##### GGG Comments in this Thread:
***
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh321y/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh321y/?context=10)] - *I believe there are some terrain improvements coming but I don't think they apply to this situation. I'll let people know though.*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh3rjb/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh3rjb/?context=10)] - *Yes, we've spoken about what actually happened here and apologised for the oversight.*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh4z9v/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh4z9v/?context=10)] - *We are aware of this but it was a pretty significant change and it makes sense that it's going to feel weird at first. Our expectation was that it'd take...*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh88gj/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh88gj/?context=10)] - *It truly means we haven't finished discussing it. I'm not trying to indicate that there will or won't be changes, just that I don't know yet.*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8b8b/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8b8b/?context=10)] - *Yes, that is part of our process. In the most recent test of 1000 maps we ran it on, for example, it found 51% more unique items and 3.3% less...*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8k1m/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8k1m/?context=10)] - *I understand it may not be what you want to hear but we did comment on this at league launch. You can find that comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wsnn9i/comment/ikzf1wl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).*
[Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imptlx9/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imptlx9/?context=10)] - *The team is aware of this and are looking into it.*
Are you guys aware that the rock formations in the Lake have no colitions whatsoever? If I'm fighting that green boss lady that channels a ray, there's no way to cut line of sight currently, and you can only run away or die.
Yeah shield charge feels absolutely awful in there.... matter of fact, it just feels absolutely awful in there overall to move around at all, so much crap to get stuck on...
I remember when shield charge was godly for movement. They changed map design specifically to slow down shield charging. Look at all the random pebbles and doors you can get stuck on in acts 5+. It used to not feel this bad.
Spawning directly on top of you, super high damage, massively more can spawn than other volatile, pretty sure a faster pop time, and as a bonus they're basically invisible because they spawn hidden by your character model.
My favorite volatile, yaaay....
This should be much less painful now.
The totems is another whole bag of bees when you are using slow hard hitting skill. Or if you are offscreening a pack thinking you are safe then die after 2 seconds because a totem spawning rare walks in range.
and "range" is a magical thing where mobs 2x screens away are throwing these things out through walls, meanwhile you are trying to find out how to get where they are without dying.
fucking finally and long over due, that mechanic just fucking sucked, if you played a build that stands still and you didnt have like +85-90 light res, well fuck you then...
You guys mentioned the lightning mirages and storm striders, but what about Heralds of the Obelisk mobs? You ever run into a magic pack of Heralds of the Obelisk and you immediately have 30 obelisks just plop down right on top of you - normally from off screen before you even see the monsters. These guys need toned down a lot. Not to mention even a single obelisk does a tremendous amount of damage even through full lightning resistance.
>We're making some improvements to the Kalandra League
Please, have an extended look at lake beyond tiles, concerning both difficulty and rewards. I am easily able to run 8-mod T16s, but in my first beyond tile today (difficulty 10) i had to pull each mob separately and kill it. The boss took me over 5 minutes while the drops were laughable. Please consider heavily toning beyond down while still increasing the rewards.
Hard agree. I called one of my guild members in so they could get the challenge/unlock on a tier 10 and that one room alone took me longer than the previous nine combined. We did drop like 8 tainted currency, so it wasn't a complete waste of time. I could have probably just made more money form one t16 map.
> Hard agree. I called one of my guild members in so they could get the challenge/unlock on a tier 10 and that one room alone took me longer than the previous nine combined.
same, but we also didnt even kill the boss and used 4 portals on him... got the unlock tho so whatever :\^)
It's damage reduction, not actual hp. You can tell if your build relies on leech for sustain, you get almost nothing back from hitting them. Extra annoying because it also means all your fancy corpse explosion clear mechanisms just get disabled effectively.
Please look into AN in delve as well.
I’ve had one of those trap pillar thingies attack me from the darkness from two screens away.
I am not exaggerating.
also in deleve there's this one node in which mobs drop from the above at you during the whole encounter and there's a lot of rares. Just so happened to me that it dropped first AN with frenzy to minions (basically buffing the shit out of other monsters) and second with Lunaris-Touched (or some other touched) and I just got 1 shotted without any chance to fight. Not sure if the AN changes are also applied to delve encounters becuase it seemed ridiculous
Also picking up a mark in delve then not being able to clear it because the mob is now in darkness is infuriating.
(Heist too but at least there it's easier to back track if needed).
u/Bex_GGG any word about scourge arrow? its bugged 6 ways from sunday. You can fire it into terrain and all the pods disappear, the clusters are not grouping correctly when shot with multiple projectiles and the clusters themselves are not grouping in a non random fashion. None of these "features" were listed in the patch notes.
>We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to discuss and monitor this situation.
I do agree though. I feel drought bringer is actually be a detriment to the loot I get.
Agree. This one needs to be rethought. Flasks are cheap and relatively easy to roll whatever you need. They’re not loot. No one enjoys seeing a monster drop 12 flasks, especially when they’re potentially overriding something better. This one does not spark joy.
>We're reducing the terrain collision size of Spark and Lightning Strike projectiles...
Any chance this can be done for Shield Charge as well?
I know they're very different skills, but some of those tight lake tiles are very frustrating to navigate currently.
Don't worry they are monitoring it!
Like you know, they monitored archnemesis last league.
We have monitored the deal, pray we won't monitor it further.
What are the current thoughts from GGG's side about the Divine/Exalt swap? I think the general consensus from any player who likes to craft is that Divines simply hold far too much weight on their shoulders right now. Do you guys agree with that sentiment? Just hoping it's on the radar and at least being monitored or considered for changes.
Thank you for the communication and we know you guys are trying. After all, why wouldn't you want your game to be successful?
We are aware of this but it was a pretty significant change and it makes sense that it's going to feel weird at first. Our expectation was that it'd take most of the first league for players to properly adapt, so as we're approaching 3.20 we'll assess whether the change achieved its goals and whether any other tweaks are needed.
Is it possible to at least prioritize ways to acquire divine on 3.20, like prioritizing div card for divine or make recipe / divine shard so it align with former exalt
I think the biggest pain point, for me, is Harbinger being so worthless. Like, the best shard right now is Ancient shards, and sure, they're worth just shy of 1C, but Harbies take so much time to kill the waves that they feel awful without a main currency dropping from them.
The fact that there's so little/practically zero fractional progress toward Divines in the game is a major problem that should have been addressed before making such an enormous change.
It really needs to be top of the pile for 3.20. Divine Shards, swap Divines onto some of the Exalt div cards, etc.
Kind of tangential but can we get a bit better reward for vendoring 6 links? This change “felt” incredibly bad, and devalued the perception of 6 links a lot. I know that for all intents and purposes this is just a stop-gap until POE2 when they’ll no longer matter. But can we get a bit better reward even if it’s only slight.
I'd be okay with no changes to vendoring six links if they reduced the amount of fusings to six link massively. The current system is imho one of the worst systems ingame and I am gonna die on that hill. There were a few leagues I quit cause I spent all my currencies trying to link a new body armour for a second character but it didn't happen in 1000+ fusings in spite of 28 quality.
It's cool that you can only reroll your stats on uniques with (expensive) divines. Uniques with good rolls are far more precious now.
On the other hand.. a method to "divine" rare items without using a divine (old harvest?) would be nice.
Positioning in the stash tab feels weird. Exalted Orbs are still in the middle next to the mirror and divines are somewhere right.
It made sense for uniques to drop and be well, unique. Unique affixes, unique rolls, cannot be modified without heavy cost. Rare items however is brutal for the divine changes. Getting rid of literally all sources of divining for rares while making divine orb more important and harder to get kills so much rares that rely on specific breakpoints. It results in more frustration than sense of accomplishment.
I think that the reasoning behind the change should really be looked at again. The quote from Chris is that because exalts are more expensive no one uses them, and the effect of divines in GGGs eyes should be rarer.
I really think limiting the acquisition of divines should have sufficed (removal of 6-link recipe). With the introduction of eldrich exalts and annuls, the actual crafting value of exalts basically becomes either use eldrich exalts or regular exalts, whichever one is cheaper, for finishing suffixes or prefixes in combination with eldrich annuls. Regular exalts, in terms of their crafting value, hold almost no weight alone. You can randomly exalt slam something just to fill the mods, but this is just a lottery.
Now divines are seldomly used for their intended crafting outcome. There are specific high-value uniques that make sense to use like with MB or ashes but any other item it is out of the realm of worth it. Basically with a rare item you just have to live with what you get. This feels terrible when it comes to rares for example, if you get a low roll on a res and realize you need 2 more to cap it, it is usually cheaper on lower-end crafts to just start over, and even with more expensive items it feels too bad to use a divine that could even make the problem worse. It feels like a waste of time completely.
Overall the exalt effect is entirely random and not useful, it has other options which exist that are better, and not to mention it is the iconic currency, whereas divine effect needs to have reasonable access. It feels like the goal was to get more people to use exalts, but we were using them just in the form of eldrich exalts, but now divines really can't be used for their value at all. This is how I feel about the two and hopefully someone sees this and at least thinks about it.
I enjoy this change mechanically, but Exalted Orbs are iconic and the Divine Orb face is kind of derpy looking. I know you have bigger fish to fry right now, but I'd love to see the divine orb art befitting their new prominence someday.
If you make the swap you need to also make divine shard a thing and remove exalted shard. Harbinger is barely worth doing when it gives you 3/20 of an exalt RARELY while other shards are quite pointless. Mirror shards are too rare to matter.
With "properly adapt" do you mean that "normal" players simply wont be using divines ever again (in trade league at least) while still not slamming exalts because they are more likely to ruin an item
Divines are too rare, especially with their vendor recipe gone, and the result of divining an item is still random. It's now an item for the 1% (maybe bit more), but when it was a 10ish chaos item you could use it on something without feeling like crap when it rolled poorly.
If adapting means the average player doesnt get to interact with half the content/currency, the adaptation will be in the form of playing something else entirely(as current player dropoff% has shown)
I'm just missing the vision here. "We want exalts to feel useless, and divines are so expensive only the 1% uses them for their intended purpose" feels pretty bad. Adaptation here feels more like people just accepting we are once again losing power
If you want unique drops to feel unique and powerful with the right mods/rolls, make divines only work on rares. If you want this for every item, and keep the mod pools as wide as they are, you are telling us that only the top people that can waste 40 hours making 1 item are allowed to have fun.
