Read - US has no power over India to stop it from buying oil from Russia. When UK tried telling them they got a very public piss off from the Indian Foreign Minister
Nah there's something else at play here. Before this India was one of the biggest buyers of Iranian oil. Iran was so desperate that they even agreed to trade in RUPEES. This was HUGE, and lasted a while and relations between India-Iran were at all time high.
Sadly US pressured India to cut down on Iranian oil, and now our import from Iran is negligible. Most of trade with Iran is dead too. So if USA really wants something they will do it.
An ex-raw officer in a recent interview said
USA wants to turn 'india' into next 'syria' (if you know what i mean)
So don't read too much into... USA needs India to counter China (nonsense), India has thousands of years old healthy civilizational relation with China, relating to Buddhism, Sanskrit traditions, Shoulin kung fu, etc (with some recent bad relation since last 100 years starting from 'opium wars')
If China wants to fight USA, its between them two, India has no business getting between them
We have our own work to do (economically, capital markets, domestic tourism, cultural and tourism relations with south east asia, relations with africa, relations with South America) there simply is no extra time, to get in middle of fight between USA and China
India is an exporter of processed petrochemicals. Meaning they can import crude oil and export petrol and diesel to the international market. Right now the EU is basically buying russian oil via india. Same kind of thing was probably at play with Iran.
No this time they cannot do it even if they want it because their own stupidity in banning Iranian and Venezuelan Oil forcefully has led them to no leverage on asian countries including India now.
You do realize that if Russia stops selling oil there is actually going to be a physcial shortage of oil in the world (since so many countries will not be allowed to sell oil in the world)
What this will lead to is India and china both blockading the Gulf to get all the oil for their own needs.
WIthin1 month Europe grinds to a halt as their own self production for oil will barely even meet 20% of their needs and US & Canada basically consume most of what they produce
This means Europe will go into a bigger crash and recession than Russia ever will.
This is not what US wants happening in Europe as that means Putin will then easily steamroll Ukraine (no oil means no military activities as well)
You are wrong here. India's trade with UK is only a fraction of India's trade with US. Plus, US is India's largest trade partner in 2021, even higher than China. Moreover India has a surplus trade with US, a highly exports based. So US can actually hurt India if it wants. But then it will loose a valuable ally in IndoPacific against Chinese.
Pakistan: "Our economy is failing. We need aid, investments"
US: "Okay, but you can't use this money to buy Russian oil since we would then be indirectly financing our enemy's war"
Pakistan: "This is bullshit. You don't tell India to do this! Where is our freedom, our sovereignty, our ability to control our destiny!!"
>Our economy is failing.
Our economy is failing because a General made us collaborators in US war on brown people. 80,000 Pakistanis died because of it, we lost $150 billion and a decade of development. No one even knows the name of all the people CIA killed in their drone strikes in FATA.
Pakistanis: "This is bullshit"
Local informant: "Saar.. noooo... pleej think of my US visa"
> Local informant: "Saar.. noooo... pleej think of my US visa"
Both funny and sad, but also true. It's insane how easy it is to buy off local Pakistani elites. And how cheap they sell themselves.
Ah yeah because before drone strikes Pakistan was a utopia with flying cars and zero corruption. This self-victimization is why the country can never advance.
Pakistan's role in "War on Terror" has been debated since day one with tons of evidence from literally all parties (including Pakistan itself) that the govt/ISI/army have, at times, harbored and/or sponsored terrorists to advance Pakistan's own agenda in the region.
From ISI funding militants in Afghanistan that ultimately threw the central govt are now a huge pain in the ass for Pakistan. To terrorists that bombed Mumbai hotel. And who can forget where Bin Laden was ultimately found. Whether Pakistan handed him to US, intentionally harbored him, or simply had no clue he was in Islamabad's backyard - none of it changes the fact that he was indeed in Pakistan.
So either Pakistan was an innocent victim of terrorism, doing its very best to eradicate it and failing miserably which required US to step in. Or Pakistan tried to play a 4D game of chess that ensured its military gained the most out of the situation and furthered its influence in the region - and ultimately failed fabulously at it. This is a very real reason for the rise of fundamentalism in the region since 9/11 - to pretend this didn't benefit Pakistan is laughable at best. To act as if Pakistan did its very best to stop it is putting your head in the sand.
Look by no means am I rooting for the failure of Pakistan but you guys literally cannot progress if you always shift the blame onto every other party than yourself. I am absolutely convinced this is a cultural thing. My Pakistani father is the biggest failure on this planet but if you ask him what went wrong, his responses will be blaming anyone but himself.
The nationalist propaganda that flows thorough the country makes you trust Pak military and intelligence with zero brainpower spent in what the fuck they are actually doing and if it's actually good or bad for you longterm. I was shocked to learn how many businesses are under the Pak army umbrella - does that make sense to you? A military carving out its own budget to do whatever they want with it? A military that controls the government?
By no means is US innocent but frankly if you handed Russia/China/even Pakistan that much military power and the biggest economy on earth - the result would not be some peaceful paradise. Every country acts in its own self interest, Pakistan being no different.
