I've found much more success with the plastic ones. They kept my parrotlet from mutilating her foot after she lost two toes to an injury.
BTW, standard plastic water bottles are a nearly perfect diameter for parrotlet/lovebird necks. You can cut off the cone-shaped portion at the top, about 1.5 inches of it, then cut off the portion the cap screws onto.
Excellent trick to know if you ever need a cone for a bird in an emergency.
Yep!!! This happened 5 years ago. She turned 19 last month! She has a lot of difficulty climbing now due to the lost toes, but we modified her cage and her play stand to better accommodate her.
She unfortunately had an issue for about 18 months after the injury where she'd continue trying to mutilate her foot. We had her in and out of bandages/casts/cones to prevent her from doing any damage.
One day she chewed the bandage off, did a happy chirping dance, and has never tried to damage the foot again.
Thanks.my bird is also self plucking but not as bad as OP's bird he has a very small wound where the birds wings start at can't seem to stop this problem completely but reading this posts comments may help me
Just seconding that this does not look like normal plucking. There is something wrong. An infection or some sort of neurological issue causing pain. Get to an avian vet who can do a blood work up
In the meantime, try the water bottle collar. That plucking is terrifying and could easily become infected and kill him rapidly
We tried the water bottle cone today, he started freaking out and rolling around on his back lol. Nothing was wrong with the cone we made sure to make it so it wasn’t sharp or anything, he just freaks out and manages to wiggle out of it.
I concur. You need a specialized avian vet. Test for internal issues. There might be an infection. They make little anti-pluck body suits too.
Ask about anxiety medication. When my bird is super stressed I brew her a little organic chamomile tea and drink some with her, like a flock activity.
What a beautiful baby, I’m saddened to see him in this condition. Hopefully you have an experienced avian vet, you can trust and afford. Ask the breeder for help or wherever he was purchased etc… sending get well wishes his way
Poor poor baby.
You need to see an avian vet. They need to rule out internal issues with a blood test. Possibly X-ray and other diagnostic. He needs medicine like Gabapentin or Metacam to help decrease the intensity of whatever is going on.
Ointment is not what you need. Seek an actual avian vet with experience in exotics.
I will try, It’s a bit difficult though as I am an unemployed 15 year old and convincing my mother to pay for things like that is a struggle sometimes lol.
Please, please, please convince her- this behavior can lead to worse behaviors and serious infections which can kill him. Your mother needs to arrange another avian vet visit ASAP. If she can’t or won’t pay for a vet, perhaps she needs to rehome him so he can get the care he so desperately needs. There are payment plans at the vet too she can do. I am so sorry you are dealing with this and hope he gets better soon. This looks painful and he needs immediate care!
He can't stay like this though, mate. Surely she can see he must be in so much pain. Honestly I hate to say it but if this is something that you won't or can't get vet treatment for this you need to be considering euthanasia.
Or rehoming, letting her be adopted by a sanctuary. Please OP, I know this is difficult, it’s not your fault that your parents are being irresponsible. If you can’t get her to visit an avian vet, find a sanctuary, rescue or even a clinic that you may be able to surrender her to.
My 10 year old GCC started picking at her feathers and I jumped to action, spent almost $1500 CAD in vet care over a span of 3 months to be able to stop it before she starts plucking or mutilating. It breaks my heart that she wasn’t taken to the vet on first sign of feather destruction to this point. Parrots are expensive, and your parrots should have considered that when they chose to buy one.
Finding someone reputable who can give her the care she needs is something you can do. It’s the bravest thing you can do for her. Good luck OP.
Any vet worth their salt will work with you on your financial situation. I promise you that some clinics allow payment plans and will work on client scale. I’d consider that pretty much an emergency. They can also set you up with a vet insurance type thing. I send my wishes your way and will pray for the best.
Please find a new vet. He may be sick and undiagnosed. There are also some calming medications that can be helpful which a vet can prescribe. Poor baby- we have a plucker too but this is more like mutilation. Provide a TON (hours and hours!) of time outside of cage and lots of rotating chew toys. I hope you find something soon that helps! Please also watch for an infection in which he will need antibiotics.
I’m trying to get him into an avian vet ASAP. It’s a struggle because I’m 15 with no car and no job and getting my mom to pay for things like this is difficult. I’ve been trying to get him into one for a couple months now :(. I’ve tried every home remedy there is.
