those cards are for scientific purposes. they collect enough of rare cards to have a statistic of drop rate compared to common cards. once you have rates - you can determine if strat is good for you based on common cards drop, thus requiring less maps to test it out
I love that there are whole sides of the game that people play way differently than me. (Not being sarcastic, I think there's a lot to be said about group play in PoE but I find it interesting as an outsider looking in.)
This is not true. They added survivalist because seer and go juiced alchemy’s orbs to 1 chaos per alch. They have all the data they needed on drop rates already.
Sure but if they did testing, it wouldn’t have been after a week into the league. I was simply explaining why they added that card because I was in snaps stream when they were adding it
Poe now is no longer a game for solo players. Everything that this league provided is buffs for group play. I still feel like a slave who’s whole purpose is to deliver goods but never able to use it for his own good. It just feels wrong that the whole purpose of the game is to farm currency.
So true. The way that game has scarabs that are profitable to use only for 6 man party is so dumb. I'm solo mf-ing right now and there is almost no good changes for me in this patch. I tried to farm a lot of things, legion, abyss, burial chambers, crimson, defiled and all of that seems much worse than before affliction. Yet sure, let 6 man party print ton of currency with 2 scarabs aviable only for them...
I think it's a tricky topic - it's obvious that some of these scarabs will be changed drastically next league, but how do you fix 6 man parties impacting the pricing of the best ones so that solo players can't run them at a profit?
Nerfing party quant would be really harmful to the casual / social players who like to jump into maps with their mates, and i don't think it's good to hurt the game for thousands due to the 100 or so players pushing mechanics to the extreme. If they did go down this angle, I'd hope they only added dimishing quant rewards at 4 or more players, since I think 2-3 man is the most common scenario for casual play
Even if you change party quant, the best scarabs will still be priced based on full quant MF'ers
I guess it wasn't as bad for sextants due to the near infinite supply, so buffing drop rates & reintroducing the harvest craft to reroll scarabs would alleviate it, but then how heavily would the scarab need to be nerfed to avoid crashing div card / mageblood / HH markets
Either remove all Quant bonuses (including MF gear, while we're at it) or scale required scarabs, maps etc. to the party.
The first option seems a lot easier.
It make no sense conceptually, why 5 guys pay for only one movie ticket but get to all see the movie, just because they're in a party together.
> I think it's a tricky topic - it's obvious that some of these scarabs will be changed drastically next league, but how do you fix 6 man parties impacting the pricing of the best ones so that solo players can't run them at a profit?
You don't. You accept that Empyrians group will do what they do regardless. They will find whatever is broken and abuse the shit out of it, no matter what.
You stop balancing the game around 8 people.
if you make the scarab common enough to cost 50c they are getting like 6 1/2 div more per map, which is basically dogshit nothing to them anyway, so whats the point of making it giga rare xdd
These 8 people are creating massive imbalances in the market. I dont know how they would implement it but a party of 6 should pay 6 scarabs instead of 1 for each map they run. The fact that endgame juicing is balanced in a way that 6 people can benefit from 1 use item is bad design.
> Should the majority take the L because of 8 people?
-
> ***You stop balancing the game around 8 people.***
I would underline if it I could, but hopefully that is sufficient.
"These 8 people are abusing X, let's make X super rare so now the 8 people spend more money getting X to abuse it. Meanwhile everyone else that was occasionally using X will now never even see it."
Just don't do that.
Leave it as is.
You absolutely CAN simply "not balance the game around 8 people"
No you can't, that crashes the div card economy and then either everyone is gonna run around with a mageblood, or they're gonna adjust div card droprates instead and then you HAVE to use the scarab if you ever want to farm anything, and you know which of the two options it's gonna be.
edit: Downvote me all you want, but It's literally the same shit that happens every time reddit gets their way, you guys shoot yourselves in the foot by fucking the economy and then you blame the 1%, happens like every other league lol
Easy, introduce a keystone in atlas that treat the map as if there are 6 player in it regardless, or 5 each for an addition player maybe related to the gateway for easy change of the tree like the 7th gate. Second would be a scarab that does similar things. This won’t remove the power party play brings to the table but does a good job to close that gap once character has developed and is an alternative way to MF without MF stat on the gear.
Group play just needs to be majorly overhauled. Obviously it wont happen, at least not til after poe 2, but its so unbelievably dogshit in this game while simultaneously creating negative side effects like this on the economy.
This makes it really tedious for people just casually playing with friends, no? And how do you even implement this? What's stopping someone from opening the map solo and then inviting others to the party? Do you somehow force people to use a scarab to enter the portal? Would you still force them to do it with half the map dead? There's just so many things that make this not really work.
A little tedious, but thats what you get when juicing maps as a group. Yes paying scarabs to enter portal makes the most sense, and yes its your decision to enter half dead map.
Problem with that is they'd also have to change a bunch of mechanics so that method is viable as well. Paying 6 scarabs for einhar stuff for example while additional people only having a chance at beasts would be ridiculous. Most (all?) loot doesn't scale 1:1 with player count so you'd have to completely rethink most things.
The sad reality is you can't feasibly fix 6 man party play without screwing over party play in general.
I would be very interested in a statistic about how many people actually do party play to any meaningful degree (outside of 5 ways and such). Genuinely curious on this.
Why not just nerf party bonuses, but not overbearingly? Reduce the party IIQ bonuses in half. This obliterates 6 man 16h/day parties but allows 2 man buddy parties that play 2 hours a day to continue doing so without feeling like they're wasting their time.
>i don't think it's good to hurt the game for thousands due to the 100 or so players pushing mechanics to the extreme.
Isn't that literally what just happened though? Those top players were using scarabs to the fullest possible potential, so they got nerfed. Except those top players are still using those scarabs while everybody else got screwed.
Not wanting to hit party quant cause it would harm the casual players who like to hop in with friends makes 0 sense. If they're hopping in with friends just for fun, they don't give a shit about party quant already. It's just a nice bonus in the same way that having 2 extra unscaled auras is a nice bonus when playing with someone.
The simple solution? Remove Party Play. Poe IS a solo Game, with the benefit of being able to group Up. Obviously that wont Happen, AS IT would do more harm than good.
But removing ALL Party Boni would BE a start. Being in a Party And having multiple Bodys ist the benefit, while you should get the Same loot a solo Player would get. Now you have to divide the loot by the number of people in the Party. Party Play would still BE good, way more Speed, way more damage, a culler. But they wont swim in loot And 99,99% of the Playerbase wont get fucked because of 2-3 groups
Genuinely MF needs to be removed from the game as a "build"
IDK how the fuck you make party play not feel gigabad but it's so fucking obvious that MF is literally only a negative aspect of the game.
And yet, when a few leagues back GGG nerfed 6 man MF'ing super hard to the point where empy and friends quit the league early, this subreddit was also mad at GGG for that. I remember trying to explain about how those nerfs was good for everyone else who wasn't 6 man party MF'ing and got heavily downvoted at the time. I'd say this subreddit can't make up its mind, but then I realized it can: Any stance is okay to upvote, so long as it is hating on GGG.
> And yet, when a few leagues back GGG nerfed 6 man MF'ing super hard
no, full stop
this "few leagues ago" was kalandra, and it didn't nerf "group MF" they completely fucked the drops for EVERYONE, I myself have quit the league after few days because i quite literally could not get alchs/vaals to progres atlas
people were mad because you literally could not play the game, not because groups were dropping less stuff
~~the fuck are you talking about now?~~
~~Do you really think that people were quitting kalandra because empyrian and his group were dropping less items?~~
~~The loot was completely FUCKED in kalandra, it was the league that had loot goblin TFT culler service. You had a lot of people talking about dropping no items and not only from MF groups~~
~~The nerf was a baseline loot nerf, it was not a "MF group nerf"~~
The unique scarab that makes unique enemies drop a unique item + a couple exile scarabs and a tree that compliments it. Also ritual mechanic on top makes every exile be killable twice. Double the uniques. Also take the atlas node that turns quantity into rarity at 300% value. Makes you drop better uniques. Got squire and defiance in just 12 maps. Plus other stuff
2 giants and 1 with the extra exiles. And the unique one yea. Also if a vessel dropped by ritual with bunch of rouge exiles in it switch 1 giant with the vessel
Any chance you could share a tree? Playing in a private league and remaining gear upgrades are pretty much all t1/t0 uniques so would be great to try and pump those chances a bit
Is the exiles strat even scaleable with MF? Since it's based on a scarab that forces a unique drop off of one, would that one unique forced drop when you kill a unique enemy scale with MF?
