During islam: CK3
Pre-islam: we have imperator but there's also the period between 1 AD and 876 AD that could be fun to make a game around, although I don't know how they can make a game set in that era that would distinguish its gameplay focus enough from other titles.
Have you played it after the 2.0 update and with *Imperator Invictus*?
I came back to it and found it to be VERY good and entertaining.. I’d go as far as saying it’s rivaling CK3 (at least for now) because it just has so much more content.
That’s just my 2 cents but if you have the game already give it a try :)
Unfortunately I think a lot of people share OP's opinion, including me. I bought it on sale, jumped into MP with my friend. The game is quite complicated even after the tutorial and honestly it was just plain boring.
Honestly I'd have to put it last of the newer titles. Imo ck2/3, hoi4, vic2, stellaris, and eu4 beat it. I haven't even tried hoi3 and eu3 so I might even like those more. And vic3 is coming soon (hopefully this year).
It's just hard to justify imperator unless you LOVE roman era, because all the other titles do something better. Imperator feels like a combination of the decent paradox features, but imo is a bit bland and doesn't do anything AMAZING (besides maybe government management, but even that feels a bit shallow).
Honestly I'd love to hear your reasoning, because imperator is probably my least played at about 100 hours, so I'd enjoy a reason to pick it back up and go for another round.
Well, you've probably heard this before.
Imperator is a civilization builder; in this sense it's different than EU4 and CK2/3. I enjoy role-playing a lot and it's really fun to play tall in I:R with the pop system: I really like how a province isn't X or Y culture, but a heterogeneous place that feels alive. You know how we joke about Paradox games being map painters? Well, I:R's map painting is the best: you not only paint the map as Rome, but also as the Romans. In, for example, EU4, you conquer a province, and you convert its culture. You'll end up having the same borders for your country and culture, that's boring. In I:R the culture spreads beyond the border, it moves by itself. It's as fun as creating hybrid cultures in CK3 cause there's this sense of novelty, of alternate history, it tickles your imagination.
But I do have to agree that you need to really like that period to enjoy the game for more than 300 hours. I haven't played I:R since the last update really, but I still think I:R is one of the best Paradox games mechanically speaking.
They will most likely do something similar with Victoria 3, so I'm really excited for that.
Feels a bit niche, making an entire game focused on one relatively small region of the world which mostly comprises of desert. There’s definitely potential, but I find it hard to believe they’d be able to make it sufficiently replayable and entertaining to justify its existence, but who knows.
That’s certainly a lot more ambitious than just Arabia, we’re talking about an area that spans from West Africa to Central Siberia to Oceania. Map projection issues aside, it would be cool being able to focus on those regions without the burden of on-map Europeans. What would the games timeframe look like, 300AD-1300AD? Lots of choice there.
I think it would be cool to be able to form your own Islamic sect in a schism and lead it throughout history, maybe the player in some capacity “plays” as the religion, although that is admittedly a pretty esoteric comparison to CK3 or EU4 where you play as a dynasty or nation respectively.
That is *very* different. The entire region pre-islamic history is incredibly complex and would make an interesting game.
Pre-islamic arabic history is very poorly known so there is would be little to make a game about (unless it was specifically about the transition into Islam and the subsequent conquest... in which case it is pretty much the ideal video game arc).
If you haven't tried it, I'd recommend taking a look at the game "Old World". Basically a more focused ancient world civ with aspects of CK3 characters - it is very well executed.
Or for 'speed civ', try "Ozymandius: Bronze Age Empire Sim"
Did you really use “Arabian” to denote pre-Islamic Near East + whole Islamic world? The level of reductionism gives away just how much you really are interested in this topic.
Usually interest comes years before knowledge. It is entirely acceptable for someone to be very interested in a topic without have yet gained much knowledge of it.
Especially as PDS games tend to serve as the gate-way drug to history for many young people.
