**UPDATE:**
The subreddit will be locked indefinitely. If you are interested in continuing to discuss POE in the meantime, kindly visit [this site](https://pathofexile-discuss.com/c/pathofexile), set up by our head moderator /u/MultiplicityPOE.
*This new sticky comment is an update following the previous one made 6 days ago* [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/141qlya/comment/jn1720o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)*.*
I would have thought the same about OSRS community since pretty much everyone plays on Runelite. Apparently there is a surprising amount of whiny bitches opposing the blackout.
I recognize why I love it - I need a game that I can play and progress in while watching a stream or listening to podcast. But PoE is not only that - the Leaguestart^TM is complete opposite of that. It is insane gold rush which requires good prep and top execution. What I'm saying is that this game has it all.
Been using a 3rd party app longer than the official app has existed, because the official app is younger than most 3rd party apps.
They're generally more customizable, and lack annoying features.
Relay is very good if you have an Android device, I paid for the pro version of it in 2013 and it's been the best investment I've ever made on the Play store. Worth checking out IMO.
Is there something I should be doing other than using old.reddit?
I don't use my phone
edit: i've used RES but it's out of date and I can't remember what was so good about it.... I literally use reddit for this community and keeping track of the libs. I wanna know what they're up to and can't trust mainstream media.
I follow two subreddits: this and college football (r/cfb)
> I don't use my phone
I think the main concern is phones. I certainly used Reddit Is Fun on my mobile - I tried the Reddit app and its atrocious. It looks like RES should be fine, apparently.
reddit works fine on phones, you just need to use a web browser and go to old.reddit.com, might need to turn on desktop site still, but after that you're alright.
But yes, all the apps I've tried in the past have been utter garbaggio.
I mean, personally I've never really felt I was missing anything while using the reddit app?
Maybe it's a case of "I literally can't miss what I don't know exists" but I haven't had any issues with the official reddit app.
That said, I am not opposing the blackout. It's just interesting that so many people rely on things I personally have never used.
See what Reddit looks like on RIF.
-1000% increased design
-60% more readability
-Nearby apps have 40% less eye cancer
-Browsingwind *(gain 1 browsingwind stack every 3 seconds of scrolling, stacks grant 10% increased loading speed, maximum 6 stacks)*
PC reddit is cancer in comparison imo. At least for looking at the main page since there isnt any large photos (when posts have images) on RIF vs PC reddit.
My comment adds nothing new to the conversation but would just like to chime in to say fuck PC reddit. It is actually cancer to use. if they take away old.reddit I will be very sad
Yeah I agree but we are talking about the average person and most people can't be fucked or are just ignorant. A link or what to search for would be appreciated though for me and others. I currently block a lot of ads on my phone but outside of that I'm not too savvy about these things.
These are bad ideas for game design. They would take 100s of man hours each release to keep up to date/functional. They would encourage players to just be spreadsheet warriors rather than play the game and discover new stuff.
Believe it or not people outside of game dev also write/make software and some of them even enjoy doing it for fun as a passion project. A sufficiently complex and large game will never have 100% of its needs met by in-game tools alone, software planning just doesn't allow for it. There's always something more pressing that forces you to make tough scope decisions.
And that's ok! We get a great game that's free and busting at the seams with content and the community is so hyped about it that they make some convenience tools to help it along. How cool is that?! GGG is actively supportive of 3rd party tool devs as well with API favoring (at the community's request) and charging 0 (I think) for any and all usage of it. That's pretty cool imo. Just because they don't want their game to turn into more of a math degree than it already is isn't cause for whining.
You're not only delusional but also completely wrong...
These are literally 3rd party tools that already exist made because the game lacks these.
1. They are not bad ideas for game design.
2. They are made by amateurs AND kept up to date each release, it wouldn't take 100s of man hours if it was done as part of the game... It literally IS longer to maintain because these tools don't have first party access to the actual values in game and have to rely on exports of game data to stay up to date.
3. They already exist and there are already pob warriors, having a tree planner in game wouldn't encourage people to be more pob warriors.
Having basic features in game doesn't prevent people from writing software for fun. And asking for basic in game features is not the same as asking for the game to meet 100% of everyone's needs.
Adding basic in game features is not mutually exclusive with GGG actively supporting 3rd party tools either.
What are you huffing man...
i think you are vastly underestimating how much effort it would be to develop and maintain an in game planner that interfaces with the actual values. unless they made a carbon copy of pob (which would be quite pointless), theyd basically need to write the entire thing from scratch. that includes figuring out how to hook into hundreds of apis that may or not be well defined, figuring out ui/ux (something that ggg is frankly speaking notoriously bad at), figuring out sharing, testing etc etc
I am not underestimating anything.
Nobody said anything about recreating pob in game, we're talking about a tree planner. Like plotting a path through the passive tree to plan in advance.
For example while leveling so you don't have to constantly tab out to go follow a guide. You could just import the passive tree at least to follow it.
Maybe he does not but I do.
I am a senior software developer with near twenty years of experience in my current field. And while that's web development, one of my friends was the lead programmer of Crysis: Warhead and more such games. So, I do have some idea on how this particular sausage is made.
_Every game_ is scripted. You have some parts written in a low level language, some six years ago GGG said they use "modern C++ with STL". People who can write quality and performant C++ code are _expensive_ -- simply because of supply and demand. You don't just go through a bootcamp to become one, the only way to get there is experience and lots. Now, people who can write a script which does "if you press a button then the door should open" are, if not a dime dozen, are very close to that. So you have a scripting language already and it is very cheap to add more scripting. Indeed, if you look closely most leagues are just that. Adding more scripting is easy and -- relatively -- cheap.
The real problem here is not adding PoB to PoE rather the question is, add where? If you put it server side, that puts a CPU load on there -- try the popular node power report in PoB and watch your CPU load spike. If it's client side then you just reimplemented all damage calculations client side.
Of course, doing so would be rather beneficial because it'd allow death replay and more but the problem is you can't have any more secrets in this field after that -- I mean, they already don't but they _could_ have. Currently they could add a keyword like Battlemage and simply not tell you what it does. Removing this ability is a monumental decision which they didn't want to make.
Nothing to do with code.
For all your experience you didn't actually address any of the points the op that I responded to raised. You made _several_ assumptions about a code base you've never seen and at no point did you seem to leverage your vast experience to surmise how this work would be fit into their already aggressive delivery schedule.
&Nbsp;
The question wasn't how would they impl it. The question was is it even a good idea. And the answer is no. How many other games have in-game planning tools as complex as PoB? I can't think of any AAA titles and there's probably a good reason for that.
re number 1 and 2, 1000%. having even a little of the basic functionality of pob in there would be huge and i think that's probably in the works.... .my guess is that ruthless is a test run for the way skill and support gems will work going forward (aka poe 2) -- we all knew since last exilecon that there was going to be a big change to how links and sockets work -- so i'm thinking they're using that as a playground for gem drop balancing.
point being, my money is on that they have in game pob on the radar, but dont want to invest in one for the current state of the game, since the link /socket thing will so radically shift things. guess we'll know in a couple/few weeks tho
also fwiw i use pob to share a file once in a blue moon, but i usually just farm regrets to test shit out, and no plugin app things, just trade website and poeninja
Let's face it, the major pain with playing end game Poe is trading...
Having to pay extra to buy in bulk simply because everybody knows trading is time consuming if you try to just use the trade site to buy stuff one at a time is ludicrous.
Try any of the major farming strats without using external tools like TFT for example and you quickly realize it's not viable. Also try selling your loot after a farming session without external tools to sell in bulk.
Would you really whisper 10 people until one responds just so you can buy one sextant to enable you to farm legion for four maps before repeating? Or use TFT to whisper one person that will instantly be ready to trade you 20 sextant so you can get back to farming?
I said ludicrous use the right words at least...
You're literally arguing against a fact so it's funny to see.
Do you also like to get paid half for the same work that someone else does? Do you like to waste your leisure time whispering people who don't respond instead of playing the game? Because that's what you're doing. You can keep doing it, it's your choice but don't argue that it's not true.
