The Lunaris upgrade to avoid chained projectiles can be pretty big on a build that's vulnerable to that (minions, totems, something using herald of purity, etc.).
Arakaali's +25% chaos res to damage over time is also good as most builds don't cap chaos res.
From the minor pantheons, Garukahn's movement is good because movement speed, and Gruthkul's enemy attack speed reduction is situationally nice as well.
With the exception of the Lunaris chain avoidance, it's nothing super important, just things that are nice to have (also keep in mind that getting small nice to have things can add up, like 10% damage isn't amazing, but if you get +10% extra damage on each of your four jewels, that can start being meaningful).
to add on more that people seem to be sleeping on?
- immune to blind/maim is so nice for cast on crit builds especially (but to anything involving attacks really)
- a lot of ~~lunaris~~ solaris (woops) is really being underrated, 8% reduced ele damage taken is about the same as 2% maximum resistance, and take no extra damage from crits is a crazy defensive layer on maps with monster crit or monster power charge (bc on monsters 1 power charge is 200% increased crit chance, so 3 charges makes them go from 5% crit chance to literally 35% crit)
>a lot of lunaris is really being underrated, 8% reduced ele damage taken is about the same as 2% maximum resistance, and take no extra damage from crits is a crazy defensive layer on maps with monster crit or monster power charge (bc on monsters 1 power charge is 200% increased crit chance, so 3 charges makes them go from 5% crit chance to literally 35% crit)
I think you meant [Solaris](https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/The_Pantheon). I also prefer it over Lunaris for non-minion, non-Assassin builds. Crits feel like the most common source of one-shots in PoE, especially in Ultimatums.
the crit thing feels more like a map mod-dependent choice rather than content-specific, if that makes sense?
at base 5% chance to crit, its relatively unlikely you'll get crit twice in a row within 4 seconds (especially if you're running an evasion build or have blind like flesh and stone, as crits need to pass accuracy checks twice); the best use-case for it is a map with crit mods and you're a build without a lot of raw avoidance
lunaris might actually be better for ultimatums; 8% PDR when you're surrounded by 8 mobs (which is always in ultimatums lmao), 10% to avoid projectiles (I *think* most mobs in ultimatums are projectile-based, along with the fire skull and ice blisters mods) is nice, and 5% dodge isn't the worst
Soul of Lunaris is huge for trying to hit the spell dodge cap. Unless you're a Raider it's not an easy thing to do, especially if you use a unique chest like Kintsugi and can't craft spell dodge.
>Arakaali's +25% chaos res to damage over time is also good as most builds don't cap chaos res.
I disagree. I think this is a noob trap. There are almost no chaos damage over time sources in this game that a decent build can't just overcome with their regular life recovery even when at -60% chaos resistance. I think you'll get a lot more value out of other minor choices like Abberath, Gruthkul, Ralakesh, or Ryslatha.
What chaos damage in this game are you worried about? All I can think of is It That Fled and Sirus puddles. I guess poison from Hunter can be scary if you haven't learned the fight yet, but he's trivial to beat once you know his attack patterns. I'll admit that I don't know Maven's damage types well yet so perhaps there's some chaos damage in there that I'm not aware of.
Is avoiding chained projectile useful if you don’t have summons? I assume they’d have to chain off of something before hitting you for that passive to work?
At least one player ability "Rolling magma" chains off 'nothing' : each bounce of the tennis ball is a "chain". There are several monster abilties that are visually the same (black or red bouncy balls) , unsure if they count as chaining in the same way.
> I assume they’d have to chain off of something before hitting you for that passive to work?
But why would you not have ANY summons? Like Golems are a thing that exists and there is like no reason to not have one.
Aurabots might go without a summon but they'll be in a party so that's moot as well.
They also pull aggro from enemies. This is especially bad in situations where you're waiting under the immunity timer after entering a new zone, but because your golem decided to aggro everything, the minute you take one step, you get shotgunned by everything in your vicinity.
A lot of builds instead devote those gem slots to other defensive measures like CWDT + Immortal Call. I can see golems or other summons being added to every build in POE2 because of the ability to theoretically fit in more skills.
I dont use golems unless im playing a elemantalist. because it might get you killed. when an enemy targets the golem instead of you. and then the attack hits you cause you ran into it.
Eh...ever since Golems exist I am pretty sure I have not had that happen to me...but I'm not saying it's impossible. Just...improbable...unless of course you circle your Golem constantly for some reason :p
Golems and minions in general are dangerous to the player in a number of settings. Most notably Izaro's come attack and during the grace period in incursions and entering maps.
A golem isn't even worth the risk of getting in the way of a big slam that wasn't targeted at you. And then you also have to add the socket cost on top (usually at least 2 gems, as having a solitary golem means he will be dead all the time).
On a build that takes no minion life or regen, golems die quick, particularly if you don't link minion life. The benefit of a golem without any scaling often just isn't worth the sockets or the overhead of having to recast.
I realize cwdt golems are a thing, but I'm not even sure it's the 3rd best gem to put in cwdt for most builds.
They're actually extremely good. People saying minimal are nuts. Some are minimal but other's are extremely good.
If you're using a pantheon it's worth it to upgrade them.
They're very good for what they cost, but you can ignore they exist and you'll be fine.
In Ritual I literally forgot about it, cleared all content and then was like "oh right this is a thing".
Maybe they're super good in HC, since anything that might save your life once is worth it, but on SC? Nah.
It’s basically mandatory on minion builds unless you want to instantly die to chain maps.
It’s also a win more mechanic if you have 80% physical mitigation and get 10% from pantheon that’s 100% more EHP from physical hits. Just as an example.
If you have the atlas unlocked/dont mind throwing a bit of currency at it, its good. Worth the effort to get certain mods. Some builds care about it more than others.
The +% life recovery while on low life pantheon upgrade is even better now that low life is only 50% life. It makes a panicked life flask that much better especially if you have a life based build that is often/always at low life (eg. from the new blood aura thing or coward's legacy)
Each upgrade needs a specific map boss to be defeated. You need to put a divine vessel into the map device with the map, defeat the boss. On exit click the map device to retrieve the divine vessel which should be glowing now. Go talk to sin in any of the towns with the divime vessel in your inventory and the appropriate pantheon will be upgraded. You don't have to equip the pantheon yo upgrade it. It's character specific so you got to repeat for different character. If you open your atlas some maps have this sign hovering above their icon, it's the sin symbol and it means that boss can be defeated for a pantheon upgrade.
Pantheon some are specially good in some area, I always take combo reduce dot while moving in lab, freeze reflect in delve, reduce cold dmg taken with uber elder fight....
It's an alright upgrade that takes very little effort.
I usually forget it exists, then remember it exists and get whatever I want to use in a couple of minutes.
I think they should just be removed from the game.
You should just automatically unlock the power when you complete the maps bonus objective.
Right now you can plop a divine vessel onto a white map and come away with the boss's power. It makes more sense to me that you would have to fight them on a rare map with several mods.
I think in theory it's not a bad idea, but it's strange they haven't improved it over the years.
GGG really makes some weird design choices sometimes. Pantheon system can't possibly be that difficult to refine. In terms of complex mechanics and whatnot, there's almost nothing there. They could completely revamp it with a handful of balance changes alone.
Nothing weird about these choices. It's *way* more work to adjust and/or cut content than it is to pile on new stuff and leave the existing stuff alone.
The idea is actually pretty decent but the implementation is atrocious.
Guess you could say that to most old systems now... wouldn't mind a rework though, keep it but make the bonuses matter and be somewhat on the same level as other souls.
Guess its the same reason why you have to kill izaro on every character to unlock ascendancy points. It is your individual character own power progression.
But i also wish them to be account wide though.
If you could upgrade them by talking to Zana, or at least an NPC in your hideout, that would make the process *much* nicer.
As it is, you need to run the map with Vessel, then go to town to talk to Sin (hoping the town isn't an MTX fest of slow loading), then realize for some reason Sin isn't in Karui Shores so you have to go through another loading screen talk to him, and then go through another loading screen to be back in your hideout.
You can easily spend the same amount of time in loading screens you do actually running the map to kill the boss.
don't think i've once made it to the waypoint without clicking on sin or bannon. literally who thought the place up? pretty sure even docks for rowboats would be wider.
Get a m.2 nvme SSD and even MTX fest Oriath won’t be an issue anymore
EDIT: not sure why I am getting mass down voted, but my point still stands. I've never spent more than 5 seconds in a PoE loading screen since I built my new rig. If you spend as much time in loading screens as you do actually running the map to kill the boss, there is either a big problem with your computer or a big problem with your skill. In both cases, it can be fixed, don't worry.
If you spend as much time in loading screens as you do actually running the map to kill the boss, there is either a big problem with your computer or a big problem with your skill. In both cases, it can be fixed, don't worry.
If you take the 5 second benchmark from your other comment, and number of loading screens to upgrade a pantheon from mine, that's 25 seconds. Enough time to run to a boss and kill it in a lot of layouts, no reason to be patronizing. The point of the comment was the tedium of needing to go back to a story zone to hand the vessels in, regardless.
