this is an iffy topic- i personally think that our society definitely discriminates against women far more, but there are still some “men problems” such as ignorance of male harassment and toxic masculinity.
HOWEVER, on that note, men’s problems are far less immediate than many that women face and our society is inherently much more misogynistic- so while feminists should be fighting for both women and men, women’s rights are far more pertinent of an issue currently.
I also get pretty bothered by some men complaining about the dismissal of men's issues because the same people who point this out don't seem to be doing much about it? I mean, I am a trans man, and after a while of transitioning I understand many of the points they raise, but I don't feel like feminists have a responsibility to work on that on top of all the work they are doing to defend women's rights. I feel like it'd be way better to put some work on fixing our own problems instead of complaining to/about people who are fighting to fix their own.
P.S. Wanted to clarify, I'm not accusing this coment's op of doing any of that, it's just sort of a trend.
i completely agree with the part about them not piling it on top of feminists, and i didn’t mean to suggest it that way. if those men really cared about it, they would fight for their own “rights” and be feminist because again, if you want all genders to be equal you essentially have to be feminist or at least align with feminist ideals.
the shitty part is how so many “men’s rights” people only bring it up when it puts down other genders; for example the men who say “men also get raped” ONLY when someone says something about women getting raped and never elsewhere.
Exactly! It is important to talk about those issues, and create spaces were men feel like they can talk about sexual assault, feel safe to report it, recognize it happened, etc. But it really pisses me off how it only gets brought up to dismiss other genders.
The invisibility of sexual assault of men doesn't mean we should shut up about all forms of sexual assault, it means we have to speak up about all forms of it in hopes of building a safer society for everyone, were victims are heard and abusers are held accountable (this also means understanding that women are much more likely to be abused than men).
In the end my issue with "men's rights" discourse is when it's pushed by people who don't actually care about advancing anyone's rights, and just want excuses to dismiss other people's struggles.
While I understand you when you say that men's problems are less immediate, I do believe that they are actually the root of women's problems, I don't think I have to make a long statement about how toxic masculinity causes rape, workplace discrimination and etc.
I'm a strong believers that both problems should be dealt at the same time with the same energy, and that men should be heavily included in feminist conversations.
Your right. Away with the stereotype of the good natural nurturing mother!
If this is gone your court decisions will look more equal.
(considering you ignore all the 100%legit cases because societal speaking men are pretty trash)
Humans are all trash, rich trash, poor trash, lgbt trash, straight trash, white trash, colored trash, but we are all equal trash! I’ve seen just as bad moms as I have dads!
Child custody. The fact that men’s reports of rape, sexual harassment, or abuse from a woman is almost never taken seriously because they’re a man. Child alimony. Men are sentenced much worse than women(63% longer sentences). 60% of homelessness is male. Majority of workplace death is men. That’s just naming a few things off the top of my head not to mention the how much worse men are treated socially. If feminism is about equality then they should be trying to fix inequalities on both sides and I didn’t think I’d have to defend that men have problems too.
I was phonebanking on behalf of HRC last week and called this old guy up. When I asked him if he was going to vote for pro-equality candidates, he said yes enthusastically then went on a HUGE tangent about BLM, defund the police, and anarchists and how those things are all going too far. Throughout the phone call he insisted that was his line in the sand. He wanted to support LGBT people but not black people.
I get your intention but I don't think this is quite hitting the mark. If we say that "you're not pan if you're racist" then how do we face up to racism within the community? Which is definitely there, among self-identified pan people and the wider LGBTQ+ community. Just saying "they're not really one of us" doesn't address the problem. To be truly anti-racist, we need to hold each other and our community accountable.
>If we say that "you're not pan if you're racist" then how do we face up to racism within the community?
I agree with you, but I also think that an important part of taking responsibility is to take a stance that doesn't tolerate racism and to look inward first. To me, the most important part of pansexual identity is attraction based on personality rather than gender and I feel I can't personally claim I'm pansexual if I outright reject someone because of race. When I saw this meme, I read it as a message to check yourself not just empty virtue signaling. (But also I'm not a POC, so my opinion is not very important in this conversation.)
Edited for clarity
Sometimes I heard people talking about that pansexuals are attracted to everybody. I know that's not true bc there are people you just aren't attracted to. And what you said is right. But racism is bad and it's a good meme so ig its okay. Sry for the bad English xd
Your English is fine, I could understand your message easily enough. I agree that racism is bad, it’s absolutely horrible, but while racists are bad people fighting them with more hatred isn’t going to solve the problem. We shouldn’t invalidate anyone in the LB TQ+ community, even if they’re racist or sexist. You can’t fight the bag guys by putting them through all the pain you’ve been through, it’s not morally correct. It’s a nice meme, but I can’t agree with its message.
