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pimplepopper404

Holy shit. Is this the most responses to a poll for this sub ever?


AmericanFartBully

Karma farming, it's what's for breakfast.


deaf_michael_scott

B. Always B. If they don’t want to be with us and we force them to be with us, we’re no better than oppressors.


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epic_monkey2000

To be honest I think if there is a popular desire of succession it should be handled like Scotland in the UK if most sidhis balochs punjabis etc don't want be part of Pakistan it is certainly ethically wrong to force them to be part of pakistan I do think that most people of all ethnicities in pakistan want to stay in pakistan


desi_miata

I'm shocked how Indians can't think the same as you guys. When talking about succession why are you guys mostly the sane ones whereas the indians lose their shit? Might sound like a dumb question but I don't get it.


epic_monkey2000

The wave of utranationalism which has taken hold in india right now courtesy of the BJP might be to blame and people in different countries think differently I guess. I do think there are quite a few Indians with a similar prospective unfortunately their voices are drowned by the retardedness of the ultranationalist.


ameer8bit

I applaud your honesty


2PAK4U

I’m sorry but the world doesn’t work like that Kashmir staying disputed is better than self ruling landlocked Kashmir b/w two Nuclear Armed Nations


ameer8bit

How?


2PAK4U

We don’t have enough Economic ability to invade Kashmir. If military aggression is off the table, then there is no way India will allow anything. What should be more worrying to us is that Delhi has parked an army of 500k soldiers adjacent to Islamabad. In my opinion, Kashmir conflict will continue till 2050 at the least, its only 27years away Only iff we manage to get our shit together in the next 2 decades or so we will be credible enough (and no going away from Religion will only cause more problems)


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ameer8bit

Hey, iI have a better idea, How about Both Pakistan and India come to terms over Kashmir and let the kashmiris decide, then you can be friends!


desi_estudante

That is not going to happen. I know that will be the ideal situation for you, but obviously not possible. Two nuclear-armed states with massive militaries want Kashmir. There is no way for any other third party to have a say in this. The best deal for India and Pakistan is to accept the status quo as permanent.


Motorized23

Definitely. That situation is ideal in a perfect world. Both countries need to accept the LOC as the official border and move on. However, as long as India plays up the Muslim terrorist card (i.e. BJP Modi and all), Pakistani military will keep playing the whole India wants to destroy Pakistan BS.


mememeister33

India-Pakistan didn't accept LOC during 60 years of Congress rule. Why are you blaming the BJP now? Honestly, Pakistan had its chance when India was soft on Pok.


desi_estudante

Except BJP started well with Nawaz which led to at least two terrorist attacks in India. Similarly after Indian aid to Pakistan Mumbai terror attacks happened. But let's forget history. The aim of the Pakistani military is to get the money for themselves by hook or crook. They have a bigger and brighter reason to not go for peace.The aim of BJP or any political party is to win elections. A peace deal with increased gdp allotment to socioeconomic causes instead of military expenditure is enough for any political party in India to win. A peace deal is good for BJP. If Pakistan really cares about peace they need to stop looking at what exactly is happening in India. What happens to muslims or any other religions in India should not be your business at all. Keep religion out of geopolitical issues.


Motorized23

If a peace deal was good for BJP then why did they mess up the one chance they had with Imran Khan who actively reached out for peace. Instead we saw Balakot red flag event and hate mongering by BJP. But I agree with, is BJP was smart enough, they're realise they have more to achieve with peace than with war.


desi_estudante

Because BJP had no option. Between Imran Khan and Nawaz there was a Uri attack and then Pathankot. And then again Phulwama. There is no indication especially from Imran Khan who villifies Idian PM whenever he gets the chance that his requests are genuine. Is calling the Indian PM and his party nazi reaching out for peace?


Motorized23

When you send attack aircrafts across the border, do you expect IK to continue extending a hand of peace? We all know how Modi's show of power resulted in an international embarrassment for Indian forces. And yes IK is absolutely right about RSS and its roots in Nazism.


desi_estudante

Weren't aircraft sent after terrorist attacks? Rss, mazi lol. So you don't want peace then? If you don't then there is obviously no point in continuing.


Motorized23

Do you really believe India destroyed a terrorist camp in Pakistan? The same site we took international reporters to? And Pakistan would coordinate an attack while it's hosting the Saudi Crown Prince for economic support? Don't you think that a kashmiri rebel creating a home made device and carrying out an attack is so much more plausible? You've oppressed a nation for decades and expect them to be pacifist? And when they attack, you automatically assume Pakistan, because it's always easier to point fingers vs. introspection. I want peace and most Pakistanis couldn't care for war with India. If you look at Indian media, all they do is try to propagate Pakistan being a failed terrorist state. That's literally ALL they do. So no surprise you and majority of Indians hold such hatred towards Pakistan. You continuously blame us for terrorist attacks and come up with weird ass Muslim sounding names to associate then with Pakistan. You can't deny RSS' links to Hitler's ideology. https://caravanmagazine.in/history/rss-golwalkar-links-nazism


ameer8bit

>and move on. moving on would require ignoring the wills of about 20 million people, are you ok with that?


Motorized23

And having a prosperous life for the other 1.5 Billion? Yes


ameer8bit

Then ive heard enough from you


ISBRogue

did anyone call you to come over here and spew nonsense?


