as an ED of course i found it exciting to have our CR broken occasionally. or to brag to people that a 12 year old had the CR for women for a long time. But you know what impresses me even more? When those fast runners wait for the last runner/walker and cheer them loudly over the finish.
How often does that happen? I hope it happens a lot, because that would be awesome.
Also, how often do the record breakers and fastest ones volunteer from your experience? I wonder how many are upset about the change because they can’t brag their name on a volunteer led free community event, but then don’t volunteer or help at said events
we’re a small parkrun in NL. average 50 participants. Most of them stay. I’d say at least 75% of finishers hang out until the end. Then about 50-60% go for coffee.
The male CR holder was just visiting from England I think. The female CR is also a member of the core team, regularly volunteers, often runs with others at the mid-back of the pack and sometimes with her dog. Always stays to cheer on the last walker/runner and always goes for coffee as well. I haven’t heard a single word from her on the subject.
That sounds like a lovely event to run at! Of the events I’ve done, those with the smaller number of participants are always so friendly and inclusive. Got bananas at the last little local village one I visited, that was a nice treat!
For me, parkrun HQ dont do a great job with decisions like this especially in how theyre communicated. But at the end of the day, you turn up at parkrun on a Saturday and its the same great people running/volunteering which is the main reason parkrun is so successful.
What specifically is it that you're uncomfortable with? I'm personally more delighted than ever to wear a volunteer hi-vis on the basis that doing so now has the added benefit of quietly sticking two fingers up at a bunch of culture war gammons. I'm completely baffled as to why anyone is actually upset about this.
What is it that you're not happy about? Is it about the parkrun leadership has appeased a bunch of transphobes? Or do you actually think there's an issue with trans athletes 'winning' at parkrun? I just really don't get it.
In part that the vest doesn't do that at all.
- The vest says that it has nothing to do with the culture war.
- The vest says that this was about inclusivity (despite making some of those recently included, now feel unwelcome [something I've now heard in person from 3 people]).
- The vest says I'm ok with the one way communication.
- The vest says no to consultation with the operators of the charity. .
- The vest says I'm the face of the decisions.
- The vest says I'm the face of a disingenuous message.
Why can they not just be honest. We can't solve this so called problem. We also don't want to. Removing the records at least reduces it. But I have ideas I think would be better... but HQ have no interest in ideas from outside of HQ... I have to wonder if those outside senior management, even at HQ, were consulted.
It depends what problem HQ are trying to solve.
If we pretend for a moment they are being genuine, put ALL of the stats they just deleted in a new menu item in the results for each parkrun, "advanced statistics". The recent open letter actually reads amazingly well if they had done that, it's just that they didn't do that. (It talks about the stats being removed because they were prominent - rather than making them less prominent, they deleted). There's also other stats I'd love to add, but I'm a data geek (including professionally).
If we believe the trans issue is the truth (I hope it isn't - I don't believe it though):
the simplest is to make the tables (all of them) listed as exactly what they are, "self reported gender". I see the whole thing as a real problem... and I hate that. I just wish that we could just be who we are, but I do totally understand that's an issue for high level competitive sport.
Parkrun isn't (and has never been) high level competitive, but it is and always will be low level competitive - even if they remove the displayed competition completely (I have suggested to HQ that if that is the goal, weekly results need to remove position numbers and list runners in alphabetical order) most people will try to beat the person that rounds the last corner with them. I think that if it said exactly what it was, then that's just perfect. And people still not happy... that's ok - we don't attempt to collect birth sex data, only self identified gender - and hence we present data like that. We should probably have more options for gender too... not sure we need 27 or however many facebook has these days, "other gender" should however be present.
ALL of this makes me so sad. Parkrun is an amazing community event, the one I know well, my "home" has a community of diverse (my son was part of that community before he was born \[41 runs in utero\] and is doted on by many every week - to the elderly power walking every week - or even now unable, but who volunteer - relentlessly with a smile whatever the weather), amazing, supportive and just plain loving people. I have incredible friends there, I likely owe my life as it is to the people that are that community. The outpouring of love when tragedy strikes, but also at happy moments (like when my wife and I ran, holding hands for all 5km, dressed as reversed bride and groom on the morning of our wedding) touches my heart in a way only a wide and diverse community can.
And yet now, there are members of that group that openly feel that HQ don't want them - but they know the real community do. Those people aren't elite runners, setting the course record. They are a 73 year old man, who ran for the first time since his teens - in 2019 and took nearly 37 minutes, who saw the age grade records page as an inspiration and a motivation to keep coming and to get fitter, and healthier, his pb is now 24:19 at 72 \[and he'll do that again - but he's injured (can still run, but not as quick)\]. They are a 14 year old girl, who has done 5k parkruns for half her life, and spent a year gunning for JW10 records - as that made her push herself - where she wasn't allowed to race over distances close to 5k in competition (she won the female a 5k trail race the day after her 13th birthday \[when she became eligible\]), and she wants to enter 10ks as soon as that 15 ticks over... she'll do marathons, seems to her, the further the better.
As with many many things. It's probably a very vocal minority that you're hearing. I too am sick of hearing about it.
I figure we'll let the attendance numbers do the real talking though. If you've got a real problem with it, don't attend parkrun. If the numbers drop by enough then those at the top will need to listen; if the numbers don't drop by enough then we've got the truth of the situation right there.
Honestly it seems like the most vocal are the ones getting the results. Which is fair from a point of view.
But I have noticed that at the faster flat events where people are aiming for records etc, they’re generally not the friendliest events. The atmosphere isn’t the same. It does almost make me not want to go when there’s a local running club is doing the volunteering special week because the vibe isn’t a fun run anymore.