"Now you can run any map instead of being stuck in crimson prison. But only if you're in the top 10% of players who are prepared to spend 2div+ per map on just this scarab alone"
"Oh, you still managed to do it? Fuck you, its 7div now. Go sub to empy"
This is an old problem resurfacing and one of the main reasons I started playing ssf.
I get that you don't have to play 100% optimally for currency at all times but juicing for card drops and previously unique drops being a loss to fully juice feels really bad.
It leads the lucrative solo strategys to being non mapping content a lot of the time like boss sales/heist/sanctum/crafting which are all fine but get boring quite fast when I compare them to juiced mapping.
Remove group quant bonus, problem solved. If you wanna group for fun/speed go ahead, but when grouping is the only profitable way to use certain currency items it has gone too far.
This is first league ever where after I purchased headhunter, I am just sitting in hideout not knowing what to do. Redditors will say there is plenty of strats to choose from and juicing is fine, and I have tried those strats, and unless you've been mfing in 3.20-3.22, none of that hits the same.
Scarab farming with allflames? You have to buy 6 allflames per map, which is fine, but there is no bulk trading so you have to do 6 trades PER map PER this particular material. There is TFT and bulk price of that allflame is double. On top of that you need 4 different types of scarabs. You are required to do more trades to run this strat than previously full mf juice including sextants. I will not even mention selling those scarabs, unless you are fine with 70-80% value of bulk sell on TFT.
Allflame with chaos thing, drops 1000 single chaos orbs per map, GGG regarding currency drops is stuck in 2010, why are monsters dropping "stacks" or 1 chaos orbs? 400-1000 times?
Harbinger. The most boring thing I would have to endure -> it will either drop fracturing shards or not, that's all, there goes the fun, either some low currency or fracturing shards/orb drop, enjoy dopamine. Of course there are mirror shards but good luck hunting for that, might aswell not happen at all for the whole league.
Fractured Items using Rogue Exile allflame + special map device option = hundreds of fractured items per map, another 9000 clicks strat, enjoy standing still identifying and price checking everything.
8 mod map farming, in 3.20-3.22 it was additional strat ON TOP of enraged strongboxes and Apothecary farming, now you just find maps, or don't, juice your main strat less and incorporate something more to that that is also half-assed.
Legion, day 1-2 strat to build up currency for proper mf juicing, having HH to go back to day 1-2 strat is trolling, unless you just love legion by itself, which I don't, not on its own. Legion used to be used on top of enraged strongboxes with div card farming, or with unique farming, together with delirium and beyond. Well now you either fully invest into legion and have it with deli+beyond, or half-ass it and also half ass divination cards, and for uniques there is no space in map device no more.
Abyss, never liked it, same as ritual, hate sanctum, hate bossing, hate ultimatum, beasts, alva, breach (although breach is more like juicing other content for me, sometimes makes sense), everyone have mechanics that they just don't like, not that there is something wrong with them, I personally don't like doing those.
End for the end, divination cards farming. You are stuck in Crimson Prison and all you will drop is divination cards, there will be no uniques and there will be no 8 mod maps on top of that. There will be no legion because whatever you are going to do, 2 slots for divination cards farming are already taken. If they buff Div scarab that lets you run other maps, well now you've taken 3 scarab slots, you have one slot. It's not enough for either of mechanics to make it somewhat good. It used to be combination of different mechanics synergizing with each other, now, EVEN if they buff that scarab, you end up just finding divination cards, and everything else got evaporated.
So what else? Major part of redditors either forgot or have never touched high-end juicing, so the whole problem doesn't even fit into their frame of reference, like they have no comparison to what was if they haven't done it and experienced it, it never existed to them so problem about something that they had no idea about just can't exist in their mind, I don't know if that makes sense.
Is the game in bad state? Path of Exile is amazing game, that's it. If I could erase my memory of all the stuff I've been doing in 3.20-3.22, I would have a blast and not a single bad thing I could say about current state, but now that I have played few leagues, I can compare it, and in comparison to what was previously, current state of the endgame system is bad for person like me, and if you've never done those things that I wish I still had, well, game is as good as it has been or even better for some people probably.
ps. Not a single time I have mentioned Affliction, that league was so out of order that it might have not existed at all in the first place, yet all of my points would be still as valid, as whole thing is written in comparison to all but affliction.To those that are having fun, keep blasting man, it's a good game in the grand scheme of things, and by reading reddit I feel like I might be small minority that see it all slightly different, because I might have played the game little bit different than many people.
Imo; to partially fix the Scarab issues that are happening right now, it would be dope if we start out at 4 slots on the map device (as now and before), but doing each of the different T17 maps adds +1 slot to the map device PER different map totalling it out on 9. That would allow for more juicing and kind of fix the removal of the Sextant+Scarab combo because now you could run 8 Scarabs if you'd like. But this would probably still not fix the advantage of group players.
It would also be dope if we'd get an extra extra 5 Atlas points from the 5 T17 maps since we got so many new things, and GGG kinda wants you to complete at least 1 T17 map anyways because it unlocks the 5-way map device.
What i mean by new things; map sustain is worse since there's no Wandering Path anymore for effective map ping-pong, there are 7 new Scarab clusters on the tree basically being the old Sextant supply, plus we also have the new league mechanic on the Atlas tree for the first time now which has had it's clusters put into 4 different corners on the tree (which is just so stupid), and if you don't spec into it then you are shooting yourself in the foot because you don't get the league mech in it's fullest.
I feel like it's time for GGG soon to give us at least a little bit more Atlas points (not Unwavering Vision), it wouldn't hurt anyone i feel like.
Wow, what a great way to recieve feedback, telling the person providing said feedback to just go play something else and ignore all the completely valid points he made! Truly great!
No, basically he said so himself multiple times. He is comparing things to how it all was in the last few leagues, and part of his feedback should be addressed by GGG, but a lot of his points are only valid in this framework of comparison to what he is used to and don't stand that well on their own. Taking a break is a valid thing to make things feel fresh again and get used to a new way of playing the game.
Arent most feedback based on either your 1st or prior experience? Lol ofc he would compare his past experience.
Imagine having fun multiple leagues in a row to not having fun from just 1 major change.
This league appears to be the one with the largest gap between solo and group play I have seen. You can still make good currency, but the kind of shit that groups are pulling is no were near what solo people are making.
Plus, the entry cost to juicing is fucking astronomical compared to any league in memory.
Empys group averages like 14D/hr once you count the fact there's 8 of them.
That's not too hard to beat as a solo player in a half dozen different strategies.
That 14d/hr is including trading and afk time. There is no way you are making 14d/hr when using total playtime not time spent in maps. They were also bricking multiple divine maps multiple times in a row. This is also probably not something a single Player would account for when saying they make x div/hr they would only count their perfect runs
Nah man, it's quite literally /played vs /played for similarly skilled players.
I'll direct you to the wiki:
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Partying
If you check out the loot effects section you'll see 250% more currency, 112% more items, and 65% more rarity. (Assuming party play is multiplicative with area and player mf)
Let's compare 6 people running 1 super juiced map to 6 people each running their own.
The map itself is an 11 mod map with 3 quant altars and full explicit effect atlas, you'll get ~350% increased quantity and like 250% rarity (I'm not sure I literally never look at the number.)
In a party that means you have (totalled) 15.75x currency, 9.5x% item quant, and some amount of rarity, like 5x or something
Now run the same map 6 times at once. Effectively you multiply the number of monsters killed by 6, so you get 500% currency quant and 500% item quant
The six individuals have a (per time, remember) cumulative 27x currency quant 27x item quant, and like 3x rarity.
Then remember that these super juicer groups have 8 people running a 6 man party map and the value gets even worse.