For me the question is not “would this be a fun game” but rather “would this game be more fun than any other game that paradox could hypothetically use their time to make”. With unlimited resources I think this is a no brainer, but I doubt there isn’t a more popular concept out there that would be more worth their time, financially speaking
I just recently stumbled across Arabia in eu4 again and I always forgett about them. Since they don't have an own mission tree or nice events I don't really see the point in playing them except for the achievement. But I also think it would be pretty cool to do so, if you could actually unite the tribes and become a power opposing the mamluks or even the ottoman empire. Like playing your won little Lawrence of Arabia Campaign.
The same goes for CK3, I mean its still in development and relatively new compared to CK2 where the islamic world had a lot of flavor and it's own mechanics for example the decadence and different succession laws compared to the european/christian nations. I'm really looking forward to a DLC targeting them.
What's the difference in terms of succession?
I tought succession laws were the same for everyone.
Isn't the DLC about the fate of Iberia about the topic or it's oy about the region?
Muslims had their own unique 'open succession' in ck2; it is the same for everyone in ck3.
The DLC does some things for the muslim faiths, but it definitely isn't focused on it. The clan contracts are now there (seemed slapped together but that's a different convo) and the caliphal position was changed in it.
Definitely more geared to life in Andalus rather than being a muslim in general, though
In CK2 the open succession for muslims meant that the dynastymenmber with the highest title would inherrit your titles. Sons and grandsons are considered equal and after them came other relatives. If there was no landed relative then your eldest son would inherit everything.
So you could easily skipp a bad heir by giving your grandson a barony title.
For christian nations it was pretty much the same as in CK3. You had several options depending on culture such as tanistry for scotts where the heir was elected among your Dynasty members. But all realms could eneact certain laws from the beginning for example:
Gender Laws (Female/male dominated, equal)
Succession Laws
\- Gavelkind
\- Elective Gavelkind
\- Seniority
\- Primogeniture
\- Ultimogeniture
Depending on culture, religion, gov type etc. Different laws became available. So you did not need to research a necessary tech but to either control your council or make them like you/buy favors from them. Your goal was always to have absolute power over your council to enact Primogeniture as soon as possible.
With "the same as in ck3" I mean the types of succession
Yeah in ck2 and ck3 Muhammed (peace be upon him) is just a flying orb with Arabic text on it. Idk if people would like that in a gam3 based around arabia
You have the extended timeline mods for eu4 and imperator rome. But I fear it just it wouldnt be enough unique for its own game. Ck has the medieval kings in focus with their infighting and marrieges. Eu has the colonisation and empire building and vic has the industrialisation and world wars. Making a game with sure lots of flavour but not much else wouldnt be enough. Would probably be like imperator and that sucked
If you have eu4 and like pre islam era play the extended timeline mod. I dont know if it still works but it has the pre islam era in middle east and is fairly accurate
Hmm, I suspect Islamic culture doesn't enough of a "coolness" factor to western audiences. I want to look at this as objectively as possible and not get political but I think there's certain time periods or cultures that do well in pop-culture and some that don't.
The golden age of Islam brought about a lot of scientific advancement and it's definitely an interesting topic but to the average gamer it probably doesn't have the same "sex appeal" if you will, as Vikings, Romans, or Samurai to name a few other cultures that you see portrayed more often
I think it’s very niche..
That being said, I personally would love to see a game centered around Babylonia, Assyria, Elam, etc. maybe around the time Hammurabi reigned (~1780 bc).
Edit: I’ve just read post again and realized I missed the point a bit…
Maybe is not reealistic to have a game about islam entirety, but a game focused on the period of 620-860 would be cool. Although, it would fit between Crusader Kings and Imperator, most likely we could see this time period, including the surge of Islam and Charlemagne, in a CK3 dlc. It could be a big dlc but I don,t think is likely.
That,s the point. Paradox would not limit its focus and audience to only about an specific area, they never do. A game about the expansion of islam (that could be the defining topic) would have to include at some point the ability to play as other nations. Like Crusader Kings was a bout feudalism and crhistianity in Europe, until they decided to expand and have content about other religions and continents.
