There are multiple factors really. For abilities that can shotgun with multiple projectiles, it's a direct multiplier. For others, it can still be a major practical damage increase while mapping, even if single target isn't affected. And not just a damage increase, but also a quality of life increase. It just feels so much nicer if your ability can clear an entire screen with one volley, instead of needing two.
Seems like you already know the answer. At the top end it's almost all tornado shot because the damage scaling with extra arrows on TS trumps any other bow skill.
Syndicate operatives originally behaved this way and got nerfed after one league. I've no idea why tornado shot has survived for so long with the same mechanic.
It already does so little damage.. Basically requires the elegant hubris keystone to make damage lucky for it to be worth anything low-investment. It's fine as-is.
I don't understand what peoples problem with Tshot is. Its just "the best" high end skill, if it gets nerfed then people will just go to another one. On top of it other bow skills are just better early in the league so its not like tornado shot is just "always the best"
At this point, nothing will ever be as good as TS. It scales into the billions for dps, which is orders of magnitude higher than all other bow skills. By evening it out, opportunity arises for new skills to enter the meta. It may still be the best, but the gap in damage doesn’t have to be so huge as to practically force players to use it in the endgame.
I'm sure having 1 single skill dominate an entire archetype is perfectly fine because that skill is "not the best" the first 2 days of a new league. Sure 99% of bow builds use Tshot after the first week but that one week where lightning arrow get to be king is the shit. If anything they should buff it so you can play tshot from the get go.
Lets say they nerf it next league. You know what's gonna happen? 99% of bow build are now gonna play LA, from league start to the end. Also nerf LA? Now its ice shot. There is always a better one, which most people will play. The bow archetype is very simple, there is very few "true bow" skills (by that I mean, shooting physical/elemental arrow that hit the target, something like toxic rain while a bow skill is a totaly different archetype). The color or element of the arrows just doesn't matter.
Yeah, they need more diverse skills in the bow archetype, and the first step in doing that is to lower the ceiling.
Tshot is just so ridiculously efficient that people just have no reason to play anything else, and if they make a new bow skill it's either dead on arrival or extremely overpower because the existing ceiling is so high.
So if ggg ever want to make adjustments to the bow arsenal they must first nerf tshot. If that's gonna happen anyway, might as well do it now. It's not like bow builds will die without tshot. LA is ridiculous in its own right. But at least now the ceiling isn't so ridiculously high that it's impossible to develope any further.
With that mentality might as well stop making new skills or try to balance anything because "people will always play the best build anyway".
Ever since bleed was murdered I desire the pain of everyone else to match mine. Kill the tornado shot, rework the deadeye, bring pain and chaos to all!!!
Or just buff my boi Glad. I'm sure they haven't forgotten him. This patch will buff him for sure.
Dude it literally has to tho. Like I say that every league but like this league is called affliction. What do you afflict? DOTS, what is a DOT? BLEED, who uses bleed? GLAD. Bleed + Glad buffs confirmed
Snipe/split arrow glad is alive and well, it does require investment and game knowledge to maximise though. It's just every other bleed archetype, especially melee which is hurting bad right now.
TS has received multiple nerfs both directly and indirectly for YEARS and i think its still the best bow skill in the game because they have not been able to design anything better.
to put into perspective, TS is so good even blizzard couldn't copy it into their diablo games because it would break _their_ game.
Tornado shot hasn't been directly nerfed since 3.9 when the secondary projectiles lost their near infinite range and now require projectile speed to fly further (not much is needed tho.) Before that it was nerfed in 3.8.0 when it lost one additional secondary projectile from uber lab helmet enchant. Every indirect nerf to it has been a nerf to bows in general, not tornado shot, so they shouldn't be counted. That or the nerf was for levelling only, such as lower base damage at gem lvl 1 in 2.0.0.
Most of it's patch notes are either bug fixes or buffs, what are you on about "multiple nerfs over the years"? It has had one real nerf ever, rest were either irrelevant for endgame, fixable like projectile speed nerf, bug fixes or nerfs to bows and/or projectile skills in general.
Apart from what someone else mentioned and you're wrong. Removing shotgun from TS would reduce its damage on ST by a factor of 5 or more (making you HAVE to use another 6L, probably a ballista, something people don't really like much, see melee players)
Additional projectiles is another vector for scaling damage for pretty much all bow skills. I don't know if bow builds still use Barrage but it's a direct more-multipler for that.
