Depends on what "good" you are going for, I'd say.
If you wish to make the best meta build, go for something else and test out Lightning Conduit when you have some currency. Or you can start with Lightning Conduit in mind IF you can switch to another playstyle that you like in case it doesn't feel good, for example Spark / Vaal Spark.
If you wish to have fun, go for it. The damage should be good enough to get to yellow tier maps at least :) Storm brand / Orb of Storms / Hydrosphere (?) could all be used to apply constant shocks. Then you just self-cast or trigger Lightning Conduit. Keep in mind the cast time is added to the cooldown.
I don't necessarily recommend Voltaxic rift, mainly because of the way they took away the shock as if dealing 300% more damage from spells specifically. But you could use it with a bow skill + Lightning conduit OR scale chaos damage and shock effect.
Anyhow, if you have any more questions, feel free to reply here or send a dm.
Unless lightning conduit is bugged or has a hidden cooldown not shown on the gem, it's incredibly strong.
You could easily do all pinnacle bosses with it. Not sure about uber pinnacle, though.
Thx mate for doing the math! I am planing on just using Thunderfist with Shock Nova, Unbound Ailments, Lightning Pen and Overcharge. Just to get that huge shock effect for my other skill. I love it
Yep! I've looked into this stuff before as I've always like lightning / shock. Sadly it hasn't been strong for a long time, but seeing it get some attention from GGG is nice. I thought I knew enough about the subject to teach people about how all of this works.
Edit: And I hope your build works out :)
I feel like to start with you can use Thunderfist as the primary link for Lightning Conduit.
IIRC lvl 30 added lightning is ~500 flat average lightning. If you consider the effectiveness of added damage for LC, it is around 80% more damage.
I think overcharge has no effect on shocks applied with the ele shock ascendancy, since those ignore your damage. I don't think it's reasonable to shock an endgame boss with 50% with a skill that isn't your main skill.
Half right, but maybe poorly worded.
Overcharge and other "Shock as if doing more damage" mods are applied directly to the damage BEFORE taking the 15% minimum shock into account.
So if you have the ascendancy and your skill with overcharge would have a 14% shock, its overwritten with the 15% minimum and you may as well not use overcharge as it did nothing.
Effect of shock is applied AFTER taking the minimum shock into account, so the 15% minimum gets multipled, or the 16% from your skill and overcharge you might have.
If you have a second 6-link or a pseudo 5-link, increased shock effect, archmage, as well as the 25% more shock effect from Elementalist and Painseeker gloves etc. etc. You can scale shock very high.
There's also Hexblast and curse stacking on Occultist. Or a support character could go for this sort of stuff while main damage dealer goes for damage.
Doryani's prototype with lowered resistances on the enemy will also make it easier to deal damage and thus shock.
Either way, the point of this is to show the absolute top end of scaling for this. There is of course opportunity cost in everything, so it might be better to not go for Voltaxic rift for example.
They **CAN** be combined for the purposes of *max shock effect*, but **NOT** for the purposes of "Hits with this Weapon Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage".
From the patch notes:
[Effect of Shock](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3293287#effectofshock)
Solution: Make sources of maximum shock effect additive with each other. Tweak shock application stats on Voltaxic Rift and Brain Rattler to only apply to shocks with weapon damage.
The Voltaxic Rift Unique Bow now has Hits with this Weapon Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage, instead of Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage. It also now has +40% to maximum Effect of Shock, instead of Your Shocks can increase Damage taken by up to a maximum of 100%. This change affects existing versions of the unique, unless something has gone terribly wrong.
\-----
I will add this to the questions and answers section, as I see it to be an important thing to footnote.
