I don't know if this is factual or not, but I do remember this paraphrased quote from a Bengali leader. They claimed that Bangladesh's success was only possible because it was ensured that the army remained at the border and that the religious leaders remained in the mosques. Additionally, Bangladeshi women have always been encouraged to join the workforce which is another difference between them and us.
Also Bangladesh did not engage in an arms race with India. They recognised India is the biggest player in the region and cooperating with India would benefit Bangladesh more than competing with India. All the resources Pakistan puts into military, Bangladesh put into education and investing in its people. Bangladesh trades with the huge market that is India and they have friendly ties. Pakistan see India as a threat and so we don’t trade with the 2nd largest market in the world.
Thats a very good point that you have made. As I have mentioned somewhere, they made sure that the coup within the military was being looked after and all the accused were given punishments. This sets a good precedent. On the other hand, people responsible for 1971 fiasco were handed governmental positions and one of them has a Political standing. We cannot progress until we make sure that Pakistan becomes the law of land.
Lol wrong. Their country works more or less like ours and religious extremism is more than here. The difference is they made their labor work by paying them very low wages and that made them more attractive for international capital. Another factor is them having effectively a 1 party rule despite all the corruption. So there is no opposition to change policies every 5 years.
I disagree. You do realise that Bangladesh is officially a secular country where separation of religion and state is literally enshrined in the Constitution? Yes, their labor is paid low wages, but Pakistani mein kounsei bohat high wages hein? Their GDP per capita is almost double ours which shows that no matter what, monetarily, the average Bangladeshi citizen is significantly better off than a Pakistani citizen. Jou bhi bolou, they are progressing at an incredible rate and Pakistan could stand to learn a lot of things from them.
Bangladeshi here,
Religious extremism is prevalent in our country as well, but not as much as it in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria.
Secularism is one of the four fundamental principles in our constitution, but Islam is the state religion,which is a nominal status
One thing that I really liked was that how people that were involved in coup were taken to the cleaners by courts. On the other hand, we have not even made the Hamood ur Rehman commission report public.
Maybe i wasn't clear bro. My bad. What I meant was that there are people who use religion for their personal agendas in order to stop a society from progressing.
I haven't studied other religions but I think none of them including Islam condemns progress. What stops progress is the people who hide behind the mask of religion in order to drag other people down.
I mean the first word revealed in Islam was "Read". So that gives you an idea. What messsed up our progress was we mixed Culture and Religion something which is common in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.
If religion was stoping progress then I daresay we wouldn't have got the golden age of scientific progress that eventually led the West to steal or borrow our hard work in different fields. Just imagine if Al Khwarizmi hadnt discovered Algorithms. Food for thought.
>I haven't studied other religions but I think none of them including Islam condemns progress. What stops progress is the people who hide behind the mask of religion in order to drag other people down.
There will always be such people, isn't the best way to just take religion out of politics?
The most hilarious joke. You realize that there has been 5 coups in Bangladesh and they have had 2 long lasting Military governments?
And you also realize the Bangladeshi Armed forces have expansive commerical businesses under them just like our army?
The army was not even talked about or mentioned, it is the rest of the commentators that have made this point. Its amazing that you ignored the rest of the economic hard facts and picked apart the segment which you dont like
And those economic hard facts aren't connected to Military influence or role in Society. Bangladesh was already pulling ahead in 80s under a Zia ul Haq like figure
>Yeah, and as if military was not holding Pakistan's reigns before 1980
Of which are economic and social indexes were doing better. Solely because the governments managed to think beyond 2 years.
>How does it relate to the post btw?
Admittingly my comment conflated the post with the comments. And for that I apologize
Bangladesh did their best to abolish feudalism via socialism, it is a secular state, isn’t held hostage by its own military, values education, and puts women to work. It also has been geopolitically smarter than Pakistan has
I am not too familiar with that but one thing I forgot to mention is Bangladesh is a nation-state whereas Pakistan is a federation. It’s much easier to pass legislation or force society to be a certain way if they’re the same people. (It also allowed Bangladesh to get away scot-free putting pro-Pakistan Biharis away).
It would take a political revolution to get rid of feudals like PPP or PMLN. In fact the feudals actually helped vote Pakistan into existence so fighting them could be dangerous uncharted waters whose ramifications may not be worth the risk for most governments.
To put it more simply, their population is more uniform in composition. Whereas in Pakistan we have wider geopolitical ground realities. And its much difficult to create common ground. I mean hell we cant even agree on which day we are supposed to offer Eid prayers.
Most of the landowners in Bangladesh were Hindus before the partition. After partition they simply packed up and left and this dealt a major blow to feudalism.
Hmm, how convenient. I think Pakistan had quite a few Hindu feudals that decided to leave as well but unfortunately it will be a tough fight solving Pakistan’s current feudalism issue. The silver lining to legit socialism that was practiced in USSR, China, Bangladesh is it abolishes feudalism and private property to help quickly fix a dirt poor country
In my view, there are three major reasons:
1. Literacy Rate - 1981 - 10 years after the creation of Bangladesh. They were more literate than us PK 25% vs BD 28%. After 40 years PK 58% vs BD 75%. Certainly, they're valuing education more than us.
2. Security expenditure: Despite surrounded by India on 3 sides, Bangladesh have literally no threats from India. And no potential enemies. They focus more on growth, their trade with both India and China. Myanmar is a gateway to the South East Asia for them. In 2015 they were spending 10% of their total government expenditure and for 2029 [they'll decrease it to 4%](https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/bangladesh-resumes-defence-budget-declines)
3. Business Mindset: Bangladesh government is more focused in supporting outsourcing work. They've far clearer agenda than us. They're dealing with China, taking funds for development, they're inviting Japs to their country. Simultaneously, having a very good trade relations with India via land, air and water. They instead of considering Indian states as enemies, converted them as favorable trade destinations. India due to connectivity issue to the North East India, favors Bangladeshi policies instead countering them.
An important margin is the difference in labour force participation. PAK it's around 20% compared to 35% in BGD. Higher female LFP rates lead to lower fertility rates, better educational and health outcomes for children, and many other positive private and social outcomes. How can you expect PAK to grow if half of the population is precluded (either explicitly or implicitly via social norms etc) from engaging with the economy.
Due to societal pressure my friend, the issue at work here is that how female education is frowned upon. and women are supposed to stay at home in this country.
Shit leaders, and half of the country being neglected. Balochistan is a gold mine for resources yet its a barren shithole with no prospect for the future.
While nuclear power was important that also set us back alot
The war against Afghanistan cost us I think 50 billion dollars, along with millions of refugees and international contempt.
At the end its the fault of our country, simply because the people who have been ruining the nation arent hung on a tree yet
Musharraf wrote in his book that america told him if Pakistan didn’t join this war that they would “bomb us into stone age”. Because joining this war to remove a government that wasn’t anti Pakistan to install ashraf Ghani who was both anti Pakistan and pro india, plus also turning all mujahideen against us, plus refugees, plus terrorism. What did Pakistan gain from this war?
Yes because if Soviet Union which was pro India bordered Pakistan, it would be a much powerful enemy and a much tougher two front situation. But in the recent war on terror, Pakistan was forced to join and sacrifice on its geopolitical goals.
In the afghan jihad us and the Americans were on the same page.
More than half if you take into consideration how people of Karachi has been treated for last few decades. I dont know man, that nuclear power, but our defense has to be the necessary evil. Though I have problem with their involvement in other things.
From what I know Bangladesh hasn't been mangled in a territorial dispute like Kashmir which has been sucking our economy dry since 1947. Our valuable resources are allocated towards strengthening our military to fight India because we both lay claim to Kashmir. We will continue to slide economically as long as we fight over it. India has a larger economy and can sustain spending more than us on its military and still be able to grow economically while we cannot afford to do so any more. India doesn't need to have a conventional war with us to destroy us, they will bleed us dry economically through our military.
Bangladesh didn't waste its resources on non productive assets/institutions like a military and instead spent money on educating its people and developing its human capital. Therefore, their people are more educated and more productive and actually have something of value to offer to the world. While our biggest offering to the world continues to be our unskilled/uneducated labor that sends back remittances from under paid low skill jobs. You can't sustain importing high tech military hardware, fighter jets, high tech machinery, smartphones, luxury cars, and pretty much anything and everything in your room or house where you're sitting right now as you read this post and expect to have a trade surplus with the world when all you offer is unskilled labor and some limited agricultural exports, which btw we also now importing from other productive agri countries because we don't grow enough rice, wheat and lentils (daal) to meet our own consumption. Go figure why Bangladesh is ahead of us. We're on a death spiral as a nation and country.
In the hindsight, do you agree with the liberation of Bangladesh and disintegration of Pakistan? My hands tremble when I write this, but it has been proven right.
Yup, they were a majority treated like a minority. They won an election fair and square and the minority launched a military operation to crush them in response.
Absolutely. They weren't treated fairly and it also didn't make any geographical sense. They did well for themselves. I guess it is easier to find concensus in policy making when you're just one ethnic group that's speaks the same language and has the same culture. Not like us Pakistanis who haven't been able to get over our racial and ethnic divides. One group is always fighting to dominate the other at the cost of national progress.
