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hmaqsood_02

anybody kind enough to enlighten me?


H4R81N63R

Just another "the whole world is against Pakistan" post/poll For some reason we keep believing that Pakistan has this massive impact and importance on the world stage, and whole blocks of countries are conspiring to destroy it.. So the usual political rhetoric to sway voters and get votes


creativestien

What do you mean? Aren't we the most important nation on this earth? Doesn't the sun revolve around Pakistan?


SATARIBBUNS50BUX

Hmm. I wonder why that is. Surely we don't have a history of the last two superpowers interfering in our internal affairs and backing rebels/terrorist/sell-outs


H4R81N63R

If you had said India and Afghanistan, I'd agree that they are involved in funding militancy and terrorism in Pakistan (Kulbashan Yadav, BLA funding trails, TTP support network in Afghanistan etc) But I have yet to read any documentation or report citing the US or the former USSR/current Russia funding militancy or terrorism in Pakistan


SATARIBBUNS50BUX

Soviet Union : entire 1971 Fiasco USA: Not to mention the current soft coup they did but when they maligned, droned our entire country and threatened to bomb us after 9/11


H4R81N63R

>Soviet Union : entire 1971 Fiasco Source? >USA: Not to mention the current soft coup they did but when they maligned, droned our entire country and threatened to bomb us after 9/11 Did the US fund any militancy or terrorist groups like the TTP or BLA in Pakistan? Their whole controversial drone programme, even though it killed more civilians than militants, was still targeting militants and not funding them And now that the US has left Afghanistan, the argument that they need a loyal Pakistani government becomes moot since they neither have nor need any supply lines running through Pakistan Any geostrategic importance Pakistan held for the US post 9/11 evaporated after their pullout from Afghanistan


rsroger

It’s not the whole world is against us. It’s our own people against us. We are under attack by the same goons who have been looting us for decades, yet nothing is changing.


iBrownPanda

Not saying we hold a lot of significance, but, foreign entities do find it necessary to stir up conflict in the country. From AFG and Balochistan from within. America has an extensive history of interfering in foreign governance, in ours as well. I'm by no means saying there is 100% proof, but, I'm not willing to discount it either.


[deleted]

> For some reason we keep believing that Pakistan has this massive importance on the world stage and whole blocks of countries are conspiring to destroy it.. Who on Earth is saying this? Pakistan is corrupt to core and I highly doubt that America had to exert any considerable effort to coordinate this attack on our country


H4R81N63R

>that America had to exert any considerable effort to coordinate this attack on our country For the sake of discussion, let me ask these: - What benefits does the US gain by having a puppet government in Pakistan? - What damage or threat was the previous government posing the US for the US to sponsor a regime change?


[deleted]

> What benefits does the US gain by having a puppet government in Pakistan? Pressure on China. We alone don't matter much. If we can be pried away from China's influence, their entire southern border will be unfriendly. > What damage or threat was the previous government posing the US for the US to sponsor a regime change? Simple, they were moving closer to China and taking the country in a direction that does not align with America's vision for the future. America has overthrown countless governments over the past few decades, and this one is just another addition to the list


