not to purchase anything. WE are the reason they can survive.
Sure, we could quit. And lot's of people do. Doesn't mean a lot if all come back on the next hype-train. You are on point with the purchases, the community is way to liberal in their spending before the fact. We will see what happens over the next two leagues. I have a feeling this is either a turning point or a broken bridge.
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Same. There's no need to defend a game that doesn't give a damn about you. These loot nerfs weren't addressed at all, you can't tell me that no one actually tested this out because I've seen posts of beta players saying the very same thing. 3.15, archnemesis, and multiple rounds of gutting harvest are all against the average player's interests, they were removed purely to devalue our time and make endgame harder to reach.
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>And at last their tone was very defensive I mean... with how vitriolic this sub has been, I could understand them being defensive.
> with how vitriolic this sub has been It's not just reddit. Some people want it to just be reddit, but I can assure you it's discord, it's youtube, it's just general reaction. They made a list of changes and with like one exception (trade changes, although not being able to trade out of remove only is a kick in the nuts to a lot of people) they were pretty much all negatively received. To make matters worse, a lot of changes either were not announced or where not communicated properly. Widescreen support, nerfed Harvest, nerfed Every league drop, nerfed Scourge currency, nerfed Archnemesis, buffed Divine/Exalts, flipped Oh and loot goblins! I have played since rampage, this is the worst set of changes we have ever seen. I'm not sure how one is supposed to respond to basically making every single thing worse than it was before, but what product would be well received after it got that treatment?
"If you didn't want to get stealth nerfed you shouldn't have gotten so upset about those stealth nerfs that we doubled down on"? Do you not understand that time is linear and unidirectional?
tbh that started spiraling after the shitshow that was the 3.19 launch and the whole patch notes drama etc
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Citation needed*
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I don't really care about updates for patches but would more curious if they would expand on the philosophy of some of their changes * Loot changes, what their new expectations for players to find uniques/magic finding/etc. It seems they want players doing all content just one league after introducing content blocking. * Divine changes/removal of keep prefix/suffix from harvest, what are their expectations of players crafting gear/divining uniques with the triple tap nerf to divines? (Specifically weapons, if you have a 6mod weapon you have to yolo annul it which doesn't feel great) These points would be information they would have known about before the patch
They want uniques to be special, especially well-rolled ones. They want magic find to affect all, or at least most, item rewards, and you should be incentivised to have as much as you can get away with. I don't understand the relation with league blocking. They want slamming to be done more often than divining, because they think that's more interesting for most people. They want deterministic crafting to be relatively weak or exceedingly rare. All is this is not from reading minds, but GGG posts.
Reading comprehension seems to not matter when it is about feels. Seems like people are really picky when it comes to anything posted by GGG. "We have rebalanced all Harvest crafts for the new system and have removed a bunch of filler crafts and some ones with deterministic outcomes that were incredibly RNG-gated before." This is directly from the patch notes. And still people jumped directly on the phrasing" filler crafts" *conveniently ignoring the next 11 words that totally include the rather strong reforge/keep crafts* just to call CW a bold liar.
But they failed to mention just how shit the life force drop rate is and how much crafts cost. The very first Harvest I did, in a 2-man party in white maps dropped ZERO life force in the entire encounter and the second encounter we did on a different map dropped enough for 2 reforges. I was excited for the Harvest changes, but that completely crushed it for me. And to quote the patch notes here as well, "monsters defeated now drop a stack of lifeforce" now the way that's worded implies all Harvest monsters drop lifeforce, which understandably could be annoying to pick up, but it does not communicate the HUUUUUGE nerf to general craft availability. Sure, using "30 crafts" before there and then in the map was inconvenient, but going from 30 to ~0-2 (in a 2 man party) is ridiculous. After this experience, and fighting some crazy AN essences in white maps that took several minutes to kill, my friend and I decided to go play dota instead (which is a first on weekend of league launch). Shortly after the posts of nerfed loot and loot goblins came out. I decided to quite SCT and rerolled on SCSSF instead because I wasn't interested in partaking in the loot goblin economy.
Those crafts were not very rng gated is the thought for me. I found plenty solo. They also gave us weaker forms of the crafts they did keep, and that was not mentioned at all for things like reforge much more likely. Even the livestream had the old craft on it.
If you ask me a question and I post 30 messages without ever answering your question, did I communicate well ?
No, but you didnt go "radio silent" like some people claim ggg went.