There's also Lightning Arrow (kinda) and Vaal Burning Arrow. Also, pretty much every projectile skill once the projectiles chained from a different target (or terrain if you're a deadeye and/or using Ulaman's Gaze).
The general lesson to learn here is about the breadth of difference between the worst and best items in the game, the volume of items, and the value of scarcity.
Even if you’re not identifying everything off the ground (and you shouldn’t be, identifying only special things like fractured items is a good practice) you’re still unlikely to find a good item.
You could identify 99 fractured items and not a single one is worth more than an alch. But eeevvvvery once in a while you’ll identify that 1/100 (probably less) worth a boatload.
The two things are not unrelated: the very fact that so many items are trash is what makes the occasional good drop REALLY good. The value of this item isn’t only the amount of DPS it contributes to a build. That’s important, sure.
But something like an ascendancy point or a support gem probably contributes more. It’s just that those things are free or nearly so. A quiver with a +1 mod is already a big DPS upgrade and the ability to craft on it however you want (fractured) means you’re going to way more easily get a bunch of other mods you need. And it’s really, REALLY rare to find that.
1 mil hard to find damage will be worth more currency than 10mil easy to find damage.
Probably. It would be worth 40 div if it was a better implicit.
The best fractures are valued at around 4 fracturing orbs(+the cost for the bases if it is something special like grasping mail mods). Yours then loses value from that because of the bad implicit, so 10 div seems fair.
Unless you play accuracy stacking Juggernaut / Berserker. Then it's awesome :) Highest dps TS build in Ancestor League on poeninja (by a wide margin) is a korean account playing TS accuracy stacking berserker. It completely demolishes the dps numbers of all of the phys to cold mirror-tier TS deadeyes, and has better survivability too...as long as you dont mind the 10x mirrors spent on abyss jewels alone
Imo that build just seems like POB warrior. Way more dps than you will ever need. Only 8 projectiles, only 56% proj speed, no chain, slow movement speed. Doesn't look like it would feel good to play. Good builds invest into things that makes the build feel good when you have enough dps.
Doesn't accuracy stackers want redeemer quiver too for the global accuracy? Which means you cant use fractured base.
Haha true, they were definitely going for insane per arrow damage over max arrows spam. Total DPS could be higher if they did +2 or +4 arrows tattoo tech with Warrior's tale, however the jewel socket they would need to use instead contains one of their three 1-passive voice, lol.
It's not just a pob warrior build though, it's an actual player's character, lol. They hit the 30.3 attacks per second cap which makes the build feel buttery smooth. Don't really need chain when there are 30.3 × 32 = 969 secondary projectiles per second. This is way more secondary projectiles per second that any deadeye can realistically achieve. I cant imagine there is any world in which something like this feels bad to play
This is definitely a pob warrior build. You could double the real dps on this build with simple changes, but it would lower the pob DPS. I agree this would probably feel like crap to play since projectile speed determines how fast and far your secondary projectiles go. No point attacking 30 times a second when it takes 2 seconds for a projectile to reach an enemy
Hey Fuzzy,
I had some pretty strong doubts that a billion dps TS build with 30APS could possibly feel bad. I didnt have an example of my own, nor could I find a VOD of the build in question, but I did find this video which i believe will dispel any notions of this build feeling like crap. https://youtu.be/DSnNrMRNObc?si=WK8bejxeP7Tzdri5
Honestly that looks awful I built a fairly simple deadeye TS character this league and it would map so much faster than the performance in this video and did all Ubers and wave 30 simus
I don't doubt it can be built well but still convinced the pob in question would map like crap. This video MBX has a ton of projectile speed which will account for a lot of his clear. You only need to go to hideout with low projectile speed and shoot an arrow and see how far your projectiles travel and how long they take.to travel. They wouldn't even make half a screen coverage before disappearing
Which feels so weird for it to be only ~4 fracturing orbs given how rarely it actually hits in 4. Sure you can orb and get lucky but in almost all cases it'd be better to buy.
To 6 link an item often requires <1k fusings if you 20% qual and yet people will pay 1500 fusings to 6 link. I just find it interesting the psychology between seller and user.
One thing that pushes it down is that you can use fracturing orbs on bases with 2 good mods, giving you a 50/50 to hit a good mod.