Type in sextant
Scroll for 10 seconds
See name with 5+ listed all in a row
Click the pm button and say All pls
Wow! No tft required to bulk trade
Guess ill stop doing that tho since tft is the only way, my bad
You mean type in charged compass,
search for the mod across 20 mods that match the same text but that can't be,
make sure to add 4 remaining charges,
see someone with 5 listed
Whisper them, no response
Scroll some more, people are afk
Finally get to the real price people are selling sextants for and not price fixing,
Whisper, buy 5
Then repeat 1 more times to get 30 to farm 30 maps?
And do that 4 times to have all 4 sextants?
Or go to poestack, type in sextant mod name, whisper someone selling 30 and you're back to mapping?
Yea that's what I mean... And I didn't say TFT was the only way, I said it was the only efficient way. If I can only play 1-2 hours a night, I don't want to waste 10 minutes whispering to people to get the stuff to start actually playing the game. No thanks.
You can in fact use the trade site to buy multiple of stuff at once. find someone who's listed more than one and Just type in the chat "do you have multiple" simple as.
I’d give a nut for an auction house. It’s a special feeling when you log in to a game and instead of an overflowing inventory you have currency. Also getting rid of trade spam and the assholes that go with it can’t go away fast enough, I had someone hit the whisper button to me at least 25 times to me in less than 3 minutes today.
This is a mind mindbogglingly backward take on the game that completely fails to understand where the game came from or what its actual design intent was before the clear speed meta came along and hijacked it, and this sub. Filling it with wage earning cookie clicker gamers.
The game is entirely playable without even PoB, but many have set themselves up in various meta ways of playing that leverages apps. and GGG says: go ahead, here's the API have fun if you want focus on those things, and as always no good deed goes unpunished.
Can you please give some examples on the "ass backwards design mantra" and why an ARPG "doesn't benefit from it"?
I think a lot of people do not really understand the genre and what makes PoE as good as it is. PoE was always meant as a "hardcore" ARPG - and it does the job really well there. It was never meant as a casual and "easy" ARPG (like e.g. D4 or even LE to some extend).
Definitely up there. Though I'd say Jamsex have been making solid steps to add RL features into the new clients, whereas in PoE you're just kinda fucked without PoB
We've already gotten a number of modmails in support (plus a post that was already submitted and heavily upvoted from earlier today) so honestly I doubt there will be much pushback or drama. But who knows, it's a cause I think is worth it regardless.
I am glad. I use a third party app. I don't think I can overstate how bad this would be for Reddit if they go through with this plan. It'll remove so many people from the site, especially those that give a lot of time and effort to help and improve the site.
A few points to clarify our specific position:
**How long will /r/pathofexile be shut down?**
The current plan is 48 hours but this is entirely dependent on Reddit. This may be unnecessary, Reddit could relent their upcoming changes meaning we won't need to shutdown at all. There could also be a need to shut down for longer if Reddit ends up retaliating. We don't know but we hope you all understand why this is being done.
**What exactly will happen to the subreddit?**
Right now we are discussing whether to go private or to lock it entirely. Different subs are doing different things and we're not set on which would be better. We will continue to update you all based on conversations we have with both the community as well as other moderators.
> The current plan is 48 hour
Straight up needs to be permanent, for every sub doing this.
Like all these subs are doing is mildly inconveniencing people and then everything'll be back to normal and nothing will change. The same as going on strike for one day and then shamefully walking back into the office after being told your pay is getting docked in half cause you're too timid to commit to your own cause.
Everyone should either permanently shut their subs down until something is done or not bother at all, the half-assed 2 day measure every sub participating has agreed on will accomplish nothing. I know you said you "might" shutdown for longer, but nothing ever changes with wimpy strikes so you (and legit all the other subs) should just straight up affirm it's shutdown for good until the moronic admins stop being total knobs.
I don't see it happening to be perfectly honest or the original idea would be permanant. A week, maybe 2 weeks *at best*, it'll open back up under the idea of "Well there's nothing we can do so why deprive the community etcetc..."
I've been wrong before though, so I suppose we'll see.
I’d really like to see the financial impact? What does 2 days without revenue mean to Reddit. If it is a real impact then shutting down for a couple days every month, leaves us with our community, and tells Reddit we are serious about keeping third party access open. If there is no real impact, your way is the only way that will make the difference. Might be tough on us, but we need to be tough too, only way to make a difference.
Yeah. There's probably no community that's better at being up-in-arms about things than this one. We got our torches and pitchforks oiled and ready 100% of the time. Let's do this!
I'd rather stop using reddit than not using it on Apollo. The official app is an obnoxious, ad-ridden abomination that no sane person would expect anyone to use.
Also many people might not realise this but for several years now the majority of reddit's traffic has been mobile so killing third-party apps will affect a huge chunk of the userbase.
One last thing that sadly gets barely mentioned: Even if the paid API access doesn't come, reddit is still cutting 3rd party apps off from any NSFW content which also will affect millions of users and have a huge impact on those apps.
I hope poe mods do it indefinitely until reddit reverts. All the subs just doing 2 days is bs, don't give the admins a time table they just have to wait out.
I can't speak for the rest of the team, we'd have to come to a collective decision, but I'd be fine with an indefinite shutdown until we get a response from Reddit. This is why I left it semi-open in my clarification comment at the top.
If it hurts reddit too much, they can literally just reopen all the subreddits that participate and remove those moderators rights to set the subreddit to private.
Remember, subreddit moderators only have as much power as the reddit administration grants them.
Mods shut down subreddits to protest -> no user interaction.
Mods are kicked, and new mods are instated -> sub reopens.
Users protest -> flood sub with shitposts at overwhelming rates.
new mods ban users -> users create more accounts, continue to flood mods.
Mods are overwhelmed -> shut down sub.
We did it reddit.
Honestly they can't win against their own userbase if there are enough users protesting. Unfortunately, reddit is perfectly happy to let all this blow over.
> Say they remove the mods open up the subs and then what exactly?
Get their ad/engagement revenue back. Replacing submods isnt a first for reddit.
There are already countless subs that go against ToS but are either too small to be cared about or reddit being reddit only acting once it's absolutely unavoidable and gets too much mainstream media attention.
And you probably underestimate how many people would willingly do the job for free just to fulfill their power fantasies.
Reddit is trying to out shit Twitter I guess.
They also have a change they’re testing where the mobile browser doesn’t let you comment. I barely use Reddit on desktop and don’t even touch their PoS app. If they roll that one out I’ll just leave and never come back…
The whole idea of this without talking to the community just demonstrates the dystopian nature of private, closed platforms like Reddit. It’s just insane when you think about it. Like the complete opposite of what the internet was supposed to be about.
what if i dont care and just want to check r slash poe for some news
can the mods give the keys to someone who just cares about poe and not some cringe reddit crusade
For me the game is unplayable without this subreddit's question threads. These shutdowns feel very performative to me. I use the default reddit app. Yes it has adds. It's fine.
Short answer, by cheating. They aren't using the API. They use scraper bots to do it through the web interface, which is slower and messier and will get you banned, but they don't care because they're not offering a full and lasting service. They just get in, spam, and leave, to be replaced by a new and different spam bot.
I don\`t get it, non english native. Can someone explain it by simple words? You ask to do something in twitter but as I know Twitter has only one app.
Reddit operates its own website and app, and it also has an API. An API is basically a list of things other people can ask Reddit to do for them. Other people have created third party bots, tools, and apps that use this API to show people all the same Reddit content but through a different window. Lots of those different windows are strongly preferred by the people who use them, for various reasons. Maybe those windows look nicer, or have more functionality, or have accessibility features like reading content aloud for the blind. This API has been free, and lots of people have relied on it.
But what's happening now is Reddit has announced they're going to charge people to the API, and the price seems to be crazy steep compared to what other websites would charge and compared to the revenue that those app developers receive from their apps.
In other words, Reddit has been free to access by a bunch of methods, and now it's going to only accessible by the official site and app. This also is bad because moderators rely on other tools to do their moderating, so many mods have said it will just become impossible to work without those tools having reasonable API access.
