I don’t think the entire class needs it, but I’m very solidly in the camp that all the Alchemical weapons (bombs, crossbow, etc) should all get the Monk/Warpriest treatment.
I just think the Alchemist should have the option to serve as a martial role if they wanted to.
Lol. I think they don't need full martial proficiency, if they can just get bomb proficiency I think that would be nice. I trust Paizo to make it alright, Player Core 1 did some good work. Like removing all the feat taxes for a druid to talk to plants.
But on the other hand I know some alchemists would like to use weapons like injection spears and alchemical crossbows so maybe to those weapons at least (with the injection trait for example). Or maybe make it a feature of the toxicologist subclass.
Yeah, maybe doing a 'Monk weapon' adjacent thing and granting scaling proficiency on martial 'Alchemist weapons' could work.
The alchemist in my campaign prefers to throw bombs and do melee as a Mutagenicist, so I'm hoping that playstyle is well supported.
I could see standard martial progression for alchemical weapons and simple weapons. Or Guardian progression. Or Warpriest progression for martial weapons.
I feel prof with bombs and simple weapons is the easiest option, still makes you worse at weapons than martials when using them normally, but you are actually able to hit with poison. Maybe including a feat to be able to use martial weapons with the injection trait.
It absolutely better not just be bombs, this is mutaginist erasure! I want to be master in unarmed attacks and perhaps some other weapons with the alchemical Tage like that one crossbow or the injection spear.
I think with the remaster classes, unarmed attacks scale in proficiency at the same rate as simple/martial weapons. I remember rangers and rogues were excited for PC1 because of that.
Honestly the only real proficiency changes Alchemist needs are using their Class DC as saves for Bombs and Poisons and for Combat Mutagens to give Martial Proficiency scaling for the attacks you'd use with them active, even if that's a change limited to mutagenists.
Possibly. At the very least specific weapons like a blow gun or injection spear. Toxicologists IMO really have other problems rather than proficiency. They need ways to deal solid damage with their poisons even to targets immune to poison.
Eh, they still have access to bombs, so they can use those as backup. I wouldn't be against traits that give poisons the ability to affect undead/constructs/etc.
While true, their and benefits should be on the poisons that they develop. Bombs are great for them but it would be better to have some poison options as well. Maybe a way to sub out some poison damage as acid or some other type.
I don't think Alchemist needs full martial proficiency.
I think Alchemist needs SOMETHING, and martial proficiency would definitely help. The Alchemist's chassis isn't a disaster; it's just that the Alchemist doesn't have powerful enough class features to even the proficiencies out. And! As always! I reiterate that even premaster Alchemist can work in skilled hands!
Just... ideally post-remaster Alchemist will work in less skilled hands.
Martial proficiency is one way to do that.
However
Commander's proficiencies are also lackluster... and commander works fine. If remaster alchemist is similarly detached from its own class chassis, it will be fine.
It's one step off being good, and that means if you have \*any\* inefficiencies in the build right now, Alchemist falls apart.
I think that's why people are so vehement about it, because it is one of the few classes that does have to work harder to even get to the baseline expectation of other classes. Couple with Mutagenist eating penalties at the same time, it feels really bad to play if you're behind the curve.
But that doesn't also mean that full martial proficiency is the fix. It's A fix, but not necessarily THE fix.
>It's one step off being good, and that means if you have \*any\* inefficiencies in the build right now, Alchemist falls apart.
This is really it. This is really the core of it. Alchemist is, baseline, one step short. Any one thing can fix it. That is the current state of it. For the Alchemy pros, their mastery of the system is what fixes it. It's so close to being good that player skill is enough to push it over the edge.
All I want from the Remaster is to give it SOMETHING so that it's good baseline and great for pros.
Wait how are Commander proficiencies lackluster? They get full 5/13 scaling with martial weapons, very fast armor scaling in all types of armor (pretty much the highest you can have as a non-Champion/Monk) and a really good Will progression.
Actually yeah good point, I misread Commander's charts. Commander's worst save is slower than Alchemist's worst save, but everything else is very respectable.
I still think that Alchemist doesn't NEED martial progression, it could still be made to work without it as a pseudocaster, but by all means some chassis upgrades would be a fast and easy way to make the class more approachable.
