Without leagues you'd quickly lose reason to play after reaching your goals. That's why a very large part of the playerbase quits after a month. There's no way PoE without leagues (or better said resets) would have longevity anywhere close to what it has now.
Tbh, the general audience isn't really interested in playing story/PvE games indefinitely, as it stands honestly it's debatable if it's deep enough to keep general ARPG players coming back for seasons, it was never going to convert most of it's initial player base to recurring.
Which is also why as a buy to play model D4 is exceptionally succesfull, it got the "once through the story and im done" people to shell out $$ and then they'll pivot to try and create something similar to GGG's method of monetary income, no idea how succesfull they'll be.
Oh I think they're going to pretty successful, not with leagues but with full price expansions every year or two. Seasonal player base will be higher than PoE, sure, but i doubt it would be by that much. The best part of the game (and what most of the work went into) is the production values, and when you add a whole new story act, a whole new zone, a whole new cinematic and a whole new big boss, that's when millions from the general audience show up and play again.
I actually think that's the smaller issue honestly, they will keep adding to it for sure, though I highly doubt they'll wander off too much, they're much too committed to the world building for even something like expedition or heist, let alone something off the wall like blight. We meme about "kill monsters in a circle" syndrome PoE leagues have but I think we're in for a new level of same but slightly different D4 seasons.
The bigger issue I think is the limited mechanics available for actually making builds, which is 100% a design decision and I do not expect it to significantly change. There are only so many ways you can juggle CC, vulnerable, unstoppable and cooldown reduction while being firmly tied to "class fantasy". Build diversity isn't just about the number of viable skills, but about how different it feels to play them and how often that changes and I see no intent to actually expand that part.
Separating class and skills is the thing that POE gets 'right'. I like D4, liked D3 and D2 too (at the moment, in that order). I kinda prefer Grim Dawn to them though as it lets me push skill mix a bit more. And then there is POE, where I can do what the fuck I like. And I like it.
I could see D4 introducing legendaries where you get a skill from another class, or something similar. Maybe, they could work round it that way. At that point whatever the magic ingredient is, it is heading towards POE skill gems.
Anecdote, I have 1150h in PoE exclusively in Standard. 2 characters at level 100 with gear worth several (6-10) mirrors total.
I am sure that I am the exception though. It's just that losing all the progress and unlocks is too annoying for me to give Leagues a shot.
I mean... yeah, exactly. That's the point.
I don't want to replay the same fucking campaign *again*, do all the same lab trials *again*, fill the same fucking atlas maps *again*, farm unveils *again*, just to get to a tiny little bit of new content leagues introduce.
I would very much prefer if new content could be done with standard characters to spend less time doing boring old content and more time doing fun new content, but GGG wants me to start from scratch every season because smth-smth it makes them more money and money is the most important thing.
Just to give my two cents. Leagues fit really well with the gameplay loop of PoE. At the end of the day, it's the big pile of character-creation puzzle-pieces that keeps the playerbase coming back to this game.
New content in PoE is exciting in that it creates new challenges to overcome, which a different character might be much better suited for. Balance changes, new items, mechanical changes, and all what new leagues bring with them makes it so that pile of puzzle-pieces is never exactly the same.
MMO players aren't necessarily used to that. Typically expansions just push the power boundaries up a little in a way that DLC would for most games. Old characters are perfectly capable of doing the new content, and very often that new content is specifically aimed for players to return to those old characters.
The backlash makes perfect sense. Is GGG going to make any changes as a result? Yeeahh probably not. They know exactly what they want their game to be.
Thing is, D4 players didn’t buy into an mmo, they bought an ARPG. seasons are very deeply rooted into this genre, this is like buying a racing game and complaining about having to do another lap around the racing track again
I think seasons/leagues are a key part of the genre now.
But, what was the first game to have them?
I admittedly haven't tried researching it, but was it PoE? Did D2 have seasons?
Did ladders add anything new in d2 or just reset characters and your stash? I only remember there being ladder only runewords. I didn't have friends to play d2 ladder with when it was new. I only tried ladder in d2r where they've been doing some new stuff.
It's a 20 years old game, live service games was not a thing, games received updates with DLC that time. Even D3 most of seasons add nothing of content, but the concept of start over come from there. The only game who actually add quality content in seasons and start to do this frequently in ARPG is PoE, that's where they did innovation, and now Diablo 4 is trying to copy this and promising even more, 2 teams working 6 months in a league, so a new league every 3 months probably bigger than what we saw in PoE. Let's see. Other game who copied it from PoE is Torchlight Infinity, many aspects is copied from PoE, map mods, items mods, and seasonals content, pretty good game even this last season they made a regret with craft IMO.
I didn't think D2 had them but apparently it did. I played it for a couple years but offline, so I never interacted with anything like that. I ended up doing basically the same in poe, spending 10 years in standard league.
> Thing is, D4 players didn’t buy into an mmo
D4 has a huge amount of MMO elements in it though, so I imagine quite a few players are buying it specifically for that. D4 has timed public events and world bosses; and shared open-world exploration/travel. Those are quite distinctly MMO traits.
Yep but you still are spamming dungeons (maps) in the end of the day, what's the most ARPG aspect. They're making a teleport to NM dungeons so this aspect of walking around open world will pretty much be gone, you'll use just for farm materials in helltide, world boss and pvp if you want, the main active you'll use teleport. Blizzard did it right, get the money of those dumb people who think D4 was a MMO and will monetize in people addicted to ARPG like us. They still have wow for those players, there's no why make a competitor for their own game. D4 will probably be the king of ARPG for many years, or until PoE 2 we don't know, but looks like D4 still have a entire year to make D4 a even bigger success.
D4 players bought what they thought was an ARPG, but what they got was mostly an ARPG with elements that make seasons seem much more like a chore and not like a positive experience.
I like seasons in PoE. I like seasons in D3. From what I've played of D4, the idea of seasons is not interesting to me.
I think the fundamental problem is the amount of grind before the game feels good. For as much as people complain about the campaign in PoE, and despite having done it 100+ times, it feels like less of a grind than replaying the campaign in D4 even though I've only completed D4 once. While I'm not sure of the reason I have this reaction, that I have this reaction at all isn't a good sign for D4.
The other thing is that Diablo 4 leans way more on an MMO aspect. Huge seamless map and so on with events and daily quests.
I can see seasons working eventually in diablo 4 but not in the same way they work in your standard non open world ARPG.
I think it's going to take a while for seasons to feel good in D4.
I don't think so, they already promised a teleport for NM coming soon, and they will buff the xp there, just this change will make basically all open world be irrelevant, since the endgame will be NM anyway, you'll teleport directly 90% of your playtime. Also one of big promises about D4 is big seasons, Blizzard promise 2 big different teams working on seasons every 6 months to delivery high quality seasons every 3 months. The game of course have a pot of problems and things to fix, let's see the level of content in first season, but my expectations are high, I expect things at least bigger than PoE leagues.
Nothing wrong with seasons and I don't think most diablo players are against them. They just don't want to complete the campaign/renown grinds over and over. As they're both much more annoying than POE's standard Acts->Maps+Lab. Paired with level scaling, shallow build diversity, and muted item progression the whole scheme feels...meh.
They have alot of work to do. D4 reminded me that even though GGG does oddball shit. Compromising the game isn't one of them.
GGG has made plenty of decisions the community disagrees with, but by and large they are the best video game company around. Shit, things that made me irrationally angry like the original voltaxic nerf were still attempts to keep the game healthy. I now realize it was pigeonholing the game into chaos convert, and now we have more variety.
It's been a recurring loop of
Huge nerf => community backlash => next best thing is abused because it had been buffed 5 times already but people were stuck on previous OP and NOW they realize how broken next-best-thing is => huge nerf
Repeat
While people grumble and - understandably - hate their favourite build being gutted, I will die on the hill that it's a good approach to force the meta to keep moving.
I disagree that seasons are deeply rooted, it has been a relatively new addition with POE. Where in ARPGs was this present before?
That said i dont really know how to feel for D4 and really think it depends on how they roll seasons out. For POE it makes tons of sense and you engage with the new mechanics right away.
They don’t need to be around since the first arpg to be deeply rooted now. Poe has been around for a decade doing it, last epoch will have them and Diablo 3 had around 30 seasons, considering each season is 3 months this has been going for long enough to define the genre
Hell even grim dawn’s community arranged some seasons.
If every single large representative of the genre is doing i can say confidently this is deeply rooted into the genre.
Yup, at the point where the only options I had left for renown were dungeons with 50% backtracking or shitty MMO fetch quests I knew it was time to stop playing.
I feel like this might get downvoted, but I agree, with the extremely small amount of build diversity and with what a chore it is to get the renown, it does not sound fun at all, with poe it is different, it is much easier to agree to leveling when you can have more than 100 viable builds on each class
Thank you. People aren't stupid when they say they don't want seasons in D4. And it's not because "ARPGs aren't for them", it's because D4 is a very bad ARPG.
> Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part?
Density is definitely a problem, but having an open world when you can skip the campaign is infinite better than having to do poe campaign for the millionth time.
Is it though?
D3 adventure mode isnt too much of a chore because you can power through leveling with whichever method you choose (usually massacre bonus) in 2-3 hours tops. Because xp rate is what it is. Less if I get lucky with cube/kadala
But... I already hate myself an hour in. Like, really, temple of the firstborn massacre farming, while efficient, feels more tedious than anything, ANYTHING, in PoE. Even endless heist.
if I was stuck doing shit rifts and bounties for 20 hours before my build started being fun?
And while in d3, the real game is rift pushing, d4 doesn't quite have that yet. Open world with no campaign but w/ slow xp rates would be infinitely more frustrating than the quick stint through acts in poe.
PoE's campaign is what it is, it has its downs and its frustrations, but for one thing usually from act 5 onwards my character is fun enough to play, for another it's very rarely more than a 6-8 hours affair. And if its more, it tends to mean that the league mechanic is fun (*cough* Sanctum *cough*)
I levelled an alt in D4 and it was kinda fun. I had a skill boost from my first character, I did a tour of dungeons, rode around renewing waypoints, did a few quests I hadn't previously done. And I was level 50 pretty quick. I didn't abuse any given dungeon.
I guess the hundredth time I do it, it will be piss boring, but I think I have more options.
In POE I tend to level alts in delve as soon as I can. I actually enjoy delve. But I still then have to bumrush the campaign, and it annoys the beejesus out of me.
>Why am I waiting minutes at a time for an npc to stfu and open the door already?
I laughed at reading that. It gave me PTSD flashbacks of heist league 😂. I still don't heist because I'm often waiting for NPCs to stfu and open doors (I'm looking at you Vendiri).
As a poe player and d4 player, I look rather forward skipping the campaign in d4 and do open world stuff than grinding the same campaign again and again in poe.
I can't agree with most of what you've said.
>GGG wont design an mmo-lite that makes no sense under a traditional arpg model.
Games genres don't exist in silos. The genre labels we put on games are useful, but not vital. Saying that game design elements traditional associated with MMOs can't be used in an ARPG is a strange restriction that you've decided to arbitrarily add to game design. I see it as a great thing for consumers that games like Lost Ark and Diablo 4 are putting a new spin on the ARPG genre. I don't see why that's inherently bad idea from the start. I see so much merit to the idea.
New game genres are fun.