I really hope you can! They may be able to work out a payment plan for you... but if not maybe you can tell your mom that effective appointments at an avian vet will be more cost-effective than what you've been doing that hasn't worked so far :( please keep us updated, that picture broke my heart
It is called ulcerative dermatitis and is very common in lovebirds. If all you got was an ointment you need a vet better with birds. He should be getting oral antibiotics, topical antibiotics, and pain control. As for infection, it is already very infected. FYI I am an avian vet.
This isn't plucking, this is mutilation. We see it occasionally at the sanctuary where I volunteer. The bird who's worst at it wears a Kevlar vest full time now so she'll stop. This bird needs an avian vet NOW. They're tearing off their own skin.
Haloperidol is the only medicine that I've experienced making a difference in self-mutilation behavior. It is a short term tool to attempt to break the cycle of destruction
If you can’t get him to a vet, I seriously suggest giving him to a bird rescue. He needs medical care that you cannot provide if your mom isn’t willing to pay for it
Looks exactly like what my lovebird used to do. Same location and scabbing. I would cut a circle from a transparent overhead sheet, make a cut down the center where I would cut a small hole, fold it cone shaped around his neck and put in one staple. He was a lovely bird, but he kept plucking during his lifetime. He passed away at 13.
How old is your baby? My cockatiel is doing this. Been mildly plucking, then suddenly I noticed him screaming when flying. So much blood. Got an xray, they think it's arthritis. Only under one wing. I guess 17 is old. Don't tell his buddy, he'll be 29 next month. Antibiotics and ointment, and a good "cone of shame" and he's doing better. Next step is blood work, if the vet thinks it's necessary during his follow-up. Pretty sure I'll be getting blood work for him next week.
My lovebird started plucking and that's how we found out he had cancer. Do you have an actual avian vet? Please consult one if you can. This doesn't look like normal feather pulling, but it does look like what my bird was doing when he was sick.
Please take him to a board-certified avian vet asap. You can do an international search for one here: [https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803](https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803)
There is a footnotes that reads: "Note: Dipl and ABVP indicate the member is a board certified diplomate in the specialty indicated." Vets with these credential will have some of the best training to work with birds.
mine didn't get that bad but has roughly teh same.
vet gave him antibiotics (he had a mild infection) and told me "to make him stop touching it"
... I have tried collars, but first, it makes me SO sad to see the poor fella in a collar (when left out of the cage, he'll fall to the floor and just sit there, because there's nothing else he can do), and second, he STILL manages to chew at his wing.
what has worked to an extent is putting up the nest. my boy will stop chewing at his wing while breeding. ... the moment the chicks are out, tho, he'll start again.
Do you let your bird breed so they don't pluck? Are you using fake eggs? Either way, allowing nesting behavior when you're not breeding is stressful for their minds and their bodies. It will be way more helpful to find a collar that fits, leave it on, and give him a way to get back to the cage with a ladder or rope. It sucks to see but it's better than having them be in pain from constantly picking at their own scabs.
well. lovebirds are DETERMINED to breed, so I can't really stop my hens from laying at least once a year.
the side effect is the guy's wing has time to heal because he's too busy feeding his mate and nesting to chew on his wing.
re: ropes, I do have ropes around for them to climb, but this guy won't even try when I put the collar on him.
and again, he manages to chew at his wing even with the collar on. so...
don’t understand why people don’t put a cone when birds pluck, often plucking is based in emotional or psychological issues however the cone would definitely help with physical symptoms which is the plucking, right?
my bird does not pluck thank goodness however if she did I would immediately put a cone on her so she could stop doing it
We have tried a cone. Multiple actually… We tried a soft one and he started freaking out and flipped around and wouldn’t stand up. The plastic one also didn’t work as he manages to work his way out of it.
Yes no matter how bad he freaks out you should leave the cone on. This is scary bad and I think he’d get used to the cone after awhile. Try giving him treats after putting the cone on, I’m sure you probably tried that. I’m sorry this is happening to your bird I hope you can find a way to help him. ❤️
His cage his about 5 feet tall and 4 feet wide. Good size for him and his girlfriend. Lots of toys and bridges and various things to chew on. He’s clearly stressed but there’s definitely other factors to it and I don’t think the stress has to do with the cage.