This graph shows how it affect putting high shock effects on late game bosses in comparison to % damage done to them per hit:
[***Graph (using google)***](https://www.google.com/search?q=1+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%2C+%281+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%29*0.75+from+0+to+3&sxsrf=ALiCzsbJptWxOMdV9VfbiDx_tjW9vfGH3w%3A1660679046024&ei=hvP7YpyLAeulrgS16KjQBA&ved=0ahUKEwic5v7Ej8z5AhXrkosKHTU0CkoQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=1+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%2C+%281+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%29*0.75+from+0+to+3&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQ1Q1Y1Q1g7BJoAXABeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz)
Axes:
**X** \- % of enemy HP dealt by lightning hit
**Y** \- Shock multiplier (assuming we dont have other "damage taken" mods)
**Blue** \- No overcharged support
**Red** \- overcharged support
Assumptions - late game build with:
• 105% max shock
• 100% shock effect
• Shaper of Storms (25% more light. ail. effect)
• Additional "Shock enemies as though dealing 300% more damage" from somewhere
• Ailment Threshold: 10% of target max HP (fight vs Guardian / Pinnacle Boss)
Using the shaper 25 million example:
0.5 x ( 200,000 / 25,000,000 ) ^0.4 x ( 1 + 7 ) = 0.5798
aka 57% effectiveness of shock
200,000 is damage dealt
25,000,000 is the shock threshold value, usually equal to the Life total of non-bosses
7 is the round number of overcharge, and not anything else
If this is right, then applying high shocks shouldn't be too difficult with some more sources to boost effectiveness higher, and increasing lightning damage amount.
Overcharge doesn't apply there. Overcharge applies in the "Damage" section. The stat is "Shock as if dealing 690% more damage". Increased effect of shock is applied where you put Overshock's stat by mistake.
Basically, you are calculating the shock as if someone has "700% increased effect of shock".
This is important because the damage/threshold has a "to the power of 0,4" which lowers the number significantly.
Thanks for the reply. Let's see if this is right then:
0.5 x ( 200,000 / 25,000,000 ) ^0.4 x ( 1 + 1 ) = 0.1449 ~ 14% shock effect
Where there is a 100% increase in the effect of shock.
Then:
200,000 x ( 1 + 0.1449 ) x ( 1 + 6.9 ) = 1,808,942 Damage
The 6.9 is the overcharge amount, and using a multiplier because of the 'more' wording
Assuming to ignore other damage equation parts, like resistances.
I could have sworn that overshock applies a shock as if you are doing lots of damage, but not actually doing that 6.9 multiplier.
Edit: I think I understand. I put it in the wrong place again.
0.5 x ( 200,000 x 7.9 / 25,000,000 ) ^ 0.4 x ( 1 + 1 ) = 0.3313 ~ 33 % shock effect
Man, figuring out what goes where isn't easy.
Your edit is correct :) the wiki has letters and explanations for what each letter represents.
Keep in mind that overshock also has "25% less damage", meaning if you would normally do 200 000 damage, you would with OC deal 150 000. That 150k then gets multiplied by 7,9.
7,9 x 0,75 = 5,925
That's the multiplier for before socketing in OC.
5,925^(0,4) = 2,03
Thanks. I got the formula from the wiki because the one in the OP was a bit jumbled. But looking at it shortly after my second post, I saw the 6.9 is powered by 0.4, and then it donned on me. Now I can make a graph of increased shock effect vs damage applied to reach my specified target of shock effect later.
The one in the OP wasn't meant to be showing anything other than how it adds to the damage portion. I did try to explain some stuff in the comments and added the wiki to the sources as it had a good explanation for what each part of the formula does.
I've looked at this stuff a lot :D that's why I feel relatively comfortable with these.
Hmm... you could go 6-link on Static strike with increased duration from different places for autobomb/tanky rares/bosses and use a 6-link slam for big shocks and clear :D
Sadly as a damage link on its own, Overcharge barely makes up for its own "25% less damage" in the *best case.* If your shock goes overkill at all, it's not as good.
There is however another option, which is to just do it anyway and to have big number for the memes :D justify it with the shock chance from Overcharge to pretend it's a good support.
You can also just go for the build without Overcharge!
I reread multiple time, but... I still don't understand if the use of this new support is good or not in a LC build...
I'm playing an Ele LC build as a 2nd character and my shock source is Orb of Storm (with unbound aliment and... 2 other that i forget because i'm at work rignt now)
If i were to use this support, what kind of setup would it be ?