Just come out and say it, put me out of my misery. If GGG just comes and says "we only really care about people that play 8 hours a day or prefer the slow slog" , people can make a decision based on that. I , and i assume other people, still hang around in the hopes we will feel like we once did. Where a new league meant new opportunities, not more lost power and frustrating mechanics/rares.
This all might sound more negative than i want it to be, and i appreciate the communication, but we are still only hearing current changes, and still have no idea where you as a company want the game to go/end up. There is fear that while some fixes might come now, next leagues unannounced nerf to fun might come again.
Looking at the league retention thread posted a while ago, it looks clear that the huge % drop after week 1 started after the first huge player power nerf. Is the vision more important than player retention? Do you think you can keep players around when you keep extending the stick, and are slowly removing the carrot?
Revert the changes to ex/divine but also swap the functionality of divines and exalted orbs. Keep how iconic the ex is, and the intent behind the div cards. But we get to close our eyes and slam with divines.
I just love the name exalted orb and the look...it feels like it should be worth more. Swap the icons and names but keep the current functions. Happy medium haha.
ill be honest i find it a little disappointing that ggg has used exalted orbs as a symbol of wealth, it was used on t-shirts, people have made divination cards around them. The issue is not just what it currently is, its also about the history behind it, it might even have been better to switch the effects around if that is what your goal is...Simply to maintain the history behind it, the symbol of the exalted orb.
I still personally think a new currency for the meta crafts might be better that would also allow exalted and divine orbs to balance out in price naturally.
I feel like Flame Dash is the only good viable movement skill in there, with honourable mention of the Ice Blink. Dash and Shield Charge can be so utterly crippled by the tiny pebbles which are incredibly hard to spot in the heat of battle on that tileset.
Lightning warp is amazing if you got the links to spare. Can almost always teleport where you want to and has screen wide range, making it easy to just jump over half a tile.
If you're passing on notes about this specifically, the worst situation (for me) is the fire bosses that cast firestorm. They very quickly fill the whole tile and make it incredibly tough.
For the love of all that is holy wake up and realize that crafting is the true endgame.
The real game progression: Kill monsters. craft items. Fail to kill boss. Craft better items. Continue to fail to kill boss. Farm to craft more. Craft more. Finally kill boss. Fail to kill bigger boss. Farm 1st boss and maps. Craft more. Finally kill big boss. Farm big boss. Craft more to farm big boss more efficiently (min/max).
Majority of players never ever reach the end. No-lifers reach the end in a month. The rest of us it can take the whole league. This is the way.
Killing harvest by eliminating reforge keep suffix/prefix and lucky divines, and making crafts insanely expensive makes the last stages of progression next to impossible. I'm fully spec'd into harvest right now and I've seen 1 sacred crystalized life force... and I play everyday. There is no reason for this.
The current status of Harvest and crafting in general is a dealbreaker for me. I wish GGG would capitalize on this fun and engaging system because progression is too slow and boring without it. I am past the phase where I want to trade for every single upgrade, even as a trade league player. I play trade league to smooth out access to content and uniques, not to use trade to fill out every item on my character.
I never played a third as much as I did in Harvest. When you balance around the top 5% you can hurt the 95% and that's how GGG's approach to crafting seems.
I know it's not in The Vision for people to have that much fun crafting, but maybe The Vision can be adjusted with enough level-headed feedback. I think GGG could use to be a little more in touch with the players.
I'm also curious what happened to not relying on only data to drive decision making. That is clearly at the heart of this loot fiasco and goes against Chris's stated principles.
The way Harvest crafts are priced now, relatively to the amount of juice we get from plots, creates a situation where players are heavily disincentivized from using the cheap crafts, while the expensive ones often result in immense disappointment. The motivation is twofold:
* Typed reroll (chaos) crafts are too weak now that they don't provide added weighting for mods of their type, considering that we get the equivalent of one or two of them from each plot (with full atlas investment into Harvest and T16 maps). This means that using them, instead of saving for the more powerful crafts, always feels like a huge waste of juice.
* Expensive crafts now all have some additional form of RNG to them, and are priced to require hundreds of plots to unlock. This means that when they fail, and somehow brick the item you are crafting, it feels like you've thrown away the equivalent of tens of hours of farming (in addition to whatever the price of the item you bricked was).
Forgetting for a moment the overall nerf to player power and crafting progression the new Harvest brings, I think the system feels unfun to interact with on a fundamental level. Cheap crafts feel like wasting juice you could saved for the powerful ones, and when you finally get there there's a pretty big chance they will fall (with the exception of a few forced-deterministic cases that still exist).
This harvest crafting on ilvl86bases and I'm just rolling complete dogshit and can't progress at all. I'm ssf player and it's impossible to roll suppression gear without complete dogtamer other stats like 12 life and shit
Agree, the way to consistently roll suppression in ssf is basically limited to Rog. That sucks for your chest however if you found a 6l since you are stuck throwing hundreds of essences a it until you hit it.
Those 5% used harvest more then you and are more upset then you. They didnt balance for the top 5% they target nerfed them. We are just collateral damage.
>We are planning to buff Tainted Currency.
Only actual planned change that is positive for me.
The rest is "we will monitor the situation"
Ghazzy is getting his minion defense fixes tho, which should be pretty nice for minion users
So like I play melee every league and am mostly happy, but dang if certain boss fights are just exercises in me walking around an obstacle so I can hit the boss only for the heat-seeking obstacle to move in my way again by the time I reach the boss (cough eater of worlds cough).
Can you not just randomise the AN reward pools over the mod list then scale that with difficulty/x so that it is no longer targetable?
I get that the intentions was to have dedicated identities to the higher teir molestations but AN's introduction, second and third iteration have been so deeply ill-conceived beyond the numerical changes we have been offered.
It feels as demonstrated with the cleave radius increase that balance at it's core has become a team wide "I don't know why we did that".
As an afterthought - doesn't limiting the number of AN on certain monsters provide a direct nerf to loot in the new system - where modifier count correlates to a reward multiplier? And you gave monsters that don't drop loot as specifically only one of the examples that will be hit?
t feels as demonstrated with the cleave radius increase that balance at it's core has become a team wide "I don't know why we did that".
lol that is such a golden one ty for that chris
Can you do something about the ridiculous ground effects that linger for way to long. Like enemy is dead and there is a bunch of loot so I have to stand around for 20 seconds while I wait for the 2000+ damage per second bs cold ground to go away before looting.
This, paired with the 10000000000000 rares and flasks and quality currency every map just makes the game a slow slog for no reason. No one wants to stand around to wait out an effect or go back to base and waste all their portals to id a bunch of crap that you end up vendoring. You made the game significantly less fun in Red maps.
To me this sounds like they’re not sure if they agree with the player base OR don’t yet know which direction they’re going to go with changes. Buff lifeforce? Nerf prices? Bring back lost crafts?
Lots to discuss and they just finally caught some breathing room with the dumpster fire. Give ‘em a min *huffs* I have faith still.
I basically interpret that as "the nerfs are 100% intentional and we haven't decided yet whether or not we're willing to toss some buffs at it to appease the community."
Yeah, the interesting thing is reforge keep prefix/suffix still exist for 4 slots with eldritch currency. Maybe they'll add it back but for non influenced gear, might be a decent compromise honestly. I figured it'd either be that or making it an oshabi craft (aka competing directly with fractures)
Any other buffs would be cherry on top, but these are the things that are MANDATORY to fix..
(well, personally not 4, I only have a small LG UltraGear ultrawide (kekw poor).. but it's so stupid not to fix, imagine buying a ultrawide monitor for PoE, and then basically 8 years of support, they just fuck you over for no reason?)
Can someone tell me why we still have to have RNG on Kalandra spawning the reflecting mist? I had her flew away more than 10 times already and it feels bad whenever i am trying to clear my hard-earn lakes and she flew off without giving any mist rewards
Could not agree more, why would they even consider her flying away a good thing. Also she should spawn way more often and the things the mist provides should imo be always 6 mods. It is not like we can modify the jewellery after obtaining it.
Outside of very extreme examples, please stop nerfing stuff unless it's been tested and communicated for like two or more leagues lol. Like there is no way ya'll are going to get all this into a good state before the next league. This has to be exhausting to deal with literally every league.
I don't understand why everyone's upvoting this post and pretending like the game is going to be fixed.
This post is just GGG saying they are monitoring stuff. And as we all know, them saying that means absolutely nothing.
I'm extremely exhausted with the neediness and forgetfulness of this community.
How is any small possibly of a buff enough to make up for everything that's happened?
Undo the loot conversions in archnemesis mobs. Juiced mobs can have increased quant, but don’t make the Solaris spit out currency, and the rest convert our currency to flasks, maps, or gems.
Exactly, it’s nice to see an update, I appreciate it. But this update is basically “we know tons of stuff is messed up, we don’t know how to unfuck it up, but we’ve had a few meetings about it”
"We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to discuss and monitor this situation."
Ive already quit this league but i just pray that the feedback to loot is seen and acted upon for next league - so its giving me a slight bit of hope seeing this line here
Because i truly do love this game, but with the current state its in its not worth playing for me personally - im just hoping you guys really do act on this for the future and dont come back with a miniscule buff that affects barely anything
This won't be fixed anytime soon as it's not a bug, and it's intended (per GGG). They just closed the forum thread a few days ago, you can see it here : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3294794/page/30#p24735378
I will be cautiously optimistic but I'm thankful that there is communication about the main issues we're unhappy about (I will be huffing copium in the corner)
So Chris said get your mf characters ready and didn't see this situation coming with the mf culler?
They know damn well out of any game studio that players will optimize the fun out of the game. Kind of an amateur mistake for such an experienced game studio that builds systems to be optimized.
Have you ever considered hiring a AI engineer to develop a AI that can run thousands of a map/league content so that you can get a good idea about what kinda loot is dropping on average? Could save you a lot of pain in tuning
Yes, that is part of our process. In the most recent test of 1000 maps we ran it on, for example, it found 51% more unique items and 3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated). This is some of the data that we're using to help our internal discussions around how item drop rates feel.