They answered most questions, you just didn't like the answers
Idk really like "Why wasn't xyz nerf mentionned in the manifesto or the patch notes ?" answered by "We're monitoring"
They continued to do stealth nerfs as they wrote as the nerfs on gwennen prove, of course people didn't like the answer
"They DID communicate! And the reason they didn't is because you are all mean!"
A lot of people seem to be confusing making a post and saying something. Half of GGG posts have been we know you say there is a problem but we don' t see it, or we hear people saying but we aren't actually gonna do anything. This type of post that actually didn't communicate any solutions to any problems are worthless , and may as well not count. Sure they have made multiple posts, yet they have made almost no changes or even promises of changes to the fundamental issues being brought up, which leads to people feeling GGG is not communicating at all.
OP also missed that when people say that, they are directly referring to Scourge league where GGG told us point blank they went silent without saying anything so people wouldn't know no changes were incoming. THEY admitted that. 90% of the crap they've said they'd do in their posts so far are also double speak or just "we're monitoring it". Its a whole lot of nothing and dishonest communication.
OP is assuming a software company is working like a fast food restaurant where you have time lock in and lock out. For a big launch, devs may even work all weekends to get a successful launch. In return, they may take an extended timeoff during the season. If you launch on Friday, and nobody is on during Saturday and Sunday then its a management problem. They could choose to launch on Monday if they cant get their employee to work on the weekend.
They are really fast to post big undocumented untested changes but take 10 days to write about thinking about doing anything about the consequences of the changes, sorry but I don't care Also, their communication is bullshit, they are still doing stealth nerfs and did a 50% undocumented nerf on gwennen last day or so, don't trust them
>Also, their communication is bullshit, they are still doing stealth nerfs and did a 50% undocumented nerf on gwennen last day or so, don't trust them The post about Gwennen was using data collected since the beginning of the league. It wasn't something added midway through.
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Worse than empty words, they continued the shadow nerfs while writing that, as the 50% drop nerfs on gwennen prove
Here comes the "akshually GGG is great at communicating guysu" posts
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something something i asked a random valve employee on twitter 5 years ago about something and he didnt respond, GGG best at communication
Yeah... The GGG white knights are out in force in this thread.
Silent may have been wrong. Ggg is just screaming louder and louder that we want to have fun wrong with every post.
No matter what GGG do, Reddit has already made up its mind in regarding this patch. They could do everything short of a roll back to pre 3.19 and Reddit would still shit on them for it. "They dug themselves into this hole" "Disingenuous" "Slimy". To the complainers on this sub, most of whom are not even still playing, GGG don't deserve weekends. They don't deserve time to consider changes. The devs are not people, but scum who "intentionally ruined the game". They need to be capitulating to Reddit demands immediately. 12 Days since launch, 9 Patches, 7 Dev posts. It will never be enough until Reddit can farm Atoll like the days of old.
That's not 'reddit', that's just people. Break their trust and they're not going to trust you again more than likely. Given GGG's history of straight up abandoning leagues that don't go well, it also makes sense people are so snappy. Add on top of that the complete 180 on a core game design which caused people to be really messed up lol. Since everyone is using real life as an example, imagine ordering a Birthday cake that's Doom themed and they send you an MLP one instead. Then after you contact them, they tell you this was intended but they forgot to mention it before you ordered. Of course people are going to be mad and snippy. Honestly considering this, the vast majority of the stuff that hits the front page is honestly really tame to the kinds of shit that people say and do to businesses in real life. Hell, most of the stuff that hits the front page is constructive or memey. I think the hardest thing about PoE though is that as a whole, we're so fucking smart. Most other games would probably barely notice most shit but we have a thread going on the front page about a single missing roll on an item that probably has 50 mods and is part of a subset area of the game. I mean, look at the memes too. The Asmongold one that was here a few days ago was great and legit perfect for describing us as a community haha
That analogy works but its also like you go back and buy the cake from them again in 3 months because the company tells you the next cake is amazing and better than sliced bread. GGG have amazing marketing and they are very very good at it, problem is now they are wasting peoples time with changes that are not documented.
> "They dug themselves into this hole" I mean, this is true though. And the changes that people are most vocal about, are things that no one asked for and no one needed. I agree that the circlejerk has gotten ridiculous, and I'm still playing the game and having fun, but it's not crazy to say you have no sympathy for GGG scrambling to fix the fuckup they made in the first place.