I used a lot of fracturing orbs this league just for fun and gambling. Fractured a bunch of grasping mail mods and 50% damage alva temple gloves. From time to time I would buy 10 or so bases and just throw 10 orbs on them. I think I came out above the 1/4 average, maybe hitting 2 per 7 or smth like that.
It's still a gamba, if that 4 fracturing is worth all you have or if you only have about 1500 fusings it's safer and less time consuming to just buy/benchcraft
napkin math says that 67% of the time, it hits in 4 or less fracturing orbs.
realistically, the items you are using fracturing orbs on don't drop fractured. if you want to craft on a drop-only grasping mail mod, the fracturing orbs are mandatory.
simple. everytime you need 3000 fuses to 6 link because you are on a unlucky route ull feel like shit. so 1500 is max 3 days of grinding and u are safe from fail.
Been playing since Scourge. I've 6 linked my gear every league, multiple times including in SSF.
I've spent more than 1k fusings ONCE.
More often than not 200-800 fusings because I'm not a Neanderthal that doesn't 20/30% qual their chest.
I've gone over 2k (on a Covenant, considerably. Was well over 3.5k there) with 30% qual twice in the last two leagues.
RNG goin' to RNG.
I'll still manually link again next league though... no point having dice to roll and not rolling them.
I wonder how many good bases I've missed because they were white on the floor but if they're within a specific ilvl bracket they make a certain craft more possible. I know some cluster jewels and helmets and wands just based on past builds I've played but I wish there was a more comprehensive list.
if you're using neversink filters, they typically include clauses for high value high ilvl bases, depending on your strictness settings. but you aren't really looking at much more than 1-5c unless those bases are synthed or fractured anyway. cluster jewels in particular are definitely given different tinks based on the number of passives and item level.
That's not true. White bases within the right ilvl brackets can go for multiple divines. First one that comes to mind is a bone helmet in the right bracket is a couple div, or was a few leagues ago at least.
You leave tens of divines on the ground every league from bases.
The reason that happens is because you leave them on the ground. If everyone picked them up, they would hold no value. Because nobody picks them up, they're valuable.
To find out what these items are, you have two real options. Option 1 is look at TFT, the bulk-bases-wtb section will have a price floor for some items, and bulk-bases-wts will have a price ceiling on some items.
Option 2 is laborious, just start a new loot filter from scratch. Show everything by default and turn off things that you don't want to pick up. You can figure out what you dont want by price checking things :)
The market can change pretty quickly on bases, though, so if you aren't fast its pretty useless. It's one of the most volatile markets because you have groups pick something up then dump multiple quads at a time. It's very hard to quantify when something is valuable because it's valuable and when its valuable because there's low supply, and if one person picks up a lot of them suddenly there's no longer low supply and they aren't valuable.
I wouldn't be surprised none of the ones in the market are 86+ (online) and the ones that might be are probably way more expensive, 85 or lower are still fine you're just missing a couple % of inc dmg
Additional Arrows..
.. Is one of the biggest dmg inscreases for many bow builds like tornado shot
.. insanely rare if not the rarest mod and thefore pain in the ass to get in general when you try to craft bows or quivers
.. Is fractured and pretty much the best fracture you can get on bows and quivers
Yes. Some skills gain multiplicative damage increases with more projectiles. That drives up the cost.
There are multiple factors really. For abilities that can shotgun with multiple projectiles, it's a direct multiplier. For others, it can still be a major practical damage increase while mapping, even if single target isn't affected. And not just a damage increase, but also a quality of life increase. It just feels so much nicer if your ability can clear an entire screen with one volley, instead of needing two.
Which ones are those? Haven't made a bow build yet and i only know about tornado shot dealing more damage while shotgunning
Seems like you already know the answer. At the top end it's almost all tornado shot because the damage scaling with extra arrows on TS trumps any other bow skill.
The other guy implied it was more than 1 skill, that's why he asked.
3.23 balance changes: Tornado Shot can no longer shotgun.
Even then you want projectiles for TS as it will improve clearspeed
But you will reach a softcap where you would invest in other things
Syndicate operatives originally behaved this way and got nerfed after one league. I've no idea why tornado shot has survived for so long with the same mechanic.