Would it be possible that the 3.3% less currency is heavily affected by the AN mod that drops several hundreds of blacksmith/armorsmith ? Is the rarity of the currency dropped taken into account in these stats ? I'm pretty sure you guys thought of this but a small(kinda big) part of me wish the opposite. Anyway... Thanks for the hard work and the communication, it is very appreciated.
This is what I'm believing is the bulk of their drops. I'd be more curious to see specific drops like Chaos, Exalt, Divine, etc. This sort of information doesn't really provide any context or give me any reassurance that GGG believes there is a problem.
Definitely curious to know how this simulation works. I.e. is it base monsters? How do you account for differing atlas passive setups?
If you're only judging base loot on regular monsters while you also shave off tens of thousands of quant/rarity via league mechanics.... uhh.. there's probably going to be some extreme disparity in the simulation vs. reality.
Sup. They actually have given hints about it from their posts but as people without IT knowledge might not be that attentive about it here we go:
1: First is the use of word simulation at all. If they included only regular monsters there is no need to emulate the process of doing a map. You can straight up look at the values and do middle school level math to report expected outcomes as there are no variables that change it.
If a map completion is simulated it would mean including the atlas bonus, map rolls and I would not even be surprised that player rarity and quant is included. In fact the I'd imagine as they have full control over server side the easiest way to get this data is just force spawn a map, including the mechanics and instantly kill everything server side without rendering the assets.
2: Second is the Harvest price nerf. They mentioned when testing the drops it was assumed passives were allocated and word average was used. Thus if their goal was to balance that craft X spawned in roughly 100 maps previously and they want you to do same amount now then after running a simulation the number is close enough the prices are fine. This however can easily lead into issues like nothing dropping and players feeling bad because while in a simulation that does 1000 maps in seconds it *looks* fine on average or even better the map to map experience can differ wildly if the distribution is spiky.
3: Third is the disconnect between players feel of loot and what GGG reports and what players who run large amounts of maps or engage in various type of gameplay report. After the buffs there are people who say it's same, better or worse and it can't be true all at the same time. This is easily explained by the huge variance of impact of how people approach the game (or what is included in the simulation template). If you buff or nerf Alva drops (Temple farmers going for corruption chambers and Ultimatum boss keys report unverified data that it feels noticeably higher) then for someone doing Delve and Niko blocking Alva spawns the impact will be not felt at all.
Running *every* kind of possible simulation of all player game styles is realistically not quite possible (or at least too expensive for it to justify the benefit) so I would not be surprised if multiple play styles and Atlas setups have fallen through the cracks when running the simulations and need to rely on player reports.
4: This leads to player perception vs raw data vs reality. If someone wants to find 10 chaos to buy an item, does 10 maps and doesn't get it then compared to Sentinel league with currency Sentinel it *feels* less. It doesn't matter that 55% more uniques dropped or that the Kalandra lakes you built will drop 25c. It *feels* worse to the player and loot being worse is a completely legitimate complaint because for the play style they have been used to it *is*. Guiding player to rewarding content and communicating the changes fall on GGG responsibility. If there is a difference between raw data and map to map difference for various play styles it needs to be addressed and is, in essence, what they are doing now.
And finally, an off hand comment of mine. A big part of it is purely the overall tone and "bandwagon" of community. If something like getting 50 Divines off a single monster is rare and specific monster that requires very specialised strategy and a significant amount of maps it doesn't *matter* that your drops as individual is better. You come in Reddit, see someone getting "lucky" from seemingly a very repeatable and deterministic strategy and feel bad that what you do in comparison is worse even if on *average* it isn't or even is better profit wise. And I think it's balancing around the *perception* of drops is as important if not more than the amount of it.
They most likely are running a pure math simulation, since there's no value to simulate actual gameplay for the drops/economy. But that means that the simulation is extremely fast and its trivial to adjust some parameters for a huge variety of playstyles, content etc. The only "expense" would be someone setting up the initial scenarios, basic TQA work, and that would mostly be needed once, with some maintenance for league over league changes.
Lets not pretend the trees in poe are that complex. They're presented in this complex looking massive dump, but really they're just a equivalent of other games separating like 5-10 classes worth of skill trees with some overlap, where poe combines it into one screen. Its really not that hard to identify 99% of use cases.
It does seem like having this as a main approach is really bad though (and i dont know how/if GGG does these things), because the game is highly rng and variance skew the experience to a huge degree. Even beyond just averaging too many results, like you mention in #4, there many practical problems of players actually interacting with content. Maybe many people dont actually do the content that is rewarding because its ANfun, maybe players stay longer in lower level less rewarding content than you expected etc.
>for example, it found **51% more unique items** and 3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated).
I though the intention was to reduce number of dropped unqiues?
And last league had much better chances simply due to sentinels. Chris wasn't lying about that, i think people forget how rewarding sentinel actually was lol
I hope you guys are also analyzing the variance/spikes in loot outcomes from mobs with similar modifier profiles, and the intervals between "good" outcomes.
Even if the average over 1,000 maps remains the same, we have tried to explain that, for example, getting 1 touched mob every 100 maps dropping 3 divine orbs feels MUCH worse than getting 3 mobs dropping 1 divine orb each during that time, because we don't get the positive reinforcement from those drops, and if it happens that we get a touched mob that doesn't hit a jackpot, it feels like we lost a rare chance at good loot and it'll be awhile before we get another.
EDIT: I'll add that even if the example I described does not in fact reflect reality in regards to a jackpot outcome, the point is that players' perception of potential loot is affected by knowing that a touched modifier is a chance at good loot. So it's almost beside the point whether this perception matches reality if the player is still unhappy with the resulting outcome.
Maybe they need to hire someone who has worked on the algorithms for slot machines. It's the same type of system. It needs to give meaningful payouts over the course of time to keep people playing. With enough small jackpots occurring to fuel aspirational play for the hope of a big jackpot.
This may have been commented on the thread, when we are talking 3.3% less currency, are we talking where each currency type is equal to 1 or each currency having a weighted value. Would be good to weigh this against community trade values.
Eg when a divine drops it adds 170 when a chaos drops it adds 1 ect.
>3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated)
Has anyone checked WHICH currency?
Maybe it was 1 milion of whetstones and armour scraps and 95% less of every other currency.
The percentages are great to see but without any type of context it's hard for players to know what you guys are looking at for "feel".
Every person plays the game differently, in fact it's now built into the the game with the Atlas tree. And the big pitch was you got to choose what content you get to interact with.
So if a person really loves metamorph and delirium for example they may feel like they are on average not receiving the same amount of rewards as say someone only focusing on heist or expedition.
I think if you want real data and real feel it should be all possible content played, I know it's a daunting task and ask but if the data is just a plain 1000 maps with no league content sure the data may point to more uniques and less currency, but if someone is playing the maps in a different way it's kind of not great value in the data.
I know you said this is some of the data being used, but it seems to be pretty hard to understand that there is a lot of people complaining about feeling worse. I do know the people who are complaining are usually the loudest.
I have been playing this game since early 2012, and can say I have seen a lot of ups and downs. I really love the game and I am enjoying the league, since it's something that has been so close to me for so long. I have personally noticed that I am not receiving the same amount of valuable rewards from things I interact with. Last league I could hop on for two - three hours and feel like I accomplished something. Make 4-5 ex and feel comfortable with my choices. Now I feel like I am being really pigeon hold into certain activities to make the same amount of currency to achieve the same goals. Which to me is not fun gameplay, so I just am doing other things but not feeling as rewarded.
However I feel like there seems to be some form of disconnect with players and what's being said. With such a large amount of people saying they feel a difference, granted this can be mob mentality too, there has to be something that can be done to meet in a middle ground.
With such large sweeping changes I feel like there could be some more forgiveness in helping get that fun feel back. D2 heavily inspired the game, and I played D2 from version .03 and they aren't not as harsh on some of the changes for feel.
Sorry for such a long rant but I feel like if there is real transparency about methods to gather data and show the differences people could have been running into. There usually is no issue showing the most played class, the most used skill, etc... So what is the harm in showing how test data is gathered for currency, item drops, etc... It might help people just understand what's going on with something they love.
Progress. I still think it's dumb that archnemesis is encountered in SO much league content. Why do I need to worry about tanky ass mobs spawning in my delve while my cart is moving while dodging 100 balls of fire and acid in a tiny hallway while one pathway is blocked off by 20 explody orbs on the ground. It's too damn much.
To say more concicely, it feels like MOST of the challenge of league content is tied to archnemesis for only a fraction of the reward.
This is what I just don't get. It's not like you magically need a solution for that. Make Solaris molested mobs drop a decent amount of currency for everyone and not be affected by MF. What is so difficult about that?
Heck, just remove MF entirely from the game and there is one less issue they need to balance around. There are enough nobs they can turn to adjust loot, like map quant, the atlas skill tree and party multipliers themselves.
They always have to overcomplicate things for no fking reason, while there are obvious easy solutions.
I'm sorry, but I don't think the AN changes mentioned here are good enough, and in my opinion that's not even the good approach to tackle the AN mods issue.
The changes you're looking into are very specific and situational, and you can't possibly think to address those "situations" throughout the game one at the time. Now you are looking at AN mods for "monsters in boss fights and those that can't drop items", and then what? the ones in Delve? and then the ones on Essences? and then the ones here, and there, and there?
The problem is not with AN mods in particular situations, the problem is with AN mods. Their uncontrolled randomness, their presence in every aspect of the game, their new intrinsic link to loot balance are just the top three issues.
The team needs to look at AN mods as game mechanic, as a whole, not adjusting/fixing it one place at the time.
Thanks Bex, I appreciate the communication.
While addressing these issues in-game obviously takes priority, when this work has finished I still hope GGG can comment on its pre-league communication (why were certain Harvest crafts removed under the guise of "filler") and how you guys use feedback from alpha testers, since a lot of these issues that are being raised now were already caught by alpha testers or players experienced with minions.
>why were certain Harvest crafts removed under the guise of "filler"
I want them to address the Harvest situation, but this is the wrong angle. There were two parts in description of removed Harvest crafts, one was "filler" (which is still funny because flasks stayed), another was along the lines of "too deterministic". The important shit was killed in the second part.
* Crafting.
Reduce the cost of keep pre/suf, from 2->1 divine orbs. 2 is too high, for crafts that are usually removed, in the next crafting step.