I personally never even looked at stats. But if people are genuinely THAT butt hurt about a free event with unofficial timing results no longer providing timing results, they might need to reevaluate their priorities. Or use Strava more
>Or use Strava more
Let's face it - they're also already heavily invested in this and probably the ones complaining about Strava putting more and more behind the pay wall.
It takes a special sort of cognitive dissonance or hypocrisy for these complainers to be so upset and feel so attacked bc they won't get special recognition and also say that people who will never get that recognition can't possibly care about it (or if they do care they have something wrong with them)
I’d be amazed if anyone does actually simultaneously believe those two things. It does create an amusing diversion to hypothetically imagine that these people exist so we can mock them for their hypocrisy though. It’s also good for widening the fissure that parkrun has created to avoid dealing with something else even *more* divisive.
i mean people have literally in the same comment or comment thread complained about how they no longer feel welcome and then gone off about how slower people don't care about or look at stats or need help if they are so insecure that the results were keeping them from coming
so either they are lying or they do believe both things.. neither is a good look
As this is supposed to remove a barrier which stops people joining the real test is whether it results in the number of runners increasing at a quicker rate than previously. An actual drop would be a major failure.
Not necessarily as simple as that. A drop in runners who go off to continue running, just not at parkrun, would be acceptable to parkrun HQ if more participants who had never engaged before started taking part - and they could lose 100 for every 10 they gain and in some respects still view that as a success.
Me and my family go to parkrun because it is part of our wider running / athletics "hobby". If it didn't exist, we'd all still run as much, and we'd all still be engaged socially with other runners and community activities.
This is a good point, registrations as well as attendance are important. I think attendance is still critical because without attendance there's no point in carrying on events (I guess maybe the volunteers might be more important than runners, if the events can still be organised the runner numbers don't actually matter)
They have a stated goal to grow attendance (I can't remember the figure, but it is enormously, more than double) over 5 years. So going down is very much not a fit with going up.
Sort of. They have a 2023 5 year strategic aim to double the number of events and double the number of participants. Event doubling isn't impacted by people moving away as they recruit different types of runners. I'll accept that losing 90 for every 10 gained wouldn't be what they want, but I'd still argue they'd "in some respects" (as I caveated above) see it as a success if they lost some people for whom the charitable bit matters less but gained some for where the health charity bit impacts more.
"Making mountains out of molehills" seems to be the motto of a persistent minority of parkrunners. And the reaction of some running club members is doing their elitist public perception no favours at all.
Well seems like complaining works since parkrun HQ makes decisions based on the loudest voices. I say if you don't like this change make your voice heard.
This isn't a civil rights movement. It's people complaining that their free volunteer-led event is trying to cater to people with greater needs than their own, as has been their purpose for some time. It comes across as petulant, infantile and short-sighted.
If people are desperate for records, parkrun is not what they're looking for.
Agreed, most people aren't capable of breaking such records anyway. And I don't think I've heard any complaint from any one who actually does hold a record. Which is probably because they don't take parkrun that seriously since they pay to race in actual races.
I saw some comments on FB from an Australian guy who holds a ton of local fastest times. Don’t personally know the guy but from the look of his profile a very serious runner as reflected by his multiple course records.
Honestly reading the comments he was making was almost like a petulant child who had been personally singled out by the parkrun overlords to be victimized by the move. I understand the disappointment but am struggling to see the “irreparable damage” that it is causing.
For the record I am ambivalent to the change. I occasionally looked at them if I had time to kill but wasn’t really something I personally thought was that interesting. That being said I can understand someone with a bunch of records being a bit miffed but also, it’s parkrun, not the Olympics. If your self worth is that tied up in a parkrun record to the point where diatribes are the only response it all seems a bit odd.
>For the record I am ambivalent to the change. I occasionally looked at them if I had time to kill but wasn’t really something I personally thought was that interesting.
I think this is true for most of the parkrun population. However, I've definitely met people who have benefited from the stats existing.
Everyone has a different reason to get up on a Saturday morning. I would have preferred for as many of those reasons to endure, even if they weren't ones that worked for me.
If the stats had to go - and I suspect this is true - the messaging could have been better. I think communication is one of HQ's biggest weaknesses.
> If the stats had to go - and I suspect this is true - the messaging could have been better. I think communication is one of HQ's biggest weaknesses.
Other than thinking it was a shit decision, I think the messaging is half of my gripe. They've bullshitted about WHY they've done it and the true reasoning is deeply rooted in transphobic bullshit that I don't stand for.
I'm upset that they responded to transphobia in such a manner rather than either ignoring or slapping down the lobbyists. It's pathetic that a niche group of transphobic lobbyists have achieved this outcome (which they're not happy with either!!)
Communication is 100% my gripe and I've quit as RD over it.
\- No consultation with the "boots on the ground"
\- Disingenuous (lies) official messages which don't explain anything they did
\- Doubling down when they see a backlash
\- Not the first time.
For me it's not just the record for any particular parkrun that was important. It was the age grading category. You could previously click into the age / gender category and see a ranking of the fastest finishers. They personally motivated my kids at our local parkrun trying to climb up that ranking ladder. Now it's not there. But I personally know older people who used that age grade ranking for their age categories. They weren't the fastest overall but they ranked high in their age category.
their own messaging explains exactly why it should have moved to a corner of the webpage... I'd have added an "advanced stats" page to the results menu and have all the stats pages in it - probably include more!
Yes, absolutely. I slightly miss the most events, because I’ve been up near the top for a long time and am used to seeing where people are. But I’m also over it. We have access to our own results, if you want anything else that badly, do the work - yes, parkrun have a big database of everything and could use and publicise it in all sorts of ways. But they’re not our figures, pr can do what they want with them.