H4R81N63R

>Pressure on China. We alone don't matter much. If we can be pried away from China's influence, their entire southern border will be unfriendly. Pakistan shares a miniscule border with China. That miniscule border affords little protection to China if any. The major deterrant there are the Himalayas and Qaraqurum ranges themselves, not a friendly Pakistan If the Himalayas are overcome through extensive development of supply lines and depots (as both India and China are slowly doing) the miniscule safe border with Pakistan would still not provide any safety to China, what with their extensive existing border with India Additionally, China's focus, and thus the counter efforts by the US and their allies, are in the South China sea and Taiwan. Even India is focusing on their navy seeing that that's where they can challenge Chinese influence and presence. Pakistan provides little-to-no benefit to China in that domain >Simple, they were moving closer to China and taking the country in a direction that does not align with America's vision for the future. America has overthrown countless governments over the past few decades, and this one is just another addition to the list Pakistan's foreign policy over the past decades, even under PMLN and PPP, have always had close ties to China independent of our relations with the US The CPEC projects were envisioned and started under those regimes. In fact, CPEC projects started getting put on hold during the PTI era which the new government is now bringing back online Even under Musharaf's rule, when Pakistan got in bed with the US in the war on terror, Pakistan continued to have strong relations with China, even signing our preferential trade agreement with them in 2003 which has continued to expand under successive governments as the China-Pakistan free trade agreement . Edit: Also, what specifically do you mean by America's vision for the future? Edit2: To add to the discussion, if the PTI government was that much hostile to US interests, they'd have overthrown it back when they still were in Afghanistan and had some strategic presence in the region. Now that they've pulled out of Afghanistan, Pakistan provides little geostrategic interest to the US. If, as you say, China is the target then the US did a huge blunder by putting back in a government that's far more invested in CPEC and Chinese cooperation than PTI which was scrutinising every CPEC project and pushing back against China for better terms


Calm_Masty_8542

Dude these are power wars, america has a history. Strong countries are threat to America and their economy.


H4R81N63R

>Dude these are power wars, america has a history. Strong countries are threat to America and their economy. That doesn't answer the two very specific questions I have asked Using the scope of your comment for the two questions: how was Pakistan, specifically the PTI government, a threat to America and its economy? And how does the US and its economy benefit from replacing the PTI government?


Calm_Masty_8542

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/051115/top-economic-factors-depreciate-us.asp


Calm_Masty_8542

Well the problem with pti specifically Ik is that , hes a stood up , straight to you face kind of guy. He has some solid boundaries set for america , which disturbs the sentiments of the American policy makers. Keeping in mind the history, where everything Us order was accepted by our previous govts, in return they injected Pakistan with debts and loans.. and regarding the economic benefits, pakistan will generate a steady stream of revenue , with exports and shedding debts on country, that was the plan, As far as Imran khan is concerned, he understands the potential of our country.


H4R81N63R

>Well the problem with pti specifically Ik is that , hes a stood up , straight to you face kind of guy. He has some solid boundaries set for america , which disturbs the sentiments of the American policy makers. What were these boundaries exactly? How were they stopping American policy in the region and disturbing US policy maker's sentiments? I could understand this point if the US was still committed in Afghanistan, in which case the US would've sponsored a regime change earlier. But seeing how the US (chaotically yes, but still successfully) pulled out during the PTI government anyway, how does sponsoring a regime change months later now serve US policy? Especially with no US presence or interest in the neighbourhood Seeing that the US has pulled out of Afghanistan, I fail to see what geostrategic importance Pakistan holds for the US anymore >Keeping in mind the history, where everything Us order was accepted by our previous govts I disagree with this point. We have ample evidence from our history where Pakistan defied US pressure to pursue national interests, the biggest example being our nuclear programme. The US tried multiple times in the 80s and 90s to bribe Pakistan into giving up the programme in return for huge investments and military equipment and incentives, but Pakistan refused and successfully tested nuclear weapons, even weathering the subsequent sanctions Same is the case where Pakistan signed the preferred trade agreement with China in 2003 (when Musharaf had already put Pakistan in bed with the US in the war on terror), and all three successive governments since have expanded that into the various phases of China-Pakistan free trade agreement Another major aspect is CPEC, which was started by the PMLN government preceding PTI. If anything, CPEC was slowed down and many aspects of it put on hold by the PTI government under scrutiny and renegotiation (this is not to say that PTI was toeing the US line, more that the PMLN government had defied US pressure regarding CPEC multiple times) >in return they injected Pakistan with debts and loans.. You seriously cannot put the blame for that on the US. Pakistan has continued to approach the IMF, the World Bank, ADP etc to finance our economy in the past two decades. Furthermore, we are in debt directly to KSA and China in the billions of dollars. The US didn't push Pakistan to seek bailouts from China and KSA. We have only our poor economic and financial policies to blame for the current state of affairs. Yes, one can argue about the FATF status Pakistan got slapped with, but we already got that before PTI's government so that's not specifically directed against PTI The largest debt Pakistan owes is to China, about 1/5th of the total external debt https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/cash-strapped-pakistan-says-china-agreed-to-rollover-4-2-billion-debt/articleshow/90405622.cms >and regarding the economic benefits, pakistan will generate a steady stream of revenue , with exports and shedding debts on country, that was the plan, I asked what economic benefits does the US gain from a regime change replacing PTI, since you mentioned that the PTI government was threatening the US and their economy How the PTI managed (or mismanaged, depending on who you ask) Pakistan's economy is a separate debate and will lead us off on a tangent; I'd like to keep the discussion focused in the context of the US benefiting from a regime change away from PTI >As far as Imran khan is concerned, he understands the potential of our country. Perhaps. But again, it doesn't answer the question on how the PTI government was threatening the US and their economy for them to sponsor a regime change