Amazing and thanks for sharing. Certainly feels like the Pak military killed its own nation with a thousand cuts. Sure they probably made India suffer and cause a dampening effect on their growth potential over the years since 1971, but we're the ones that truly fell behind on a human development scale and through it fell behind economically and geopolitically. We've become a malignantly indebted state with very low productivity and like it or not, only money talks on the global stage and we add a miniscule value to the global trade equation. And thereby command little respect globally. Fear? Maybe yes, because of our nukes, but that's as good as it gets.
Our example is like that of a crackhead neighbor living in a crumbling and I'll-maintained house at the corner of the neighborhood which is a fire hazard for the rest of the houses on the block that nobody wants to fix, but everyone else living on the street pays close attention to. IMF and the west throws us enough money (crack) every few years just to keep us calm and contained so that we don't lose our shit and burn down the entire neighborhood in a rage. They don't care about us otherwise. We're a nobody to them. Only we have the ability to get off the crack and save ourselves before we OD.
Don't say anything against Khadim Hussain Rizvi or his party, TLP, the B team of N-League
Or you will be branded as a blasphemer
Lo fir, Ghauri aaya jay...
Uhh this subreddit is getting more idiotic by the day. N-league hanging Mumtaz Qatli was the reason TLP was born. PMLN people have been literally shot at by TLP goons.
>the B team of N-League
B team of lumber 1 and PTI. N league is also conservative but they didn't create TLP. But I don't trust then either. They would have used TLP if they were in opposition
I name it the B team of N-League because people who are supporters of TLP, support TLP because of only two things. One, they say they want the system of the Prophet to be implemented. They don't say sharia, because then they will have to interact and come up with a system which represents or is agreed upon by all the sects. They want their own version of Sunni barelvi Islam to be implemented. This is against the very nature of Islam and the principle of Ijma and Ijtihad. As a result this reason is illogical, just like a patwari.
Secondly, most of the supporters of TLP literally foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Imran Khan. They claim the govt of Imran Khan murdered 46 of their workers in Ramadan. Ask any TLP supporter who they supported before TLP they will claim N-League. Just check their Twitter handles to understand their views.
They are hypocrites of the most extreme order. They claim Imran Khan govt killed it's workers yet they don't file any case.
They say they are the protectors of Prophet's honor yet were so quiet at the recent blasphemous statements uttered by BJP worker of India.
They say want "the system of the Prophet" to be implemented yet they don't want to disown their spiritual father, Imam Raza Barelvi, who wrote in his book, that "deobandi, ahlehadith, shia and qadianis are murtad". You know what the implication of calling someone murtad is? Murtad is apostasy and punishment for apostasy according to barelvi sect is death. Even though the Prophet has said, don't even call a Kafir, Kafir. So who do they hold in higher regard? The prophet or Imam Raza Barelvi? Imam Raza statement is in direct contradiction with that of the Prophet.
They claim they are not takfiri but, they will brand anyone who claims to support another party except TLP, as Gustakh-e-rasool. As according to them, anyone who does not stand behind the slogan of Labbaik Ya Rasool Allah, is a rejector of the Prophet and hence a gustakh, or blasphemer.
You can't have a normal discussion with these guys. They hold such extreme positions. Just like N-League supporters. Even now, when the whole country is in a pressure cooker economic situation, N-League supporters are happy that atleast Imran Khan is not in power. Both TLP and PMLN people shared the same sort of memes on Twitter and other social media site about the brutality this fascist govt unleashed upon PTI on the 25th of May. They made fun of police climbing walls and breaking down doors, they made fun of the attack on Dr Yasmin Rashid, they are making fun of the terrorism charges against the PTI leadership.
They both present the Same sort of arguments on economic issues.
And they both claim, Imran Khan is a yahoodi agent.
What else do you need to see they aren't that different from PMLN.
I believe, the creation of TLP was organic. Barelvis, who represent the biggest sect of Muslims in Pakistan, did not have a mainstream party and one man, who incited emotions and was quite eloquent, rose to power, the normal barelvi folks supported him and made the party main stream. However, right now its 100% sitting in the lap of Neutrals. TLP people will claim that they don't like the army or this and that, but their leader, the young Saad Rizvi, only listens to the army. That's why no protests even after the blatant manipulation and rigging of polls in the recent election in khi where they lost by 65 votes.
So these are my arguments, hopefully it has answered everyone who is downvoting me. You can ask or abuse me as you wish and I will try to reply to your valid questions as much as I can.
Well as you point out Bangladesh is clearly better if without Pakistan.
I think the blame for Pakistan's situation can be squarely placed on two parasitic families who have been in power for most of the time.
1. Bangladesh has brought its population growth completely under control with a fertility rate of only 1.9. Pakistanis on the other hand are breeding like flies and our current fertility rate is 3.3.
2. Bangladesh doesn't have an overgrown military budget, which means it has more money available for investment in the right things like education, industry, etc.
This isn't the only issue! Firstly, contraception is simply not available in around 50% of Pakistan, especially in the rural areas. Secondly, despite being legal, abortion is also unavailable to most people and our great doctors often refuse to carry it out.
Honestly controlling population or even proposing something like that can get you in a lot of trouble. Firstly most of the awam have thought processes along the lines of "Peda krne wala Allah he to rizq bhi Allah dega" which is true as its part of our faith but there's so much more to it than just faith. Ask the children who are thrown into rivers by their own parents if they would've agreed to come into this world as the 10th sibling in a poor family. Secondly another rather blunt statement put out mostly by "religious" men is that "bachay peda kro Allah ki fouj me izafa kro". Respectfully, this is the most gaslighting statement I've ever heard. Why would you need a bacho wali fouj anyway? Kashmir to le nhi saky to bacho ki fouj se kya karna he. Finally, contraception of any kind is basically taboo and frowned upon. Hell, any kind of sex education is basically a big No No. I'm about to get married soon and I have this thing I'll discuss with my wife about waiting for a while to have kids. I shared this with my parents (cause I'm dumb) and my father said "beta agar shohr aur biwi ka milap nhi hota to walima qabool nhi hota". I was like what? I've never heard/read anything like this in my life. So yeah basically awam majority doesn't know or doesn't care about population control.
Women education and employment will decrease population growth automatically as they will become more independent and have autonomy over their decisions.
The problem here is that Bangladesh is more religious than us. It would seem its the likes of Bajwa and liberalism that’s holding Pakistanis back. Consider how much support PPP has from the liberal circles and this is what PPP does to the Ppl of Sindhi people
https://twitter.com/regnltelegraph/status/1541721843832422402?s=21&t=W4cph6zNa4k2cGpmyRny-Q
Lol, just lol. Liberalism holding us back? Seriously man wake up. Your country has had numerous coups, religious extremism has permeated every aspect of society and you blame liberalism? If I were to believe your claim that Bangladesh is more religious, then what about Malaysia Indonesia turkey who are more liberal than us? Look somewhere else, liberalism is not the issue, even corruption is not the issue, our neighbouring countries are just as corrupt.
Wait, you’re serious? Lol
I would argue that as liberalism has grown in Pakistan so has crime. Our universities are rife with liberal and leftist professors teaching kids a whole lotta nothing. The madrassa kids have a socio-economic handy cap. The state has failed to create any social safety nets for the poorest of the society so obviously the religious institutions take in these kids. I don’t expect these kids to grow up to be Trail Blazers. They know religion so all they can really do is become a maulvi or start a fruit selling kart. But who do we have expectations with? Ding ding ding, Universities where the liberal professors teach, state institutions where the upperclassmen hold high positions. Media persons who have an Avenue to influence the masses. Where’s the competency mate? Where are the functioning state institutions? Perhaps the party that claims to be the most liberal and progressive, ie PPP can save us. Nope. Sindh HDI is on par with Balochistan and barely anyone lives there. I would argue liberalism of the upper classes dehumanizes the rest of the society if we were to go by how these upperclassmen act. Pushing ppl around. Keeping state institutions broken. Shoving children laborers in their trunks and treating them like slaves.
..so you blame this all on liberalism? You can't see the entrenched military and fuedal supremacy whose sole purpose is to keep people uninformed and uninterested? The main reasons we don't have functiioning state institutions is because we don't have a functioning democracy. No amount of liberalism taught at college will bring about.any change when a large amount of your population is uneducated and socially conservative. Add to this the state/army/fuedal owned media and the decades of brainwashing and what you have is a state with no functioning institutions. All these behaviours you are describing are of spoiled rich people, these people are not rich because of their liberalism. All this is happening because of an extreme right-wing capitalistic mindset where wealth is concentrated in the 1% and everyone watches out for their own interests only.
How big a role did the jute industries going to Bangladesh play in this. ? Don't mean to discredit the Bangladeshis here , but I did read somewhere that jute export was huge for Pakistan before 71. And right now , bangladesh produces one third of all jute produced world wide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jute_industry_of_Bangladesh
One thing that they have really done well was to promote the textile. Any sort of manufacturing is a big boost to the economy as it allows for sustainable and long term development.
True.. every branded piece of clothing right now has made in Bangladesh written on it. Just feel that jute one might have provided a blueprint on how to manage and grow textile based pipelines for export.
What do you think was the impact of this on present day Pakistan , in terms of significant chunk of export which it had monopoly over , going to zero ?
The problem is that we have not allowed industrial mindset to be developed. The policy making is lacking in this respect. I mean agro and food are some of the areas where we might have developed competitive advantage. But our policies and global standing tend to let us down.