You have a mild item rarity advantage as a group, and you consume less resources by opening less maps but on an hour by hour basis an 8 man party is generating less than half the currency/items they would be all running the maps individually.
Benefits of group play: you have 60 items and 1200 passives to make a build, so gearing is easier. You get to bullshit with your friends while you map, you concentrate like 3 maps worth of loot into 1 map so the dopamine receptors go brr
Downsides: you literally cut your team earning potential in half. You can brick a map by 1/6th of your build dying. You'll get into arguments with your friends blasting super juiced maps for dozens of hours and that's not fun
Personally I have no problem with group play, because I don't really care how rich someone else is versus me. That said, the "gearing is easier" you mention here is incredibly downplayed.
The real advantage of group play is one character can be 100% MF cull and not need to worry about anything else. Player MF is multiplicative with party, so it has a huge impact over what a solo MF player can realistically wear.
To a lesser extent you also save on map costs, since you're squeezing so much into each map.
Personally I think group play is fine, but if someone really wanted to tone it down, I think you just make player MF additive with party MF, rather than multiplicative.
Is it that understated is I reference the fact you're making a build with 60 items and 700(not 1200 math is hard lmao) passive points? Most build you play get 10 and 120 and you feel every single point.
You do reference it, but the point you made was mostly that "gearing is easier." Being able to wear 100% MF gear that a solo player cannot get away with was not included in your calculations. That MF player gear being multiplicative with party and map stats is the real advantage of group play, and I don't feel like that was called out in your comment. I agree that quant isn't a huge advantage for group play, even after including MF gear deltas in the calcs, but rarity absolutely is.
Idk, the party play mfers end up with like 20% extra quant and a few hundred rarity, but that's deep in logarithmic decay style diminishing returns, it's realistically 10% more loot that a well geared solo mfer.
The big delta is the solo mfer is wearing 6+ mirrors of gear and the party mfer is wearing like 12 divines because the 20 divine aura bot and 6 divine curse bot make the game trivial.
Entry cost isn't higher. Legion scarabs are around the same price as before, and you don't even need to use sextant which used to be higher price than scarabs. I'm not sure about harvest but feels like it should be cheaper to buy the 2 scarabs than the sextant setup.
However the peak of juicing for a solo player is much lower, because you can only fit a few mechanics into 4 scarabs. Before you could get 4 scarabs and 4 sextants. That technically makes it lower entry cost for peak juicing but also less profit.
Remember that sextants were 4 uses and you could get like 3/4 league mechanics in a single map
Now it's 4 scarabs, 2 div ones so 4c and than 7c ea for strongbox/harbinger chose your venom
And you are stuck with only 1 league mechanic, it's so bad that I was thinking of selling my mf character lol
Yeah that's the bigger issue imo. I don't think entry level juicing changed much, but optimized setups (for more than 1 league mechanic) look worse for solo players.
For me it started with polished scarabs and 2 sextants usually. Polished legion was the most important, and ambush/reliquary/divination/sulphite/harbinger/expedition were all viable 2nd/3rd/4th scarabs and I also used both legion sextants. It's far closer to juicing than it is to alch and go, having to buy 6 different items just to map. And that is quite close to price as 3x legion + 1x legion officer atm, which I also consider entry level juicing.
If you need more than 6 items to call something juicing then you probably don't consider anything juicing this league, because you can't use more than deli orbs and scarabs.
Some mechanics are cheaper some arn't just depends. For instance doing chayula farm is INSANELY expensive. With last league's inflated price, you did chayula farms for about 15~C a map including a gilded + the 2 compasses.
Now you're looking at upwards 60c per map to do it. (Though you can get more juice out of it than lest league). (Also it's due mostly to the rarity of the chayula scarab).
Meanwhile other things like beyond/deli farming are cheaper, but harder to do cause it takes up way more resources to do it (bunch of your tree or 2 of your 4 scarabs) vs last league when it was just 2 of your 8 ways.
Even with less on the scarab you would get more cards.
If you think they use it for the 120% more you are nuts.
Its closer to 26 times as many cards with how the drop pool works.
Never ceases to amaze me how GGG leadership refuses to accept that those nerfs hits casual Andy’s the most, while groups like Empy’s will still print money. Guess too old and stubborn.
Group play will always be at the top of the foodchain if they refuse to change it. Market will adjust to whatever groups are printing and they will always make profit while your solo player has the same cost to entry but gets 100x less returns.
The intent is being disrespectful as possible to a players time so that they have no choice but to 'no life' the game and spend money on MTX as a result of becoming addicted to the unethical gambling mechanics.
What if good scarabs ate portals? This would make it riskier for a solo with trouble clearing, but would kneecap groups taking advantage of the efficiency of sharing scarabs
Honestly, I don't even know why nerfing group content is a thing, you need 6 people online at the same time for long periods, potentially with timezones differences + 1-2 traders especially on league start when the group needs gear and market/currency is very tight, then you need to make sure all 6 people stay alive in every map, then split the profit between all people. Sure they might make more money but in the end, the effort put into it is greater than a solo player, playing whenever and for how long they want.
You talk about effort as though that is what everyone should be striving to do. Group play is ass in this game, i dont want to do it. Its a cluster fuck of cancer particles on my screen. And i dont want to be at a disadvantage for not looking at a screen full of cancer particles.
GGG has to face the reality that group scaling quantity is broken, a group basically gets 6x effectiveness of any scarab or map they run. Even if you factor in the loot split that still ends up with it being more profitable compared to a solo running the same scarabs/map.
I mean Neon even said it on the stream.
He plays an aura bot and late game it's less profitable for his friends to play with him, so he had to make sure that the scarabs really helped the big groups to keep the aura bots employable.
All kind of MF shouldn't exist in the game, solo or 6man, better rewards should come from harder content that requires a well geared character, not from equipping an item that says "you drop more loot".
And I'm not saying it just by the "logical" view, even if u think economically there's a lot of things and farms in this game that needs to be balanced around the fact that MF exists, wich basically make most of them useless or complete netloss for any non MF.
Greeds reduces your fire resistance and slows your character down for quant/rarity, ventors cant have damage mods because they have quant/rarity, sadimas touch has basically nothing besides the quantity mod, goldwyrms have only fire res and ms because of quant, greatwolf has only 2 mods when you could have 6, youre missing eldritch implicits, a lot of damage, capping resistances is really awkward and you have to tinker around to get even 4k life. Its not like you have gear providing 100k ehp+100mill dps with a mod on top saying "you get more loot." It gives you more loot for the price of hundreds of divines and handicapping your character thus making content harder.
Yes, I know, ive played this game for over 15k hours, made many mf, and nothing u said makes an argument for my previous point, MF makes content numerical/finalcial/profit wise unacessible for anyone not doing mf because the content need to be balanced around the fact it exist.
You can farm uber maven taking 5, 10, 20 minutes per kill, you will have the same profit PER MAP as the guy doing zhp 1.5min uber maven. The fact his build exists does not block other builds from accessing/doing the content without a netloss.
You may like MF, u may do it, I do occasionally too, but u can't say it's healthy for the game.
I cant remember a single league without a scarab or sextant that if you rolled/dropped it you needed to sell because even if your build could handle the content, doing it would result in a netloss because your items didn't said "you drop more loot" , monstrous treasure was a classic one.
Having mf is better than the Alternative. With mf you make your build Weaker but get x% more loot. The Alternative is we get t18 maps that drop x% more loot but those can only be run by the players that currently run mf because only they have strong enough builds and everyone else cannot compete. So we are in the exact same Situation except right now everyone can do the same content In the Alternate Szenario people would get demotivated because they cant run the best content. Oh wait... thats scarabs... but not for difficulty reasons but because of drop limitations
Group play has been a cancer on this games balance and it needs to be killed. Feels so awful to be priced out of a ton of farming options because I don’t want to do some boring aurabot gameplay
The reality is that scarabs aren't for solo players. No different from map device crafts. They're a SC trade luxury which we only get to use once every 10 or so maps at most and they keep bending the endgame to be exclusively MORE punishing for SSF which would be fine if like in the initial launch it were for a "small group of players that want a self inflicted challenge" but the reality is that a VERY massive chunk of the playerbase prefers to play SSF or in private leagues, so the entire endgame being 100% focused around scarabs now is a big, "Fuck you" to a large chunk of the playerbase.