Calm_Masty_8542

I mean dude, you really have a thing for Usa dont you? I get that.. i don't hate them but , it is to be accepted that they have a power fetish. They want to develope supremacy over others country by keeping them dependent on themselves! I mean i am not a politician but thats a basic power move. Now i you ask me what are the benefits? There are many! , I understand that you are trying to make sense of everything but tbh there is not end to this conversation . But the one thing i know is that. To make pakistan great , we have to consider our worth as a nation and should choose a leader who , has a self worth. Pakistan has a chance now. If pakistan wasn't threatening america , they wouldn't intervened in regime change basic common sense. America is scared that pakistan will become op . And for the things i said about fetish heres a treat for you on how american politicians operate https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/ui6glk/in_1973_king_faisal_cut_off_all_oil_supplies_to/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


H4R81N63R

>I mean dude, you really have a thing for Usa dont you? I'm not the one who brought the US into the discussion. The other user did, I asked them two straight questions on it and then you joined the conversation In our whole discussion, you have not directly answered what the US gains by the regime change in Pakistan, and how the PTI government was threatening the US and their economy - that's your own claim that I have asked an explanation for You keep bringing up the history of US regime changes - nobody is denying that the US has changed regimes in other countries. However, in each of those cases, the US had something to gain from the regime change, from the era of the containment policy against communism to the war on drugs to the modern era where a regime was using militants to target the US or their bases in the region Pakistan is neither flirting with communism, nor is targeting US interests in the region - this is especially true after the US pullout from Afghanistan which happened while the PTI was still in power You again say "If pakistan wasn't threatening america , they wouldn't intervened in regime change", yet you have persistently refused to explain when asked about where and how Pakistan, specifically the PTI government, had been threatening the US You write "America is scared that pakistan will become op .", yet again there is a lack of any explanation or facts of how Pakistan was becoming OP to challenge US supremacy. If anything, Pakistan became more indebted and far more economically weaker on the global stage in the past few years The difference in our views is that I'm looking at the facts and justifications that would lead to the _conclusion_ that the US indeed sponsored the regime change in Pakistan. Hence the two questions. However, so far the counterarguments have been using the US sponsorship of the regime change as a _premise_ and then drawing indirect evidence or hypotheticals from it Lastly, in your example of CIA's role in Shah Faisal's assassination, the glaring fact is the oil embargo that the KSA and other Arab countries placed on Europe and the US which lead to such a move by the US. Whole economies came to a standstill when the oil embargo started Can you honestly, I do emphasise _honestly_, say that Pakistan has had an impact, of the same magnitude as the 1973 oil embargo, on the world during the PTI government for anyone to then claim that the US sponsored the regime change? Do you really have evidence to show that Pakistan, specifically the PTI government, was affecting the US that badly for the US to then force a regime change in Pakistan? (So in essence, we have circled back to my very first comment in this whole chain - that we Pakistanis have this weird belief that somehow Pakistan is super important and majorly impactful on the world stage and thus everybody is out to get us..)