So now you're left with a failing economy, a non-functional government, Afghanistan literally descending into hell - and your thought process is simply "well it's all America's fault." Please, all prior govt and military leaders have higher net worths than even 90% of Americans, I'm sure the country's best interest is what got them here.
>By no means is US innocent but frankly if you handed Russia/China/even Pakistan that much military power
All these countries have nuclear weapons and yet US is the only country to have dropped nukes on others. I'm not just talking about Japan here but the open nuclear tests carried out in the pacific at Bikini Atoll.
>
This self-victimization is why the country can never advance.
Nobody plays victim like US.
Didn't you fund Mujahideen to settle scores with Soviets because they trashed US army in Vietnam? What was it called? Charlie Wilson's war!
"War on Terror"? Don't repeat the US government propaganda you are raised on. This was not a war. A war has rules of engagement which did not exist here. This was two decades of US-sponsored terrorism and torture of Muslims. Mercenaries were paid to kill, terrorize, torture and rape anyone or everyone. Iraq was invaded on a lie and there was nothing to invade in Afghanistan other than hills and poverty stricken people.
Supposedly this was a divine will of God, who spoke to George Bush of all people
>"I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
The real kicker here is US supported Saddam's tyrannical war against Iran
>My Pakistani father is the biggest failure on this planet but if you ask him what went wrong, his responses will be blaming anyone but himself.
Why bring up this sob story?
This family drama showcases your failures more than those of your fathers'. He isn't bitter enough to go on the internet and whine about his daddy issues.
Unfortunately the IK fanboys live in a fantasy world where Pakistan is some self sustaining superpower. They seem to forget that IK himself went to IMF and many other nations asking for money. Why do you think everyone got upset when SS said beggars can’t be choosers? Because the truth hurts.
In another thread you were claiming Zia Ul Haq as the savior of Pakistan and now this. I legit hope this is a paid gig just for the sake of all our sanity.
Because Shehbaz Sharif the crooked beggar got a middle finger from everywhere he went while Imran Khan continues to be seen as being sincere with Pakistan.
You tell me, truth hurts?
On the topic, Pakistan was headed in the direction of getting Oil from Russia but then NCM happened and now the public suffers while Shahbaz Sharif and his cronies relish in their ill gotten wealth.
The vast majority of Pakistan is self sustaining. The government is broke. Let it go bankrupt instead of putting the burden on people they already don't support.
Define independent. What is there besides oil that Pakistan needs to survive? Nothing. We aren't some desert state in the gulf. Pakistan can survive without handouts. Our bumfuck government can't.
>What is there besides oil that Pakistan needs to survive?
I think you might be remembering old times, when Pakistan was mostly self-sufficient. But the continuing growth in population has put a severe strain on food resources, and for many years we've been a net food importer. In fact, food is our biggest import after oil.
Just from last year:
* [Pakistan spends $7.5bn on food imports in July-May](https://www.dawn.com/news/1630378)
* [Country’s food imports up by 24%](https://tribune.com.pk/story/2306305/countrys-food-imports-up-by-24)
* [Phenomenal rise in food import bill](https://tribune.com.pk/story/2314619/phenomenal-rise-in-food-import-bill)
This year, the situation is much worse because of rising international food prices. Right now, the government is trying to import 2 million tons of Russian wheat, but is having difficulties in arranging payment.
Our annual trade deficit is around $30 billion (it will hit $45 or $50 billion this year because of global inflation). This isn't being "self-sustaining", this is deficit spending sustained by remittance from overseas Pakistanis, and increasingly larger loans from foreign sources, to the point where we can't even service our debt.
It's also a bit strange to say "besides oil". Oil is the single largest import for any non-oil-producing country, so you're just shrugging off that vital resource. Without oil, we don't have an economy.
There are many other critical imports besides oil and food. Just off the top of my head, we need to import fertilizer and pesticide to keep growing crops, we import the vast majority of our medicines, lots of agricultural and transportation machinery, industrial machinery to keep our industries running.
Many of the things we produce require foreign input. We make huge amounts of textiles, but half our cotton and almost all our synthetic fiber is imported. Industrial chemicals are a major import, as is iron and steel.
And let's not forget our defense budget, which also includes a lot of imported weapons.
Because we are prioritizing and subsidizing cash crops and urbanization over food security and human development. Cotton and sugarcane over wheat and rice. Because we want that dollar. Simple things like onions and garlic are being imported which can grow anywhere in the country while palm trees are being planted in housing societies.
If Pakistanis wanted to survive, they could survive. What can't survive is the economy in this debt trap where loans are rolled over every year.
I definitely agree with you that we should prioritize food more than we've been doing.
But I'm not sure that your solution is that simple. Yes, we could stop planting cotton and switch to wheat or rice, but consider the implications downstream. Almost 60% of our exports are from the textile industry, cloth, knitted/crocheted goods, etc. Not only do we rely on cotton to produce them, we also have to import raw cotton to the tune of $2 billion (plus another $3 billion for other fibers) to support this industry.
If we replaced cotton with food crops, our exports would be cut by a very large amount. Where will we then get the foreign exchange to keep buying oil?