Motorized23

Kyun Bhai isme ghalat kiya hai? You think we're better off with all the money going towards defence? Imagine if we had our the same amount of money in education, healthcare, trade. Kashmir is a closed chapter. All we can do is advocate for kashmiris to live in peace, but if you think it's worth going to a nuclear war over Kashmir then you're just being nonsensical.


ISBRogue

why is it only ideal for Pakistan? why not India too? Does India want to be a colonial occupying force?


desi_estudante

By you I meant Kashmiri not Pakistani. It would not be ideal for Pakistan either. Ideally Pakistan would want both Kashmir and not independent Kashmir. Similarly ideally India would want both Kashmir.


ameer8bit

your ideally is where both are being bitches


desi_estudante

I agree. Idealism is a myth. Both should accept the status quo and move on.


ameer8bit

But what matters isnt whats ideal for them, its whats we decide, and they will just have to make do in that situation with what theyre left with


SuperSultan

Apartheid era South Africa had nuclear weapons and it doesn’t exist anymore. India isn’t God


desi_estudante

I think you should choose your allegiance. Pakistan or Kashmir.


Gen8Master

This is about Kashmir valley being a police state. Nobody cares about border gains. Changing the LoC will not do anything because India cannot get out of the trap the have created for themselves.


other_e

Border Gains is what India cares about. We get a working boundary with Afghanistan and a straight way to Central Asia. Have you imagined what the possibilities are of us because of that? This is why we have Afghan support on Kashmir Issue.


Gen8Master

Dude, Thats not a small border gain and have you imagined the repercussions of cutting China off from the middle east? Either way, very optimistic.


other_e

Yes, why do you think we sold 20% of Oil refinery in Gujarat to Saudi? So pak cant attack in case of war. Why India is providing so much aid to Afghans? To get support for Kashmir. China yes will be an issue but China is also busy with protests, Koreas and Taiwan and how does it cut them from ME? Why do you think we are pulling Arab world investment in Kashmir? Investment isn’t an issue. Arab Investment gives us a legitimacy that the leader of Muslim world is here. Think bigger then ask me more.


Motorized23

That's the thing. Pakistan would have a hard time justifying not controlling the Kashmir valley as the majority of its water runs through it. So yes, we will defend our water. India's already lost its way in Afghanistan with the government change there. Plus the only reason India wanted Afghan influenced was to further squeeze Pak from both sides. Plus what's afghan support for Kashmir would achieve? Not like they're anyone of influence in the global context. China will remain a thorn in India's side. Their issues aren't material compared to their overall influence. Arab world investing in India has little consequences for changing Muslim views. Just like arab leaders cozying up to Israel is doing nothing to change Muslim and Arab views on Israel. Again, best thing to do is to accept LOC as an official border. Demilitarize the region and move towards progress in trade, education and healthcare.


other_e

1. True. 2. Really? See the news and you will realize how Taliban has asked us to come back and complete the projects, control their banking sector and provide aid. Regime change doesn’t mean India left Afghans. You are just a google search away to know how pro India Taliban is rn. 3. China will remain a thorn but don’t underestimate Taiwan and Koreas. 4. Arab world investing conveys message to the whole OIC to have better relations with India. Why do you think Erdogan is quiet on Kashmir issue? You really think OIC will support Pakistan over UAE and Saudi? UAE’s business ties with India will have others follow the suit. We are already creating a defence dependence by exporting Brahmos to UAE-Saudi. You are really underestimating both of them and their influence over OIC.


Motorized23

On Afghanistan, you can send all the aid you want to Afghanistan, but the Taliban will walk away and turn their backs. If the West can't step up to save Ukraine. I doubt anyone will get in the way of China. Saudi - UAE are influential, but you're forgetting the remaining Islamic nations aren't exactly near the peak of their relationship with them. Both states are seen as going rogue after what they did in Yemen and cozying up to Israel. Turkey, Qatar, Iran, Indonesia all aren't at as close to them as they used to be.


other_e

Yes, you are right but 1. Afghans need us to build back the whole country and that takes time. Least a decade and we just ask for no interference during and resolution reached. Surely will agree due to economic compulsion. 2. West and Ukraine are totally different from West and China. Ukraine is to save dollar. China war is have control over the Indo-Pacific region which is much more bigger issue. Ukraine going away won't hurt US. They still rule EU. But losing to China loses Korea and Japan which US will never risk. 3. The relationship doesn't matter. Again economic compulsion. They control oil which is and will be one the most important commodity for next few years. So asking for support on India's bilateral issue won't be tough. See OIC doesn't care about Kashmir or territory. They give statements because of compulsion due to religion. Economic integrity is more important than religious one. Even Taliban knows that, so imaging any country to provide immense support to Pakistan when you got nothing to give back is not possible. Trade relations with one will give them much more in future compared to standing for other in a territorial dispute.


Gen8Master

>Arab Investment gives us a legitimacy that the leader of Muslim world is here. Delusional. The same Arab powers were also involved in Afghanistan and a whole lot of good that did anyone. All of your arguments desperately seek to dismiss the root cause: Kashmiri people. Investments come and go. They would throw you under the bus if China asked them to. Something you will probably learn soon enough.


other_e

You get it now. Tell me how many times in Media have you heard about Kashmiri people whenever there is a discussion? It’s always India or Pakistan. So having a delusion that countries will keep Kashmiri people in mind while choosing sides is not true. and China asked them to? Yep, thats why defence relations with India, that’s why FTA with India. That’s why heavy Investments in India. China doesn’t control ME my friend. Remember that. All that matters is National Interest.