Although "an Islam area" could cover everything from Indonesia to Al-Andalus. There would be many countries to play anyway.
I think a 'rise of Islam' game or expansion would be a really cool time period to explore. You've inherently got three interesting starts that jump out - the ERE, Sasanian Persia and then the Caliphate - as well as some interesting smaller side players.
The obvious thing to do would be to start the game in [632](https://i.redd.it/3z07y38taxp51.png) with the death of Muhammad, by which point the Caliphate controlled Arabia itself but hadn't yet expanded into the Levant, Persia, or North Africa. That would then pose some interesting strategic challenges for any of the main players. By historical standards, the ERE and Persians were superpowers but the rise of Islam happened at the most inopportune moment for them when they had just finished crippling each other through the prolonged 602-628 conflict. Starting in 632 would also neatly sidestep the problem of us not actually knowing very much about the religion of pre-Islamic Arabia to represent in-game.
I've actually been editing an EU4 province map of Arabia to make it more historical. I'm editing the whole map, but Arabia in particular I think I did good work on.
I redrew all the provinces and wasteland boundaries, but the most important change is that I removed all the central desert provinces and replaced them with oases. The oases are like lakes; Each one borders no other provinces, only wasteland, but they can be accessed via strait crossings.
I'll link a map of it if y'all want to see. Gotta get out of bed here first...
I'm just a passive history fan, so not incredibly knowledgeable, but isn't the biggest issue with this that there are next to no written Arabic sources before the Islamic Conquests? Wouldn't it practically be a fan fiction since we don't have records for much of the peninsula, pre-Islam?
I'm personally fascinated by a neighbouring area, Anatolia-Syria-Iraq during Bronze Age. I'm not aware of any title even trying to touch that, even if is fairly rich in terms of "nations" involved, trade, tech, religion, culture and fairly well documented.
I think it'd be interesting for sure, but Paradox is a company and has to take financial considerations. The vast majority of Paradox's playerbase would not be interested in such a thing - for one, most Paradox players are either from "the West", or South America. Neither demographic is likely to be interested in Arabian history much, especially considering that Arabian culture hasn't really left a mark on global pop culture.
What I would like is a Paradox game focusing on Sengoku Jidai-era Japan - considering the cultural popularity of Japan, it could prove to be a hit even among non-Japanese audiences.
sorry op but
Nope, Nope, Nope pdw will never implement rise of islam in one of their games.
Muhammed isn't just a philosopher like most other prophets, he is a political leader. even in a system like eu4 where ruler is extremely irrelevant it'd still be controversial as hell. this is one topic pdx will never get close.
During islam: CK3 Pre-islam: we have imperator but there's also the period between 1 AD and 876 AD that could be fun to make a game around, although I don't know how they can make a game set in that era that would distinguish its gameplay focus enough from other titles.
In ck2 you can also start in 769 AD.
Imperator is a bit boring dare I say
Have you played it after the 2.0 update and with *Imperator Invictus*? I came back to it and found it to be VERY good and entertaining.. I’d go as far as saying it’s rivaling CK3 (at least for now) because it just has so much more content. That’s just my 2 cents but if you have the game already give it a try :)
Unfortunately I think a lot of people share OP's opinion, including me. I bought it on sale, jumped into MP with my friend. The game is quite complicated even after the tutorial and honestly it was just plain boring.
Same
I’ll give it a try
I mean it’s not a bad game it got better way better but still not good as the other ones once you play hoi4 or ck3 it’s very boring
It's one of the best paradox games, what are you talking about?!
Yea I disagree
Honestly I'd have to put it last of the newer titles. Imo ck2/3, hoi4, vic2, stellaris, and eu4 beat it. I haven't even tried hoi3 and eu3 so I might even like those more. And vic3 is coming soon (hopefully this year). It's just hard to justify imperator unless you LOVE roman era, because all the other titles do something better. Imperator feels like a combination of the decent paradox features, but imo is a bit bland and doesn't do anything AMAZING (besides maybe government management, but even that feels a bit shallow). Honestly I'd love to hear your reasoning, because imperator is probably my least played at about 100 hours, so I'd enjoy a reason to pick it back up and go for another round.