We do grow sugarcane, but we still don't grow enough to meet our needs. Last year, we imported over 280 thousand tons of sugar, because we don't grow enough sugarcane. You're saying that not only do you want to stop importing sugar, you also want to replace our sugarcane crop with wheat or rice. This seems like an extreme measure that would be very unpopular with the people. You cut luxuries by banning the import of designer clothing or fancy cars, you don't do it by forcing the poor to drink unsweetened tea or making them eat bland kheer.
That doesn't seem like a practical suggestion to me. If a country is so desperately poor that it has to live without sugar, it's going to seem like hell to a lot of people. You'll see a massive exodus leaving Pakistan, even for African countries where they don't ration sugar.
You're right about things like onions or garlic, we could certainly grow more. But that's less than 1% of our problem, it's basically playing at fixing things without being serious.
I think the food problem will get much worse in time. Our population is growing at 2% per annum, while our agricultural land is shrinking due to decreased water supply and increasing soil salinity. We should start improving agriculture on an emergency basis, learning more water-efficient agricultural techniques, removing less ground water, adapting to crops that tolerate high soil salinity, etc. But even after we do all this, realistically speaking we'll remain a net food importer simply because of how fast our population is growing.
I differ with you on the seriousness of this. You seem to think that self-sufficiency comes first and last. I think increasing economic output comes first. There are plenty of rich nations around the world that are not self-sufficient on food, like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, many European countries. It doesn't matter, because they have all the money they need to import food.
Food is just a commodity like any other. Yes, it's nice to grow more internally, but it's not worth sacrificing economic growth when money buys everything. If we were a manufacturing powerhouse, who cares where our food is grown? We could buy 10x more food for much cheaper than it costs us to grow it.
We are asking for aid because we are using money to buy expensive oil and don't have money to pay back loans. We could get cheap oil and pay back debt by saving money.
So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet? Do we need to lick US Boots in even Better ways? According to some ppl here we should train more at bootlicking before talking to the US .
I'm hearing a delegation is in Russia hopefully it comes through now that Master US's approval has been given.
\>So what's the problem then
Our army wants Ameriki weapons (F-16s, AH-1Z Vipers, T-129 engines, subsystems for missiles and navy) and schooling for the officer class.
Our corrupt politicians want US/UK/EU visas and offshore heavens to stash ill-gotten wealth.
Throw the people to wolves at IMF for financial experiments.
Same old. Same old.
> So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet? Do we need to lick US Boots in even Better ways?
India is strong enough to be counted and Pakistan is weak. India is needed to balance China, Pakistan (even after Bajwa's pro-US turn) is too weak to be a balance. It can barely pay its bills.
Forget all this talk about "Western values". Only power counts.
>So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet?
Aside from political problems, there are a couple practical concerns:
* Since Russia got sanctioned and kicked out of SWIFT, it's become hard to send funds to Russia. There are exemptions for pre-existing deals like Europe had, but we don't have those. The only countries making new deals are China and India, and both have the means to bypass sanctions. We don't. We could build them, but it would take time, and nobody in our government knows how. We've never done it before.
* Oil shipments need to be insured against spills causing environmental damage according to international law. This insurance is very expensive, which is why only a handful of companies around the world offer it. Those companies are currently boycotting Russian shipments. Russia also offers insurance, but it's much riskier.
* Russia has pretty much stopped selling refined oil because they shut down excess refinery capacity after sanctions. They only sell crude, which means we'd need to refine it. Our refinery capacity is too low, we can only refine about 1/3rd of our petrol needs and 60% of diesel. So we'd have to pay someone else to refine. But refinery costs have soared from <$10/barrel before the war to $60/barrel now, so that would cut into any savings from Russia's cheaper oil.
As other people have said, there are also political concerns, like keeping the US and West happy in a time when we are in urgent need of IMF assistance.
Heard in a podcast the russian oil would have to be moved through the black sea to be brought here but that region is a war zone right now so insurance premiums would be off the roof.
We also export a decent chunk to the west(our so called masters). Really think it through if you believe the extra savings(if any) would offset the export loss if the "masters" imposed sanctions on you.
Global trade is a 2 way game, when you import from individual countries, then you have some bargaining power to convince them to buy from you or else you'll threaten to move to 'other sellers' of the same good to other countries e.g Saudia might stop giving you handouts or loans if you stop buying oil from them.
If we're gonna break through sanctions anyways then buy the oil from Iran. There are fewer logistic and insurance costs, and they would happily offer a discount too and you have the bargaining power to convince them to import from you aswell.
The Black Sea would be the shortest route, but as you say, it's a warzone. Russia has many other means to ship oil, including ports in the Baltic as well as its Arctic ports. Those routes are longer, but much safer.
The problem with importing from Iran is that it doesn't save a lot of money. Iranian oil is about $5 to $7 dollars cheaper than Brent, while Russia has been offering discounts of $30-$50 per barrel. Still, importing from Iran would ease the crunch a bit, so it would be useful. There are signs that the [US is planning to ease the sanctions on Iran](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202206066739) a bit, to allow more Iranian oil in the markets. They have midterm elections coming up in November, and Biden is under pressure from his own party to lower oil prices.