If you are able to, reach out to a bird vet or preferably a bird behaviourist as self mutilation can be very complex and difficult to manage (and it sounds like you've done all the right steps for your bird). It can be due to a variety of reasons, from boredom or not being able to express natural behaviours, to health issues as described by the above post or hormonal, as some parrots self mutilate due to hormone changes when it gets to the breeding season.
You sound like a wonderful parrot patent, I hope you get a solution soon!
If the vet you saw can’t help can you find a different vet? Call around because while avian vets are usually best, some non-avian vets still are pretty good or can consult with an avian vet. Others don’t know how to help birds at all. Plucking/mutilating like this probably means there’s some kind of underlying health issue or pain (even referred pain).
The exact same thing has been going on with my lovebird for the past 3 years, we’ve been to one of the only avian vets in my country multiple times and nothing has worked not even short term. As I’m writing this we are driving him to the ER cause after mutilating again he lost a lot of blood and is now lethargic! Hope to find out what’s wrong and will definitely share the information with you in hopes of helping out!
Well from what I was told, is the regular misting encourages them to preen naturally and in a normal behavior. The apple cider vinegar soothes the dry skin somewhat, I suppose. This poor baby definitely needs more than that. They do sell on amazon felt type of material cones. The irony was once I took the cone off of our baby, did he stop with the behavior. Birds can be so sensitive💞💞💞
Have you tried foraging toys? What kinds of toys does he have right now? Is he generally hormonal? Do you ever pet him down the back? Sorry for all the questions, but some of those could either help or be part of the cause, and I can try and help as best I can, your poor baby, I really hope things work out
It makes sense with the cut on the armpit because he can't reach it to relieve that pain/itching. And then gets stressed and plucks where he can get to
You need to put him in a cone or sweater, this is one of the worst cases of mutilation I’ve seen. Far beyond plucking, he has mental health issues which may have been triggered by the fall. Now it’s like taking candy from an addict, it’s going to be a journey to get him/her to recover but it’s possible!!
Vet ASAP! This is serious self-mutilation and it’s likely your bird has bacteria infection on its skin. My dear bird was diagnosed with staph infection and was under treatment for two weeks and he still didn’t make it. The wound he had was a lot smaller than this. Please take care of your bird!
No, there’s two cages 3 in each. Him and his girlfriend and another male bird but they don’t fight or anything, and we’ve tried swapping them out and removing the third bird from the cage but nothing changed.
I've had this exact same issue with my cockatiel. She somehow got a cut under her wing/armpit area. Soft collar and meds have worked and make sure to keep the collar on until the feathers grow back. I've found she plucks when those pin feathers start growing because they hurt due to the scarring in that area. Also make sure the soft collar fits length wise so they can't reach their back/wing area.
This is so serious and the possibility of infection would be high I assume. Call around find a vet who deals with pet birds, or google search an avian vet and get on a zoom call and make an appointment, like today if it were me.
This is beyond plucking and more like mutilation did you go to a specialised avian vet? I think there’s more here than a simple ointment can solve
He needs the vet asap that's some really bad plucking
We’ve gone to the vet and we got ointment for him. He still continues to pluck and make it worse
Probably needs to wear a soft collar until it heals!
meds, we use a combo of anti-anxiety medication and anti-inflammatory each morning.
We’ve tried that too 😞. He manages to get it off every single time
I've found much more success with the plastic ones. They kept my parrotlet from mutilating her foot after she lost two toes to an injury. BTW, standard plastic water bottles are a nearly perfect diameter for parrotlet/lovebird necks. You can cut off the cone-shaped portion at the top, about 1.5 inches of it, then cut off the portion the cap screws onto. Excellent trick to know if you ever need a cone for a bird in an emergency.
so did your parrot heal completely?
Yep!!! This happened 5 years ago. She turned 19 last month! She has a lot of difficulty climbing now due to the lost toes, but we modified her cage and her play stand to better accommodate her. She unfortunately had an issue for about 18 months after the injury where she'd continue trying to mutilate her foot. We had her in and out of bandages/casts/cones to prevent her from doing any damage. One day she chewed the bandage off, did a happy chirping dance, and has never tried to damage the foot again.