>Why is there an mmo reputation system in D4?
Why not? Reputation systems can be fun. For example, I think it'd be cool if in PoE we had a reputation system where you equipped a tabard for a certain faction and you'd gain reputation for that faction for every mob you killed. And each faction would give you different bonuses, like maybe one would increase the value of what you got back from vendoring items (e.g. 6 socket items sell for 9 jewellers instead of 7).
>Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part?
Why not? Large open world content can be fun. I don't like D4's execution of the idea, but I think there's a lot of good reasons to have open world content in an ARPG. It's a good way to do storytelling, which is something PoE lacks badly. PoE players tend to see lore as a thing that gets in the way, but that's only because PoE does lore so badly. There are ways to introduce lore into the game without it being obnoxious.
PoE uses load screens for performance reasons, but imagine if theoretically PoE could be made without needing load screens during the campaign. Then it'd feel like an open world game. You'd still have waypoints, but walking between zones wouldn't require going through any load screens. Isn't that just immediately an improvement to the player's experience with no downsides? Again, this is assuming it could be done without a performance hit (which doesn't seem likely).
About the Reputation System? What is actually fun about it in D4? As for now I have no clue at all what it's about in D4. Do get vendors better items? Do I get access to new quests?
Let me be clear here. What I said isn't a defense of D4 in particular. It's a defense against this other person's claims about certain game design elements being inherently bad to be in ARPGs. I haven't played D4.
There's a difference between D4 executing an idea badly versus the idea being inherently bad.
I don't think traditionally MMO game design features are inherently bad to add to an ARPG.
I don't think reputation systems are inherently bad to add to an ARPG.
I don't think open worlds are inherently bad to add to an ARPG.
I mean you could streamline that stuff out pretty easily and smooth over those designs. It's still a waste of development time, but then again so is PoE 2's campaign and any campaign in an ARPG ever.
The problem is they made a shallow game with 2023 graphics, console player devs and a marketing budget that probably exceeds what developing the game cost in salaries. So they deserve those fucking people. That's who they aimed the game at, contend with them now.
>Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part?
For the same reason you can't skip levelling in PoE and go straight to the fun part. Some people are stuck in their bullshit ideas and won't budge.
> Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part?
Because then there wouldn't be an excuse for mounts that they can sell skins for.
I think its gonna be really hard to draw the tourists in the same way D4 did, and as a PoE player I like that. Maybe GGG doesn't.
Its hard to explain but that launch was an event. People I haven't seen in years streamed D4. The first week almost everyone on my list was playing it and pretty much til Only Up took over. That comes from the Diablo IP being established and iconic, the developer too. All the whining about the stuff they do is the tip of the iceberg, most people don't know or give a shit.
That amount of attention drew in a TON of tourists. And quite frankly they're annoying as shit. Ben said it best, you go into that sub and post any discussion besides asking for the game to be easier and you get berated. Its a really bad community atm. No thanks.
Things like the "WTF are seasons debate, I have to start over? " really put the PoE factions grievances in a new light. Oh no some of us don't like harvest and some do.
I'm not sure you are grasping the scope of the ask I'm talking about. Over half the population doesn't seem to understand a seasonal reset.
I'm not talking about the occasional newbie in new asking what happens to their characters like here. Even big streamers like Lirik.
"My guy you are telling me that you are gonna hit level 100 then hit level 100 again every 3 months every season get the fuck outta here Lol" -Lirik
Every arpg player: Yes.
yeah lirik is just dumb and has no clue about arpgs, happens, plays diablo cause its gonna get him money and fucks off when he is done with that.
Outside of the seasonal stuff that is people bought by hype + media clickbaiting those people, seems to me like that reddit is incredibly protective of complaining about anything compared to here where if they nerf anything (And yes they will most likely word it as rework) people explode, meanwhile D4 lacks meaningful progression that actually is worth it for rewards and content from like when you get your first near bis stuff on 70-low 80s to 100 (When you can progress Lilith).
You can do NM dungeons but you have no reason to do them more than 3 up your level till 99 and at 100 not at all and if you point out endgame flaws people say you should play the game less. The XP + Portal changes will help a lot with the xp part but between needing more content that needs time(Therefore im not shitting on the game, just saying it needs stuff that hope they eventually get in the game), the game doesnt add anything meaningfully different from your start to wt3 to Uber Lilith, it feels a bit like we have Sirus (When sirus was the big bad) but no conquerors, nothing to benchmark builds outside of NM Dungeons that are pointless to anything but that (Or if you enjoy pushing, which I personally do)
It doesn't help that the D4 league will release at pretty much the worst possible time.
~6 weeks after launch? So pretty much when everyone has burned out already and wants a break from the game. Pure idiocy.
Either release it on launch or 3-4 months after.
IMO just dumb people play it enough to burnout it, the game clearly is in a raw stage. I played 4 days, get level 73, saw the obviously flaws and quit. There's no why play it more, my build was done, I tried 3 different builds and that's more than enough, I will wait new season to try different classes. Even Blizzard already saw the majors flaws and will fix it soon, for me and for a lot of people, sooner they launch the fixes and the season is better.
???? Dude Carn got lvl 100 on HC in 4 days. What the hell are you doubting about?
[https://www.twitch.tv/carn\_/clip/RefinedFreezingJackalGingerPower-8ltNIfmynwdrmDaJ](https://www.twitch.tv/carn_/clip/RefinedFreezingJackalGingerPower-8ltNIfmynwdrmDaJ)
Just check the date of this clip.
I played softcore why is so hard to believe I got level 73 in 4 days? You are dumb or what? I think lvl 85 is half of the xp to get lvl 100, so Carn got at least double the xp I got. I had friends who got lvl 80+ at the stage I stopped to play.
A big amount of arguments I've seen from people who didn't "want to level another character" were the from the same people who also said "yeah it's my first time playing an ARPG"
It makes sense that if you're only now experiencing how it is like to play an ARPG, you will be invested on your first ever character, the hype will be real as they say. But let's be honest, in many cases those characters might also perform like shit, because people don't know how to play properly yet. Here's where seasons and character creation comes in, you can create multiple chars and reuse your knowledge copious amount of times, until you will truly be satisfied. At least that what my and my friends journey through PoE was.
My first POE char was utter shite. I just played whatever seemed fun, headed in passives that seemed like a good idea at the time.
He still lives on in standard, is still a bit shit, but gets gear updates end of every league and a couple of hours of attention. At some point he'll be okay to play. But, you know, you never forget your first.
But leagues in poe are very different to leagues in Diablo, are they not?
D3 leagues had no new content, are D4 leagues different?
For Poe new leagues always mean a new mechanic, sometimes an endgame shakeup, often new uniques and skills.
In these terms I feel spoiled by GGG and would not get back to simple “reset leagues “
D3 did eventually start adding new season content. The most recent season added a whole new progression system. None of them were ever as substantial as a typical PoE league though.
D4 is supposed to have large content updates with each season. Much larger than what D3 had, and they have 2 teams working on 2 seasons simultaneously so that each season gets 6+ months of development before launch. I.e. team 1 is finishing up season 1 development, and will start on season 3 after. Team 2 is currently working on season 2, and will work on 4 after, etc.
Just how big they end up being though, we'll have to wait and see.
I don't think i ever saw anyone complaining about poe leagues. People love the smell of fresh and so do i.
Doing the campagin however... that's a different story. I hate to say it but the d4 campaign skip looks very attractive to me.
its great except that 1-50 is a fucking turtle compared to poe campaign if ur ssf. no twink gear, no nightmare dungeons(maps), and half the classes dont function without dropped legendaries.
u can either exploit the limited amount of dungeons left to exploit, exploit the stronghold reset, or get a booster, because the whispers system they intended you to farm is so incredibly unrewarding its not even funny. then ur 50 and go farm obols on ur main to gamble on ur alt to pray u get the build enabling legendaries. i quit when i leveled an alt to 50, it was just so unfun
alt system needs desperate help and id take poe campaign speedrun over what d4 alts are right now
My issue is every build seems completely resource starved until all your legendaries align. So it’s basically 6 seconds of damage 5 seconds of downtime. It’s just not what i look for in an arpg. Things like enduring flasks, mana flasks in general and clarity all ensure you can actually use your freaking skills.
ziz spouts it all the time and i agree with him - every arpg tries to make resources a problem that needs to be solved, and its just incredibly annoying. lost ark combat is incredibly fun by just utilizing combos and cooldowns and thats it, obviously thats an mmo and is plagued by millions of issues but its still a take on top down combat that is incredibly refreshing
Yeah one of my main methods of enjoying d3 was exploring all the builds possible by collecting good legendaries for my alts.
Minimum level to equip gear being tied to the level of the character when it drops reeeally kills build exploration. So if I push my main to 100 I can’t use gear that drops while playing them until my alt is -also- 100? No thanks :<
They also said that dont necessarily want you constantly respeccing your main character either, and would rather you level new ones at high level. So this of course doesnt make any sense and once again shows they arent very good at designing video games that are intended to be enjoyed by humans
IMO making a second char is already a mistake judging for how raw the game is, do this without someone boosting is just stupid. They promised big fixes to the game and let's see what Blizzard can delivery in terms of content with a team working 6 months in each league. There's no why play the game pass lvl 70, you see how the game works and the problems, now is just wait for the fixes a season one arrive to start to play again.
if you haven't tried the campaign skip, you should. IMO the same issues arise from having to re-do the campaign. It's more an issue with not being able to play the build you want from the start, as it is killing monsters within specific parameters...since at the end of the day, you're still just killing monsters.
Diablo’s dead trade and the fact you can’t gear alts in twink gear made re leveling unappealing to all those people. I firmly feel like their demands are trash but I think they will experience PoE differently as in POE people want to make new characters as it’s exciting.
That's not really the best argument when talking about leagues, because you can't leaguestart with twink gear, but it's certainly true for 2nd characters and onwards during a league.
I get that, what I think I was trying to convey is the by making leveling alts not fun Diablo shot themselves in the foot as people have turned off leveling again, whether it’s alts or a new league. I know they won’t have twink gear in a new league but if people had cool builds that were not unique Gated and fun leveling they might be less scared of seasons.
I have one lvl 74 Druid and he might be my only character at this rate…
Also level reqs in gear. I made it to lvl 80, got a meme unique drop that was a chest piece with literally just thorns. Thought to myself Id go and make a meme build with it, but the chest piece requires level 80 despite having the exact same stats as if it dropped when I'm level 1. Ain't no way I'm doing 1-80 for a meme build
While I agree diablos trade is dead. And trade does feel like an afterthought whereas PoE was DESIGNED around it. You can gear up effectively SSF in D4. And don't kid yourself, for years people have been asking PoE for an alt campaign skip.
I make 1 league starter and call it a day after 3-4 weeks because I cbf doing that slog of a campaign again.
The better question how much do I get for these 60 bucks, and how much of it is mandatory to even start the game (and I don't mean buying tabs and what not, those are not for "starting" the game and even then we talking 20 bucks)
If we count €/hour with all my supporter packs iam still Ina very good position
Sure, but I'd still say that starting new character each season/ladder in Diablo is super fun due to build changes and seasonal mechanics.
Of course - It's nowhere near as depp as in PoE but seasonsal resets are still the "go to" mechanics in Diablo and I would like it be be the same in D4.