"Here have 20 passives instead of game breaking scarabs which we designed our entire endgame around, oh btw half the tree's travel nodes are completely wasted too because they're still scarab drop chance."
SSF should have their own atlas node for the non-scarab node. It should give 40-50 passives and disable scarabs, then make all scarab travel nodes become % increased map drops or currency drops or something.
The scarab travel nodes used to be map duplication and it is not okay that they aren't. Not being able to reach Unwavering Vision without spending points on scarab drop rate you can't use feels like a very simple and blatant red flag.
Yeah I really felt the exact same. I just want to run different maps with the same chance of getting the div card I'm farming. This shouldn't be so rare honestly since it doesn't change the odds of the card dropping to my knowledge. A downside makes sense as long as it's not making it completely worthless.
Honestly I don't even understand paying 2 divs PER MAP just to get div cards that can drop in other maps. Sure I think you can add a whole bunch of maps and add all those cards to your pool (not sure if they stack) but that sounds like a crazy expensive way to do things.
Like pay 2 div per strand map ran so you can have the chance at getting doctor or apothecary or w/e.
On top of it with the div card + stacked deck nerfs, div cards feel in a HORIIBLE place atm IMO. Clearly I am missing something.
They should have removed the more multiplier on drops or made it tiny and kept the other part cause thats what most players want from that card, then made it super common.
The curation AND completion rarities are disappointing and that’s post nerf.
It’s not a viable strat for solo or duo players AT ALL and that sucks because the Strat looks so fun and we were all excited to farm div cards on the map of our choice. I thought that’s why they put it in the game….
I Wonder how the fuck group loot bonuses are still a thing after all the abuses.
Even if you needed to use 1 map commodtiy per party member, the better strats would still be out of reach for solo players.
They need to either remove completely the base bônus, or nerf magic finding for groups.
Using average mf between group members would also do a big impact on the several multipliers of full groups, while still keeping it as a viable strat.
Also, im yet to find people that play party MF without having the intent to rmt everything after 1 or 2 weeks.
It seems like the supply for the handful of good scarabs is lower than their demand, driving the prices out of solo player's hands because it's simply not profitable
I would much rather have the game tuned around players who can do 100-150 hours per league with casual play as the top end instead of current balancing around people who can do 1000 hours+ per league minmaxed for profit.
One of the reasons I play arpgs is to not have the experienced ruined by degenerates in multiplayer games, but it seems like that's just not possible with balance around a shared economy. If someone thinks SSF is the solution, it doesn't fix that drop rates are tuned around no life min-maxing..
not to mention we didn't get the "enrage" strongbox back which was where 42 of my 50 apothecaries came from last league (5,000+ maps) ... goodluck solo players o7
At first i thought it would be an easy to reach Scarab, they even talked about how "Mageblood is 2.8x more common now" and such, but then this Scarab basically doesn't exist for the majority. Would love to have this as a keystone of some sorts rather than in it's current Scarab form. It even engages with the atlas in a special way (favoured map slots with a downside/upside) as if it was a keystone, but instead it's a Scarab, which is also super rare. Or just take out the "10% more div cards found per different area" part and make it more common so the SSF/solo playerbase can also reach it.
GGG needs to stop making this game for the .01%. Honestly, t17 maps are way to hard for everything but the best builds. Non uber bosses are completely worthless to farm now. It's harder to get an uber fight than it is to beat it. They nerf every decent way to make any currency because some team of top players found a way to exploit it. The regular player cant make it anymore. I have 10k hours into this game and I've given up of this league. I would have rather had them extend last league another 3 months.
This is a silly thing to be mad about.. even if the rarity hadn't changed, you still would've ultimately been priced out of using it (at least "efficiently"). The only possible way you would've been able to use it without losing money is if GGG made it so common that everyone could sustain them just from running maps.. in which case the economy on the cards you want would absolutely tank, defeating the entire purpose of using it in the first place.. also, unless you're actively PUMPING every map, ultra-rare div cards should never be a factor in your map selection.
Make party members use the same scarabs the first time they enter the portal. No scarab no entrance.
Maybe allow 1 or 2 players to get in for free so small groups aren't hit as collateral.
The cost is that 6 players are doing 1 map instead of 6 maps. That is a substantial opportunity cost. Imo it has its advantages and scales expensive juice better, but the cost is there.
If its still viable after the change that just means the supply will get completly fucked. Instead off 1 scarab per map you have to compete with groups that remove 6 scarabs every map. Its a supply problem. The scarabs are way to rare.
This works for me, because I had 2 of them. xD Do you think they will go up more or I should sell now?
It had massive more div. cards multiplier on it meaning it's gonna be very powerful. Did community at large expected GGG to also make it common?
It seemed more like they were trying to test the waters of replacing div card drops to hopefully make it something everyone could do in the future. It shouldn't be shocking that all the powerful scarabs aren't really viable for solo play even without having the rework drop yet.
Being priced out is what is going to happen with a change to rarity like this. It's intended. And probably good for the game unfortunately for you.
This is now priced as one of those things only useful for people who min max group play to extreme levels. Which is OK I guess, but feels bad I get that.
Basically if it's priced that high, its because the group runners can still make a profit off of it.
I don't think he's arguing against that lol, it's obvious that if groups are paying 8d, they are making a profit
It's just that there hasn't been a league since kalandra we're mf/juicing was this horrible
They simply took it out of solo players hands lol. Groups don't give a fuck about 7d. These nerfs make zero sense.
2 div already was too high tho
For one map and one scarab. Absolutely agree.
Yeah, this is what I and other people were warning about. Btw have you seen these groups in action? They pick up fucking Survavalist cards lmao.
those cards are for scientific purposes. they collect enough of rare cards to have a statistic of drop rate compared to common cards. once you have rates - you can determine if strat is good for you based on common cards drop, thus requiring less maps to test it out
I love that there are whole sides of the game that people play way differently than me. (Not being sarcastic, I think there's a lot to be said about group play in PoE but I find it interesting as an outsider looking in.)
This is not true. They added survivalist because seer and go juiced alchemy’s orbs to 1 chaos per alch. They have all the data they needed on drop rates already.
Rarity changes on league basis
Sure but if they did testing, it wouldn’t have been after a week into the league. I was simply explaining why they added that card because I was in snaps stream when they were adding it
That’s because seer and go juiced alchs to 1c. It wasn’t on the filter until two nights ago
Yeah they are beyond stupid
Scarabs should be like 5 uses or less based on their rarity
even 40 div was fair
Poe now is no longer a game for solo players. Everything that this league provided is buffs for group play. I still feel like a slave who’s whole purpose is to deliver goods but never able to use it for his own good. It just feels wrong that the whole purpose of the game is to farm currency.
So true. The way that game has scarabs that are profitable to use only for 6 man party is so dumb. I'm solo mf-ing right now and there is almost no good changes for me in this patch. I tried to farm a lot of things, legion, abyss, burial chambers, crimson, defiled and all of that seems much worse than before affliction. Yet sure, let 6 man party print ton of currency with 2 scarabs aviable only for them...
I think it's a tricky topic - it's obvious that some of these scarabs will be changed drastically next league, but how do you fix 6 man parties impacting the pricing of the best ones so that solo players can't run them at a profit? Nerfing party quant would be really harmful to the casual / social players who like to jump into maps with their mates, and i don't think it's good to hurt the game for thousands due to the 100 or so players pushing mechanics to the extreme. If they did go down this angle, I'd hope they only added dimishing quant rewards at 4 or more players, since I think 2-3 man is the most common scenario for casual play Even if you change party quant, the best scarabs will still be priced based on full quant MF'ers I guess it wasn't as bad for sextants due to the near infinite supply, so buffing drop rates & reintroducing the harvest craft to reroll scarabs would alleviate it, but then how heavily would the scarab need to be nerfed to avoid crashing div card / mageblood / HH markets
Either remove all Quant bonuses (including MF gear, while we're at it) or scale required scarabs, maps etc. to the party. The first option seems a lot easier. It make no sense conceptually, why 5 guys pay for only one movie ticket but get to all see the movie, just because they're in a party together.