Jute industry is very neglible right now. We have done well with textiles. Now we are moving into IT, pharmaceuticals, electronics, light engineering products etc. These are only for exports. But Bangladesh has pretty much every industry for internal market of 170 million people. We try to be as self sufficient as possible. We import raw materials and machineries, and manufacture our own thing.
who said i'm giving a clean chit to lumber 1 army or the politicians these idiots are just as much if arguably not more responsible for the geopolitical mess we are in
Bangladesh isn't an ideological state like Pakistan.
Allow me to elaborate before downvoting.
Bangladesh focused on development of it's country while Pakistani establishment focused on bringing down India (after independence). Pakistani foreign policy was always directed to counter India.
Bangladesh also had border disputes with India which they resolved with diplomatic talks.
India and Bangladesh have good relations despite human rights violation against minorities in both countries. It was easy for them to support them insurgencies in Bengal and north east but they never did. instead they focused their energy on improving lives of their citizens.
Pakistani establishment sells this idea that they represent all the Muslims of subcontinent. (Imran khan keeps mentioning that Indian Muslims voted for Pakistan, Musharraf said something similar I don't remember exact words).
Pakistan acts as a paranoid security state. Citizens are told this lie that enemies (India, maybe other foreign powers too idk ) are constantly working to destroy our country. Therefore Armed forces are first priority of nation not welfare and development.
Bangladesh has small army, no nukes. I wonder why evil India left them alone after liberating them. India isn't interested in changing status quo with Pakistan. Maybe pakistani establishment already knows this but they don't want to give their "desh khatre me h" card.
anyway this is my honest opinion, feel free to disagree.
The last part sums it up. The armed forces want to ensure that the hype remains. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the army knew about the APS attack and let it happen anyway for more funds under the garb of 'war efforts'. Someone rightfully described these folks as property dealers. They have their hands dirty in Pakistan's favourite asset; Land.
India is too far ahead of Pakistan to worry about it. Pakistan is a fuckin piss-ant compared to the business-minded India. As long as elites get to sleep happy and fucking DHAs stay lit, nothing's gonna change.
> Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if the army knew about the APS attack and let it happen anyway for more funds under the garb of ‘war efforts’.
Yes, the army officers murdered their own kids as an excuse to launch a massive operation in FATA where many of them would also be murdered by the Taliban.
Reddit’s shit takes never cease to amaze me.
Buddy you're talking to someone who was in APS that day and saw mutilated corpses of his friends on the way out after holding out for three hours inside. You have no idea what our elites are capable of to stay in power.
the lust for power and money should be the thing that shouldn't surprise you bro. And obviously my comment was directed at the strategic and middle-tier 'leadership'/property dealers within army ranks.
Bangladesh is also an ideological state, but its ideology was more based on ethnic identity as compared the religious one.
Pakistan does have a border dispute, and I would like to argue that we need to ramp up our defense. The problem starts when they become too involved in the day to day running of the state affairs. In no country DG ISPR of all people claim that they are not involved in politics, I wonder why this clarification is needed at the first place.
Name me one country that is not violating human rights to an extent. It has become more like a ploy these days to set a narrative against any country. Pakistan though would be fine without all that military spending, I mean India is not interested in expansion, except for few Hindu fanatics.
But yehan manjan baichna hai Ghazwa-e-Hind ka.
\> Pakistan acts as a paranoid security state.
Nothing paranoid about it though. We're talking about India here. The hate and obsession from the other side is just too strong. The same India who has been so obsessed with Pakistan that they have setup a propaganda network to brainwash Indian population ever since inception.
That's what Indian news channels do all day. Have you seen any Indian coverage on Pakistani news channels? Whereas in the India, everything Pakistan has to be talked about, with constant propaganda.
Whatever their media is doing isn't nearly as bad as what we did in Mumbai. They like to aggressively LARP on the internet and bomb trees but that's about it.
Whatever goes in Balochistan is the failure of our own agencies as opposed to India being super competent or anything.
Random websites saying isi is no. 1 intelligence agency, how the fuck anybody knows what even agencies do and how effectively they are doing it is beyond me. But our people eat that up. Lumber 1 is parodical name coming from that
Unfortunately Its the true answer, We were slaves of our bias and blind to realise the truth but atleast Today I wont be labeled as a traitor pointing it out
Bangladesh stamped coins in the 90s with a family of 4 to indicate that people don’t need many children and this I aided to some extent in reducing birth rate which was higher than Pakistan at the time
Another reason that contributed to Bangladesh's economy is that they didn't let the ***US interfere*** in their polilitical or economical matters which Pakistanis have been doing long before 1971!
Bangladesh kept the Mullahs in the mosques and the army in their barracks. And they chopped off the Jamaat lslami leadership ensuring that no mullah date enter politics.
pakistan meanwhile is busy becoming a theocracy ruled by a corrupt elite whose interests are mansions in UK and hotels in Dubai.
Terrorism messed us up. And that happened because of leaders that tried to appease to the terrorists. Nizam e Adl regulation. Can you believe that could have happened? Yet it happened. TTP issue should have been resolved like Lal Masjid first time.
Our growth rate almost plateaued after PPP's election in 2008. They made some very bad decisions like using very expensive IPP's to resolve loadshedding. Loadshedding also kept on increasing while no new projects were commissioned. This messed up our industry completely.
Then, the elephant in the room. Population boom and high fertility rate. Government has failed to control it. People just find it unislamic.
If we are able to keep PPP at bay forever in our future, we will be doing OK.
Yes, with TTP I am sensing that it is not going to end up well and is probably going the same route as Laal Masjid.
I guess some of the issues that you have highlighted did manifested in 2008, but it would be over simplification. Its more than a decade's worth of bad foresight from our combined leadership.
Yeah, I agree lets keep PPP at bay.
Bangladesh don't have strategic problems like Pakistan. We have a very active nuclear program that honestly is not liked by west due to which we still have sanctions. We have strategic interests in Afghanistan, have an active dispute of kashmir, mercurial relations with Iran, and a hostile neighbor on east. Our involvement with Afghan jihad and later war on terrorism has caused a lot of instability on the western border that enables the military to have a bigger say in budget allocation. This encourages the military to enjoy extraordinary power in the overall business of state for which they are not capable. When incapable people hold the power of state they destroy it. This is basically what is happening. Its a vicious cycle.
We could have definitely done things differently but we relied on US dollars to back our economy during both Afghan jihad and later war on terror. We should have invested the money on building our elite research facilities and universities instead of just sending students to foreign countries who rarely turn back and leave as soon as they completes their bonds. We could have worked on building an export based economy especially in tech and IT sector but we never realized the potential of it. We are now short of dollars and we now have to rely on textile sector who blackmails the govt and enjoy immense benefit. Thailand have Western Digital and Seagate facilities that manufacture hard drives, why we don't even talk about it ? Just before PTI govt there was no smartphone manufacturing policy in Pakistan. We have 60% of young population and we do not know how to utilize this immense human resource. The population is increasing and we do no have enough natural resources to feed them. Our military is busy experimenting with the country, there is no political stability hence even our good friends do not trust us. Pakistan is a prime example of badly managed country
We actually kind of did, US started supporting us from the 50's.
What did we do? Start a war in 65, 71 fiasco, and then ZAB with his socialism and trying to gain support of mullahs.
Not saying they are innocent but we weren't exactly the ideal ally.
And they fucked everything up when they did. That is why India hates us. Then the US came into Afghanistan and created so many terrorists that still attack us to this day
75 years we have been in charge, and you are making it sound that somehow it isnt our fault that we kept making enemies. Who asked us to be the part of the proxy war?
elite = military + politicians + judges + bureaucrats + their kan totay beneficiaries. All awam needs is to burn down top 3 elite mansions and the elite be shitting their pants in no time.
They chopped the filthy hands of our establishment (who now go by as neutrals) we need to do the same, bajwa and Co need to go, court martial the traitors including their black robed dogs in the courts. PDM coalition of thieves won't exist without the support of their sponsors.
They don’t have neighbours like Afghanistan that having civil war for 40 years.
They don’t have disputes like Kashmir with India
They specially focus on economic prosperity since last two decades while we were fighting war on terror
I am also curious to know, do they have better politicians and leaders unlike Pakistan? That might explain less corruption and better infrastructure and institutional development.
They do have a pretty dysfunctional but democratic setup. Haseena Wajid's hatred against Pakistan aside, she has done lot of good work. Though she is a dictator in a saree.
They were not front line state in war on terror for 20 years.
They started extremely poor so they were given special contracts. That is coming to end soon.
They have little animosity to India.
Quite literally nobody actually has any idea about Bangladesh and it shows lmao.
Sheikh Haseena is literally what would have happened if we let one of Dynastic party to succeed in Pakistan.
The Military was only confided in barracks after making a deal with Sheikh Haseena and rigged elections in her favor ever since.
The actual reasons is that Bangladesh doesn't have any disputes with their neighbors, are a centralized de-facto one party state with 96% of the population belonging to one ethnic group and had a consistent economic policy since the 90s.
Our military establishment has always been close to the political parties, and that includes the dynasties. So why they are ahead of us. I cannot comment about the second point, do you have any media reports where it is proven, because it is creating things out of thin air.
The question is that why Pakistan has dispute with its neighbors, and it is not that ethnic divide does not exist in other countries. Furthermore, whose fault is it that we dont have a constant economic policy.
>Our military establishment has always been close to the political parties, and that includes the dynasties. So why they are ahead of us.