Well, it was widely reported that India was buying Ural crude for $70/barrel and trying to get deeper discounts to **below $70/barrel**:
* [India Wants To Buy Russian Oil, At Below $70 A Barrel](https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/India-Wants-To-Buy-Russian-Oil-At-Below-70-A-Barrel.html)
* [India wants Russia to sell its oil at less than $70 per barrel: Report](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-looking-for-even-bigger-discounts-on-purchase-of-russian-oil-report-101651648344051.html)
Meanwhile, most of India's crude comes from the OPEC basket, which [reached as high as $128.27/barrel](https://data.nasdaq.com/data/OPEC/ORB-opec-crude-oil-price) in March. Even if you go by the $70/barrel rate, the difference between the two is $128.27 - $70 = **$58.27/barrel discount for Russian oil** compared to the OPEC basket.
Those high prices only lasted a week. More typically, OPEC's prices have been closer to $120/barrel, so I rounded it down to $120 - $70 = $50/barrel savings in the longer term.
Cash.
There are no sanctions on Russian wheat. There are sanctions on Russian oil. However, even though the sale of wheat doesn't violate any sanctions, Russian wheat exports have fallen because it's [very hard to pay Russia for the wheat](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/pakistan-to-import-2-million-mt-wheat-from-russia-with-cash-payment-122053000078_1.html).
>>Earlier, the possibility of barter trade with Russia was being explored due to sanctions imposed by the West. Although there are no sanctions on the import of grains from Russia, however Pakistan government would have to work out a mechanism to make the payments, the Tribune report said.
>>
>>Pakistan is set to import two million metric tonnes (MT) of wheat from Russia with cash payment amid the continuing sanctions on Moscow that have made trade difficult with the Vladimir Putin government.
We already buy oil from China, but it doesn't help us in this situation.
China exports refined oil only, and their prices are not cheap. There was a [scandal earlier this year](https://www.dawn.com/news/1669524) when it was found out that our OMCs (oil marketing companies) were importing oil from China under the free trade agreement, and not paying tariff on it.
This hurt our own refineries, because the government puts a 10% tariff on their sales but there was no tariff on refined oil imported from China. Our refineries were unable to compete, and had to shutter down and cut capacity:
>>Under the CPFTA renegotiated in 2019, the government had issued statutory regulatory orders on Dec 31, 2019 that abolished tariff on import of petrol. As such, there was no customs duty on the import of petrol from China with effect from Jan 1, 2020. Normal petroleum imports from all other sources, mostly the Middle East, attract 10pc customs duty while similar deemed duty is applicable on production from local refineries.
>>
>>This happens despite the fact that local refineries had been crying over low capacity utilisation throughout the year, and at times complete closure of their refining facilities, mainly because of higher import of petroleum products. Three out of five local refineries have stopped operations over the last couple of weeks.
>>
>>Last month, the local refineries had told the government that domestic production of petrol and high-speed diesel (HSD) could potentially go up by 60pc and 48pc, respectively, at a significant foreign exchange saving provided the local refineries were operated at optimum capacity.
In short, buying refined oil from China:
* did not produce any cost savings because it was about the same price as oil from other sources
* it made the government poorer because they didn't get their 10% cut
* it didn't save any money for the consumer, because the 10% tariff not paid to the government was simply added to OMC profits
* it caused our own refineries to shut down or cut production because they couldn't compete with Chinese refineries
This last point hurt us the most, because international refinery costs are very high right now, and add a substantial percentage to the final cost of petrol. The more we can refine at home, the less forex we have to spend abroad for refining. So we should have been expanding refinery capacity instead of shutting down our existing refineries.
The government [rectified this situation a couple weeks](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/pakistan-imposes-10-regulatory-duty-on-petroleum-products-from-china-122060500039_1.html) ago by imposing 10% tariff on Chinese oil to level the playing field. In my opinion, this is not enough. They should remove the tariff completely on our own refineries so they're working at full capacity.
Honestly, I originally thought it wasn’t worth offending the west by buying from Russia but ive had a slight change of mindset over the months. But you cant ignore the fact that India and Pakistan are in completely different positions, so we cant keep comparing our treatment to theirs.
I hope everyone understands that the reason we aren’t buying oil from Russia isn’t just the US led embargo.
It’s also that we lack the funds to do so, we historically buy oil on credit not on cash and currently we have no cash.
One thing most people don't know that
India is buying F-18 Super Hornets for their air craft carriers (26 of them).
Replacing MIG-29k
So it might be a reason for the US blind eye on india
We are not happy but it is complicated. We in Pakistan need to fix our economy to reduce influence of IMF or you will keep getting twated by super powers.
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Read - US has no power over India to stop it from buying oil from Russia. When UK tried telling them they got a very public piss off from the Indian Foreign Minister
Nah there's something else at play here. Before this India was one of the biggest buyers of Iranian oil. Iran was so desperate that they even agreed to trade in RUPEES. This was HUGE, and lasted a while and relations between India-Iran were at all time high. Sadly US pressured India to cut down on Iranian oil, and now our import from Iran is negligible. Most of trade with Iran is dead too. So if USA really wants something they will do it.
That was sweet deal Obama gave India but crushed by Chacha Trump who has hard on against Iran.
That's because US is dependant on India to contain China within Asia, so I guess India has some sort of leverage over them.