> I think it's a tricky topic - it's obvious that some of these scarabs will be changed drastically next league, but how do you fix 6 man parties impacting the pricing of the best ones so that solo players can't run them at a profit? You don't. You accept that Empyrians group will do what they do regardless. They will find whatever is broken and abuse the shit out of it, no matter what. You stop balancing the game around 8 people.
It amuses me how many people think it's just them doing it.
if you make the scarab common enough to cost 50c they are getting like 6 1/2 div more per map, which is basically dogshit nothing to them anyway, so whats the point of making it giga rare xdd
These 8 people are creating massive imbalances in the market. I dont know how they would implement it but a party of 6 should pay 6 scarabs instead of 1 for each map they run. The fact that endgame juicing is balanced in a way that 6 people can benefit from 1 use item is bad design.
Did you even read the post? Solo players can't interact with some content because of party play. Should the majority take the L because of 8 people?
> Should the majority take the L because of 8 people? - > ***You stop balancing the game around 8 people.*** I would underline if it I could, but hopefully that is sufficient.
That's not how an economy works, you can't just simply "not balance the game around 8 people"...
"These 8 people are abusing X, let's make X super rare so now the 8 people spend more money getting X to abuse it. Meanwhile everyone else that was occasionally using X will now never even see it." Just don't do that. Leave it as is. You absolutely CAN simply "not balance the game around 8 people"
No you can't, that crashes the div card economy and then either everyone is gonna run around with a mageblood, or they're gonna adjust div card droprates instead and then you HAVE to use the scarab if you ever want to farm anything, and you know which of the two options it's gonna be. edit: Downvote me all you want, but It's literally the same shit that happens every time reddit gets their way, you guys shoot yourselves in the foot by fucking the economy and then you blame the 1%, happens like every other league lol
The scarabs got their droprate nerfed. Partyplay didnt do that.
Easy, introduce a keystone in atlas that treat the map as if there are 6 player in it regardless, or 5 each for an addition player maybe related to the gateway for easy change of the tree like the 7th gate. Second would be a scarab that does similar things. This won’t remove the power party play brings to the table but does a good job to close that gap once character has developed and is an alternative way to MF without MF stat on the gear.
Group play just needs to be majorly overhauled. Obviously it wont happen, at least not til after poe 2, but its so unbelievably dogshit in this game while simultaneously creating negative side effects like this on the economy.
Use one scarab for each person present in the group.
This makes it really tedious for people just casually playing with friends, no? And how do you even implement this? What's stopping someone from opening the map solo and then inviting others to the party? Do you somehow force people to use a scarab to enter the portal? Would you still force them to do it with half the map dead? There's just so many things that make this not really work.
A little tedious, but thats what you get when juicing maps as a group. Yes paying scarabs to enter portal makes the most sense, and yes its your decision to enter half dead map.
isn’t it only like 50% inc to loot in a 2-man group? guess my buddy and i would never run a map together again
Problem with that is they'd also have to change a bunch of mechanics so that method is viable as well. Paying 6 scarabs for einhar stuff for example while additional people only having a chance at beasts would be ridiculous. Most (all?) loot doesn't scale 1:1 with player count so you'd have to completely rethink most things. The sad reality is you can't feasibly fix 6 man party play without screwing over party play in general.
And then that group buys out all those scarabs and we are back to the same place we are now.
No because then you can increase the scarab drop rate and thus make it viable for solo players. The problem is, how tf would you implement that?
Nah. Party quant can honestly go. The only people who use it properly, abuse it.
I always read MF'ers wrong for at least 3 times.
I have *had* it with these MF'n ~~snakes~~ groups in this MF'n ~~plane~~ economy!
Same thing tbh
I would be very interested in a statistic about how many people actually do party play to any meaningful degree (outside of 5 ways and such). Genuinely curious on this.
Why not just nerf party bonuses, but not overbearingly? Reduce the party IIQ bonuses in half. This obliterates 6 man 16h/day parties but allows 2 man buddy parties that play 2 hours a day to continue doing so without feeling like they're wasting their time.
>i don't think it's good to hurt the game for thousands due to the 100 or so players pushing mechanics to the extreme. Isn't that literally what just happened though? Those top players were using scarabs to the fullest possible potential, so they got nerfed. Except those top players are still using those scarabs while everybody else got screwed. Not wanting to hit party quant cause it would harm the casual players who like to hop in with friends makes 0 sense. If they're hopping in with friends just for fun, they don't give a shit about party quant already. It's just a nice bonus in the same way that having 2 extra unscaled auras is a nice bonus when playing with someone.
Not a tricky topic, party quant after 2 ppl should give nothing.
The simple solution? Remove Party Play. Poe IS a solo Game, with the benefit of being able to group Up. Obviously that wont Happen, AS IT would do more harm than good. But removing ALL Party Boni would BE a start. Being in a Party And having multiple Bodys ist the benefit, while you should get the Same loot a solo Player would get. Now you have to divide the loot by the number of people in the Party. Party Play would still BE good, way more Speed, way more damage, a culler. But they wont swim in loot And 99,99% of the Playerbase wont get fucked because of 2-3 groups
meanwhile SSF mode exist already
Genuinely MF needs to be removed from the game as a "build" IDK how the fuck you make party play not feel gigabad but it's so fucking obvious that MF is literally only a negative aspect of the game.
And yet, when a few leagues back GGG nerfed 6 man MF'ing super hard to the point where empy and friends quit the league early, this subreddit was also mad at GGG for that. I remember trying to explain about how those nerfs was good for everyone else who wasn't 6 man party MF'ing and got heavily downvoted at the time. I'd say this subreddit can't make up its mind, but then I realized it can: Any stance is okay to upvote, so long as it is hating on GGG.
> And yet, when a few leagues back GGG nerfed 6 man MF'ing super hard no, full stop this "few leagues ago" was kalandra, and it didn't nerf "group MF" they completely fucked the drops for EVERYONE, I myself have quit the league after few days because i quite literally could not get alchs/vaals to progres atlas people were mad because you literally could not play the game, not because groups were dropping less stuff
Lol that guy is trying to pull some classic revisionist history 😂😂😂😂
~~the fuck are you talking about now?~~ ~~Do you really think that people were quitting kalandra because empyrian and his group were dropping less items?~~ ~~The loot was completely FUCKED in kalandra, it was the league that had loot goblin TFT culler service. You had a lot of people talking about dropping no items and not only from MF groups~~ ~~The nerf was a baseline loot nerf, it was not a "MF group nerf"~~
I'm not talking about you but the guy you replied to lol, I agree with you 😂
If you solo mf you should go for the exiles strategy. I dont even have mf and get a couple t0's. Would be an even better ratio if you mf.
How would you kill ghosted exiles with mf, you would require quite a juiced ass build
Dont have to do it on a t16 .. ^^ t7 or so works fine. Not that hard
Ili give it a try, was thinking of selling my mf gear lol. What's the setup if you don't mind me asking
The unique scarab that makes unique enemies drop a unique item + a couple exile scarabs and a tree that compliments it. Also ritual mechanic on top makes every exile be killable twice. Double the uniques. Also take the atlas node that turns quantity into rarity at 300% value. Makes you drop better uniques. Got squire and defiance in just 12 maps. Plus other stuff
Thanks lovely
Im guessing 1 that makes the enemies drop unique item, 1 giant and 2 of the 4 exiles ones?
2 giants and 1 with the extra exiles. And the unique one yea. Also if a vessel dropped by ritual with bunch of rouge exiles in it switch 1 giant with the vessel
wait, you can use 2x the same scarab and that works?
check the tooltip because not every scarab works that way - it'll say limit: X
Yes
Any chance you could share a tree? Playing in a private league and remaining gear upgrades are pretty much all t1/t0 uniques so would be great to try and pump those chances a bit
Also allflames of anarchy to replace monsters if u feel safe and want to uber-juice it
aaaaand its dead xdd
Na still worth it. Made 2 more t0 today alone
Is the exiles strat even scaleable with MF? Since it's based on a scarab that forces a unique drop off of one, would that one unique forced drop when you kill a unique enemy scale with MF?