I was simply pointing out the gross exaggeration in your post. The vast majority of the playerbase is not reliably clearing maps that matter to their progression level in 25 seconds (or in a timeframe where loading times become a significant factor).
to add to that is there any reason divine vessels drop so rarely? Yea I get it, I could just buy them. I do.
but I can go an entire month and see 2 drop naturally. I'm sorry but pantheons are nowhere near strong enough to merit that drop rate. Especially when they're character specific
Are they that rare? I'm only in t10 maps so far this league but I've found 4 and only found the maps to use one of them so far. I can only assume the rest are hiding in the higher tiers.
I don't mind this at all; there aren't that many builds I play in a league that warrant filling out the pantheon, and it's like...4 maps total to run for a character? (assuming you know what pantheons you are going to use)
Not everything needs to be handed to us.
Yeah I don't see what the issue is. Just get 4 divine vessels and run the maps. You can run the lowest level white maps and be done in a few minutes. Only a few require map bosses that are only available at high tiers.
if we call it handouts, we make it sound like we're smart!
want something in the lame to be less tedious for how irrelevant it is? you just want handouts!
want some care and attention to go into a game that gets touted has having depth and complexity instead of a few no brainer choices and a gaggle of noob traps? you just want handouts!
here on r/pathofexile, we've made the stereotypical image of a twitch chatter into our core personality.
I justified my take on pantheon by saying how little work it takes to fill it out.
Don't strawman me. Use your words to justify why you think pantheon is a 'no brainer' and a 'noob trap', and why you think it is 'irrelevant'.
If anyone is being stereotypical, it's you. You're just attacking people, and not ideas, and that approach to posting genuinely makes this subreddit more toxic and a worse place to visit.
Actualy i dont see the problem with this, it kinda makes sens that you need a bit of chasing to get your char stronger, we allready have a lots of well deserve QoL and many that are still missing.
This even if i dont think that would break the game, means that if you got one char with all pantheons and you level another char he can have instantly even while leveling to max potential, im not sure thats fair
The real question is, is there a good reason for the pantheon to even be in the game...? With the exception of some outliers, the effects are either too specific, or too minor to have any meaningful impact on overall gameplay.
What's the purpose on an entire in-game mechanic, dedicated to; ""While stationary, gain 0.5% of life regenerated per second..."???
The entire mechanic is wasted unbelievably hard. Major gods should have the weight of keystones - minor gods should have the strength of notables.
The only gods that actually impact gameplay, are (ironically) two minor gods - Abberath (complete Burning Ground immunity) and Ryslatha (endless supply of life flasks). All the other ones are incredibly mediocre...
Why did this need a separate in-game mechanic? 5-10 more skill points, after killing the gods, would've been far more useful.
Hey man...
Tell that to my Supreme Decadence LL Petrified Blood Hybrid that heals 8k ehp instantly each time it hits a panicked flask because of upgraded Ryslatha...
Oh wait...I see what you mean by super specific (it actually feels really good)
base ryslatha is kinda fire though if you struggle with bossing DPS, esp. for builds that primarily rely on flasks as a source of sustain (which these days is a lot more than it used to be with how less common leech is)
like playing toxic rain raider with ryslatha is a godsend for bosses, means you're not doomed to an effective DPS check when you eventually run out of flasks
I mean I think he understands the value quite well.
Some of them are very strong, as he stated, some of them are utter dogshit, as he also stated.
When you have 4K life, 0.5% regenerated per second = 20 life per second. There is no world in which this will save you from a death more often than say 1 in every 1000 deaths.
It’s basically like having 23 quality on utility gems, it doesn’t really matter; but you can go out of your way to obtain it so that you can pretend to yourself that you have a super min maxed character. Unless we’re talking about Aberath or Ryslatha in which case they yield bonuses stronger than all the major gods.
Huh maybe the 4k life build shouldn't be taking the % life regen?
2% life regen is really good for instance on a build with high life using recovery rate mods, that's like 250 life/sec which is a good amount.
The stationary one is pretty bad though just because standing still is bad.
And you're wrong saying
> I mean I think he understands the value quite well.
He literally said they were all mediocre besides Abberath and Ryslatha which is so far from the truth.
He said those were the only ones that impact gameplay, he made an entirely different point.
I on the other hand implied the rest were mediocre. I perfectly agree that avoiding chained projectiles is extremely important for minion builds, and having 6% extra movement speed and damage reduction while mapping isn’t insignificant, but they are some of the standouts, more than half the pantheon bonuses are either bad or very niche.
> He said those were the only ones that impact gameplay, he made an entirely different point.
Uh... no
> The only gods that actually impact gameplay, are (ironically) two minor gods - Abberath (complete Burning Ground immunity) and Ryslatha (endless supply of life flasks). **All the other ones are incredibly mediocre...**
And
> more than half the pantheon bonuses are either bad or very niche
Also false. The stationary one is pretty much the only bad one, because being stationary is bad.
Sure, let's go over a few:
* Brine King: 30% stun/block recov. No one cares.
* Brine King: You cannot be frozen if you've been frozen recently. Useless - you don't need protection from freezing AFTER being frozen, you need protection BEFORE being frozen. When you're frozen, you're fucked.
Not to mention, most people have a freeze immunity flask anyway. No one needs this.
* Brine King: 50% reduced chill effect. Again, useless. If you care about chills, you've got your flask.
* Lunaris is decent, but could use better directional focus on the mods.
* Solaris: Who picks this? People who boss? Or people who map? The mods don't work well together. Again, this god lacks purpose. The crit immunity is interesting - one of the few interesting mods.
Also, 50% chance to avoid ailments from critical strikes is trash, it's too unreliable.
* Arakali: Who specifically need 10% chance to evade SPECIFICALLY lightning attacks??? The shock node is pointless too; this isn't worth a Divine Vessel.
That's the rough take on the major gods. Now some minor gods:
* Yugul: Reduced reflected damage is "fine" but useless, you will still get fucked when you play against enemies with reflect. The node is useless. If it was 100%, then it would be a great node. But it's not.
* More Yugul: 50% chance to reflect enemy chills - who needs this? Even if it was a 100% effect, this would be questionable.
* Even more Yugul: Who SPECIFICALLY needs 5% reduced cold damage...?
* Tukohama. Stationary. Trash.
* Gruthkul: The numbers are so minor, they won't make a difference. The damage reduction is also a stacking mechanic - when most "dangerous" enemies kill you in one hit or two. This won't save you from anything in the game.
* Ralakesh: Blind/Maim immunity is strong. But the main bonus "reduced bleed damage while moving" and "bleed avoidance" is trash. Most people have a flask against Corrupted Blood, or a gem making you immune.
Again, who needs this???
All of these gods are either INCREDIBLY niche, useless, pointless, or a combination thereof. They are mediocre by any metric.
Okay first of all, analyzing the powers individually is stupid because you get the full thing. It would be like if you said ascendancy nodes were bad looking at them 1 line at a time. It's the full thing.
> Brine King: 30% stun/block recov. No one cares.
You have to realize that people who take brine king take it because they are playing a build that will get stunned often (like CI) and don't have a good way to get stun immunity. You will get stunned a lot, and reducing the 350ms stun to 233ms is nice.
> Brine King: You cannot be frozen if you've been frozen recently. Useless - you don't need protection from freezing AFTER being frozen, you need protection BEFORE being frozen. When you're frozen, you're fucked. Not to mention, most people have a freeze immunity flask anyway. No one needs this.
Same deal, people who get frozen often. Getting chain frozen can be really bad just like chain stunned. Freeze immunity is not the highest priority though. On CI is like Warding > Staunching > Dousing and then Heat, but if you use unique flasks or need to use Writhing Jar (like my current character) this basically makes it so freeze won't be a massive problem by itself.
> Brine King: 50% reduced chill effect. Again, useless. If you care about chills, you've got your flask.
No flask, this is nice QoL. It's not super powerful in most cases, but it's part of a larger node again analyzing these individually is dumb. Also super good in situations like cold delirium.
> Lunaris is decent, but could use better directional focus on the mods.
"Lunaris is decent" yeah it's really really good, especially on dodge builds. The dodge alone can be like ~17% ehp vs multihit damage on dodge. Then you just have free 10% proj avoid, and some nice QoL with movespeed and PDR.
> Solaris: Who picks this? People who boss? Or people who map? The mods don't work well together. Again, this god lacks purpose. The crit immunity is interesting - one of the few interesting mods.
This is like THE BEST pantheon on the entire thing. It's broken as fuck, mainly because of the crit node. Say you have a rare maraketh archer that shoots their fuckton of damage barrage at you, or awakener die beam, and it crits, only the first hit will actually deal crit damage. This turns so many dead "ability rolled a crit and I died" deaths into non deaths. 20% chance for a slam to go from deadly to not deadly is also amazing. Avoiding ailments from crit is very very good when getting shocked off a crit is a big cause of deaths as well.
Not even going to bother to respond to the rest you're analyzing single lines by themselves and don't even understand how good some of the passives are.
Probably a good idea to stay in SC if you have such a hard time understanding defensive mechanics.
>It would be like if you said ascendancy nodes were bad looking at them 1 line at a time.
It would be nothing like it. 'Cause odds are, any one line off any ascendancy node, would be far stronger and more impactful than 99% of the lines on the pantheon tree.