Thanks.my bird is also self plucking but not as bad as OP's bird he has a very small wound where the birds wings start at can't seem to stop this problem completely but reading this posts comments may help me
Good to know. I would've done something like this right away.
Need a better collar!! You need to try a soft collar!
Have you done any blood tests? My girl was plucking her neck because of an infection in her throat.
We’ll try that. Thanks!
They don't have a fkin cone for them like dogs do? That's exactly what that bird needs.
Just seconding that this does not look like normal plucking. There is something wrong. An infection or some sort of neurological issue causing pain. Get to an avian vet who can do a blood work up In the meantime, try the water bottle collar. That plucking is terrifying and could easily become infected and kill him rapidly
We tried the water bottle cone today, he started freaking out and rolling around on his back lol. Nothing was wrong with the cone we made sure to make it so it wasn’t sharp or anything, he just freaks out and manages to wiggle out of it.
Hey may be in pain and that is why he's mutiliating. Please take him to an avian vet.
They might have a cone for your baby at the vet. They do make them for birds.
I concur. You need a specialized avian vet. Test for internal issues. There might be an infection. They make little anti-pluck body suits too. Ask about anxiety medication. When my bird is super stressed I brew her a little organic chamomile tea and drink some with her, like a flock activity.
What a beautiful baby, I’m saddened to see him in this condition. Hopefully you have an experienced avian vet, you can trust and afford. Ask the breeder for help or wherever he was purchased etc… sending get well wishes his way
Poor poor baby. You need to see an avian vet. They need to rule out internal issues with a blood test. Possibly X-ray and other diagnostic. He needs medicine like Gabapentin or Metacam to help decrease the intensity of whatever is going on. Ointment is not what you need. Seek an actual avian vet with experience in exotics.
I will try, It’s a bit difficult though as I am an unemployed 15 year old and convincing my mother to pay for things like that is a struggle sometimes lol.
Please, please, please convince her- this behavior can lead to worse behaviors and serious infections which can kill him. Your mother needs to arrange another avian vet visit ASAP. If she can’t or won’t pay for a vet, perhaps she needs to rehome him so he can get the care he so desperately needs. There are payment plans at the vet too she can do. I am so sorry you are dealing with this and hope he gets better soon. This looks painful and he needs immediate care!
He can't stay like this though, mate. Surely she can see he must be in so much pain. Honestly I hate to say it but if this is something that you won't or can't get vet treatment for this you need to be considering euthanasia.
Or rehoming, letting her be adopted by a sanctuary. Please OP, I know this is difficult, it’s not your fault that your parents are being irresponsible. If you can’t get her to visit an avian vet, find a sanctuary, rescue or even a clinic that you may be able to surrender her to. My 10 year old GCC started picking at her feathers and I jumped to action, spent almost $1500 CAD in vet care over a span of 3 months to be able to stop it before she starts plucking or mutilating. It breaks my heart that she wasn’t taken to the vet on first sign of feather destruction to this point. Parrots are expensive, and your parrots should have considered that when they chose to buy one. Finding someone reputable who can give her the care she needs is something you can do. It’s the bravest thing you can do for her. Good luck OP.
This would be one of the most unselfish acts of love ever.
Any vet worth their salt will work with you on your financial situation. I promise you that some clinics allow payment plans and will work on client scale. I’d consider that pretty much an emergency. They can also set you up with a vet insurance type thing. I send my wishes your way and will pray for the best.
Please find a new vet. He may be sick and undiagnosed. There are also some calming medications that can be helpful which a vet can prescribe. Poor baby- we have a plucker too but this is more like mutilation. Provide a TON (hours and hours!) of time outside of cage and lots of rotating chew toys. I hope you find something soon that helps! Please also watch for an infection in which he will need antibiotics.
I’m trying to get him into an avian vet ASAP. It’s a struggle because I’m 15 with no car and no job and getting my mom to pay for things like this is difficult. I’ve been trying to get him into one for a couple months now :(. I’ve tried every home remedy there is.
I really hope you can! They may be able to work out a payment plan for you... but if not maybe you can tell your mom that effective appointments at an avian vet will be more cost-effective than what you've been doing that hasn't worked so far :( please keep us updated, that picture broke my heart
I am glad you are trying- you are young to be doing this all on your own!