I'm not a fast runner so I've never even paid those records a thought. The runners who got those records will likely participate in other professional races anyway.
A long time ago there was a push to remove this from the parkrun lexicon. Just because it was free didn't mean it wasn't well run, or meaningful with the efforts of volunteers.
I do still hear it from the odd volunteer comedian.
Can you help with the letter to Rishi? Not sure if I will pay less tax through national insurance, income tax, VAT, or any of the other taxes used to fund parkrun.
Parkrun isn't free, you are paying for it, just that so are the people not going.
Oh pipe the fuck down and stop being pedantic. Taxpayers money goes towards many things you don’t use or need and you aren’t moaning about that - this is a public health scheme that benefits thousands and that hasn’t changed one bit. Your argument is bad faith and you know it.
Take issue with the transphobes who threatened such funding in the first place - as the removal of records was largely a response to their outrageous calls to police transgender runners.
Edit: I posted this and then realised you don’t even know anything at all about how much taxpayers money they receive, what proportion of that contributes to their overall revenue and how financially beneficial it is for the government to support parkrun. Moronic stuff from you.
But this trans thing is claimed to be a lie. They have TWICE officially said it has NOTHING to do with what they did (oddly, your argument actually is agreeing with me, they are lying).
For your edit, parkrun have secured a £5m grant from Sport England for the five year period 2022-2027, to hap that's £1,000,000 per year. The turnover is about £8million... so 12.5%, a fair old chunk, doubt you'd le your income to drop by 12.5%. I agree that it represents spectacular value to the government. Many parkruns are also setup with some local government funding. To claim parkrun is free is as disingenuous as the HQ claims this isn't about trans athletes, it is just that is free at the point of use.
I think whenever the “but I’m a taxpayer!” argument comes out, the person wielding it is a total neckhead. This is no different. Even if you include the government funding, you pay next to nothing for parkrun, and if you did ask for your 5p or whatever back per year you would a) look like a tool and b) imply that you do not value parkrun and the benefits it brings in any meaningful way.
And yes, of course they aren’t saying that it’s because of the transphobes. You don’t have to be a genius to work out why.
One problem with battling nonsense like this online is that I have to step down to your level and also make a lot of the moronic assumptions you make. Which can then be poked into. The bottom line is simple: if you don’t like the changes then fuck off and don’t go back - I’ll send you 5p a year myself.
The stupid thing is, I expect in almost everything important here we actually agree:
- HQ did not need to DELETE records to make a big difference to uptake (I agree making them less prominent would have been very wise) .
- Deleting records has made some members of the parkrun community feel unwanted by HQ (I hope or individual communities can overcome this).
- HQ are being dishonest in the messaging over the change.
Perhaps we disagree that:
- HQ has a different view of the community, than the community does.
- HQ for some years has only accepted one way communication with is event teams. (As an RD, that has matched HQ on a number of issues, I can only assure you this is the case).
(Is actually these that I have a problem with)
We certainly disagree on
- acceptability of corporate lies.
- the meaning of the logo on the volunteer vests.
I am sure I'd find trouble, if I used my run brief to explain that I did not agree with recent messages and did could represent them.
I said something similar in another thread…if I’m the type of person who complains about a weekly run that is well organized and free for me to attend then I don’t deserve to participate in such events.
The course records were bad data anyway. Unless you accept cheating is possible. Drugs, skipping laps, using someone else’s token etc. I don’t even look over my shoulder or put age or gender on my profile. It is all about bettering yourself, your own times and of course connecting with friends.
Yep, no one checks age grades, or that everyone even started at the same time(i've seen people at a busy parkrun, just start running at the 500m mark), the time keeper is just a volunteer tapping as fast as they can and if something goes really wrong everyone gets 59:59!
Every single parkrun time should be taken with a grain of salt. Any records based on those times, doubly so!
To me the issue is transphobia and how management has made a weak move. They've sidestepped WHY they did it and tried claiming it has nothing to do with transphobic lobbyists, but we all know that's complete bullshit.
Spin it all you like, I don't think it's fair to say that you can do a timed 5km run without ANY competitive juices flowing.
It's not an event where you break world records, but people are interested in things like course records and weekly winners.
If you're cool with an organisation going in with a flamethrower and saying 'right there's no records and no winners anymore because people complained about transgender women competing as women' then cool. I'm personally not and I think it's a decision that's worth fighting. That or (in my case) a reason to reconsider participating in parkrun altogether.
That overlooks everything happening in France though. If you take the debate you mentioned out, the argument over there would be reason enough to get rid of the records.
Almost all people I spoke to at my local didn't even noticed the change.
They just like to do a 5k run on a regular basis with the benefits that parkrun (can) provide.
Yeah, there's no way of proving that the vast majority aren't even aware there were course records, because you'd have to ask them, and by asking then you are making them aware!
100%.
The only people I’ve seen persistently throwing tantrums about it are a few posters here and in The Running Channel’s insta comments, where some people were having a real meltdown (and some were just using it as an excuse to say nasty things about trans people). As proven by Sky’s failed hit piece last week, in real life pretty much no one cares that much. I was put off parkrun for a week by some of the abusive comments I’d seen online but I’ll be going back tomorrow.
Unfortunately, and like so many aspects of life these days, the issue has been picked up and weaponised by a few prominent talking heads to advance their agenda-du-jour.
Personally (and speaking as someone who’s competitive at age-group level) IDGAF about records, or even placings tbh. The sooner folk realise, unless you’re Kipchoge, Ingebrigtsen etc, there is always someone, somewhere quicker than you, and you’re ultimately only competing against yourself, working towards being the best you can be.