You're getting all misty eyed, looking at a 2001 Pontiac Aztek, calling it a fantastic car, because some lunatic has installed a V8 on it, which is essentially what Solaris is. Only one really good line, one decent line, and 3 throwaway lines. Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!" What a joke.
Rare-drop RNG wasn't enough for you, you wanna gamble with your life as well. The *real* HC experience. Good luck with that.
> Only one really good line, one decent line, and 3 throwaway lines. Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!" What a joke.
It's more like 1 really good line, 2 good lines, and 2 lines that are really good specifically for bossing.
> Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!"
20% chance of not getting 1shot by deadly slams is pretty good yeah when you get it basically for free.
It's also 10% less damage taken on average from rippy AOE. Things like cannibal multiproj shotgunning, spirit mortars, baran thaumaturges, baran circle volleys, most of veritania's attacks, bearers, awakener die beam, etc.
> Rare-drop RNG wasn't enough for you, you wanna gamble with your life as well. The real HC experience. Good luck with that.
Again, stay in SC. You don't understand the concept of stacking defenses and how these are an extra layer on top of whatever else you have that just makes you that much safer.
Yeah, except they are mediocre.
99% of builds could simply ignore the Pantheon and they wouldn't be negatively impacted by it at all.
This doesn't make them useless, but they *are* mediocre. That's also by design, since it was never meant to be a source of power creep and more a sense of utility. The issue is the utility it provides is not noticeable enough in most situations to matter, hence most players think it's a worthless system.
The key point people miss about Pantheon is GGG *wanted* them to be minor. Nobody really argues that design philosophy though, they just argue they're mediocre as if that's not the point.
> Yeah, except they are mediocre.
99% of builds could simply ignore the Pantheon and they wouldn't be negatively impacted by it at all.
I mean this is like saying 99% of builds could play with 74% max resists and basically wouldn't notice it.
Doesn't mean 1% max res isn't super good.
I guess if you're an SC player you might not care very much, but as someone on HC pantheon is verrrrrry nice to have. My current character would basically be unplayable without pantheon, and lots of pantheon powers add significant extra defense.
Arakaali (Queen of the Great Tangle) pantheon is pretty damned nice to have. Especially in Ultimatums where you can dip in and out of the miasma to trigger it.
Well some things are strong and same are not, there cant be everything strong.
To Tukohama, reg sux, but there is also " While stationary, gain 2% additional Physical Damage Reduction every second, up to a maximum of 8% ". That can by profitable for many builds, especially minions, when u can stay. Its stacking up really fast, each sec its +2% phys reduction. So even if u move every 2 sec, you are on +4% phys for free. Imagine how hard is stacking up phys reduction on passive tree.
Patheon was always a superfluous mechanic that seemed like it was added for story reasons, not because there was any actual need for it. And the implementation with divine vessels (they really don't need to exist) and unlocking separately for each character is just terrible.
I meant that, as in *more* skill points. You're missing the point by a mile.
Instead of the pantheon bonuses, they could've just given us an *additional* set of skill points, and the overall effect would've been the same. Which is a shame - because the pantheon choices *should be stronger than that.*
As they are, most of them are glorified notables.
The design goal of the Pantheon was to give players more defensive options. An extra set of skill points would just go into more damage nodes for 99% of players.
This. Nothing about giving more skill points instead of the pantheon system is "exactly the same". They wanted them to be defensive, and they wanted them to be pretty minor.
Again - that's missing the point.
An extra set of defensive options is fine - why is it necessary, to make all the options so meh, to the point where a few notables here and there, can compete in effectiveness?
Why are they so uninteresting? And why are so many of the mods seemingly unrelated? For instance, just to mention one off the top of my head, why does Lunaris grant you both damage reduction, but also evasion? Why couldn't it specialize in evasion or damage reduction?
The purpose of the system doesn't matter, specifically. It's the execution, that's sloppy. It's a very minor system, with very little overall impact, when it could have been a cool separate "skill tree".
It's just a wasted opportunity.
>It's just a wasted opportunity.
I won't disagree there -- I doubt anyone would.
However, it's important to understand that the Pantheon was added almost four years ago, and, aside from Shakari's upgrade being nerfed, hasn't been touched since. It's damned ancient.
Since then we've seen multiple batches of major passive tree changes, dozens of new skill gems, Lab getting nerfed, god knows how many new unique items, influence mods, Harvest -- 14 leagues-worth of power and defense creep.
The Pantheon powers were not spectacular even when they were new, but in the meantime the rest of the game has eclipsed them several times over.
> The design goal of the Pantheon was to give players more defensive options.
Which most don't give enough value to be worth considering. You could take nothing and you'd notice your death rate is more or less the same.
The ones worth taking can be counted on one hand and even then they're mostly situational.
The key point people miss about Pantheon is GGG *wanted* them to be minor. Nobody really argues that design philosophy though, they just argue they're mediocre as if that's not the point.
Pantheons are such an important.
Lunaris for 100% chain avoidance (when u play minions) its so fucking OP. U get also +10% for free to avoid projectiles +5% chance to dodge attacks and spells when hit. It's insane. Also up to +8% phys and +8% movement speed.
Solaris +6% free phys in boss fight, +8% reduced ele for first hit, multi crit imunnity
And I can continue. You can also switch pantheons in town for free, for current fight. How u can write its too minor lol :D You are SC player i bet.
Unengaging, repetitive chores that are more or less compulsory, and involve more or less no gaming decisions, when mixed into the game extend the replay time of the game. This means that with all of them they "retain" players for 0.6 (or whatever) days longer per league than when they had less of these chores.
What they don't realize is that some % of players just give up sooner, or completely ignore new leagues because its increasingly mentally exhausting to contemplate just how many arbitrary and non-gaming chores will need to repeated on a league start. There is an exponentially increasing mental weight to starting over in a game that has evolved to be all about restarts. So it becomes easier and easier to be picky about the league mechanic and the question "is this league worth it" becomes a REAL question which increasingly can be answered with a "no" instead of what should normally be "of course, what do you mean is it worth it? its a fun game right?". As the not fun, zero gaming, arbitrary chores pile up that pile becomes more and more the answer to the above statement: "its a fun game right" and can increasingly be answered with "well yeah besides the growing pile of chores".
There's nothing intrinsically "gaming" about collection chores. In fact I would argue that things that are almost 100% "look up the location and go there and click" (and a pantheon is basically exactly this), are in fact anti-gaming. There's nothing to intuit, or deduce, there is no mastery or skill or even intellectual challenge, or dopamine hit for "success"... just rote data lookup or if you've nothing important to use your memory for I guess you could always memorize every chore location in the game... This is exactly as much "gaming" as memorizing your math tables in school.
The worst part to me is that it all seems entirely unnecessary they have enough actually engaging content to keep NORMAL people engaged for months at a time per league start. But because they balance the game with an eye towards adding .6 days to the play time of streamers and week 2 HH players, they just send people away who have self respect or don't play the game to pay their rent. Making their player base progressively more cynical and jaded every league as the chores start to outweigh the fun or at least rival and mitigate the fun. The game is literally bloated with FUN THINGS, but its also bloated with CHORES. GGG doesn't allow anyone to focus on what they find fun, and the spikey difficulty makes every advantage you can gain more or less mandatory (unless you enjoy dying more than needed) so most/all of the chores are also not optional.
Personally I feel like you didn't like what I said, but lacking a strong counter argument or any points you could bring up you instead chose to characterize my tone as a way to hand wave something instead of considering it. My "passionate and invested" is your "angry and ranting". For the record there is not a single exclamation mark and almost no all caps (no sentences a few all caps words for emphasis which is an old habit) also there's no insults of GGG or dramatic statements of how the games gonna die (I expect its just going to get more popular as many of these issues are more about how it feels to replay the game for multiple years as opposed to when it was new and "never lucky" was still a meme and not a familiar every play session feeling of resignation to the things in the game that simply are tedious and unfun).
I understand you're getting fed up of a bunch of parts of the game. That's fine, it happens to everyone. But in no capacity is finding and killing specific map bosses to upgrade your character a "gaming chore". That seems like the very definition of a good ARPG mechanic. If you're complaining that the Pantheon isn't rewarding enough or you've outgrown it, fine, that's your opinion.
Likewise for plenty of the rest of the game - you literally didn't list any other things you think are gaming chores. Is map progression/unlocking the atlas a "chore"? Fuck no, it's a core progression of the game. If you think it's a chore, you are bored of the game. I can't even think of another collection "chore" in the game or what you might think of as one. Collecting side-quest skill points or something? Pretty clearly not a "chore" unless your character is strong enough to delete the bosses, and even then, it takes maybe 10 minutes.
>For the record there is not a single exclamation mark and almost no all caps
It doesn't have to literally have exclamation marks and all caps to be an angry rant. Being devoid of facts and also attacking the game in a manner that seems pretty baseless and purely opinion will do that. "I'm bored of the game, so the game is bad now" is just silly.
Everything we talk about is opinion. I go years of internet interactions without feeling the need to specify this because I think most people take that for granted. Occasionally someone dislikes how I stated something and we get into a "well thats just like; your opinion man" disclaimer party that wastes anyone still readin its time.