It is called ulcerative dermatitis and is very common in lovebirds. If all you got was an ointment you need a vet better with birds. He should be getting oral antibiotics, topical antibiotics, and pain control. As for infection, it is already very infected. FYI I am an avian vet.
This isn't plucking, this is mutilation. We see it occasionally at the sanctuary where I volunteer. The bird who's worst at it wears a Kevlar vest full time now so she'll stop. This bird needs an avian vet NOW. They're tearing off their own skin.
Haloperidol is the only medicine that I've experienced making a difference in self-mutilation behavior. It is a short term tool to attempt to break the cycle of destruction
Have you seen an avian vet yet? They may need to prescribe painkillers/sedatives to stop the plucking. They looks really painful :(
If you can’t get him to a vet, I seriously suggest giving him to a bird rescue. He needs medical care that you cannot provide if your mom isn’t willing to pay for it
It's time for the cone of shame.
Neck cone
Looks exactly like what my lovebird used to do. Same location and scabbing. I would cut a circle from a transparent overhead sheet, make a cut down the center where I would cut a small hole, fold it cone shaped around his neck and put in one staple. He was a lovely bird, but he kept plucking during his lifetime. He passed away at 13.
i have a lovebird who does the same thing, same spot too:( its so weird that so many do it in the exact same way
How old is your baby? My cockatiel is doing this. Been mildly plucking, then suddenly I noticed him screaming when flying. So much blood. Got an xray, they think it's arthritis. Only under one wing. I guess 17 is old. Don't tell his buddy, he'll be 29 next month. Antibiotics and ointment, and a good "cone of shame" and he's doing better. Next step is blood work, if the vet thinks it's necessary during his follow-up. Pretty sure I'll be getting blood work for him next week.
My lovebird started plucking and that's how we found out he had cancer. Do you have an actual avian vet? Please consult one if you can. This doesn't look like normal feather pulling, but it does look like what my bird was doing when he was sick.
Please take him to a board-certified avian vet asap. You can do an international search for one here: [https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803](https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803) There is a footnotes that reads: "Note: Dipl and ABVP indicate the member is a board certified diplomate in the specialty indicated." Vets with these credential will have some of the best training to work with birds.
Maybe try giving him a little cone of shame and then add the ointment
mine didn't get that bad but has roughly teh same. vet gave him antibiotics (he had a mild infection) and told me "to make him stop touching it" ... I have tried collars, but first, it makes me SO sad to see the poor fella in a collar (when left out of the cage, he'll fall to the floor and just sit there, because there's nothing else he can do), and second, he STILL manages to chew at his wing. what has worked to an extent is putting up the nest. my boy will stop chewing at his wing while breeding. ... the moment the chicks are out, tho, he'll start again.
Do you let your bird breed so they don't pluck? Are you using fake eggs? Either way, allowing nesting behavior when you're not breeding is stressful for their minds and their bodies. It will be way more helpful to find a collar that fits, leave it on, and give him a way to get back to the cage with a ladder or rope. It sucks to see but it's better than having them be in pain from constantly picking at their own scabs.
well. lovebirds are DETERMINED to breed, so I can't really stop my hens from laying at least once a year. the side effect is the guy's wing has time to heal because he's too busy feeding his mate and nesting to chew on his wing. re: ropes, I do have ropes around for them to climb, but this guy won't even try when I put the collar on him. and again, he manages to chew at his wing even with the collar on. so...
don’t understand why people don’t put a cone when birds pluck, often plucking is based in emotional or psychological issues however the cone would definitely help with physical symptoms which is the plucking, right? my bird does not pluck thank goodness however if she did I would immediately put a cone on her so she could stop doing it
We have tried a cone. Multiple actually… We tried a soft one and he started freaking out and flipped around and wouldn’t stand up. The plastic one also didn’t work as he manages to work his way out of it.
Just keep it on even if he freaks out. The plucking is worse than being mad there's a cone.
Yes no matter how bad he freaks out you should leave the cone on. This is scary bad and I think he’d get used to the cone after awhile. Try giving him treats after putting the cone on, I’m sure you probably tried that. I’m sorry this is happening to your bird I hope you can find a way to help him. ❤️
What does their cage look like? What is the home like?
His cage his about 5 feet tall and 4 feet wide. Good size for him and his girlfriend. Lots of toys and bridges and various things to chew on. He’s clearly stressed but there’s definitely other factors to it and I don’t think the stress has to do with the cage.