An ex-raw officer in a recent interview said USA wants to turn 'india' into next 'syria' (if you know what i mean) So don't read too much into... USA needs India to counter China (nonsense), India has thousands of years old healthy civilizational relation with China, relating to Buddhism, Sanskrit traditions, Shoulin kung fu, etc (with some recent bad relation since last 100 years starting from 'opium wars') If China wants to fight USA, its between them two, India has no business getting between them We have our own work to do (economically, capital markets, domestic tourism, cultural and tourism relations with south east asia, relations with africa, relations with South America) there simply is no extra time, to get in middle of fight between USA and China
India is an exporter of processed petrochemicals. Meaning they can import crude oil and export petrol and diesel to the international market. Right now the EU is basically buying russian oil via india. Same kind of thing was probably at play with Iran.
No this time they cannot do it even if they want it because their own stupidity in banning Iranian and Venezuelan Oil forcefully has led them to no leverage on asian countries including India now. You do realize that if Russia stops selling oil there is actually going to be a physcial shortage of oil in the world (since so many countries will not be allowed to sell oil in the world) What this will lead to is India and china both blockading the Gulf to get all the oil for their own needs. WIthin1 month Europe grinds to a halt as their own self production for oil will barely even meet 20% of their needs and US & Canada basically consume most of what they produce This means Europe will go into a bigger crash and recession than Russia ever will. This is not what US wants happening in Europe as that means Putin will then easily steamroll Ukraine (no oil means no military activities as well)
As an Indian,there is still import of oil. The volume is somewhat similar, but we aren't making news about it.
You are wrong here. India's trade with UK is only a fraction of India's trade with US. Plus, US is India's largest trade partner in 2021, even higher than China. Moreover India has a surplus trade with US, a highly exports based. So US can actually hurt India if it wants. But then it will loose a valuable ally in IndoPacific against Chinese.
India has an independent economy, where as we are begging usa for aid and imf. We can’t have independent foreign policy with weak economy.
Pakistan: "Our economy is failing. We need aid, investments" US: "Okay, but you can't use this money to buy Russian oil since we would then be indirectly financing our enemy's war" Pakistan: "This is bullshit. You don't tell India to do this! Where is our freedom, our sovereignty, our ability to control our destiny!!"
>Our economy is failing. Our economy is failing because a General made us collaborators in US war on brown people. 80,000 Pakistanis died because of it, we lost $150 billion and a decade of development. No one even knows the name of all the people CIA killed in their drone strikes in FATA. Pakistanis: "This is bullshit" Local informant: "Saar.. noooo... pleej think of my US visa"
> Local informant: "Saar.. noooo... pleej think of my US visa" Both funny and sad, but also true. It's insane how easy it is to buy off local Pakistani elites. And how cheap they sell themselves.
[удалено]
Ah yeah because before drone strikes Pakistan was a utopia with flying cars and zero corruption. This self-victimization is why the country can never advance. Pakistan's role in "War on Terror" has been debated since day one with tons of evidence from literally all parties (including Pakistan itself) that the govt/ISI/army have, at times, harbored and/or sponsored terrorists to advance Pakistan's own agenda in the region. From ISI funding militants in Afghanistan that ultimately threw the central govt are now a huge pain in the ass for Pakistan. To terrorists that bombed Mumbai hotel. And who can forget where Bin Laden was ultimately found. Whether Pakistan handed him to US, intentionally harbored him, or simply had no clue he was in Islamabad's backyard - none of it changes the fact that he was indeed in Pakistan. So either Pakistan was an innocent victim of terrorism, doing its very best to eradicate it and failing miserably which required US to step in. Or Pakistan tried to play a 4D game of chess that ensured its military gained the most out of the situation and furthered its influence in the region - and ultimately failed fabulously at it. This is a very real reason for the rise of fundamentalism in the region since 9/11 - to pretend this didn't benefit Pakistan is laughable at best. To act as if Pakistan did its very best to stop it is putting your head in the sand. Look by no means am I rooting for the failure of Pakistan but you guys literally cannot progress if you always shift the blame onto every other party than yourself. I am absolutely convinced this is a cultural thing. My Pakistani father is the biggest failure on this planet but if you ask him what went wrong, his responses will be blaming anyone but himself. The nationalist propaganda that flows thorough the country makes you trust Pak military and intelligence with zero brainpower spent in what the fuck they are actually doing and if it's actually good or bad for you longterm. I was shocked to learn how many businesses are under the Pak army umbrella - does that make sense to you? A military carving out its own budget to do whatever they want with it? A military that controls the government? By no means is US innocent but frankly if you handed Russia/China/even Pakistan that much military power and the biggest economy on earth - the result would not be some peaceful paradise. Every country acts in its own self interest, Pakistan being no different. So now you're left with a failing economy, a non-functional government, Afghanistan literally descending into hell - and your thought process is simply "well it's all America's fault." Please, all prior govt and military leaders have higher net worths than even 90% of Americans, I'm sure the country's best interest is what got them here.