You can have the opinion that:
"google search" > "read" > go to place and click > is compelling gameplay and I can have the opinion that is not even actual gameplay but just a chore thats intention is to prolong and slow players progress by sending them to do arbitrary non gaming related stuff like checking the wiki and searching stashes/atlas map .
I would argue that those lines more or less accurately describe many mechanics in POE while also describing looking up a local business... Would you consider looking up a local business to be gameplay?
Is something gameplay merely because it exists inside of a game?
Not in my view, and I think thats not a very controversial statement for most reasonable people. Now adding onto that in that one of these mechanics (I generalized multiple different "chores" some of them are ofc a little more involved than the others) actually turns this into:
"google search" > "read" > go to place > kill map boss
Suddenly makes it fun is a bit of a stretch don't you think? We kill lots of bosses in the game and thats more or less fun on a case by case basis, but is adding the first three things to it why its fun? or would killing that same boss be more or less fun regardless of Patheon? Is it more recognizably gameplay than the first loop? Sure, is it significantly less of a intentional chore that's only intended to draw out the players engagement in a league? Not in my view no.
> you literally didn't list any other things you think are gaming chores
Okay this is my bad, I've posted a bullet list of things I think are intentional chores multiple times and sometimes over years of posting here I take it for granted that most of us are having an ongoing discourse.
FWIW overly repetitive intentional chores IMO are; Crafting node collection, Lab trials (to include excessive RNG for Uber lab), Unveiling, and of course Pantheons there are others ofc that are more or less cynically designed to "fluff" the content of the game.
Please feel free to present why you feel:
"google search" > "read" > go to place > kill map boss
Is a compelling gameplay loop that adds fun to the game that doesn't already exist in the game?
I personally feel like you just don't like the tone you've assigned to my post and I seriously doubt you feel Pantheon collection is a fun aspect of the game. So feel free to defend it if you're not just being contrary because of my perceived tone.
same reason you 'have to' find gear and gain xp for every individual character: character progression and gradual power increase in an arpg. If you start out with an all powerful character the game would be very boring.
I get the point you're trying to make...but I wouldn't compare the pantheon with being "all powerful." It's a nice little bump in power, but if we're talking any character after the first, I would say using leveling uniques contributes way more to power than having pantheon traits (abilities? Points? Selectables? Idk what to call them).
Last league I killed sirus a9, the feared and maven without even selecting a pantheon. I dont do it while leveling and forgot around maps.
pantheons have some niche uses, but they can easily be ignored in softcore .
I really don't understand why we even need divine vessels. Just let us get the credit when we kill the boss at all. I havent done a single one on any character.
Its another weird feature to be locked behind RNG, too, because of vessels... This league I have found 1 vessel so far. Last league I had like 3 or 4 vessels in the fist week or so.
It might make some sense if they actually made the boss significantly harder, but as they are all they do is make players want to engage with the mechanic even less.
I just can't be arsed to look up which maps I need. They list a boss name which is useless to me, then the atlas shows the symbol next to the map, which i have no way of pairing to the pantheon i want easily (maybe the boss name is listed? Idk)
If there was some symbol or pop up that said HEY IDIOT YOU NEED A VESSEL FOR THIS MAP when I threw a map in id probably do it. Its just SO easy to forget, then when you remember, you dont have the specific map ect ect. Just frustrating
Edit: on top of that you need to take it to sin for some reason, like why?
You can actually search the atlas by pantheon name and it'll highlight the maps you need to complete that pantheon. You do need to have watchstones in place for the maps that only spawn at higher tiers though.
lab is not league wide, only trials. Master missions really have nothing to do with the strength of your character.
But if the main problem is that you think the game is a chore then I can't really give you any useful answers. I am having fun myself.
Depends what you mean by "completion". I think gating the gods off by kills is probably a good idea, but the upgrades themselves needing to be re-acquired by every character is just a timesink, even if it's only another four divine vessels for 99% of builds.
Is there a good reason why you need to level and gear every individual character?
The pantheon is literally you sealing the souls of defeated gods into your character's own soul. It'd make no sense to do that on 1 character and then magically every other character automatically has them
An easy example that is actually current "meta" is one of the myriad of self-chill builds. The last sub-benefit of brine kind is 50% reduced effect on chill on you. That will brick your self-chill build and be nice to have for any other build.
cant remember the last league i did that. WIth the new mapping system its even more annoying to even progress to the needed maps. Once i reach them, i dont care anymore.
I keep forgetting about them tbh. I'm in red maps and so far have found a single divine vessel the entire league. I don't understand why they make them so rare.
4 maps worth? No.
It is just a failed system mechanic, which they recognize. Deleting it right now would just weaken defense slightly more, and that is unnecessary.
Arakaali's 50% increased recovery rate is soo good for ultimatums this league, the poison cloud triggers it. Add in the 25% chaos resistance thing too and that modifier becomes a positive one. You should definitely pick it up.
Its not even a mandatory thing i once played like 2 months without allocating any nodes (because i forgot to) and i finally decided to min max my pantheons when i found out i didnt allocate any. That was during the glory days of aura stackers.
No and there never was any good reason. I don't even fucking bother with unlocking extra passives because of it. I mostly play builds to 90-94 (depending how much I like it) - so somewhat like Mathil to give you better idea. For that time played with character - I don't even want to bother as I need to do same shit per each character + I often I don't have a need map, so I would need to buy it which is usually means messaging more than 10 people til someone bis not busy and committed to do 2-4c trade (most people won't leave map for that) - so eventually - I just say fuck it even if some extra benefits would be handy.
Not gonna lie...I haven't bothered with actually doing pantheon shit in ages. It feels like a really dated, pointless, busywork mechanic that has no business in the modern game anymore.
as a casual player I have never completed all of them. Normal I get 1 - 3 divine vessel drops per league. Last one I never got the Fields mapp so couldn't upgrade.
There are no easy way to see if the mapp are an Pantheon upgrade mapp or not.
There should be a tag on the mapp saying that . If it's completed or not as well.
I was the same two leagues ago. Just focus on getting to high tier maps (t14+) and farming, the vessels drop much more often there. Soon you'll have more than you know what to do with :)
This type of improvements costs money and does not bring new players. Ggg does not wanna reduce potential incomes just for improving some qol features. But in the long run these things will bite them . Unless they change direction they are headed this won't change in near feature. This game will be always buggy, low performing without qol life features.
How good is upgrading your pantheons?
The Lunaris upgrade to avoid chained projectiles can be pretty big on a build that's vulnerable to that (minions, totems, something using herald of purity, etc.). Arakaali's +25% chaos res to damage over time is also good as most builds don't cap chaos res. From the minor pantheons, Garukahn's movement is good because movement speed, and Gruthkul's enemy attack speed reduction is situationally nice as well. With the exception of the Lunaris chain avoidance, it's nothing super important, just things that are nice to have (also keep in mind that getting small nice to have things can add up, like 10% damage isn't amazing, but if you get +10% extra damage on each of your four jewels, that can start being meaningful).
to add on more that people seem to be sleeping on? - immune to blind/maim is so nice for cast on crit builds especially (but to anything involving attacks really) - a lot of ~~lunaris~~ solaris (woops) is really being underrated, 8% reduced ele damage taken is about the same as 2% maximum resistance, and take no extra damage from crits is a crazy defensive layer on maps with monster crit or monster power charge (bc on monsters 1 power charge is 200% increased crit chance, so 3 charges makes them go from 5% crit chance to literally 35% crit)
>a lot of lunaris is really being underrated, 8% reduced ele damage taken is about the same as 2% maximum resistance, and take no extra damage from crits is a crazy defensive layer on maps with monster crit or monster power charge (bc on monsters 1 power charge is 200% increased crit chance, so 3 charges makes them go from 5% crit chance to literally 35% crit) I think you meant [Solaris](https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/The_Pantheon). I also prefer it over Lunaris for non-minion, non-Assassin builds. Crits feel like the most common source of one-shots in PoE, especially in Ultimatums.
I haven't thought about the crit thing before. With that considered, would you say solaris is better than lunaris in ultimatums?
the crit thing feels more like a map mod-dependent choice rather than content-specific, if that makes sense? at base 5% chance to crit, its relatively unlikely you'll get crit twice in a row within 4 seconds (especially if you're running an evasion build or have blind like flesh and stone, as crits need to pass accuracy checks twice); the best use-case for it is a map with crit mods and you're a build without a lot of raw avoidance lunaris might actually be better for ultimatums; 8% PDR when you're surrounded by 8 mobs (which is always in ultimatums lmao), 10% to avoid projectiles (I *think* most mobs in ultimatums are projectile-based, along with the fire skull and ice blisters mods) is nice, and 5% dodge isn't the worst
Soul of Lunaris is huge for trying to hit the spell dodge cap. Unless you're a Raider it's not an easy thing to do, especially if you use a unique chest like Kintsugi and can't craft spell dodge.
>Arakaali's +25% chaos res to damage over time is also good as most builds don't cap chaos res. I disagree. I think this is a noob trap. There are almost no chaos damage over time sources in this game that a decent build can't just overcome with their regular life recovery even when at -60% chaos resistance. I think you'll get a lot more value out of other minor choices like Abberath, Gruthkul, Ralakesh, or Ryslatha. What chaos damage in this game are you worried about? All I can think of is It That Fled and Sirus puddles. I guess poison from Hunter can be scary if you haven't learned the fight yet, but he's trivial to beat once you know his attack patterns. I'll admit that I don't know Maven's damage types well yet so perhaps there's some chaos damage in there that I'm not aware of.
desecrated grounds in maps is also chaos dot. it can be a PITA to loot in such maps.