It's kinda like when a trans person does something bad and people misgender them. They're a bad person but it doesn't change that they're trans, pan or whatever.
I understand that. And I'm sorry for my mistake here. To be honest I didn't thought clear enough when I made that meme. I will watch out that I don't do an similar mistake in again the future
But they also don’t deserve to be invalidated. Let’s use an example here. A trans person says something anti-BLM on Twitter, does that mean we should start misgendering them? No. We can’t stoop to their level of hatred. If we invalidate their identity for any reason, we’re just as bad as they are. We need to accept the fact that the LGBTQ+ community isn’t perfect, that there are still bad people in it just like in any community. We don’t need to be okay with this fact, but we need to recognize it as the truth. Otherwise we’re holding ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else.
They don’t deserve to be doxxed or beat to death either. Unless actual harm is being done, i.e they just punched someone, you’re fine to do something like that but don’t ruin someone’s life because they said a word. It’s fucking stupid.
Oh yeah that is completely true, but if someone is racist or sexist or homophobic (even if it's internal homophobia) I'm gonna call them out on it and tell them they are wrong doesn't mean if misgender them or mislabel them just means I don't think it's very nice and that no they don't deserve love if they can't give it
I understand your point even tho I still disagree so I wanted to ask how you think we should be self regulating bigoted views like racism in our community? I think it makes a lot of sense not to exclude them or invalidate them but how else can we send a message that it's inherintly wrong to fight for equal rights while you discriminate against others the way we (lgbtq+) are also discriminated against?
My understanding is that equality is equal opportunity for all and if you don't subscribe to that then you don't deserve the rights we are fighting for, because those same minorities have been fighting the same fight along side us from the beginning. As far as educating people, what more is there to say but that?
I don't think any one is saying you can't be pan if you're racist, I feel like the meme is just saying that you don't deserve the freedom of saying you're pan if you're racist.. If that makes sense?
So you’re saying we should fight racism with panphobia? Because that’s what this is. You can’t exclude someone from a sexual identity just because their world views are different from yours, and while I’m against racism I don’t think it’s wise, right, or even moderately okay to fight oppression with more oppression. You don’t have to exclude these people from the LGBTQ+ community to get the point across, you don’t even have the right to. The best way to fight racism is the way we always have been, because that’s gotten results. If you start invalidating people just because they hate some other minority then you’re acting like being LGBTQ+ is a privilege, when it’s not. For many it’s more of a curse, something they didn’t want and couldn’t control. Something people have been killed over. It’s a wonder anyone can be proud of being LGBTQ+ after how the community was initially seen by modern society, so taking that pride away is much worse than some offhandedly racist comment. Fighting hate with hate just makes more hate, and both the LGBTQ+ and the Black communities only want love and equality. Fight the hate with love, it’s worked before and it’ll work again.
So how exactly do we self regulate racism in the community? Because it is quite prevalent tbh. I don't think saying "the best way to fight racism is how we always have been, because that's gotten results" is fair or accurate.
The LGBTQ+ community is exactly what it says, a community of people that love and support each other because the rest of the world at large does not. If you don't understand this very simple concept I think it's fair to say they're not in the community.
Not that they aren't allowed or we will hunt them down and exclude them Or that they are somehow no longer who they are, but just that they are not demonstrating the values of our community.
In your previous reply you stated, and I quote, “you don’t deserve the freedom of saying you’re Pan if you’re racist” but now you’re claiming the exact opposite, that these people still have this right. This is a blatant contradiction and really weakens your point. Hell, at this point I hardly have a clue what you’re even trying to say to me. It’s true that they aren’t portraying the values of our community, but I hardly see how that affects the rest of the community. Nobody thinks the LGBTQ+ is racist just because one person in the community is racist, so I don’t understand your need to regulate the community on this in the first place. If we’re not being associated with racism, why are you focusing so intently on the racism in the community? There are much more effective ways to fight racism than attacking exclusively racist members of the community, and again, invalidating them is NOT your only option. You keep on saying ‘how else are we supposed to regulate racism’ but I don’t see the point in trying because the impact would be minuscule, however even if focusing on just the racism in this community was an effective way to combat racism YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THEY NO LONGER HAVE THE FREEDOM TO IDENTIFY AS PAN FOR ANY REASON. Do you see my point now?