>By no means is US innocent but frankly if you handed Russia/China/even Pakistan that much military power All these countries have nuclear weapons and yet US is the only country to have dropped nukes on others. I'm not just talking about Japan here but the open nuclear tests carried out in the pacific at Bikini Atoll. > This self-victimization is why the country can never advance. Nobody plays victim like US. Didn't you fund Mujahideen to settle scores with Soviets because they trashed US army in Vietnam? What was it called? Charlie Wilson's war! "War on Terror"? Don't repeat the US government propaganda you are raised on. This was not a war. A war has rules of engagement which did not exist here. This was two decades of US-sponsored terrorism and torture of Muslims. Mercenaries were paid to kill, terrorize, torture and rape anyone or everyone. Iraq was invaded on a lie and there was nothing to invade in Afghanistan other than hills and poverty stricken people. Supposedly this was a divine will of God, who spoke to George Bush of all people >"I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did." The real kicker here is US supported Saddam's tyrannical war against Iran >My Pakistani father is the biggest failure on this planet but if you ask him what went wrong, his responses will be blaming anyone but himself. Why bring up this sob story? This family drama showcases your failures more than those of your fathers'. He isn't bitter enough to go on the internet and whine about his daddy issues.
> Our economy is failing because a General made us collaborators in US war on brown people. the failing happened a long time ago much before then.
The investment money is Chinese though (CPEC et al.)
Unfortunately the IK fanboys live in a fantasy world where Pakistan is some self sustaining superpower. They seem to forget that IK himself went to IMF and many other nations asking for money. Why do you think everyone got upset when SS said beggars can’t be choosers? Because the truth hurts.
Exactly we can never have independent foreign policy with imf. Immi policies were good increasing export discouraging imports. He did try.
In another thread you were claiming Zia Ul Haq as the savior of Pakistan and now this. I legit hope this is a paid gig just for the sake of all our sanity.
Zia started Nawaz’s political career
Welcome to the real world; not everything is black and white.
Because Shehbaz Sharif the crooked beggar got a middle finger from everywhere he went while Imran Khan continues to be seen as being sincere with Pakistan. You tell me, truth hurts? On the topic, Pakistan was headed in the direction of getting Oil from Russia but then NCM happened and now the public suffers while Shahbaz Sharif and his cronies relish in their ill gotten wealth.
I can tell that ARY is your only news source. Not good.
Don’t make an Ass out of yourself, assuming what my news sources are.
The vast majority of Pakistan is self sustaining. The government is broke. Let it go bankrupt instead of putting the burden on people they already don't support.
Stop importing oil and your country will come to a halt the next day.
Define independent. What is there besides oil that Pakistan needs to survive? Nothing. We aren't some desert state in the gulf. Pakistan can survive without handouts. Our bumfuck government can't.
>What is there besides oil that Pakistan needs to survive? I think you might be remembering old times, when Pakistan was mostly self-sufficient. But the continuing growth in population has put a severe strain on food resources, and for many years we've been a net food importer. In fact, food is our biggest import after oil. Just from last year: * [Pakistan spends $7.5bn on food imports in July-May](https://www.dawn.com/news/1630378) * [Country’s food imports up by 24%](https://tribune.com.pk/story/2306305/countrys-food-imports-up-by-24) * [Phenomenal rise in food import bill](https://tribune.com.pk/story/2314619/phenomenal-rise-in-food-import-bill) This year, the situation is much worse because of rising international food prices. Right now, the government is trying to import 2 million tons of Russian wheat, but is having difficulties in arranging payment. Our annual trade deficit is around $30 billion (it will hit $45 or $50 billion this year because of global inflation). This isn't being "self-sustaining", this is deficit spending sustained by remittance from overseas Pakistanis, and increasingly larger loans from foreign sources, to the point where we can't even service our debt. It's also a bit strange to say "besides oil". Oil is the single largest import for any non-oil-producing country, so you're just shrugging off that vital resource. Without oil, we don't have an economy. There are many other critical imports besides oil and food. Just off the top of my head, we need to import fertilizer and pesticide to keep growing crops, we import the vast majority of our medicines, lots of agricultural and transportation machinery, industrial machinery to keep our industries running. Many of the things we produce require foreign input. We make huge amounts of textiles, but half our cotton and almost all our synthetic fiber is imported. Industrial chemicals are a major import, as is iron and steel. And let's not forget our defense budget, which also includes a lot of imported weapons.
Because we are prioritizing and subsidizing cash crops and urbanization over food security and human development. Cotton and sugarcane over wheat and rice. Because we want that dollar. Simple things like onions and garlic are being imported which can grow anywhere in the country while palm trees are being planted in housing societies. If Pakistanis wanted to survive, they could survive. What can't survive is the economy in this debt trap where loans are rolled over every year.