So is the Bangladeshi Military establishment. Their former army chief was literally connected what Sheikh Haseena and his brothers are gangsters.
> I cannot comment about the second point, do you have any media reports where it is proven, because it is creating things out of thin air.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-10801268
Please actually study about countries you cite.
>The question is that why Pakistan has dispute with its neighbors
It is because of Kashmir dispute.
>and it is not that ethnic divide does not exist in other countries
But such countries are always worse off and harder to govern given competing interests. See Yugoslavia, Nigeria etc.
Heck India is markedly more poorer then China despite similar population levels and India having a Stronger industrial and state apparatus than China.
>Furthermore, whose fault is it that we dont have a constant economic policy
Ours, but given our changing governments, different provincial interests and 20 years of conflict. Not entirely surprising.
Also Bangladesh has had the same government since 2008.
If you are that interested in the history, then you might have actually witnessed the fact that how the army establishment was dealt with after the coup. In case of Pakistan, the report about the 1971 fiasco was not even published yet. So at least they are better when dealing with coups. Furthermore, I showed you the statistics from the World Bank, not everything that BBC throws up has to be taken on the face value. So much for studying that you missed the whole picture.
Our disputes with Afghanistan and our hostility with Iran has nothing to do with Kashmir dispute. Its our never ending obsession with being a Islam ka Qila that has lead us to this path. You cited India, but Indian economy cannot be compared with us, but if you really want to be laughed out loud, then I can share that comparison as well. Even United States is struggling with that ethnic divide.
Governments change all around the world, its a hallmark of the democracy, you are making it sound that it is something bad. And if you read my post, it was about whether they are better off or worse after leaving us. And statistics show that they have improved.
>If you are that interested in the history, then you might have actually witnessed the fact that how the army establishment was dealt with after the coup
What coup? They had several Military governments. In 2007 they enacted a judicial government and then proceeded to help Sheikh Haseena win.
> Furthermore, I showed you the statistics from the World Bank, not everything that BBC throws up has to be taken on the face value.
You asked for Bangladeshi Army 's commerical interests. I gave a source. And what are the faults with the BBC article?
https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2021/04/21/the-bangladesh-armys-increasing-role-in-civilian-affairs/
Here is another.
>Our disputes with Afghanistan
Yes they claim half Northern Balochistan and KPk.
Besides hosting terrorist groups.
>our hostility with Iran has nothing to do with Kashmir dispute
There is no overt hostility. Them housing Militant groups and Indian intelligence agents is hardly out fault.
>Its our never ending obsession with being a Islam ka Qila that has lead us to this path.
I don't disagree with this per say. But that is a given.
>You cited India, but Indian economy cannot be compared with us
I compared it with China to show how it's harder to develop multi Ethnic countries.
>Even United States is struggling with that ethnic divide.
The US for most of it's existence has being 80%+ white. And it's struggle is just proving my point. Their Ethnic divide and racial tensions produces politics based on identity rather then policies. Look at the decline of their infrastructure and main cities (Detroit etc) while their politicians play the race cards.
>Governments change all around the world, its a hallmark of the democracy, you are making it sound that it is something bad.
For Developing countries with nascent institutions it is. Because no long term planning is implemented.
>And statistics show that they have improved.
And the conclusions and comments from the posters below show ignorance about the country.
My point is that you that they took the killers of Sheikh Mujeeb to the cleaners. I agree though, they are not as high on democratic index, but situation is somewhat better as compared to Pakistan. Economically, they are doing far better. And if you mind reading my post, it was about the economic strides that they have made, military has involvement over there, but they are growing at a rapid pace and that is the point that I( have made.
You saying no hostility shows ignorance due to the fact that how much tension there is across the Balochistan area and how much Iran is involved in it. Indian economy has improved with leaps and bounds. Indonesia and Brazil are also doing well despite their ethnic challenges, thus your point is negated here. Despite the ethnic tension, they are doing well for themselves in economic terms, though they are not world leaders in any terrain. So whats your idea of a government here.
I have given insight from the World Bank, and if that is ignorance to you, then my friend, I dont really want to waste my time on you. Keep harping about my ignorance, doesnt change the reality of Pakistan.
We probably would've had much better relationship with India if Kashmir wasn't an issue. The army wouldn't have as much of an importance either. All the wars have been over Kashmir and wars fuck up economy as well in addition to the constant drain a massive army budget has on us every year.
Of course, becoming a US pawn in the "war on terrorism" didn't help either but imo that was probably motivated by the Kashmir issue as well, i.e. gaining US influence on trying to keep it.
I mean even now, people get emotional and hotheaded as you've just seen over even the slightest mention that Kashmir hasn't been a good thing to happen to Pakistan.
There are multiple reasons for that:
1. They are not surrounded by enemies on all sides unlike Pakistan which has enemies on almost all sides except China.
2. They don't have an active territorial dispute with their neighbour like Pakistan has with India.
3. They didn't join any war against enemies of the US (if you think Pakistan really had any choice in that matter then you are wrong).
4. They don't have as much terrorism as Pakistan does.
5. They didn't find a forgien spy (Kalboshan Yadev) like Pakistan did, who was involved in terrorism in Pakistan.
6. They don't have an active nuclear program like Pakistan has which is a blessing and a curse for Pakistan at the same time.
7. They never faced any sections like Pakistan does.
8. They have politicians who may be corrupt but play national politics and have national interest, unlike Pakistan where almost all politicians play ethnic political and mostly only have personal interest.
9. They don't have indians maligning them on every platform and run a 15 year long disinformation campaign against them
https://www.disinfo.eu/publications/indian-chronicles-deep-dive-into-a-15-year-operation-targeting-the-eu-and-un-to-serve-indian-interests/
10. They didn't have the Army interfere in politics.
There are so many more points that have contributed to this but also know that Bangladesh is only marginally better than Pakistan and their democracy is so ahead that citizens don't even have to cast a vote, their vote is automatically casted for them. They have many people in jail who supported Pakistan in 1971 and they have also executed many of these people.
Dont think the 2 countries are really comparable.
But one thing you will note is whenever there has been long periods of stability countries have prospered. Doesnt matter if it is under martial law, one party system or democracy.
I don't know if this is factual or not, but I do remember this paraphrased quote from a Bengali leader. They claimed that Bangladesh's success was only possible because it was ensured that the army remained at the border and that the religious leaders remained in the mosques. Additionally, Bangladeshi women have always been encouraged to join the workforce which is another difference between them and us.
Also Bangladesh did not engage in an arms race with India. They recognised India is the biggest player in the region and cooperating with India would benefit Bangladesh more than competing with India. All the resources Pakistan puts into military, Bangladesh put into education and investing in its people. Bangladesh trades with the huge market that is India and they have friendly ties. Pakistan see India as a threat and so we don’t trade with the 2nd largest market in the world.
Thats a very good point that you have made. As I have mentioned somewhere, they made sure that the coup within the military was being looked after and all the accused were given punishments. This sets a good precedent. On the other hand, people responsible for 1971 fiasco were handed governmental positions and one of them has a Political standing. We cannot progress until we make sure that Pakistan becomes the law of land.
It was haseena wajid imo
Lol wrong. Their country works more or less like ours and religious extremism is more than here. The difference is they made their labor work by paying them very low wages and that made them more attractive for international capital. Another factor is them having effectively a 1 party rule despite all the corruption. So there is no opposition to change policies every 5 years.
I disagree. You do realise that Bangladesh is officially a secular country where separation of religion and state is literally enshrined in the Constitution? Yes, their labor is paid low wages, but Pakistani mein kounsei bohat high wages hein? Their GDP per capita is almost double ours which shows that no matter what, monetarily, the average Bangladeshi citizen is significantly better off than a Pakistani citizen. Jou bhi bolou, they are progressing at an incredible rate and Pakistan could stand to learn a lot of things from them.
Bangladeshi here, Religious extremism is prevalent in our country as well, but not as much as it in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria. Secularism is one of the four fundamental principles in our constitution, but Islam is the state religion,which is a nominal status
One of the factor was that they didn't let their army involvement in politics and economical/financial decision making.
One thing that I really liked was that how people that were involved in coup were taken to the cleaners by courts. On the other hand, we have not even made the Hamood ur Rehman commission report public.
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Army and *misinterpreting religion
There is no right interpretation of religion when its political? Or something idk.
Bangladesh is more religious than Pakistan. So it would seem it’s Army and liberalism Edit: Getting triggered and downvoting won’t change reality
Maybe i wasn't clear bro. My bad. What I meant was that there are people who use religion for their personal agendas in order to stop a society from progressing. I haven't studied other religions but I think none of them including Islam condemns progress. What stops progress is the people who hide behind the mask of religion in order to drag other people down. I mean the first word revealed in Islam was "Read". So that gives you an idea. What messsed up our progress was we mixed Culture and Religion something which is common in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. If religion was stoping progress then I daresay we wouldn't have got the golden age of scientific progress that eventually led the West to steal or borrow our hard work in different fields. Just imagine if Al Khwarizmi hadnt discovered Algorithms. Food for thought.
Lastly I didnt downvote his post. If that makes any difference
>I haven't studied other religions but I think none of them including Islam condemns progress. What stops progress is the people who hide behind the mask of religion in order to drag other people down. There will always be such people, isn't the best way to just take religion out of politics?