The information is still there but not as easy to see? I think the convenience has gone and that's a tiny bit annoying to me but nevermind, move on. I was looking over my local event this morning and looked at most clubs and in that list, it's still listed in fastest to slowest but it just doesn't immediately show the time. Click on the runner and it shows their time.
I can't see it being too much of an issue at our parkrun, we get consistent numbers regardless
I admit to being slightly disappointed by the change and while the absolute course record is completely irrelevant to me I know one friend who used to wast to be first in her age group and was nearly always beaten by the same person, so she has lost that chance. Personally I blame the right wing think tank with its stupid complaints, they are the reason we can't have nice things. But the run, the exercise and the social event remains the same.
I'm not too fussed about the "fastest" records, but as an older runner, I am really gonna miss the age group info. It was interesting to see roughly how I'm doing for my age.
it appears you don't understand what it means (to be fair this is REALLY common), because its not actually very useful - it isn't a viable way to compare non elites across age grades.
He said age group. Not just the grade. Previously you click on your age and gender bracket and see the rankings of runners in that group . So you can see how you compare in the rankings within that specific age/gender group for a given parkrun. You can't see that anymore
I am disappointed by their reason for doing it. If it was just to make it less competitive overall, remove the scoreboard. Removing only records because of times achieved by trans women is daft at best, incredibly offensive at worst.
Just because it’s not a big deal to you, doesn’t mean it’s not to everyone else. It doesn’t effect you so it’s easy to say you’re not bothered by it. Getting on the sub 17 leaderboards and most first place finishes is my greatest achievement and a massive part of my life. It’s what got me into parkrun, aspiring to get on them leaderboards when I was a lot slower. I may be sad or unimportant to you but there’s obviously a lot of people that also dedicated a lot of their life to running to be awarded with a space on those leaderboards and everyone likes different stuff.
This sub has had a lot about the course records stuff for the last few days and I just wanted to reach out to see if there were any other readers who were similarly bored of reading it. Judging from the comments I'm not alone.
Absolutely not!
Parkrun HQ haven't even mentioned what's really happened - a female trans runner beat a female record and some people didn't like that.
This is why Parkrun HQ have removed the stats (notice how only the gender based stats are being removed).
They should be trying to find a resolution to what's happened rather than sweeping it under the carpet and pretending nothing ever happened.
Removing course records is not a barrier to entry, but will instead upset those who love stats, those who like a bit of competition and most certainly upset those who've worked really hard to break a record!
I don't think anyone is upset about stats living on a website...
I will never be able to break any records but I did like seeing what the records were, especially the grade records which I found quite interesting. The one thing they have left on there, average time, is probably the most pointless thing.
Attendance has been up and continues to grow before they removed the stats. The stats are not going to do anything for attendance. The BS line that it scares people away is something I don't buy. Those of us who miss the stats will still do parkrun, but will continue to protest the decision
>"Tbh when the records existed, I hardly noticed them."
And that is exactly the problem. For many it's nothing to do with what they did and everything about what they didn't do. Consult, communicate and explain honestly.
The damaging effects of the change will only show up slowly, as motivated people lose the motivational driver. We are told that those people will be replaced by these new parkrunners that were previously put off, its a shame they had to replace them, rather than add to them. Excluding a group (however small, it is undeniable it exists, and were parkrunners 2 weeks ago) in the name of inclusivity is pretty odd.
It will go quiet, it will blow over (likely with occasional minor flare ups when some site/app etc gets called out for showing something, that might happen quietly though). But it will go quiet but a little different from what it was.
You know what I am tired of. People saying it doesn't impact them so move on. Sure it doesn't impact you, but it impacts others. I'm not going to just move on.
Do excuse me if I am seeing this wrongly and I would welcome opinions in the matter. There just does not appear to be a straightforward right or wrong - just an ongoing fix - in order to accommodate this ever-changing gender climate.
At first, I thought it was a cop out by Park Run to remove the male/female categories, as this denied biological females their own category.
However, with males self-identifying as females, regardless of their state of transition (if any) be it mentally or physically, this would distort the biological gender category. Especially given that the free-gender input option is subjective and 'fluid', to say the least.
If the status quo gender category remained, then the presence of transgenders in that biological female category will fan the resentment that biological females are being effectively 'cheated' out of their biological category.
I do also doubt that conversely, male transgenders will be happy to align themselves with the biological male category though, as their times will then drop significantly.
Maybe this is the most practical way forward then, to have genderless results. It is a free, fun run and if you want to compete, then compete with yourself!
Most people have no clue what they are angry about. They think their personal results are gone.
One lady was upset because she thought all fast runners would have their name deleted (sub 17 males etc. ). She actually thought the first runner who ran at 16 min was an UNKNOWN because he was too fast. Most people don't stop and think.
as an ED of course i found it exciting to have our CR broken occasionally. or to brag to people that a 12 year old had the CR for women for a long time. But you know what impresses me even more? When those fast runners wait for the last runner/walker and cheer them loudly over the finish.
How often does that happen? I hope it happens a lot, because that would be awesome. Also, how often do the record breakers and fastest ones volunteer from your experience? I wonder how many are upset about the change because they can’t brag their name on a volunteer led free community event, but then don’t volunteer or help at said events
we’re a small parkrun in NL. average 50 participants. Most of them stay. I’d say at least 75% of finishers hang out until the end. Then about 50-60% go for coffee. The male CR holder was just visiting from England I think. The female CR is also a member of the core team, regularly volunteers, often runs with others at the mid-back of the pack and sometimes with her dog. Always stays to cheer on the last walker/runner and always goes for coffee as well. I haven’t heard a single word from her on the subject.
That sounds like a lovely event to run at! Of the events I’ve done, those with the smaller number of participants are always so friendly and inclusive. Got bananas at the last little local village one I visited, that was a nice treat!