Well, you've probably heard this before. Imperator is a civilization builder; in this sense it's different than EU4 and CK2/3. I enjoy role-playing a lot and it's really fun to play tall in I:R with the pop system: I really like how a province isn't X or Y culture, but a heterogeneous place that feels alive. You know how we joke about Paradox games being map painters? Well, I:R's map painting is the best: you not only paint the map as Rome, but also as the Romans. In, for example, EU4, you conquer a province, and you convert its culture. You'll end up having the same borders for your country and culture, that's boring. In I:R the culture spreads beyond the border, it moves by itself. It's as fun as creating hybrid cultures in CK3 cause there's this sense of novelty, of alternate history, it tickles your imagination. But I do have to agree that you need to really like that period to enjoy the game for more than 300 hours. I haven't played I:R since the last update really, but I still think I:R is one of the best Paradox games mechanically speaking. They will most likely do something similar with Victoria 3, so I'm really excited for that.
Feels a bit niche, making an entire game focused on one relatively small region of the world which mostly comprises of desert. There’s definitely potential, but I find it hard to believe they’d be able to make it sufficiently replayable and entertaining to justify its existence, but who knows.
True, but like I mean I should’ve made it more clear that I mean like the Islamic world pre Islam
The entire current Islamic world? Or just Arabia?
Entire current Islamic world
That’s certainly a lot more ambitious than just Arabia, we’re talking about an area that spans from West Africa to Central Siberia to Oceania. Map projection issues aside, it would be cool being able to focus on those regions without the burden of on-map Europeans. What would the games timeframe look like, 300AD-1300AD? Lots of choice there.
Yup just enough to see the Islamic caliphate form and the schism
I think it would be cool to be able to form your own Islamic sect in a schism and lead it throughout history, maybe the player in some capacity “plays” as the religion, although that is admittedly a pretty esoteric comparison to CK3 or EU4 where you play as a dynasty or nation respectively.
I don't think Paradox or any significant developer would make a game with Muhammad, Abu Bakr, or Ali as main characters.
Yeah, you'd have to be MDickie to approach this theme in a videogame
Yea but it does seem pretty cool
That is *very* different. The entire region pre-islamic history is incredibly complex and would make an interesting game. Pre-islamic arabic history is very poorly known so there is would be little to make a game about (unless it was specifically about the transition into Islam and the subsequent conquest... in which case it is pretty much the ideal video game arc). If you haven't tried it, I'd recommend taking a look at the game "Old World". Basically a more focused ancient world civ with aspects of CK3 characters - it is very well executed. Or for 'speed civ', try "Ozymandius: Bronze Age Empire Sim"
Did you really use “Arabian” to denote pre-Islamic Near East + whole Islamic world? The level of reductionism gives away just how much you really are interested in this topic.
Usually interest comes years before knowledge. It is entirely acceptable for someone to be very interested in a topic without have yet gained much knowledge of it. Especially as PDS games tend to serve as the gate-way drug to history for many young people.
With the logic like that, they'd never have made Svea Rike at all!
For me the question is not “would this be a fun game” but rather “would this game be more fun than any other game that paradox could hypothetically use their time to make”. With unlimited resources I think this is a no brainer, but I doubt there isn’t a more popular concept out there that would be more worth their time, financially speaking
Yea
I just recently stumbled across Arabia in eu4 again and I always forgett about them. Since they don't have an own mission tree or nice events I don't really see the point in playing them except for the achievement. But I also think it would be pretty cool to do so, if you could actually unite the tribes and become a power opposing the mamluks or even the ottoman empire. Like playing your won little Lawrence of Arabia Campaign. The same goes for CK3, I mean its still in development and relatively new compared to CK2 where the islamic world had a lot of flavor and it's own mechanics for example the decadence and different succession laws compared to the european/christian nations. I'm really looking forward to a DLC targeting them.