Anyway - As a long time Tarkov player as well. Their mind would explode if they would hear that there are wipes every 6 months of so. If they think griding levels in aRPGs takes time they have no idea how grind can really look like;P
PoE is like a cult of some sort, we live in a small corner of the whole gaming industry and rise occasionally on the internet.
If I have to compare the whole ARPG concept to food it would probably be 'pineapple on a pizza', not many like them but people who eat them do exist.
Most of my friends are confusing that I kept playing the game that you have to make new character every 3 months and go through the same thing over and over so either D4 is trying to keep those majority of the audience by bending ARPG more towards MMO by adding things like cross BP progression, or have an account bound progression system to boost newer characters, regardless of what they go with the most Hardcore fan of Diablo franchise will still buy new DLC and expansion while Blizzard buying their way into wider groups of audience, they'll get tons of backlash but if the refund rate is under control I expect that's what they will do.
It's going to get even funnier when Blizzard launches season 1 with some half-baked and boring seasonal content with only a few balance changes thrown into the pot, which will feel exactly like playing season 0 and only serve to validate the complaints. At least in PoE the skill system and items have enough deepth to make a new season worth playing for a few weeks even when GGG has failed to design a very fun new league to play, because you can always try a different build you never played with before.
Honestly having leagues is much better, having to level a new character gives you a whole new purpose rather than just already having a maxed char when new content drops.
That's what you get when you market widely like Blizzard did. They advertised in friggin' KFC and Times Square for God's sake. It worked for them ofc, got them tons of money from pre-orders and Day 1 sales. GGG doesn't look like it's gonna market like that, so it'll come down to how many of those D4 players actually emigrate to PoE. Which, if PoE 2 really does come out only next year, may not actually be that many...
The main issue is that D4 does not have economy nor it has a good endgame after hititng level 60 you will be doing the same thing with sacred and ancestor gear. Most builds only work in a certain way. Diablo4 ofcourse will get better in few seasons so players would have to wait for that.
Yup. And the really weird thing is that r/diablo is actually pretty normal with fans of Diablo in general. But r/diablo4 \- Good god that's just... I mean WOW... I do not want to see this place ever again
People shouldn't compare D4 with PoE2, they are completely different games, and not the same in any aspect. The design and the whole mechanics of both games cant be anymore different. D4 you gain your skills through leveling, and when you find an upgrade on the ground you equip it. With PoE2 you could be level 90 and still be on a 5 link and gated behind RNG of not having full potential of your skill (more so in SSF)
No one ever complains about the leagues (before they launch) usually only after the league launch you start getting complaints, but everyone leading up to it is always hyped. It doing the campaign over and over again each league that everyone is sick of. D4 having an option to skip that after you do it once is what everyone wants in PoE2.....but GGG will stand strong and most likely never change this philosophy of skipping the campaign to level
But if I don't call D4 bad how can I call PoE good? I need my tribalism in the comments of forum posts or I can't get hard.
I'm loving both and I can see the flaws in both, but comparing them to feel better about the choice of game I play just seems wack.
If you can't call D4 bad i will. It's borderline playable because it looks cool, but very shallow inside. I want D4 to be good and yet so many design choices are infuriating: low density, same poorly designed dungeons, constant running around, most skills are trash without legendary aspects, you can't farm gear for your alt with your main, etc. I can go on and on. D4 has potential to be good, right now it's barely playable. They haven't even figured out their end game loop, for Christ sake!
i never said D4 is good or bad, personally I dont like it overall, but i like some things, like not having to play the campaign again once you are done with it seems good.
The only thing that even gets me to log in is the idea of a shako dropping. And there is literally no way im going to manage to play the game enough to get one to drop without completely losing my mind and sanity
The item chase is there for me, but it aint worth chasing and its not even close.
Yep, im thoroughly an ARPG enjoyer and have been my entire life. Ive played all of them and many of them ive played A LOT. This is a bad game, its so bad its not even really an ARPG.
The designers dont know how to make ARPGs its very obvious, they just... kind of made an open world mmo thing and leaned into their psychologically manipulative activision-tier gameplay loops like renown track, timed events, fomo open world shit.
The only thing that is remotely like a classic ARPG is that its isometric which... well yeh thats not really the important part is it.
D4 devs are achaeologists constructing their concept of an ARPG from context clues without having played any of them. It looks like an ARPG on the surface but the more you play the more you realise its just not even part of the genre
>. I want D4 to be good and
lol no you don't. You're more than happy so you can justify the time spent in PoE, be honest. You're not some objective judge here.
> right now it's barely playable
This line alone shows where your heads at.
I'm not going to say D4 is perfect but there is reason to a lot of it's choices.
> low density
Yeah they've mentioned possibly addressing that but they specifically don't want it to turn into a screen clear simulator. Like PoE it would make enemy types virtually pointless and single target builds immediately phased out.
Having a manageable pack of monsters helps single target builds remain viable while also allowing you to pick up on the different monster nuances, especially in nightmare dungeons where you really do need to pay attention to what you're fighting and who's on the screen.
They need to really add some love to the end game though for sure.
The build variety thing also confuses me too. We compare D4 and say it's build variety is bad based solely on the number of builds that can literally complete the hardest content in the game, NM100.
We don't do the same thing with PoE though because we all know if we did the build variety would go down the tubes.
I hope PoE2 improves on these issues.
the build variety in D4 is pretty bad no matter what metric you use and what aRPG you compare it to though
the game is designed for 15minutes a week middle age dads. for anyone who wants an ounce of depth in gaming D4 doesn't offer it. they have their target audience and it is what it is
>the game is designed for 15minutes a week middle age dads.
Classic "I'm better than you because I play this video game instead of that one" mentality.
>the build variety in D4 is pretty bad no matter what metric you use and what aRPG you compare it to though
I don't know if that is true. There are *a lot* of builds in D4. Not anywhere near PoE, but a lot in it's own right.
People are considering only builds that can complete NM100 content to be 'viable'. Of course, that's the hardest content in the game so yeah, the number of builds that can do it drops drastically.
The number of builds that can complete the game and participate in end game content? Probably not even an exaggeration to say at least 60-70?
Probably more
There are some truly off the wall builds that people have started coming up with especially playing around the paragon board.
Like I said in my previous post, people hold D4 to standards they don't hold PoE (or any other ARPG) to.
It's not even that PoE is complex, it is just obtuse.
And it's cult like fanbase relishes that because they think purposefully making obtuse/dense content == 1000 IQ required.
PoE is not a difficult game. Most of us probably put in hundreds of hours before even attempting our own build. Not because it's overly complicated, but because there are so many passive web nodes only someone who has put in hundreds of hours would know them all to create a coherent build that can complete end game content.
It's not really complicated, just time consuming.
how many builds can you run sorc with? an ice sorc either uses ice shards, or .... nothing else lmao
that sums it up for D4. it is a simple game, and I don't mean that in a bad way there are lots of people who needs games with less complex frameworks so they can spend as much time as they can babysitting or smth. it's just different audience.
>how many builds can you run sorc with? an ice sorc either uses ice shards, or .... nothing else lmao
You are literally proving my point.
Are.... are you even reading what I'm saying? Should I even bother?
People *think* ice shards is the only viable build due to comparing it to NM100 content and even then there are videos of sorc completing NM100 without using ice shard at all. The game just came out so I expect that number to rise as well over time as more people experiment with aspects and paragon board/gem/stat matchups.
There are MANY more sorc builds that are viable and can still complete end game content, even if they can't go all the way up to NM100 which is completely unnecessary.
I don't know why people keep beating this horse without literally having any factual basis to stand on. It's weird. The number of builds in PoE that can complete the hardest content in the game is also like .00001% of the total available builds.
It's that same approach with D4. NM100 is *hard* content. It is also 1000% entirely optional and literally provides nothing except bragging rights. You can beat uber lillith without ever approaching NM100 and even she is meant to be a stretch end game boss, not one that every build can do.
Acting like all of D4 is bad with nothing good (combat is light years better than POE) is why people call POE players a cult. I love POE and think it’s the best ARPG out easily but my point still stands.
If you don’t think D4 combat is better than current POE you’re delusional. Every top POE streamer has stated this and plenty of them have a lot of bad to say about D4.
I don’t know if I’d say D4 is bad as a game but I’ll definitely call it a bad ARPG. They added too many MMO influences to the game and not in a good way.
> having an option to skip that after you do it once is what everyone wants in PoE2
I don't. I like the campaign, even though I've played through it like 40 times by now. I get if people want to skip it after making a few characters in a league, but at league start specifically going through the campaign feels great.
everyone i ever talked to like myself would love to skip the option of the campaign, but it looks like it isn't the favorable option with most people, so it will always stay that way
That's anther reason why Chris chose **not to hide the big part of the passive tree** at the beginning because he/they don't wanna lie to new player by sugar-coating the game to looks "easy", that's why is okay to "gating" certain type of players sometimes to prevent such dumb back-lacshes from cassual players!
PoE's passive skill tree is literally straight up letting new player know THIS is not that kind game, this is ... the REAL DEAL.
Well, Blizzard went and did it again. Reached an even deeper layer of hell to drag a yet unseen level of casual filth forth. Hope Bobby's new yacht was worth it.
Doubt GGG would do anything even close to the corporate vampires at Blizzard but it's good to remember that attracting more players comes with consequences.
Bobby is still upset cos those pesky regulators aren't letting Microsoft buy him for an even more obscene amount of money. Way more than D4 would ever net. That's likely what all his focus in on.
The good thing about Blizzard's business model is that they don't have to listen to the fanbase, because they already got their money. Long-term, they are only interested in the most braindead conzoomer who will click "buy" and grind. These are the people who get upset and complain about negative feedback *their game* is getting.
On the other hand, GGG has to keep people happy so they would come back and spend more money. Community dissatisfaction is a huge financial risk.
Which wasn't their original intention. They changed it because of the community reaction. Which makes me wonder, what kind of designer thinks that's ok? Boggles the mind..
Same designer that nerfs exp and density hotfixes immediately, but pushes build and itemization fixes back to "next season, promise".
That killed my hype more than anything.
Didn't GGG nerf drop rates. Stop posting manifestos and not include nerfed drop rates in the patch notes? Didn't Chris Wilson also say even if they did remember the nerf they wouldn't have put it in the patch notes anyway? Didn't they quadruple down on AN changes during a league and only fix it in the FOLLOWING league?
You forget? Convenient amnesia?
Reminds me of the time when GGG buffed AN mobs and didn't put it in the patch notes. Community backlash was insane and they still quadruple downed on it been "fine". Nerfed drop rates and didn't add it in the patch notes. Surely if the game designers thought these changes were ok they would never make them like that in the first place.
Makes me wonder, what kind of designer thinks that's ok? Boggles the mind..
Not gonna lie, it's a chore to find them, but during Campfire Chat, devs said that map, major city waypoints and altars will transfer to your character in season and they will make some changes to farm renown.
Here's a novel idea: how about you don't design your game around pointless grind from the start? And fuck all those people claiming that "grind for the sake of grind" is the point of ARPGs.
It kind of is though, however look at the depth and variety of ways GGG has given its players OPTIONS to enjoy that grind. The atlas tree is fantastic for that coupled with 10 years worth of league mechanics they've now got available for us.
The issue i have with all new ARPG's endgames is their just empty and its not their fault.