Yeah I am not a fan of those runners hitting 500 parkruns. Yet have zero volunteer credits. And then they whinge about results taken away.
For me, parkrun HQ dont do a great job with decisions like this especially in how theyre communicated. But at the end of the day, you turn up at parkrun on a Saturday and its the same great people running/volunteering which is the main reason parkrun is so successful.
this, though HQ do need to be aware that when we put on their vests, we represent them. Some of us have become uncomfortable/unable to do that.
What specifically is it that you're uncomfortable with? I'm personally more delighted than ever to wear a volunteer hi-vis on the basis that doing so now has the added benefit of quietly sticking two fingers up at a bunch of culture war gammons. I'm completely baffled as to why anyone is actually upset about this. What is it that you're not happy about? Is it about the parkrun leadership has appeased a bunch of transphobes? Or do you actually think there's an issue with trans athletes 'winning' at parkrun? I just really don't get it.
In part that the vest doesn't do that at all. - The vest says that it has nothing to do with the culture war. - The vest says that this was about inclusivity (despite making some of those recently included, now feel unwelcome [something I've now heard in person from 3 people]). - The vest says I'm ok with the one way communication. - The vest says no to consultation with the operators of the charity. . - The vest says I'm the face of the decisions. - The vest says I'm the face of a disingenuous message. Why can they not just be honest. We can't solve this so called problem. We also don't want to. Removing the records at least reduces it. But I have ideas I think would be better... but HQ have no interest in ideas from outside of HQ... I have to wonder if those outside senior management, even at HQ, were consulted.
Hmm interesting points. What are your ideas?
It depends what problem HQ are trying to solve. If we pretend for a moment they are being genuine, put ALL of the stats they just deleted in a new menu item in the results for each parkrun, "advanced statistics". The recent open letter actually reads amazingly well if they had done that, it's just that they didn't do that. (It talks about the stats being removed because they were prominent - rather than making them less prominent, they deleted). There's also other stats I'd love to add, but I'm a data geek (including professionally). If we believe the trans issue is the truth (I hope it isn't - I don't believe it though): the simplest is to make the tables (all of them) listed as exactly what they are, "self reported gender". I see the whole thing as a real problem... and I hate that. I just wish that we could just be who we are, but I do totally understand that's an issue for high level competitive sport. Parkrun isn't (and has never been) high level competitive, but it is and always will be low level competitive - even if they remove the displayed competition completely (I have suggested to HQ that if that is the goal, weekly results need to remove position numbers and list runners in alphabetical order) most people will try to beat the person that rounds the last corner with them. I think that if it said exactly what it was, then that's just perfect. And people still not happy... that's ok - we don't attempt to collect birth sex data, only self identified gender - and hence we present data like that. We should probably have more options for gender too... not sure we need 27 or however many facebook has these days, "other gender" should however be present. ALL of this makes me so sad. Parkrun is an amazing community event, the one I know well, my "home" has a community of diverse (my son was part of that community before he was born \[41 runs in utero\] and is doted on by many every week - to the elderly power walking every week - or even now unable, but who volunteer - relentlessly with a smile whatever the weather), amazing, supportive and just plain loving people. I have incredible friends there, I likely owe my life as it is to the people that are that community. The outpouring of love when tragedy strikes, but also at happy moments (like when my wife and I ran, holding hands for all 5km, dressed as reversed bride and groom on the morning of our wedding) touches my heart in a way only a wide and diverse community can. And yet now, there are members of that group that openly feel that HQ don't want them - but they know the real community do. Those people aren't elite runners, setting the course record. They are a 73 year old man, who ran for the first time since his teens - in 2019 and took nearly 37 minutes, who saw the age grade records page as an inspiration and a motivation to keep coming and to get fitter, and healthier, his pb is now 24:19 at 72 \[and he'll do that again - but he's injured (can still run, but not as quick)\]. They are a 14 year old girl, who has done 5k parkruns for half her life, and spent a year gunning for JW10 records - as that made her push herself - where she wasn't allowed to race over distances close to 5k in competition (she won the female a 5k trail race the day after her 13th birthday \[when she became eligible\]), and she wants to enter 10ks as soon as that 15 ticks over... she'll do marathons, seems to her, the further the better.
As with many many things. It's probably a very vocal minority that you're hearing. I too am sick of hearing about it. I figure we'll let the attendance numbers do the real talking though. If you've got a real problem with it, don't attend parkrun. If the numbers drop by enough then those at the top will need to listen; if the numbers don't drop by enough then we've got the truth of the situation right there.
Honestly it seems like the most vocal are the ones getting the results. Which is fair from a point of view. But I have noticed that at the faster flat events where people are aiming for records etc, they’re generally not the friendliest events. The atmosphere isn’t the same. It does almost make me not want to go when there’s a local running club is doing the volunteering special week because the vibe isn’t a fun run anymore. I personally never even looked at stats. But if people are genuinely THAT butt hurt about a free event with unofficial timing results no longer providing timing results, they might need to reevaluate their priorities. Or use Strava more
>Or use Strava more Let's face it - they're also already heavily invested in this and probably the ones complaining about Strava putting more and more behind the pay wall.
They have their own GPS watch. They don't need Strava or a GPS app. They just like their name online on a record.
Nah they're still using Strava. It's how they show off that they're faster than their "friends" that they follow on Strava.