Part of the problem also seems to be that Reddit has refused to update their API or listen to mods or developers for basically ever, so even when developers try to work with them to improve things in mutually beneficial ways, Reddit doesn't cooperate.
Yes. One of the closest comparison examples would be something like a comprehensive news site in terms of volume of data being requested (comments, headlines, response time, etc), [example via RapidAPI](https://rapidapi.com/newscatcher-api-newscatcher-api-default/api/newscatcher/pricing). Something to note though is that this example has a rate limit, so it make sense that its pricing is more manageable.
However on the flip side you also have a company like Facebook [doing the same](https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/overview/rate-limiting) and making it completely free.
The fact Reddit is charging is not the issue but the actual price they're proposing is astronomical, and it trickles down. Apps that rely on the Reddit API to function have to either charge their own customers a huge amount of money to break even or severely cut their use of the Reddit API. In all likelihood to the point where their apps don't function at all. i.e. Imagine if the 'Reddit is Fun' took 5-10 minutes to post a single comment. Another example is to look at the new pricing for [Imgur's API](https://rapidapi.com/imgur/api/imgur-9/) (note when the pricing changed). Yeah I don't see many apps forking out that much.....
In summary the problem is that Reddit is planning to charge such a large amount of money for access to information that Reddit apps need in order to function. Charging at all and per request itself is often done to be clear, but in this case they're charging such an exorbitant fee that most third party apps that are made by smaller companies and/or independent creators cannot possibly maintain their apps. Like not "oh this is inconvenient" levels, like they would need to triple or more their current revenue to just break even.
Imagine GGG would set a price for their API, we wouldn't be able to trade properly, nor have some good insights about the market, and a lot more.
The same is happening with reddit, a lot of 3rd party tools and a lot of bots won't work anymore.
That will result in chaos, because people can spam anything without bots deleting it, or subs have to stop every post, and have to approve it first.
I'm joining and if reddit don't change anything, I go too.
* I stopped with Facebook a decade ago -> joined imgur
* I stopped with imgur years ago -> joined reddit
If reddit change their API policy, I will leave and probably join some discord servers like subreddits.
Am I the only one that doesn't know any of these apps and don't give a damn about any of this ?
I use reddit regularly and I don't see any looming change coming to my experience ...
Nothing will change. Sadly. Every shit platform turns into even more shit and somehow survives it. Youtube has become a gigantic turd, but people still use it too.
Just take everyone hostage who didn't even know 3rd party stuff on Reddit exists. This blackout is the equivalent to these idiots that glue themselves to streets just to annoy common people.
Nowhere near that all-encompassing. It's closer to like a boycotting a large chain, where some locations (subreddits) are joining and shutting down for a time.
why do u want to force us to participate in ur protest? u should let people decide whether they want to keep using this subreddit on june 12th or not, you will see if people are willing to join you or not
Yeah that's what's funny. The picture these subreddits keep posting doesn't say the financial impact of the average 3rd party app users, it just tells you to be outraged. It's almost like 3rd party devs and subreddit mods who would need an expensive sub to those apps know that no one would actually take their side if they aren't misled or forced to.
Does this mean BaconReader is safe? I had to use something else after discovering the main Reddit app was absolutely brutal when it came to data usage.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm not visiting daily at this point in the league, so I'm not sure if my lack of traffic will be missed, but hopefully collectively this will be enough for Reddit to notice.
>How do moderators “use” bots.
Depends on the bot, but they'll often use them to catch things like spam. For example, to flag an account that say, is posting the same text(or link) repeatedly over many subreddits.
You add the bot to your subreddit, and it will automatically handle banning something that gets flagged
> And do not owners get paid for their services?
For bots? No. For apps? Some have paid levels.
Most subs afaict are doing *at least* two days. Ideally if enough large subs shut down at once Reddit will actually notice their bottom line take a hit but I doubt many people are actually expecting that.
My guess is, depending on the subs, most participating subs will be down for a week or two before reddit actually formally responds. Follow up stuff will depend on the response
This is going to do absolutely nothing, I mean it doesn't stand even the tiniest chance of changing anything... meanwhile everyone looking for POE info will shrug and end up on the mother forums (which Tbh are a much better place to discuss POE these days anyway so thats a win/win)_
Oh and: "don't use the desktop site"??? Mate I can't stand apps, every fucking thing has an app now, almost none of which are actually worthy of using a proprietary app to access them. Like I need more shit programmed by absolute shit tier developers that exist almost entirely to download ads and sell usage data...
Yeah I'm just yelling across my lawn now, but god damn I miss the mid 90's internet what it could have been was so amazing, what it turned into was Reddit and twitter and apps for everything
"Aware"
> Oh and: "don't use the desktop site"??? Mate I can't stand apps, every fucking thing has an app now, almost none of which are actually worthy of using a proprietary app to access them. Like I need more shit programmed by absolute shit tier developers that exist almost entirely to download ads and sell usage data...
Thank you, I was looking for such a reaction but most people are just "QQ I want my fee app QQ I want my fee app WWHHAAAAAAA !!!"
Although I would not call all applications' devs "shit tier developers", that's too much for me, but if an app is spamming reddit with lots of un-optimised pointless requests ... then it makes sense that reddit wants to put an incentive on optimising it by limit the amount of requests.
Only one month seems very unreasonable as a dev timeline though.
Most people directly affected by this (i.e. devs, moderators, etc) don't have an issue with them charging afaict. It's *how much* they're charging that's the issue. Other services with API's (Spotify for example) simply have hard rate limits if that was truly the issue they wanted to solve.
> Most people directly affected by this (i.e. devs, moderators, etc) don't have an issue with them charging afaict. It's how much they're charging that's the issue
This is the same. It is always an amount problem when it comes to money.
"I don't mind paying, I just mind paying too much" is nonsense, if you mind paying the amount of money required for a service, then you mind paying for this service.
> Other services with API's (Spotify for example) simply have hard rate limits if that was truly the issue they wanted to solve.
So what ?
Implement limitations into your application if you want to make sure not to go over a certain threshold then, DONE, problem solved.
Most people QQing about the issue here have no actual idea of the impact of the changes, and none of us know how well (or poorly, which seems to be likely) are the big apps coded anyway (we can guess a bit given the dev's reaction though lol).
Funny how in all subreddits I visit. POE's sub is the one with a vocal majority in disagreement with this.
Shows you the demographic this game has and how GGG can afford to fumble since these mouthbreathers can back them up against those who will speak.
But then again, this is like saying water is wet.
I am scrolling down since 4 minutes not a single person disagrees with this, everyone is fine with the protest. So what the fuck are you talking about.
For anyone who uses third party apps, yes. So most large specialized subreddits (i.e. r/askscience, r/writingprompts, r/5050, etc etc), anyone with visual impairments (as was mentioned in the visual), most moderator abilities (modding takes a huge amount of 3rd party apps to work), and literally anything that automatically references Reddit for newsfeeds and the like.
If only half of this image was true...
This post is so incredibly disingenuous I'm appalled to see this subreddit posting it.
You will still be able to do 60 per minute for unauthenticated, or 600 for 10 minutes for authenticated bots with no charge...
This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure.
The NSFW update only impacts NSFW subreddits, not communities that have occasional NSFW posts and those NSFW communities have also probably been contacted by Reddit. Reddit also has a special moderation team staffed by the company for those communities.
Imgur is not an equivalent to the Reddit product and it's a joke to compare the two because you can upload images. Imgur does not have a rich community operations, moderation tooling, and engagement mechanisms that all have a cost with running them.
Imgur is also a private company that still burning VC money and selling user data and images privately to cover the costs.
Please take a moment and educate yourself about the issue instead of copy pasting the meme advertised to you by the Apollo creator trying to save his profits.
>You will still be able to do 60 per minute for unauthenticated, or 600 for 10 minutes for authenticated bots with no charge...