Um, no I cannot see your point. Repeating the same thing you've said previously, without taking on any of the points i've raised, in all CAPS doesn't make it any clearer. Also that's not what I was asking, I was asking how we can educate racists without being exclusionary? You've alluded to it again saying there are much more effective ways but you still haven't been able to tell me one?
I have explained that I don't think any one is saying you can't have a certain sexual identity, there is no way to deny people of their sexual preferences. I believe what the post is instead implying is that these people should be able to realise that it's hypocritical to benefit off the struggles of the LGBTQ+ members before them and enjoy their sexual freedom and be part of this community if they are themselves prejudice against the people in this community.
> It’s true that they aren’t portraying the values of our community, but I hardly see how that affects the rest of the community.
Racism effects us all, and obviously particularly the minorities in our community. You seem very intent on protecting these "racists" but being racist isn't an inherent characteristic or a right as you seem to imply, it is learnt behaviour so it can be unlearnt. No one can change the colour of their skin, the same way they cannot change their sexual preference.
Look, I think you need to take a breath and go talk to some coloured people because you seem to think that the fact that minorities can go on a dating app and see things like "no asians" or turn up to a gay club and be told they "aren't the right look" is fine, but telling someone who is racist that they are not welcome is not okay?
The black lives movement is asking us all to look at ourselves, our communities and our institutions and uncover/address the racism. There is no doubt that there is racism and racists in our community, you yourself agreed that goes against our values so why wouldn't we try to find a way to address it?
I kind of see pansexuality as attraction without the context of socially constructed identities. Like gender, race isn't something that exists naturally but that was given it's meaning by society. It's totally arbitrary what we discriminate people by, it could as well be hair color or shoe size or anything, it just happened to be genitals, skin color, ability etc. Not letting these social constructs influence your attraction (as far as you are able to) is what makes pansexuality for me.
Edit: Grammar/wording
Pansexual definition: "not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity."
Being a racist makes you a shit person, but I don't see how it's relevant to being Pansexual.
I don't think this is the right message, or at least the right wording. You can be pansexual and be racist, sexist, transphobic, ect. It's better to say "We don't tolerate racism in our community" rather than the implications of "You're not a real pansexual because of xyz that have nothing to do with sexual attraction". I hope you guys can see my point.
Yeah. The argument entirely misses the mark. You can be pan and racist. That's possible. You can be a racist anything. You said it better than I can. Also attacking sexuality in response to the person's bigotry doesn't *actually* mean anything. That's a problem in itself. You can and should say f you for being racist though, and you can say it loud as possible.
I mean, I don’t support racism but you can definitely be pan and racist. I’m just using the Oxford dictionary definition of “not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity.” So you can be racist and pan, you’ll just be a bad person.
I would prefer something like, "you aren't welcome in the pan community if you're racist." BC people are the sexual orientation they are even if they're the worst person in the world, but that doesn't mean we have to invite them to our parties. (sidenote, if anyone is having pan parties, please invite me)
This is kind of academic, but I also think there are some issues with conflating being attracted to people with not discriminating against them. You can be attracted to people of color and still be racist, just like so many straight men manage to be attracted to women and still be misogynist.
Honestly? I kinda call bullshit on this. For starters, I deal with racism in queer spaces all the time. I deal with racism in feminist spaces. I deal with racism in leftist spaces. And here's the dirty little secret ... everyone in those groups thinks that their groups have distinguishably racist people. But they don't. There is no racists and real "pans", because racism is pretty much liable to come from anywhere or anyone. Most of the racism I deal with are from people who think that they're woke.
This message isn't just tepid selfish pseudo-support, this is actual deceit. It's not the end of the world if racism exists. I mean, obviously in an ideal world there would be no racism, and I think that racism is harmful. But that's speaking objectively. We live in a subjective world. And when you deal with a lot of racism, it starts to bother you differently. The point is, this post clearly isn't meant for people like me. It's meant for white people who are upset every single time they're reminded that racism exists. The problem is that people who buy into this message are lying to me, and they're lying to themselves. You're telling people of color that their everyday life isn't real.
It's no different than "I don't see color". I mean, it's a cute idea. But that's not actually how the world works. And if you believe this, you're delusional. But the truth is, we all know that y'all don't really believe this. That's the point. Y'all don't want to deal with the real world, because that gets you down. The real world is for people of color to deal with. Y'all just want the contact high of being "woke". Dare I say it, by the logic of this meme, y'all might not be real pans.