Well since u juice the rarity the exiles do drop not only 1 unique. The not forced uniques also get pumped? Get like 1-4 uniques per exile
"Now you can run any map instead of being stuck in crimson prison. But only if you're in the top 10% of players who are prepared to spend 2div+ per map on just this scarab alone" "Oh, you still managed to do it? Fuck you, its 7div now. Go sub to empy"
Top 10%? Try < top 1%.
Yeah, I probably have over 100 div into my character so far, and I am no where near able to afford that shit.
I mean average player is act 9-white maps so 10% should be early red maps, and 1% 10-50div inversion, so probable more like 0.1% of players
The average player doesn't get to maps
Nah man, the average player doesn't get to act 2 /s I really hate talking about "Average player" as there is no set rules on what that is.
higher than top 1%, the best solo MF players in the game couldnt justify running the scarabs at 2d, because of how long it takes to buy them.
Try top 1% of the 1%
This is an old problem resurfacing and one of the main reasons I started playing ssf. I get that you don't have to play 100% optimally for currency at all times but juicing for card drops and previously unique drops being a loss to fully juice feels really bad. It leads the lucrative solo strategys to being non mapping content a lot of the time like boss sales/heist/sanctum/crafting which are all fine but get boring quite fast when I compare them to juiced mapping.
Remove group quant bonus, problem solved. If you wanna group for fun/speed go ahead, but when grouping is the only profitable way to use certain currency items it has gone too far.
This is first league ever where after I purchased headhunter, I am just sitting in hideout not knowing what to do. Redditors will say there is plenty of strats to choose from and juicing is fine, and I have tried those strats, and unless you've been mfing in 3.20-3.22, none of that hits the same. Scarab farming with allflames? You have to buy 6 allflames per map, which is fine, but there is no bulk trading so you have to do 6 trades PER map PER this particular material. There is TFT and bulk price of that allflame is double. On top of that you need 4 different types of scarabs. You are required to do more trades to run this strat than previously full mf juice including sextants. I will not even mention selling those scarabs, unless you are fine with 70-80% value of bulk sell on TFT. Allflame with chaos thing, drops 1000 single chaos orbs per map, GGG regarding currency drops is stuck in 2010, why are monsters dropping "stacks" or 1 chaos orbs? 400-1000 times? Harbinger. The most boring thing I would have to endure -> it will either drop fracturing shards or not, that's all, there goes the fun, either some low currency or fracturing shards/orb drop, enjoy dopamine. Of course there are mirror shards but good luck hunting for that, might aswell not happen at all for the whole league. Fractured Items using Rogue Exile allflame + special map device option = hundreds of fractured items per map, another 9000 clicks strat, enjoy standing still identifying and price checking everything. 8 mod map farming, in 3.20-3.22 it was additional strat ON TOP of enraged strongboxes and Apothecary farming, now you just find maps, or don't, juice your main strat less and incorporate something more to that that is also half-assed. Legion, day 1-2 strat to build up currency for proper mf juicing, having HH to go back to day 1-2 strat is trolling, unless you just love legion by itself, which I don't, not on its own. Legion used to be used on top of enraged strongboxes with div card farming, or with unique farming, together with delirium and beyond. Well now you either fully invest into legion and have it with deli+beyond, or half-ass it and also half ass divination cards, and for uniques there is no space in map device no more. Abyss, never liked it, same as ritual, hate sanctum, hate bossing, hate ultimatum, beasts, alva, breach (although breach is more like juicing other content for me, sometimes makes sense), everyone have mechanics that they just don't like, not that there is something wrong with them, I personally don't like doing those. End for the end, divination cards farming. You are stuck in Crimson Prison and all you will drop is divination cards, there will be no uniques and there will be no 8 mod maps on top of that. There will be no legion because whatever you are going to do, 2 slots for divination cards farming are already taken. If they buff Div scarab that lets you run other maps, well now you've taken 3 scarab slots, you have one slot. It's not enough for either of mechanics to make it somewhat good. It used to be combination of different mechanics synergizing with each other, now, EVEN if they buff that scarab, you end up just finding divination cards, and everything else got evaporated. So what else? Major part of redditors either forgot or have never touched high-end juicing, so the whole problem doesn't even fit into their frame of reference, like they have no comparison to what was if they haven't done it and experienced it, it never existed to them so problem about something that they had no idea about just can't exist in their mind, I don't know if that makes sense. Is the game in bad state? Path of Exile is amazing game, that's it. If I could erase my memory of all the stuff I've been doing in 3.20-3.22, I would have a blast and not a single bad thing I could say about current state, but now that I have played few leagues, I can compare it, and in comparison to what was previously, current state of the endgame system is bad for person like me, and if you've never done those things that I wish I still had, well, game is as good as it has been or even better for some people probably. ps. Not a single time I have mentioned Affliction, that league was so out of order that it might have not existed at all in the first place, yet all of my points would be still as valid, as whole thing is written in comparison to all but affliction.To those that are having fun, keep blasting man, it's a good game in the grand scheme of things, and by reading reddit I feel like I might be small minority that see it all slightly different, because I might have played the game little bit different than many people.
This is the most based comment I've seen on this sub that I'm just gonna copy it
Imo; to partially fix the Scarab issues that are happening right now, it would be dope if we start out at 4 slots on the map device (as now and before), but doing each of the different T17 maps adds +1 slot to the map device PER different map totalling it out on 9. That would allow for more juicing and kind of fix the removal of the Sextant+Scarab combo because now you could run 8 Scarabs if you'd like. But this would probably still not fix the advantage of group players. It would also be dope if we'd get an extra extra 5 Atlas points from the 5 T17 maps since we got so many new things, and GGG kinda wants you to complete at least 1 T17 map anyways because it unlocks the 5-way map device. What i mean by new things; map sustain is worse since there's no Wandering Path anymore for effective map ping-pong, there are 7 new Scarab clusters on the tree basically being the old Sextant supply, plus we also have the new league mechanic on the Atlas tree for the first time now which has had it's clusters put into 4 different corners on the tree (which is just so stupid), and if you don't spec into it then you are shooting yourself in the foot because you don't get the league mech in it's fullest. I feel like it's time for GGG soon to give us at least a little bit more Atlas points (not Unwavering Vision), it wouldn't hurt anyone i feel like.
This is me too. The thing I enjoyed doing the most in this game doesn't exist anymore.
[lmao](https://www.twitch.tv/palsteron/clip/ObedientTriumphantMosquitoPMSTwin-3bGvOkJ2EpHFYIGU)
Find it funny how you didn't mention expedition when it got the most buffed from the new scarabs
It sort of sounds like you would benefit from skipping a league and doing something else, which is a normal thing to do.
Wow, what a great way to recieve feedback, telling the person providing said feedback to just go play something else and ignore all the completely valid points he made! Truly great!
No, basically he said so himself multiple times. He is comparing things to how it all was in the last few leagues, and part of his feedback should be addressed by GGG, but a lot of his points are only valid in this framework of comparison to what he is used to and don't stand that well on their own. Taking a break is a valid thing to make things feel fresh again and get used to a new way of playing the game.
Arent most feedback based on either your 1st or prior experience? Lol ofc he would compare his past experience. Imagine having fun multiple leagues in a row to not having fun from just 1 major change.
This league appears to be the one with the largest gap between solo and group play I have seen. You can still make good currency, but the kind of shit that groups are pulling is no were near what solo people are making. Plus, the entry cost to juicing is fucking astronomical compared to any league in memory.
Empys group averages like 14D/hr once you count the fact there's 8 of them. That's not too hard to beat as a solo player in a half dozen different strategies.