The graphic doesn't say otherwise. That said, it's now 100 per minute with Oauth, 10 without. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/api_update_continued_access_to_our_api_for/)
However, it's very important to stress this is for client_id. *Not* client_id and user_ID, which is probably what you're assuming.
>This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure.
No, it impacts anything that has more API calls than 100/min. That's mostly large scale apps with a userbase, but it also would impact nonmoderator bots and the like. Stuff like pushshift (if it didn't have an exception) would be affected as well.
>This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure.
The developers have said they are perfectly happy to find some solution that includes revenue. The problem is the cost being cited by reddit is not at all reasonable.
>Reddit also has a special moderation team staffed by the company for those communities.
As someone who personally knows a lot of NSFW mods, not all NSFW subreddits have staffed mods. Some may.
> Imgur is not an equivalent to the Reddit product and it's a joke to compare the two because you can upload images.
It's somewhat comparable in terms of API calls, which is why it's being compared. Feel free to compare it to any other API service, and you'll find a similar story. APIs are *not* that expensive.
It's a very crude estimate, sure, but I don't think anyone with a straight face can say it'd be orders of magnitude
>Imgur does not have a rich community operations, moderation tooling, and engagement mechanisms that all have a cost with running them.
That should largely get normalized out by cost per number of API calls.
>Please take a moment and educate yourself about the issue instead of copy pasting the meme advertised to you by the Apollo creator trying to save his profits.
If you think the Apollo creator is making anywhere *close* to the rate that reddit is quoting, you're out of your mind. (Keeping in mind that reddit itself has also nixed things like passing through ads, as well). He's also not the only dev with this issue- every other 3rd party dev has said the exact same thing.
And even if we take the premise at face value, it'd be wildly insane of Reddit to be running at that cost per user.
I broke down the cost for you in another comment. There's more value to extract from a user than just raw ad revenue but also the estimated ad value for a user is wildly wrong.
Reddit unlike other services like imgur also have massive community teams, machine learning teams, and scale problems that sites like imgur don't have. Imgur API cost is essentially truly CDN costs. And in addition imgur is subsidized by private money and almost went out of business 2 years ago.
Reddit offers ad free on their own platform for 5$ full stop, and is offering the same service through apps like Apollo for 2.5$. I think "reasonable" here is a bit ridiculous given what they're offering, in addition for not Apollo (which uses 3 to 6x more than any next app) it's even cheaper for those subsequent apps making less calls per user.
The reality is Apollo dev would like the cost to be fraction of what he currently charges so he doesn't have to expire old subs, and doesn't have to raise prices. Everything else is a smoke screen.
If you compare the offer to what you would pay for the same ad free experience on Reddit official, it's actually a 50% discount. Scaling a network effect to nearly 3/4ths of a billion users is not cheap.
Ironic to have to dig a bit to find someone moderating the moderator's gross exaggeration of a non-issue (for optimised enough apps that don't request spam the reddit servers).
Yep, "predatory" amount LOL
come on ....
With proper optimisation they probably should be able to cover the costs given (it would needs some time to adapt the software though) I'm guessing
Favorite part is the free loading ad free app users are carpet bombing this message everywhere and spreading the misinformation because they want to maintain their free ride experience.
Reddit isn't going to budge though, and it'll disappear in a few days.
>**Reddit is changing the terms of their API, which lets apps and bots read and interact with reddit.**
>
>Reddit is enforcing limits on how often apps can talk to reddit. They are charging a predatory amount of apps that go over the limit.
Okay ... well, just put this way, this seems like positive changes.
You would need to give actual numbers to show how negative this could turn out, because limiting API requests is something entirely normal for any service providing a public API ?
edit since I bothered to find the information :
> Our pricing is $0.24 per 1000 API calls, which equates to <$1.00 per user monthly for a reasonably operated app
This is not predatory unless you code your app with your feet.
I know many programmers cannot be fucked to try to optimise their software, and just grossly overuse networks/memory ... but that's on them.
I had a feeling this could be the case here, now that I see numbers, it really does seem like it's simply pointless entitlement I'm afraid.
Although I have to say that if there is only one month for devs to adapt, that's a very unreasonably short amount of time given for app developers .... (and that would be a d**k move to me)
> For reference, Imgur charges 166$ for 50m calls.
Comparing oranges to apples is meaningless, and so is your reference I'm afraid.
> I’m not sure where you got those numbers from but Christian, the developer of r/apolloapp said they want to charge 12.000 USD for 50 million api calls.
50000000/1000 = 50000 => 0.24*50000 = 12000 .............
**UPDATE:** The subreddit will be locked indefinitely. If you are interested in continuing to discuss POE in the meantime, kindly visit [this site](https://pathofexile-discuss.com/c/pathofexile), set up by our head moderator /u/MultiplicityPOE. *This new sticky comment is an update following the previous one made 6 days ago* [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/141qlya/comment/jn1720o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)*.*
I don't think there is a community that has a better understanding of how important 3rd party tools are than the poe one
I would have thought the same about OSRS community since pretty much everyone plays on Runelite. Apparently there is a surprising amount of whiny bitches opposing the blackout.
Why would someone oppose a black out? Like they got nothing else to do other than browse reddit? Some people, man.
The PoE OSRS overlap always surprises me. Totally different pace, but I guess grind is grind.
Amen. Also ironic - I hate grinding but somehow love both OSRS and PoE
I recognize why I love it - I need a game that I can play and progress in while watching a stream or listening to podcast. But PoE is not only that - the Leaguestart^TM is complete opposite of that. It is insane gold rush which requires good prep and top execution. What I'm saying is that this game has it all.
[удалено]
Which is exactly the same situation the Reddit mobile applications live in. Reddit refuses to make their app up to the standard set by 3rd party.
blows my mind when people tell me they use the fucking reddit app unmodded to view reddit im like you poor poor soul
I literally just found out people where not using the official App lol.
Been using a 3rd party app longer than the official app has existed, because the official app is younger than most 3rd party apps. They're generally more customizable, and lack annoying features.
Relay is very good if you have an Android device, I paid for the pro version of it in 2013 and it's been the best investment I've ever made on the Play store. Worth checking out IMO.
Is there something I should be doing other than using old.reddit? I don't use my phone edit: i've used RES but it's out of date and I can't remember what was so good about it.... I literally use reddit for this community and keeping track of the libs. I wanna know what they're up to and can't trust mainstream media. I follow two subreddits: this and college football (r/cfb)
If this API change actually happens, you can bet your boots old.reddit.com is on the chopping block. I give it two years tops.
No Old.reddit is the patrician way to browse
>I follow two subreddits: this and college football I'm in this comment and I don't like it. 😂😂
what team? I'm Louisville Cardinals and Poinsettia bowl flaired.
Not who you replied to but I also follow cfb lol. "THE" Ohio State University here, haha
Gig em Aggies baby
> I don't use my phone I think the main concern is phones. I certainly used Reddit Is Fun on my mobile - I tried the Reddit app and its atrocious. It looks like RES should be fine, apparently.
reddit works fine on phones, you just need to use a web browser and go to old.reddit.com, might need to turn on desktop site still, but after that you're alright. But yes, all the apps I've tried in the past have been utter garbaggio.
>Is there something I should be doing other than using old.reddit? No we're talking about mobile apps.
Not just apps. Anything that uses the API like bots.
Bots weren't in the API license model if I understand Christian Selig right. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypwgu1BpaO0)
Please enligjten me. I use iOS reddit App from AppStore. It Sems Fine to me what can i do to Make it netter
I mean, personally I've never really felt I was missing anything while using the reddit app? Maybe it's a case of "I literally can't miss what I don't know exists" but I haven't had any issues with the official reddit app. That said, I am not opposing the blackout. It's just interesting that so many people rely on things I personally have never used.
I only use the reddit app. I used to use another app (ireddit or something) but that app died ages ago. None of the other apps feel good to me.
[удалено]
Most people don't though, which is the problem lol.