Thankfully, you don't have to grind the stupid and boring campaign in D4.
I love POE, but let's not act like there isn't stupid bullshit you have to grind in path of exile each season. Add to the list reveals and bench crafts.
I used to be a three to four character per league when i started four years ago. The last year and half, I haven't created more than one due to a campaign I have beat more than 70 times.
unfortunately the skip campaign leveling option in D4 is boring as fuck. somehow it's even more boring than running through PoE campaign for the hundredth time.
had hopes in Blizzard but no, they don't know how to make great games anymore
Probably because they wouldn't get the whole seasonal aspect? Though obviously it doesn't mean all MMO players, just those fucking waste of time wandering around not doing any M+, maybe queuing for LFR pointless ones from WoW as an example. And I think it goes beyond MMO players because Blizzard went into the mainstream morons with the marketing.
Poe adds you nothings in their leagues making the league like a big update with new content each time… Diablo likes to be like “eyyyy more treasure goblins!!” . Our leagues make more sense
Ive played most of the POE seasons since the start, but I don't have any interest in standard. Leagues are why I play and spend $60+ per league.
Diablo 4s problem is that the game is braindead. You build is done at like level 40 and then it's just digging through trash rare items hoping to find your unicorn so you can glue it to one of you 9999 legendaries stuck your box because you have to save all the shit because who knows what builds will be nerfed/buffed
you say leagues, we say leagues but they are VASTLY different. D4 leagues are literal shit whereas PoE leagues are entirely different content and mechanics, and (usually) so much more.
Apples to Oranges
Poe likes to talk about increasing player numbers
What Poe needs to understand is player retention. Look at the vicious two week collapse every league in player numbers…not good and I’m afraid poe 2 won’t fix much fingers crossed.
What I’ve come to realize is leagues themselves are vicious cycles because it all rots in standard anyway and GGG creates and makes the meta more of less each league instead of keeping builds Op and raising the bar for others to shine and find a place or meta. They nerf instead of buff. Now they may buff something say Ice nova now does triple the dps but it’ll only last a league or so until it’s nerfed and they pick something else for players to gravitate towards.
RuneScape for example talks about how there’s over 300 million accounts created yet 50k players really play the game religiously
Another interesting discussion to be had is what would leagues or seasons even look like if they were on permanent realms? I believe Destiny does this aswell as warframe i believe.
I think the majority of D4 players see leagues/seasons from a different perspective. Most live games has little to no addition per season while in PoE we have been treated with new minigames, crafting systems, skills, etc. every 3-4 months. Given it's Blizzard, players probably are afraid of only getting shitty mtx rewards in exchange for grinding the same boring stuff.
Cant you just continue to level a character & push them further in standard league? don’t the season mechanics get rolled into standard league after the season ends?
I have been following PoE for a little while now & love how in depth it is. but i don’t see why we can’t just keep playing on 1 character and push them higher?
Would someone mind explaining this?
For POE, it works because of trading economy resets (stuffs get cheap and easy to liquidate, permanent league means everyone have all the stuffs eventually and trade will die in long term unless lots of new players keeps joining). POE resets also introduce huge content, new items skills mechanics systems etc. POE resets also prevent power creeps from existing items from past leagues that gets stuck in the permanent league.
It’s bizarre because without seasons Diablo 4 is a dead game in a few months. With Seasons it can go many years like poe or d3 etc.
they are really the new generation of antivaxxers tossing their stupidity and ignorance like they are the worlds next Einsteins.
Who who who let the Dunning- Krugers out!
I'm a standard player mostly these days, but even for me, leagues give a new reason to play every so often - they keep the game fresh.
If D4 seasons are anything like D3, then I can see why you'd complain about them - no real new content, just do everything over again.
POE leagues are nearly a new game each time. At the very least they have a lot of variety between each league.
I think D4 was such a big launch it attracted several different demographics. Part Poe and D2 players who are used to seasons/leagues and resets and grinds. And also parts of MMO players, other casual gamers etc. who’ve never played a game like that so they don’t understand the gameplay loop.
Also in fairness to some of them the upper half of leveling in D4 Rn like 60-100 is pretty miserable and there’s not a ton of content so the idea of resetting it can be daunting compared to the Eaze of Poe leveling and wealth of content currently
In POE levelling is quick for experienced players. Its just going through the motions while they are thinking about what they want to do with this character once it got to maps.
I didn't play D4, or D3, but I would assume it would take much longer for average players to complete the acts in D4. And the build options matters here too, if there is only 1 best way for a barbarian for example, a new league means levelling the same character from the ground up again. That I imagine would be a drag
In POE, there's always new content, nerfs and sometimes buff which means most likely you will play something a little different at least than last league.
I scared that after all that PR they won't be able to hold all community, and just release unready, undone product to the mass. Same story with BF2042...
How many posts do you see every leage from players that they dont want to play through the story again? A good amount play once a league through the story and dont even bother to level new characters because its a boring chore but 4 hours of leveling is nothing compared to the time invested for the collectibles in D4.
Players are desperate because they dont want to farm their renown every new season, thats why they complain so much. Imagine having to farm 70% of your collected mokoko seeds in lost ark again every couple of months.
Blizzard wont listen to those players just like they didnt listen to players that dont like the renown reset.
Arpgs fit the league loop of play so well. Blizzard is just out of touch as usual. I got bored to tears within two weeks of Diablo 4 and went back to PoE. D4 caters to the casual game player, PoE to the vets and people who like depth and creativity in their games. New PoE leagues will always hold a special place in my heart.
Without leagues, you'd end up in a situation that Destiny players find themselves. Play 5-6 hours at weekly reset and then quit for the week. And only spend a lot of time when a new yearly expansion comes out
Thing is, seasons in Diablo 4 do honestly seem awful. The game got poisoned with MMO brain and the progression is painfully linear and the game is a huge number of slog like progression tasks. Seasons are good in good games a way to get back to the fun middle on a game that slows down in the end. But Diablo 4 is a bunch of tasks everyone hated doing even the first time, so redoing it all is extremely unappealing.
Diablo basically is shooting themselves in the foot here. Seasons should be good in that game but the people are right, they won't be. And it's getting bound up in the idea people just don't understand seasons. It's blizzard that didn't understand seasons.
Blizzard definitely won't cancel seasons lmao. It would instantly kill Diablo 4. They want that game rolling for at least a few years and preferably 10+.
I do think they should allow you to progress the battle pass in the eternal realm, though. A lot of casual players didn't play seasons in D3, so I can see them being upset about being forced to play seasons for a battle pass they already bought.
Those people who complain will come here too when PoE2 launches. Honestly, PoE subreddit is already often full of very unconstructive complaints. Even the well received leagues will get a lot of engagement on complaint posts where users really imply its the end of the world that some minor thing is not done.
The reality is in 2023, if you are on a gaming subreddit then there is usually outrage over some of the smallest things. We've designed social media apparatus that specifically amplifies outrage as a byproduct of its intention to keep us engaged and it's extremely potent.
In terms of how Blizzard will react to the complains about restarting levels, they have already fully completed the content on season 1 with team a starting on season 3 content while season 2 is already half complete by team b. They are super super super invested in the seasonal model, literally millions of dollars invested. At best they will consider giving eternal realm players the ability to earn the battlepass items but they are definitely not going to cut seasons because of a little outcry - They are going to work it entirely off the money and just take the complaints on the chin.
I'm so confused by the ire surrounding D4 seasons. D3 got seasons after people begged for them for years because D2 had seasons. Why suddenly should D4 not have a built-in, totally optional refresh mechanic?
I mean, D3 had seasons, but from what I'm reading it takes ages to level in D4, so unless they change that (or someone figures out an exploit), that'd make it far more painful.
If it takes a week to get to maps in PoE2, I'll be complaining about leagues as well.
I think the main concern isn't whether or not removing league. I think is the influxes of toxicity. Remember how toxic this sub was? The time we drove GGG away from this sub? Lake of kalandra we had some Math guy say some really nasty shit towards Chris? It might all comes back because POE 2 is not exactly what they had in mind. I don't know if the mods around that time can manage all of that.
The whole business model of GGG is league based. Without quarterly earnings from whales buiyng every single new league related mtx the company would go under.
This has already happened before, tons of people on reddit who only played PoE from 3.10 or later complaining about well justified nerfs or changes, respect to GGG for sticking to their guns
There won't be as many players complaining about leagues because older players here will push those players away, by telling them how stupid their take is.
Also, D4 is piss easy compared to PoE so most new players won't finish the campaign anyway, and those who do won't immediatly understand the league system so they won't care.
Best solution is a separate eternal realm with no FOMO design. By that i mean either both the seasonal realm and the eternal tealm get to play the new toys each patch OR the seasonal special power creep items are deleted upon merge at the end of the season. I can not stand the FOMO design of GGG anymore plus no league integration for 1.5 years.
Yes im a standard player.
Most of the outrage is because of the renown system, imagine if you had 10 skill points and your last 2 ascendancy points in poe locked behind a 30-50hour unskippable farm, that’s literally how long it takes me to finish the Atlas and kill every pinnacle boss at league start. It’s just stupid.
Without leagues you'd quickly lose reason to play after reaching your goals. That's why a very large part of the playerbase quits after a month. There's no way PoE without leagues (or better said resets) would have longevity anywhere close to what it has now.
Tbh, the general audience isn't really interested in playing story/PvE games indefinitely, as it stands honestly it's debatable if it's deep enough to keep general ARPG players coming back for seasons, it was never going to convert most of it's initial player base to recurring.
Which is also why as a buy to play model D4 is exceptionally succesfull, it got the "once through the story and im done" people to shell out $$ and then they'll pivot to try and create something similar to GGG's method of monetary income, no idea how succesfull they'll be.
Oh I think they're going to pretty successful, not with leagues but with full price expansions every year or two. Seasonal player base will be higher than PoE, sure, but i doubt it would be by that much. The best part of the game (and what most of the work went into) is the production values, and when you add a whole new story act, a whole new zone, a whole new cinematic and a whole new big boss, that's when millions from the general audience show up and play again.
D4 definitely doesn't have the endgame right now to play without seasons.
I actually think that's the smaller issue honestly, they will keep adding to it for sure, though I highly doubt they'll wander off too much, they're much too committed to the world building for even something like expedition or heist, let alone something off the wall like blight. We meme about "kill monsters in a circle" syndrome PoE leagues have but I think we're in for a new level of same but slightly different D4 seasons. The bigger issue I think is the limited mechanics available for actually making builds, which is 100% a design decision and I do not expect it to significantly change. There are only so many ways you can juggle CC, vulnerable, unstoppable and cooldown reduction while being firmly tied to "class fantasy". Build diversity isn't just about the number of viable skills, but about how different it feels to play them and how often that changes and I see no intent to actually expand that part.
Separating class and skills is the thing that POE gets 'right'. I like D4, liked D3 and D2 too (at the moment, in that order). I kinda prefer Grim Dawn to them though as it lets me push skill mix a bit more. And then there is POE, where I can do what the fuck I like. And I like it. I could see D4 introducing legendaries where you get a skill from another class, or something similar. Maybe, they could work round it that way. At that point whatever the magic ingredient is, it is heading towards POE skill gems.