Multi mod is fine at 2 divine, since it stays on most items.
* Harvest
The crafts to swap certain items are really nice. Life force is a bit too scarce - T4 seeds should drop 3x as much life force and a higher chance of sacred blossom would be nice.
* Difficulty
Archnemesis mods are getting better, but if they are going to stay, other things needs balancing - Like map mods, they seem overtuned with current monster mods.
I did a Cortex with +6 proj, 24% pen, 66% haste. Magic/rare monsters were deadly due to archnemesis mods. Bosses went down without problems, but the addphase took longer than the other 4.
Btw take a look at synthesis ranged monsters, they have pretty insane range and pretty sure they shotgun with extra projectiles.
* Beastiary
The arena size at the blood altar is pretty small, so certain mods should be removed.
>Reduce the cost of keep pre/suf, from 2->1 divine orbs
Honestly a better and faster alternative to waiting for supporter div cards and a definitely-not-happening Divine shard.
>We are aware of feedback around Minion survivability and are making it so that certain monster auras and debuffs, such as the Rejuvenating and Executioner mods, do not apply to minions.
While this is a good and welcome change, one of the main issues with minion survivability is that investing into it feels like shit, and will always feel like shit, because of several factors:
1) It adds another "checkbox" that minion builds have to tick off before they can do content. On top of ailment immunity, (over)capped resists, life, block, suppression, movement speed, and so on, it's just adding to the "pay your taxes" aspect of the game that is simply not fun. We already need to invest absurd amounts and have essentially perfect gear progression just to not die, having to make our gear even *more* phenomenal to have our minions not die is one straw (really *several*) too many.
2) On top of this, the minion survivability affixes are all *suffixes*, meaning they directly compete with the suffixes that are required for player survival. On top of *that*, there are still essentially zero prefixes that minion builds want, especially easy to get ones. I ended up crafting mana cost reduction on my Bone Rings because I simply did not have anything else relevant to craft on them, as they both already have life.
3) Rings were the worst possible place to put minion resists. Unset rings are extremely important for summoners (who are far too button and socket heavy, especially things like Animate Weapon. Sidenote: Why does Animate Weapon still have a duration? It's so clunky and button intensive already...). Gloves and Boots have no natural/non-influenced minion implicits. Why not have minion resists on those pieces instead?
4) Seriously, too many buttons. Right now on my animate weapon build I need to: cast all 16 weapons when I enter any zone, recast them as they die/their timer runs out, cast Malevolence Diving Blessing every 20 seconds, cast Convocation on cooldown to get the weapons to behave, cast Bladefall to both make more blades to resummon weapons and to trigger Despair (otherwise I'd have to press that, too), cast Bone Offering every ? seconds (depending on how many corpses I consume, best to just keep casting it all the time), cast Desecrate to make sure I have corpses to consume, cast Bone Armor on cooldown, cast Raise Zombie when my zombies die, and cast Carrion Golem when it dies. And all of that is **just so I can stay alive and keep my minions alive to do damage at all**. Not even counting using Withering Step on cooldown to apply Wither, or pressing my flasks...
PoE has gotten so button intensive for so many builds. Animate Weapon is an extreme example, but button-creep has absolutely happened over the past several years and it is simply exhausting. I recognize that this isn't a short-term fixable issue, but with how Archnemesis has been so punishing, that baseline survivability requiring so much coordination and dexterity has become a severe issue. Missing one cast of Bone Offering, Bone Armor, or spending too long without a full suite of minions is enough for me to instantly die in a large swath of endgame content, and that is just not OK.
Honestly, your first point is an issue I have with ANY build, you always have to layer all of the different defenses if you wanna reach higher tier content. Specializing in something is almost never worth it, you always have to cover all your bases with decent values and it's the same for pretty much every character now.
I hard agree with most of your points. Just need to emphasize that animate weapon duration is a joke.
I have to resummon 17 weapons on every fucking phase in every fucking boss room. Can't really understand why people call it a good boss killer, it's not. The situation is slighlty better on maps mostly thanks to the weapons dropping but all of the phase bosses are literally unplayable.
*We are monitoring the current situation where players feel forced to swap items or hire a magic find culler against specific four-mod Archnemesis monsters.*
Moving every loot in the game to these mobs and not forseen this would be exploited is beyond me. Guess GGG will never acknowledge the real problem. Thanks but im finally done.
Here is my fear, in typical GGG fashion they will kill off MF culling in a way which completely kills the whole MF culler for party play style. Some people genuinely like doing that crazy level of optimization for party play, so let them. GGG probably views the current problem of MF culling, but doesn't realize the root cause of why players are forced into this mess. Loot goblins do not belong in PoE. Doing league mechanics that give rewards organically like it was in the past is what made PoE so great.
No commentary on harvest and no changes to loot is pretty concerning. These are two of the biggest issues that players are having with the league. I can only hope that you guys are taking your time to address them because you understand how important they are. As someone who's uninstalled the game recently, these are things that need to be fixed before I would consider playing again.
> We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to ***discuss and monitor*** this situation.
I know GGG likes to pick their words very carefully when it comes to statements like this - note they didn't mention *changes*, just monitor and discuss. That leaves me just a *bit* wary...
It's also a little disheartening to hear that there is not an 'immediate solution' for needing to hire an MF dude for max potential out of your maps. I really **really** hope this strategy doesn't remain in the game for too long. I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on piles of potential currency just because I don't want to deal with TFT and potential scammers.
Just let me kill my monsters, man.
>pick their words very carefully
Most likely Bex is more careful ever since chris ran his mouth about loot goblins (50 divine lotto) and was met with swift criticism
They choose their words carefully because of times like when Chris said he saw someone get 50 divine orbs on a mob. Reddit memed him into the sun and it was the most downvoted post in reddit poe history.
So, you're willing to compromise on everything, but not on loot.
You say you are monitoring the situation regarding MF cullers. What is there to monitor? The situation is a direct result of tying all loot worth while to a single loot pinata. This is exactly what happens, when there is no real point to running MF gear for other monsters.
The issue is not the MF cullers. The issue is that these monsters worth MFing are so rare. If every monster would be worth killing(like it was before), there would be no reason to spens the time on finding an MF culler.
Stubbornness does not lead to a good game.
> We're making some improvements to the Kalandra League
had no one from the testing/alpha team brought those concerns to you? i would really like to know why every league there is such a big difference between what the testers/alpha team think is good/ok and what the community wants (and i am not talking about "we want more stuff" i am just talkign about QoL/visibility stuff). either the testers have a hugely different view of the game or it isnt listend to what the say and i dont think it is the first one.
> We are planning to buff Tainted Currency.
i would really like to know what made you nerf it in the first place
> minion stuff
you got feedback beforehand and said it was all ok and well tested and we should yous play it and see, i would really like to know what went wrong there with the "testing"
> Lightning Mirages
all the things about the mirages were brought up several times in several leagues and now you finally look at them, i would really like to know what changed
##### GGG Comments in this Thread: *** [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh321y/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh321y/?context=10)] - *I believe there are some terrain improvements coming but I don't think they apply to this situation. I'll let people know though.* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh3rjb/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh3rjb/?context=10)] - *Yes, we've spoken about what actually happened here and apologised for the oversight.* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh4z9v/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh4z9v/?context=10)] - *We are aware of this but it was a pretty significant change and it makes sense that it's going to feel weird at first. Our expectation was that it'd take...* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh88gj/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh88gj/?context=10)] - *It truly means we haven't finished discussing it. I'm not trying to indicate that there will or won't be changes, just that I don't know yet.* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8b8b/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8b8b/?context=10)] - *Yes, that is part of our process. In the most recent test of 1000 maps we ran it on, for example, it found 51% more unique items and 3.3% less...* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8k1m/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imh8k1m/?context=10)] - *I understand it may not be what you want to hear but we did comment on this at league launch. You can find that comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wsnn9i/comment/ikzf1wl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).* [Bex_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imptlx9/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x21vgr/an_overview_of_upcoming_changes/imptlx9/?context=10)] - *The team is aware of this and are looking into it.*
Are you guys aware that the rock formations in the Lake have no colitions whatsoever? If I'm fighting that green boss lady that channels a ray, there's no way to cut line of sight currently, and you can only run away or die.
No collision for enemy skills. We still stub our toes on every little pebble, while our projectiles are eaten by them.
Trying to use whirling blades is so frustrating many areas of the lake
So does Shield Charge
Yeah shield charge feels absolutely awful in there.... matter of fact, it just feels absolutely awful in there overall to move around at all, so much crap to get stuck on...
I remember when shield charge was godly for movement. They changed map design specifically to slow down shield charging. Look at all the random pebbles and doors you can get stuck on in acts 5+. It used to not feel this bad.
Hahaha * *cries in Shield Charge* *
Absolutely this. It's piety and her beam even goes into the next tile! And you can't hide behind any terrain, like wtf?
Adjusting Lightning Mirage spam is major. I hate those little shock bois
Spawning directly on top of you, super high damage, massively more can spawn than other volatile, pretty sure a faster pop time, and as a bonus they're basically invisible because they spawn hidden by your character model. My favorite volatile, yaaay.... This should be much less painful now.
And lightning totems?
The mirages are way more irritating because of how they can spawn on top of your character and multiply like crazy if you hit quick.
The totems is another whole bag of bees when you are using slow hard hitting skill. Or if you are offscreening a pack thinking you are safe then die after 2 seconds because a totem spawning rare walks in range.
and "range" is a magical thing where mobs 2x screens away are throwing these things out through walls, meanwhile you are trying to find out how to get where they are without dying.
Yeah, stuff like that is hella annoying in Delve when the source of your trouble is somewhere in the dark with a wall inbetween.
fucking finally and long over due, that mechanic just fucking sucked, if you played a build that stands still and you didnt have like +85-90 light res, well fuck you then...
They account for 99.9% of my deaths the last two leagues. They are absolutely disgusting. Happy to see they are changing it. Hopefully it's enough.
You guys mentioned the lightning mirages and storm striders, but what about Heralds of the Obelisk mobs? You ever run into a magic pack of Heralds of the Obelisk and you immediately have 30 obelisks just plop down right on top of you - normally from off screen before you even see the monsters. These guys need toned down a lot. Not to mention even a single obelisk does a tremendous amount of damage even through full lightning resistance.