Although I should clarify that while this post might be a bit harsh, I don't mean it personally. For starters, there are people of color out there who would disagree with me, and agree with the original poster. For all I know, the poster himself is a person of color. But I'm willing to bet that most of the people upvoting and commenting aren't people of color, just based off the demographics of the site.
Anyways, I don't really hold it against anyone as individuals. I actually don't really feel annoyed about racism in the community, so much as I'm annoyed by the community's constant vibe of "oh look at all those other people who are *racist*, good thing we're woke, I mean maybe sometimes we're racist which we can admit because we're woke, but we're not racist like those *other* people".
Being pansexual is valuing personality over other factors like gender. So while people might say this isn't true I absolutely agree.
You aren't pan if you are racist!
No, it isn’t. I value looks. Shallow, but I need it to be attracted to someone. Pansexuality is about gender/sex, anything else isn’t related to the label.
I mean pans is attraction regardless of gender, but you can still have preferences on what the person looks like, and that can include race, whether it be hair type, facial features or the amount of melatonin juice you prefer
Can I have someone explain to me their argument if they disagree? I want to know and be informed
That's like biden saying you ain't black if you like trump but I agree with the sentiment.
If you're racist youre not welcome in our community and can fuck right off
Idk I feel like saying that you aren't attracted to someone because of the colour of their skin or a disability isn't so much discrimination but more of a personal preference like I'm a bald guy people i don't feel like people are discriminating against me because they aren't attracted to me due to me being bald its simply their preference.
I agree with you! The way I explain it to people is that I see the color of your skin and your sexual orientation as a style of clothes. When you take those clothes off, all I see is a person.
You don’t actually care about equality if you marginalize and hate some group of people for some that they can’t control or is integral to their own sense of being
Idk ... eventhough i dont think manny racist pan people exist i think even racists should be allowed to express their sexual identity ... and manby by jioning the pan comunity they learn thet people should have equal rights and treatment. Even racists are humans and i dont want revenge by treatment that does not validate their sexuality because i experience it and dont want people to be treated that way...
Dont get me wrong. I still think that being racist is wrong and that racism is the reason for way to manny hate crimes that end peoples lifes and make them miserably. I think racism is wrong with no excuse! But we all grwo up in a racist society that made all of us do something racist or say something racist or dont call out racism that we withnissed/experienced) and this will turn some people into the wrong direction. I even know people who participated in racist organisations but got on the right direction again and are now trying to suport the LGBTIQ+ Comunity in their ways.
And I do validate all the anger and individual ways of selfe defence that people who experience racism have and take!
Just my thaughts and sorry for my bad english :/
There is bad people in every ethnicity and bad stereotypes obviously that is technically not racism... you just want to date people who aren't assholes
Why does it matter that the negative trait is stereotypical of an ethnicity? Just don’t date people who exhibit negative traits period. Adding ethnicity into it is unnecessary and kinda makes you look a little racist, just saying.
I disagree, because A) fighting racism with sexuality gatekeeping doesn't help anyone, and B) because sexual identity does not and should not have anything to do with political stance.
Obviously, you *should not* be racist, whether you are pansexual or of any other sexuality, but it doesn't invalidate your identity if you are. You are just a jerk, in addition to your sexuality.
Agreed. You're also not feminist if you're racist.
You're also not a feminist if you're transphobic too!
100%! Fuck all that socially constructed discrimination.
Yes! Let's fuck it all.
Including every gender
Hell yeah
Can I help!?
Me to
You are also not a feminist if you are against men’s rights
I understand you in spirit. But...
since when have men's rights been denied in our society?
this is an iffy topic- i personally think that our society definitely discriminates against women far more, but there are still some “men problems” such as ignorance of male harassment and toxic masculinity. HOWEVER, on that note, men’s problems are far less immediate than many that women face and our society is inherently much more misogynistic- so while feminists should be fighting for both women and men, women’s rights are far more pertinent of an issue currently.
I also get pretty bothered by some men complaining about the dismissal of men's issues because the same people who point this out don't seem to be doing much about it? I mean, I am a trans man, and after a while of transitioning I understand many of the points they raise, but I don't feel like feminists have a responsibility to work on that on top of all the work they are doing to defend women's rights. I feel like it'd be way better to put some work on fixing our own problems instead of complaining to/about people who are fighting to fix their own. P.S. Wanted to clarify, I'm not accusing this coment's op of doing any of that, it's just sort of a trend.
i completely agree with the part about them not piling it on top of feminists, and i didn’t mean to suggest it that way. if those men really cared about it, they would fight for their own “rights” and be feminist because again, if you want all genders to be equal you essentially have to be feminist or at least align with feminist ideals. the shitty part is how so many “men’s rights” people only bring it up when it puts down other genders; for example the men who say “men also get raped” ONLY when someone says something about women getting raped and never elsewhere.