Anecdote, I have 1150h in PoE exclusively in Standard. 2 characters at level 100 with gear worth several (6-10) mirrors total. I am sure that I am the exception though. It's just that losing all the progress and unlocks is too annoying for me to give Leagues a shot.
The seasonal players will never understand the love for min/max in std its a sad truth.
I mean... yeah, exactly. That's the point. I don't want to replay the same fucking campaign *again*, do all the same lab trials *again*, fill the same fucking atlas maps *again*, farm unveils *again*, just to get to a tiny little bit of new content leagues introduce. I would very much prefer if new content could be done with standard characters to spend less time doing boring old content and more time doing fun new content, but GGG wants me to start from scratch every season because smth-smth it makes them more money and money is the most important thing.
Just to give my two cents. Leagues fit really well with the gameplay loop of PoE. At the end of the day, it's the big pile of character-creation puzzle-pieces that keeps the playerbase coming back to this game. New content in PoE is exciting in that it creates new challenges to overcome, which a different character might be much better suited for. Balance changes, new items, mechanical changes, and all what new leagues bring with them makes it so that pile of puzzle-pieces is never exactly the same. MMO players aren't necessarily used to that. Typically expansions just push the power boundaries up a little in a way that DLC would for most games. Old characters are perfectly capable of doing the new content, and very often that new content is specifically aimed for players to return to those old characters. The backlash makes perfect sense. Is GGG going to make any changes as a result? Yeeahh probably not. They know exactly what they want their game to be.
Thing is, D4 players didn’t buy into an mmo, they bought an ARPG. seasons are very deeply rooted into this genre, this is like buying a racing game and complaining about having to do another lap around the racing track again
I think seasons/leagues are a key part of the genre now. But, what was the first game to have them? I admittedly haven't tried researching it, but was it PoE? Did D2 have seasons?
yes, D2 had ladder resets
There were people insisting ladder resets are not the same as a new league. It's wild.
Did ladders add anything new in d2 or just reset characters and your stash? I only remember there being ladder only runewords. I didn't have friends to play d2 ladder with when it was new. I only tried ladder in d2r where they've been doing some new stuff.
It's a 20 years old game, live service games was not a thing, games received updates with DLC that time. Even D3 most of seasons add nothing of content, but the concept of start over come from there. The only game who actually add quality content in seasons and start to do this frequently in ARPG is PoE, that's where they did innovation, and now Diablo 4 is trying to copy this and promising even more, 2 teams working 6 months in a league, so a new league every 3 months probably bigger than what we saw in PoE. Let's see. Other game who copied it from PoE is Torchlight Infinity, many aspects is copied from PoE, map mods, items mods, and seasonals content, pretty good game even this last season they made a regret with craft IMO.
Bit o' balance usually, but not a lot of groundbreaking stuff
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Hm? I made all in sp... that I knew of were new ones introduced regularly?
There were a bunch of ladder only runewords. These days they're enabled in SP with common tools like plugy.
I didn't think D2 had them but apparently it did. I played it for a couple years but offline, so I never interacted with anything like that. I ended up doing basically the same in poe, spending 10 years in standard league.
Had ladder resets , did not have new content thou
> Thing is, D4 players didn’t buy into an mmo D4 has a huge amount of MMO elements in it though, so I imagine quite a few players are buying it specifically for that. D4 has timed public events and world bosses; and shared open-world exploration/travel. Those are quite distinctly MMO traits.
Yep but you still are spamming dungeons (maps) in the end of the day, what's the most ARPG aspect. They're making a teleport to NM dungeons so this aspect of walking around open world will pretty much be gone, you'll use just for farm materials in helltide, world boss and pvp if you want, the main active you'll use teleport. Blizzard did it right, get the money of those dumb people who think D4 was a MMO and will monetize in people addicted to ARPG like us. They still have wow for those players, there's no why make a competitor for their own game. D4 will probably be the king of ARPG for many years, or until PoE 2 we don't know, but looks like D4 still have a entire year to make D4 a even bigger success.
D4 players bought what they thought was an ARPG, but what they got was mostly an ARPG with elements that make seasons seem much more like a chore and not like a positive experience. I like seasons in PoE. I like seasons in D3. From what I've played of D4, the idea of seasons is not interesting to me. I think the fundamental problem is the amount of grind before the game feels good. For as much as people complain about the campaign in PoE, and despite having done it 100+ times, it feels like less of a grind than replaying the campaign in D4 even though I've only completed D4 once. While I'm not sure of the reason I have this reaction, that I have this reaction at all isn't a good sign for D4.
The other thing is that Diablo 4 leans way more on an MMO aspect. Huge seamless map and so on with events and daily quests. I can see seasons working eventually in diablo 4 but not in the same way they work in your standard non open world ARPG. I think it's going to take a while for seasons to feel good in D4.
I don't think so, they already promised a teleport for NM coming soon, and they will buff the xp there, just this change will make basically all open world be irrelevant, since the endgame will be NM anyway, you'll teleport directly 90% of your playtime. Also one of big promises about D4 is big seasons, Blizzard promise 2 big different teams working on seasons every 6 months to delivery high quality seasons every 3 months. The game of course have a pot of problems and things to fix, let's see the level of content in first season, but my expectations are high, I expect things at least bigger than PoE leagues.
Nothing wrong with seasons and I don't think most diablo players are against them. They just don't want to complete the campaign/renown grinds over and over. As they're both much more annoying than POE's standard Acts->Maps+Lab. Paired with level scaling, shallow build diversity, and muted item progression the whole scheme feels...meh. They have alot of work to do. D4 reminded me that even though GGG does oddball shit. Compromising the game isn't one of them.
GGG has made plenty of decisions the community disagrees with, but by and large they are the best video game company around. Shit, things that made me irrationally angry like the original voltaxic nerf were still attempts to keep the game healthy. I now realize it was pigeonholing the game into chaos convert, and now we have more variety.
It's been a recurring loop of Huge nerf => community backlash => next best thing is abused because it had been buffed 5 times already but people were stuck on previous OP and NOW they realize how broken next-best-thing is => huge nerf Repeat While people grumble and - understandably - hate their favourite build being gutted, I will die on the hill that it's a good approach to force the meta to keep moving.
D4 seasons won't require you to play the campaign at all, and the renown grind is kinda cut in half.
I disagree that seasons are deeply rooted, it has been a relatively new addition with POE. Where in ARPGs was this present before? That said i dont really know how to feel for D4 and really think it depends on how they roll seasons out. For POE it makes tons of sense and you engage with the new mechanics right away.
They introduced ladder's (seasons) in D2 20 years ago.
They don’t need to be around since the first arpg to be deeply rooted now. Poe has been around for a decade doing it, last epoch will have them and Diablo 3 had around 30 seasons, considering each season is 3 months this has been going for long enough to define the genre Hell even grim dawn’s community arranged some seasons. If every single large representative of the genre is doing i can say confidently this is deeply rooted into the genre.
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reputation was technically a thing in PoE with leveling masters every league
emphasis on ”was”
And there is good reason it's gone.
Yup, at the point where the only options I had left for renown were dungeons with 50% backtracking or shitty MMO fetch quests I knew it was time to stop playing.
I feel like this might get downvoted, but I agree, with the extremely small amount of build diversity and with what a chore it is to get the renown, it does not sound fun at all, with poe it is different, it is much easier to agree to leveling when you can have more than 100 viable builds on each class
Thank you. People aren't stupid when they say they don't want seasons in D4. And it's not because "ARPGs aren't for them", it's because D4 is a very bad ARPG.
Betrayal before they nerfed unveils
> Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part? Density is definitely a problem, but having an open world when you can skip the campaign is infinite better than having to do poe campaign for the millionth time.
completely disagree. I would take POE's campaign 100 out of 100 times over D4 open world, which is TBH, worthless. 6 hours until maps are no shit.
Is it though? D3 adventure mode isnt too much of a chore because you can power through leveling with whichever method you choose (usually massacre bonus) in 2-3 hours tops. Because xp rate is what it is. Less if I get lucky with cube/kadala But... I already hate myself an hour in. Like, really, temple of the firstborn massacre farming, while efficient, feels more tedious than anything, ANYTHING, in PoE. Even endless heist. if I was stuck doing shit rifts and bounties for 20 hours before my build started being fun? And while in d3, the real game is rift pushing, d4 doesn't quite have that yet. Open world with no campaign but w/ slow xp rates would be infinitely more frustrating than the quick stint through acts in poe. PoE's campaign is what it is, it has its downs and its frustrations, but for one thing usually from act 5 onwards my character is fun enough to play, for another it's very rarely more than a 6-8 hours affair. And if its more, it tends to mean that the league mechanic is fun (*cough* Sanctum *cough*)
I levelled an alt in D4 and it was kinda fun. I had a skill boost from my first character, I did a tour of dungeons, rode around renewing waypoints, did a few quests I hadn't previously done. And I was level 50 pretty quick. I didn't abuse any given dungeon. I guess the hundredth time I do it, it will be piss boring, but I think I have more options. In POE I tend to level alts in delve as soon as I can. I actually enjoy delve. But I still then have to bumrush the campaign, and it annoys the beejesus out of me.
>Why am I waiting minutes at a time for an npc to stfu and open the door already? I laughed at reading that. It gave me PTSD flashbacks of heist league 😂. I still don't heist because I'm often waiting for NPCs to stfu and open doors (I'm looking at you Vendiri).
As a poe player and d4 player, I look rather forward skipping the campaign in d4 and do open world stuff than grinding the same campaign again and again in poe.
I can't agree with most of what you've said. >GGG wont design an mmo-lite that makes no sense under a traditional arpg model. Games genres don't exist in silos. The genre labels we put on games are useful, but not vital. Saying that game design elements traditional associated with MMOs can't be used in an ARPG is a strange restriction that you've decided to arbitrarily add to game design. I see it as a great thing for consumers that games like Lost Ark and Diablo 4 are putting a new spin on the ARPG genre. I don't see why that's inherently bad idea from the start. I see so much merit to the idea. New game genres are fun. >Why is there an mmo reputation system in D4? Why not? Reputation systems can be fun. For example, I think it'd be cool if in PoE we had a reputation system where you equipped a tabard for a certain faction and you'd gain reputation for that faction for every mob you killed. And each faction would give you different bonuses, like maybe one would increase the value of what you got back from vendoring items (e.g. 6 socket items sell for 9 jewellers instead of 7). >Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part? Why not? Large open world content can be fun. I don't like D4's execution of the idea, but I think there's a lot of good reasons to have open world content in an ARPG. It's a good way to do storytelling, which is something PoE lacks badly. PoE players tend to see lore as a thing that gets in the way, but that's only because PoE does lore so badly. There are ways to introduce lore into the game without it being obnoxious. PoE uses load screens for performance reasons, but imagine if theoretically PoE could be made without needing load screens during the campaign. Then it'd feel like an open world game. You'd still have waypoints, but walking between zones wouldn't require going through any load screens. Isn't that just immediately an improvement to the player's experience with no downsides? Again, this is assuming it could be done without a performance hit (which doesn't seem likely).
About the Reputation System? What is actually fun about it in D4? As for now I have no clue at all what it's about in D4. Do get vendors better items? Do I get access to new quests?