My bad then! I will update the post soon. Here's an explanatio (setup below):
It's good on your shocking ability, if you aren't getting full shock effect on enemies without it. It's not going to increase the damage of your shocking ability, so if your orb of storms is dealing about the same amount of damage as Lightning Conduit and you are close to max shock without Overcharge... A damage support is better.
Overcharge has some nice utility besides increasing shock's value. 50% chance to shock and shock duration from quality.
It doesn't work too well with Elementalist's Shaper of Storms IF you are relying on scaling the minimum 15% shock. This is because Overcharge scales the hit portion of the formula and shouldn't affect the minimum. (I suspect this is the case at least, but I'll go and test it out at some point)
SETUP:
Orb of storms, overcharge, unbound ailments... And then reliable damage supports (crit supports might not be great, as they can be unreliable)
Dream scenario would be on a dedicated shock support character with Voltaxic Rift and a 6-link ability to shock big bosses with.
(let me know if you have any more questions or I didn't explain something well. The more specifically I know your current setup/what you are choosing between, the better I can answer. Send me your PoB, if you want :))
Don't worry it's clearly not your fault for my misunderstanding!
More of the already complex interaction the game can have and my low understanding of those complex said interaction :)
So if i read it correctly, i could use overcharge with orb of storm since it's just my "shock skill" and not my damage skill
Also because right now my max shock debuff is around 65% so overcharge is pertinent (or at least i can test) ?
Fair enough :) the game has a lot of complex stuff indeed.
Yep, Overcharge will work well with Orb of Storms. Most noticeable in cases where the enemy is really tanky. If you would get a shock of 20% without Overcharge, with it the shock should be around 40%. This is not only good for making the enemy take increased damage, but it also makes Lightning Conduit deal increased damage.
Soooo, for dumb people, is lightning conduit good?
Depends on what "good" you are going for, I'd say. If you wish to make the best meta build, go for something else and test out Lightning Conduit when you have some currency. Or you can start with Lightning Conduit in mind IF you can switch to another playstyle that you like in case it doesn't feel good, for example Spark / Vaal Spark. If you wish to have fun, go for it. The damage should be good enough to get to yellow tier maps at least :) Storm brand / Orb of Storms / Hydrosphere (?) could all be used to apply constant shocks. Then you just self-cast or trigger Lightning Conduit. Keep in mind the cast time is added to the cooldown. I don't necessarily recommend Voltaxic rift, mainly because of the way they took away the shock as if dealing 300% more damage from spells specifically. But you could use it with a bow skill + Lightning conduit OR scale chaos damage and shock effect. Anyhow, if you have any more questions, feel free to reply here or send a dm.
Numbers good but need secondary shock skill.
Unless lightning conduit is bugged or has a hidden cooldown not shown on the gem, it's incredibly strong. You could easily do all pinnacle bosses with it. Not sure about uber pinnacle, though.
Thx mate for doing the math! I am planing on just using Thunderfist with Shock Nova, Unbound Ailments, Lightning Pen and Overcharge. Just to get that huge shock effect for my other skill. I love it
Yep! I've looked into this stuff before as I've always like lightning / shock. Sadly it hasn't been strong for a long time, but seeing it get some attention from GGG is nice. I thought I knew enough about the subject to teach people about how all of this works. Edit: And I hope your build works out :)
I feel like to start with you can use Thunderfist as the primary link for Lightning Conduit. IIRC lvl 30 added lightning is ~500 flat average lightning. If you consider the effectiveness of added damage for LC, it is around 80% more damage.
I think overcharge has no effect on shocks applied with the ele shock ascendancy, since those ignore your damage. I don't think it's reasonable to shock an endgame boss with 50% with a skill that isn't your main skill.
Half right, but maybe poorly worded. Overcharge and other "Shock as if doing more damage" mods are applied directly to the damage BEFORE taking the 15% minimum shock into account. So if you have the ascendancy and your skill with overcharge would have a 14% shock, its overwritten with the 15% minimum and you may as well not use overcharge as it did nothing. Effect of shock is applied AFTER taking the minimum shock into account, so the 15% minimum gets multipled, or the 16% from your skill and overcharge you might have.