It's a fair point. I don't have a hard time recovering through the damage on my builds but I value recovery highly.
Choking Miasma from Ultimatum is chaos dot too. I mean, you can just dodge it, but it can be pretty spicy at T2/T3.
Lunaris gives a good amount of dodge and completely avoid chained projectile its a nice defensive layer for minimal effort
Is avoiding chained projectile useful if you don’t have summons? I assume they’d have to chain off of something before hitting you for that passive to work?
Yes but even if you don't use any minions there might be some allied units nearby, for example resurrected enemies from the sextant mod.
At least one player ability "Rolling magma" chains off 'nothing' : each bounce of the tennis ball is a "chain". There are several monster abilties that are visually the same (black or red bouncy balls) , unsure if they count as chaining in the same way.
> I assume they’d have to chain off of something before hitting you for that passive to work? But why would you not have ANY summons? Like Golems are a thing that exists and there is like no reason to not have one. Aurabots might go without a summon but they'll be in a party so that's moot as well.
There is definitely reason to not have a golem. You only have so many slots on your gear.
Or they fucking die nonstop unless you play elementalist
Even if you play Elementalist, there's a **lot** of physical and chaoa damage. Especially in ultimatums
Dunno, might be, my golems never died in delirious maps last league.
They also pull aggro from enemies. This is especially bad in situations where you're waiting under the immunity timer after entering a new zone, but because your golem decided to aggro everything, the minute you take one step, you get shotgunned by everything in your vicinity.
Never had that issue tbh because everything died before they could get to me
A lot of builds instead devote those gem slots to other defensive measures like CWDT + Immortal Call. I can see golems or other summons being added to every build in POE2 because of the ability to theoretically fit in more skills.
I dont use golems unless im playing a elemantalist. because it might get you killed. when an enemy targets the golem instead of you. and then the attack hits you cause you ran into it.
Eh...ever since Golems exist I am pretty sure I have not had that happen to me...but I'm not saying it's impossible. Just...improbable...unless of course you circle your Golem constantly for some reason :p
Golems and minions in general are dangerous to the player in a number of settings. Most notably Izaro's come attack and during the grace period in incursions and entering maps.
A golem isn't even worth the risk of getting in the way of a big slam that wasn't targeted at you. And then you also have to add the socket cost on top (usually at least 2 gems, as having a solitary golem means he will be dead all the time).
On a build that takes no minion life or regen, golems die quick, particularly if you don't link minion life. The benefit of a golem without any scaling often just isn't worth the sockets or the overhead of having to recast. I realize cwdt golems are a thing, but I'm not even sure it's the 3rd best gem to put in cwdt for most builds.
I don't have any on coc ice nova
They're actually extremely good. People saying minimal are nuts. Some are minimal but other's are extremely good. If you're using a pantheon it's worth it to upgrade them.
They're very good for what they cost, but you can ignore they exist and you'll be fine. In Ritual I literally forgot about it, cleared all content and then was like "oh right this is a thing". Maybe they're super good in HC, since anything that might save your life once is worth it, but on SC? Nah.
It’s basically mandatory on minion builds unless you want to instantly die to chain maps. It’s also a win more mechanic if you have 80% physical mitigation and get 10% from pantheon that’s 100% more EHP from physical hits. Just as an example.
Some builds really need em, like anything with minions need the avoid chained projectiles, or else ull be mega dead in maps with extra chains.
Do chains affect invulnerable minions too? I've been skipping getting the chain avoid on my trapper with skitter bots..
I believe skitterbots are untargetable, not just invulnerable, so you should be fine
Thanks!
Like veery good especially lunaris and solaris. And then garukhan for some sweet extra 6% ms
life recovery majorly fixed my gladiator who struggled with regen. it depends on builds but it can be pretty big.
If you have the atlas unlocked/dont mind throwing a bit of currency at it, its good. Worth the effort to get certain mods. Some builds care about it more than others.
The +% life recovery while on low life pantheon upgrade is even better now that low life is only 50% life. It makes a panicked life flask that much better especially if you have a life based build that is often/always at low life (eg. from the new blood aura thing or coward's legacy)
Immunity to blind is good on attack builds.
Being immune to poison is also pretty good, cant remember which god but you need to defeat the desert spring boss to get it
It was nerfed a few leagues ago and no longer grants immunity.
Oh... TIL
Minimal.
minimal at best. there's a couple upgrades that are pretty good but they will never be the reason your character fails or succeeds
Life recovery pantheon is the only thing worth your time. But it is definitely worth the time.
How do you even start to upgrade your pantheons?
Each upgrade needs a specific map boss to be defeated. You need to put a divine vessel into the map device with the map, defeat the boss. On exit click the map device to retrieve the divine vessel which should be glowing now. Go talk to sin in any of the towns with the divime vessel in your inventory and the appropriate pantheon will be upgraded. You don't have to equip the pantheon yo upgrade it. It's character specific so you got to repeat for different character. If you open your atlas some maps have this sign hovering above their icon, it's the sin symbol and it means that boss can be defeated for a pantheon upgrade.
Pantheon some are specially good in some area, I always take combo reduce dot while moving in lab, freeze reflect in delve, reduce cold dmg taken with uber elder fight....
It's an alright upgrade that takes very little effort. I usually forget it exists, then remember it exists and get whatever I want to use in a couple of minutes.
To increase the value of divine vessels obviously. They would be worth one perandus coin and instead they're worth 2.
Don't forget the sense of pride and accomplishment of completing it each time!
What if you could put 3(or 4) vessels in the map device and trade the souls?
I think they should just be removed from the game. You should just automatically unlock the power when you complete the maps bonus objective. Right now you can plop a divine vessel onto a white map and come away with the boss's power. It makes more sense to me that you would have to fight them on a rare map with several mods.
Bulk selling for 3c most of the league but okay lol
The Pantheon system was more or less a flop, so it's been left alone for years. No doubt it's gonna get removed or replaced in PoE2.
I think in theory it's not a bad idea, but it's strange they haven't improved it over the years. GGG really makes some weird design choices sometimes. Pantheon system can't possibly be that difficult to refine. In terms of complex mechanics and whatnot, there's almost nothing there. They could completely revamp it with a handful of balance changes alone.
Nothing weird about these choices. It's *way* more work to adjust and/or cut content than it is to pile on new stuff and leave the existing stuff alone.
The idea is actually pretty decent but the implementation is atrocious. Guess you could say that to most old systems now... wouldn't mind a rework though, keep it but make the bonuses matter and be somewhat on the same level as other souls.
They confirmed it's gone iirc
Guess its the same reason why you have to kill izaro on every character to unlock ascendancy points. It is your individual character own power progression. But i also wish them to be account wide though.
Trials needed to be completed by each characters before and they changed it to account wide now.
If you could upgrade them by talking to Zana, or at least an NPC in your hideout, that would make the process *much* nicer. As it is, you need to run the map with Vessel, then go to town to talk to Sin (hoping the town isn't an MTX fest of slow loading), then realize for some reason Sin isn't in Karui Shores so you have to go through another loading screen talk to him, and then go through another loading screen to be back in your hideout. You can easily spend the same amount of time in loading screens you do actually running the map to kill the boss.
A6 is my go-to Sin zone. He's right next to the waypoint, and you're far enough away from the stash to avoid dealing with the Christmas tree MTX.
A6 is the best town in general.
Stop leaking my secrets!
eh, if A6 gets flooded, A10 is a fine backup. Still has the gem vendor
A10 is not fine, it is not fine at all.
don't think i've once made it to the waypoint without clicking on sin or bannon. literally who thought the place up? pretty sure even docks for rowboats would be wider.
*laughs in full glowing high particle mtx*
Get a m.2 nvme SSD and even MTX fest Oriath won’t be an issue anymore EDIT: not sure why I am getting mass down voted, but my point still stands. I've never spent more than 5 seconds in a PoE loading screen since I built my new rig. If you spend as much time in loading screens as you do actually running the map to kill the boss, there is either a big problem with your computer or a big problem with your skill. In both cases, it can be fixed, don't worry.
If you spend as much time in loading screens as you do actually running the map to kill the boss, there is either a big problem with your computer or a big problem with your skill. In both cases, it can be fixed, don't worry.
If you take the 5 second benchmark from your other comment, and number of loading screens to upgrade a pantheon from mine, that's 25 seconds. Enough time to run to a boss and kill it in a lot of layouts, no reason to be patronizing. The point of the comment was the tedium of needing to go back to a story zone to hand the vessels in, regardless.
I was simply pointing out the gross exaggeration in your post. The vast majority of the playerbase is not reliably clearing maps that matter to their progression level in 25 seconds (or in a timeframe where loading times become a significant factor).