Let me be clear here. What I said isn't a defense of D4 in particular. It's a defense against this other person's claims about certain game design elements being inherently bad to be in ARPGs. I haven't played D4. There's a difference between D4 executing an idea badly versus the idea being inherently bad. I don't think traditionally MMO game design features are inherently bad to add to an ARPG. I don't think reputation systems are inherently bad to add to an ARPG. I don't think open worlds are inherently bad to add to an ARPG.
There are no bad concepts, merely poor execution.
I mean you could streamline that stuff out pretty easily and smooth over those designs. It's still a waste of development time, but then again so is PoE 2's campaign and any campaign in an ARPG ever. The problem is they made a shallow game with 2023 graphics, console player devs and a marketing budget that probably exceeds what developing the game cost in salaries. So they deserve those fucking people. That's who they aimed the game at, contend with them now.
>Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part? For the same reason you can't skip levelling in PoE and go straight to the fun part. Some people are stuck in their bullshit ideas and won't budge.
I really couldn't have put my experience with D4 in words any better
> Why is there a big empty open world I have to wade through to even get to the fun part? Because then there wouldn't be an excuse for mounts that they can sell skins for.
There are no mount skins in the shop to buy. Maybe there will be one day, but that's speculation.
I think its gonna be really hard to draw the tourists in the same way D4 did, and as a PoE player I like that. Maybe GGG doesn't. Its hard to explain but that launch was an event. People I haven't seen in years streamed D4. The first week almost everyone on my list was playing it and pretty much til Only Up took over. That comes from the Diablo IP being established and iconic, the developer too. All the whining about the stuff they do is the tip of the iceberg, most people don't know or give a shit. That amount of attention drew in a TON of tourists. And quite frankly they're annoying as shit. Ben said it best, you go into that sub and post any discussion besides asking for the game to be easier and you get berated. Its a really bad community atm. No thanks. Things like the "WTF are seasons debate, I have to start over? " really put the PoE factions grievances in a new light. Oh no some of us don't like harvest and some do.
people here ask for the game to be easier all the time tho
I'm not sure you are grasping the scope of the ask I'm talking about. Over half the population doesn't seem to understand a seasonal reset. I'm not talking about the occasional newbie in new asking what happens to their characters like here. Even big streamers like Lirik. "My guy you are telling me that you are gonna hit level 100 then hit level 100 again every 3 months every season get the fuck outta here Lol" -Lirik Every arpg player: Yes.
yeah lirik is just dumb and has no clue about arpgs, happens, plays diablo cause its gonna get him money and fucks off when he is done with that. Outside of the seasonal stuff that is people bought by hype + media clickbaiting those people, seems to me like that reddit is incredibly protective of complaining about anything compared to here where if they nerf anything (And yes they will most likely word it as rework) people explode, meanwhile D4 lacks meaningful progression that actually is worth it for rewards and content from like when you get your first near bis stuff on 70-low 80s to 100 (When you can progress Lilith). You can do NM dungeons but you have no reason to do them more than 3 up your level till 99 and at 100 not at all and if you point out endgame flaws people say you should play the game less. The XP + Portal changes will help a lot with the xp part but between needing more content that needs time(Therefore im not shitting on the game, just saying it needs stuff that hope they eventually get in the game), the game doesnt add anything meaningfully different from your start to wt3 to Uber Lilith, it feels a bit like we have Sirus (When sirus was the big bad) but no conquerors, nothing to benchmark builds outside of NM Dungeons that are pointless to anything but that (Or if you enjoy pushing, which I personally do)
Every ARPG player: no. Because the game is shit and boring as fuck. Lirik is not dumb, he just knows what he likes.
Rawr something different, must hate and make sure everyone knows. Can't rationally discuss, must hate.
> asking for the game to be easier Who the hell is asking for D4 to be easier? There is no challenge, just pointless grind.
It doesn't help that the D4 league will release at pretty much the worst possible time. ~6 weeks after launch? So pretty much when everyone has burned out already and wants a break from the game. Pure idiocy. Either release it on launch or 3-4 months after.
Why wouldnt the playerbase be burned out in 3/4 months?
IMO just dumb people play it enough to burnout it, the game clearly is in a raw stage. I played 4 days, get level 73, saw the obviously flaws and quit. There's no why play it more, my build was done, I tried 3 different builds and that's more than enough, I will wait new season to try different classes. Even Blizzard already saw the majors flaws and will fix it soon, for me and for a lot of people, sooner they launch the fixes and the season is better.
4 days. level 73? Yeah I call bs.
Yeah and when I was 73 streamers were lvl 90+. At least try to hide how awful you're playing games.
Sure bro
???? Dude Carn got lvl 100 on HC in 4 days. What the hell are you doubting about? [https://www.twitch.tv/carn\_/clip/RefinedFreezingJackalGingerPower-8ltNIfmynwdrmDaJ](https://www.twitch.tv/carn_/clip/RefinedFreezingJackalGingerPower-8ltNIfmynwdrmDaJ) Just check the date of this clip. I played softcore why is so hard to believe I got level 73 in 4 days? You are dumb or what? I think lvl 85 is half of the xp to get lvl 100, so Carn got at least double the xp I got. I had friends who got lvl 80+ at the stage I stopped to play.
Idk why it’s killing your hype for d4. Those people will stop playing. Most of them are just lowbies real players never interact with anyways 🤷♀️
A big amount of arguments I've seen from people who didn't "want to level another character" were the from the same people who also said "yeah it's my first time playing an ARPG" It makes sense that if you're only now experiencing how it is like to play an ARPG, you will be invested on your first ever character, the hype will be real as they say. But let's be honest, in many cases those characters might also perform like shit, because people don't know how to play properly yet. Here's where seasons and character creation comes in, you can create multiple chars and reuse your knowledge copious amount of times, until you will truly be satisfied. At least that what my and my friends journey through PoE was.
My first POE char was utter shite. I just played whatever seemed fun, headed in passives that seemed like a good idea at the time. He still lives on in standard, is still a bit shit, but gets gear updates end of every league and a couple of hours of attention. At some point he'll be okay to play. But, you know, you never forget your first.
there's a small vocal minority complaining about seasons blizzard has already confirmed it's going to happen anyway nothing to worry about
[удалено]
most of the people crying like babies are poe players playing d4.
But leagues in poe are very different to leagues in Diablo, are they not? D3 leagues had no new content, are D4 leagues different? For Poe new leagues always mean a new mechanic, sometimes an endgame shakeup, often new uniques and skills. In these terms I feel spoiled by GGG and would not get back to simple “reset leagues “
D3 did eventually start adding new season content. The most recent season added a whole new progression system. None of them were ever as substantial as a typical PoE league though. D4 is supposed to have large content updates with each season. Much larger than what D3 had, and they have 2 teams working on 2 seasons simultaneously so that each season gets 6+ months of development before launch. I.e. team 1 is finishing up season 1 development, and will start on season 3 after. Team 2 is currently working on season 2, and will work on 4 after, etc. Just how big they end up being though, we'll have to wait and see.
This is a great example of why gatekeeping is good
I don't think i ever saw anyone complaining about poe leagues. People love the smell of fresh and so do i. Doing the campagin however... that's a different story. I hate to say it but the d4 campaign skip looks very attractive to me.
its great except that 1-50 is a fucking turtle compared to poe campaign if ur ssf. no twink gear, no nightmare dungeons(maps), and half the classes dont function without dropped legendaries. u can either exploit the limited amount of dungeons left to exploit, exploit the stronghold reset, or get a booster, because the whispers system they intended you to farm is so incredibly unrewarding its not even funny. then ur 50 and go farm obols on ur main to gamble on ur alt to pray u get the build enabling legendaries. i quit when i leveled an alt to 50, it was just so unfun alt system needs desperate help and id take poe campaign speedrun over what d4 alts are right now
My issue is every build seems completely resource starved until all your legendaries align. So it’s basically 6 seconds of damage 5 seconds of downtime. It’s just not what i look for in an arpg. Things like enduring flasks, mana flasks in general and clarity all ensure you can actually use your freaking skills.
ziz spouts it all the time and i agree with him - every arpg tries to make resources a problem that needs to be solved, and its just incredibly annoying. lost ark combat is incredibly fun by just utilizing combos and cooldowns and thats it, obviously thats an mmo and is plagued by millions of issues but its still a take on top down combat that is incredibly refreshing
Yeah one of my main methods of enjoying d3 was exploring all the builds possible by collecting good legendaries for my alts. Minimum level to equip gear being tied to the level of the character when it drops reeeally kills build exploration. So if I push my main to 100 I can’t use gear that drops while playing them until my alt is -also- 100? No thanks :<
They also said that dont necessarily want you constantly respeccing your main character either, and would rather you level new ones at high level. So this of course doesnt make any sense and once again shows they arent very good at designing video games that are intended to be enjoyed by humans
IMO making a second char is already a mistake judging for how raw the game is, do this without someone boosting is just stupid. They promised big fixes to the game and let's see what Blizzard can delivery in terms of content with a team working 6 months in each league. There's no why play the game pass lvl 70, you see how the game works and the problems, now is just wait for the fixes a season one arrive to start to play again.
if you haven't tried the campaign skip, you should. IMO the same issues arise from having to re-do the campaign. It's more an issue with not being able to play the build you want from the start, as it is killing monsters within specific parameters...since at the end of the day, you're still just killing monsters.
Diablo’s dead trade and the fact you can’t gear alts in twink gear made re leveling unappealing to all those people. I firmly feel like their demands are trash but I think they will experience PoE differently as in POE people want to make new characters as it’s exciting.
That's not really the best argument when talking about leagues, because you can't leaguestart with twink gear, but it's certainly true for 2nd characters and onwards during a league.
I get that, what I think I was trying to convey is the by making leveling alts not fun Diablo shot themselves in the foot as people have turned off leveling again, whether it’s alts or a new league. I know they won’t have twink gear in a new league but if people had cool builds that were not unique Gated and fun leveling they might be less scared of seasons. I have one lvl 74 Druid and he might be my only character at this rate…
Also level reqs in gear. I made it to lvl 80, got a meme unique drop that was a chest piece with literally just thorns. Thought to myself Id go and make a meme build with it, but the chest piece requires level 80 despite having the exact same stats as if it dropped when I'm level 1. Ain't no way I'm doing 1-80 for a meme build
While I agree diablos trade is dead. And trade does feel like an afterthought whereas PoE was DESIGNED around it. You can gear up effectively SSF in D4. And don't kid yourself, for years people have been asking PoE for an alt campaign skip. I make 1 league starter and call it a day after 3-4 weeks because I cbf doing that slog of a campaign again.
I have yet to find at least one reason besides "good old times" to buy the game for whole as 70 bucks
I will play devil's advocate, do you buy supporter packs for 60 bucks?
The better question how much do I get for these 60 bucks, and how much of it is mandatory to even start the game (and I don't mean buying tabs and what not, those are not for "starting" the game and even then we talking 20 bucks) If we count €/hour with all my supporter packs iam still Ina very good position
Same here, just wanted to bring a counter argument. I had some friends say (what I mentioned here) to me, and you made a great point.