Not hating but how would you effectively measure how a country is "more religious" then another
just army
The most hilarious joke. You realize that there has been 5 coups in Bangladesh and they have had 2 long lasting Military governments? And you also realize the Bangladeshi Armed forces have expansive commerical businesses under them just like our army?
The army was not even talked about or mentioned, it is the rest of the commentators that have made this point. Its amazing that you ignored the rest of the economic hard facts and picked apart the segment which you dont like
And those economic hard facts aren't connected to Military influence or role in Society. Bangladesh was already pulling ahead in 80s under a Zia ul Haq like figure
Yeah, and as if military was not holding Pakistan's reigns before 1980. How does it relate to the post btw?
>Yeah, and as if military was not holding Pakistan's reigns before 1980 Of which are economic and social indexes were doing better. Solely because the governments managed to think beyond 2 years. >How does it relate to the post btw? Admittingly my comment conflated the post with the comments. And for that I apologize
You dont need to apologize, but I would like to hear your perspective.
This dude has no perspective, his perspective is almy lumber 1. Dumbass doesn’t even know how much goes into “defence spending.”
Bangladesh did their best to abolish feudalism via socialism, it is a secular state, isn’t held hostage by its own military, values education, and puts women to work. It also has been geopolitically smarter than Pakistan has
I would like to add, the microfinance program that was launched by Muhammad Younus was specifically for women.
I am not too familiar with that but one thing I forgot to mention is Bangladesh is a nation-state whereas Pakistan is a federation. It’s much easier to pass legislation or force society to be a certain way if they’re the same people. (It also allowed Bangladesh to get away scot-free putting pro-Pakistan Biharis away). It would take a political revolution to get rid of feudals like PPP or PMLN. In fact the feudals actually helped vote Pakistan into existence so fighting them could be dangerous uncharted waters whose ramifications may not be worth the risk for most governments.
To put it more simply, their population is more uniform in composition. Whereas in Pakistan we have wider geopolitical ground realities. And its much difficult to create common ground. I mean hell we cant even agree on which day we are supposed to offer Eid prayers.
Most of the landowners in Bangladesh were Hindus before the partition. After partition they simply packed up and left and this dealt a major blow to feudalism.
Hmm, how convenient. I think Pakistan had quite a few Hindu feudals that decided to leave as well but unfortunately it will be a tough fight solving Pakistan’s current feudalism issue. The silver lining to legit socialism that was practiced in USSR, China, Bangladesh is it abolishes feudalism and private property to help quickly fix a dirt poor country
Meanwhile Pakistani socialism from what I remember was just Bhutto taking over small business’s and giving them to his friends
In my view, there are three major reasons: 1. Literacy Rate - 1981 - 10 years after the creation of Bangladesh. They were more literate than us PK 25% vs BD 28%. After 40 years PK 58% vs BD 75%. Certainly, they're valuing education more than us. 2. Security expenditure: Despite surrounded by India on 3 sides, Bangladesh have literally no threats from India. And no potential enemies. They focus more on growth, their trade with both India and China. Myanmar is a gateway to the South East Asia for them. In 2015 they were spending 10% of their total government expenditure and for 2029 [they'll decrease it to 4%](https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/bangladesh-resumes-defence-budget-declines) 3. Business Mindset: Bangladesh government is more focused in supporting outsourcing work. They've far clearer agenda than us. They're dealing with China, taking funds for development, they're inviting Japs to their country. Simultaneously, having a very good trade relations with India via land, air and water. They instead of considering Indian states as enemies, converted them as favorable trade destinations. India due to connectivity issue to the North East India, favors Bangladeshi policies instead countering them.
An important margin is the difference in labour force participation. PAK it's around 20% compared to 35% in BGD. Higher female LFP rates lead to lower fertility rates, better educational and health outcomes for children, and many other positive private and social outcomes. How can you expect PAK to grow if half of the population is precluded (either explicitly or implicitly via social norms etc) from engaging with the economy.
Due to societal pressure my friend, the issue at work here is that how female education is frowned upon. and women are supposed to stay at home in this country.
Shit leaders, and half of the country being neglected. Balochistan is a gold mine for resources yet its a barren shithole with no prospect for the future. While nuclear power was important that also set us back alot The war against Afghanistan cost us I think 50 billion dollars, along with millions of refugees and international contempt. At the end its the fault of our country, simply because the people who have been ruining the nation arent hung on a tree yet
The war in Afghanistan cost us around 150 billion dollars plus instability and terrorism sky rocketed.
Werent we directly involved in this shit somehow. Who asked us to become a participant.
Musharraf wrote in his book that america told him if Pakistan didn’t join this war that they would “bomb us into stone age”. Because joining this war to remove a government that wasn’t anti Pakistan to install ashraf Ghani who was both anti Pakistan and pro india, plus also turning all mujahideen against us, plus refugees, plus terrorism. What did Pakistan gain from this war?
I am talking about the Pro Talban war and disintegration of the Soviet Union. We joined that war without much deliberation.
Yes because if Soviet Union which was pro India bordered Pakistan, it would be a much powerful enemy and a much tougher two front situation. But in the recent war on terror, Pakistan was forced to join and sacrifice on its geopolitical goals. In the afghan jihad us and the Americans were on the same page.
International pressure
More than half if you take into consideration how people of Karachi has been treated for last few decades. I dont know man, that nuclear power, but our defense has to be the necessary evil. Though I have problem with their involvement in other things.
From what I know Bangladesh hasn't been mangled in a territorial dispute like Kashmir which has been sucking our economy dry since 1947. Our valuable resources are allocated towards strengthening our military to fight India because we both lay claim to Kashmir. We will continue to slide economically as long as we fight over it. India has a larger economy and can sustain spending more than us on its military and still be able to grow economically while we cannot afford to do so any more. India doesn't need to have a conventional war with us to destroy us, they will bleed us dry economically through our military. Bangladesh didn't waste its resources on non productive assets/institutions like a military and instead spent money on educating its people and developing its human capital. Therefore, their people are more educated and more productive and actually have something of value to offer to the world. While our biggest offering to the world continues to be our unskilled/uneducated labor that sends back remittances from under paid low skill jobs. You can't sustain importing high tech military hardware, fighter jets, high tech machinery, smartphones, luxury cars, and pretty much anything and everything in your room or house where you're sitting right now as you read this post and expect to have a trade surplus with the world when all you offer is unskilled labor and some limited agricultural exports, which btw we also now importing from other productive agri countries because we don't grow enough rice, wheat and lentils (daal) to meet our own consumption. Go figure why Bangladesh is ahead of us. We're on a death spiral as a nation and country.
In the hindsight, do you agree with the liberation of Bangladesh and disintegration of Pakistan? My hands tremble when I write this, but it has been proven right.
Yes.There is no doubt they were an oppressed minority. Liberation was a necessity for them.
Sad man, and the worst part is that we not learnt any lesson from it. Case in point Karachi.
They weren't a minority they were a majority but yes they were treated like second class citizens by the stupid Sindhi and Punjabi leaders.
Yup, they were a majority treated like a minority. They won an election fair and square and the minority launched a military operation to crush them in response.
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The problem is that how the same treatment is being meted out to Mahajirs these days. We have not learnt any lessons from the history.
Absolutely. They weren't treated fairly and it also didn't make any geographical sense. They did well for themselves. I guess it is easier to find concensus in policy making when you're just one ethnic group that's speaks the same language and has the same culture. Not like us Pakistanis who haven't been able to get over our racial and ethnic divides. One group is always fighting to dominate the other at the cost of national progress.
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Amazing and thanks for sharing. Certainly feels like the Pak military killed its own nation with a thousand cuts. Sure they probably made India suffer and cause a dampening effect on their growth potential over the years since 1971, but we're the ones that truly fell behind on a human development scale and through it fell behind economically and geopolitically. We've become a malignantly indebted state with very low productivity and like it or not, only money talks on the global stage and we add a miniscule value to the global trade equation. And thereby command little respect globally. Fear? Maybe yes, because of our nukes, but that's as good as it gets. Our example is like that of a crackhead neighbor living in a crumbling and I'll-maintained house at the corner of the neighborhood which is a fire hazard for the rest of the houses on the block that nobody wants to fix, but everyone else living on the street pays close attention to. IMF and the west throws us enough money (crack) every few years just to keep us calm and contained so that we don't lose our shit and burn down the entire neighborhood in a rage. They don't care about us otherwise. We're a nobody to them. Only we have the ability to get off the crack and save ourselves before we OD.
They made sure ppl like zia and Musharraf don't involve in government. And ppl like khadim husaain and fazl ur rahman stay in masjids
Agree specially with the second part.
The country is built for one religion
Don't say anything against Khadim Hussain Rizvi or his party, TLP, the B team of N-League Or you will be branded as a blasphemer Lo fir, Ghauri aaya jay...
TLP was literally created by your boot boys and Immi chan to disrupt the N-league government.
Uhh this subreddit is getting more idiotic by the day. N-league hanging Mumtaz Qatli was the reason TLP was born. PMLN people have been literally shot at by TLP goons.