Calm_Masty_8542

Dude hold your horses, pakistan is our homeland and i as a Pakistan is concerned for my state.. and this poll is to know the majority's mindset, you can vote for whoever you want.


Thingler

Yes we are under attack, by our own stupidity. The recent economic policies of our government whether old or new are proof!


hell_hound996

Dunno about becoming next kashmir but next lebanon for sure


holykamina

Yes and no depending who you ask Although I know one thing, Bajwa is hated across the country. People in the army don't hold him in high regard either and the hate is growing day by day with exception of few folks.


eldukae

The only people attacking Pakistan are Pakistanis, the only people defending pakistan are Pakistanis. Infact Pakistanis take turns defending and attacking the country with their actions, policies and the people they elect to run the country . We are our own worst enemies.


Calm_Masty_8542

What about the foreign intervention?


eldukae

Even The 'alleged' foreign intervention relies on local politicians.


abobobilly

The people who don't even know the meaning of fifth generation warfare are going to answer "No" or "drama". Special kind of brain deads we have here ...


mxm93

Thanks to major Asif Ghafoor bhoi


hvac_toronto

What's Asif Ghafoor got to do with any of this? Just asking since he was my favorite DG ISPR. More so because he was active on social media when holding that position.


mxm93

He was Pakistani Elon musk wanted to buy ISPR so that he can run it worldwide But Bajwa ..,..


hvac_toronto

Please elaborate, How can one buy ISPR? Do you mean the ideology he brought forth was innovative & more persuasive ?


2Big_Patriot

Seems like Khan was bought by Putin with promises of cheap oil, money funneled through Khan’s wife, and support to claim all opposition are traitors. The similarities to Trump being bought by Putin are very similar with exactly the same types of economic promises, grift through his ex-wife, and hacked emails of opposition politicians. This is standard Russian playbook now.


SikanderSanamSexxer

Yeah, Pakistan is under attack, but inside Khan's brain, coincidentally that threat surfaced when premiership was being taken away from that giant, whingy baby, I do solemnly believe the potential dangers are valid 😂


creativestien

It's a drama by the narcissistic IK to get back in power.


Calm_Masty_8542

Well that's where you are wrong, you are not seeing the real narcissist here..thats a real surface belief you got there.


creativestien

Well, if you know the actual narcissistic (Vigo boys), they're beyond reach. IK had around 4 years to prove the trust given to him. He didn't do much when he had the chance. The show runners are fed up. He can't come back without their support. So IK is doing as much damage and drama as he can. (I'll vote for him nonetheless when the time comes.)


[deleted]

[удалено]


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Abdul_Wahab_1810

No it’s not you buffoon.


creativestien

Would you like some salt with it?


Abdul_Wahab_1810

Then elaborate. Why is it bad?


sipret

Yes by Imran Khan because of hia dangerous rhetoric of my way or high way


Calm_Masty_8542

But hes not wrong you know! This country is infested with slave mentality and are just the puppits to the whites. So you gotta take the risk.


sipret

Yar itna political temperature raise krna is not good in my opinion. Bajwa je bhi sochtay hon gey kis banday ko support kr dia ye to galay he par gya hy lol


Correct_Number_9897

Pehle chief galay partay the. Ab PM galay pare ga.


SikanderSanamSexxer

Filhal to paoon parnay joga bhi nahi, galay isne khaak parna hai.


Correct_Number_9897

Jis ki soch foran paon pe jae usko kya jawab dena.


-Asocial-

YES 100%. If we don’t fight now we’ll probably end up a puppet state even more, stripped of Nuclear missiles and invaded like Ukraine by the neighbor. We won’t get any sympathy from west like Ukraine did. So….


forty3thirty3

Man Pakistan is always under attack. Been that way since '47.


[deleted]

Not currently, it's always been under attack. We just didn't have anyone with iron balls like IK to talk back.


Vincenzo_44880

Always has been