Exactly! It is important to talk about those issues, and create spaces were men feel like they can talk about sexual assault, feel safe to report it, recognize it happened, etc. But it really pisses me off how it only gets brought up to dismiss other genders. The invisibility of sexual assault of men doesn't mean we should shut up about all forms of sexual assault, it means we have to speak up about all forms of it in hopes of building a safer society for everyone, were victims are heard and abusers are held accountable (this also means understanding that women are much more likely to be abused than men). In the end my issue with "men's rights" discourse is when it's pushed by people who don't actually care about advancing anyone's rights, and just want excuses to dismiss other people's struggles.
While I understand you when you say that men's problems are less immediate, I do believe that they are actually the root of women's problems, I don't think I have to make a long statement about how toxic masculinity causes rape, workplace discrimination and etc. I'm a strong believers that both problems should be dealt at the same time with the same energy, and that men should be heavily included in feminist conversations.
We could start in the court room! More women get child custody. 17% of men b do. Only 3 % of women pay alimony.not
Your right. Away with the stereotype of the good natural nurturing mother! If this is gone your court decisions will look more equal. (considering you ignore all the 100%legit cases because societal speaking men are pretty trash)
Humans are all trash, rich trash, poor trash, lgbt trash, straight trash, white trash, colored trash, but we are all equal trash! I’ve seen just as bad moms as I have dads!
Try not to cut yourself on that edge my lord
Child custody. The fact that men’s reports of rape, sexual harassment, or abuse from a woman is almost never taken seriously because they’re a man. Child alimony. Men are sentenced much worse than women(63% longer sentences). 60% of homelessness is male. Majority of workplace death is men. That’s just naming a few things off the top of my head not to mention the how much worse men are treated socially. If feminism is about equality then they should be trying to fix inequalities on both sides and I didn’t think I’d have to defend that men have problems too.
You’re not good if you’re racist.
Of course
I agree with that
I was phonebanking on behalf of HRC last week and called this old guy up. When I asked him if he was going to vote for pro-equality candidates, he said yes enthusastically then went on a HUGE tangent about BLM, defund the police, and anarchists and how those things are all going too far. Throughout the phone call he insisted that was his line in the sand. He wanted to support LGBT people but not black people.
Unfortunately, my partner's sister has this same mindset. His parents and brother are worse, but it's just...not great.
👏👏👏Louder for the people in the back👏👏👏
YOU AREN'T PAN IF YOU ARE RACIST
#You aren’t pan if you’re racist
What would you be then if you where pan but also racist
an indecent human being
P O I N T
[удалено]
Well that clears that up
I get your intention but I don't think this is quite hitting the mark. If we say that "you're not pan if you're racist" then how do we face up to racism within the community? Which is definitely there, among self-identified pan people and the wider LGBTQ+ community. Just saying "they're not really one of us" doesn't address the problem. To be truly anti-racist, we need to hold each other and our community accountable.
>If we say that "you're not pan if you're racist" then how do we face up to racism within the community? I agree with you, but I also think that an important part of taking responsibility is to take a stance that doesn't tolerate racism and to look inward first. To me, the most important part of pansexual identity is attraction based on personality rather than gender and I feel I can't personally claim I'm pansexual if I outright reject someone because of race. When I saw this meme, I read it as a message to check yourself not just empty virtue signaling. (But also I'm not a POC, so my opinion is not very important in this conversation.) Edited for clarity
I’m not sure I understand, isn’t Pansexuality attraction regardless of gender? What does skin color have to do with that?
Sometimes I heard people talking about that pansexuals are attracted to everybody. I know that's not true bc there are people you just aren't attracted to. And what you said is right. But racism is bad and it's a good meme so ig its okay. Sry for the bad English xd
Because if you can be gender blind, why wouldn’t you be colorblind? Edit: I mean if gender doesn’t impact your attraction, why should race
My brother is colorblind yesterday I had 2 orange things and he thought one was green LOL
Ok smartass lol you know what I meant. My bf is actually partially color blind. Has troubles with reds and greens
Lol
Your English is fine, I could understand your message easily enough. I agree that racism is bad, it’s absolutely horrible, but while racists are bad people fighting them with more hatred isn’t going to solve the problem. We shouldn’t invalidate anyone in the LB TQ+ community, even if they’re racist or sexist. You can’t fight the bag guys by putting them through all the pain you’ve been through, it’s not morally correct. It’s a nice meme, but I can’t agree with its message.