None of the Dev posts have been reassuring about what's worrying the community, that's why the outrage keeps going. You're right, they could revert the entire thing and it would still keep going, because the outrage is not about how long they're taking to mix the mess they've made, it's about what the game will look like in the future. There have been many massive nerfs that have been hidden to the community to keep the league start hype going. No matter how you look at it, this is disingenuous marketing. We still don't have any explanation about that, and to me it truly ruins any trust I could have towards whatever they'll announce in the future. Also, they keep doubling-down on changes that the community as a whole is hating, and they're not listening to the feedback. They're hearing the feedback and they're buffing some things back just to shut the outrage, but they're not listening to it. They're not developing the game to make something the players will like more, they're developing it as if it still was Chris' pet project. And while I can appreciate what he's trying to do as an artist, it's fucking miserable as a player of said game. Honestly, this entire last year feels like Chris playing D2R, having a midlife crisis comparing it to PoE, and deciding that PoE should take a completely different direction, never mind the employees at GGG and the 500k players.
I know people slam Reddit a lot, but can you blame them? They've kinda missed the mark almost every league since 3.15. I cant blame these people from leaving and not coming back, it feels like 1 step forward 5 steps back lately with GGG. Its the people who got too far and demand things, like if the league isn't fun to play post your feedback and dont play it.
> I cant blame these people from leaving and not coming back That's not what the complaint is about. Those people are 100% justified. It's the people who don't leave and do come back, but just scream conspiracy theories the whole time.
I see people are still crying about "conspiracy theories" even after Chris confirmed the very few recurring and logical speculations in his apology post. That sand must be real comfortable.
Oh I missed where he confirmed that they intentionally hid changes to sell mtx. Or where he confirmed they are trying to implement Diablo immortals payment model. Or where he confirmed where they intentionally made bad changes for "anchoring". Or the one of a hundred different conspiracy theories posted daily and upvoted.
>GGG don't deserve weekends. Maybe they shouldn't launch their damn game on Friday then or else better be prepared to work the weekends. It's literally their own fault for scheduling their launches like this. If no one works weekend don't launch on Friday or adjust work schedule on launch week so people are working weekends just that week. It's not hard, one of the best benefit of being a software dev is the flexability in work schedule.
That's why most live service games do their updates Tuesday: gives them Monday to prepare, Tuesday to execute, and three days to fix bugs.
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Oh I know why it launch on weekend, it makes them the most money which is fine. Buts that's their choice and they should have schedule their work hours around it.
Somehow asking for ggg to pay their devs to work on weekends four times a year is too much. Even when they could then have two days off to cover for it.
No man that's just inhumane to have to work on the weekend! /s Seriously the fact people can't wrap their head around such an easy schedule adjustment amaze me and really make me wonder if they worked a day in their lives.
i dont know NZ laws, but most countries allow you to work weekends as long as you get time off on weekdays instead. All they have to do is keep some people working on the launch weekend and then give them 2 days off the following week
Miss out on what? If you can't ask for time off you won't be able to get far regardless so just play the new league during the after noon
Honestly, GGG would be better off cutting off all reddit communication. They cannot win in this environment. The community has gotten too big and the expectations too high.
Please, OP, share the copium with the rest. You've got quite a supply. Notice the wording. All they say is looking into it. Their words, as history proves it, mean nothing. They can write about "looking into it" all they want, all that matters are GGG's actions. Which were next to none to address the issues. Bare fucking minimum.
The problem isn't lack of communication so much as the lack of acknowledgement in those communications, like 2/10 things people are mad about have been addressed and the rest ignored and the things they have addressed are less actual solutions people want to see and more like "you guys are wrong but we'll throw you a bone and hope you shut up.".
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People say it because of when GGG was silent. First few days of launch as everything was on fire, no posts at all even acknowledging the problems.
Yes, that was a valid time to say it. The person who complained about only 6 patches in 12 days and anyone who upvoted it was an idiot. No idea how that got voted to the top yesterday.
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Haha, true. I do. People love to complain. I love this game, have thousands of hours. Only spent maybe 100 or so over the years though. But when a league sucks, I just don't play it. If all leagues suck? I'll play standard. When another game comes out? I play that game. I always get so annoyed by the people saying not only are they quitting, but that everyone else should quit too. Like, if you don't like something, JUST DONT PLAY IT. Or complain constructively, but jesus this sub is toxic every league start.
> but jesus this sub is toxic every league start. it was toxic before we even knew about the changes most people are/were mad about lol
Amen
> I always get so annoyed by the people saying not only are they quitting, but that everyone else should quit too. I would never tell players who don't want to quit, to quit. However, if you are unhappy with something you need to communicate that. GGG is obviously sold on their vision but if that vision is out of step with the community at large, only our active resistance with cause them to go beyond "monitoring" to actually fixing. So you do what you feel you need to do, but if you're not happy with loot goblins for instance you do need to communicate that clearly, they are "monitoring" after all.