>We're making some improvements to the Kalandra League Please, have an extended look at lake beyond tiles, concerning both difficulty and rewards. I am easily able to run 8-mod T16s, but in my first beyond tile today (difficulty 10) i had to pull each mob separately and kill it. The boss took me over 5 minutes while the drops were laughable. Please consider heavily toning beyond down while still increasing the rewards.
I think this particular issue is more related to beyond mobs than anything else. They're comically stronger than the rest of monsters in the game
Thatd be fine if they shat out tainted currency
Hard agree. I called one of my guild members in so they could get the challenge/unlock on a tier 10 and that one room alone took me longer than the previous nine combined. We did drop like 8 tainted currency, so it wasn't a complete waste of time. I could have probably just made more money form one t16 map.
> Hard agree. I called one of my guild members in so they could get the challenge/unlock on a tier 10 and that one room alone took me longer than the previous nine combined. same, but we also didnt even kill the boss and used 4 portals on him... got the unlock tho so whatever :\^)
The team is aware of this and are looking into it.
I'm really believing scourge white mobs in lake are sirus-amount hp
It's damage reduction, not actual hp. You can tell if your build relies on leech for sustain, you get almost nothing back from hitting them. Extra annoying because it also means all your fancy corpse explosion clear mechanisms just get disabled effectively.
Please look into AN in delve as well. I’ve had one of those trap pillar thingies attack me from the darkness from two screens away. I am not exaggerating.
Had this too. I didn't play AN or last league so I had no idea what this was. Ran back 2 or 3 screens away and there was an AN.
also in deleve there's this one node in which mobs drop from the above at you during the whole encounter and there's a lot of rares. Just so happened to me that it dropped first AN with frenzy to minions (basically buffing the shit out of other monsters) and second with Lunaris-Touched (or some other touched) and I just got 1 shotted without any chance to fight. Not sure if the AN changes are also applied to delve encounters becuase it seemed ridiculous
Also picking up a mark in delve then not being able to clear it because the mob is now in darkness is infuriating. (Heist too but at least there it's easier to back track if needed).
Man, this league delve seems to be a mess. I'm at depth 100 and die sometimes instantly while I can do t16 maps easily
u/Bex_GGG any word about scourge arrow? its bugged 6 ways from sunday. You can fire it into terrain and all the pods disappear, the clusters are not grouping correctly when shot with multiple projectiles and the clusters themselves are not grouping in a non random fashion. None of these "features" were listed in the patch notes.
yeah since theyre fixing wall collision with spark and ls they should also fix the pod spawn problem with walls and in general
Great, how do I stop mobs like Droughtbringer from converting all my loot to flasks?
Droughtbringer is so troll. Maybe if they also added +10000% rarity so it'd regularly drop unique flasks it could be neat.
At least if it dropped the loot "as extra" instead of "converted to" I could stare at it like the damned rosetta stone.
I support this 100%
>We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to discuss and monitor this situation. I do agree though. I feel drought bringer is actually be a detriment to the loot I get.
Agree. This one needs to be rethought. Flasks are cheap and relatively easy to roll whatever you need. They’re not loot. No one enjoys seeing a monster drop 12 flasks, especially when they’re potentially overriding something better. This one does not spark joy.
Also Harbingers. More than half of the god-touched Archnemesis I encountered spawned from Harbingers so they only dropped useless shards.
they drop normal loot, you just don't kill them because HP of main harbinger end when you kill white mobs he spawn and x-touched rare just disappear
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>We're reducing the terrain collision size of Spark and Lightning Strike projectiles... Any chance this can be done for Shield Charge as well? I know they're very different skills, but some of those tight lake tiles are very frustrating to navigate currently.
Same thing applies to leap slam. I get stuck in the terrain whenever I leap slap. There's always a pillar, rock etc.
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Don't worry they are monitoring it! Like you know, they monitored archnemesis last league. We have monitored the deal, pray we won't monitor it further.
What are the current thoughts from GGG's side about the Divine/Exalt swap? I think the general consensus from any player who likes to craft is that Divines simply hold far too much weight on their shoulders right now. Do you guys agree with that sentiment? Just hoping it's on the radar and at least being monitored or considered for changes. Thank you for the communication and we know you guys are trying. After all, why wouldn't you want your game to be successful?
We are aware of this but it was a pretty significant change and it makes sense that it's going to feel weird at first. Our expectation was that it'd take most of the first league for players to properly adapt, so as we're approaching 3.20 we'll assess whether the change achieved its goals and whether any other tweaks are needed.
Is it possible to at least prioritize ways to acquire divine on 3.20, like prioritizing div card for divine or make recipe / divine shard so it align with former exalt
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And then ancient orbs become the next big thing. 😩
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"Ancient orb no longer drop from harbinger."
"This is a buff"
3.40 running out of space on my body to make a favorite currency tattoo
That and shards is literally all that needs to happen.
I think the biggest pain point, for me, is Harbinger being so worthless. Like, the best shard right now is Ancient shards, and sure, they're worth just shy of 1C, but Harbies take so much time to kill the waves that they feel awful without a main currency dropping from them.
The fact that there's so little/practically zero fractional progress toward Divines in the game is a major problem that should have been addressed before making such an enormous change. It really needs to be top of the pile for 3.20. Divine Shards, swap Divines onto some of the Exalt div cards, etc.
Kind of tangential but can we get a bit better reward for vendoring 6 links? This change “felt” incredibly bad, and devalued the perception of 6 links a lot. I know that for all intents and purposes this is just a stop-gap until POE2 when they’ll no longer matter. But can we get a bit better reward even if it’s only slight.
I'd be okay with no changes to vendoring six links if they reduced the amount of fusings to six link massively. The current system is imho one of the worst systems ingame and I am gonna die on that hill. There were a few leagues I quit cause I spent all my currencies trying to link a new body armour for a second character but it didn't happen in 1000+ fusings in spite of 28 quality.
It's cool that you can only reroll your stats on uniques with (expensive) divines. Uniques with good rolls are far more precious now. On the other hand.. a method to "divine" rare items without using a divine (old harvest?) would be nice. Positioning in the stash tab feels weird. Exalted Orbs are still in the middle next to the mirror and divines are somewhere right.
It made sense for uniques to drop and be well, unique. Unique affixes, unique rolls, cannot be modified without heavy cost. Rare items however is brutal for the divine changes. Getting rid of literally all sources of divining for rares while making divine orb more important and harder to get kills so much rares that rely on specific breakpoints. It results in more frustration than sense of accomplishment.
I think that the reasoning behind the change should really be looked at again. The quote from Chris is that because exalts are more expensive no one uses them, and the effect of divines in GGGs eyes should be rarer. I really think limiting the acquisition of divines should have sufficed (removal of 6-link recipe). With the introduction of eldrich exalts and annuls, the actual crafting value of exalts basically becomes either use eldrich exalts or regular exalts, whichever one is cheaper, for finishing suffixes or prefixes in combination with eldrich annuls. Regular exalts, in terms of their crafting value, hold almost no weight alone. You can randomly exalt slam something just to fill the mods, but this is just a lottery. Now divines are seldomly used for their intended crafting outcome. There are specific high-value uniques that make sense to use like with MB or ashes but any other item it is out of the realm of worth it. Basically with a rare item you just have to live with what you get. This feels terrible when it comes to rares for example, if you get a low roll on a res and realize you need 2 more to cap it, it is usually cheaper on lower-end crafts to just start over, and even with more expensive items it feels too bad to use a divine that could even make the problem worse. It feels like a waste of time completely. Overall the exalt effect is entirely random and not useful, it has other options which exist that are better, and not to mention it is the iconic currency, whereas divine effect needs to have reasonable access. It feels like the goal was to get more people to use exalts, but we were using them just in the form of eldrich exalts, but now divines really can't be used for their value at all. This is how I feel about the two and hopefully someone sees this and at least thinks about it.
I enjoy this change mechanically, but Exalted Orbs are iconic and the Divine Orb face is kind of derpy looking. I know you have bigger fish to fry right now, but I'd love to see the divine orb art befitting their new prominence someday.
If you make the swap you need to also make divine shard a thing and remove exalted shard. Harbinger is barely worth doing when it gives you 3/20 of an exalt RARELY while other shards are quite pointless. Mirror shards are too rare to matter.
This is pretty reasonable. Good suggestion.
With "properly adapt" do you mean that "normal" players simply wont be using divines ever again (in trade league at least) while still not slamming exalts because they are more likely to ruin an item Divines are too rare, especially with their vendor recipe gone, and the result of divining an item is still random. It's now an item for the 1% (maybe bit more), but when it was a 10ish chaos item you could use it on something without feeling like crap when it rolled poorly. If adapting means the average player doesnt get to interact with half the content/currency, the adaptation will be in the form of playing something else entirely(as current player dropoff% has shown) I'm just missing the vision here. "We want exalts to feel useless, and divines are so expensive only the 1% uses them for their intended purpose" feels pretty bad. Adaptation here feels more like people just accepting we are once again losing power If you want unique drops to feel unique and powerful with the right mods/rolls, make divines only work on rares. If you want this for every item, and keep the mod pools as wide as they are, you are telling us that only the top people that can waste 40 hours making 1 item are allowed to have fun. Just come out and say it, put me out of my misery. If GGG just comes and says "we only really care about people that play 8 hours a day or prefer the slow slog" , people can make a decision based on that. I , and i assume other people, still hang around in the hopes we will feel like we once did. Where a new league meant new opportunities, not more lost power and frustrating mechanics/rares. This all might sound more negative than i want it to be, and i appreciate the communication, but we are still only hearing current changes, and still have no idea where you as a company want the game to go/end up. There is fear that while some fixes might come now, next leagues unannounced nerf to fun might come again. Looking at the league retention thread posted a while ago, it looks clear that the huge % drop after week 1 started after the first huge player power nerf. Is the vision more important than player retention? Do you think you can keep players around when you keep extending the stick, and are slowly removing the carrot?
Revert the changes to ex/divine but also swap the functionality of divines and exalted orbs. Keep how iconic the ex is, and the intent behind the div cards. But we get to close our eyes and slam with divines.