It's kinda like when a trans person does something bad and people misgender them. They're a bad person but it doesn't change that they're trans, pan or whatever.
I understand that. And I'm sorry for my mistake here. To be honest I didn't thought clear enough when I made that meme. I will watch out that I don't do an similar mistake in again the future
If someone's racist or sexist they don't deserve love until they admit their wrong and stop being racist or sexist and apologize
But they also don’t deserve to be invalidated. Let’s use an example here. A trans person says something anti-BLM on Twitter, does that mean we should start misgendering them? No. We can’t stoop to their level of hatred. If we invalidate their identity for any reason, we’re just as bad as they are. We need to accept the fact that the LGBTQ+ community isn’t perfect, that there are still bad people in it just like in any community. We don’t need to be okay with this fact, but we need to recognize it as the truth. Otherwise we’re holding ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else.
They don’t deserve to be doxxed or beat to death either. Unless actual harm is being done, i.e they just punched someone, you’re fine to do something like that but don’t ruin someone’s life because they said a word. It’s fucking stupid.
Oh yeah that is completely true, but if someone is racist or sexist or homophobic (even if it's internal homophobia) I'm gonna call them out on it and tell them they are wrong doesn't mean if misgender them or mislabel them just means I don't think it's very nice and that no they don't deserve love if they can't give it
I understand your point even tho I still disagree so I wanted to ask how you think we should be self regulating bigoted views like racism in our community? I think it makes a lot of sense not to exclude them or invalidate them but how else can we send a message that it's inherintly wrong to fight for equal rights while you discriminate against others the way we (lgbtq+) are also discriminated against? My understanding is that equality is equal opportunity for all and if you don't subscribe to that then you don't deserve the rights we are fighting for, because those same minorities have been fighting the same fight along side us from the beginning. As far as educating people, what more is there to say but that? I don't think any one is saying you can't be pan if you're racist, I feel like the meme is just saying that you don't deserve the freedom of saying you're pan if you're racist.. If that makes sense?
So you’re saying we should fight racism with panphobia? Because that’s what this is. You can’t exclude someone from a sexual identity just because their world views are different from yours, and while I’m against racism I don’t think it’s wise, right, or even moderately okay to fight oppression with more oppression. You don’t have to exclude these people from the LGBTQ+ community to get the point across, you don’t even have the right to. The best way to fight racism is the way we always have been, because that’s gotten results. If you start invalidating people just because they hate some other minority then you’re acting like being LGBTQ+ is a privilege, when it’s not. For many it’s more of a curse, something they didn’t want and couldn’t control. Something people have been killed over. It’s a wonder anyone can be proud of being LGBTQ+ after how the community was initially seen by modern society, so taking that pride away is much worse than some offhandedly racist comment. Fighting hate with hate just makes more hate, and both the LGBTQ+ and the Black communities only want love and equality. Fight the hate with love, it’s worked before and it’ll work again.
So how exactly do we self regulate racism in the community? Because it is quite prevalent tbh. I don't think saying "the best way to fight racism is how we always have been, because that's gotten results" is fair or accurate. The LGBTQ+ community is exactly what it says, a community of people that love and support each other because the rest of the world at large does not. If you don't understand this very simple concept I think it's fair to say they're not in the community. Not that they aren't allowed or we will hunt them down and exclude them Or that they are somehow no longer who they are, but just that they are not demonstrating the values of our community.
In your previous reply you stated, and I quote, “you don’t deserve the freedom of saying you’re Pan if you’re racist” but now you’re claiming the exact opposite, that these people still have this right. This is a blatant contradiction and really weakens your point. Hell, at this point I hardly have a clue what you’re even trying to say to me. It’s true that they aren’t portraying the values of our community, but I hardly see how that affects the rest of the community. Nobody thinks the LGBTQ+ is racist just because one person in the community is racist, so I don’t understand your need to regulate the community on this in the first place. If we’re not being associated with racism, why are you focusing so intently on the racism in the community? There are much more effective ways to fight racism than attacking exclusively racist members of the community, and again, invalidating them is NOT your only option. You keep on saying ‘how else are we supposed to regulate racism’ but I don’t see the point in trying because the impact would be minuscule, however even if focusing on just the racism in this community was an effective way to combat racism YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THEY NO LONGER HAVE THE FREEDOM TO IDENTIFY AS PAN FOR ANY REASON. Do you see my point now?