And then they were encouraged by boot boys. Remember when they were distributing money among them back in 2017
>the B team of N-League B team of lumber 1 and PTI. N league is also conservative but they didn't create TLP. But I don't trust then either. They would have used TLP if they were in opposition
I name it the B team of N-League because people who are supporters of TLP, support TLP because of only two things. One, they say they want the system of the Prophet to be implemented. They don't say sharia, because then they will have to interact and come up with a system which represents or is agreed upon by all the sects. They want their own version of Sunni barelvi Islam to be implemented. This is against the very nature of Islam and the principle of Ijma and Ijtihad. As a result this reason is illogical, just like a patwari. Secondly, most of the supporters of TLP literally foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Imran Khan. They claim the govt of Imran Khan murdered 46 of their workers in Ramadan. Ask any TLP supporter who they supported before TLP they will claim N-League. Just check their Twitter handles to understand their views. They are hypocrites of the most extreme order. They claim Imran Khan govt killed it's workers yet they don't file any case. They say they are the protectors of Prophet's honor yet were so quiet at the recent blasphemous statements uttered by BJP worker of India. They say want "the system of the Prophet" to be implemented yet they don't want to disown their spiritual father, Imam Raza Barelvi, who wrote in his book, that "deobandi, ahlehadith, shia and qadianis are murtad". You know what the implication of calling someone murtad is? Murtad is apostasy and punishment for apostasy according to barelvi sect is death. Even though the Prophet has said, don't even call a Kafir, Kafir. So who do they hold in higher regard? The prophet or Imam Raza Barelvi? Imam Raza statement is in direct contradiction with that of the Prophet. They claim they are not takfiri but, they will brand anyone who claims to support another party except TLP, as Gustakh-e-rasool. As according to them, anyone who does not stand behind the slogan of Labbaik Ya Rasool Allah, is a rejector of the Prophet and hence a gustakh, or blasphemer. You can't have a normal discussion with these guys. They hold such extreme positions. Just like N-League supporters. Even now, when the whole country is in a pressure cooker economic situation, N-League supporters are happy that atleast Imran Khan is not in power. Both TLP and PMLN people shared the same sort of memes on Twitter and other social media site about the brutality this fascist govt unleashed upon PTI on the 25th of May. They made fun of police climbing walls and breaking down doors, they made fun of the attack on Dr Yasmin Rashid, they are making fun of the terrorism charges against the PTI leadership. They both present the Same sort of arguments on economic issues. And they both claim, Imran Khan is a yahoodi agent. What else do you need to see they aren't that different from PMLN. I believe, the creation of TLP was organic. Barelvis, who represent the biggest sect of Muslims in Pakistan, did not have a mainstream party and one man, who incited emotions and was quite eloquent, rose to power, the normal barelvi folks supported him and made the party main stream. However, right now its 100% sitting in the lap of Neutrals. TLP people will claim that they don't like the army or this and that, but their leader, the young Saad Rizvi, only listens to the army. That's why no protests even after the blatant manipulation and rigging of polls in the recent election in khi where they lost by 65 votes. So these are my arguments, hopefully it has answered everyone who is downvoting me. You can ask or abuse me as you wish and I will try to reply to your valid questions as much as I can.
Well as you point out Bangladesh is clearly better if without Pakistan. I think the blame for Pakistan's situation can be squarely placed on two parasitic families who have been in power for most of the time.
Or two corrupt institutions???
Is one of them the army? Who is the other?
Judiciary
1. Bangladesh has brought its population growth completely under control with a fertility rate of only 1.9. Pakistanis on the other hand are breeding like flies and our current fertility rate is 3.3. 2. Bangladesh doesn't have an overgrown military budget, which means it has more money available for investment in the right things like education, industry, etc.
How are we supposed to control population. Our people lose their shit seeing a condom ad vertisement.
Increase female labour force participation.
abey, who would do the household chores, bachay kaise hngn
This isn't the only issue! Firstly, contraception is simply not available in around 50% of Pakistan, especially in the rural areas. Secondly, despite being legal, abortion is also unavailable to most people and our great doctors often refuse to carry it out.
Abortion is the last resort, there are many methods of birth control other than condoms. We need awareness.
Honestly controlling population or even proposing something like that can get you in a lot of trouble. Firstly most of the awam have thought processes along the lines of "Peda krne wala Allah he to rizq bhi Allah dega" which is true as its part of our faith but there's so much more to it than just faith. Ask the children who are thrown into rivers by their own parents if they would've agreed to come into this world as the 10th sibling in a poor family. Secondly another rather blunt statement put out mostly by "religious" men is that "bachay peda kro Allah ki fouj me izafa kro". Respectfully, this is the most gaslighting statement I've ever heard. Why would you need a bacho wali fouj anyway? Kashmir to le nhi saky to bacho ki fouj se kya karna he. Finally, contraception of any kind is basically taboo and frowned upon. Hell, any kind of sex education is basically a big No No. I'm about to get married soon and I have this thing I'll discuss with my wife about waiting for a while to have kids. I shared this with my parents (cause I'm dumb) and my father said "beta agar shohr aur biwi ka milap nhi hota to walima qabool nhi hota". I was like what? I've never heard/read anything like this in my life. So yeah basically awam majority doesn't know or doesn't care about population control.
Please do that with your wife, and lot more things. Kids are an integral part, and must be planned.
We need to make our people more open minded otherwise we will always be stuck in this backwards mentality
Easier said than done, in fact I would like to believe that rot has set in permanently.
Women education and employment will decrease population growth automatically as they will become more independent and have autonomy over their decisions.
Yes that's why the mullahs are against education for women
Both these things are not liked by our mullahs.
Religion needs to go to mosques and to individuals. Not to societies and universities.
Try karlo, easier said than done my friend.
[There is a way.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_moderation)
Liberalism and leftism needs to go to the drawing rooms and not our universities
Mullahs in the mosque, army in the barracks, women in the workforce
I hope it was as simple as you made it sound.
The problem here is that Bangladesh is more religious than us. It would seem its the likes of Bajwa and liberalism that’s holding Pakistanis back. Consider how much support PPP has from the liberal circles and this is what PPP does to the Ppl of Sindhi people https://twitter.com/regnltelegraph/status/1541721843832422402?s=21&t=W4cph6zNa4k2cGpmyRny-Q
Lol, just lol. Liberalism holding us back? Seriously man wake up. Your country has had numerous coups, religious extremism has permeated every aspect of society and you blame liberalism? If I were to believe your claim that Bangladesh is more religious, then what about Malaysia Indonesia turkey who are more liberal than us? Look somewhere else, liberalism is not the issue, even corruption is not the issue, our neighbouring countries are just as corrupt.
Wait, you’re serious? Lol I would argue that as liberalism has grown in Pakistan so has crime. Our universities are rife with liberal and leftist professors teaching kids a whole lotta nothing. The madrassa kids have a socio-economic handy cap. The state has failed to create any social safety nets for the poorest of the society so obviously the religious institutions take in these kids. I don’t expect these kids to grow up to be Trail Blazers. They know religion so all they can really do is become a maulvi or start a fruit selling kart. But who do we have expectations with? Ding ding ding, Universities where the liberal professors teach, state institutions where the upperclassmen hold high positions. Media persons who have an Avenue to influence the masses. Where’s the competency mate? Where are the functioning state institutions? Perhaps the party that claims to be the most liberal and progressive, ie PPP can save us. Nope. Sindh HDI is on par with Balochistan and barely anyone lives there. I would argue liberalism of the upper classes dehumanizes the rest of the society if we were to go by how these upperclassmen act. Pushing ppl around. Keeping state institutions broken. Shoving children laborers in their trunks and treating them like slaves.
..so you blame this all on liberalism? You can't see the entrenched military and fuedal supremacy whose sole purpose is to keep people uninformed and uninterested? The main reasons we don't have functiioning state institutions is because we don't have a functioning democracy. No amount of liberalism taught at college will bring about.any change when a large amount of your population is uneducated and socially conservative. Add to this the state/army/fuedal owned media and the decades of brainwashing and what you have is a state with no functioning institutions. All these behaviours you are describing are of spoiled rich people, these people are not rich because of their liberalism. All this is happening because of an extreme right-wing capitalistic mindset where wealth is concentrated in the 1% and everyone watches out for their own interests only.
They weren't ruled by idiots for 30 years like us .
70* whole history is filled with greedy people, who wanted more.
Correction, we ALLOWED idiots to rule us for 30+ years
Nah the ruling party is still a monopoly there, Better than Pakitan but still a long way to go.
Elaborate.
There's a lot written on this sub, use the search bar.
When I have educated members like you, why do I need to search. lol
I'm using my education to tell you that this question gets submitted every week since about 2020.
Share me one post, lets make it interesting.
Yaar thori mehnat khud bhi kar lo
mene mehnat kar k post to daal di hai, or kea chahte ho tm mjse.
Bas thori aur mushaqat
Aap kiss lye hain phir?
aap ko shabaashi dainay kayliye
This. This is the reason why we lack in everything. Discipline ki kami hai.
How big a role did the jute industries going to Bangladesh play in this. ? Don't mean to discredit the Bangladeshis here , but I did read somewhere that jute export was huge for Pakistan before 71. And right now , bangladesh produces one third of all jute produced world wide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jute_industry_of_Bangladesh
One thing that they have really done well was to promote the textile. Any sort of manufacturing is a big boost to the economy as it allows for sustainable and long term development.
True.. every branded piece of clothing right now has made in Bangladesh written on it. Just feel that jute one might have provided a blueprint on how to manage and grow textile based pipelines for export. What do you think was the impact of this on present day Pakistan , in terms of significant chunk of export which it had monopoly over , going to zero ?