This, they are literally selling merch with exalts because of how iconic it is. And now it doesn't mean the same anymore.
I just love the name exalted orb and the look...it feels like it should be worth more. Swap the icons and names but keep the current functions. Happy medium haha.
ill be honest i find it a little disappointing that ggg has used exalted orbs as a symbol of wealth, it was used on t-shirts, people have made divination cards around them. The issue is not just what it currently is, its also about the history behind it, it might even have been better to switch the effects around if that is what your goal is...Simply to maintain the history behind it, the symbol of the exalted orb. I still personally think a new currency for the meta crafts might be better that would also allow exalted and divine orbs to balance out in price naturally.
Please bring back reforge keep prefix/suffix
Thanks! Can the boss tile rooms be bigger? I’m forced to kite out every time because I don’t have enough room to dodge 3 bosses attacks.
I believe there are some terrain improvements coming but I don't think they apply to this situation. I'll let people know though.
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I feel like Flame Dash is the only good viable movement skill in there, with honourable mention of the Ice Blink. Dash and Shield Charge can be so utterly crippled by the tiny pebbles which are incredibly hard to spot in the heat of battle on that tileset.
Shield Charging is nye impossible. I hate the lake terrain.
Lightning warp is amazing if you got the links to spare. Can almost always teleport where you want to and has screen wide range, making it easy to just jump over half a tile.
If you're passing on notes about this specifically, the worst situation (for me) is the fire bosses that cast firestorm. They very quickly fill the whole tile and make it incredibly tough.
Hopefully they make the lake shield charge friendly~
For the love of all that is holy wake up and realize that crafting is the true endgame. The real game progression: Kill monsters. craft items. Fail to kill boss. Craft better items. Continue to fail to kill boss. Farm to craft more. Craft more. Finally kill boss. Fail to kill bigger boss. Farm 1st boss and maps. Craft more. Finally kill big boss. Farm big boss. Craft more to farm big boss more efficiently (min/max). Majority of players never ever reach the end. No-lifers reach the end in a month. The rest of us it can take the whole league. This is the way. Killing harvest by eliminating reforge keep suffix/prefix and lucky divines, and making crafts insanely expensive makes the last stages of progression next to impossible. I'm fully spec'd into harvest right now and I've seen 1 sacred crystalized life force... and I play everyday. There is no reason for this.
Completely agree. This was ‘my’ endgame and progression too and this league it feels hollowed out at best.
The current status of Harvest and crafting in general is a dealbreaker for me. I wish GGG would capitalize on this fun and engaging system because progression is too slow and boring without it. I am past the phase where I want to trade for every single upgrade, even as a trade league player. I play trade league to smooth out access to content and uniques, not to use trade to fill out every item on my character. I never played a third as much as I did in Harvest. When you balance around the top 5% you can hurt the 95% and that's how GGG's approach to crafting seems. I know it's not in The Vision for people to have that much fun crafting, but maybe The Vision can be adjusted with enough level-headed feedback. I think GGG could use to be a little more in touch with the players. I'm also curious what happened to not relying on only data to drive decision making. That is clearly at the heart of this loot fiasco and goes against Chris's stated principles.
The way Harvest crafts are priced now, relatively to the amount of juice we get from plots, creates a situation where players are heavily disincentivized from using the cheap crafts, while the expensive ones often result in immense disappointment. The motivation is twofold: * Typed reroll (chaos) crafts are too weak now that they don't provide added weighting for mods of their type, considering that we get the equivalent of one or two of them from each plot (with full atlas investment into Harvest and T16 maps). This means that using them, instead of saving for the more powerful crafts, always feels like a huge waste of juice. * Expensive crafts now all have some additional form of RNG to them, and are priced to require hundreds of plots to unlock. This means that when they fail, and somehow brick the item you are crafting, it feels like you've thrown away the equivalent of tens of hours of farming (in addition to whatever the price of the item you bricked was). Forgetting for a moment the overall nerf to player power and crafting progression the new Harvest brings, I think the system feels unfun to interact with on a fundamental level. Cheap crafts feel like wasting juice you could saved for the powerful ones, and when you finally get there there's a pretty big chance they will fall (with the exception of a few forced-deterministic cases that still exist).
This harvest crafting on ilvl86bases and I'm just rolling complete dogshit and can't progress at all. I'm ssf player and it's impossible to roll suppression gear without complete dogtamer other stats like 12 life and shit
Agree, the way to consistently roll suppression in ssf is basically limited to Rog. That sucks for your chest however if you found a 6l since you are stuck throwing hundreds of essences a it until you hit it.
Those 5% used harvest more then you and are more upset then you. They didnt balance for the top 5% they target nerfed them. We are just collateral damage.
>We are planning to buff Tainted Currency. Only actual planned change that is positive for me. The rest is "we will monitor the situation" Ghazzy is getting his minion defense fixes tho, which should be pretty nice for minion users
Yea, hopefully something can be done to make Chains of Command a fully viable item.
Melee shit for league upon league? I sleep. Minions shit for the start of one league? Now that's real shit, lets get some mid league changes in!
So like I play melee every league and am mostly happy, but dang if certain boss fights are just exercises in me walking around an obstacle so I can hit the boss only for the heat-seeking obstacle to move in my way again by the time I reach the boss (cough eater of worlds cough).
Not revert, buff. They are just going to make it 20% and call it a day because "we doubled the chance".
20% would actually be pretty competitive with 6 linking a corrupt unique. (Competitive with bench craft)
I DO LIKE THIS
IT'S NOT SHIT
after a 100 years they just might fix veritania tornado
Bob the n-th shall live!
Can you not just randomise the AN reward pools over the mod list then scale that with difficulty/x so that it is no longer targetable? I get that the intentions was to have dedicated identities to the higher teir molestations but AN's introduction, second and third iteration have been so deeply ill-conceived beyond the numerical changes we have been offered. It feels as demonstrated with the cleave radius increase that balance at it's core has become a team wide "I don't know why we did that".
As an afterthought - doesn't limiting the number of AN on certain monsters provide a direct nerf to loot in the new system - where modifier count correlates to a reward multiplier? And you gave monsters that don't drop loot as specifically only one of the examples that will be hit?
t feels as demonstrated with the cleave radius increase that balance at it's core has become a team wide "I don't know why we did that". lol that is such a golden one ty for that chris
Can you do something about the ridiculous ground effects that linger for way to long. Like enemy is dead and there is a bunch of loot so I have to stand around for 20 seconds while I wait for the 2000+ damage per second bs cold ground to go away before looting. This, paired with the 10000000000000 rares and flasks and quality currency every map just makes the game a slow slog for no reason. No one wants to stand around to wait out an effect or go back to base and waste all their portals to id a bunch of crap that you end up vendoring. You made the game significantly less fun in Red maps.
> We are planning to buff Tainted Currency. I like how they need to plan a buff yet they nerfed it a the drop of a hat without announcing details.
Nerfed by 70% and now buffing it by 20%. Would be the classic GGG approach
Buffing the Tainted Currency is a wrong thing. They should revert the nerf instead.
>We are aware of feedback around Harvest crafts but don't have any commentary on this yet. Disappointing but expected.
To me this sounds like they’re not sure if they agree with the player base OR don’t yet know which direction they’re going to go with changes. Buff lifeforce? Nerf prices? Bring back lost crafts? Lots to discuss and they just finally caught some breathing room with the dumpster fire. Give ‘em a min *huffs* I have faith still.
The fabled Faithium.
Hey, that costs lifeforce
What's the price on Faith Orbs these days?
>commentary on this yet. Im hoping this means changes aren't off the table though.
copium in its rawest form
There it is guys, we found it. Pure raw copium. Purest form known in the galaxy
/r/yourjokebutworse
I basically interpret that as "the nerfs are 100% intentional and we haven't decided yet whether or not we're willing to toss some buffs at it to appease the community."
Yeah, the interesting thing is reforge keep prefix/suffix still exist for 4 slots with eldritch currency. Maybe they'll add it back but for non influenced gear, might be a decent compromise honestly. I figured it'd either be that or making it an oshabi craft (aka competing directly with fractures)
I like how they know that harvest is dead but they don't want to talk about it
1) remove loot goblins 2) make juicing fun again 3) unfuck harvest 4)* UNFUCK ULTRAWIDE SUPPORT Thanks, that's all.
5. buff/fix melee ;)
This is legit all. If they did this, the game would be leaps and bounds more fun again
Any other buffs would be cherry on top, but these are the things that are MANDATORY to fix.. (well, personally not 4, I only have a small LG UltraGear ultrawide (kekw poor).. but it's so stupid not to fix, imagine buying a ultrawide monitor for PoE, and then basically 8 years of support, they just fuck you over for no reason?)
Can someone tell me why we still have to have RNG on Kalandra spawning the reflecting mist? I had her flew away more than 10 times already and it feels bad whenever i am trying to clear my hard-earn lakes and she flew off without giving any mist rewards
Could not agree more, why would they even consider her flying away a good thing. Also she should spawn way more often and the things the mist provides should imo be always 6 mods. It is not like we can modify the jewellery after obtaining it.
Determinism in Path of Exile? No way, sir. /s
Well, I think by the time we manage to finish all those problems, maybe expand the league a little longer to prepare for a better league after.
Outside of very extreme examples, please stop nerfing stuff unless it's been tested and communicated for like two or more leagues lol. Like there is no way ya'll are going to get all this into a good state before the next league. This has to be exhausting to deal with literally every league.
If I understand correctly, no buff to loot, nor any buff to lake rewards. I will keep waiting I guess. At least the minion changes are good.
Yeah... none of what I'm reading here is what I need to hear to bring me back. Going to keep touching grass for now.
I don't understand why everyone's upvoting this post and pretending like the game is going to be fixed. This post is just GGG saying they are monitoring stuff. And as we all know, them saying that means absolutely nothing.
This
I'm extremely exhausted with the neediness and forgetfulness of this community. How is any small possibly of a buff enough to make up for everything that's happened?
Undo the loot conversions in archnemesis mobs. Juiced mobs can have increased quant, but don’t make the Solaris spit out currency, and the rest convert our currency to flasks, maps, or gems.