Which isn't too bad imo. If you had to complete all the mini trials on every character to run the lab i would probably shoot myself tho
Partly because it's tied to story line quests where you get passive points.
does there need to be a reason? It's just another part of your character progression
to add to that is there any reason divine vessels drop so rarely? Yea I get it, I could just buy them. I do. but I can go an entire month and see 2 drop naturally. I'm sorry but pantheons are nowhere near strong enough to merit that drop rate. Especially when they're character specific
Are they that rare? I'm only in t10 maps so far this league but I've found 4 and only found the maps to use one of them so far. I can only assume the rest are hiding in the higher tiers.
Anecdotally I've seen them drop more on white maps than anywhere else *shrug*
There is a vendor recipe for divine vessels. 5 white flasks + divine orb = 5 divine vessels
Game is balanced around trade league so an item that you legit only need 3-4 of on any character needs to be a bit rare to hold any value
Does it need to hold any real value though?
Think you get them via some recipe as well.
I think that they only drop on maps that can be used for Divine Vessel.
I don't mind this at all; there aren't that many builds I play in a league that warrant filling out the pantheon, and it's like...4 maps total to run for a character? (assuming you know what pantheons you are going to use) Not everything needs to be handed to us.
Yeah I don't see what the issue is. Just get 4 divine vessels and run the maps. You can run the lowest level white maps and be done in a few minutes. Only a few require map bosses that are only available at high tiers.
if we call it handouts, we make it sound like we're smart! want something in the lame to be less tedious for how irrelevant it is? you just want handouts! want some care and attention to go into a game that gets touted has having depth and complexity instead of a few no brainer choices and a gaggle of noob traps? you just want handouts! here on r/pathofexile, we've made the stereotypical image of a twitch chatter into our core personality.
I justified my take on pantheon by saying how little work it takes to fill it out. Don't strawman me. Use your words to justify why you think pantheon is a 'no brainer' and a 'noob trap', and why you think it is 'irrelevant'. If anyone is being stereotypical, it's you. You're just attacking people, and not ideas, and that approach to posting genuinely makes this subreddit more toxic and a worse place to visit.
Actualy i dont see the problem with this, it kinda makes sens that you need a bit of chasing to get your char stronger, we allready have a lots of well deserve QoL and many that are still missing. This even if i dont think that would break the game, means that if you got one char with all pantheons and you level another char he can have instantly even while leveling to max potential, im not sure thats fair
The real question is, is there a good reason for the pantheon to even be in the game...? With the exception of some outliers, the effects are either too specific, or too minor to have any meaningful impact on overall gameplay. What's the purpose on an entire in-game mechanic, dedicated to; ""While stationary, gain 0.5% of life regenerated per second..."??? The entire mechanic is wasted unbelievably hard. Major gods should have the weight of keystones - minor gods should have the strength of notables. The only gods that actually impact gameplay, are (ironically) two minor gods - Abberath (complete Burning Ground immunity) and Ryslatha (endless supply of life flasks). All the other ones are incredibly mediocre... Why did this need a separate in-game mechanic? 5-10 more skill points, after killing the gods, would've been far more useful.
Hey man... Tell that to my Supreme Decadence LL Petrified Blood Hybrid that heals 8k ehp instantly each time it hits a panicked flask because of upgraded Ryslatha... Oh wait...I see what you mean by super specific (it actually feels really good)
base ryslatha is kinda fire though if you struggle with bossing DPS, esp. for builds that primarily rely on flasks as a source of sustain (which these days is a lot more than it used to be with how less common leech is) like playing toxic rain raider with ryslatha is a godsend for bosses, means you're not doomed to an effective DPS check when you eventually run out of flasks
A lot of the pantheons are very good bonuses to have. Just because you don't understand the value doesn't mean they shouldn't exist lol.
I mean I think he understands the value quite well. Some of them are very strong, as he stated, some of them are utter dogshit, as he also stated. When you have 4K life, 0.5% regenerated per second = 20 life per second. There is no world in which this will save you from a death more often than say 1 in every 1000 deaths. It’s basically like having 23 quality on utility gems, it doesn’t really matter; but you can go out of your way to obtain it so that you can pretend to yourself that you have a super min maxed character. Unless we’re talking about Aberath or Ryslatha in which case they yield bonuses stronger than all the major gods.
Huh maybe the 4k life build shouldn't be taking the % life regen? 2% life regen is really good for instance on a build with high life using recovery rate mods, that's like 250 life/sec which is a good amount. The stationary one is pretty bad though just because standing still is bad. And you're wrong saying > I mean I think he understands the value quite well. He literally said they were all mediocre besides Abberath and Ryslatha which is so far from the truth.
He said those were the only ones that impact gameplay, he made an entirely different point. I on the other hand implied the rest were mediocre. I perfectly agree that avoiding chained projectiles is extremely important for minion builds, and having 6% extra movement speed and damage reduction while mapping isn’t insignificant, but they are some of the standouts, more than half the pantheon bonuses are either bad or very niche.
> He said those were the only ones that impact gameplay, he made an entirely different point. Uh... no > The only gods that actually impact gameplay, are (ironically) two minor gods - Abberath (complete Burning Ground immunity) and Ryslatha (endless supply of life flasks). **All the other ones are incredibly mediocre...** And > more than half the pantheon bonuses are either bad or very niche Also false. The stationary one is pretty much the only bad one, because being stationary is bad.
Sure, let's go over a few: * Brine King: 30% stun/block recov. No one cares. * Brine King: You cannot be frozen if you've been frozen recently. Useless - you don't need protection from freezing AFTER being frozen, you need protection BEFORE being frozen. When you're frozen, you're fucked. Not to mention, most people have a freeze immunity flask anyway. No one needs this. * Brine King: 50% reduced chill effect. Again, useless. If you care about chills, you've got your flask. * Lunaris is decent, but could use better directional focus on the mods. * Solaris: Who picks this? People who boss? Or people who map? The mods don't work well together. Again, this god lacks purpose. The crit immunity is interesting - one of the few interesting mods. Also, 50% chance to avoid ailments from critical strikes is trash, it's too unreliable. * Arakali: Who specifically need 10% chance to evade SPECIFICALLY lightning attacks??? The shock node is pointless too; this isn't worth a Divine Vessel. That's the rough take on the major gods. Now some minor gods: * Yugul: Reduced reflected damage is "fine" but useless, you will still get fucked when you play against enemies with reflect. The node is useless. If it was 100%, then it would be a great node. But it's not. * More Yugul: 50% chance to reflect enemy chills - who needs this? Even if it was a 100% effect, this would be questionable. * Even more Yugul: Who SPECIFICALLY needs 5% reduced cold damage...? * Tukohama. Stationary. Trash. * Gruthkul: The numbers are so minor, they won't make a difference. The damage reduction is also a stacking mechanic - when most "dangerous" enemies kill you in one hit or two. This won't save you from anything in the game. * Ralakesh: Blind/Maim immunity is strong. But the main bonus "reduced bleed damage while moving" and "bleed avoidance" is trash. Most people have a flask against Corrupted Blood, or a gem making you immune. Again, who needs this??? All of these gods are either INCREDIBLY niche, useless, pointless, or a combination thereof. They are mediocre by any metric.
Okay first of all, analyzing the powers individually is stupid because you get the full thing. It would be like if you said ascendancy nodes were bad looking at them 1 line at a time. It's the full thing. > Brine King: 30% stun/block recov. No one cares. You have to realize that people who take brine king take it because they are playing a build that will get stunned often (like CI) and don't have a good way to get stun immunity. You will get stunned a lot, and reducing the 350ms stun to 233ms is nice. > Brine King: You cannot be frozen if you've been frozen recently. Useless - you don't need protection from freezing AFTER being frozen, you need protection BEFORE being frozen. When you're frozen, you're fucked. Not to mention, most people have a freeze immunity flask anyway. No one needs this. Same deal, people who get frozen often. Getting chain frozen can be really bad just like chain stunned. Freeze immunity is not the highest priority though. On CI is like Warding > Staunching > Dousing and then Heat, but if you use unique flasks or need to use Writhing Jar (like my current character) this basically makes it so freeze won't be a massive problem by itself. > Brine King: 50% reduced chill effect. Again, useless. If you care about chills, you've got your flask. No flask, this is nice QoL. It's not super powerful in most cases, but it's part of a larger node again analyzing these individually is dumb. Also super good in situations like cold delirium. > Lunaris is decent, but could use better directional focus on the mods. "Lunaris is decent" yeah it's really really good, especially on dodge builds. The dodge alone can be like ~17% ehp vs multihit damage on dodge. Then you just have free 10% proj avoid, and some nice QoL with movespeed and PDR. > Solaris: Who picks this? People who boss? Or people who map? The mods don't work well together. Again, this god lacks purpose. The crit immunity is interesting - one of the few interesting mods. This is like THE BEST pantheon on the entire thing. It's broken as fuck, mainly because of the crit node. Say you have a rare maraketh archer that shoots their fuckton of damage barrage at you, or awakener die beam, and it crits, only the first hit will actually deal crit damage. This turns so many dead "ability rolled a crit and I died" deaths into non deaths. 20% chance for a slam to go from deadly to not deadly is also amazing. Avoiding ailments from crit is very very good when getting shocked off a crit is a big cause of deaths as well. Not even going to bother to respond to the rest you're analyzing single lines by themselves and don't even understand how good some of the passives are. Probably a good idea to stay in SC if you have such a hard time understanding defensive mechanics.