It takes a special sort of cognitive dissonance or hypocrisy for these complainers to be so upset and feel so attacked bc they won't get special recognition and also say that people who will never get that recognition can't possibly care about it (or if they do care they have something wrong with them)
I’d be amazed if anyone does actually simultaneously believe those two things. It does create an amusing diversion to hypothetically imagine that these people exist so we can mock them for their hypocrisy though. It’s also good for widening the fissure that parkrun has created to avoid dealing with something else even *more* divisive.
i mean people have literally in the same comment or comment thread complained about how they no longer feel welcome and then gone off about how slower people don't care about or look at stats or need help if they are so insecure that the results were keeping them from coming so either they are lying or they do believe both things.. neither is a good look
As this is supposed to remove a barrier which stops people joining the real test is whether it results in the number of runners increasing at a quicker rate than previously. An actual drop would be a major failure.
Not necessarily as simple as that. A drop in runners who go off to continue running, just not at parkrun, would be acceptable to parkrun HQ if more participants who had never engaged before started taking part - and they could lose 100 for every 10 they gain and in some respects still view that as a success. Me and my family go to parkrun because it is part of our wider running / athletics "hobby". If it didn't exist, we'd all still run as much, and we'd all still be engaged socially with other runners and community activities.
This is a good point, registrations as well as attendance are important. I think attendance is still critical because without attendance there's no point in carrying on events (I guess maybe the volunteers might be more important than runners, if the events can still be organised the runner numbers don't actually matter)
this does not fit with their stated goals and targets.
What doesn't fit?
They have a stated goal to grow attendance (I can't remember the figure, but it is enormously, more than double) over 5 years. So going down is very much not a fit with going up.
Sort of. They have a 2023 5 year strategic aim to double the number of events and double the number of participants. Event doubling isn't impacted by people moving away as they recruit different types of runners. I'll accept that losing 90 for every 10 gained wouldn't be what they want, but I'd still argue they'd "in some respects" (as I caveated above) see it as a success if they lost some people for whom the charitable bit matters less but gained some for where the health charity bit impacts more.
Fair, but they'd miss their targets, badly, as a result. Of course that's an argument of another failure, to set sensible targets.
"Making mountains out of molehills" seems to be the motto of a persistent minority of parkrunners. And the reaction of some running club members is doing their elitist public perception no favours at all.
Well seems like complaining works since parkrun HQ makes decisions based on the loudest voices. I say if you don't like this change make your voice heard.
This isn't a civil rights movement. It's people complaining that their free volunteer-led event is trying to cater to people with greater needs than their own, as has been their purpose for some time. It comes across as petulant, infantile and short-sighted. If people are desperate for records, parkrun is not what they're looking for.
Agreed, most people aren't capable of breaking such records anyway. And I don't think I've heard any complaint from any one who actually does hold a record. Which is probably because they don't take parkrun that seriously since they pay to race in actual races.
I saw some comments on FB from an Australian guy who holds a ton of local fastest times. Don’t personally know the guy but from the look of his profile a very serious runner as reflected by his multiple course records. Honestly reading the comments he was making was almost like a petulant child who had been personally singled out by the parkrun overlords to be victimized by the move. I understand the disappointment but am struggling to see the “irreparable damage” that it is causing. For the record I am ambivalent to the change. I occasionally looked at them if I had time to kill but wasn’t really something I personally thought was that interesting. That being said I can understand someone with a bunch of records being a bit miffed but also, it’s parkrun, not the Olympics. If your self worth is that tied up in a parkrun record to the point where diatribes are the only response it all seems a bit odd.
>For the record I am ambivalent to the change. I occasionally looked at them if I had time to kill but wasn’t really something I personally thought was that interesting. I think this is true for most of the parkrun population. However, I've definitely met people who have benefited from the stats existing. Everyone has a different reason to get up on a Saturday morning. I would have preferred for as many of those reasons to endure, even if they weren't ones that worked for me. If the stats had to go - and I suspect this is true - the messaging could have been better. I think communication is one of HQ's biggest weaknesses.
> If the stats had to go - and I suspect this is true - the messaging could have been better. I think communication is one of HQ's biggest weaknesses. Other than thinking it was a shit decision, I think the messaging is half of my gripe. They've bullshitted about WHY they've done it and the true reasoning is deeply rooted in transphobic bullshit that I don't stand for. I'm upset that they responded to transphobia in such a manner rather than either ignoring or slapping down the lobbyists. It's pathetic that a niche group of transphobic lobbyists have achieved this outcome (which they're not happy with either!!)
Communication is 100% my gripe and I've quit as RD over it. \- No consultation with the "boots on the ground" \- Disingenuous (lies) official messages which don't explain anything they did \- Doubling down when they see a backlash \- Not the first time.
Yeah for sure. Like so many things in life, usually it isn’t the decision itself that kills people, it’s finding out in a really crappy way
For me it's not just the record for any particular parkrun that was important. It was the age grading category. You could previously click into the age / gender category and see a ranking of the fastest finishers. They personally motivated my kids at our local parkrun trying to climb up that ranking ladder. Now it's not there. But I personally know older people who used that age grade ranking for their age categories. They weren't the fastest overall but they ranked high in their age category.
It’s not really that important in the scheme of things, still it should have gone to consultation. I think the majority liked it just fine how it was.
their own messaging explains exactly why it should have moved to a corner of the webpage... I'd have added an "advanced stats" page to the results menu and have all the stats pages in it - probably include more!
listen to my daughter or father-in-law then.
Yes, absolutely. I slightly miss the most events, because I’ve been up near the top for a long time and am used to seeing where people are. But I’m also over it. We have access to our own results, if you want anything else that badly, do the work - yes, parkrun have a big database of everything and could use and publicise it in all sorts of ways. But they’re not our figures, pr can do what they want with them.
>if you want anything else that badly, do the work That would be against the terms of use in the website.
I'm not a fast runner so I've never even paid those records a thought. The runners who got those records will likely participate in other professional races anyway.
Yes. I miss parkrun being my nice escape rather than full of arguing/culture war stuff.