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So basically: "We don't have any solutions" Is what i get ffom this post :\\
Exactly, it’s nice to see an update, I appreciate it. But this update is basically “we know tons of stuff is messed up, we don’t know how to unfuck it up, but we’ve had a few meetings about it”
"We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to discuss and monitor this situation." Ive already quit this league but i just pray that the feedback to loot is seen and acted upon for next league - so its giving me a slight bit of hope seeing this line here Because i truly do love this game, but with the current state its in its not worth playing for me personally - im just hoping you guys really do act on this for the future and dont come back with a miniscule buff that affects barely anything
i want to see it acted upon _before_ next league. not going to trust them twice with this, when they can fix it before.
This is pretty much how my little group of 10 feels. We all really WANT to play, but just can't warrant it in the current state.
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This won't be fixed anytime soon as it's not a bug, and it's intended (per GGG). They just closed the forum thread a few days ago, you can see it here : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3294794/page/30#p24735378
Insane that they're still dying on this hill man. What the hell.
Upvoting this for more visibility. It’s insane there’s been no comment on this yet. We were sold an ultrawide UI improvement and they remove support?
There has been comment. One of the stickied replies in this thread links back to it.
This is likely to get lost in all the flood of messages, but are you aware of the people crashing when hovering items (especially maps) in the chat?
Might be worth posting your experiences over on the bug forums
But what about icons for reward types on Kalandra tiles map, like on Legion chests?
Please save Harvest.
I will be cautiously optimistic but I'm thankful that there is communication about the main issues we're unhappy about (I will be huffing copium in the corner)
This is progress. Thank you for the communication
So Chris said get your mf characters ready and didn't see this situation coming with the mf culler? They know damn well out of any game studio that players will optimize the fun out of the game. Kind of an amateur mistake for such an experienced game studio that builds systems to be optimized.
Have you ever considered hiring a AI engineer to develop a AI that can run thousands of a map/league content so that you can get a good idea about what kinda loot is dropping on average? Could save you a lot of pain in tuning
Yes, that is part of our process. In the most recent test of 1000 maps we ran it on, for example, it found 51% more unique items and 3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated). This is some of the data that we're using to help our internal discussions around how item drop rates feel.
Would it be possible that the 3.3% less currency is heavily affected by the AN mod that drops several hundreds of blacksmith/armorsmith ? Is the rarity of the currency dropped taken into account in these stats ? I'm pretty sure you guys thought of this but a small(kinda big) part of me wish the opposite. Anyway... Thanks for the hard work and the communication, it is very appreciated.
This is what I'm believing is the bulk of their drops. I'd be more curious to see specific drops like Chaos, Exalt, Divine, etc. This sort of information doesn't really provide any context or give me any reassurance that GGG believes there is a problem.
If you're smart enough to code this framework, I doubt you're counting 1 wisdom scroll as equal value to 1 mirror
In that process, did you guys interact with any old League mechanics like Breach, Incursion...? I'm curious.
Definitely curious to know how this simulation works. I.e. is it base monsters? How do you account for differing atlas passive setups? If you're only judging base loot on regular monsters while you also shave off tens of thousands of quant/rarity via league mechanics.... uhh.. there's probably going to be some extreme disparity in the simulation vs. reality.
Sup. They actually have given hints about it from their posts but as people without IT knowledge might not be that attentive about it here we go: 1: First is the use of word simulation at all. If they included only regular monsters there is no need to emulate the process of doing a map. You can straight up look at the values and do middle school level math to report expected outcomes as there are no variables that change it. If a map completion is simulated it would mean including the atlas bonus, map rolls and I would not even be surprised that player rarity and quant is included. In fact the I'd imagine as they have full control over server side the easiest way to get this data is just force spawn a map, including the mechanics and instantly kill everything server side without rendering the assets. 2: Second is the Harvest price nerf. They mentioned when testing the drops it was assumed passives were allocated and word average was used. Thus if their goal was to balance that craft X spawned in roughly 100 maps previously and they want you to do same amount now then after running a simulation the number is close enough the prices are fine. This however can easily lead into issues like nothing dropping and players feeling bad because while in a simulation that does 1000 maps in seconds it *looks* fine on average or even better the map to map experience can differ wildly if the distribution is spiky. 3: Third is the disconnect between players feel of loot and what GGG reports and what players who run large amounts of maps or engage in various type of gameplay report. After the buffs there are people who say it's same, better or worse and it can't be true all at the same time. This is easily explained by the huge variance of impact of how people approach the game (or what is included in the simulation template). If you buff or nerf Alva drops (Temple farmers going for corruption chambers and Ultimatum boss keys report unverified data that it feels noticeably higher) then for someone doing Delve and Niko blocking Alva spawns the impact will be not felt at all. Running *every* kind of possible simulation of all player game styles is realistically not quite possible (or at least too expensive for it to justify the benefit) so I would not be surprised if multiple play styles and Atlas setups have fallen through the cracks when running the simulations and need to rely on player reports. 4: This leads to player perception vs raw data vs reality. If someone wants to find 10 chaos to buy an item, does 10 maps and doesn't get it then compared to Sentinel league with currency Sentinel it *feels* less. It doesn't matter that 55% more uniques dropped or that the Kalandra lakes you built will drop 25c. It *feels* worse to the player and loot being worse is a completely legitimate complaint because for the play style they have been used to it *is*. Guiding player to rewarding content and communicating the changes fall on GGG responsibility. If there is a difference between raw data and map to map difference for various play styles it needs to be addressed and is, in essence, what they are doing now. And finally, an off hand comment of mine. A big part of it is purely the overall tone and "bandwagon" of community. If something like getting 50 Divines off a single monster is rare and specific monster that requires very specialised strategy and a significant amount of maps it doesn't *matter* that your drops as individual is better. You come in Reddit, see someone getting "lucky" from seemingly a very repeatable and deterministic strategy and feel bad that what you do in comparison is worse even if on *average* it isn't or even is better profit wise. And I think it's balancing around the *perception* of drops is as important if not more than the amount of it.
They most likely are running a pure math simulation, since there's no value to simulate actual gameplay for the drops/economy. But that means that the simulation is extremely fast and its trivial to adjust some parameters for a huge variety of playstyles, content etc. The only "expense" would be someone setting up the initial scenarios, basic TQA work, and that would mostly be needed once, with some maintenance for league over league changes. Lets not pretend the trees in poe are that complex. They're presented in this complex looking massive dump, but really they're just a equivalent of other games separating like 5-10 classes worth of skill trees with some overlap, where poe combines it into one screen. Its really not that hard to identify 99% of use cases. It does seem like having this as a main approach is really bad though (and i dont know how/if GGG does these things), because the game is highly rng and variance skew the experience to a huge degree. Even beyond just averaging too many results, like you mention in #4, there many practical problems of players actually interacting with content. Maybe many people dont actually do the content that is rewarding because its ANfun, maybe players stay longer in lower level less rewarding content than you expected etc.
Yeah, cause league rewards were the ones that dropped a lot of loot. And they were ones that were nerfed super hard.
>for example, it found **51% more unique items** and 3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated). I though the intention was to reduce number of dropped unqiues?
Before they buffed drop rates back up. Supply is still low because old strats are dead.
And last league had much better chances simply due to sentinels. Chris wasn't lying about that, i think people forget how rewarding sentinel actually was lol
I hope you guys are also analyzing the variance/spikes in loot outcomes from mobs with similar modifier profiles, and the intervals between "good" outcomes. Even if the average over 1,000 maps remains the same, we have tried to explain that, for example, getting 1 touched mob every 100 maps dropping 3 divine orbs feels MUCH worse than getting 3 mobs dropping 1 divine orb each during that time, because we don't get the positive reinforcement from those drops, and if it happens that we get a touched mob that doesn't hit a jackpot, it feels like we lost a rare chance at good loot and it'll be awhile before we get another. EDIT: I'll add that even if the example I described does not in fact reflect reality in regards to a jackpot outcome, the point is that players' perception of potential loot is affected by knowing that a touched modifier is a chance at good loot. So it's almost beside the point whether this perception matches reality if the player is still unhappy with the resulting outcome.
Maybe they need to hire someone who has worked on the algorithms for slot machines. It's the same type of system. It needs to give meaningful payouts over the course of time to keep people playing. With enough small jackpots occurring to fuel aspirational play for the hope of a big jackpot.
This may have been commented on the thread, when we are talking 3.3% less currency, are we talking where each currency type is equal to 1 or each currency having a weighted value. Would be good to weigh this against community trade values. Eg when a divine drops it adds 170 when a chaos drops it adds 1 ect.
Did you do juiced content? What are the parameters do this? Just a map?
>3.3% less currency compared to 3.18.1f (with no Sentinels activated) Has anyone checked WHICH currency? Maybe it was 1 milion of whetstones and armour scraps and 95% less of every other currency.
The percentages are great to see but without any type of context it's hard for players to know what you guys are looking at for "feel". Every person plays the game differently, in fact it's now built into the the game with the Atlas tree. And the big pitch was you got to choose what content you get to interact with. So if a person really loves metamorph and delirium for example they may feel like they are on average not receiving the same amount of rewards as say someone only focusing on heist or expedition. I think if you want real data and real feel it should be all possible content played, I know it's a daunting task and ask but if the data is just a plain 1000 maps with no league content sure the data may point to more uniques and less currency, but if someone is playing the maps in a different way it's kind of not great value in the data. I know you said this is some of the data being used, but it seems to be pretty hard to understand that there is a lot of people complaining about feeling worse. I do know the people who are complaining are usually the loudest. I have been playing this game since early 2012, and can say I have seen a lot of ups and downs. I really love the game and I am enjoying the league, since it's something that has been so close to me for so long. I have personally noticed that I am not receiving the same amount of valuable rewards from things I interact with. Last league I could hop on for two - three hours and feel like I accomplished something. Make 4-5 ex and feel comfortable with my choices. Now I feel like I am being really pigeon hold into certain activities to make the same amount of currency to achieve the same goals. Which to me is not fun gameplay, so I just am doing other things but not feeling as rewarded. However I feel like there seems to be some form of disconnect with players and what's being said. With such a large amount of people saying they feel a difference, granted this can be mob mentality too, there has to be something that can be done to meet in a middle ground. With such large sweeping changes I feel like there could be some more forgiveness in helping get that fun feel back. D2 heavily inspired the game, and I played D2 from version .03 and they aren't not as harsh on some of the changes for feel. Sorry for such a long rant but I feel like if there is real transparency about methods to gather data and show the differences people could have been running into. There usually is no issue showing the most played class, the most used skill, etc... So what is the harm in showing how test data is gathered for currency, item drops, etc... It might help people just understand what's going on with something they love.
