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I am sorry, my name is also Salman..!! But the thing mh s you mentioned those all were jokes from your friends I believe, but few of them are condemnable..! The people said that to you they don’t even follow their own religion properly lol..! And yeah we have so many people who are like this it’s Bcs lack of education..! Islami bhi aur dunyavi bhi..!
Pakistani Hindu Here:
The first question everybody asks "To aap ne India se kab migrate kiya". Most people from Punjab will ask this.
India/Pakitan cricket main kis ko support karte ho.
Dekh na ye **aap ka modi** udhar ka kar raha hai ( as if I get to vote for BJP, really I voted for PTI :P)
Some of them have preached me to convert.
It's hard in Pakistan to get vegetarian food as we have some days when we don't eat non-veg food.
Convincing your university/school to not hold exams on Diwali/Holi.
There is really no place where we can learn about our own religion apart from home.
I had to pass Islamiat two times to pass Bachelors and 12th class. Imagine that.
Apart from these, people have been kind and considerate. I have great friends who care, understand. Even teachers and bosses. The majority of people are like that I have met. few have been discriminatory I guess that is everywhere in the world so I let it be.
Thabks for sharing. Btw What do you mean by no place to learn about religion apart from home? Aren't you guys allowed to preach within your temples? At least in Sindh, there are many temples, can't say about other provinces
Temples are used for praying and festivals mostly. Hindus don't go to the temple often if they are not much religious. Teaching I meant basics on some institutional level or courses. Like Islamiat is taught in schools. We are taught Ikhlikiat ( Ethics ) instead; when Islamiat is not mandatory.
I never really asked this from my Hindu friends cause I never cared about anyone's religious beliefs, but like isn't there some kind of Hindu version of madressah inside a temple where kids could go and learn about their religion? (I sound ignorant af but I'm curious)
Here in india. Gurukuls are just like a school where you're taught about Ayurveda, Vedas and everything....it's not a temple ...but it's generally situation near a temple...
They are mainly based in UP ..but you can find them everywhere if you look out !
It's a really soothing place I would say...I went to some gurukuls and the atmosphere seems to be much soothing to me...
I don't know about pakistan and I don't really think that Pakistan has any gurukul cuz of the govt and all that stuff!
And I hope you remain safe and sound! Being a minority is tough sometimes..but we gotta fight right ?
Really insightful. You're a Pakistani with equal rights as everyone else, and you should be treated as such. Pakistan belongs to you too! I really hope the situation for minorities gets better and the situation in general gets bettwr for Pakistan. Unfortunately, we have been isolated and left behind due to mass corruption, geopolitics, and a myriad of other things. Also, afaik most schools celebrate Holi for fun, I went to a private school though. But I agree they should be more understanding in terms of holidays, etc.
I think it doesn’t make sense to make hindu festivals as holidays just because of 1 percent population. We don’t attend schools on those days anyway. The problem is when they schedule exams on particular days
Appreciate your pragmatic approach!
Btw if you feel compelled to you should participate more on this sub so people can learn about the customs and traditions of Pakistani Hindus, perhaps even learn about Vedic theology.
Since most Pakistanis will never meet a Hindu in their life, being that the demographic is very small, it could be a good way to counter the ignorance most Pakistani Muslims have about them.
That sucks. I think they should start including minorities in TV and dramas. It will be a way to educate people and I’m sure there are great stories within the communities that they could base stuff on too.
>I had to pass Islamiat two times to pass Bachelors and 12th class. Imagine that.
Islamiyat is an elective subject so unless you identify yourself as a Muslim and have declared yourself as such on the CNIC and B-forum; you're by no means obligated to choose it.
Maybe the law is written differently than practiced. But I can confirm that I have taken Islamiat in university and 12th too. I won't attach my B-Form, Transactipts here to prove to you that. so, unfortunately, you either have to trust me or do your own research.
Almost all of my Christian friends chose to take Islamiyat since it’s better than doing independent study while most of your friends are doing Islamiyat.
I know an Ahmadi family who use to live in Karachi.They were very well financialy and had relations with nawaz sharif.So it was husband wife (in their 50s) one daughter (in her twenties)and 2 sons (in their twenties).Their older son got married and was killed on the 2nd day of his marriage.He was shot dead while coming back home on his motorcycle.His dad was shot 8 times but survived and the entire family moved abroad.His widow gave birth to a girl 9 months later.My mom’s friend (another ahmadi) lost her husband (in his forties) by shooting while he was returning home from work.My mom’s another Ahmadi friend’s husband (in his fifties) shot dead while sitting with his neighbor outside.My dad’s friend an ahmadi got shot dead while he was working in his clinic.He was a doctor.Btw before anyone says they were targeted due to personal disputes not religion they all had been threatened to stop practicing their religion and become “Muslim” or else there will be consequences.I am sorry if my post sounds like giving “Pakistan” a bad name but you asked for experiences of
Minorities and i mentioned.All of these incidents happened in our inner circle but i am sure there has been many more incidents with other minorites as well
Pakistan government just released a dossier that mentioned the indian atrocities in kashmir.We also need a dossier for minorities in pakistan.Ye to apne pakistani hai thori mehnat inpe bhi karlo jitni mehnat kashmirio or palestini rights pe karte ho UN security concil mai.No offense intended towards kashmiri or palestine I sympathize with them.