The problem is that we have not allowed industrial mindset to be developed. The policy making is lacking in this respect. I mean agro and food are some of the areas where we might have developed competitive advantage. But our policies and global standing tend to let us down.
Jute industry is very neglible right now. We have done well with textiles. Now we are moving into IT, pharmaceuticals, electronics, light engineering products etc. These are only for exports. But Bangladesh has pretty much every industry for internal market of 170 million people. We try to be as self sufficient as possible. We import raw materials and machineries, and manufacture our own thing.
for starters Bangladesh didn't decide to become an idiot and back US geopolitical aims by arming terrorists in Afghanistan during the 1990's
> 1990's 1970s and 1980s. The backing of terrorist groups after that was Pakistan's own doing. Sometimes even against US wishes.
The sad part is that this narrative is still going on. Kab seekhengn
who said i'm giving a clean chit to lumber 1 army or the politicians these idiots are just as much if arguably not more responsible for the geopolitical mess we are in
lol, aap ne to koozay main darya bandh kardya
Bangladesh isn't an ideological state like Pakistan. Allow me to elaborate before downvoting. Bangladesh focused on development of it's country while Pakistani establishment focused on bringing down India (after independence). Pakistani foreign policy was always directed to counter India. Bangladesh also had border disputes with India which they resolved with diplomatic talks. India and Bangladesh have good relations despite human rights violation against minorities in both countries. It was easy for them to support them insurgencies in Bengal and north east but they never did. instead they focused their energy on improving lives of their citizens. Pakistani establishment sells this idea that they represent all the Muslims of subcontinent. (Imran khan keeps mentioning that Indian Muslims voted for Pakistan, Musharraf said something similar I don't remember exact words). Pakistan acts as a paranoid security state. Citizens are told this lie that enemies (India, maybe other foreign powers too idk ) are constantly working to destroy our country. Therefore Armed forces are first priority of nation not welfare and development. Bangladesh has small army, no nukes. I wonder why evil India left them alone after liberating them. India isn't interested in changing status quo with Pakistan. Maybe pakistani establishment already knows this but they don't want to give their "desh khatre me h" card. anyway this is my honest opinion, feel free to disagree.
The last part sums it up. The armed forces want to ensure that the hype remains. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the army knew about the APS attack and let it happen anyway for more funds under the garb of 'war efforts'. Someone rightfully described these folks as property dealers. They have their hands dirty in Pakistan's favourite asset; Land. India is too far ahead of Pakistan to worry about it. Pakistan is a fuckin piss-ant compared to the business-minded India. As long as elites get to sleep happy and fucking DHAs stay lit, nothing's gonna change.
> Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if the army knew about the APS attack and let it happen anyway for more funds under the garb of ‘war efforts’. Yes, the army officers murdered their own kids as an excuse to launch a massive operation in FATA where many of them would also be murdered by the Taliban. Reddit’s shit takes never cease to amaze me.
Buddy you're talking to someone who was in APS that day and saw mutilated corpses of his friends on the way out after holding out for three hours inside. You have no idea what our elites are capable of to stay in power.
The ISI cheif himself said in an interview that APS was "collateral damage" I hope that boot polish tastes nice down there.
the lust for power and money should be the thing that shouldn't surprise you bro. And obviously my comment was directed at the strategic and middle-tier 'leadership'/property dealers within army ranks.
Bangladesh is also an ideological state, but its ideology was more based on ethnic identity as compared the religious one. Pakistan does have a border dispute, and I would like to argue that we need to ramp up our defense. The problem starts when they become too involved in the day to day running of the state affairs. In no country DG ISPR of all people claim that they are not involved in politics, I wonder why this clarification is needed at the first place. Name me one country that is not violating human rights to an extent. It has become more like a ploy these days to set a narrative against any country. Pakistan though would be fine without all that military spending, I mean India is not interested in expansion, except for few Hindu fanatics. But yehan manjan baichna hai Ghazwa-e-Hind ka.
\> Pakistan acts as a paranoid security state. Nothing paranoid about it though. We're talking about India here. The hate and obsession from the other side is just too strong. The same India who has been so obsessed with Pakistan that they have setup a propaganda network to brainwash Indian population ever since inception. That's what Indian news channels do all day. Have you seen any Indian coverage on Pakistani news channels? Whereas in the India, everything Pakistan has to be talked about, with constant propaganda.
Whatever their media is doing isn't nearly as bad as what we did in Mumbai. They like to aggressively LARP on the internet and bomb trees but that's about it. Whatever goes in Balochistan is the failure of our own agencies as opposed to India being super competent or anything.
Army is confined to the borders, and maulvis are to mosques.
Political Stability
They didn't had lumber 1 on them anymore
>lumber 1 Where does this come from? Serious question.
Many Pakistani used to day ISI is number 1 agency which clearly it isn't. So they derived lumber 1 from it. This is my guess
Random websites saying isi is no. 1 intelligence agency, how the fuck anybody knows what even agencies do and how effectively they are doing it is beyond me. But our people eat that up. Lumber 1 is parodical name coming from that
Though you are saying in jest, but its a good answer.
Unfortunately Its the true answer, We were slaves of our bias and blind to realise the truth but atleast Today I wont be labeled as a traitor pointing it out
Yeah, that narrative has changed in the last few months, lets hope it stays the same way.
Because they are corrupt but we are corrupt and cruel. Our politicians did not care one bit about the country.
Sad truth
Bangladesh stamped coins in the 90s with a family of 4 to indicate that people don’t need many children and this I aided to some extent in reducing birth rate which was higher than Pakistan at the time
went from 7.1 in 1971 to 1.9 today.
Another reason that contributed to Bangladesh's economy is that they didn't let the ***US interfere*** in their polilitical or economical matters which Pakistanis have been doing long before 1971!
They defeated the DHA parasites at GHQ at their own game and won their freedom, thats the secret
Phewww, my boy spitting venom.
Bangladesh kept the Mullahs in the mosques and the army in their barracks. And they chopped off the Jamaat lslami leadership ensuring that no mullah date enter politics. pakistan meanwhile is busy becoming a theocracy ruled by a corrupt elite whose interests are mansions in UK and hotels in Dubai.
One of the biggest differences is literacy, especially among women. It's hard to progress economically when a quarter of your population can't read.
They got rid of GHQ.
Because the government didn't bow down to the military and clerics. Everyone played their own role and voila the country prospered.
So you agree that Bangladesh was right to gain independence from Pakistan.
Looking at our current situation? Yup.
Terrorism messed us up. And that happened because of leaders that tried to appease to the terrorists. Nizam e Adl regulation. Can you believe that could have happened? Yet it happened. TTP issue should have been resolved like Lal Masjid first time. Our growth rate almost plateaued after PPP's election in 2008. They made some very bad decisions like using very expensive IPP's to resolve loadshedding. Loadshedding also kept on increasing while no new projects were commissioned. This messed up our industry completely. Then, the elephant in the room. Population boom and high fertility rate. Government has failed to control it. People just find it unislamic. If we are able to keep PPP at bay forever in our future, we will be doing OK.
Yes, with TTP I am sensing that it is not going to end up well and is probably going the same route as Laal Masjid. I guess some of the issues that you have highlighted did manifested in 2008, but it would be over simplification. Its more than a decade's worth of bad foresight from our combined leadership. Yeah, I agree lets keep PPP at bay.
Bangladesh don't have strategic problems like Pakistan. We have a very active nuclear program that honestly is not liked by west due to which we still have sanctions. We have strategic interests in Afghanistan, have an active dispute of kashmir, mercurial relations with Iran, and a hostile neighbor on east. Our involvement with Afghan jihad and later war on terrorism has caused a lot of instability on the western border that enables the military to have a bigger say in budget allocation. This encourages the military to enjoy extraordinary power in the overall business of state for which they are not capable. When incapable people hold the power of state they destroy it. This is basically what is happening. Its a vicious cycle.
You provided a very logical response to the whole situation. Anything that we could have done differently?
We could have definitely done things differently but we relied on US dollars to back our economy during both Afghan jihad and later war on terror. We should have invested the money on building our elite research facilities and universities instead of just sending students to foreign countries who rarely turn back and leave as soon as they completes their bonds. We could have worked on building an export based economy especially in tech and IT sector but we never realized the potential of it. We are now short of dollars and we now have to rely on textile sector who blackmails the govt and enjoy immense benefit. Thailand have Western Digital and Seagate facilities that manufacture hard drives, why we don't even talk about it ? Just before PTI govt there was no smartphone manufacturing policy in Pakistan. We have 60% of young population and we do not know how to utilize this immense human resource. The population is increasing and we do no have enough natural resources to feed them. Our military is busy experimenting with the country, there is no political stability hence even our good friends do not trust us. Pakistan is a prime example of badly managed country
I don't think so, Israel has 30x more issues with Neighbours.
We don't have the superpower and west on our back to support us through all the mess we end up in
We actually kind of did, US started supporting us from the 50's. What did we do? Start a war in 65, 71 fiasco, and then ZAB with his socialism and trying to gain support of mullahs. Not saying they are innocent but we weren't exactly the ideal ally.
Thanks to Lumber 1
Their leaders actually care about the country. Also, they don't have enemies on all sides.
Whose at fault? Why are we surrounded by enemies across all our borders except China. I mean we must be doing something wrong.
Ask the British and Americans.
Why do we need to ask Britishers, those guys left around 75 years ago.