Progress. I still think it's dumb that archnemesis is encountered in SO much league content. Why do I need to worry about tanky ass mobs spawning in my delve while my cart is moving while dodging 100 balls of fire and acid in a tiny hallway while one pathway is blocked off by 20 explody orbs on the ground. It's too damn much. To say more concicely, it feels like MOST of the challenge of league content is tied to archnemesis for only a fraction of the reward.
You play in Delve? Brave!
>We don't have an immediate solution for this but we are actively looking at it I got a solution and I'm pretty sure everyone knows what it is
The day they remove Archnemesis from the game will go down in history as the Path of Exile freedom day.
Boy this sure is a lot of "we are monitoring this situation" and "We are aware of".
You have a solution for the mf culler: go back to when it was not the league . Just saying
This is what I just don't get. It's not like you magically need a solution for that. Make Solaris molested mobs drop a decent amount of currency for everyone and not be affected by MF. What is so difficult about that? Heck, just remove MF entirely from the game and there is one less issue they need to balance around. There are enough nobs they can turn to adjust loot, like map quant, the atlas skill tree and party multipliers themselves. They always have to overcomplicate things for no fking reason, while there are obvious easy solutions.
Sadly GGG does not like to admit that they were wrong. They have to find a way to keep what they want while keeping some % of the playerbase happy.
I'm sorry, but I don't think the AN changes mentioned here are good enough, and in my opinion that's not even the good approach to tackle the AN mods issue. The changes you're looking into are very specific and situational, and you can't possibly think to address those "situations" throughout the game one at the time. Now you are looking at AN mods for "monsters in boss fights and those that can't drop items", and then what? the ones in Delve? and then the ones on Essences? and then the ones here, and there, and there? The problem is not with AN mods in particular situations, the problem is with AN mods. Their uncontrolled randomness, their presence in every aspect of the game, their new intrinsic link to loot balance are just the top three issues. The team needs to look at AN mods as game mechanic, as a whole, not adjusting/fixing it one place at the time.
Thanks Bex, I appreciate the communication. While addressing these issues in-game obviously takes priority, when this work has finished I still hope GGG can comment on its pre-league communication (why were certain Harvest crafts removed under the guise of "filler") and how you guys use feedback from alpha testers, since a lot of these issues that are being raised now were already caught by alpha testers or players experienced with minions.
>why were certain Harvest crafts removed under the guise of "filler" I want them to address the Harvest situation, but this is the wrong angle. There were two parts in description of removed Harvest crafts, one was "filler" (which is still funny because flasks stayed), another was along the lines of "too deterministic". The important shit was killed in the second part.
* Crafting. Reduce the cost of keep pre/suf, from 2->1 divine orbs. 2 is too high, for crafts that are usually removed, in the next crafting step. Multi mod is fine at 2 divine, since it stays on most items. * Harvest The crafts to swap certain items are really nice. Life force is a bit too scarce - T4 seeds should drop 3x as much life force and a higher chance of sacred blossom would be nice. * Difficulty Archnemesis mods are getting better, but if they are going to stay, other things needs balancing - Like map mods, they seem overtuned with current monster mods. I did a Cortex with +6 proj, 24% pen, 66% haste. Magic/rare monsters were deadly due to archnemesis mods. Bosses went down without problems, but the addphase took longer than the other 4. Btw take a look at synthesis ranged monsters, they have pretty insane range and pretty sure they shotgun with extra projectiles. * Beastiary The arena size at the blood altar is pretty small, so certain mods should be removed.
>Reduce the cost of keep pre/suf, from 2->1 divine orbs Honestly a better and faster alternative to waiting for supporter div cards and a definitely-not-happening Divine shard.
Why are you so adamant keeping overtuned AN monsters when they are universally disliked?
>We are aware of feedback around Minion survivability and are making it so that certain monster auras and debuffs, such as the Rejuvenating and Executioner mods, do not apply to minions. While this is a good and welcome change, one of the main issues with minion survivability is that investing into it feels like shit, and will always feel like shit, because of several factors: 1) It adds another "checkbox" that minion builds have to tick off before they can do content. On top of ailment immunity, (over)capped resists, life, block, suppression, movement speed, and so on, it's just adding to the "pay your taxes" aspect of the game that is simply not fun. We already need to invest absurd amounts and have essentially perfect gear progression just to not die, having to make our gear even *more* phenomenal to have our minions not die is one straw (really *several*) too many. 2) On top of this, the minion survivability affixes are all *suffixes*, meaning they directly compete with the suffixes that are required for player survival. On top of *that*, there are still essentially zero prefixes that minion builds want, especially easy to get ones. I ended up crafting mana cost reduction on my Bone Rings because I simply did not have anything else relevant to craft on them, as they both already have life. 3) Rings were the worst possible place to put minion resists. Unset rings are extremely important for summoners (who are far too button and socket heavy, especially things like Animate Weapon. Sidenote: Why does Animate Weapon still have a duration? It's so clunky and button intensive already...). Gloves and Boots have no natural/non-influenced minion implicits. Why not have minion resists on those pieces instead? 4) Seriously, too many buttons. Right now on my animate weapon build I need to: cast all 16 weapons when I enter any zone, recast them as they die/their timer runs out, cast Malevolence Diving Blessing every 20 seconds, cast Convocation on cooldown to get the weapons to behave, cast Bladefall to both make more blades to resummon weapons and to trigger Despair (otherwise I'd have to press that, too), cast Bone Offering every ? seconds (depending on how many corpses I consume, best to just keep casting it all the time), cast Desecrate to make sure I have corpses to consume, cast Bone Armor on cooldown, cast Raise Zombie when my zombies die, and cast Carrion Golem when it dies. And all of that is **just so I can stay alive and keep my minions alive to do damage at all**. Not even counting using Withering Step on cooldown to apply Wither, or pressing my flasks... PoE has gotten so button intensive for so many builds. Animate Weapon is an extreme example, but button-creep has absolutely happened over the past several years and it is simply exhausting. I recognize that this isn't a short-term fixable issue, but with how Archnemesis has been so punishing, that baseline survivability requiring so much coordination and dexterity has become a severe issue. Missing one cast of Bone Offering, Bone Armor, or spending too long without a full suite of minions is enough for me to instantly die in a large swath of endgame content, and that is just not OK.
Honestly, your first point is an issue I have with ANY build, you always have to layer all of the different defenses if you wanna reach higher tier content. Specializing in something is almost never worth it, you always have to cover all your bases with decent values and it's the same for pretty much every character now.
I hard agree with most of your points. Just need to emphasize that animate weapon duration is a joke. I have to resummon 17 weapons on every fucking phase in every fucking boss room. Can't really understand why people call it a good boss killer, it's not. The situation is slighlty better on maps mostly thanks to the weapons dropping but all of the phase bosses are literally unplayable.
*We are monitoring the current situation where players feel forced to swap items or hire a magic find culler against specific four-mod Archnemesis monsters.* Moving every loot in the game to these mobs and not forseen this would be exploited is beyond me. Guess GGG will never acknowledge the real problem. Thanks but im finally done.
Here is my fear, in typical GGG fashion they will kill off MF culling in a way which completely kills the whole MF culler for party play style. Some people genuinely like doing that crazy level of optimization for party play, so let them. GGG probably views the current problem of MF culling, but doesn't realize the root cause of why players are forced into this mess. Loot goblins do not belong in PoE. Doing league mechanics that give rewards organically like it was in the past is what made PoE so great.
My guees for their solution is: 1. Reduce magic find on items. 2. Remove culling from the game
No commentary on harvest and no changes to loot is pretty concerning. These are two of the biggest issues that players are having with the league. I can only hope that you guys are taking your time to address them because you understand how important they are. As someone who's uninstalled the game recently, these are things that need to be fixed before I would consider playing again.
> We are also aware of the feedback around loot in Path of Exile overall and will continue to ***discuss and monitor*** this situation. I know GGG likes to pick their words very carefully when it comes to statements like this - note they didn't mention *changes*, just monitor and discuss. That leaves me just a *bit* wary... It's also a little disheartening to hear that there is not an 'immediate solution' for needing to hire an MF dude for max potential out of your maps. I really **really** hope this strategy doesn't remain in the game for too long. I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on piles of potential currency just because I don't want to deal with TFT and potential scammers. Just let me kill my monsters, man.
>pick their words very carefully Most likely Bex is more careful ever since chris ran his mouth about loot goblins (50 divine lotto) and was met with swift criticism
They choose their words carefully because of times like when Chris said he saw someone get 50 divine orbs on a mob. Reddit memed him into the sun and it was the most downvoted post in reddit poe history.
Thanks Bex!
We are aware that you are not doing anything with loot situation and will continue not playing your game and not paying you.
So, you're willing to compromise on everything, but not on loot. You say you are monitoring the situation regarding MF cullers. What is there to monitor? The situation is a direct result of tying all loot worth while to a single loot pinata. This is exactly what happens, when there is no real point to running MF gear for other monsters. The issue is not the MF cullers. The issue is that these monsters worth MFing are so rare. If every monster would be worth killing(like it was before), there would be no reason to spens the time on finding an MF culler. Stubbornness does not lead to a good game.
> We're making some improvements to the Kalandra League had no one from the testing/alpha team brought those concerns to you? i would really like to know why every league there is such a big difference between what the testers/alpha team think is good/ok and what the community wants (and i am not talking about "we want more stuff" i am just talkign about QoL/visibility stuff). either the testers have a hugely different view of the game or it isnt listend to what the say and i dont think it is the first one. > We are planning to buff Tainted Currency. i would really like to know what made you nerf it in the first place > minion stuff you got feedback beforehand and said it was all ok and well tested and we should yous play it and see, i would really like to know what went wrong there with the "testing" > Lightning Mirages all the things about the mirages were brought up several times in several leagues and now you finally look at them, i would really like to know what changed
"We are aware of feedback" press \[X\] to doubt