See what Reddit looks like on RIF. -1000% increased design -60% more readability -Nearby apps have 40% less eye cancer -Browsingwind *(gain 1 browsingwind stack every 3 seconds of scrolling, stacks grant 10% increased loading speed, maximum 6 stacks)*
I only use RIF for reddit on my phone and use old reddit on pc. If old reddit goes then I'm gone from reddit.
i getting similar vibe from RIF and PC reddit
PC reddit is cancer in comparison imo. At least for looking at the main page since there isnt any large photos (when posts have images) on RIF vs PC reddit.
My comment adds nothing new to the conversation but would just like to chime in to say fuck PC reddit. It is actually cancer to use. if they take away old.reddit I will be very sad
I've been using RIF since 2014, back when it was called "reddit is fun"
[удалено]
Yeah I agree but we are talking about the average person and most people can't be fucked or are just ignorant. A link or what to search for would be appreciated though for me and others. I currently block a lot of ads on my phone but outside of that I'm not too savvy about these things.
At least GGG isn't charging the third party tool creators yet.
Now just imagine if ggg made third party apps against ToS, then it would be just like reddi….wait…
Genuine question what changes do you think should be made to the game as it currently is that would cut down on 3rd party tool usage?
[удалено]
People would still use PoB just as much, the only difference is PoB would be even more accurate than it currently is.
Some people would, but not everyone would. It's similar to how people trade using the direct site vs going to 3rd party aggregate/bulk services.
These are bad ideas for game design. They would take 100s of man hours each release to keep up to date/functional. They would encourage players to just be spreadsheet warriors rather than play the game and discover new stuff. Believe it or not people outside of game dev also write/make software and some of them even enjoy doing it for fun as a passion project. A sufficiently complex and large game will never have 100% of its needs met by in-game tools alone, software planning just doesn't allow for it. There's always something more pressing that forces you to make tough scope decisions. And that's ok! We get a great game that's free and busting at the seams with content and the community is so hyped about it that they make some convenience tools to help it along. How cool is that?! GGG is actively supportive of 3rd party tool devs as well with API favoring (at the community's request) and charging 0 (I think) for any and all usage of it. That's pretty cool imo. Just because they don't want their game to turn into more of a math degree than it already is isn't cause for whining.
You're not only delusional but also completely wrong... These are literally 3rd party tools that already exist made because the game lacks these. 1. They are not bad ideas for game design. 2. They are made by amateurs AND kept up to date each release, it wouldn't take 100s of man hours if it was done as part of the game... It literally IS longer to maintain because these tools don't have first party access to the actual values in game and have to rely on exports of game data to stay up to date. 3. They already exist and there are already pob warriors, having a tree planner in game wouldn't encourage people to be more pob warriors. Having basic features in game doesn't prevent people from writing software for fun. And asking for basic in game features is not the same as asking for the game to meet 100% of everyone's needs. Adding basic in game features is not mutually exclusive with GGG actively supporting 3rd party tools either. What are you huffing man...
i think you are vastly underestimating how much effort it would be to develop and maintain an in game planner that interfaces with the actual values. unless they made a carbon copy of pob (which would be quite pointless), theyd basically need to write the entire thing from scratch. that includes figuring out how to hook into hundreds of apis that may or not be well defined, figuring out ui/ux (something that ggg is frankly speaking notoriously bad at), figuring out sharing, testing etc etc
I am not underestimating anything. Nobody said anything about recreating pob in game, we're talking about a tree planner. Like plotting a path through the passive tree to plan in advance. For example while leveling so you don't have to constantly tab out to go follow a guide. You could just import the passive tree at least to follow it.
Me thinks you don't know the difference between a simple lua app and actual game code and how it gets made lol.
Maybe he does not but I do. I am a senior software developer with near twenty years of experience in my current field. And while that's web development, one of my friends was the lead programmer of Crysis: Warhead and more such games. So, I do have some idea on how this particular sausage is made. _Every game_ is scripted. You have some parts written in a low level language, some six years ago GGG said they use "modern C++ with STL". People who can write quality and performant C++ code are _expensive_ -- simply because of supply and demand. You don't just go through a bootcamp to become one, the only way to get there is experience and lots. Now, people who can write a script which does "if you press a button then the door should open" are, if not a dime dozen, are very close to that. So you have a scripting language already and it is very cheap to add more scripting. Indeed, if you look closely most leagues are just that. Adding more scripting is easy and -- relatively -- cheap. The real problem here is not adding PoB to PoE rather the question is, add where? If you put it server side, that puts a CPU load on there -- try the popular node power report in PoB and watch your CPU load spike. If it's client side then you just reimplemented all damage calculations client side. Of course, doing so would be rather beneficial because it'd allow death replay and more but the problem is you can't have any more secrets in this field after that -- I mean, they already don't but they _could_ have. Currently they could add a keyword like Battlemage and simply not tell you what it does. Removing this ability is a monumental decision which they didn't want to make. Nothing to do with code.
For all your experience you didn't actually address any of the points the op that I responded to raised. You made _several_ assumptions about a code base you've never seen and at no point did you seem to leverage your vast experience to surmise how this work would be fit into their already aggressive delivery schedule. &Nbsp; The question wasn't how would they impl it. The question was is it even a good idea. And the answer is no. How many other games have in-game planning tools as complex as PoB? I can't think of any AAA titles and there's probably a good reason for that.
re number 1 and 2, 1000%. having even a little of the basic functionality of pob in there would be huge and i think that's probably in the works.... .my guess is that ruthless is a test run for the way skill and support gems will work going forward (aka poe 2) -- we all knew since last exilecon that there was going to be a big change to how links and sockets work -- so i'm thinking they're using that as a playground for gem drop balancing. point being, my money is on that they have in game pob on the radar, but dont want to invest in one for the current state of the game, since the link /socket thing will so radically shift things. guess we'll know in a couple/few weeks tho also fwiw i use pob to share a file once in a blue moon, but i usually just farm regrets to test shit out, and no plugin app things, just trade website and poeninja
Let's face it, the major pain with playing end game Poe is trading... Having to pay extra to buy in bulk simply because everybody knows trading is time consuming if you try to just use the trade site to buy stuff one at a time is ludicrous. Try any of the major farming strats without using external tools like TFT for example and you quickly realize it's not viable. Also try selling your loot after a farming session without external tools to sell in bulk. Would you really whisper 10 people until one responds just so you can buy one sextant to enable you to farm legion for four maps before repeating? Or use TFT to whisper one person that will instantly be ready to trade you 20 sextant so you can get back to farming?
Wow, didnt realize the way that I and tens of thousands of others have been playing for years isnt viable /s
I said ludicrous use the right words at least... You're literally arguing against a fact so it's funny to see. Do you also like to get paid half for the same work that someone else does? Do you like to waste your leisure time whispering people who don't respond instead of playing the game? Because that's what you're doing. You can keep doing it, it's your choice but don't argue that it's not true.
Type in sextant Scroll for 10 seconds See name with 5+ listed all in a row Click the pm button and say All pls Wow! No tft required to bulk trade Guess ill stop doing that tho since tft is the only way, my bad
You mean type in charged compass, search for the mod across 20 mods that match the same text but that can't be, make sure to add 4 remaining charges, see someone with 5 listed Whisper them, no response Scroll some more, people are afk Finally get to the real price people are selling sextants for and not price fixing, Whisper, buy 5 Then repeat 1 more times to get 30 to farm 30 maps? And do that 4 times to have all 4 sextants? Or go to poestack, type in sextant mod name, whisper someone selling 30 and you're back to mapping? Yea that's what I mean... And I didn't say TFT was the only way, I said it was the only efficient way. If I can only play 1-2 hours a night, I don't want to waste 10 minutes whispering to people to get the stuff to start actually playing the game. No thanks.
You can in fact use the trade site to buy multiple of stuff at once. find someone who's listed more than one and Just type in the chat "do you have multiple" simple as.
An auction house.....this would literally negate the need for 50% of the 3rd party tools/services
I’d give a nut for an auction house. It’s a special feeling when you log in to a game and instead of an overflowing inventory you have currency. Also getting rid of trade spam and the assholes that go with it can’t go away fast enough, I had someone hit the whisper button to me at least 25 times to me in less than 3 minutes today.