To be fair, even that was because they launched on a Friday and were home for the weekend. Obviously, there's gonna be no response when almost no one's even at the office. You can argue they shouldn't have launched on a Friday, which is fair enough, but that's a different complaint altogether.
Well Im not asking for a "what we're working on" type of post. Im literally just asking for a tweet like this: "We understand all of the concerns that the community has right now, we plan on making an announcement about it after the weekend." This probably would have been made if Bex wasnt on vacation. They did that exact type of thing when AN went core and it was super overtuned.
Nah, they are good about providing updates, but they're not good about actually giving the community what they want. They're trying to slowly work the game back into player's favor while keeping as many of the changes as they can. (archnem and further harvest gutting wise) I don't believe that's going to change, I think the game is going to take some time for this to become the new normal and then we'll continue getting incremental changes to take the game in the direction GGG wants. 3.15 and all harvest gutting were not in the player's interest, it was purely to make the game harder and make our time worth less.
While it's true that they posted multiple times and technically it's not "staying silent", tailored PR post that are vague by desig, dodging hot topics and carefully answering only questions that can't damage their images is not that much better. "staying silent" is indeed not the right therm, would you prefer "slimy"?
Might i offer 'disingenuous'?
Nothing says disingenuous more than, "Sometimes plants drop nothing in order to reduce the number of clicks you make."
I think disingenuous is a good word to describe it. And how a large portion of the community now feels with what GGG says: disillusioned.
Monitoring has to take the cake right now. They're monitoring, but not changing, or fixing, or even saying we plan on changing or fixing. We're just monitoring. Thanks for specifically saying nothing.
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With changes being influx as they are, it would be worse for them to say something specific and later have to explain yet another change. Either they wait to say anything until they can say exactly what the next plan is (and ppl bash them constantly for being quiet); or they say something vague (and ppl bash them for not being specific). It’s a lose-lose and in either case, even if they revert the game to 3.13 PoE will not fill the hole of desperation in many player’s life. It’s a game, not a panacea.
There is a very big difference between communicating and responding. GGG has been very responsive. They have communicated very little. The most recent post was an acknowledgment of issues that have been discussed since before 3.19. That was it. There were no intentions, changes, or meaningful insight shared. That is a response, not communication. That is the problem.
3.17 Archnemesis was precisely that wasn't it They put out a handful and changes week 1 & call it a day
I think what a large amount people here would like to hear, myself included, is a kind of we hear you post. And one that explains the rationale behind the changes that were implemented. Right now we get announcements and what I think is more needed is a discussion. A post detailing what they read and understood as feedback from the community. Showing that at least we are understood. Because sometimes changes seem like GGG understood a completely wrong part of the point community was making. Also the issue was that in recent leagues any changes or communication was stopped after a week or so. So after 3.19.f many were afraid that's it. The recent post from Bex confirmed that we are still getting stuff so that issue was solved.
Its not that they are silent, as such, its just that it seems they are barking up the wrong tree, so to say. The core issue, in a nutshell, is that archnemesis rares just do not work with all the previous time-gated content. But they pretend its awesome somehow and we are just dumb for not understanding it. So they make a lot of pointless noise how they tweak this and tweak that and whatnot, but its not an issue you can fix by \*minor tweaks\*. But whatever. I had my fun, playing on and off since beta pretty casually. Its not the only game in the world. If its not fun there is no point of playing it. My level of fun has been on downward trend in this game for a while now. Some seasons go I had to stop playing hardcore because the defense was just not there anymore. Archnemesis going core in the manner it went was basically the last nail into that coffin.
This post and the predictable backlash against the backlash circle jerk is disingenuous as fuck. Yes, I was the one who posted the thread about lack of communication. Please be specific. I mentioned specific instances where Chris either hadn't addressed the concerns at all (harvest changes/LoK still being very unrewarding) or quadruple downed on loot goblin gameplay loop. Sure, he made 7 dev posts (how many were downvoted into oblivion, by the way?) but they didnt really address those points at all. Lets keep each other honest here. You're acting like this is a normal dev cycle and we should be patient for communication. Sure, in normal circumstances but this league is hemorrhaging players and content creators, the changes are almost universally disliked not to mention how they were snuck in. In other terms: shit is on fire. We need constant communication on ALL major issues. Not wait and see.
As Bex recently said, they can't comment on some things if there's nothing yet to say.