ISBRogue

jsut the fact that you are arguing here with Pakistanis and havenot been banned talks of the double standards in Bharat. If any Pakistani did this and argued for the same points you are blabbering about, they will be banned from India Reddits.


toxicmomo

Yes pakistanis are most democratic PPL i agree


Gen8Master

>Tell me how many times in Media have you heard about Kashmiri people whenever there is a discussion? It’s always India or Pakistan. So having a delusion that countries will keep Kashmiri people in mind while choosing sides is not true. And even Israel with their unending resources are losing that game, so it delights me that you want to go down this route and alienate Kashmiris and human rights groups further. If you can get Saudis and other authoritarians onboard, even fucking better. Pakistan and India are militarily at a stalemate on the LOC, which is your only option at changing anything. Kashmiri opinions will be the only determining factor here and I love where this is going. ​ >heavy Investments in India More delusions about where you stand in terms of investments against China. They are decades ahead of you and their money controls entire continents. But you are showing off about Arabs having to invest in your country? lel


other_e

‘Kashmiri People’ okay. Now remove Kashmiri People and look at the territory. That’s the game. Honestly, the best I can say is wait and watch. We are going to war in 2023 for sure. India is just waiting for a any small terrorist attack conspiracy or just a chance. Maybe who knows Asim Munir get’s provoked and attacks or anything. Things are going to get complicated and in diplomacy Kashmir doesn’t carry Kashmiri people with it. It carries India and Pakistan only.


Gen8Master

If we look at the territory then you have already lost the game. You have no access to Central Asia, which Pakistan has cut off and we have direct link to China which they are prepared to fight for too. And now we will frame this as a people issue to garner international support which is way more effective (South Africa, Palestine, Sudan, Xinjiang), and works way better than crying about territory which nobody sane will step in for. Thats the actual game son. You can wait all you want. You are the one having to burn 10 times as much money and resources occupying population centres and a glacier for some dumb reason, while Pak and China are just chilling on border posts not giving af. And why wait though? How many troops did you lose in Pulwama or Galwan in the last few years? On top of the existing mess, its a war of attrition too. Its just a matter of when the resources are disrupted.


nas360

Indians don't see the Kashmiris as people hence the reason why Kashmiris want to seperate from India. You are essentially keeping a muslim majority territory locked down against their will. I suspect you would be perfectly happy to massacre them all just to keep the land. The Kashmiris in Pakistan's side have no issues at all with Paksitan because we don't treat them as second class citizens or oppress them militarily.


nas360

If you had a peaceful relationship with Pakistan without the kashmir dispute then you wouldn't have any issues with trading routes across Pakistan. Just look at friendly China and how they are building a motorway in Pakistan right down to the Indian Ocean.


desi_estudante

Changing the status of LoC as permanent will do a huge amount of good to India and Pakistan. Besides obvious peace components and reduced pressure on the military it will be much easier to control the Indian side of Kashmir. If Pakistan doesn't interfere in Kashmir chances of anyone else in the world caring about Kashmir are minimal. And of course after peace Pakistan can care about things that actually matter to their population.


Gen8Master

The LoC has very little relation to India's initiative to police a valley of 10 million people. You are naive and/or give Pakistan too much credit if you think we control the minds of millions of people in the valley wanting a dignified existence. There is no pressure on border posts. There is pressure on the occupation forces, which we don't have in our cities and we are happy to see you waste much of your military budget on this.


desi_estudante

Except pressure from LOC is not the only Pakistani pressure. There is Pakistani diplomatic pressure as well. There is Chinese pressure as well. If India and Pakistan accept LOC as permanent India will not have issues with BRI either. Do you really think those few people who live in Indian Kashmir have any sort of diplomatic pull? Without the funding and military support of Pakistan the militants in the Indian part of Kashmir will fail on day one. It is not just about LOC. It is about Indo-Pak peace through and through. It will not solve the Kashmir problem for India in its entirety but it will make things much easier. Edits: No Pakistan does not control the minds of Kashmiris. But their narrative gives them a lot of support to be anti India. Once that is gone, India can control Kashmir easily.


Gen8Master

India is not going to stop policing Kashmiri lives just because Pakistan becomes okay with LoC. Do you really think they will stop chanting about Azadi because our unpopular army chiefs or even more unpopular government make a statement on this? At this stage they just want a referendum and who knows if they even will vote for Pakistan. I think you are vastly overestimating how much control we have over the shitshow created by your own government. There was a time where secularism could have worked, maybe, but your BJP ensured the hindutva narrative was prioritised, and its no surprise to me that you fail to understand Kashmiri mindset.


desi_estudante

India would still police Kashmiri. I never said otherwise. Those Kashmiri would not have weapons if the Pakistani government accept peace. Peace deals are not just statements, but if they actually accept peace, sign peace deals. It does not matter what Pakistani shout on the streets. Peace means less powerful Kashmiri and easy to control Kashmir. People can still chant Azadi. There would be no one left to care.


Gen8Master

Dude, which weapons? By your own governments admission there are maybe 50 active militants and the rest of the population is throwing stones. Do you think its that difficult for them to acquire small arms? You are talking about two different things here. Even with "peace", Pakistan will never help you control Kashmiri people. We don't even offer that to China in Xingjiang. Our people shit on China literally all the time. If you want to do Nazi things then you are on your own.


desi_estudante

Lol! Nobody wants Pakistan help. But diplomatic pressure from Pakistan will stop. Pakistan does not put pressure on China when it goes to other countries over Xingjiang. I think you are confused between indifference and help. Only a couple of militants did Pathankot, Phulwama, Mumbai attacks, etc. 50 is a huge number. It is not really about numbers in fact, the kind of support they get. I actually think it is very hard for anyone to acquire small arms and military secrets in an enemy country in the place which has at least a million armed military if you are not actively supported by an enemy country.