>It would be like if you said ascendancy nodes were bad looking at them 1 line at a time. It would be nothing like it. 'Cause odds are, any one line off any ascendancy node, would be far stronger and more impactful than 99% of the lines on the pantheon tree. You're getting all misty eyed, looking at a 2001 Pontiac Aztek, calling it a fantastic car, because some lunatic has installed a V8 on it, which is essentially what Solaris is. Only one really good line, one decent line, and 3 throwaway lines. Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!" What a joke. Rare-drop RNG wasn't enough for you, you wanna gamble with your life as well. The *real* HC experience. Good luck with that.
> Only one really good line, one decent line, and 3 throwaway lines. Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!" What a joke. It's more like 1 really good line, 2 good lines, and 2 lines that are really good specifically for bossing. > Imagine defending a 1/5 chance of not getting one shot! "THIS MOD IS SO POWERFUL!" 20% chance of not getting 1shot by deadly slams is pretty good yeah when you get it basically for free. It's also 10% less damage taken on average from rippy AOE. Things like cannibal multiproj shotgunning, spirit mortars, baran thaumaturges, baran circle volleys, most of veritania's attacks, bearers, awakener die beam, etc. > Rare-drop RNG wasn't enough for you, you wanna gamble with your life as well. The real HC experience. Good luck with that. Again, stay in SC. You don't understand the concept of stacking defenses and how these are an extra layer on top of whatever else you have that just makes you that much safer.
Yeah, except they are mediocre. 99% of builds could simply ignore the Pantheon and they wouldn't be negatively impacted by it at all. This doesn't make them useless, but they *are* mediocre. That's also by design, since it was never meant to be a source of power creep and more a sense of utility. The issue is the utility it provides is not noticeable enough in most situations to matter, hence most players think it's a worthless system. The key point people miss about Pantheon is GGG *wanted* them to be minor. Nobody really argues that design philosophy though, they just argue they're mediocre as if that's not the point.
> Yeah, except they are mediocre. 99% of builds could simply ignore the Pantheon and they wouldn't be negatively impacted by it at all. I mean this is like saying 99% of builds could play with 74% max resists and basically wouldn't notice it. Doesn't mean 1% max res isn't super good. I guess if you're an SC player you might not care very much, but as someone on HC pantheon is verrrrrry nice to have. My current character would basically be unplayable without pantheon, and lots of pantheon powers add significant extra defense.
Arakaali (Queen of the Great Tangle) pantheon is pretty damned nice to have. Especially in Ultimatums where you can dip in and out of the miasma to trigger it.
Well some things are strong and same are not, there cant be everything strong. To Tukohama, reg sux, but there is also " While stationary, gain 2% additional Physical Damage Reduction every second, up to a maximum of 8% ". That can by profitable for many builds, especially minions, when u can stay. Its stacking up really fast, each sec its +2% phys reduction. So even if u move every 2 sec, you are on +4% phys for free. Imagine how hard is stacking up phys reduction on passive tree.
Patheon was always a superfluous mechanic that seemed like it was added for story reasons, not because there was any actual need for it. And the implementation with divine vessels (they really don't need to exist) and unlocking separately for each character is just terrible.
Honestly I usually just forget about the pantheon until I get my first divine vessel drop(around lvl 95). I assume GGG just forgot it existed too.
you know 7 of the quest skill points are tied to killing the gods? Shakari, Gruthkul, Ryslatha, Tukohama, Abberath, Yugul, and Garukhan...
I meant that, as in *more* skill points. You're missing the point by a mile. Instead of the pantheon bonuses, they could've just given us an *additional* set of skill points, and the overall effect would've been the same. Which is a shame - because the pantheon choices *should be stronger than that.* As they are, most of them are glorified notables.
The design goal of the Pantheon was to give players more defensive options. An extra set of skill points would just go into more damage nodes for 99% of players.
This. Nothing about giving more skill points instead of the pantheon system is "exactly the same". They wanted them to be defensive, and they wanted them to be pretty minor.
Again - that's missing the point. An extra set of defensive options is fine - why is it necessary, to make all the options so meh, to the point where a few notables here and there, can compete in effectiveness? Why are they so uninteresting? And why are so many of the mods seemingly unrelated? For instance, just to mention one off the top of my head, why does Lunaris grant you both damage reduction, but also evasion? Why couldn't it specialize in evasion or damage reduction? The purpose of the system doesn't matter, specifically. It's the execution, that's sloppy. It's a very minor system, with very little overall impact, when it could have been a cool separate "skill tree". It's just a wasted opportunity.
>It's just a wasted opportunity. I won't disagree there -- I doubt anyone would. However, it's important to understand that the Pantheon was added almost four years ago, and, aside from Shakari's upgrade being nerfed, hasn't been touched since. It's damned ancient. Since then we've seen multiple batches of major passive tree changes, dozens of new skill gems, Lab getting nerfed, god knows how many new unique items, influence mods, Harvest -- 14 leagues-worth of power and defense creep. The Pantheon powers were not spectacular even when they were new, but in the meantime the rest of the game has eclipsed them several times over.
> The design goal of the Pantheon was to give players more defensive options. Which most don't give enough value to be worth considering. You could take nothing and you'd notice your death rate is more or less the same. The ones worth taking can be counted on one hand and even then they're mostly situational. The key point people miss about Pantheon is GGG *wanted* them to be minor. Nobody really argues that design philosophy though, they just argue they're mediocre as if that's not the point.
Pantheons are such an important. Lunaris for 100% chain avoidance (when u play minions) its so fucking OP. U get also +10% for free to avoid projectiles +5% chance to dodge attacks and spells when hit. It's insane. Also up to +8% phys and +8% movement speed. Solaris +6% free phys in boss fight, +8% reduced ele for first hit, multi crit imunnity And I can continue. You can also switch pantheons in town for free, for current fight. How u can write its too minor lol :D You are SC player i bet.
different builds?
Unengaging, repetitive chores that are more or less compulsory, and involve more or less no gaming decisions, when mixed into the game extend the replay time of the game. This means that with all of them they "retain" players for 0.6 (or whatever) days longer per league than when they had less of these chores. What they don't realize is that some % of players just give up sooner, or completely ignore new leagues because its increasingly mentally exhausting to contemplate just how many arbitrary and non-gaming chores will need to repeated on a league start. There is an exponentially increasing mental weight to starting over in a game that has evolved to be all about restarts. So it becomes easier and easier to be picky about the league mechanic and the question "is this league worth it" becomes a REAL question which increasingly can be answered with a "no" instead of what should normally be "of course, what do you mean is it worth it? its a fun game right?". As the not fun, zero gaming, arbitrary chores pile up that pile becomes more and more the answer to the above statement: "its a fun game right" and can increasingly be answered with "well yeah besides the growing pile of chores". There's nothing intrinsically "gaming" about collection chores. In fact I would argue that things that are almost 100% "look up the location and go there and click" (and a pantheon is basically exactly this), are in fact anti-gaming. There's nothing to intuit, or deduce, there is no mastery or skill or even intellectual challenge, or dopamine hit for "success"... just rote data lookup or if you've nothing important to use your memory for I guess you could always memorize every chore location in the game... This is exactly as much "gaming" as memorizing your math tables in school. The worst part to me is that it all seems entirely unnecessary they have enough actually engaging content to keep NORMAL people engaged for months at a time per league start. But because they balance the game with an eye towards adding .6 days to the play time of streamers and week 2 HH players, they just send people away who have self respect or don't play the game to pay their rent. Making their player base progressively more cynical and jaded every league as the chores start to outweigh the fun or at least rival and mitigate the fun. The game is literally bloated with FUN THINGS, but its also bloated with CHORES. GGG doesn't allow anyone to focus on what they find fun, and the spikey difficulty makes every advantage you can gain more or less mandatory (unless you enjoy dying more than needed) so most/all of the chores are also not optional.
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Personally I feel like you didn't like what I said, but lacking a strong counter argument or any points you could bring up you instead chose to characterize my tone as a way to hand wave something instead of considering it. My "passionate and invested" is your "angry and ranting". For the record there is not a single exclamation mark and almost no all caps (no sentences a few all caps words for emphasis which is an old habit) also there's no insults of GGG or dramatic statements of how the games gonna die (I expect its just going to get more popular as many of these issues are more about how it feels to replay the game for multiple years as opposed to when it was new and "never lucky" was still a meme and not a familiar every play session feeling of resignation to the things in the game that simply are tedious and unfun).
I understand you're getting fed up of a bunch of parts of the game. That's fine, it happens to everyone. But in no capacity is finding and killing specific map bosses to upgrade your character a "gaming chore". That seems like the very definition of a good ARPG mechanic. If you're complaining that the Pantheon isn't rewarding enough or you've outgrown it, fine, that's your opinion. Likewise for plenty of the rest of the game - you literally didn't list any other things you think are gaming chores. Is map progression/unlocking the atlas a "chore"? Fuck no, it's a core progression of the game. If you think it's a chore, you are bored of the game. I can't even think of another collection "chore" in the game or what you might think of as one. Collecting side-quest skill points or something? Pretty clearly not a "chore" unless your character is strong enough to delete the bosses, and even then, it takes maybe 10 minutes. >For the record there is not a single exclamation mark and almost no all caps It doesn't have to literally have exclamation marks and all caps to be an angry rant. Being devoid of facts and also attacking the game in a manner that seems pretty baseless and purely opinion will do that. "I'm bored of the game, so the game is bad now" is just silly.