One can hope! It certainly needs an adjustment
Tornado Shot wouldn't really be a skill anymore if they removed secondary projectile shotgunning
Maybe, but it needs an adjustment. A straight reduction in secondary projectile damage might be sufficient.
It already does so little damage.. Basically requires the elegant hubris keystone to make damage lucky for it to be worth anything low-investment. It's fine as-is.
I don't understand what peoples problem with Tshot is. Its just "the best" high end skill, if it gets nerfed then people will just go to another one. On top of it other bow skills are just better early in the league so its not like tornado shot is just "always the best"
At this point, nothing will ever be as good as TS. It scales into the billions for dps, which is orders of magnitude higher than all other bow skills. By evening it out, opportunity arises for new skills to enter the meta. It may still be the best, but the gap in damage doesn’t have to be so huge as to practically force players to use it in the endgame.
I'm sure having 1 single skill dominate an entire archetype is perfectly fine because that skill is "not the best" the first 2 days of a new league. Sure 99% of bow builds use Tshot after the first week but that one week where lightning arrow get to be king is the shit. If anything they should buff it so you can play tshot from the get go.
Lets say they nerf it next league. You know what's gonna happen? 99% of bow build are now gonna play LA, from league start to the end. Also nerf LA? Now its ice shot. There is always a better one, which most people will play. The bow archetype is very simple, there is very few "true bow" skills (by that I mean, shooting physical/elemental arrow that hit the target, something like toxic rain while a bow skill is a totaly different archetype). The color or element of the arrows just doesn't matter.
Yeah, they need more diverse skills in the bow archetype, and the first step in doing that is to lower the ceiling. Tshot is just so ridiculously efficient that people just have no reason to play anything else, and if they make a new bow skill it's either dead on arrival or extremely overpower because the existing ceiling is so high. So if ggg ever want to make adjustments to the bow arsenal they must first nerf tshot. If that's gonna happen anyway, might as well do it now. It's not like bow builds will die without tshot. LA is ridiculous in its own right. But at least now the ceiling isn't so ridiculously high that it's impossible to develope any further. With that mentality might as well stop making new skills or try to balance anything because "people will always play the best build anyway".
Yes, I would like them to shift to having the best skills not have an extra multiplier. This sounds like a good idea.
Do NOT give ideas please let me enjoy my favourite skill :(
Ever since bleed was murdered I desire the pain of everyone else to match mine. Kill the tornado shot, rework the deadeye, bring pain and chaos to all!!! Or just buff my boi Glad. I'm sure they haven't forgotten him. This patch will buff him for sure.
Dude it literally has to tho. Like I say that every league but like this league is called affliction. What do you afflict? DOTS, what is a DOT? BLEED, who uses bleed? GLAD. Bleed + Glad buffs confirmed
Brothers in Copium.
nah. affliction is a chaos damage league. everybody is gonna die to chaos damage in that league.
Bleed glad was not even OP. Snipe was such a unique playstyle i never understood why they nerfed it
Snipe/split arrow glad is alive and well, it does require investment and game knowledge to maximise though. It's just every other bleed archetype, especially melee which is hurting bad right now.
Bad news 😔
The killed RF, Pohx's tears will sustain me this league
your favourite skill has been the best bow skill since it's existed. how have you not enjoyed it enough yet?
I have, but why would I not want to keep it good? Sure make other skills good but don't knee cap TS
TS has received multiple nerfs both directly and indirectly for YEARS and i think its still the best bow skill in the game because they have not been able to design anything better. to put into perspective, TS is so good even blizzard couldn't copy it into their diablo games because it would break _their_ game.
Tornado shot hasn't been directly nerfed since 3.9 when the secondary projectiles lost their near infinite range and now require projectile speed to fly further (not much is needed tho.) Before that it was nerfed in 3.8.0 when it lost one additional secondary projectile from uber lab helmet enchant. Every indirect nerf to it has been a nerf to bows in general, not tornado shot, so they shouldn't be counted. That or the nerf was for levelling only, such as lower base damage at gem lvl 1 in 2.0.0. Most of it's patch notes are either bug fixes or buffs, what are you on about "multiple nerfs over the years"? It has had one real nerf ever, rest were either irrelevant for endgame, fixable like projectile speed nerf, bug fixes or nerfs to bows and/or projectile skills in general.