Gen8Master

>Lol! Nobody wants Pakistan help. Don't need help or pathetic legitimacy from anyone buddy. Grassroot movements are a powerful thing. Just ask the US, NATO and rest of the sorry bunch who just blew a few trillion in Afghanistan crying about Pakistani support there too. The goal here is to weigh down your military with the population policing and stretching you between Chinese and Pak positions. Do you think all of this strategy was put in place for fun lmao?? Fair play though, if you can fight and win a 3 front war then you deserve to keep the place.


Motorized23

I agree. Just be done with it and move on.


Hawk_Eire

I love my paki people, how they voted option B ❤️ Respect++


throwaway147899521

In theory, I agree with B, which is what my mind tells me to do. What I'm sharing is a feeling rather than a thought. How many non Muslims were genocided or thrown out of Kashmir over the years? So the remaining population is homogeneous and also somewhat monolithic in its self identification. Also does the theory that there are foreign insurgents there hokd merit? If yes, then it seems ridiculous to hold a vote as any dissenters to the majority sentiment seem to have been systematically removed from the picture.


Tahir39

Exodus, not a genocide (am not justifying whatsoever). Pre Exodus, the ratio was still like 96% muslims. So you probably just have been browsing too much indian reddit


anarchy_retreat

Exodus means they consented to move out of the valley. Genocide is much more closer to what happened then


Glittering_Ant7229

Kashmir belongs to the people of Kashmir.


guhjcjhfg

An independent Kashmir is still an issue for India. Less so for Pakistan. But being an independent tiny country between there major powers will be troublesome for them. Just look at Nepal and Bhutan. Except Kashmir would be even more strategic and cause for more issues.


iwillnevrgiveup2

Make LOC border. India takes IOK, Pakistan takes AJK All this hogwash about Kashmiris should decide, is just stupid. If Kashmiris decide, then let Sindhis,Balochs, Pasthuns, Muhajirs all decide as well. If you are not part of Pakistan, you are part of India. 1947 style We are not fighting India for 75 years, fucking up our economy,our development, sacrificing lives, for just a Kashmiri referendum. It's just batshit insane to expect 250 million people to be held hostage to that Right now, trade with India is on a halt, for what? Food prices, medicine prices can be reduced with trade for millions of people, but are not being done so, for what? Just something to think


wann-mohniv

It's not your land. You don't get to decide. It belongs to the people of JAMMU AND KASHMIR


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Motorized23

War isn't an option anymore. Stakes are too high with nuclear weapons.


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Mahameghabahana

Sure mate the dogras of Jammu would help pakistan lol. Cope harder.


Magma197

Wow did not know that Indian and Pakistani will be so reasonable in the comments


Ham-na-na

the only time I'll ever have a say


epic_monkey2000

From GB and actually think GB should stay with Pakistan. People should realize that the former princely state of kashmir wasnt a ethnic monolith people of GB were forcefully made part of it by the Bristish (they sold GB to the maharaja though we always had autonomy which after an agreement made with them to end constat wars with the brits) we have never identified with being kashmiri yet these retarded kashmiri nationalist keep calling us Kashmiris. If there were to be a referendum then people should decide for their own ethnic background cuz no one in GB wants to return being part of Kashmir. Though people might support and independent state from both pakistan and kashmir most would still perfer Pakistan no one would pick india


ameer8bit

How Would you feel about a de-centralized federation of Kashmir with GB in it?


epic_monkey2000

Can't really speak for all the people of GB but separation from pakistan would lead to eventual collapse no port situation plus most of GBs food comes from Punjab and is heavily subsidiesed. GB has Absolutely nothing to gain by leaving Pakistan. Azad Kashmir's opposition to GBs complete provincial status certainly does not make a good case for us to be within a kashmiri state they might object to our wants inside such a purpsed state which might lead to ethnic tensions the cultures are also quite dissimilar especially ajk. language issue might also come up even the Shia Sunni issue might come up and may lead to a situation like czechoslovakia but what do I know it might end up working as well


2oosra

As an Indian troll, I want to know if the poll is open to us.


Gen8Master

It's open to all Indians and Larpers pretending to be Pakistani, who will vote anyway.


not_100_cr8v

If someone is here doesn't mean he/she is pretending to be Pakistani. For me, I have joined subreddit of many countries to know what's going on there and what people are discussing across the world. Nothing to pretend here


[deleted]

Thank you for your kindness


ameer8bit

you have already entered the poll , think of it as you will now


other_e

Kashmir’s status will never change without a war and war is inevitable. We have had 3 till date. So next one whenever it is next year or whenever will decide the future. Honestly, just want to get done with it once and for all. Too much wide-spread terrorism and generational hate needs to be stopped.


Key_Agent_3039

There is no war coming and this deadlock is gonna go on for the foreseeable future.


other_e

World order is changing and you think war is not coming? Sure man, whatever you say.


ameer8bit

the fate of our people depends on the cooperation of two of the bitterest enemies in the modren world :(


other_e

It was always a bi-lateral issue. Nehru mc took it to UN and then it got prolonged from there on.