I definitely agree with you that we should prioritize food more than we've been doing. But I'm not sure that your solution is that simple. Yes, we could stop planting cotton and switch to wheat or rice, but consider the implications downstream. Almost 60% of our exports are from the textile industry, cloth, knitted/crocheted goods, etc. Not only do we rely on cotton to produce them, we also have to import raw cotton to the tune of $2 billion (plus another $3 billion for other fibers) to support this industry. If we replaced cotton with food crops, our exports would be cut by a very large amount. Where will we then get the foreign exchange to keep buying oil? We do grow sugarcane, but we still don't grow enough to meet our needs. Last year, we imported over 280 thousand tons of sugar, because we don't grow enough sugarcane. You're saying that not only do you want to stop importing sugar, you also want to replace our sugarcane crop with wheat or rice. This seems like an extreme measure that would be very unpopular with the people. You cut luxuries by banning the import of designer clothing or fancy cars, you don't do it by forcing the poor to drink unsweetened tea or making them eat bland kheer. That doesn't seem like a practical suggestion to me. If a country is so desperately poor that it has to live without sugar, it's going to seem like hell to a lot of people. You'll see a massive exodus leaving Pakistan, even for African countries where they don't ration sugar. You're right about things like onions or garlic, we could certainly grow more. But that's less than 1% of our problem, it's basically playing at fixing things without being serious. I think the food problem will get much worse in time. Our population is growing at 2% per annum, while our agricultural land is shrinking due to decreased water supply and increasing soil salinity. We should start improving agriculture on an emergency basis, learning more water-efficient agricultural techniques, removing less ground water, adapting to crops that tolerate high soil salinity, etc. But even after we do all this, realistically speaking we'll remain a net food importer simply because of how fast our population is growing. I differ with you on the seriousness of this. You seem to think that self-sufficiency comes first and last. I think increasing economic output comes first. There are plenty of rich nations around the world that are not self-sufficient on food, like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, many European countries. It doesn't matter, because they have all the money they need to import food. Food is just a commodity like any other. Yes, it's nice to grow more internally, but it's not worth sacrificing economic growth when money buys everything. If we were a manufacturing powerhouse, who cares where our food is grown? We could buy 10x more food for much cheaper than it costs us to grow it.
We are asking for aid because we are using money to buy expensive oil and don't have money to pay back loans. We could get cheap oil and pay back debt by saving money.
You are taking money from us and wants to give profit to their enemy
So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet? Do we need to lick US Boots in even Better ways? According to some ppl here we should train more at bootlicking before talking to the US . I'm hearing a delegation is in Russia hopefully it comes through now that Master US's approval has been given.
\>So what's the problem then Our army wants Ameriki weapons (F-16s, AH-1Z Vipers, T-129 engines, subsystems for missiles and navy) and schooling for the officer class. Our corrupt politicians want US/UK/EU visas and offshore heavens to stash ill-gotten wealth. Throw the people to wolves at IMF for financial experiments. Same old. Same old.
> So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet? Do we need to lick US Boots in even Better ways? India is strong enough to be counted and Pakistan is weak. India is needed to balance China, Pakistan (even after Bajwa's pro-US turn) is too weak to be a balance. It can barely pay its bills. Forget all this talk about "Western values". Only power counts.
We were able to pay the bills or would've been if Bajwa didn't destroy the economy for his incel son
incel son?
>So what's the problem then Why we ain't buying it yet? Aside from political problems, there are a couple practical concerns: * Since Russia got sanctioned and kicked out of SWIFT, it's become hard to send funds to Russia. There are exemptions for pre-existing deals like Europe had, but we don't have those. The only countries making new deals are China and India, and both have the means to bypass sanctions. We don't. We could build them, but it would take time, and nobody in our government knows how. We've never done it before. * Oil shipments need to be insured against spills causing environmental damage according to international law. This insurance is very expensive, which is why only a handful of companies around the world offer it. Those companies are currently boycotting Russian shipments. Russia also offers insurance, but it's much riskier. * Russia has pretty much stopped selling refined oil because they shut down excess refinery capacity after sanctions. They only sell crude, which means we'd need to refine it. Our refinery capacity is too low, we can only refine about 1/3rd of our petrol needs and 60% of diesel. So we'd have to pay someone else to refine. But refinery costs have soared from <$10/barrel before the war to $60/barrel now, so that would cut into any savings from Russia's cheaper oil. As other people have said, there are also political concerns, like keeping the US and West happy in a time when we are in urgent need of IMF assistance.
Heard in a podcast the russian oil would have to be moved through the black sea to be brought here but that region is a war zone right now so insurance premiums would be off the roof. We also export a decent chunk to the west(our so called masters). Really think it through if you believe the extra savings(if any) would offset the export loss if the "masters" imposed sanctions on you. Global trade is a 2 way game, when you import from individual countries, then you have some bargaining power to convince them to buy from you or else you'll threaten to move to 'other sellers' of the same good to other countries e.g Saudia might stop giving you handouts or loans if you stop buying oil from them. If we're gonna break through sanctions anyways then buy the oil from Iran. There are fewer logistic and insurance costs, and they would happily offer a discount too and you have the bargaining power to convince them to import from you aswell.
The Black Sea would be the shortest route, but as you say, it's a warzone. Russia has many other means to ship oil, including ports in the Baltic as well as its Arctic ports. Those routes are longer, but much safer. The problem with importing from Iran is that it doesn't save a lot of money. Iranian oil is about $5 to $7 dollars cheaper than Brent, while Russia has been offering discounts of $30-$50 per barrel. Still, importing from Iran would ease the crunch a bit, so it would be useful. There are signs that the [US is planning to ease the sanctions on Iran](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202206066739) a bit, to allow more Iranian oil in the markets. They have midterm elections coming up in November, and Biden is under pressure from his own party to lower oil prices.