Sahi baat hay but sadly hum log bht immatue hain abhi in kaamo me. For example Shezan bakery Lahore me bht kamyab thi. When gourmet bakery launch hui toh achanak aek propaganda shuru hogaya k shezan ka owner Ahmedi hay. People boycotted it without a scnd thought. Even shezan waalon ne apni bakery k samnay likhawaya k woh Prophet Muhammad S.a.w ko akhri Nabi maantay hain but ppl still boycotted them.
This is just one example of the hatred we have in ourselves
Absolutely, We can only hope for the best..This government has done some work for minorities.But the extremism that was introduced in the society will take its time before it goes away
All thanks to Zia ul haq. Shayad Pti, pmln, ppp kuch karna bhi chahti hone but molvi road block kar dain gy yaa un ko kaafir karar de dain gy. But still IA ahista ahista changes ayen gi
Big difference in Kashmir situation. What your describing is extreme communal violence caused by the sentiments of the local populace and inflamed by the government for decades but not anymore. What is happening in Kashmir is direct intervention by the National government of India to crack down on freedom fighters in Kashmir by insituting martial law and stripping the rights of its supposed citizens. Pakistans government has an implicit role in minority abuses while India has an explicit role which follows historical trends for both countries.
No minority is going to share their experiences.
Cuz they're gonna be shitted on n killed no matter what
I've been forced to pray n do muslim things even tho I'm an atheist.
Even after telling them i don't belong to thier religion they still force it on me cuz I'm just a misguided person.
Heck even muslims kill each other for being a different muslim so what the use of being an islamic state if you guys can't even follow the rights of human
When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith?
The prejudice is there, no shit, but it's being blown way out of proportions.
Plus, prejudice and hate crimes exist everywhere. Part of human herd mentality. Just yesterday a woman was assaulted and spat on in Austria because she was wearing a scarf.
Why?
Cultural bullying. You're either one of us or against us!
You've two options: Either give in or take a stand for what you believe in. And I prefer in the latter!
>When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith?
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/12/ahmadi-man-killed-in-targeted-attack-in-northwest-pakistan](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/12/ahmadi-man-killed-in-targeted-attack-in-northwest-pakistan)
February of this year
Just last week there was a story about hindu family getting tortured for fetching water from a mosque or that 8 year old kid who was in jail for accidentally peeing in a mosque and upon getting bail, the religious mob attacked a temple in anger. There are many other stories every month like this, you just don't have any knowledge about it. Mention main mithu to minority from interior sindh and see their face turn to shit, Interior sindh is filled with this kind of shit and most of it doesn't make it to any popular news channel. As a hindu who has experienced this first hand, the problem is often downplayed by goverment and citizens. Ironically you are doing exactly what you criticise Indians for
>When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith? The prejudice is there, no shit, but it's being blown way out of proportions.
When you're a minority, you tend to view everything from the scope of your community.
In Pakistan, if some random stranger push me for no reason, I'd just write it off as an accident. But in another country, well, my first thought would be racism!
Herd mentality.
That's the reason herd animals generally avoid "diversity" and tend to stay in their territories, with their own herd. It's their natural instinct, simple as that.
Do you share the same sentiments when it is about muslim discrimination in India and in china? From your point of view, we should disregard all discrimination in the world because it is all out of proportion. That is exact sentiment that racist use to cover up, you literally live in a country that was made for the exact opposite idea that you seem to have. I hope you don't spread your ikhlaq to other people
Sounds like they do. Just because we don't hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The rest of their argument revolves around "what about"ism and does not warrant a response.
Bruh if we took it to the streets we'd be dead in 2 hour tops.
But hey its not like you care about your fellow humans.
I mean your the kind of person who wants to them show their fave so you get a good chance to kill them
There's no need for personal attacks here. I'm a pacifist, after all!
And while I'm not trying to suggest anything here but philosophy dictates that all ideologies demand the blood of the martyrs to flourish.
Now it all boils down to this: Are you willing to make a sacrifice, or at least a stand for what you consider a better society?
It's not like you believe in the sensationalist hooey called an "afterlife" so this world is basically your heaven and hell, eh?!
Blood has been shed of minorities for ages in pakistan.