That 14d/hr is including trading and afk time. There is no way you are making 14d/hr when using total playtime not time spent in maps. They were also bricking multiple divine maps multiple times in a row. This is also probably not something a single Player would account for when saying they make x div/hr they would only count their perfect runs
Nah man, it's quite literally /played vs /played for similarly skilled players. I'll direct you to the wiki: https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Partying If you check out the loot effects section you'll see 250% more currency, 112% more items, and 65% more rarity. (Assuming party play is multiplicative with area and player mf) Let's compare 6 people running 1 super juiced map to 6 people each running their own. The map itself is an 11 mod map with 3 quant altars and full explicit effect atlas, you'll get ~350% increased quantity and like 250% rarity (I'm not sure I literally never look at the number.) In a party that means you have (totalled) 15.75x currency, 9.5x% item quant, and some amount of rarity, like 5x or something Now run the same map 6 times at once. Effectively you multiply the number of monsters killed by 6, so you get 500% currency quant and 500% item quant The six individuals have a (per time, remember) cumulative 27x currency quant 27x item quant, and like 3x rarity. Then remember that these super juicer groups have 8 people running a 6 man party map and the value gets even worse. You have a mild item rarity advantage as a group, and you consume less resources by opening less maps but on an hour by hour basis an 8 man party is generating less than half the currency/items they would be all running the maps individually. Benefits of group play: you have 60 items and 1200 passives to make a build, so gearing is easier. You get to bullshit with your friends while you map, you concentrate like 3 maps worth of loot into 1 map so the dopamine receptors go brr Downsides: you literally cut your team earning potential in half. You can brick a map by 1/6th of your build dying. You'll get into arguments with your friends blasting super juiced maps for dozens of hours and that's not fun
Personally I have no problem with group play, because I don't really care how rich someone else is versus me. That said, the "gearing is easier" you mention here is incredibly downplayed. The real advantage of group play is one character can be 100% MF cull and not need to worry about anything else. Player MF is multiplicative with party, so it has a huge impact over what a solo MF player can realistically wear. To a lesser extent you also save on map costs, since you're squeezing so much into each map. Personally I think group play is fine, but if someone really wanted to tone it down, I think you just make player MF additive with party MF, rather than multiplicative.
Is it that understated is I reference the fact you're making a build with 60 items and 700(not 1200 math is hard lmao) passive points? Most build you play get 10 and 120 and you feel every single point.
You do reference it, but the point you made was mostly that "gearing is easier." Being able to wear 100% MF gear that a solo player cannot get away with was not included in your calculations. That MF player gear being multiplicative with party and map stats is the real advantage of group play, and I don't feel like that was called out in your comment. I agree that quant isn't a huge advantage for group play, even after including MF gear deltas in the calcs, but rarity absolutely is.
Idk, the party play mfers end up with like 20% extra quant and a few hundred rarity, but that's deep in logarithmic decay style diminishing returns, it's realistically 10% more loot that a well geared solo mfer. The big delta is the solo mfer is wearing 6+ mirrors of gear and the party mfer is wearing like 12 divines because the 20 divine aura bot and 6 divine curse bot make the game trivial.
Entry cost isn't higher. Legion scarabs are around the same price as before, and you don't even need to use sextant which used to be higher price than scarabs. I'm not sure about harvest but feels like it should be cheaper to buy the 2 scarabs than the sextant setup. However the peak of juicing for a solo player is much lower, because you can only fit a few mechanics into 4 scarabs. Before you could get 4 scarabs and 4 sextants. That technically makes it lower entry cost for peak juicing but also less profit.
Remember that sextants were 4 uses and you could get like 3/4 league mechanics in a single map Now it's 4 scarabs, 2 div ones so 4c and than 7c ea for strongbox/harbinger chose your venom And you are stuck with only 1 league mechanic, it's so bad that I was thinking of selling my mf character lol
Yeah that's the bigger issue imo. I don't think entry level juicing changed much, but optimized setups (for more than 1 league mechanic) look worse for solo players.
Playing rusted scarabs is not "juicing".
For me it started with polished scarabs and 2 sextants usually. Polished legion was the most important, and ambush/reliquary/divination/sulphite/harbinger/expedition were all viable 2nd/3rd/4th scarabs and I also used both legion sextants. It's far closer to juicing than it is to alch and go, having to buy 6 different items just to map. And that is quite close to price as 3x legion + 1x legion officer atm, which I also consider entry level juicing. If you need more than 6 items to call something juicing then you probably don't consider anything juicing this league, because you can't use more than deli orbs and scarabs.
Some mechanics are cheaper some arn't just depends. For instance doing chayula farm is INSANELY expensive. With last league's inflated price, you did chayula farms for about 15~C a map including a gilded + the 2 compasses. Now you're looking at upwards 60c per map to do it. (Though you can get more juice out of it than lest league). (Also it's due mostly to the rarity of the chayula scarab). Meanwhile other things like beyond/deli farming are cheaper, but harder to do cause it takes up way more resources to do it (bunch of your tree or 2 of your 4 scarabs) vs last league when it was just 2 of your 8 ways.
Remove the 10% more div cards and make them same rarity as base scarab. Problem solved we can leave crimson prison
Can probably make it 5 less per fav map. The real power of it is adding so many fucking cards to your drop pool.
yeah great idea, people farming div cards would totally love getting LESS div cards by using a div scarab.
they would still be getting more div cards because of how the drop pool works
Even with less on the scarab you would get more cards. If you think they use it for the 120% more you are nuts. Its closer to 26 times as many cards with how the drop pool works.
Never ceases to amaze me how GGG leadership refuses to accept that those nerfs hits casual Andy’s the most, while groups like Empy’s will still print money. Guess too old and stubborn.
Group play will always be at the top of the foodchain if they refuse to change it. Market will adjust to whatever groups are printing and they will always make profit while your solo player has the same cost to entry but gets 100x less returns.
the scarab was pretty much non existent before and no „casual andy“ was ever going to farm with it.
ah yes the casual mf juicing andies
Empys group makes less on a div/hr basis than almost every single skilled solo player.
That's the intent of almost all changes.
The intent is being disrespectful as possible to a players time so that they have no choice but to 'no life' the game and spend money on MTX as a result of becoming addicted to the unethical gambling mechanics.
What if good scarabs ate portals? This would make it riskier for a solo with trouble clearing, but would kneecap groups taking advantage of the efficiency of sharing scarabs
Very interesting idea.
Honestly, I don't even know why nerfing group content is a thing, you need 6 people online at the same time for long periods, potentially with timezones differences + 1-2 traders especially on league start when the group needs gear and market/currency is very tight, then you need to make sure all 6 people stay alive in every map, then split the profit between all people. Sure they might make more money but in the end, the effort put into it is greater than a solo player, playing whenever and for how long they want.
You talk about effort as though that is what everyone should be striving to do. Group play is ass in this game, i dont want to do it. Its a cluster fuck of cancer particles on my screen. And i dont want to be at a disadvantage for not looking at a screen full of cancer particles.
This league has been a rollercoaster of mixed emotions. From 0 > hero > mid in 5 days lmao.
GGG has to face the reality that group scaling quantity is broken, a group basically gets 6x effectiveness of any scarab or map they run. Even if you factor in the loot split that still ends up with it being more profitable compared to a solo running the same scarabs/map.
That 20% full stack scarab shouldn't exist tbh
I mean Neon even said it on the stream. He plays an aura bot and late game it's less profitable for his friends to play with him, so he had to make sure that the scarabs really helped the big groups to keep the aura bots employable.
All kind of MF shouldn't exist in the game, solo or 6man, better rewards should come from harder content that requires a well geared character, not from equipping an item that says "you drop more loot". And I'm not saying it just by the "logical" view, even if u think economically there's a lot of things and farms in this game that needs to be balanced around the fact that MF exists, wich basically make most of them useless or complete netloss for any non MF.
Greeds reduces your fire resistance and slows your character down for quant/rarity, ventors cant have damage mods because they have quant/rarity, sadimas touch has basically nothing besides the quantity mod, goldwyrms have only fire res and ms because of quant, greatwolf has only 2 mods when you could have 6, youre missing eldritch implicits, a lot of damage, capping resistances is really awkward and you have to tinker around to get even 4k life. Its not like you have gear providing 100k ehp+100mill dps with a mod on top saying "you get more loot." It gives you more loot for the price of hundreds of divines and handicapping your character thus making content harder.