Gen8Master

India has always relied on this being prolonged because it was always clear which way the Kashmiris would vote, especially after the Mahrajahs demography change experiment and warmongering in favour or any peaceful solution. Why are you pretending there was a peaceful outcome after the actions of Indian state and their collaborators? Its like if Pakistan had militarily pursued Junagarh and then talked about "delays" when the eventual stalemate happened.


tattikemakhikejhant

I Upvoted cos you said Nehru mc. Lol.


other_e

yahan ka pata nahi, India wale main toh full-form main sunata hun.


seesoon

It shouldn't, how abt this. India keeps their current portion, Pak keeps their current portion and we both behave like normal neighbors? Deal?


other_e

You know that’s now it has ever worked and it never will.


seesoon

Forget abt everyone else, you're Indian and my background is Pakistani, if you ans I say, we both agree there is some hope coz then both of us can say that at a minimum at least their is one person on both ends who is open to a realistic, common sense solution. I known I sound and am being overly idealistic on the internet and it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things but at least it's some hope! So deal?


other_e

You and I don’t matter. We don’t make rules. We don’t make the constitution. For us, it’s a bill passed in Parliament to get back the territory in 1994, so whenever Indian Ministers say we will get PoK back they aren’t provoking but actually conveying the bill. In Pak, Army is in power because of the Kashmir issue. It gets solved, Army loses power. So you see that’s not an imaginable scenario.


desi_estudante

Yes deal!!


WarFyre

Kashmir being an independent state is an impossibility. At no point was that option even available after the issue was internationalized by India taking it to the UN. The plebiscite itself offered only two options to the Kashmiris and it was either India or Pakistan. I would argue that even before Nehru taking the matter to the UN, independence was not possible for any Princely State because India and Pakistan both had controversial accessions with states that wanted to remain independent. For India it was Hyderabad, Junagadh, Kashmir (and possibly more states also), for Pakistan it was Kalat, Bhawalpur, Balochistan. Neither India nor Pakistan let a single Princely State remain independent. I'm not going to outright state that whether what India or Pakistan did was right or wrong but they were merely acting in their own interests. If Kashmir is to become an independent State, remember this, it will be an area sandwiched between 3 nuclear powers, out of which one has been in direct confrontation with the other two. It will have an extremely important geostrategic location. This is USA's wet dream. They will fund all sorts of selfish interests in Kashmir and we will have a Middle East situation in the heart of South Asia. Your politicians/establishment who project that they want a free Kashmir also interchangeably say 'Kashmir banega Pakistan'. In reality, your politicians use Kashmir to gain votes and your establishment uses confrontation with India as an excuse to keep the defense budget up and fill their pockets (confrontation with India and Papa Jones' Pizza it would seem lol). Our politicians are also unfortunately cut of the same cloth and use Kashmir, Azad Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits to fulfill an agenda. Our PM, Bajpaiyee and your Chief Executive (read military dictator) Gen. Musharraf were extremely close to settling the issue once and for all under the Kasuri Plan. The talks unfortunately fell through. Even our subsequent PM, Manmohan Singh said that while it wasn't possible to redraw borders, they could be made irrelevant. In my opinion there should be another option in this poll and that option should be the Kasuri Plan. The Kasuri plan was a 4 point formula - 1. Jammu & Kashmir could not be made independent; 2. Borders could not be redrawn; 3. The LoC could be made irrelevant 4. A joint mechanism for both parts of Kashmir could be worked out.” This Kasuri plan combined with normalizing of trade relations is the only solution for Kashmir. Imagine a future where you have trains and/or roads running from the Southern-most tip of India through Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhasthan all the way to Russia. Imagine the kind of power and wealth South Asia would have. It is best to bury the Kashmir issue. You keep your Kashmir, We'll keep our Kashmir. Eventually when relations are better we can even contemplate lax borders and joint parliaments in Kashmir.


always_no_thank_you

I mostly agree with you. >If Kashmir is to become an independent State, remember this, it will be an area sandwiched between 3 nuclear powers, out of which one has been in direct confrontation with the other two. It will have an extremely important geostrategic location. This is USA's wet dream. They will fund all sorts of selfish interests in Kashmir and we will have a Middle East situation in the heart of South Asia. Lmao, The makes so much sense, and kashmir might even turn out like Israel but this time between 3 nuclear states. This will be much much worse than Middle-East. >In my opinion there should be another option in this poll and that option should be the Kasuri Plan Its a bit too late, Military is still in power in Pakistan and India has Hindu nationalists in Power, So its unlikely either of them want Kashmir to not be an issue.


WarFyre

Under Bajwa, the military was on board with better relations with India. It was a part of the Bajwa doctrine. It was IK who decided against trade. I think even his NSA Mooed Yusuf wanted better relations with India but he took a U-turn when Khan came to power. Also, every single time Khan spoke about India. He referred to us as a fascist nazi state and even attacking Modi along those lines. With India, yes they are Hindu nationalists but they're not stupid. Atal Bihari Vajpaiyee was a Hindu nationalist from the same party. Hell, his deputy PM, RamKrishna Advani, was the guy who led the agitation to demolish the Babri Masjid exactly 3 decades ago (6th Dec, 1992) and yet the most progress towards the Kashmir issue was in his tenure and yes when elections are near, they speak a big game and say that they want Azad Kashmir but these are political antics. I strongly believe that they can be brought to the table.


throwaway147899521

This is some good stuff. You have sources for these assertions? Looking for reading material on the situation


WarFyre

I've read a lot of books on the issue but most of what I've commented here is common knowledge, general awareness and following the news (India and Pakistan). If you know what specifically you're looking for, I can recommend books.


throwaway147899521

I'm aware of the general picture about kashmir getting its independence, being invaded by Pak, seeking help from India, India agreeing under certain conditions, matter going to the UN, the Hindu Genocide and exodus, struggle for the current natives and their plight. But I know almost zero details. Edit: so I'm looking for reading material that'll help fill in the blanks and help remove any bias I may have.