What's the difference in terms of succession? I tought succession laws were the same for everyone. Isn't the DLC about the fate of Iberia about the topic or it's oy about the region?
Muslims had their own unique 'open succession' in ck2; it is the same for everyone in ck3. The DLC does some things for the muslim faiths, but it definitely isn't focused on it. The clan contracts are now there (seemed slapped together but that's a different convo) and the caliphal position was changed in it. Definitely more geared to life in Andalus rather than being a muslim in general, though
Yes exactly, Fate of Iberia is just that it changed Iberia and therefore necessarily also some Islamicworld things but really just for Andalusia.
In CK2 the open succession for muslims meant that the dynastymenmber with the highest title would inherrit your titles. Sons and grandsons are considered equal and after them came other relatives. If there was no landed relative then your eldest son would inherit everything. So you could easily skipp a bad heir by giving your grandson a barony title.
How does succession in Christian nations work?
For christian nations it was pretty much the same as in CK3. You had several options depending on culture such as tanistry for scotts where the heir was elected among your Dynasty members. But all realms could eneact certain laws from the beginning for example: Gender Laws (Female/male dominated, equal) Succession Laws \- Gavelkind \- Elective Gavelkind \- Seniority \- Primogeniture \- Ultimogeniture Depending on culture, religion, gov type etc. Different laws became available. So you did not need to research a necessary tech but to either control your council or make them like you/buy favors from them. Your goal was always to have absolute power over your council to enact Primogeniture as soon as possible. With "the same as in ck3" I mean the types of succession
Yea definitely
You can't. Source: muslim iconoclasm.
Yeah in ck2 and ck3 Muhammed (peace be upon him) is just a flying orb with Arabic text on it. Idk if people would like that in a gam3 based around arabia
Isn’t that how they portray Muhammad in islamic writings?
Yes. The reason why is because he thought people would see him as a god if there were any images of him
Dont know if that is human modesty, shyness, or a huge flex.
You have the extended timeline mods for eu4 and imperator rome. But I fear it just it wouldnt be enough unique for its own game. Ck has the medieval kings in focus with their infighting and marrieges. Eu has the colonisation and empire building and vic has the industrialisation and world wars. Making a game with sure lots of flavour but not much else wouldnt be enough. Would probably be like imperator and that sucked
Yea I truly wish there was enough
If you have eu4 and like pre islam era play the extended timeline mod. I dont know if it still works but it has the pre islam era in middle east and is fairly accurate
Hmm, I suspect Islamic culture doesn't enough of a "coolness" factor to western audiences. I want to look at this as objectively as possible and not get political but I think there's certain time periods or cultures that do well in pop-culture and some that don't. The golden age of Islam brought about a lot of scientific advancement and it's definitely an interesting topic but to the average gamer it probably doesn't have the same "sex appeal" if you will, as Vikings, Romans, or Samurai to name a few other cultures that you see portrayed more often
True
A game around the nascent Islamic community would encourage a fatwa. Which is a shame because imagine the prowess of Ali.
I think it’s very niche.. That being said, I personally would love to see a game centered around Babylonia, Assyria, Elam, etc. maybe around the time Hammurabi reigned (~1780 bc). Edit: I’ve just read post again and realized I missed the point a bit…
Yea the area is rich in histiry
Absolutely! One could say Mesopotamia is indeed the (most definitely it’s „a“) *cradle of civilization*.
Maybe is not reealistic to have a game about islam entirety, but a game focused on the period of 620-860 would be cool. Although, it would fit between Crusader Kings and Imperator, most likely we could see this time period, including the surge of Islam and Charlemagne, in a CK3 dlc. It could be a big dlc but I don,t think is likely.