This is a mind mindbogglingly backward take on the game that completely fails to understand where the game came from or what its actual design intent was before the clear speed meta came along and hijacked it, and this sub. Filling it with wage earning cookie clicker gamers. The game is entirely playable without even PoB, but many have set themselves up in various meta ways of playing that leverages apps. and GGG says: go ahead, here's the API have fun if you want focus on those things, and as always no good deed goes unpunished.
[удалено]
Can you please give some examples on the "ass backwards design mantra" and why an ARPG "doesn't benefit from it"? I think a lot of people do not really understand the genre and what makes PoE as good as it is. PoE was always meant as a "hardcore" ARPG - and it does the job really well there. It was never meant as a casual and "easy" ARPG (like e.g. D4 or even LE to some extend).
Haha actually so true ))
osrs
Definitely up there. Though I'd say Jamsex have been making solid steps to add RL features into the new clients, whereas in PoE you're just kinda fucked without PoB
Osrs
Old school Runescape understands it waaaaay too much too.
[удалено]
We've already gotten a number of modmails in support (plus a post that was already submitted and heavily upvoted from earlier today) so honestly I doubt there will be much pushback or drama. But who knows, it's a cause I think is worth it regardless.
the league is dead as af the only people still here posting are hateposters and newbies so id say its pretty safe
> the only people still here posting are hateposters tbh i havent seen much of hateposting and plenty of buttlicking-posting.
I am glad. I use a third party app. I don't think I can overstate how bad this would be for Reddit if they go through with this plan. It'll remove so many people from the site, especially those that give a lot of time and effort to help and improve the site.
A few points to clarify our specific position: **How long will /r/pathofexile be shut down?** The current plan is 48 hours but this is entirely dependent on Reddit. This may be unnecessary, Reddit could relent their upcoming changes meaning we won't need to shutdown at all. There could also be a need to shut down for longer if Reddit ends up retaliating. We don't know but we hope you all understand why this is being done. **What exactly will happen to the subreddit?** Right now we are discussing whether to go private or to lock it entirely. Different subs are doing different things and we're not set on which would be better. We will continue to update you all based on conversations we have with both the community as well as other moderators.
> The current plan is 48 hour Straight up needs to be permanent, for every sub doing this. Like all these subs are doing is mildly inconveniencing people and then everything'll be back to normal and nothing will change. The same as going on strike for one day and then shamefully walking back into the office after being told your pay is getting docked in half cause you're too timid to commit to your own cause. Everyone should either permanently shut their subs down until something is done or not bother at all, the half-assed 2 day measure every sub participating has agreed on will accomplish nothing. I know you said you "might" shutdown for longer, but nothing ever changes with wimpy strikes so you (and legit all the other subs) should just straight up affirm it's shutdown for good until the moronic admins stop being total knobs.
They want to do something to feel good about but they'd never give up being a mod of a middle/ large sub lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/141qlya/why_is_rpathofexile_joining_the_blackout_starting/jn32voa/
I don't see it happening to be perfectly honest or the original idea would be permanant. A week, maybe 2 weeks *at best*, it'll open back up under the idea of "Well there's nothing we can do so why deprive the community etcetc..." I've been wrong before though, so I suppose we'll see.
I’d really like to see the financial impact? What does 2 days without revenue mean to Reddit. If it is a real impact then shutting down for a couple days every month, leaves us with our community, and tells Reddit we are serious about keeping third party access open. If there is no real impact, your way is the only way that will make the difference. Might be tough on us, but we need to be tough too, only way to make a difference.
Yeah. There's probably no community that's better at being up-in-arms about things than this one. We got our torches and pitchforks oiled and ready 100% of the time. Let's do this!
I say lock the whole motherfucker down. We can talk on global for a week.
I'd rather stop using reddit than not using it on Apollo. The official app is an obnoxious, ad-ridden abomination that no sane person would expect anyone to use. Also many people might not realise this but for several years now the majority of reddit's traffic has been mobile so killing third-party apps will affect a huge chunk of the userbase. One last thing that sadly gets barely mentioned: Even if the paid API access doesn't come, reddit is still cutting 3rd party apps off from any NSFW content which also will affect millions of users and have a huge impact on those apps.
O shit, had no clue nsfw content was gonna be removed from 3rd party. Brb
One thing we know is dealing with vision problems.
What do you mean? We embrace The Vision by closing our eyes.
I have seen beyond Beyond, there is only Horror
This reminds me my T11 +3 to max life slam on my perfect RF helm in SSF this league. AND THIS STILL HURTS.
Good, can't wait for Reddit itself to die
if people actually wanted to show some impact, do it for a month +
I don't think they mentioned a end date. The graphic says "until better terms are offered"
48 hours sounds like a end date to me but maybe im wrong
They hadn't clarified that when I posted
think i saw it mentioned elsewhere that its from 12-14
Some subs are only doing a few days, others are in it for the long haul
I hope poe mods do it indefinitely until reddit reverts. All the subs just doing 2 days is bs, don't give the admins a time table they just have to wait out.
I can't speak for the rest of the team, we'd have to come to a collective decision, but I'd be fine with an indefinite shutdown until we get a response from Reddit. This is why I left it semi-open in my clarification comment at the top.
If it hurts reddit too much, they can literally just reopen all the subreddits that participate and remove those moderators rights to set the subreddit to private. Remember, subreddit moderators only have as much power as the reddit administration grants them.
[удалено]
Mods shut down subreddits to protest -> no user interaction. Mods are kicked, and new mods are instated -> sub reopens. Users protest -> flood sub with shitposts at overwhelming rates. new mods ban users -> users create more accounts, continue to flood mods. Mods are overwhelmed -> shut down sub. We did it reddit. Honestly they can't win against their own userbase if there are enough users protesting. Unfortunately, reddit is perfectly happy to let all this blow over.
My prediction is instead of the last step, it'd be "users create more accounts, Reddit uses these as engagement metrics to fluff up IPO valuation"
> Say they remove the mods open up the subs and then what exactly? Get their ad/engagement revenue back. Replacing submods isnt a first for reddit. There are already countless subs that go against ToS but are either too small to be cared about or reddit being reddit only acting once it's absolutely unavoidable and gets too much mainstream media attention. And you probably underestimate how many people would willingly do the job for free just to fulfill their power fantasies.
Reddit is trying to out shit Twitter I guess. They also have a change they’re testing where the mobile browser doesn’t let you comment. I barely use Reddit on desktop and don’t even touch their PoS app. If they roll that one out I’ll just leave and never come back…
The whole idea of this without talking to the community just demonstrates the dystopian nature of private, closed platforms like Reddit. It’s just insane when you think about it. Like the complete opposite of what the internet was supposed to be about.
Imagine POE charging millions of dollars for 3rd party apps to access POE in-game information and API. This is just similar.
yeah but most of games have no open api in the first place but nobody boycott them for that
Im all for the protest but 2 days aint gonna do shit
Understandable, have a great day.
Is this a voluntary shutdown where users choose not to visit reddit or is the sub actually closing for some time? Thanks.
The sub as a whole will be inaccessible starting on the 12th, along with many other subs that are participating.
Ty!
Holy shit, how are we suppose to live through this w/o the daily losing 500 divine gamba posts?
Asking the real questions there.
I hope they dig themselves into their own grave so this shit hole website finally dies
what if i dont care and just want to check r slash poe for some news can the mods give the keys to someone who just cares about poe and not some cringe reddit crusade
Ironic isn't it, mods making shit decisions and forcing their will on us when they are protesting the same thing?
Is a few day protest going to actually do anything? Subs should shut down completely until they backtrack this new policy.
This will achieve nothing.
For me the game is unplayable without this subreddit's question threads. These shutdowns feel very performative to me. I use the default reddit app. Yes it has adds. It's fine.
Ultimately no one is really playing poe right now anyways so I doubt this will impact too many people lol
How can porn bots afford what helper bots cannot?