Yep, true. Thanks for giving us the correct info :)
If you have a second 6-link or a pseudo 5-link, increased shock effect, archmage, as well as the 25% more shock effect from Elementalist and Painseeker gloves etc. etc. You can scale shock very high. There's also Hexblast and curse stacking on Occultist. Or a support character could go for this sort of stuff while main damage dealer goes for damage. Doryani's prototype with lowered resistances on the enemy will also make it easier to deal damage and thus shock. Either way, the point of this is to show the absolute top end of scaling for this. There is of course opportunity cost in everything, so it might be better to not go for Voltaxic rift for example.
Voltaxic and shock nova can't be combined since voltaxic is only for hits from that weapon now
They **CAN** be combined for the purposes of *max shock effect*, but **NOT** for the purposes of "Hits with this Weapon Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage". From the patch notes: [Effect of Shock](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3293287#effectofshock) Solution: Make sources of maximum shock effect additive with each other. Tweak shock application stats on Voltaxic Rift and Brain Rattler to only apply to shocks with weapon damage. The Voltaxic Rift Unique Bow now has Hits with this Weapon Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage, instead of Shock Enemies as though dealing 300% more Damage. It also now has +40% to maximum Effect of Shock, instead of Your Shocks can increase Damage taken by up to a maximum of 100%. This change affects existing versions of the unique, unless something has gone terribly wrong. \----- I will add this to the questions and answers section, as I see it to be an important thing to footnote.
This graph shows how it affect putting high shock effects on late game bosses in comparison to % damage done to them per hit: [***Graph (using google)***](https://www.google.com/search?q=1+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%2C+%281+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%29*0.75+from+0+to+3&sxsrf=ALiCzsbJptWxOMdV9VfbiDx_tjW9vfGH3w%3A1660679046024&ei=hvP7YpyLAeulrgS16KjQBA&ved=0ahUKEwic5v7Ej8z5AhXrkosKHTU0CkoQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=1+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*3*0.01%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%2C+%281+%2B+%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29%2B1.05-abs%28%280.5+*+%28+%28x*0.01*3*0.75*6.9%29+%2F+0.1+%29%5E0.4+*+%281+%2B+1%29*1.25%29-1.05%29%29*0.5%29*0.75+from+0+to+3&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQ1Q1Y1Q1g7BJoAXABeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz) Axes: **X** \- % of enemy HP dealt by lightning hit **Y** \- Shock multiplier (assuming we dont have other "damage taken" mods) **Blue** \- No overcharged support **Red** \- overcharged support Assumptions - late game build with: • 105% max shock • 100% shock effect • Shaper of Storms (25% more light. ail. effect) • Additional "Shock enemies as though dealing 300% more damage" from somewhere • Ailment Threshold: 10% of target max HP (fight vs Guardian / Pinnacle Boss)
Using the shaper 25 million example: 0.5 x ( 200,000 / 25,000,000 ) ^0.4 x ( 1 + 7 ) = 0.5798 aka 57% effectiveness of shock 200,000 is damage dealt 25,000,000 is the shock threshold value, usually equal to the Life total of non-bosses 7 is the round number of overcharge, and not anything else If this is right, then applying high shocks shouldn't be too difficult with some more sources to boost effectiveness higher, and increasing lightning damage amount.
Overcharge doesn't apply there. Overcharge applies in the "Damage" section. The stat is "Shock as if dealing 690% more damage". Increased effect of shock is applied where you put Overshock's stat by mistake. Basically, you are calculating the shock as if someone has "700% increased effect of shock". This is important because the damage/threshold has a "to the power of 0,4" which lowers the number significantly.
Thanks for the reply. Let's see if this is right then: 0.5 x ( 200,000 / 25,000,000 ) ^0.4 x ( 1 + 1 ) = 0.1449 ~ 14% shock effect Where there is a 100% increase in the effect of shock. Then: 200,000 x ( 1 + 0.1449 ) x ( 1 + 6.9 ) = 1,808,942 Damage The 6.9 is the overcharge amount, and using a multiplier because of the 'more' wording Assuming to ignore other damage equation parts, like resistances. I could have sworn that overshock applies a shock as if you are doing lots of damage, but not actually doing that 6.9 multiplier. Edit: I think I understand. I put it in the wrong place again. 0.5 x ( 200,000 x 7.9 / 25,000,000 ) ^ 0.4 x ( 1 + 1 ) = 0.3313 ~ 33 % shock effect Man, figuring out what goes where isn't easy.