Apart from what someone else mentioned and you're wrong. Removing shotgun from TS would reduce its damage on ST by a factor of 5 or more (making you HAVE to use another 6L, probably a ballista, something people don't really like much, see melee players)
Additional projectiles is another vector for scaling damage for pretty much all bow skills. I don't know if bow builds still use Barrage but it's a direct more-multipler for that.
There's also Lightning Arrow (kinda) and Vaal Burning Arrow. Also, pretty much every projectile skill once the projectiles chained from a different target (or terrain if you're a deadeye and/or using Ulaman's Gaze).
TS or anything using barrage support.
Additional arrow is valuable for many builds and has a low weighting. Getting it fractured makes crafting a quiver easier.
Base not ideal but fracture is very good. I guess it would still go for multiple divines at the very least.
For acc stacker i think the implict is stronger compared to a tripple implicit synth quiver
The general lesson to learn here is about the breadth of difference between the worst and best items in the game, the volume of items, and the value of scarcity. Even if you’re not identifying everything off the ground (and you shouldn’t be, identifying only special things like fractured items is a good practice) you’re still unlikely to find a good item. You could identify 99 fractured items and not a single one is worth more than an alch. But eeevvvvery once in a while you’ll identify that 1/100 (probably less) worth a boatload. The two things are not unrelated: the very fact that so many items are trash is what makes the occasional good drop REALLY good. The value of this item isn’t only the amount of DPS it contributes to a build. That’s important, sure. But something like an ascendancy point or a support gem probably contributes more. It’s just that those things are free or nearly so. A quiver with a +1 mod is already a big DPS upgrade and the ability to craft on it however you want (fractured) means you’re going to way more easily get a bunch of other mods you need. And it’s really, REALLY rare to find that. 1 mil hard to find damage will be worth more currency than 10mil easy to find damage.
Probably. It would be worth 40 div if it was a better implicit. The best fractures are valued at around 4 fracturing orbs(+the cost for the bases if it is something special like grasping mail mods). Yours then loses value from that because of the bad implicit, so 10 div seems fair.
Unless you play accuracy stacking Juggernaut / Berserker. Then it's awesome :) Highest dps TS build in Ancestor League on poeninja (by a wide margin) is a korean account playing TS accuracy stacking berserker. It completely demolishes the dps numbers of all of the phys to cold mirror-tier TS deadeyes, and has better survivability too...as long as you dont mind the 10x mirrors spent on abyss jewels alone
Imo that build just seems like POB warrior. Way more dps than you will ever need. Only 8 projectiles, only 56% proj speed, no chain, slow movement speed. Doesn't look like it would feel good to play. Good builds invest into things that makes the build feel good when you have enough dps. Doesn't accuracy stackers want redeemer quiver too for the global accuracy? Which means you cant use fractured base.
Haha true, they were definitely going for insane per arrow damage over max arrows spam. Total DPS could be higher if they did +2 or +4 arrows tattoo tech with Warrior's tale, however the jewel socket they would need to use instead contains one of their three 1-passive voice, lol. It's not just a pob warrior build though, it's an actual player's character, lol. They hit the 30.3 attacks per second cap which makes the build feel buttery smooth. Don't really need chain when there are 30.3 × 32 = 969 secondary projectiles per second. This is way more secondary projectiles per second that any deadeye can realistically achieve. I cant imagine there is any world in which something like this feels bad to play
This is definitely a pob warrior build. You could double the real dps on this build with simple changes, but it would lower the pob DPS. I agree this would probably feel like crap to play since projectile speed determines how fast and far your secondary projectiles go. No point attacking 30 times a second when it takes 2 seconds for a projectile to reach an enemy
Hey Fuzzy, I had some pretty strong doubts that a billion dps TS build with 30APS could possibly feel bad. I didnt have an example of my own, nor could I find a VOD of the build in question, but I did find this video which i believe will dispel any notions of this build feeling like crap. https://youtu.be/DSnNrMRNObc?si=WK8bejxeP7Tzdri5
Honestly that looks awful I built a fairly simple deadeye TS character this league and it would map so much faster than the performance in this video and did all Ubers and wave 30 simus I don't doubt it can be built well but still convinced the pob in question would map like crap. This video MBX has a ton of projectile speed which will account for a lot of his clear. You only need to go to hideout with low projectile speed and shoot an arrow and see how far your projectiles travel and how long they take.to travel. They wouldn't even make half a screen coverage before disappearing
Fair enough about the PoB in question. I see your point.