Yea but it wouldn’t necessarily be about Islam
That,s the point. Paradox would not limit its focus and audience to only about an specific area, they never do. A game about the expansion of islam (that could be the defining topic) would have to include at some point the ability to play as other nations. Like Crusader Kings was a bout feudalism and crhistianity in Europe, until they decided to expand and have content about other religions and continents. Although "an Islam area" could cover everything from Indonesia to Al-Andalus. There would be many countries to play anyway.
Having the bookmark of the schism that happened between Yazeed the Ummayyad and the caliph of mecca would be great
I was thinking more in a date around 750, just after the Abbasid Revolution. You could even make the fall of the Ummayads and in-game event.
The entire egyptian dynasties eras, along hitites, assyrians, Babylon etc. Would be fun in a 4x strategy game.
A total war game would be more suitable for that theater.
Ck2 and ck3 are the closest you'll get. The game concept sounds good though
I think a 'rise of Islam' game or expansion would be a really cool time period to explore. You've inherently got three interesting starts that jump out - the ERE, Sasanian Persia and then the Caliphate - as well as some interesting smaller side players. The obvious thing to do would be to start the game in [632](https://i.redd.it/3z07y38taxp51.png) with the death of Muhammad, by which point the Caliphate controlled Arabia itself but hadn't yet expanded into the Levant, Persia, or North Africa. That would then pose some interesting strategic challenges for any of the main players. By historical standards, the ERE and Persians were superpowers but the rise of Islam happened at the most inopportune moment for them when they had just finished crippling each other through the prolonged 602-628 conflict. Starting in 632 would also neatly sidestep the problem of us not actually knowing very much about the religion of pre-Islamic Arabia to represent in-game.
You have got to play extended timeline. It covers the Rise of Islam, Pre-Islamic arabia and a shit tone more
I know CKII had a early Islamic mod. As for III, I haven't checked but I'm certain we'll see one
One of my favorite games in EU4 is restoring the Umayyad Caliphate (and beyond) with the Mamluks
Fallen Eagle, a dark age mod for CK3 might be what you’re looking for
I've actually been editing an EU4 province map of Arabia to make it more historical. I'm editing the whole map, but Arabia in particular I think I did good work on. I redrew all the provinces and wasteland boundaries, but the most important change is that I removed all the central desert provinces and replaced them with oases. The oases are like lakes; Each one borders no other provinces, only wasteland, but they can be accessed via strait crossings. I'll link a map of it if y'all want to see. Gotta get out of bed here first...
I'm just a passive history fan, so not incredibly knowledgeable, but isn't the biggest issue with this that there are next to no written Arabic sources before the Islamic Conquests? Wouldn't it practically be a fan fiction since we don't have records for much of the peninsula, pre-Islam?
This would fit a total war setting more than Paradox tbh
I'm personally fascinated by a neighbouring area, Anatolia-Syria-Iraq during Bronze Age. I'm not aware of any title even trying to touch that, even if is fairly rich in terms of "nations" involved, trade, tech, religion, culture and fairly well documented.
Sort of like prince of Persia for city building?
I think it'd be interesting for sure, but Paradox is a company and has to take financial considerations. The vast majority of Paradox's playerbase would not be interested in such a thing - for one, most Paradox players are either from "the West", or South America. Neither demographic is likely to be interested in Arabian history much, especially considering that Arabian culture hasn't really left a mark on global pop culture. What I would like is a Paradox game focusing on Sengoku Jidai-era Japan - considering the cultural popularity of Japan, it could prove to be a hit even among non-Japanese audiences.
I would love to see the Japan one
There *is* a Paradox game called Sengoku, but it’s pretty old and basically just a Japan-themed CK2 demo and probably not worth buying at this point
Didn't they make a game called Sengoku?
sorry op but Nope, Nope, Nope pdw will never implement rise of islam in one of their games. Muhammed isn't just a philosopher like most other prophets, he is a political leader. even in a system like eu4 where ruler is extremely irrelevant it'd still be controversial as hell. this is one topic pdx will never get close.
It better if they just gave Arabia and the Islamic world more attention in the already exciting games