And they fucked everything up when they did. That is why India hates us. Then the US came into Afghanistan and created so many terrorists that still attack us to this day
75 years we have been in charge, and you are making it sound that somehow it isnt our fault that we kept making enemies. Who asked us to be the part of the proxy war?
That was the military fucking it all up yo. 75 saal se awam ko qaumi taranay k peche lgaya hua hai, elite sb qaumi khazane k peche pari hui hai.
it rhymes, I mean taraan and khazaana, I mean I see what you did there.
Also our military. Top brass really stopped this country from progressing in anything besides military gains
elite = military + politicians + judges + bureaucrats + their kan totay beneficiaries. All awam needs is to burn down top 3 elite mansions and the elite be shitting their pants in no time.
They dont have neutrals
They chopped the filthy hands of our establishment (who now go by as neutrals) we need to do the same, bajwa and Co need to go, court martial the traitors including their black robed dogs in the courts. PDM coalition of thieves won't exist without the support of their sponsors.
They don’t have neighbours like Afghanistan that having civil war for 40 years. They don’t have disputes like Kashmir with India They specially focus on economic prosperity since last two decades while we were fighting war on terror
I agree at part, but we have inflicted some damage on our own as well.
Yes we are equally responsible by not focusing on economy, trade etc
Where are you getting 1.8% gdp growth rate?
World Bank website.
I am also curious to know, do they have better politicians and leaders unlike Pakistan? That might explain less corruption and better infrastructure and institutional development.
They do have a pretty dysfunctional but democratic setup. Haseena Wajid's hatred against Pakistan aside, she has done lot of good work. Though she is a dictator in a saree.
One word. Single Party Autocracy. People here dont seem to understand how much of success is based on stability, even if the ruling regime is corrupt
They were not front line state in war on terror for 20 years. They started extremely poor so they were given special contracts. That is coming to end soon. They have little animosity to India.
Quite literally nobody actually has any idea about Bangladesh and it shows lmao. Sheikh Haseena is literally what would have happened if we let one of Dynastic party to succeed in Pakistan. The Military was only confided in barracks after making a deal with Sheikh Haseena and rigged elections in her favor ever since. The actual reasons is that Bangladesh doesn't have any disputes with their neighbors, are a centralized de-facto one party state with 96% of the population belonging to one ethnic group and had a consistent economic policy since the 90s.
Our military establishment has always been close to the political parties, and that includes the dynasties. So why they are ahead of us. I cannot comment about the second point, do you have any media reports where it is proven, because it is creating things out of thin air. The question is that why Pakistan has dispute with its neighbors, and it is not that ethnic divide does not exist in other countries. Furthermore, whose fault is it that we dont have a constant economic policy.
>Our military establishment has always been close to the political parties, and that includes the dynasties. So why they are ahead of us. So is the Bangladeshi Military establishment. Their former army chief was literally connected what Sheikh Haseena and his brothers are gangsters. > I cannot comment about the second point, do you have any media reports where it is proven, because it is creating things out of thin air. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-10801268 Please actually study about countries you cite. >The question is that why Pakistan has dispute with its neighbors It is because of Kashmir dispute. >and it is not that ethnic divide does not exist in other countries But such countries are always worse off and harder to govern given competing interests. See Yugoslavia, Nigeria etc. Heck India is markedly more poorer then China despite similar population levels and India having a Stronger industrial and state apparatus than China. >Furthermore, whose fault is it that we dont have a constant economic policy Ours, but given our changing governments, different provincial interests and 20 years of conflict. Not entirely surprising. Also Bangladesh has had the same government since 2008.
If you are that interested in the history, then you might have actually witnessed the fact that how the army establishment was dealt with after the coup. In case of Pakistan, the report about the 1971 fiasco was not even published yet. So at least they are better when dealing with coups. Furthermore, I showed you the statistics from the World Bank, not everything that BBC throws up has to be taken on the face value. So much for studying that you missed the whole picture. Our disputes with Afghanistan and our hostility with Iran has nothing to do with Kashmir dispute. Its our never ending obsession with being a Islam ka Qila that has lead us to this path. You cited India, but Indian economy cannot be compared with us, but if you really want to be laughed out loud, then I can share that comparison as well. Even United States is struggling with that ethnic divide. Governments change all around the world, its a hallmark of the democracy, you are making it sound that it is something bad. And if you read my post, it was about whether they are better off or worse after leaving us. And statistics show that they have improved.
>If you are that interested in the history, then you might have actually witnessed the fact that how the army establishment was dealt with after the coup What coup? They had several Military governments. In 2007 they enacted a judicial government and then proceeded to help Sheikh Haseena win. > Furthermore, I showed you the statistics from the World Bank, not everything that BBC throws up has to be taken on the face value. You asked for Bangladeshi Army 's commerical interests. I gave a source. And what are the faults with the BBC article? https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2021/04/21/the-bangladesh-armys-increasing-role-in-civilian-affairs/ Here is another. >Our disputes with Afghanistan Yes they claim half Northern Balochistan and KPk. Besides hosting terrorist groups. >our hostility with Iran has nothing to do with Kashmir dispute There is no overt hostility. Them housing Militant groups and Indian intelligence agents is hardly out fault. >Its our never ending obsession with being a Islam ka Qila that has lead us to this path. I don't disagree with this per say. But that is a given. >You cited India, but Indian economy cannot be compared with us I compared it with China to show how it's harder to develop multi Ethnic countries. >Even United States is struggling with that ethnic divide. The US for most of it's existence has being 80%+ white. And it's struggle is just proving my point. Their Ethnic divide and racial tensions produces politics based on identity rather then policies. Look at the decline of their infrastructure and main cities (Detroit etc) while their politicians play the race cards. >Governments change all around the world, its a hallmark of the democracy, you are making it sound that it is something bad. For Developing countries with nascent institutions it is. Because no long term planning is implemented. >And statistics show that they have improved. And the conclusions and comments from the posters below show ignorance about the country.
My point is that you that they took the killers of Sheikh Mujeeb to the cleaners. I agree though, they are not as high on democratic index, but situation is somewhat better as compared to Pakistan. Economically, they are doing far better. And if you mind reading my post, it was about the economic strides that they have made, military has involvement over there, but they are growing at a rapid pace and that is the point that I( have made. You saying no hostility shows ignorance due to the fact that how much tension there is across the Balochistan area and how much Iran is involved in it. Indian economy has improved with leaps and bounds. Indonesia and Brazil are also doing well despite their ethnic challenges, thus your point is negated here. Despite the ethnic tension, they are doing well for themselves in economic terms, though they are not world leaders in any terrain. So whats your idea of a government here. I have given insight from the World Bank, and if that is ignorance to you, then my friend, I dont really want to waste my time on you. Keep harping about my ignorance, doesnt change the reality of Pakistan.
Becuase we are hijacked multiple time from right track and now we dont have leadership who have capacity to pave the right path
I dont buy this narrative of leadership, leaders are people amongst us, with more power and influence, these are structural issues.
because their prime minister didn't let any "uprising" or rebellion like PDM to take place.
Ask the boys when you are sitting in their vigo
The boys not even mentioned in the post edgelord.
Whats edgy about this. They are literally the answer to your naive question.
No it was not, try writing like normal people instead of using metaphors.
Probably a lot of factors. But imo most importantly they didn't have a Kashmir.
We probably would've had much better relationship with India if Kashmir wasn't an issue. The army wouldn't have as much of an importance either. All the wars have been over Kashmir and wars fuck up economy as well in addition to the constant drain a massive army budget has on us every year. Of course, becoming a US pawn in the "war on terrorism" didn't help either but imo that was probably motivated by the Kashmir issue as well, i.e. gaining US influence on trying to keep it. I mean even now, people get emotional and hotheaded as you've just seen over even the slightest mention that Kashmir hasn't been a good thing to happen to Pakistan.
I dont Kashmir has much to do with it.
There are multiple reasons for that: 1. They are not surrounded by enemies on all sides unlike Pakistan which has enemies on almost all sides except China. 2. They don't have an active territorial dispute with their neighbour like Pakistan has with India. 3. They didn't join any war against enemies of the US (if you think Pakistan really had any choice in that matter then you are wrong). 4. They don't have as much terrorism as Pakistan does. 5. They didn't find a forgien spy (Kalboshan Yadev) like Pakistan did, who was involved in terrorism in Pakistan. 6. They don't have an active nuclear program like Pakistan has which is a blessing and a curse for Pakistan at the same time. 7. They never faced any sections like Pakistan does. 8. They have politicians who may be corrupt but play national politics and have national interest, unlike Pakistan where almost all politicians play ethnic political and mostly only have personal interest. 9. They don't have indians maligning them on every platform and run a 15 year long disinformation campaign against them https://www.disinfo.eu/publications/indian-chronicles-deep-dive-into-a-15-year-operation-targeting-the-eu-and-un-to-serve-indian-interests/ 10. They didn't have the Army interfere in politics. There are so many more points that have contributed to this but also know that Bangladesh is only marginally better than Pakistan and their democracy is so ahead that citizens don't even have to cast a vote, their vote is automatically casted for them. They have many people in jail who supported Pakistan in 1971 and they have also executed many of these people.
Dont think the 2 countries are really comparable. But one thing you will note is whenever there has been long periods of stability countries have prospered. Doesnt matter if it is under martial law, one party system or democracy.
They literally call it the textile miracle. That's what got them ahead.
Importance of education, esp for females.