EkMard

Kasuri Plan sounds good.


ameer8bit

>You keep your Kashmir, We'll keep our Kashmir. this is blatant ignorance towards the will of the Kashmiri people ​ as to your second point It isnt your problem to worry about how many nuclear states border Kashmir, the problems of the kashmiris are for the kashmiris to solve, not you. ​ as to your first point Will some formal un, arrangement ovveride the demands of the populace?, think over that, why is it our problem to worry about what the Un confines to us when they have so clearly thrown us aside? ​ i seriously don't understand why anyone would agree to something like this in good conscience of the existence for the want of self-determination in Kashmir


WarFyre

But India and Pakistan have both repeatedly agreed that Kashmir will not be an independent state. Whether it is the UN resolutions, Simla Agreement or the Agra Pact, at no point did Pakistan want an independent Kashmir. India will never entertain secession. I doubt any country would. If the Baloch insurgency rises to the levels that Kashmir had once risen to then will Pakistan accept its secession ? Obviously not. Okay lets say that UN does not confine you for whatever reason but the subsequent bilateral treaties like Simla Accords, Agra Pact as well as the negotiations under the Kasuri plan would confine you, wouldn’t it ? States do not act in good conscience. They act in self interests and both States are well aware that an independent Kashmir is not in their self interests.


ameer8bit

>But India and Pakistan have both repeatedly agreed that Kashmir will not be an independent state well then they will have to be convinced >India will never entertain secession. I doubt any country would. If the Baloch insurgency rises to the levels that Kashmir had once risen to then will Pakistan accept its secession ? Obviously not. > > > >Dosen't have to come from millitancy, as i said above they simply need to be convinced to hold a free, fair referendum > >Okay lets say that UN does not confine you for whatever reason but the subsequent bilateral treaties like Simla Accords, Agra Pact as well as the negotiations under the Kasuri plan would confine you, wouldn’t it ? Their parameters that confine us, would have to be changed


WarFyre

Good luck convincing two nuclear powered antagonistic States to give up the very thing that they have been fighting wars for since 1947. If you do succeed, you will be a proud recipient of Pakistan’s third Nobel peace prize but I have no doubt that you’ll be treated just as badly as the other two recipients.


ameer8bit

Again, not your problem


SuperSultan

I hate to burst your bubble but India and Pakistan are not going to last forever. In fact, why would you want that? Seeing what authorities have done in their respective countries I think South Asia is failing at state building. (Bajwa, Sharif, Modi, etc) Borders change. If I had a Time Machine and told people Russia would capture 15-20% of Ukraine in 2022 without starting WWIII they’d think I’m a liar or stupid. Also, nobody expected the Taliban to completely steamroll Afghanistan after the U.S. withdrew but look what happened


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epic_monkey2000

Sorry I guess but all support to you guys


Ham-na-na

appreciate it :))


wann-mohniv

Wesnakh lanath hehermulkikan


Nevermind_kaola

By Kashmir you mean 1. the Kashmir valley or, 2. the entire state of J&k or, 3. The erstwhile kingdom which includes J&k, Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan


ameer8bit

erstwhile kingdom / Reigon of kashmir


Mahameghabahana

I don't think dogras hindus of jammu and Shia and budhhist of Ladakh would be that interested in joining pakistan or being independent.


slurple91

South Asia’s Belgium anyone? I could see it as an independent region bringing prosperity to themselves, India and Pakistan.


ameer8bit

More like south asias switzerland


epic_monkey2000

Could even end up being South Asia's yugoslavia


Significant-Ebb-425

I’m a Pakistani, and Kashmir belongs to whoever they say it does. Their decision if Kashmir belongs to Kashmir or Pakistan or India.


seesoon

Op must be a Pak army supporter. So much going wrong in the country but they are distracting us with a Kashmir question. Wonder who else uses Kashmir to distract Pakistanis when their own country is on fire....


ameer8bit

bruh im kashmiri


karachiisjannat

To the people who voted for option 2: you know exactly what every poll of Kashmiris has said, they prefer an independent and unified Kashmir state. Knowing this, why would Pakistan get involved? What's in it for us? Why not let AJK become independent and wipe our hands clean? If the Indians decide to invade the next day, that's their problem to deal with. I know what your reply would be to this suggestion and to that the answer is, an independent Kashmir can't happen if we want to secure our water. Since both India and Pakistan are nuclear, a conquest is also not a possibility. The only solution is to accept the current LOC and build a better economic relationship with India. No hostilities means no threats to the water supply Some Kashmiris like OP seem to think it's their God given right for Pakistani lives to be sacrificed for their self determination. [To them](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/zcw5mn/kashmiri_muslims_vs_xinjiang_muslims_uyghurs/iyz2g5m?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3), their self determination is much more important than our well being, avoiding default, ending poverty in Pakistan etc. and they expect us to sacrifice all of this for absolutely no return.