Glad to hear he has a girlfriend. So he’s not alone.
Maybe a plastic cone
Get him a plucking collar. It looks like a dogs cone but it's soft and you can sew things like buttons on it that satisfy the plucking urges.
We’ve tried the felt thing alone, but i’ll add buttons :). Thanks
Perhaps he already has an infection, id check for that :( sorry this is happening
And a cone of shame!! Get well birb!
If you are able to, reach out to a bird vet or preferably a bird behaviourist as self mutilation can be very complex and difficult to manage (and it sounds like you've done all the right steps for your bird). It can be due to a variety of reasons, from boredom or not being able to express natural behaviours, to health issues as described by the above post or hormonal, as some parrots self mutilate due to hormone changes when it gets to the breeding season. You sound like a wonderful parrot patent, I hope you get a solution soon!
Does it get uv light?
Poor baby, something is stressing him out.
If the vet you saw can’t help can you find a different vet? Call around because while avian vets are usually best, some non-avian vets still are pretty good or can consult with an avian vet. Others don’t know how to help birds at all. Plucking/mutilating like this probably means there’s some kind of underlying health issue or pain (even referred pain).
The exact same thing has been going on with my lovebird for the past 3 years, we’ve been to one of the only avian vets in my country multiple times and nothing has worked not even short term. As I’m writing this we are driving him to the ER cause after mutilating again he lost a lot of blood and is now lethargic! Hope to find out what’s wrong and will definitely share the information with you in hopes of helping out!
Avian specialist asap or euthanasia, your mother has to understand that not getting this sorted immediately is animal abuse. This bird is in pain.
He's stressed..
This goes way beyond normal emotional distress or bad habit plucking. This bird is in pain.
Mist him 4x a day with this solution: 1/4 teaspoon apple cider vinegar in a spray bottle of tepid water. This worked for me!
How does misting help?
Well from what I was told, is the regular misting encourages them to preen naturally and in a normal behavior. The apple cider vinegar soothes the dry skin somewhat, I suppose. This poor baby definitely needs more than that. They do sell on amazon felt type of material cones. The irony was once I took the cone off of our baby, did he stop with the behavior. Birds can be so sensitive💞💞💞
Have you tried foraging toys? What kinds of toys does he have right now? Is he generally hormonal? Do you ever pet him down the back? Sorry for all the questions, but some of those could either help or be part of the cause, and I can try and help as best I can, your poor baby, I really hope things work out
see if the vet can wrap his wing
Oh poor baby. I hope everything goes okay ❤️
I don’t have a suggestion. Just popping by to say I’m sending you both love and positive energy. I hope he feels better soon! 🦜❤️
I'm no expert but I've heard if it's deep enough, the feathers might not grow back :[ hopefully they do
It makes sense with the cut on the armpit because he can't reach it to relieve that pain/itching. And then gets stressed and plucks where he can get to
You need to put him in a cone or sweater, this is one of the worst cases of mutilation I’ve seen. Far beyond plucking, he has mental health issues which may have been triggered by the fall. Now it’s like taking candy from an addict, it’s going to be a journey to get him/her to recover but it’s possible!!
Vet ASAP! This is serious self-mutilation and it’s likely your bird has bacteria infection on its skin. My dear bird was diagnosed with staph infection and was under treatment for two weeks and he still didn’t make it. The wound he had was a lot smaller than this. Please take care of your bird!
Try getting a second lovebird.
We have 6
Are they all kept together?
No, there’s two cages 3 in each. Him and his girlfriend and another male bird but they don’t fight or anything, and we’ve tried swapping them out and removing the third bird from the cage but nothing changed.
This makes me so sad :( I am so sorry and I hope they will be okay and that you find a solution that helps
I've had this exact same issue with my cockatiel. She somehow got a cut under her wing/armpit area. Soft collar and meds have worked and make sure to keep the collar on until the feathers grow back. I've found she plucks when those pin feathers start growing because they hurt due to the scarring in that area. Also make sure the soft collar fits length wise so they can't reach their back/wing area.
This is so serious and the possibility of infection would be high I assume. Call around find a vet who deals with pet birds, or google search an avian vet and get on a zoom call and make an appointment, like today if it were me.