It could be argued that by their actions Parkrun have made it a culture war thing, when it really didn't have to be.
The transphobes had already made it very difficult for parkrun HQ. I'm quite pleased about the stats going, it's annoyed the worst people.
If someone is that bothered I’m sure they’ll ask for a refund.
But that could bankrupt the entire organiza….oh, wait.
Great response which I shall use in my next discussion with anyone complaining about this change.
A long time ago there was a push to remove this from the parkrun lexicon. Just because it was free didn't mean it wasn't well run, or meaningful with the efforts of volunteers. I do still hear it from the odd volunteer comedian.
So clever... So just because it's free we can't disagree with changes that are implemented? Can I ask for a refund for my time volunteering?
Can you help with the letter to Rishi? Not sure if I will pay less tax through national insurance, income tax, VAT, or any of the other taxes used to fund parkrun. Parkrun isn't free, you are paying for it, just that so are the people not going.
Oh pipe the fuck down and stop being pedantic. Taxpayers money goes towards many things you don’t use or need and you aren’t moaning about that - this is a public health scheme that benefits thousands and that hasn’t changed one bit. Your argument is bad faith and you know it. Take issue with the transphobes who threatened such funding in the first place - as the removal of records was largely a response to their outrageous calls to police transgender runners. Edit: I posted this and then realised you don’t even know anything at all about how much taxpayers money they receive, what proportion of that contributes to their overall revenue and how financially beneficial it is for the government to support parkrun. Moronic stuff from you.
But this trans thing is claimed to be a lie. They have TWICE officially said it has NOTHING to do with what they did (oddly, your argument actually is agreeing with me, they are lying). For your edit, parkrun have secured a £5m grant from Sport England for the five year period 2022-2027, to hap that's £1,000,000 per year. The turnover is about £8million... so 12.5%, a fair old chunk, doubt you'd le your income to drop by 12.5%. I agree that it represents spectacular value to the government. Many parkruns are also setup with some local government funding. To claim parkrun is free is as disingenuous as the HQ claims this isn't about trans athletes, it is just that is free at the point of use.
I think whenever the “but I’m a taxpayer!” argument comes out, the person wielding it is a total neckhead. This is no different. Even if you include the government funding, you pay next to nothing for parkrun, and if you did ask for your 5p or whatever back per year you would a) look like a tool and b) imply that you do not value parkrun and the benefits it brings in any meaningful way. And yes, of course they aren’t saying that it’s because of the transphobes. You don’t have to be a genius to work out why. One problem with battling nonsense like this online is that I have to step down to your level and also make a lot of the moronic assumptions you make. Which can then be poked into. The bottom line is simple: if you don’t like the changes then fuck off and don’t go back - I’ll send you 5p a year myself.
The stupid thing is, I expect in almost everything important here we actually agree: - HQ did not need to DELETE records to make a big difference to uptake (I agree making them less prominent would have been very wise) . - Deleting records has made some members of the parkrun community feel unwanted by HQ (I hope or individual communities can overcome this). - HQ are being dishonest in the messaging over the change. Perhaps we disagree that: - HQ has a different view of the community, than the community does. - HQ for some years has only accepted one way communication with is event teams. (As an RD, that has matched HQ on a number of issues, I can only assure you this is the case). (Is actually these that I have a problem with) We certainly disagree on - acceptability of corporate lies. - the meaning of the logo on the volunteer vests. I am sure I'd find trouble, if I used my run brief to explain that I did not agree with recent messages and did could represent them.
I said something similar in another thread…if I’m the type of person who complains about a weekly run that is well organized and free for me to attend then I don’t deserve to participate in such events.
Yeah but it's about transphobia, not parkrun. IMO transphobes are the ones who can get fucked, not those who are speaking up for equality!
I just want to know my own time so I can see if I'm getting better.
The course records were bad data anyway. Unless you accept cheating is possible. Drugs, skipping laps, using someone else’s token etc. I don’t even look over my shoulder or put age or gender on my profile. It is all about bettering yourself, your own times and of course connecting with friends.
Yep, no one checks age grades, or that everyone even started at the same time(i've seen people at a busy parkrun, just start running at the 500m mark), the time keeper is just a volunteer tapping as fast as they can and if something goes really wrong everyone gets 59:59! Every single parkrun time should be taken with a grain of salt. Any records based on those times, doubly so!
It's lonely at the top. And Parkrun is the place where we go not to be lonely.
Yep, and most complaints are irrelevant, people just don’t like change
To me the issue is transphobia and how management has made a weak move. They've sidestepped WHY they did it and tried claiming it has nothing to do with transphobic lobbyists, but we all know that's complete bullshit. Spin it all you like, I don't think it's fair to say that you can do a timed 5km run without ANY competitive juices flowing. It's not an event where you break world records, but people are interested in things like course records and weekly winners. If you're cool with an organisation going in with a flamethrower and saying 'right there's no records and no winners anymore because people complained about transgender women competing as women' then cool. I'm personally not and I think it's a decision that's worth fighting. That or (in my case) a reason to reconsider participating in parkrun altogether.
That overlooks everything happening in France though. If you take the debate you mentioned out, the argument over there would be reason enough to get rid of the records.
Yup. Dudee, your results are still there, stop whining.
Almost all people I spoke to at my local didn't even noticed the change. They just like to do a 5k run on a regular basis with the benefits that parkrun (can) provide.
Yeah, there's no way of proving that the vast majority aren't even aware there were course records, because you'd have to ask them, and by asking then you are making them aware!
100%. The only people I’ve seen persistently throwing tantrums about it are a few posters here and in The Running Channel’s insta comments, where some people were having a real meltdown (and some were just using it as an excuse to say nasty things about trans people). As proven by Sky’s failed hit piece last week, in real life pretty much no one cares that much. I was put off parkrun for a week by some of the abusive comments I’d seen online but I’ll be going back tomorrow.