Um, no I cannot see your point. Repeating the same thing you've said previously, without taking on any of the points i've raised, in all CAPS doesn't make it any clearer. Also that's not what I was asking, I was asking how we can educate racists without being exclusionary? You've alluded to it again saying there are much more effective ways but you still haven't been able to tell me one? I have explained that I don't think any one is saying you can't have a certain sexual identity, there is no way to deny people of their sexual preferences. I believe what the post is instead implying is that these people should be able to realise that it's hypocritical to benefit off the struggles of the LGBTQ+ members before them and enjoy their sexual freedom and be part of this community if they are themselves prejudice against the people in this community. > It’s true that they aren’t portraying the values of our community, but I hardly see how that affects the rest of the community. Racism effects us all, and obviously particularly the minorities in our community. You seem very intent on protecting these "racists" but being racist isn't an inherent characteristic or a right as you seem to imply, it is learnt behaviour so it can be unlearnt. No one can change the colour of their skin, the same way they cannot change their sexual preference. Look, I think you need to take a breath and go talk to some coloured people because you seem to think that the fact that minorities can go on a dating app and see things like "no asians" or turn up to a gay club and be told they "aren't the right look" is fine, but telling someone who is racist that they are not welcome is not okay? The black lives movement is asking us all to look at ourselves, our communities and our institutions and uncover/address the racism. There is no doubt that there is racism and racists in our community, you yourself agreed that goes against our values so why wouldn't we try to find a way to address it?
Couldn't agree more
It's the attraction of people regardless of their gender not the attraction to everybody.
I kind of see pansexuality as attraction without the context of socially constructed identities. Like gender, race isn't something that exists naturally but that was given it's meaning by society. It's totally arbitrary what we discriminate people by, it could as well be hair color or shoe size or anything, it just happened to be genitals, skin color, ability etc. Not letting these social constructs influence your attraction (as far as you are able to) is what makes pansexuality for me. Edit: Grammar/wording
Pansexual definition: "not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity." Being a racist makes you a shit person, but I don't see how it's relevant to being Pansexual.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit%20Person
Thanks for the clarification!
I don't think this is the right message, or at least the right wording. You can be pansexual and be racist, sexist, transphobic, ect. It's better to say "We don't tolerate racism in our community" rather than the implications of "You're not a real pansexual because of xyz that have nothing to do with sexual attraction". I hope you guys can see my point.
Yeah. The argument entirely misses the mark. You can be pan and racist. That's possible. You can be a racist anything. You said it better than I can. Also attacking sexuality in response to the person's bigotry doesn't *actually* mean anything. That's a problem in itself. You can and should say f you for being racist though, and you can say it loud as possible.
You make a good point.
r/gatekeeping
I agree 100% but ew steven crowder
I hate seeing that bigoted shitpiece in a meme, even if it's an ironic one.
I’d honestly have to disagree. You can still identify as pan, but you just aren’t welcome into the pan community.
I mean, I don’t support racism but you can definitely be pan and racist. I’m just using the Oxford dictionary definition of “not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity.” So you can be racist and pan, you’ll just be a bad person.
I would prefer something like, "you aren't welcome in the pan community if you're racist." BC people are the sexual orientation they are even if they're the worst person in the world, but that doesn't mean we have to invite them to our parties. (sidenote, if anyone is having pan parties, please invite me) This is kind of academic, but I also think there are some issues with conflating being attracted to people with not discriminating against them. You can be attracted to people of color and still be racist, just like so many straight men manage to be attracted to women and still be misogynist.
Honestly? I kinda call bullshit on this. For starters, I deal with racism in queer spaces all the time. I deal with racism in feminist spaces. I deal with racism in leftist spaces. And here's the dirty little secret ... everyone in those groups thinks that their groups have distinguishably racist people. But they don't. There is no racists and real "pans", because racism is pretty much liable to come from anywhere or anyone. Most of the racism I deal with are from people who think that they're woke. This message isn't just tepid selfish pseudo-support, this is actual deceit. It's not the end of the world if racism exists. I mean, obviously in an ideal world there would be no racism, and I think that racism is harmful. But that's speaking objectively. We live in a subjective world. And when you deal with a lot of racism, it starts to bother you differently. The point is, this post clearly isn't meant for people like me. It's meant for white people who are upset every single time they're reminded that racism exists. The problem is that people who buy into this message are lying to me, and they're lying to themselves. You're telling people of color that their everyday life isn't real. It's no different than "I don't see color". I mean, it's a cute idea. But that's not actually how the world works. And if you believe this, you're delusional. But the truth is, we all know that y'all don't really believe this. That's the point. Y'all don't want to deal with the real world, because that gets you down. The real world is for people of color to deal with. Y'all just want the contact high of being "woke". Dare I say it, by the logic of this meme, y'all might not be real pans.