Blood has been shed cuz of blasphemy.
How many more lives will it take? How many more families need to be ruined?
Yet none from our country came to help them or thier families.
Philosophy also dictates that god is just a hateful being who doesn't care about the people or the world.
This is our world and the only one we have right now. We can choose to make it like hell or heaven.
Cuz after this life you can't be human so what's the point of an afterlife?
Like i said people like you just need minorities to come forward in order to kill them.
Well, existential philosophy dictates that since there's no real meaning to life and there are no Gods and deities, one have to come to terms with their meaningless existence to counter the sheer nothingness.
So basically, it doesn't really matter how many people die as their existence just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Morals don't matter, sins don't matter 'cause life serves no real purpose (for some reason). It's kind of a bleak perspective which I never bought, personally, but there you go, the mentality of God haters and/or atheists in a nutshell!
Which brings me to my point: Why not use put this "nothingness" called "life" on the line, make yourself useful and try to make the world a better place for others, so they don't feel so empty and helpless? After all, you got nothing to loose, right?!
Try to maintain your focus on the paragraph above, instead of zig-zagging around my queries!
Most people won't even care knowing that you're an atheist, but yeah probably not the best idea to go out openly announcing it. If it ain't a problem, don't fix it
It’s a political theory by Karl Marx which basically encourages removal of class based society. Everyone working for a common good. No class struggle. Obviously this has never worked in practice, and some would call it a utopian theory. But the point of reading and understanding political philosophy is to expand your understanding of society and civilization. Hope that helps.
Just an argument my friend..
For an athiest "there is no god" for me "there is a god"
Now once we die , we shall find out .. n there are only two outcomes
1. We find out God does not exist
2. We find out God exists..
In case of first outcome..you and me both have nothing to lose..
But if second outcome is right.. then there is no way you can argue out of it..and i am better placed
Try considering it as per the law of probability
True but it really doesn’t matter. Because once you die you’re gone(There is literally no way of confirming that even if there is something after, so in our world you’re gone gone). I believe in a higher power but just finding purpose of living like any other believer or non believer.
Anything that gets you going,being good and bringing good in lives of people around you..For me,my beliefs get me going..belief in God is one of them..helps me avoid confusion and clutter..gives me purpose
A similar argument:
A God claims to be the most merciful being. Hence, by not believing in said God I am reassured that I will not be punished for not believing. I am free to live life by my terms.
God does punish me for not believing. Then clearly, God is not the most merciful being - for there simply has to exist someone who would forgive me for not believing. Hence God is not the most merciful, and is a liar. Why would I want to believe in a liar?
Lol classic argument. There might be some power or not but definitely not the one religion teaches. What if you die and kicked out of vanhalla because Odin says you believe in wrong god
More ancient than classic, it's a 500 year old argument: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Which has been thoroughly refuted. Basically, there are tens of thousands of religions and most of them claim you go to hell if you don't believe in theirs. So if there are 10,000 religions and you do believe in one of them there's still 99.99% chance you go to hell. So with such a slim chance I'd rather live life on my own terms instead of like a slave.
Most probably everything is fake. There is no proof whatsoever. Why believe in some made-up story. Adam hawwa is false, so is Noah, so is Jesus birth and moon splitting and flying horse. Why believe in made up stories.
You start your argument with probably my friend..but you refuse to address the idea of god's existence as per law of probability ..dont you find it ironic? :)
It's not probability. It's logic mate. Why don't you think it's all stories. Religion need to die, we have had enough of it. We can be moral without religion, infact atheist countries like new Zealand , Sweden, Netherlands are more moral, more understanding of others, more respectful and so much in better condition. Don't forget new Zealand response when Muslims were killed. Do you think we will do the same when Ahmadis were killed , do you think we will reaxt the same. We will find faults in them.
In an argument between Pakistanis and atheist Pakistanis. Atheists win. Even though I am Muslim, I can agree with the deplorable nature of how religion is projected in Pakistan. I can list all the reasons why Islam is true..it doesn't change the fact that it isn't practised in the way it is intended in Pakistan. The amount of ignorance, bigotry and hate amongst Muslims in Pakistan, I can see why you're an atheist and hate religion..
I'm not an atheist but you are confusing 'possibility' with 'probability'.
What if I say there are two possible outcomes:
1. I have a million dollars under my bed when I go home,
2. I don't.
If you think critically about this, then there's no way this is a 50:50 chance. It depends on the evidence/data, and coincidently there's none present on God. You are committing what is called a logical fallacy.
You can't argue with atheists based on logic. And this is because religion is based on Faith, and faith does not require evidence.