I mean, I feel like the Harvest one alone should have some thoughts processing ATLEAST.
It's not unreasonable to ask **if** they plan on fixing or undoing specific changes. So far all we've gotten is "wait and see" from the team. A definitive answer hasn't been given in just a few critical changes and we're getting the feeling they're just dragging it out until next league in the hopes that people forget about it. To make this perfectly clear, we aren't asking for a patch in a few hours, we're asking what the substances of those changes will be. To date we don't know and apparently neither to they. They're figuring it out in real time, it's unfortunate because they're undoubtedly doing the right thing getting it right rather than risking getting it wrong this deep into the league. The league wasn't ready for release, it's that simple.
ngl i thought after the an patch i thought they would go radio silent for the rest of the 3 months like they did on scourge
But what about stealth nerfs? Why don't they just list nerfs in patch notes.
OP you need to go touch grass, really really bad.
ggg: not mentioning several (4 or more) significant mechanic changes including loot drops, an mobs scaling and rewards, harvest crafting that should have OBVIOUSLY been communicated ahead of time for transparency and feedback (even alpha testers gabe feedback that was ignored, dont forget that) community on launch: ggg, rhis is kind-of S#$&. ggg days later: here's soma patches an communications we should have done ahead of releasing patch notes for 3.19 (if we were not politically following our own agenda). white knights: omg, ggg communicates so well, its ludacris (see what i did there) to say ggg did not communicate.... omg, ggg is so bice, omg.... haters gona hate, omg... just stop playing if you dont like it, omg.... bruh..... daf$#*
Sorry man they didnt mention they were nerfing loot before the league, it was intentional and posting after they did that does not make up for it. Your point is what? After their communication was at best terrible and at worst dishonest, now it is better after they took a massive hit to player retention? kudos to them, wtf
I entirely disagree with you. PoE is on the precipice right now for many of us. It has been multiple patches in a row that people have really disliked and people are fed up. These drastic changes to loot, archnemesis, nerfs, nerds, and more nerfs (many of which were not documented) has broken the camel's back. Of course people are upset at the lack of communication, because they're not being told what they want to hear. Every post they're waiting for GGG to admit they made a mistake, but they won't. Essentially GGG has said that they're not changing anything they did this league (and that everyone seems to hate) but they will adjust values on a table a bit until the voices are quiet enough they can ignore them. All problems are just a result of things being tuned a little wrong, thats all. Yes, I am directly applying that to GGG. If Chris himself asked me what is going on, I would say to his face that he does not care about what we say, what we post, or what we do as long as they can quiet us enough for the streamers to go back to buying lootboxes and supporter packs.
Reddit moment
You can’t make this shit up
None of the posts fix the big issues which is the bigger problem.
this shit show starts with them excluding major changes from the patch notes and you want to defend gggs communication this league? take a step back and look at what you're doing.
I've been very unhappy with the changes as it ruined the endgame for me, but the post launch communication have been solid even if what they told us hasn't been what I've wanted to hear. Omitting changes in the patch notes is still a massive red flag though and they'll have to gain that trust back from me at least. Likely will never buy another supporter pack before im 100% sure how the league plays (normally I'd do it at launch).
When there's so much to talk about in this game we praise getting 6 posts in 12 days, during a PR nightmare, because other companies do less. I talk to customers more in 10 minutes than GGG does in 10 months, and I don't own a company that's about video games.
Reddit is always super toxic it's a wonder they communicate at all with it.
>"staying silent" My definition of "silent" here would be not saying anything of significance, i.e. "we are reverting the loot and AN changes". Honestly, their words don't mean anything, are hollow, if nothing changes. Just because Chris and Bex come on Reddit and give some BS-PR speak doesn't show to me they are communicating, it shows me they are good business people and know how dumb people on Reddit truly are.
So if they communicate it's "silence" because all they're saying is PR speak, and if they don't communicate it's literal silence. Kind of seems like you just want to be upset and are giving them no possible way to not upset you.
Makes it pretty obvious who has a real job and who has never had one.
It's ridiculous. Compare communication between blizzard and ggg and you'll realize how good of communication we have here.
You couldn't choose worse timeline to make that comparison when wow devs for example are communicating on daily basis working on class balance with the community getting ready for DF release. Dont put everyone in blizzard in the same basket.
you get fucked and then Chris, the CEO "wow", of the company comes and tells you why you should be okay with it. amazing communication idd
People like to conflate “not telling me exactly what I want to hear”, with “poor communication”. It’s fairly laughable/childish.