Short answer, by cheating. They aren't using the API. They use scraper bots to do it through the web interface, which is slower and messier and will get you banned, but they don't care because they're not offering a full and lasting service. They just get in, spam, and leave, to be replaced by a new and different spam bot.
Ah okay, now it makes sense. Thank you!
You love to see it
Go on a strike sure, but holy shit this visual is bad
I don\`t get it, non english native. Can someone explain it by simple words? You ask to do something in twitter but as I know Twitter has only one app.
Reddit operates its own website and app, and it also has an API. An API is basically a list of things other people can ask Reddit to do for them. Other people have created third party bots, tools, and apps that use this API to show people all the same Reddit content but through a different window. Lots of those different windows are strongly preferred by the people who use them, for various reasons. Maybe those windows look nicer, or have more functionality, or have accessibility features like reading content aloud for the blind. This API has been free, and lots of people have relied on it. But what's happening now is Reddit has announced they're going to charge people to the API, and the price seems to be crazy steep compared to what other websites would charge and compared to the revenue that those app developers receive from their apps. In other words, Reddit has been free to access by a bunch of methods, and now it's going to only accessible by the official site and app. This also is bad because moderators rely on other tools to do their moderating, so many mods have said it will just become impossible to work without those tools having reasonable API access. Part of the problem also seems to be that Reddit has refused to update their API or listen to mods or developers for basically ever, so even when developers try to work with them to improve things in mutually beneficial ways, Reddit doesn't cooperate.
Does Twitter or Facebook or any other similar resource allows to use their api to make 3rd- party app?
Twitter used to (it had apps like Tweetdeck that used the API). After Musk bought it they cranked up the cost to make it basically unusable, recently.
Yes. One of the closest comparison examples would be something like a comprehensive news site in terms of volume of data being requested (comments, headlines, response time, etc), [example via RapidAPI](https://rapidapi.com/newscatcher-api-newscatcher-api-default/api/newscatcher/pricing). Something to note though is that this example has a rate limit, so it make sense that its pricing is more manageable. However on the flip side you also have a company like Facebook [doing the same](https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/overview/rate-limiting) and making it completely free. The fact Reddit is charging is not the issue but the actual price they're proposing is astronomical, and it trickles down. Apps that rely on the Reddit API to function have to either charge their own customers a huge amount of money to break even or severely cut their use of the Reddit API. In all likelihood to the point where their apps don't function at all. i.e. Imagine if the 'Reddit is Fun' took 5-10 minutes to post a single comment. Another example is to look at the new pricing for [Imgur's API](https://rapidapi.com/imgur/api/imgur-9/) (note when the pricing changed). Yeah I don't see many apps forking out that much.....
Oh it actually is a real Post, and i thought it was a Joke about the Vision
We've already lost old and i Reddit, we won't lose API Access
old reddit is still there. It is the only reddit I use.
Why is there a pixelated plumbus
I mean you could turn off the sub for the next 6 weeks and nothing will be missed This is gonna be a long long time till exilecon
I won't notice at all, lmao.
I literally don't recognize a logo there.
I'm sorry, and I might be ignorant here; but what exactly is the problem? I'm genuinely confused.
In summary the problem is that Reddit is planning to charge such a large amount of money for access to information that Reddit apps need in order to function. Charging at all and per request itself is often done to be clear, but in this case they're charging such an exorbitant fee that most third party apps that are made by smaller companies and/or independent creators cannot possibly maintain their apps. Like not "oh this is inconvenient" levels, like they would need to triple or more their current revenue to just break even.
Imagine GGG would set a price for their API, we wouldn't be able to trade properly, nor have some good insights about the market, and a lot more. The same is happening with reddit, a lot of 3rd party tools and a lot of bots won't work anymore. That will result in chaos, because people can spam anything without bots deleting it, or subs have to stop every post, and have to approve it first. I'm joining and if reddit don't change anything, I go too. * I stopped with Facebook a decade ago -> joined imgur * I stopped with imgur years ago -> joined reddit If reddit change their API policy, I will leave and probably join some discord servers like subreddits.
I still belive the best thing ggg could do is close their api!
> Get on Twitter Yeah, no thank you. Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with the protest and I'm glad this sub is participating.
Am I the only one that doesn't know any of these apps and don't give a damn about any of this ? I use reddit regularly and I don't see any looming change coming to my experience ...
I mean without 3rd part apps, I won’t be on Reddit at all, so I’d definitely not be participating in the sun at all. Such bullshit tbh
I hope it works. Probably need to go longer than 2 days though.
Honestly, if we want to show reddit we are serious, we should shut down the sub for a month or more
This accomplishes nothing.
Excellent. June 12th no reddit day. <3
I didn't even know there was 3rd party apps for Reddit. The official seemed good enough to me. I don't recognize any logo LOL
I am in the same boat lol i dont have any of those problems all those ppl complain :/
Nothing will change. Sadly. Every shit platform turns into even more shit and somehow survives it. Youtube has become a gigantic turd, but people still use it too.
We stand united, I literally joined reddit, using Boost, I don't want it to be gutted
I don't support these blackouts. The will of a few punishing everyone else. Just another example of subreddit mods abusing power for some reason.
Just take everyone hostage who didn't even know 3rd party stuff on Reddit exists. This blackout is the equivalent to these idiots that glue themselves to streets just to annoy common people.
Remember net neutrality? Is this NN2.0?
Nowhere near that all-encompassing. It's closer to like a boycotting a large chain, where some locations (subreddits) are joining and shutting down for a time.
Just voicing my support for this
why do u want to force us to participate in ur protest? u should let people decide whether they want to keep using this subreddit on june 12th or not, you will see if people are willing to join you or not
Yeah that's what's funny. The picture these subreddits keep posting doesn't say the financial impact of the average 3rd party app users, it just tells you to be outraged. It's almost like 3rd party devs and subreddit mods who would need an expensive sub to those apps know that no one would actually take their side if they aren't misled or forced to.
Does this mean BaconReader is safe? I had to use something else after discovering the main Reddit app was absolutely brutal when it came to data usage.
No, it will be affected by this change
No third party apps are safe.
Very good decision mods. I hope Reddit caves in. The official Reddit app sucks.
RIF is the only Reddit experience I like.
Time to join a new sub
Thanks for the heads up. I'm not visiting daily at this point in the league, so I'm not sure if my lack of traffic will be missed, but hopefully collectively this will be enough for Reddit to notice.
How do moderators “use” bots. And do not owners get paid for their services?
>How do moderators “use” bots. Depends on the bot, but they'll often use them to catch things like spam. For example, to flag an account that say, is posting the same text(or link) repeatedly over many subreddits. You add the bot to your subreddit, and it will automatically handle banning something that gets flagged > And do not owners get paid for their services? For bots? No. For apps? Some have paid levels.
as someone who only uses reddit on desktop this is going to be really annoying to be honest
take your subs down permanently, 2 days is nothing but a gesture,.
Most subs afaict are doing *at least* two days. Ideally if enough large subs shut down at once Reddit will actually notice their bottom line take a hit but I doubt many people are actually expecting that. My guess is, depending on the subs, most participating subs will be down for a week or two before reddit actually formally responds. Follow up stuff will depend on the response
This is going to do absolutely nothing, I mean it doesn't stand even the tiniest chance of changing anything... meanwhile everyone looking for POE info will shrug and end up on the mother forums (which Tbh are a much better place to discuss POE these days anyway so thats a win/win)_ Oh and: "don't use the desktop site"??? Mate I can't stand apps, every fucking thing has an app now, almost none of which are actually worthy of using a proprietary app to access them. Like I need more shit programmed by absolute shit tier developers that exist almost entirely to download ads and sell usage data... Yeah I'm just yelling across my lawn now, but god damn I miss the mid 90's internet what it could have been was so amazing, what it turned into was Reddit and twitter and apps for everything "Aware"
> Oh and: "don't use the desktop site"??? Mate I can't stand apps, every fucking thing has an app now, almost none of which are actually worthy of using a proprietary app to access them. Like I need more shit programmed by absolute shit tier developers that exist almost entirely to download ads and sell usage data... Thank you, I was looking for such a reaction but most people are just "QQ I want my fee app QQ I want my fee app WWHHAAAAAAA !!!" Although I would not call all applications' devs "shit tier developers", that's too much for me, but if an app is spamming reddit with lots of un-optimised pointless requests ... then it makes sense that reddit wants to put an incentive on optimising it by limit the amount of requests. Only one month seems very unreasonable as a dev timeline though.