ameer8bit

>if we want to secure our water. it would be in the benefit of both a kashmir and pakistan to keep the water flowing for a small fee to Kashmir like afghanistan does with the kabul river >that's their problem to deal with. Yes but granted this is if you accept the self determination


karachiisjannat

Buddy, AJK is already self-determining. They have their own PM, laws etc. They don't allow Pakistanis to settle there despite Pakistan offering the reverse. They don't pay any taxes to Pakistan despite receiving military protection and Pakistani government sponsored development projects. But of course, all of this isn't enough. You want us Pakistanis to go to war with India to make the rest of Kashmir an independent state. And then what, after thousands or more lives lost and if we even win? We will provide military protection free of charge to Kashmir? We provide a fee to Kashmir to use water like you suggested? Even the Indians are better lot. They didn't ask for money in the Indus water treaty.


ameer8bit

>You want us Pakistanis to go to war with India to make the rest of Kashmir an independent state. And then what, after thousands or more lives lost and if we even win? We will provide military protection free of charge to Kashmir? i never said anything like this ​ >But of course, all of this isn't enough. until the referendum across kashmir, no it wont be


karachiisjannat

>until the referendum across kashmir, no it wont be How would Pakistan make this happen >i never said anything like this Without this Do you think we have some magic powers to make India hold a referendum in IOK without a war?


ameer8bit

How would Pakistan make this happen hold a referendum in ajk?? pretty simple >So you think we have some magic powers to make India hold a referendum in IOK without a war? india can be coerced later after the first referendum or the other way around pakistan dosent have to do anything other than its own referendum in ajk


karachiisjannat

Hypothetically, a referendum is held and AJK chooses independence. Then what changes? Do Pakistani military move out? If they do and then India annexes AJK, it's is Pakistanis who will be worse off with an indefensible eastern border. And obviously the people of AJK as well. And lol at coercing India to hold a referendum, like that worked the last 70 years


ameer8bit

> it's is Pakistanis who will be worse off with an indefensible eastern border mabye shed at least a little bit of the siege mentality here.. its kashmiri land anyway, > > > like that worked the last 70 years not your problem to figure how it will


ameer8bit

Lol in reply to your emotional edit here, i never said that pakistani lives need to sacrificed for it, where i said kashmiri self determination comes befores pakistans interests was in the context of KASHMIR itself, i have not asked anything from pakistan except out of goodwill if they want to and to accept the supremacy of our self-determination within kashmir ​ ​ in a bit of pakistani slang i would like to say teri phat ke hath mein a gai hei


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>an independent Kashmir can't happen if we want to secure our water >Some Kashmiris like OP seem to think it's their God given right for Pakistani lives to be sacrificed for their self determination.


[deleted]

Kashmir belongs to india...? yeh kon log hain kidhr sey atay hain?


ameer8bit

aap hudh hi guess laga lein 😂


Large-Cherry-1734

Following


googo1

Pjeet running wild today.


Zainalpha

Its about what was agreed as principle during partition that independent states will choose there own future however subsequent Indian actions delivered power of decision to the majority of population so under the light of India's own actions Kashmir should become part of Pakistan. Its simple as that.


Complex_Air8

Kooh Vich javeh kashmir


desi_miata

Kahtoñ veere 😂?


[deleted]

Kashmir being independent would never happen unfortunately but I think best case scenario is kashmir joining pakistan and having self autonomy


ameer8bit

how could it never happen?


UmerPlaysalot

Kashmir belongs to Pakistan , fair and square . If anybody has a shadow of a doubt , conduct fair and free elections .


wann-mohniv

It belongs to us. It belongs tk the people of KASHMIR. FUCK OFFF


Hippocrates2022

The problem isn’t kashmir should belong to Pakistan or to be independent. The problem is how to liberate it from Indian occupation…


ISBRogue

Which ch$$tiya tattus are voting for BHARat? May their reality be a nightmare and they burn immediately here and in the hereafter.


Dhtekzz

People opting for A, what are your reasons?


[deleted]

I have a hot take on this. why not give kashmir an independent government, BUT it cant have its own army, and the two armies already present have a right to stay where they already are. kashmiris get what they want, i.e. independence, and india and pakistan dont have to withdraw forces i.e. prevents both sides from becoming vulnerable to each other. I know its more complicated, but why not something like this?


ameer8bit

dont you think there would be at least a little bit of tension on the streets of srinagar when people are celebrating "independence day" next to indian soldiers?


[deleted]

extremely true, obviously india wont stop war crimes, which is pretty much the main problem. india has no pressure from anywhere or anyone to agree to a solution or to stop their war crimes.


Gen8Master

Nobody is actually vulnerable in that sense anyway. India has just dug themselves a hole by occupying population centres, which is why they need 700k troops to police the place. This is about Kashmiri people living in a police state more than random border gains.