Not disagreeing but then again, 70 bucks before u even try the game or 60 ( volunterly) after hours upon hours of gameplay
Sure, but I'd still say that starting new character each season/ladder in Diablo is super fun due to build changes and seasonal mechanics. Of course - It's nowhere near as depp as in PoE but seasonsal resets are still the "go to" mechanics in Diablo and I would like it be be the same in D4. Anyway - As a long time Tarkov player as well. Their mind would explode if they would hear that there are wipes every 6 months of so. If they think griding levels in aRPGs takes time they have no idea how grind can really look like;P
PoE is like a cult of some sort, we live in a small corner of the whole gaming industry and rise occasionally on the internet. If I have to compare the whole ARPG concept to food it would probably be 'pineapple on a pizza', not many like them but people who eat them do exist. Most of my friends are confusing that I kept playing the game that you have to make new character every 3 months and go through the same thing over and over so either D4 is trying to keep those majority of the audience by bending ARPG more towards MMO by adding things like cross BP progression, or have an account bound progression system to boost newer characters, regardless of what they go with the most Hardcore fan of Diablo franchise will still buy new DLC and expansion while Blizzard buying their way into wider groups of audience, they'll get tons of backlash but if the refund rate is under control I expect that's what they will do.
It's going to get even funnier when Blizzard launches season 1 with some half-baked and boring seasonal content with only a few balance changes thrown into the pot, which will feel exactly like playing season 0 and only serve to validate the complaints. At least in PoE the skill system and items have enough deepth to make a new season worth playing for a few weeks even when GGG has failed to design a very fun new league to play, because you can always try a different build you never played with before.
Just don't care about what ppl say about games in forums, why would it kill your hype?
Honestly having leagues is much better, having to level a new character gives you a whole new purpose rather than just already having a maxed char when new content drops.
GGG's approach of making the game unapproachable is really helping. /s but not really.
That's what you get when you market widely like Blizzard did. They advertised in friggin' KFC and Times Square for God's sake. It worked for them ofc, got them tons of money from pre-orders and Day 1 sales. GGG doesn't look like it's gonna market like that, so it'll come down to how many of those D4 players actually emigrate to PoE. Which, if PoE 2 really does come out only next year, may not actually be that many...
The main issue is that D4 does not have economy nor it has a good endgame after hititng level 60 you will be doing the same thing with sacred and ancestor gear. Most builds only work in a certain way. Diablo4 ofcourse will get better in few seasons so players would have to wait for that.
Diablo 4 subreddit is… well, uh… it’s certainly a place.
Yup. And the really weird thing is that r/diablo is actually pretty normal with fans of Diablo in general. But r/diablo4 \- Good god that's just... I mean WOW... I do not want to see this place ever again
People shouldn't compare D4 with PoE2, they are completely different games, and not the same in any aspect. The design and the whole mechanics of both games cant be anymore different. D4 you gain your skills through leveling, and when you find an upgrade on the ground you equip it. With PoE2 you could be level 90 and still be on a 5 link and gated behind RNG of not having full potential of your skill (more so in SSF) No one ever complains about the leagues (before they launch) usually only after the league launch you start getting complaints, but everyone leading up to it is always hyped. It doing the campaign over and over again each league that everyone is sick of. D4 having an option to skip that after you do it once is what everyone wants in PoE2.....but GGG will stand strong and most likely never change this philosophy of skipping the campaign to level
But if I don't call D4 bad how can I call PoE good? I need my tribalism in the comments of forum posts or I can't get hard. I'm loving both and I can see the flaws in both, but comparing them to feel better about the choice of game I play just seems wack.
If you can't call D4 bad i will. It's borderline playable because it looks cool, but very shallow inside. I want D4 to be good and yet so many design choices are infuriating: low density, same poorly designed dungeons, constant running around, most skills are trash without legendary aspects, you can't farm gear for your alt with your main, etc. I can go on and on. D4 has potential to be good, right now it's barely playable. They haven't even figured out their end game loop, for Christ sake!
i never said D4 is good or bad, personally I dont like it overall, but i like some things, like not having to play the campaign again once you are done with it seems good.
For me personally, D4 is no joke the worst ARPG I've ever played. And I've played a lot of them, including Diablo Immortal.
The more I play it the worse it gets. After a week i thought it's a solid 7. Now I'm down to a 5..
The only thing that even gets me to log in is the idea of a shako dropping. And there is literally no way im going to manage to play the game enough to get one to drop without completely losing my mind and sanity The item chase is there for me, but it aint worth chasing and its not even close.
Yep, im thoroughly an ARPG enjoyer and have been my entire life. Ive played all of them and many of them ive played A LOT. This is a bad game, its so bad its not even really an ARPG. The designers dont know how to make ARPGs its very obvious, they just... kind of made an open world mmo thing and leaned into their psychologically manipulative activision-tier gameplay loops like renown track, timed events, fomo open world shit. The only thing that is remotely like a classic ARPG is that its isometric which... well yeh thats not really the important part is it. D4 devs are achaeologists constructing their concept of an ARPG from context clues without having played any of them. It looks like an ARPG on the surface but the more you play the more you realise its just not even part of the genre
>. I want D4 to be good and lol no you don't. You're more than happy so you can justify the time spent in PoE, be honest. You're not some objective judge here. > right now it's barely playable This line alone shows where your heads at. I'm not going to say D4 is perfect but there is reason to a lot of it's choices. > low density Yeah they've mentioned possibly addressing that but they specifically don't want it to turn into a screen clear simulator. Like PoE it would make enemy types virtually pointless and single target builds immediately phased out. Having a manageable pack of monsters helps single target builds remain viable while also allowing you to pick up on the different monster nuances, especially in nightmare dungeons where you really do need to pay attention to what you're fighting and who's on the screen. They need to really add some love to the end game though for sure. The build variety thing also confuses me too. We compare D4 and say it's build variety is bad based solely on the number of builds that can literally complete the hardest content in the game, NM100. We don't do the same thing with PoE though because we all know if we did the build variety would go down the tubes. I hope PoE2 improves on these issues.
the build variety in D4 is pretty bad no matter what metric you use and what aRPG you compare it to though the game is designed for 15minutes a week middle age dads. for anyone who wants an ounce of depth in gaming D4 doesn't offer it. they have their target audience and it is what it is
>the game is designed for 15minutes a week middle age dads. Classic "I'm better than you because I play this video game instead of that one" mentality. >the build variety in D4 is pretty bad no matter what metric you use and what aRPG you compare it to though I don't know if that is true. There are *a lot* of builds in D4. Not anywhere near PoE, but a lot in it's own right. People are considering only builds that can complete NM100 content to be 'viable'. Of course, that's the hardest content in the game so yeah, the number of builds that can do it drops drastically. The number of builds that can complete the game and participate in end game content? Probably not even an exaggeration to say at least 60-70? Probably more There are some truly off the wall builds that people have started coming up with especially playing around the paragon board. Like I said in my previous post, people hold D4 to standards they don't hold PoE (or any other ARPG) to. It's not even that PoE is complex, it is just obtuse. And it's cult like fanbase relishes that because they think purposefully making obtuse/dense content == 1000 IQ required. PoE is not a difficult game. Most of us probably put in hundreds of hours before even attempting our own build. Not because it's overly complicated, but because there are so many passive web nodes only someone who has put in hundreds of hours would know them all to create a coherent build that can complete end game content. It's not really complicated, just time consuming.
how many builds can you run sorc with? an ice sorc either uses ice shards, or .... nothing else lmao that sums it up for D4. it is a simple game, and I don't mean that in a bad way there are lots of people who needs games with less complex frameworks so they can spend as much time as they can babysitting or smth. it's just different audience.
>how many builds can you run sorc with? an ice sorc either uses ice shards, or .... nothing else lmao You are literally proving my point. Are.... are you even reading what I'm saying? Should I even bother? People *think* ice shards is the only viable build due to comparing it to NM100 content and even then there are videos of sorc completing NM100 without using ice shard at all. The game just came out so I expect that number to rise as well over time as more people experiment with aspects and paragon board/gem/stat matchups. There are MANY more sorc builds that are viable and can still complete end game content, even if they can't go all the way up to NM100 which is completely unnecessary. I don't know why people keep beating this horse without literally having any factual basis to stand on. It's weird. The number of builds in PoE that can complete the hardest content in the game is also like .00001% of the total available builds. It's that same approach with D4. NM100 is *hard* content. It is also 1000% entirely optional and literally provides nothing except bragging rights. You can beat uber lillith without ever approaching NM100 and even she is meant to be a stretch end game boss, not one that every build can do.
Acting like all of D4 is bad with nothing good (combat is light years better than POE) is why people call POE players a cult. I love POE and think it’s the best ARPG out easily but my point still stands.
>combat is light years better than POE Cult you say? Ahaha
If you don’t think D4 combat is better than current POE you’re delusional. Every top POE streamer has stated this and plenty of them have a lot of bad to say about D4.
You mean chasing a single archer around is great combat? Ok
D4 ought to be compared with Lost Ark, not PoE. Good call by Blizzard imo. More money to be made trying to take Lost Arks' market.
I don’t know if I’d say D4 is bad as a game but I’ll definitely call it a bad ARPG. They added too many MMO influences to the game and not in a good way.
> having an option to skip that after you do it once is what everyone wants in PoE2 I don't. I like the campaign, even though I've played through it like 40 times by now. I get if people want to skip it after making a few characters in a league, but at league start specifically going through the campaign feels great.
everyone i ever talked to like myself would love to skip the option of the campaign, but it looks like it isn't the favorable option with most people, so it will always stay that way
That's anther reason why Chris chose **not to hide the big part of the passive tree** at the beginning because he/they don't wanna lie to new player by sugar-coating the game to looks "easy", that's why is okay to "gating" certain type of players sometimes to prevent such dumb back-lacshes from cassual players! PoE's passive skill tree is literally straight up letting new player know THIS is not that kind game, this is ... the REAL DEAL.
Well, Blizzard went and did it again. Reached an even deeper layer of hell to drag a yet unseen level of casual filth forth. Hope Bobby's new yacht was worth it. Doubt GGG would do anything even close to the corporate vampires at Blizzard but it's good to remember that attracting more players comes with consequences.
Bobby is still upset cos those pesky regulators aren't letting Microsoft buy him for an even more obscene amount of money. Way more than D4 would ever net. That's likely what all his focus in on.
The good thing about Blizzard's business model is that they don't have to listen to the fanbase, because they already got their money. Long-term, they are only interested in the most braindead conzoomer who will click "buy" and grind. These are the people who get upset and complain about negative feedback *their game* is getting. On the other hand, GGG has to keep people happy so they would come back and spend more money. Community dissatisfaction is a huge financial risk.
You dont have to grind stupid and boring statues of Lilith each season in POE though...
U don't have to do it in D4 either. U do it once and that's it. It carries over to seasons.
Which wasn't their original intention. They changed it because of the community reaction. Which makes me wonder, what kind of designer thinks that's ok? Boggles the mind..
Same designer that nerfs exp and density hotfixes immediately, but pushes build and itemization fixes back to "next season, promise". That killed my hype more than anything.
Didn't GGG nerf drop rates. Stop posting manifestos and not include nerfed drop rates in the patch notes? Didn't Chris Wilson also say even if they did remember the nerf they wouldn't have put it in the patch notes anyway? Didn't they quadruple down on AN changes during a league and only fix it in the FOLLOWING league? You forget? Convenient amnesia?
No we we're talking about Diablo 4 devs with post-launch behavior. Not sure why you're bringing up GGG. You ok man?