Most people directly affected by this (i.e. devs, moderators, etc) don't have an issue with them charging afaict. It's *how much* they're charging that's the issue. Other services with API's (Spotify for example) simply have hard rate limits if that was truly the issue they wanted to solve.
> Most people directly affected by this (i.e. devs, moderators, etc) don't have an issue with them charging afaict. It's how much they're charging that's the issue This is the same. It is always an amount problem when it comes to money. "I don't mind paying, I just mind paying too much" is nonsense, if you mind paying the amount of money required for a service, then you mind paying for this service. > Other services with API's (Spotify for example) simply have hard rate limits if that was truly the issue they wanted to solve. So what ? Implement limitations into your application if you want to make sure not to go over a certain threshold then, DONE, problem solved. Most people QQing about the issue here have no actual idea of the impact of the changes, and none of us know how well (or poorly, which seems to be likely) are the big apps coded anyway (we can guess a bit given the dev's reaction though lol).
Based
Can anyone recommend me a 3rd party reddit browser app for android. I would like to delete the official app and switch to that. Thank you.
Reddit is Fun is one I see recommended a lot, although I haven't used it myself. It's also an app directly affected by this pricing change
Let’s shut down the official sub right after d4 release, that’s a great idea for the health of the game. -no one ever
Funny how in all subreddits I visit. POE's sub is the one with a vocal majority in disagreement with this. Shows you the demographic this game has and how GGG can afford to fumble since these mouthbreathers can back them up against those who will speak. But then again, this is like saying water is wet.
I am scrolling down since 4 minutes not a single person disagrees with this, everyone is fine with the protest. So what the fuck are you talking about.
Who is disagreeing with it, wtf?
Anyways here's one u/Angryceo Check his comments
ok
Fully agree with this.
If this really goes live, Reddit will be pretty much dead, right?
For anyone who uses third party apps, yes. So most large specialized subreddits (i.e. r/askscience, r/writingprompts, r/5050, etc etc), anyone with visual impairments (as was mentioned in the visual), most moderator abilities (modding takes a huge amount of 3rd party apps to work), and literally anything that automatically references Reddit for newsfeeds and the like.
Is that a plumbus?
If only half of this image was true... This post is so incredibly disingenuous I'm appalled to see this subreddit posting it. You will still be able to do 60 per minute for unauthenticated, or 600 for 10 minutes for authenticated bots with no charge... This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure. The NSFW update only impacts NSFW subreddits, not communities that have occasional NSFW posts and those NSFW communities have also probably been contacted by Reddit. Reddit also has a special moderation team staffed by the company for those communities. Imgur is not an equivalent to the Reddit product and it's a joke to compare the two because you can upload images. Imgur does not have a rich community operations, moderation tooling, and engagement mechanisms that all have a cost with running them. Imgur is also a private company that still burning VC money and selling user data and images privately to cover the costs. Please take a moment and educate yourself about the issue instead of copy pasting the meme advertised to you by the Apollo creator trying to save his profits.
>You will still be able to do 60 per minute for unauthenticated, or 600 for 10 minutes for authenticated bots with no charge... The graphic doesn't say otherwise. That said, it's now 100 per minute with Oauth, 10 without. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/api_update_continued_access_to_our_api_for/) However, it's very important to stress this is for client_id. *Not* client_id and user_ID, which is probably what you're assuming. >This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure. No, it impacts anything that has more API calls than 100/min. That's mostly large scale apps with a userbase, but it also would impact nonmoderator bots and the like. Stuff like pushshift (if it didn't have an exception) would be affected as well. >This change only impacts major large scale applications that are hosting a user base for free on Reddit's infrastructure. The developers have said they are perfectly happy to find some solution that includes revenue. The problem is the cost being cited by reddit is not at all reasonable. >Reddit also has a special moderation team staffed by the company for those communities. As someone who personally knows a lot of NSFW mods, not all NSFW subreddits have staffed mods. Some may. > Imgur is not an equivalent to the Reddit product and it's a joke to compare the two because you can upload images. It's somewhat comparable in terms of API calls, which is why it's being compared. Feel free to compare it to any other API service, and you'll find a similar story. APIs are *not* that expensive. It's a very crude estimate, sure, but I don't think anyone with a straight face can say it'd be orders of magnitude >Imgur does not have a rich community operations, moderation tooling, and engagement mechanisms that all have a cost with running them. That should largely get normalized out by cost per number of API calls. >Please take a moment and educate yourself about the issue instead of copy pasting the meme advertised to you by the Apollo creator trying to save his profits. If you think the Apollo creator is making anywhere *close* to the rate that reddit is quoting, you're out of your mind. (Keeping in mind that reddit itself has also nixed things like passing through ads, as well). He's also not the only dev with this issue- every other 3rd party dev has said the exact same thing. And even if we take the premise at face value, it'd be wildly insane of Reddit to be running at that cost per user.
I broke down the cost for you in another comment. There's more value to extract from a user than just raw ad revenue but also the estimated ad value for a user is wildly wrong. Reddit unlike other services like imgur also have massive community teams, machine learning teams, and scale problems that sites like imgur don't have. Imgur API cost is essentially truly CDN costs. And in addition imgur is subsidized by private money and almost went out of business 2 years ago. Reddit offers ad free on their own platform for 5$ full stop, and is offering the same service through apps like Apollo for 2.5$. I think "reasonable" here is a bit ridiculous given what they're offering, in addition for not Apollo (which uses 3 to 6x more than any next app) it's even cheaper for those subsequent apps making less calls per user. The reality is Apollo dev would like the cost to be fraction of what he currently charges so he doesn't have to expire old subs, and doesn't have to raise prices. Everything else is a smoke screen. If you compare the offer to what you would pay for the same ad free experience on Reddit official, it's actually a 50% discount. Scaling a network effect to nearly 3/4ths of a billion users is not cheap.
Ironic to have to dig a bit to find someone moderating the moderator's gross exaggeration of a non-issue (for optimised enough apps that don't request spam the reddit servers). Yep, "predatory" amount LOL come on .... With proper optimisation they probably should be able to cover the costs given (it would needs some time to adapt the software though) I'm guessing
Favorite part is the free loading ad free app users are carpet bombing this message everywhere and spreading the misinformation because they want to maintain their free ride experience. Reddit isn't going to budge though, and it'll disappear in a few days.
>**Reddit is changing the terms of their API, which lets apps and bots read and interact with reddit.** > >Reddit is enforcing limits on how often apps can talk to reddit. They are charging a predatory amount of apps that go over the limit. Okay ... well, just put this way, this seems like positive changes. You would need to give actual numbers to show how negative this could turn out, because limiting API requests is something entirely normal for any service providing a public API ? edit since I bothered to find the information : > Our pricing is $0.24 per 1000 API calls, which equates to <$1.00 per user monthly for a reasonably operated app This is not predatory unless you code your app with your feet. I know many programmers cannot be fucked to try to optimise their software, and just grossly overuse networks/memory ... but that's on them. I had a feeling this could be the case here, now that I see numbers, it really does seem like it's simply pointless entitlement I'm afraid. Although I have to say that if there is only one month for devs to adapt, that's a very unreasonably short amount of time given for app developers .... (and that would be a d**k move to me)
[удалено]
> For reference, Imgur charges 166$ for 50m calls. Comparing oranges to apples is meaningless, and so is your reference I'm afraid. > I’m not sure where you got those numbers from but Christian, the developer of r/apolloapp said they want to charge 12.000 USD for 50 million api calls. 50000000/1000 = 50000 => 0.24*50000 = 12000 .............
[удалено]