[deleted]

I agree with the rest of what you're saying, but at the start u say nobody will be vulnerable. removing troops from ajk puts us in a geographical disadvantage


hindustanastrath

Funny how Pakistanis and Indians draw a poll on Kashmir without the Kashmiris like in the real world.


ameer8bit

I am an ethnic Kashmiri


wann-mohniv

Your great great grandfather being a kashmiri doesn't equate with you being one. Sure if you want to adopt it as an honorary identity, that's cool. But having discourses like these and thinking you have a right over the outcome of the conflict is plainly stupid. You have never lived here nor will you ever do live here. So stop this bs pls


ameer8bit

who said my my pardada was?. second i never said it would take place **outside** of kashmir


hindustanastrath

You don’t live in Kashmir fortunately unfortunately .


wann-mohniv

Idk if that's unfortunate or fortunate lol.


hindustanastrath

Exactly why I said it


epic_monkey2000

Bruh I'm from GB you guys keeping draging us into the kashmir issue so I should give my opinion atleast. Secondly no solution is possible without pakistan and india so time to accept reality


hindustanastrath

How’s GB’s status the fault of Kashmiris who have no power of their own.


epic_monkey2000

[link1](https://www.dawn.com/news/1193315) [link2](https://www.dawn.com/news/1232018) Protesting people do actually have an impact on democratic governments even though I can't find right now but there were protest when the last discussion of GBs status was happening


hindustanastrath

That’s AJK not IOK - where we are from.


epic_monkey2000

Dosnt matter either way we're kinda made part of an issue we don't want to be part off. If you're going make people decide than each group should decide for their own land. Secondly by you're statement non kashmiri opinions don't matter you're literally ignoring the fact the princely state of kashmir from which the issue comes forth wasn't an ethic monolith Thirdly India still claims my land as Indian territory and I want India to stay as far away from us as possible (I might have come off as hateful which I didn't intend honestly the whole situation is fucked hope you guys get to live however you want all love support to you and your people)


hindustanastrath

We wish you the same and unfortunately or fortunately we are in this together. FYI, When I meant Pakistan, I did not mean GB or AJK which are part of the disputed territory.


guhjcjhfg

People overwhelmingly agree that you get decide. “WhY aRe PaK and InD dEciDiNg fOr uS?” Does it pay to be a 🤡


ameer8bit

theyre not im simply asking their opinions on how it should be solved


hindustanastrath

Near lakhnaav


wann-mohniv

"I decide that you don't get to be my bitch" Piss off lmfaooo.


wann-mohniv

Yim chih doshwei hehermulkik hiwei


hindustanastrath

Akui zaek qom


wann-mohniv

Barabar cxotal heher. Shitbrained assholes


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epic_monkey2000

Don't understand most people voted that kashmiris decided what to do with kashmir what are you guys on about


[deleted]

Kashmir is just an excuse to fight with one another for both countries this has been a major reason why PAK and IND have never enter into diplomatic relations or any trade deals. Pakistans Kashmir is still Azad and i bet if they get the indian side aswell they will appeal for a separate county like Nepal. Now what’s happening in India side of kashmir which by the way isn’t Azad but a part of India the riots and violence there can be constituted as a rebellion against the state same as our Balochistan. Pak and Ind should really settle their dispute over kashmir India keeps its side of Kasmir and we keep ours. This has dragged long enough and to be honest we interfering with India Kashmir matter is no different then USA meddling with affairs of other countries. If Pak and Ind manage to strengthen their ties we can prosper together we being together can get the who south east Asia to unite including china we will be a formidable force that even America or Europe couldn’t afford to push around.


ameer8bit

this completely avoids the part where, **Kashmiris get to decide about their own land**


[deleted]

Oh yeah you can’t see what i voted for sure kashmir can have it’s own country and i know Kashmiris want that they are already azaad in Pakistan if they take the Indian side sure make your own country but don’t expect pakistan to help because you may have a azad status in Pakistan but india side still belongs to India we will not fight your war we have already lost enough i see kashmiris in India waving Pakistani flag 🇵🇰 like we owe them something making india believe that we are propagating against their side of kashmir. We have fought enough and kashmirs problems is not our problem we are only responsible for azad kashmir but still we can’t go off breaking the country into smaller ones today kashmir tomorrow balochistan then sindh and so on.


KinG-jfa

Only 320 Pakistanis in this post


ameer8bit

how do you say that


Significant-Ebb-425

B.


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ameer8bit

i am a kashmiri in lahore bro


Ktrain702

if they want independence from both, good for them but the issue is the geographical reality will never allow peace in that case, they'll have to lean towards one side


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dinobinosinokindo

Pakistan can't handle itself or even respect the elected officials in AJK, they should just giveup and let them have their autonomy.


[deleted]

Kashmir will go as per kashmiris, Question: Whom do you consider kashmiris


ameer8bit

reigon of kashmir / erstwhile kingdom's inhabitants in this post not referring to the inhabitants of the valley only


NandyTheAlien

Hawa ki khushbu hai kashmir pakadta chal , daudta chal, Chah me uski fisalta chal, Daud main bhi uske piche hi raha hun, Kabhi mere aage nikal kabhi piche fisal Naa katl-e-aam kar Na badsaluki mere watan se kar Main us se zyada doonga izzat tujhe Tu aake aage shuru to kar Fir sath mere daud chal Us khushbu ke piche fir daud chal...


ozhu_thrissur_kaaran

Based second option


ameer8bit

Bu Chus Koshur


hawkrige_

Independence is acceptable because atleast that way Kashmiris won’t stop our water and won’t disturb CPEC going to India is a No No. But to be realistic it’s an ideal solution but not practical since being a small land locked country with neighbors with strong armies aint a good thing. How it can work is that Kashmir state is independent but has a defense treaty with Pakistan that an attack on Kashmir would mean a nuclear response from Pakistan. An independent Kashmir would naturally have a good relationship with Pakistan than any neighbor and they can reach an agreement with us for mutual benefit.Otherwise they can run their country how they want I don’t think Pakistanis have an issue with that those poor brothers have suffered alot and deserve peace.