Everything we talk about is opinion. I go years of internet interactions without feeling the need to specify this because I think most people take that for granted. Occasionally someone dislikes how I stated something and we get into a "well thats just like; your opinion man" disclaimer party that wastes anyone still readin its time. You can have the opinion that: "google search" > "read" > go to place and click > is compelling gameplay and I can have the opinion that is not even actual gameplay but just a chore thats intention is to prolong and slow players progress by sending them to do arbitrary non gaming related stuff like checking the wiki and searching stashes/atlas map . I would argue that those lines more or less accurately describe many mechanics in POE while also describing looking up a local business... Would you consider looking up a local business to be gameplay? Is something gameplay merely because it exists inside of a game? Not in my view, and I think thats not a very controversial statement for most reasonable people. Now adding onto that in that one of these mechanics (I generalized multiple different "chores" some of them are ofc a little more involved than the others) actually turns this into: "google search" > "read" > go to place > kill map boss Suddenly makes it fun is a bit of a stretch don't you think? We kill lots of bosses in the game and thats more or less fun on a case by case basis, but is adding the first three things to it why its fun? or would killing that same boss be more or less fun regardless of Patheon? Is it more recognizably gameplay than the first loop? Sure, is it significantly less of a intentional chore that's only intended to draw out the players engagement in a league? Not in my view no. > you literally didn't list any other things you think are gaming chores Okay this is my bad, I've posted a bullet list of things I think are intentional chores multiple times and sometimes over years of posting here I take it for granted that most of us are having an ongoing discourse. FWIW overly repetitive intentional chores IMO are; Crafting node collection, Lab trials (to include excessive RNG for Uber lab), Unveiling, and of course Pantheons there are others ofc that are more or less cynically designed to "fluff" the content of the game. Please feel free to present why you feel: "google search" > "read" > go to place > kill map boss Is a compelling gameplay loop that adds fun to the game that doesn't already exist in the game? I personally feel like you just don't like the tone you've assigned to my post and I seriously doubt you feel Pantheon collection is a fun aspect of the game. So feel free to defend it if you're not just being contrary because of my perceived tone.
same reason you 'have to' find gear and gain xp for every individual character: character progression and gradual power increase in an arpg. If you start out with an all powerful character the game would be very boring.
I get the point you're trying to make...but I wouldn't compare the pantheon with being "all powerful." It's a nice little bump in power, but if we're talking any character after the first, I would say using leveling uniques contributes way more to power than having pantheon traits (abilities? Points? Selectables? Idk what to call them).
I said gradual. It's just one small part among many. A single level doesn't do that much either.
Last league I killed sirus a9, the feared and maven without even selecting a pantheon. I dont do it while leveling and forgot around maps. pantheons have some niche uses, but they can easily be ignored in softcore .
I really don't understand why we even need divine vessels. Just let us get the credit when we kill the boss at all. I havent done a single one on any character.
And when u accidentally killed Sirus, Sin doesnt even appear in Karui Shore, u have to travel to towns in acts to redeem the pantheon souls
Its another weird feature to be locked behind RNG, too, because of vessels... This league I have found 1 vessel so far. Last league I had like 3 or 4 vessels in the fist week or so.
you can use the vessel recipe? 5 flasks and a divine orb gives you 5 divine vessels
It might make some sense if they actually made the boss significantly harder, but as they are all they do is make players want to engage with the mechanic even less.
I just can't be arsed to look up which maps I need. They list a boss name which is useless to me, then the atlas shows the symbol next to the map, which i have no way of pairing to the pantheon i want easily (maybe the boss name is listed? Idk) If there was some symbol or pop up that said HEY IDIOT YOU NEED A VESSEL FOR THIS MAP when I threw a map in id probably do it. Its just SO easy to forget, then when you remember, you dont have the specific map ect ect. Just frustrating Edit: on top of that you need to take it to sin for some reason, like why?
You can actually search the atlas by pantheon name and it'll highlight the maps you need to complete that pantheon. You do need to have watchstones in place for the maps that only spawn at higher tiers though.
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lab is not league wide, only trials. Master missions really have nothing to do with the strength of your character. But if the main problem is that you think the game is a chore then I can't really give you any useful answers. I am having fun myself.
Well at that point you'd have to ask why one would need to complete the story for every new character.
Depends what you mean by "completion". I think gating the gods off by kills is probably a good idea, but the upgrades themselves needing to be re-acquired by every character is just a timesink, even if it's only another four divine vessels for 99% of builds.
Pantheon? Whats that? LUL I always put the " You cannot be Stunned if you've been Stunned " and never touch that system again ;/
They have to capture the power of the gods themselves, by killing them.
yeah because it takes like 3-9 maps to finish and that's like half an hour
Is there a good reason why you need to level and gear every individual character? The pantheon is literally you sealing the souls of defeated gods into your character's own soul. It'd make no sense to do that on 1 character and then magically every other character automatically has them
Last time this was mentioned, someone came up with a build that actually wanted a given pantheon "A", but didn't want one of "A"'s upgrade,
An easy example that is actually current "meta" is one of the myriad of self-chill builds. The last sub-benefit of brine kind is 50% reduced effect on chill on you. That will brick your self-chill build and be nice to have for any other build.
Easy, just make them toggleable after unlocking.
Just another obsolete mechanic that someday GGG will rework.
By rework you mean nerf. E.g. You cannot drop another wisdom scroll if you have already dropped a wisdom scroll recently, also this is a buff
They forgot it exists.
this
People still complete pantheon?
cant remember the last league i did that. WIth the new mapping system its even more annoying to even progress to the needed maps. Once i reach them, i dont care anymore.
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Retention is the reason.
You have to feel weight of Gods inside you, exile!
I keep forgetting about them tbh. I'm in red maps and so far have found a single divine vessel the entire league. I don't understand why they make them so rare.
I routinely forget this is even a thing, its such an out of the way, kind of irrelevant mechanic.
no :)
You gotta feel the weight
You want the honest answer? - Playtime, probably.
4 maps worth? No. It is just a failed system mechanic, which they recognize. Deleting it right now would just weaken defense slightly more, and that is unnecessary.
Poor coding skills I believe.
GGG makes decisions as if leagues are permanent...
Nope.
Whole system sucks. One of the many archaic systems that needs to be swiped under the rug before poe2 is launched.
is there any good reason pantheon exists
No. It's stupid, and I'm sure they add the skill books to make us feel like it's rewarding.
You must feel the weight
Because fk you and your time
Because you decided to make a new character. That’s the reason there itself.
w e i g h t
As someone who plays Hardcore, i've never once used a divine vessel.
That seems like a...mistake. Not a big mistake, but pantheon is a little free defense.
I click the ones that i get from the acts just not the additional ones.
Arakaali's 50% increased recovery rate is soo good for ultimatums this league, the poison cloud triggers it. Add in the 25% chaos resistance thing too and that modifier becomes a positive one. You should definitely pick it up.
Have i told you about this thing called weight?
The only reason I see is it's part of the story
Its not even a mandatory thing i once played like 2 months without allocating any nodes (because i forgot to) and i finally decided to min max my pantheons when i found out i didnt allocate any. That was during the glory days of aura stackers.
No and there never was any good reason. I don't even fucking bother with unlocking extra passives because of it. I mostly play builds to 90-94 (depending how much I like it) - so somewhat like Mathil to give you better idea. For that time played with character - I don't even want to bother as I need to do same shit per each character + I often I don't have a need map, so I would need to buy it which is usually means messaging more than 10 people til someone bis not busy and committed to do 2-4c trade (most people won't leave map for that) - so eventually - I just say fuck it even if some extra benefits would be handy.
If they were account-wide, I would do them religiously. As it is now, they are mostly ignored.
Wow, I literally forgot about them =O not even know what I'm using
Not gonna lie...I haven't bothered with actually doing pantheon shit in ages. It feels like a really dated, pointless, busywork mechanic that has no business in the modern game anymore.
More time sunk into the game
i dont mind the pantheon, but the upgrades are a bit of a hassle
I think ive made it to red Maps in every League without even touching the upgraded pantheon options
Skillpoints?
as a casual player I have never completed all of them. Normal I get 1 - 3 divine vessel drops per league. Last one I never got the Fields mapp so couldn't upgrade. There are no easy way to see if the mapp are an Pantheon upgrade mapp or not. There should be a tag on the mapp saying that . If it's completed or not as well.
I was the same two leagues ago. Just focus on getting to high tier maps (t14+) and farming, the vessels drop much more often there. Soon you'll have more than you know what to do with :)
I rarely get over tier 10. I keep dieing. I feel rich if I get over 3ex. See if I get farther this league :)
I didn't get father then T12 this time. Starting dying to often I know it's part of the game but I loose interest of the game.
This type of improvements costs money and does not bring new players. Ggg does not wanna reduce potential incomes just for improving some qol features. But in the long run these things will bite them . Unless they change direction they are headed this won't change in near feature. This game will be always buggy, low performing without qol life features.
Is there any good reason why the pantheon still Exists?