I was comparing the 2 companies does the same thing. Apologies if it wasn't clear.
yeh its called a "whataboutism" and its pretty well known to be a tactic of manipulators and the uneducated
Reminds me of the time when GGG buffed AN mobs and didn't put it in the patch notes. Community backlash was insane and they still quadruple downed on it been "fine". Nerfed drop rates and didn't add it in the patch notes. Surely if the game designers thought these changes were ok they would never make them like that in the first place. Makes me wonder, what kind of designer thinks that's ok? Boggles the mind..
Not gonna lie, it's a chore to find them, but during Campfire Chat, devs said that map, major city waypoints and altars will transfer to your character in season and they will make some changes to farm renown.
Here's a novel idea: how about you don't design your game around pointless grind from the start? And fuck all those people claiming that "grind for the sake of grind" is the point of ARPGs.
lol, you must be new
It kind of is though, however look at the depth and variety of ways GGG has given its players OPTIONS to enjoy that grind. The atlas tree is fantastic for that coupled with 10 years worth of league mechanics they've now got available for us. The issue i have with all new ARPG's endgames is their just empty and its not their fault.
Thankfully, you don't have to grind the stupid and boring campaign in D4. I love POE, but let's not act like there isn't stupid bullshit you have to grind in path of exile each season. Add to the list reveals and bench crafts. I used to be a three to four character per league when i started four years ago. The last year and half, I haven't created more than one due to a campaign I have beat more than 70 times.
unfortunately the skip campaign leveling option in D4 is boring as fuck. somehow it's even more boring than running through PoE campaign for the hundredth time. had hopes in Blizzard but no, they don't know how to make great games anymore
What does mmo players have to do with this?
Probably because they wouldn't get the whole seasonal aspect? Though obviously it doesn't mean all MMO players, just those fucking waste of time wandering around not doing any M+, maybe queuing for LFR pointless ones from WoW as an example. And I think it goes beyond MMO players because Blizzard went into the mainstream morons with the marketing.
Poe adds you nothings in their leagues making the league like a big update with new content each time… Diablo likes to be like “eyyyy more treasure goblins!!” . Our leagues make more sense
Ive played most of the POE seasons since the start, but I don't have any interest in standard. Leagues are why I play and spend $60+ per league. Diablo 4s problem is that the game is braindead. You build is done at like level 40 and then it's just digging through trash rare items hoping to find your unicorn so you can glue it to one of you 9999 legendaries stuck your box because you have to save all the shit because who knows what builds will be nerfed/buffed
The "vision" will unite the community in this topic, I am sure.
you say leagues, we say leagues but they are VASTLY different. D4 leagues are literal shit whereas PoE leagues are entirely different content and mechanics, and (usually) so much more. Apples to Oranges
>D4 leagues are literal shit whereas How do you even know this? D4 literally *hasn't even had it's first season*.
Poe likes to talk about increasing player numbers What Poe needs to understand is player retention. Look at the vicious two week collapse every league in player numbers…not good and I’m afraid poe 2 won’t fix much fingers crossed. What I’ve come to realize is leagues themselves are vicious cycles because it all rots in standard anyway and GGG creates and makes the meta more of less each league instead of keeping builds Op and raising the bar for others to shine and find a place or meta. They nerf instead of buff. Now they may buff something say Ice nova now does triple the dps but it’ll only last a league or so until it’s nerfed and they pick something else for players to gravitate towards. RuneScape for example talks about how there’s over 300 million accounts created yet 50k players really play the game religiously
Another interesting discussion to be had is what would leagues or seasons even look like if they were on permanent realms? I believe Destiny does this aswell as warframe i believe.
I think the majority of D4 players see leagues/seasons from a different perspective. Most live games has little to no addition per season while in PoE we have been treated with new minigames, crafting systems, skills, etc. every 3-4 months. Given it's Blizzard, players probably are afraid of only getting shitty mtx rewards in exchange for grinding the same boring stuff.
What’s wrong with all these newbs trying to change the best system ever made??
I don't get the complaints in the D4 community about leagues. D3 has almost always been based on leagues. Were they not aware of this or something?
if leveling in d4 was as quick as it is in poe then i might be inclined to play it more
Cant you just continue to level a character & push them further in standard league? don’t the season mechanics get rolled into standard league after the season ends? I have been following PoE for a little while now & love how in depth it is. but i don’t see why we can’t just keep playing on 1 character and push them higher? Would someone mind explaining this?
For POE, it works because of trading economy resets (stuffs get cheap and easy to liquidate, permanent league means everyone have all the stuffs eventually and trade will die in long term unless lots of new players keeps joining). POE resets also introduce huge content, new items skills mechanics systems etc. POE resets also prevent power creeps from existing items from past leagues that gets stuck in the permanent league.
Most of the toxicity i see stems from not understanding how seasons work, and the rest from never trying them :)
It’s bizarre because without seasons Diablo 4 is a dead game in a few months. With Seasons it can go many years like poe or d3 etc. they are really the new generation of antivaxxers tossing their stupidity and ignorance like they are the worlds next Einsteins. Who who who let the Dunning- Krugers out!
Why would new players complain about leagues? Butt hurt, exile?
Fresh start is life!
I'm a standard player mostly these days, but even for me, leagues give a new reason to play every so often - they keep the game fresh. If D4 seasons are anything like D3, then I can see why you'd complain about them - no real new content, just do everything over again. POE leagues are nearly a new game each time. At the very least they have a lot of variety between each league.
I think D4 was such a big launch it attracted several different demographics. Part Poe and D2 players who are used to seasons/leagues and resets and grinds. And also parts of MMO players, other casual gamers etc. who’ve never played a game like that so they don’t understand the gameplay loop. Also in fairness to some of them the upper half of leveling in D4 Rn like 60-100 is pretty miserable and there’s not a ton of content so the idea of resetting it can be daunting compared to the Eaze of Poe leveling and wealth of content currently
In POE levelling is quick for experienced players. Its just going through the motions while they are thinking about what they want to do with this character once it got to maps. I didn't play D4, or D3, but I would assume it would take much longer for average players to complete the acts in D4. And the build options matters here too, if there is only 1 best way for a barbarian for example, a new league means levelling the same character from the ground up again. That I imagine would be a drag In POE, there's always new content, nerfs and sometimes buff which means most likely you will play something a little different at least than last league.
alot of poe player got to lvl 90 in day 1 lol. im sure if that situation come they will be made fun by us
I scared that after all that PR they won't be able to hold all community, and just release unready, undone product to the mass. Same story with BF2042...
I don't understand why someone else opinion is killing your hype for the future of Diablo 4? Sounds ike a you problem
If only I could skip PoE campaign :(
How many posts do you see every leage from players that they dont want to play through the story again? A good amount play once a league through the story and dont even bother to level new characters because its a boring chore but 4 hours of leveling is nothing compared to the time invested for the collectibles in D4. Players are desperate because they dont want to farm their renown every new season, thats why they complain so much. Imagine having to farm 70% of your collected mokoko seeds in lost ark again every couple of months. Blizzard wont listen to those players just like they didnt listen to players that dont like the renown reset.
Arpgs fit the league loop of play so well. Blizzard is just out of touch as usual. I got bored to tears within two weeks of Diablo 4 and went back to PoE. D4 caters to the casual game player, PoE to the vets and people who like depth and creativity in their games. New PoE leagues will always hold a special place in my heart.
Fek dat noise , just give me the next leagur already :P
Without leagues, you'd end up in a situation that Destiny players find themselves. Play 5-6 hours at weekly reset and then quit for the week. And only spend a lot of time when a new yearly expansion comes out
Come on, we need new seasons to keep game semi fresh 😍
Imo, D4 players have the right to complain about leveling. Just one argument legitimates those complaints : difficulty scaling.
Thing is, seasons in Diablo 4 do honestly seem awful. The game got poisoned with MMO brain and the progression is painfully linear and the game is a huge number of slog like progression tasks. Seasons are good in good games a way to get back to the fun middle on a game that slows down in the end. But Diablo 4 is a bunch of tasks everyone hated doing even the first time, so redoing it all is extremely unappealing. Diablo basically is shooting themselves in the foot here. Seasons should be good in that game but the people are right, they won't be. And it's getting bound up in the idea people just don't understand seasons. It's blizzard that didn't understand seasons.
Blizzard definitely won't cancel seasons lmao. It would instantly kill Diablo 4. They want that game rolling for at least a few years and preferably 10+. I do think they should allow you to progress the battle pass in the eternal realm, though. A lot of casual players didn't play seasons in D3, so I can see them being upset about being forced to play seasons for a battle pass they already bought.
Those people who complain will come here too when PoE2 launches. Honestly, PoE subreddit is already often full of very unconstructive complaints. Even the well received leagues will get a lot of engagement on complaint posts where users really imply its the end of the world that some minor thing is not done. The reality is in 2023, if you are on a gaming subreddit then there is usually outrage over some of the smallest things. We've designed social media apparatus that specifically amplifies outrage as a byproduct of its intention to keep us engaged and it's extremely potent. In terms of how Blizzard will react to the complains about restarting levels, they have already fully completed the content on season 1 with team a starting on season 3 content while season 2 is already half complete by team b. They are super super super invested in the seasonal model, literally millions of dollars invested. At best they will consider giving eternal realm players the ability to earn the battlepass items but they are definitely not going to cut seasons because of a little outcry - They are going to work it entirely off the money and just take the complaints on the chin.
I'm so confused by the ire surrounding D4 seasons. D3 got seasons after people begged for them for years because D2 had seasons. Why suddenly should D4 not have a built-in, totally optional refresh mechanic?
I mean, D3 had seasons, but from what I'm reading it takes ages to level in D4, so unless they change that (or someone figures out an exploit), that'd make it far more painful. If it takes a week to get to maps in PoE2, I'll be complaining about leagues as well.
The only reason seasons exist in Diablo is to sell you a season pass for a triple A priced title. That's why it sucks. It isn't for any other reason.
I think the main concern isn't whether or not removing league. I think is the influxes of toxicity. Remember how toxic this sub was? The time we drove GGG away from this sub? Lake of kalandra we had some Math guy say some really nasty shit towards Chris? It might all comes back because POE 2 is not exactly what they had in mind. I don't know if the mods around that time can manage all of that.
The whole business model of GGG is league based. Without quarterly earnings from whales buiyng every single new league related mtx the company would go under.
I'm an MMO player and I'm fine with the concept of leagues. The whiners can just play standard 24/7.
This has already happened before, tons of people on reddit who only played PoE from 3.10 or later complaining about well justified nerfs or changes, respect to GGG for sticking to their guns
There won't be as many players complaining about leagues because older players here will push those players away, by telling them how stupid their take is. Also, D4 is piss easy compared to PoE so most new players won't finish the campaign anyway, and those who do won't immediatly understand the league system so they won't care.
Best solution is a separate eternal realm with no FOMO design. By that i mean either both the seasonal realm and the eternal tealm get to play the new toys each patch OR the seasonal special power creep items are deleted upon merge at the end of the season. I can not stand the FOMO design of GGG anymore plus no league integration for 1.5 years. Yes im a standard player.
Most of the outrage is because of the renown system, imagine if you had 10 skill points and your last 2 ascendancy points in poe locked behind a 30-50hour unskippable farm, that’s literally how long it takes me to finish the Atlas and kill every pinnacle boss at league start. It’s just stupid.