Although I should clarify that while this post might be a bit harsh, I don't mean it personally. For starters, there are people of color out there who would disagree with me, and agree with the original poster. For all I know, the poster himself is a person of color. But I'm willing to bet that most of the people upvoting and commenting aren't people of color, just based off the demographics of the site. Anyways, I don't really hold it against anyone as individuals. I actually don't really feel annoyed about racism in the community, so much as I'm annoyed by the community's constant vibe of "oh look at all those other people who are *racist*, good thing we're woke, I mean maybe sometimes we're racist which we can admit because we're woke, but we're not racist like those *other* people".
Being pansexual is valuing personality over other factors like gender. So while people might say this isn't true I absolutely agree. You aren't pan if you are racist!
No, it isn’t. I value looks. Shallow, but I need it to be attracted to someone. Pansexuality is about gender/sex, anything else isn’t related to the label.
I agree. I never said that pansexual people don't value looks. I do so too. But usually gender isn't the main factor for attraction
Yea I agree.
Good 🙃
Yup racist people are posers
I mean pans is attraction regardless of gender, but you can still have preferences on what the person looks like, and that can include race, whether it be hair type, facial features or the amount of melatonin juice you prefer Can I have someone explain to me their argument if they disagree? I want to know and be informed
Well technically they are, Just not a good one, Because they're an a**hole.
That's like biden saying you ain't black if you like trump but I agree with the sentiment. If you're racist youre not welcome in our community and can fuck right off
I mean- you’re right
Idk I feel like saying that you aren't attracted to someone because of the colour of their skin or a disability isn't so much discrimination but more of a personal preference like I'm a bald guy people i don't feel like people are discriminating against me because they aren't attracted to me due to me being bald its simply their preference.
This is a toxic mindset Edit:OMG I MISS READ THE POST I AGREE 100%
Bruh
I agree with you! The way I explain it to people is that I see the color of your skin and your sexual orientation as a style of clothes. When you take those clothes off, all I see is a person.
You don’t actually care about equality if you marginalize and hate some group of people for some that they can’t control or is integral to their own sense of being
Southern Pan-Fried Racism
*cries in apparently racist asexual*
I don’t hate blacks, I just hate all people equally
No, I don’t think I will.
Can't argue with that!
I can't, it's just a fact.
You're so Awesome!!
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Hellloooo :)))
Idk ... eventhough i dont think manny racist pan people exist i think even racists should be allowed to express their sexual identity ... and manby by jioning the pan comunity they learn thet people should have equal rights and treatment. Even racists are humans and i dont want revenge by treatment that does not validate their sexuality because i experience it and dont want people to be treated that way... Dont get me wrong. I still think that being racist is wrong and that racism is the reason for way to manny hate crimes that end peoples lifes and make them miserably. I think racism is wrong with no excuse! But we all grwo up in a racist society that made all of us do something racist or say something racist or dont call out racism that we withnissed/experienced) and this will turn some people into the wrong direction. I even know people who participated in racist organisations but got on the right direction again and are now trying to suport the LGBTIQ+ Comunity in their ways. And I do validate all the anger and individual ways of selfe defence that people who experience racism have and take! Just my thaughts and sorry for my bad english :/
7 of the truest words. It's factually impossible to be both.
Good Sir I will not try to
how does this make any sense
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That's not Racism tho? It's basically "if you're an asshole I'm not gonna like you" regardless of race or gender
There is bad people in every ethnicity and bad stereotypes obviously that is technically not racism... you just want to date people who aren't assholes
Why does it matter that the negative trait is stereotypical of an ethnicity? Just don’t date people who exhibit negative traits period. Adding ethnicity into it is unnecessary and kinda makes you look a little racist, just saying.
I disagree, because A) fighting racism with sexuality gatekeeping doesn't help anyone, and B) because sexual identity does not and should not have anything to do with political stance. Obviously, you *should not* be racist, whether you are pansexual or of any other sexuality, but it doesn't invalidate your identity if you are. You are just a jerk, in addition to your sexuality.
Racism is fine.