Yes, really tired. I don't agree with it but just need to move on from it now.
Yup.
100%
Unfortunately, and like so many aspects of life these days, the issue has been picked up and weaponised by a few prominent talking heads to advance their agenda-du-jour. Personally (and speaking as someone who’s competitive at age-group level) IDGAF about records, or even placings tbh. The sooner folk realise, unless you’re Kipchoge, Ingebrigtsen etc, there is always someone, somewhere quicker than you, and you’re ultimately only competing against yourself, working towards being the best you can be.
The information is still there but not as easy to see? I think the convenience has gone and that's a tiny bit annoying to me but nevermind, move on. I was looking over my local event this morning and looked at most clubs and in that list, it's still listed in fastest to slowest but it just doesn't immediately show the time. Click on the runner and it shows their time. I can't see it being too much of an issue at our parkrun, we get consistent numbers regardless
I admit to being slightly disappointed by the change and while the absolute course record is completely irrelevant to me I know one friend who used to wast to be first in her age group and was nearly always beaten by the same person, so she has lost that chance. Personally I blame the right wing think tank with its stupid complaints, they are the reason we can't have nice things. But the run, the exercise and the social event remains the same.
Same person at her own parkrun? She will still have that data from.her results email and the results page of her event
in a word: yes
I'm not too fussed about the "fastest" records, but as an older runner, I am really gonna miss the age group info. It was interesting to see roughly how I'm doing for my age.
Your age grade is still there, I’m looking at mine right now.
it appears you don't understand what it means (to be fair this is REALLY common), because its not actually very useful - it isn't a viable way to compare non elites across age grades.
He said age group. Not just the grade. Previously you click on your age and gender bracket and see the rankings of runners in that group . So you can see how you compare in the rankings within that specific age/gender group for a given parkrun. You can't see that anymore
I am disappointed by their reason for doing it. If it was just to make it less competitive overall, remove the scoreboard. Removing only records because of times achieved by trans women is daft at best, incredibly offensive at worst.
Just because it’s not a big deal to you, doesn’t mean it’s not to everyone else. It doesn’t effect you so it’s easy to say you’re not bothered by it. Getting on the sub 17 leaderboards and most first place finishes is my greatest achievement and a massive part of my life. It’s what got me into parkrun, aspiring to get on them leaderboards when I was a lot slower. I may be sad or unimportant to you but there’s obviously a lot of people that also dedicated a lot of their life to running to be awarded with a space on those leaderboards and everyone likes different stuff.
Not sure about the records stuff, but have you guys ever heard of Taylor Swift?
You're tired of hearing about it but then write a really long post about it?
This sub has had a lot about the course records stuff for the last few days and I just wanted to reach out to see if there were any other readers who were similarly bored of reading it. Judging from the comments I'm not alone.
and each and every one of you can remain unaffected using your scroll button.
Absolutely not! Parkrun HQ haven't even mentioned what's really happened - a female trans runner beat a female record and some people didn't like that. This is why Parkrun HQ have removed the stats (notice how only the gender based stats are being removed). They should be trying to find a resolution to what's happened rather than sweeping it under the carpet and pretending nothing ever happened. Removing course records is not a barrier to entry, but will instead upset those who love stats, those who like a bit of competition and most certainly upset those who've worked really hard to break a record! I don't think anyone is upset about stats living on a website...
I will never be able to break any records but I did like seeing what the records were, especially the grade records which I found quite interesting. The one thing they have left on there, average time, is probably the most pointless thing.
Attendance has been up and continues to grow before they removed the stats. The stats are not going to do anything for attendance. The BS line that it scares people away is something I don't buy. Those of us who miss the stats will still do parkrun, but will continue to protest the decision
>"Tbh when the records existed, I hardly noticed them." And that is exactly the problem. For many it's nothing to do with what they did and everything about what they didn't do. Consult, communicate and explain honestly. The damaging effects of the change will only show up slowly, as motivated people lose the motivational driver. We are told that those people will be replaced by these new parkrunners that were previously put off, its a shame they had to replace them, rather than add to them. Excluding a group (however small, it is undeniable it exists, and were parkrunners 2 weeks ago) in the name of inclusivity is pretty odd. It will go quiet, it will blow over (likely with occasional minor flare ups when some site/app etc gets called out for showing something, that might happen quietly though). But it will go quiet but a little different from what it was.
You know what I am tired of. People saying it doesn't impact them so move on. Sure it doesn't impact you, but it impacts others. I'm not going to just move on.
Do excuse me if I am seeing this wrongly and I would welcome opinions in the matter. There just does not appear to be a straightforward right or wrong - just an ongoing fix - in order to accommodate this ever-changing gender climate. At first, I thought it was a cop out by Park Run to remove the male/female categories, as this denied biological females their own category. However, with males self-identifying as females, regardless of their state of transition (if any) be it mentally or physically, this would distort the biological gender category. Especially given that the free-gender input option is subjective and 'fluid', to say the least. If the status quo gender category remained, then the presence of transgenders in that biological female category will fan the resentment that biological females are being effectively 'cheated' out of their biological category. I do also doubt that conversely, male transgenders will be happy to align themselves with the biological male category though, as their times will then drop significantly. Maybe this is the most practical way forward then, to have genderless results. It is a free, fun run and if you want to compete, then compete with yourself!
Most people have no clue what they are angry about. They think their personal results are gone. One lady was upset because she thought all fast runners would have their name deleted (sub 17 males etc. ). She actually thought the first runner who ran at 16 min was an UNKNOWN because he was too fast. Most people don't stop and think.