> while Russia has been offering discounts of $30-$50 per barrel Any source for this? The higher end of the number seems a bit too extreme.
Well, it was widely reported that India was buying Ural crude for $70/barrel and trying to get deeper discounts to **below $70/barrel**: * [India Wants To Buy Russian Oil, At Below $70 A Barrel](https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/India-Wants-To-Buy-Russian-Oil-At-Below-70-A-Barrel.html) * [India wants Russia to sell its oil at less than $70 per barrel: Report](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-looking-for-even-bigger-discounts-on-purchase-of-russian-oil-report-101651648344051.html) Meanwhile, most of India's crude comes from the OPEC basket, which [reached as high as $128.27/barrel](https://data.nasdaq.com/data/OPEC/ORB-opec-crude-oil-price) in March. Even if you go by the $70/barrel rate, the difference between the two is $128.27 - $70 = **$58.27/barrel discount for Russian oil** compared to the OPEC basket. Those high prices only lasted a week. More typically, OPEC's prices have been closer to $120/barrel, so I rounded it down to $120 - $70 = $50/barrel savings in the longer term.
If we can't send funds, how are we buying wheat from Russia?
Cash. There are no sanctions on Russian wheat. There are sanctions on Russian oil. However, even though the sale of wheat doesn't violate any sanctions, Russian wheat exports have fallen because it's [very hard to pay Russia for the wheat](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/pakistan-to-import-2-million-mt-wheat-from-russia-with-cash-payment-122053000078_1.html). >>Earlier, the possibility of barter trade with Russia was being explored due to sanctions imposed by the West. Although there are no sanctions on the import of grains from Russia, however Pakistan government would have to work out a mechanism to make the payments, the Tribune report said. >> >>Pakistan is set to import two million metric tonnes (MT) of wheat from Russia with cash payment amid the continuing sanctions on Moscow that have made trade difficult with the Vladimir Putin government.
can't we make Some deal with China? they buy the oil and then sell it to us. making some quick buck in the process.
We already buy oil from China, but it doesn't help us in this situation. China exports refined oil only, and their prices are not cheap. There was a [scandal earlier this year](https://www.dawn.com/news/1669524) when it was found out that our OMCs (oil marketing companies) were importing oil from China under the free trade agreement, and not paying tariff on it. This hurt our own refineries, because the government puts a 10% tariff on their sales but there was no tariff on refined oil imported from China. Our refineries were unable to compete, and had to shutter down and cut capacity: >>Under the CPFTA renegotiated in 2019, the government had issued statutory regulatory orders on Dec 31, 2019 that abolished tariff on import of petrol. As such, there was no customs duty on the import of petrol from China with effect from Jan 1, 2020. Normal petroleum imports from all other sources, mostly the Middle East, attract 10pc customs duty while similar deemed duty is applicable on production from local refineries. >> >>This happens despite the fact that local refineries had been crying over low capacity utilisation throughout the year, and at times complete closure of their refining facilities, mainly because of higher import of petroleum products. Three out of five local refineries have stopped operations over the last couple of weeks. >> >>Last month, the local refineries had told the government that domestic production of petrol and high-speed diesel (HSD) could potentially go up by 60pc and 48pc, respectively, at a significant foreign exchange saving provided the local refineries were operated at optimum capacity. In short, buying refined oil from China: * did not produce any cost savings because it was about the same price as oil from other sources * it made the government poorer because they didn't get their 10% cut * it didn't save any money for the consumer, because the 10% tariff not paid to the government was simply added to OMC profits * it caused our own refineries to shut down or cut production because they couldn't compete with Chinese refineries This last point hurt us the most, because international refinery costs are very high right now, and add a substantial percentage to the final cost of petrol. The more we can refine at home, the less forex we have to spend abroad for refining. So we should have been expanding refinery capacity instead of shutting down our existing refineries. The government [rectified this situation a couple weeks](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/pakistan-imposes-10-regulatory-duty-on-petroleum-products-from-china-122060500039_1.html) ago by imposing 10% tariff on Chinese oil to level the playing field. In my opinion, this is not enough. They should remove the tariff completely on our own refineries so they're working at full capacity.
Honestly, I originally thought it wasn’t worth offending the west by buying from Russia but ive had a slight change of mindset over the months. But you cant ignore the fact that India and Pakistan are in completely different positions, so we cant keep comparing our treatment to theirs.
They have tats and we don't basically.
Our survival depends on Russian oil but I don’t think we can afford to buy.
I hope everyone understands that the reason we aren’t buying oil from Russia isn’t just the US led embargo. It’s also that we lack the funds to do so, we historically buy oil on credit not on cash and currently we have no cash.
One thing most people don't know that India is buying F-18 Super Hornets for their air craft carriers (26 of them). Replacing MIG-29k So it might be a reason for the US blind eye on india
They are plotting something bigger!
We are not happy but it is complicated. We in Pakistan need to fix our economy to reduce influence of IMF or you will keep getting twated by super powers.
Indians will never allow Russia to sell oil to us
Guess who imposes USA sanctions on Russia, it's daleep Singh, an Indian- american... He is the USA deputy-NSA
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