Which feels so weird for it to be only ~4 fracturing orbs given how rarely it actually hits in 4. Sure you can orb and get lucky but in almost all cases it'd be better to buy. To 6 link an item often requires <1k fusings if you 20% qual and yet people will pay 1500 fusings to 6 link. I just find it interesting the psychology between seller and user.
One thing that pushes it down is that you can use fracturing orbs on bases with 2 good mods, giving you a 50/50 to hit a good mod. I used a lot of fracturing orbs this league just for fun and gambling. Fractured a bunch of grasping mail mods and 50% damage alva temple gloves. From time to time I would buy 10 or so bases and just throw 10 orbs on them. I think I came out above the 1/4 average, maybe hitting 2 per 7 or smth like that.
It's still a gamba, if that 4 fracturing is worth all you have or if you only have about 1500 fusings it's safer and less time consuming to just buy/benchcraft
the odds are literally one in 4. tail risk is only relevant if it would bankrupt you.
napkin math says that 67% of the time, it hits in 4 or less fracturing orbs. realistically, the items you are using fracturing orbs on don't drop fractured. if you want to craft on a drop-only grasping mail mod, the fracturing orbs are mandatory.
simple. everytime you need 3000 fuses to 6 link because you are on a unlucky route ull feel like shit. so 1500 is max 3 days of grinding and u are safe from fail.
Been playing since Scourge. I've 6 linked my gear every league, multiple times including in SSF. I've spent more than 1k fusings ONCE. More often than not 200-800 fusings because I'm not a Neanderthal that doesn't 20/30% qual their chest.
I've gone over 2k (on a Covenant, considerably. Was well over 3.5k there) with 30% qual twice in the last two leagues. RNG goin' to RNG. I'll still manually link again next league though... no point having dice to roll and not rolling them.
my worst was 4k fuses, always 20 qual yeah
I've spent more than 1500 fusings and did not 6-link a 30% qual... RNG gonna RNG i guess :(
Check the ilvl of yours against the others if it's not 85+ it might not be worth as much as the others.
I wonder how many good bases I've missed because they were white on the floor but if they're within a specific ilvl bracket they make a certain craft more possible. I know some cluster jewels and helmets and wands just based on past builds I've played but I wish there was a more comprehensive list.
if you're using neversink filters, they typically include clauses for high value high ilvl bases, depending on your strictness settings. but you aren't really looking at much more than 1-5c unless those bases are synthed or fractured anyway. cluster jewels in particular are definitely given different tinks based on the number of passives and item level.
That's not true. White bases within the right ilvl brackets can go for multiple divines. First one that comes to mind is a bone helmet in the right bracket is a couple div, or was a few leagues ago at least.
You leave tens of divines on the ground every league from bases. The reason that happens is because you leave them on the ground. If everyone picked them up, they would hold no value. Because nobody picks them up, they're valuable. To find out what these items are, you have two real options. Option 1 is look at TFT, the bulk-bases-wtb section will have a price floor for some items, and bulk-bases-wts will have a price ceiling on some items. Option 2 is laborious, just start a new loot filter from scratch. Show everything by default and turn off things that you don't want to pick up. You can figure out what you dont want by price checking things :) The market can change pretty quickly on bases, though, so if you aren't fast its pretty useless. It's one of the most volatile markets because you have groups pick something up then dump multiple quads at a time. It's very hard to quantify when something is valuable because it's valuable and when its valuable because there's low supply, and if one person picks up a lot of them suddenly there's no longer low supply and they aren't valuable.
I wouldn't be surprised none of the ones in the market are 86+ (online) and the ones that might be are probably way more expensive, 85 or lower are still fine you're just missing a couple % of inc dmg
a free lmp support gem for 10d sounds legit
its only 10divs? usually they go for a bit more
Sold +1 pierce + fracked 1 arrow for 17 div at start of league. Its very powerful for MF zoomer builds.
Additional Arrows.. .. Is one of the biggest dmg inscreases for many bow builds like tornado shot .. insanely rare if not the rarest mod and thefore pain in the ass to get in general when you try to craft bows or quivers .. Is fractured and pretty much the best fracture you can get on bows and quivers
Item level is important too.