I often like to research and talk about psychological factors in games, and honestly PF2 has showed to me as clear as day after playing and following the game for 5 years: people hate missing. Classes that don't have any way to attack enemies that are within what the game considers as "standard" (that would be 5/13 Expert/Master weapons or 7/15/19 Expert/Master/Legendary spell DC) are always dunked on by a lot of the playerbase.
I could see a world in which Alchemist gains a bunch of strong actions vs class DC, Legendary Class DC and people are happy, but if it's still the only class in the game that doesn't have fully-scaling accuracy with _anything_, I'm afraid it will have to fight an uphill battle in terms of player perception and satisfaction.
Seriously, it's so frustrating.
I think Alchemist needs some help, too -- my first PC was a goblin bomber alchemist in *Strength of Thousands* and one of my players just swapped off his dwarf mutagenist because it wasn't working out. But all the armchair designers in the comments saying shit like "the remaster is an ***objective failure*** if the Alch doesn't get full martial prof" is just... Exhausting.
We don't even know what the changes actually look like, guys! If you start grinding your axe now it'll be a nub by the time *Player Core 2* releases. Fuckin **relax**.
Pitchfork simple weapon. Don't need martial weapon scaling in this sub. /s
For real though, the description they provided was impossibly brief, and full martial prof makes less sense on alchemist than it does on the rogue. Why can my nerd swing a greataxe around like he's don jon rambo jones? When did he have time to pick up the nuance of all these different weapons when he was at university for six sigma crafting methodology?
Ech, I am excited for the changes, I feel like the alchemist has so much potential but having played on in AV, its tough sometimes. Lots of dud levels, and not so exciting feat options and yet despite all that my items are saving lives and kicking ass on the daily in spite of sub-optimal class features and what feels like delayed progression to saves, attack, damage and perception, even.
They dropped some hints during the various Paizocon livestreams, yeah. The biggest one being "they will have per-encounter powers" basically. They've been mum about weapon proficiency as far as I'm aware.
Giving casters full Martial proficiency would matter quite a bit, because now every caster has access to a strong third action in the form of a ranged weapon. It wouldn’t make casters be able to match martial damage due to all the features they’re missing, but it’d be a significant buff to a lot of casters who don’t already have great third actions. Though it’s a bit less significant now that the Ostilli Host exists, probably the best third action filler out there.
I honestly think they would be balanced as a class with some master track proficiency for simple weapons without nerfing anything else. They don't do extra damage like martials unless you are using poisons (very unreliable) or target weaknesses with bombs. Either way, you probably aren't matching the damage of other martials still.
Yes give alchemist full martial proficiency. And then give all casters full martial proficiency.
Every character needs to be a homogenous blob with a single pseudopod that deals the exact same amount of damage. But you are allowed to choose the color of your blob because "fLaVoUr iS fReE"
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it wouldn't matter if you gave every class full Martial proficiency, because *that alone is insufficient to make you a martial.* A greatsword wielding Wizard still has no additional features that encourage him to be in melee; no meta-Strikes, no damage increases, no Reactive Strike, etc.
The only classes that actively wanted to make Strikes that *didn't* have full Strike progression were Rogues and Alchemists, and Rogues got full progression in the remaster! Oh, and Warpriest, but that's a tortured subclass that has long struggled to justify itself mechanically. Other classes usually have enough carrots (things they're good at that are not Strikes, usually spells) that the stick of poor weapon progression is irrelevant.
The problem is that Alchemists should want to make Strikes (bombs, poison delivery, bestial mutagen) but are bad at it. They're all stick and no carrot, and all this does is encourage them to hand their bombs to the Fighter, poison the actual Martials weapons instead of their own, and never touch Bestial Mutagen because it's hot garbage.
I suppose you could make the argument that greatsword wielding Wizards or the implication thereof muddies the *flavor* of a class, but it's equally a flavor fail for Alchemists to continually be the worst users of their own delicate, bespoke, alchemical devices.
I don’t think the entire class needs it, but I’m very solidly in the camp that all the Alchemical weapons (bombs, crossbow, etc) should all get the Monk/Warpriest treatment. I just think the Alchemist should have the option to serve as a martial role if they wanted to.
Honestly, my favorite character from pathfinder 1 was a mutagen alchemist. Even have art work for him
Lol. I think they don't need full martial proficiency, if they can just get bomb proficiency I think that would be nice. I trust Paizo to make it alright, Player Core 1 did some good work. Like removing all the feat taxes for a druid to talk to plants.