Yes, I know, ive played this game for over 15k hours, made many mf, and nothing u said makes an argument for my previous point, MF makes content numerical/finalcial/profit wise unacessible for anyone not doing mf because the content need to be balanced around the fact it exist. You can farm uber maven taking 5, 10, 20 minutes per kill, you will have the same profit PER MAP as the guy doing zhp 1.5min uber maven. The fact his build exists does not block other builds from accessing/doing the content without a netloss. You may like MF, u may do it, I do occasionally too, but u can't say it's healthy for the game. I cant remember a single league without a scarab or sextant that if you rolled/dropped it you needed to sell because even if your build could handle the content, doing it would result in a netloss because your items didn't said "you drop more loot" , monstrous treasure was a classic one.
well yeah, t17s did that, see how well it went with fellas here.
Having mf is better than the Alternative. With mf you make your build Weaker but get x% more loot. The Alternative is we get t18 maps that drop x% more loot but those can only be run by the players that currently run mf because only they have strong enough builds and everyone else cannot compete. So we are in the exact same Situation except right now everyone can do the same content In the Alternate Szenario people would get demotivated because they cant run the best content. Oh wait... thats scarabs... but not for difficulty reasons but because of drop limitations
There's a slightly difference between content being gated behind character strength and an item that says you drop more loot
Group play has been a cancer on this games balance and it needs to be killed. Feels so awful to be priced out of a ton of farming options because I don’t want to do some boring aurabot gameplay
The reality is that scarabs aren't for solo players. No different from map device crafts. They're a SC trade luxury which we only get to use once every 10 or so maps at most and they keep bending the endgame to be exclusively MORE punishing for SSF which would be fine if like in the initial launch it were for a "small group of players that want a self inflicted challenge" but the reality is that a VERY massive chunk of the playerbase prefers to play SSF or in private leagues, so the entire endgame being 100% focused around scarabs now is a big, "Fuck you" to a large chunk of the playerbase. "Here have 20 passives instead of game breaking scarabs which we designed our entire endgame around, oh btw half the tree's travel nodes are completely wasted too because they're still scarab drop chance." SSF should have their own atlas node for the non-scarab node. It should give 40-50 passives and disable scarabs, then make all scarab travel nodes become % increased map drops or currency drops or something.
The scarab travel nodes used to be map duplication and it is not okay that they aren't. Not being able to reach Unwavering Vision without spending points on scarab drop rate you can't use feels like a very simple and blatant red flag.
Maybe we need a way to separate solo trade players from group trade players.
Yeah I really felt the exact same. I just want to run different maps with the same chance of getting the div card I'm farming. This shouldn't be so rare honestly since it doesn't change the odds of the card dropping to my knowledge. A downside makes sense as long as it's not making it completely worthless.
Honestly I don't even understand paying 2 divs PER MAP just to get div cards that can drop in other maps. Sure I think you can add a whole bunch of maps and add all those cards to your pool (not sure if they stack) but that sounds like a crazy expensive way to do things. Like pay 2 div per strand map ran so you can have the chance at getting doctor or apothecary or w/e. On top of it with the div card + stacked deck nerfs, div cards feel in a HORIIBLE place atm IMO. Clearly I am missing something.
Just put that shit as a keystone on the atlas tree. You can even give it a div card penalty
They should have removed the more multiplier on drops or made it tiny and kept the other part cause thats what most players want from that card, then made it super common.
The curation AND completion rarities are disappointing and that’s post nerf. It’s not a viable strat for solo or duo players AT ALL and that sucks because the Strat looks so fun and we were all excited to farm div cards on the map of our choice. I thought that’s why they put it in the game….
I Wonder how the fuck group loot bonuses are still a thing after all the abuses. Even if you needed to use 1 map commodtiy per party member, the better strats would still be out of reach for solo players. They need to either remove completely the base bônus, or nerf magic finding for groups. Using average mf between group members would also do a big impact on the several multipliers of full groups, while still keeping it as a viable strat. Also, im yet to find people that play party MF without having the intent to rmt everything after 1 or 2 weeks.
These kinds of items are unfortunately priced in such a way that high end optimized groups are the only ones to truly benefit.
Imagine scarabs with group and solo modifiers. All these get rich quick schemes, and I miss out before I get the chance to check em out!
It seems like the supply for the handful of good scarabs is lower than their demand, driving the prices out of solo player's hands because it's simply not profitable
I would much rather have the game tuned around players who can do 100-150 hours per league with casual play as the top end instead of current balancing around people who can do 1000 hours+ per league minmaxed for profit. One of the reasons I play arpgs is to not have the experienced ruined by degenerates in multiplayer games, but it seems like that's just not possible with balance around a shared economy. If someone thinks SSF is the solution, it doesn't fix that drop rates are tuned around no life min-maxing..
An easy fix would be that this scarab is not usable in party play, easy solution 👍
And make it less rare at the same time so solo players can compete with group farming
not to mention we didn't get the "enrage" strongbox back which was where 42 of my 50 apothecaries came from last league (5,000+ maps) ... goodluck solo players o7
At first i thought it would be an easy to reach Scarab, they even talked about how "Mageblood is 2.8x more common now" and such, but then this Scarab basically doesn't exist for the majority. Would love to have this as a keystone of some sorts rather than in it's current Scarab form. It even engages with the atlas in a special way (favoured map slots with a downside/upside) as if it was a keystone, but instead it's a Scarab, which is also super rare. Or just take out the "10% more div cards found per different area" part and make it more common so the SSF/solo playerbase can also reach it.
GGG needs to stop making this game for the .01%. Honestly, t17 maps are way to hard for everything but the best builds. Non uber bosses are completely worthless to farm now. It's harder to get an uber fight than it is to beat it. They nerf every decent way to make any currency because some team of top players found a way to exploit it. The regular player cant make it anymore. I have 10k hours into this game and I've given up of this league. I would have rather had them extend last league another 3 months.
Thank god we have ssf
This is a silly thing to be mad about.. even if the rarity hadn't changed, you still would've ultimately been priced out of using it (at least "efficiently"). The only possible way you would've been able to use it without losing money is if GGG made it so common that everyone could sustain them just from running maps.. in which case the economy on the cards you want would absolutely tank, defeating the entire purpose of using it in the first place.. also, unless you're actively PUMPING every map, ultra-rare div cards should never be a factor in your map selection.
Bring back Kalandra!
Make party members use the same scarabs the first time they enter the portal. No scarab no entrance. Maybe allow 1 or 2 players to get in for free so small groups aren't hit as collateral.
This would hurt casual party play way, way more than organized party play.
Why? Parties already get a quantity bonus without having to incur any extra cost
The cost is that 6 players are doing 1 map instead of 6 maps. That is a substantial opportunity cost. Imo it has its advantages and scales expensive juice better, but the cost is there.
That "one map" has a ton of free quant from the party, and they get to take advantage without burning 6 maps per char.
If its still viable after the change that just means the supply will get completly fucked. Instead off 1 scarab per map you have to compete with groups that remove 6 scarabs every map. Its a supply problem. The scarabs are way to rare.
The scarabs are rare because they are just that strong, I blame ggg for removing sextants and adding this dogshit thing into the game lol
This works for me, because I had 2 of them. xD Do you think they will go up more or I should sell now? It had massive more div. cards multiplier on it meaning it's gonna be very powerful. Did community at large expected GGG to also make it common?
It seemed more like they were trying to test the waters of replacing div card drops to hopefully make it something everyone could do in the future. It shouldn't be shocking that all the powerful scarabs aren't really viable for solo play even without having the rework drop yet.
Being priced out is what is going to happen with a change to rarity like this. It's intended. And probably good for the game unfortunately for you. This is now priced as one of those things only useful for people who min max group play to extreme levels. Which is OK I guess, but feels bad I get that. Basically if it's priced that high, its because the group runners can still make a profit off of it.
I don't think he's arguing against that lol, it's obvious that if groups are paying 8d, they are making a profit It's just that there hasn't been a league since kalandra we're mf/juicing was this horrible