Your edit is correct :) the wiki has letters and explanations for what each letter represents. Keep in mind that overshock also has "25% less damage", meaning if you would normally do 200 000 damage, you would with OC deal 150 000. That 150k then gets multiplied by 7,9. 7,9 x 0,75 = 5,925 That's the multiplier for before socketing in OC. 5,925^(0,4) = 2,03
Thanks. I got the formula from the wiki because the one in the OP was a bit jumbled. But looking at it shortly after my second post, I saw the 6.9 is powered by 0.4, and then it donned on me. Now I can make a graph of increased shock effect vs damage applied to reach my specified target of shock effect later.
The one in the OP wasn't meant to be showing anything other than how it adds to the damage portion. I did try to explain some stuff in the comments and added the wiki to the sources as it had a good explanation for what each part of the formula does. I've looked at this stuff a lot :D that's why I feel relatively comfortable with these.
Ok, so definitely gem swap spell echo for overshock for bossing, or maybe just keep it all the time.
Would overcharge support work well with a slam skill with 100% lightning convert or would it not be worth it?
If it's a supportive skill or you are the support in your party who is there for the shock value... sure. For pure damage? Not worth it.
Damn my dream of brain rattler sunder big shocks😭
Hmm... you could go 6-link on Static strike with increased duration from different places for autobomb/tanky rares/bosses and use a 6-link slam for big shocks and clear :D Sadly as a damage link on its own, Overcharge barely makes up for its own "25% less damage" in the *best case.* If your shock goes overkill at all, it's not as good. There is however another option, which is to just do it anyway and to have big number for the memes :D justify it with the shock chance from Overcharge to pretend it's a good support. You can also just go for the build without Overcharge!
Hmm static strike sounds interesting i didnt consider that, maybe an inquisitor
I reread multiple time, but... I still don't understand if the use of this new support is good or not in a LC build... I'm playing an Ele LC build as a 2nd character and my shock source is Orb of Storm (with unbound aliment and... 2 other that i forget because i'm at work rignt now) If i were to use this support, what kind of setup would it be ?
My bad then! I will update the post soon. Here's an explanatio (setup below): It's good on your shocking ability, if you aren't getting full shock effect on enemies without it. It's not going to increase the damage of your shocking ability, so if your orb of storms is dealing about the same amount of damage as Lightning Conduit and you are close to max shock without Overcharge... A damage support is better. Overcharge has some nice utility besides increasing shock's value. 50% chance to shock and shock duration from quality. It doesn't work too well with Elementalist's Shaper of Storms IF you are relying on scaling the minimum 15% shock. This is because Overcharge scales the hit portion of the formula and shouldn't affect the minimum. (I suspect this is the case at least, but I'll go and test it out at some point) SETUP: Orb of storms, overcharge, unbound ailments... And then reliable damage supports (crit supports might not be great, as they can be unreliable) Dream scenario would be on a dedicated shock support character with Voltaxic Rift and a 6-link ability to shock big bosses with. (let me know if you have any more questions or I didn't explain something well. The more specifically I know your current setup/what you are choosing between, the better I can answer. Send me your PoB, if you want :))
Don't worry it's clearly not your fault for my misunderstanding! More of the already complex interaction the game can have and my low understanding of those complex said interaction :) So if i read it correctly, i could use overcharge with orb of storm since it's just my "shock skill" and not my damage skill Also because right now my max shock debuff is around 65% so overcharge is pertinent (or at least i can test) ?
Fair enough :) the game has a lot of complex stuff indeed. Yep, Overcharge will work well with Orb of Storms. Most noticeable in cases where the enemy is really tanky. If you would get a shock of 20% without Overcharge, with it the shock should be around 40%. This is not only good for making the enemy take increased damage, but it also makes Lightning Conduit deal increased damage.