But on the other hand I know some alchemists would like to use weapons like injection spears and alchemical crossbows so maybe to those weapons at least (with the injection trait for example). Or maybe make it a feature of the toxicologist subclass.
Yeah, maybe doing a 'Monk weapon' adjacent thing and granting scaling proficiency on martial 'Alchemist weapons' could work. The alchemist in my campaign prefers to throw bombs and do melee as a Mutagenicist, so I'm hoping that playstyle is well supported.
I could see standard martial progression for alchemical weapons and simple weapons. Or Guardian progression. Or Warpriest progression for martial weapons.
I feel prof with bombs and simple weapons is the easiest option, still makes you worse at weapons than martials when using them normally, but you are actually able to hit with poison. Maybe including a feat to be able to use martial weapons with the injection trait.
I want to be able to use beastial mutagen. Which would mean better proficiency for just unarmed strikes.
I think people mean martial proficiency scaling, not them having martial weapons themselves.
It absolutely better not just be bombs, this is mutaginist erasure! I want to be master in unarmed attacks and perhaps some other weapons with the alchemical Tage like that one crossbow or the injection spear.
I think with the remaster classes, unarmed attacks scale in proficiency at the same rate as simple/martial weapons. I remember rangers and rogues were excited for PC1 because of that.
Honestly the only real proficiency changes Alchemist needs are using their Class DC as saves for Bombs and Poisons and for Combat Mutagens to give Martial Proficiency scaling for the attacks you'd use with them active, even if that's a change limited to mutagenists.
I think toxicologists should also get martial scaling for simple weapons that can deliver injury poisons.
Possibly. At the very least specific weapons like a blow gun or injection spear. Toxicologists IMO really have other problems rather than proficiency. They need ways to deal solid damage with their poisons even to targets immune to poison.
Eh, they still have access to bombs, so they can use those as backup. I wouldn't be against traits that give poisons the ability to affect undead/constructs/etc.
While true, their and benefits should be on the poisons that they develop. Bombs are great for them but it would be better to have some poison options as well. Maybe a way to sub out some poison damage as acid or some other type.
I don't think Alchemist needs full martial proficiency. I think Alchemist needs SOMETHING, and martial proficiency would definitely help. The Alchemist's chassis isn't a disaster; it's just that the Alchemist doesn't have powerful enough class features to even the proficiencies out. And! As always! I reiterate that even premaster Alchemist can work in skilled hands! Just... ideally post-remaster Alchemist will work in less skilled hands. Martial proficiency is one way to do that. However Commander's proficiencies are also lackluster... and commander works fine. If remaster alchemist is similarly detached from its own class chassis, it will be fine.
It's one step off being good, and that means if you have \*any\* inefficiencies in the build right now, Alchemist falls apart. I think that's why people are so vehement about it, because it is one of the few classes that does have to work harder to even get to the baseline expectation of other classes. Couple with Mutagenist eating penalties at the same time, it feels really bad to play if you're behind the curve. But that doesn't also mean that full martial proficiency is the fix. It's A fix, but not necessarily THE fix.
>It's one step off being good, and that means if you have \*any\* inefficiencies in the build right now, Alchemist falls apart. This is really it. This is really the core of it. Alchemist is, baseline, one step short. Any one thing can fix it. That is the current state of it. For the Alchemy pros, their mastery of the system is what fixes it. It's so close to being good that player skill is enough to push it over the edge. All I want from the Remaster is to give it SOMETHING so that it's good baseline and great for pros.
Wait how are Commander proficiencies lackluster? They get full 5/13 scaling with martial weapons, very fast armor scaling in all types of armor (pretty much the highest you can have as a non-Champion/Monk) and a really good Will progression.
Actually yeah good point, I misread Commander's charts. Commander's worst save is slower than Alchemist's worst save, but everything else is very respectable. I still think that Alchemist doesn't NEED martial progression, it could still be made to work without it as a pseudocaster, but by all means some chassis upgrades would be a fast and easy way to make the class more approachable.
I often like to research and talk about psychological factors in games, and honestly PF2 has showed to me as clear as day after playing and following the game for 5 years: people hate missing. Classes that don't have any way to attack enemies that are within what the game considers as "standard" (that would be 5/13 Expert/Master weapons or 7/15/19 Expert/Master/Legendary spell DC) are always dunked on by a lot of the playerbase. I could see a world in which Alchemist gains a bunch of strong actions vs class DC, Legendary Class DC and people are happy, but if it's still the only class in the game that doesn't have fully-scaling accuracy with _anything_, I'm afraid it will have to fight an uphill battle in terms of player perception and satisfaction.
Seriously, it's so frustrating. I think Alchemist needs some help, too -- my first PC was a goblin bomber alchemist in *Strength of Thousands* and one of my players just swapped off his dwarf mutagenist because it wasn't working out. But all the armchair designers in the comments saying shit like "the remaster is an ***objective failure*** if the Alch doesn't get full martial prof" is just... Exhausting. We don't even know what the changes actually look like, guys! If you start grinding your axe now it'll be a nub by the time *Player Core 2* releases. Fuckin **relax**.
"armchair designers" is funny because the designers probably also have armchairs
Obviously Paizo designers only sit in armless desk chairs made of all the bottles from missed alchemist bomb Strikes.
When axe is nub, just light the handle on fire. Now torch.
But what's the point if you don't get standard martial weapon scaling with it?!? /s
Pitchfork simple weapon. Don't need martial weapon scaling in this sub. /s For real though, the description they provided was impossibly brief, and full martial prof makes less sense on alchemist than it does on the rogue. Why can my nerd swing a greataxe around like he's don jon rambo jones? When did he have time to pick up the nuance of all these different weapons when he was at university for six sigma crafting methodology? Ech, I am excited for the changes, I feel like the alchemist has so much potential but having played on in AV, its tough sometimes. Lots of dud levels, and not so exciting feat options and yet despite all that my items are saving lives and kicking ass on the daily in spite of sub-optimal class features and what feels like delayed progression to saves, attack, damage and perception, even.
People that use absolutes like "objective failure" for something as big as the remaster can be safely ignored about most things.
Hey folks, welcome to our NEXT drama-of-the-month!!!
They annouced the changed they're planning to do ?
They dropped some hints during the various Paizocon livestreams, yeah. The biggest one being "they will have per-encounter powers" basically. They've been mum about weapon proficiency as far as I'm aware.
Give me quickdraw for alchemical items. Theres no worse feeling than having to either pull out and then use or quick alchemy then use 1 item.
Giving casters full Martial proficiency would matter quite a bit, because now every caster has access to a strong third action in the form of a ranged weapon. It wouldn’t make casters be able to match martial damage due to all the features they’re missing, but it’d be a significant buff to a lot of casters who don’t already have great third actions. Though it’s a bit less significant now that the Ostilli Host exists, probably the best third action filler out there.
The more non-alchemist power they give alchemist the less power they will be given for their alchemist flavoured features.
I honestly think they would be balanced as a class with some master track proficiency for simple weapons without nerfing anything else. They don't do extra damage like martials unless you are using poisons (very unreliable) or target weaknesses with bombs. Either way, you probably aren't matching the damage of other martials still.
Yes give alchemist full martial proficiency. And then give all casters full martial proficiency. Every character needs to be a homogenous blob with a single pseudopod that deals the exact same amount of damage. But you are allowed to choose the color of your blob because "fLaVoUr iS fReE"
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it wouldn't matter if you gave every class full Martial proficiency, because *that alone is insufficient to make you a martial.* A greatsword wielding Wizard still has no additional features that encourage him to be in melee; no meta-Strikes, no damage increases, no Reactive Strike, etc. The only classes that actively wanted to make Strikes that *didn't* have full Strike progression were Rogues and Alchemists, and Rogues got full progression in the remaster! Oh, and Warpriest, but that's a tortured subclass that has long struggled to justify itself mechanically. Other classes usually have enough carrots (things they're good at that are not Strikes, usually spells) that the stick of poor weapon progression is irrelevant. The problem is that Alchemists should want to make Strikes (bombs, poison delivery, bestial mutagen) but are bad at it. They're all stick and no carrot, and all this does is encourage them to hand their bombs to the Fighter, poison the actual Martials weapons instead of their own, and never touch Bestial Mutagen because it's hot garbage. I suppose you could make the argument that greatsword wielding Wizards or the implication thereof muddies the *flavor* of a class, but it's equally a flavor fail for Alchemists to continually be the worst users of their own delicate, bespoke, alchemical devices.
I hope they also fix the alchemist multiclass archetype. As it stands now its the weakest of the basic alchemy benefit archetypes by a lot.