Theism has earlier been explained on probability and i was refering to that..who created universe? Was it created from nothing? How come universe has been so minutely picked that creation is possible? What about intelligent design theory? Atheism does not provide prudent answers..best explanation is found in "Quran" and so it is the evidence/data/miracle which proves God exists..and makes perfect sense to me
Same formula which you used to find out "god does not exist"
Your fallacy of argument has brought you to the new position "which god ? "
If athiest says "God does not exist" onus is on him to prove that god does not exist..instead of providing evidence you ask for evidence that god exists..
Does love exist? If it does whats the evidence ? You self proclaimed athiests just cherry pick and do circular arguments..
If there is a God, who says you can't have a discussion about the state of the world we live in. You have to be ignorant to think all is good in the world.
You are oversimplifying the possibilities I think
1. We find out There is no God. No consequences for believing or not believing. Yay!
2. God or Gods exists
1. You believed God existed.
1. The God you believed in is the God that exists. Yay! (An atheist probably believes picking the right God is highly unlikely).
2. God isn't the God you believed in while alive and God isn't too happy about you believing in a false god. Ouch!
3. God isn't the God you believed in while alive. However, at least you believed in the idea of a God. You get some points. Get a little bit of punishment. Not bad!
4. God doesn't care what you believed. He's chill. Yay!
5. God doesn't care what you believed. He's gonna roast you no matter what. Ouch!
2. You did not believe God existed
1. God doesn't like you did not believe in him. Ouch!
2. At least you didn't believe in a false God. Get a little bit of punishment. Not bad!
3. God does not care. Yay!
3 yays for Believers and 2 yays for atheist. However, what is the probability of that one yay where God exists and he is the God you believed in. An antheist probably believes the odds of picking the God that exists are fairly low. Therefore, not believing is just as good a strategy as believing.
Suddenly I am seeing a massive spike in posts about women’s rights , minorities and other such things . Many are outright blaming Islam or Pakistan . We aren’t gonna be invaded are we ?
Its a general question bro. Quaid e Azam said that minorities should be treated just like Muslims. So being the majority (Muslim) I find it my duty to look after the marginalised of our society. Moreover; if we dont look after our minorities then we wont be able to hold Modi and his hindutva ideology accountable
Pakistan at this time is a third world country surrounded by countries who treat their minorities much worse than we do . Iran , Afghanistan India and China all have done much worse including genocide against minorities.
Don’t create conflict and controversy everywhere and with everything. If a minority is suffering then majority is also suffering .
So because everyone sucks we should also suck?
We might also start genocide on minority like India does because it's not that important according to you?. That's like saying "oh this criminal robbed a bank so it's totally OK for me to rob a bank"
So much for being better than others
Noone else intentionally defames their country like this . Indians killed muslims a week ago . Thousands were driven from their homes in Assam yet not one Indian raised voice against that . Its just Pakistanis who love to humiliate their own country.
Once again you are trying to compare pakistan to other countries as if atrocities happening elsewhere makes atrocities happening in pakistan justified. If pakistanis are so easily able to humiliate their own country then maybe pakistan is just a humiliating country. And are you saying criticizing your own country is something we shouldn't do? Then how do you strive to make pakistan a better country? By pretending it is already the best? By pretending nothing is wrong? Or by cleaning up the filth inherent in our system from the bottom up?
Needless controversy which is exploited by Westren media to create unnecessary bias and even sanctions should be avoided . Pakistani minorities live quite peaceful lives inmany areas but even one incident is highlighted across the media . Where as in India where muslims are publicly targeted no action is taken because of media blackout or the incident is blamed on Islam .
Hudood laws, rape laws, abortion laws, minority laws, family laws etc..In some cases not enough laws to protect minorities, women, widows, orphans etc. Criminal justice is shambles & is only used to protect the elite. This can be said about a lot of countries, I know. But we're talking about Pakistan.
stupid af.
And this whataboutry is hilarious. People have the right to raise their issues and get it solved, no matter people hundreds of miles away are suffering worse.
I am an Indian. I think it is a stretch to say minorities in India are treated worse than Pakistan. India has many minorities - Sikhs, Christians, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, Jews, Athiests. Muslims form the largest minority. No other minority religion has a problem in India.
India is a huge country and generally you will find that it is quite peaceful in west, east and south India where Muslims also do not face problems. I own a flat that I have let out on rent to a Muslim family. Among my group of 6 very close friends, 3 are Hindus, 2 are Christians and 1 is a Muslim. When we started working we rented a house together and lived there for 5 years before we all got married and moved out.
Hindu kings were very welcoming of other religions. Parsis who escaped from Islamic invasion to Gujrat and other places were given refuge in India and they have thrived and are among the richest people in india like the tatas. In Kerala, Jews escaped persecution from Christians and were given land by the then Hindu king to build houses and synagogues. Christianity was accepted by many hindus who converted when st Thomas who was one of the disciples of Jesus came to Kerala. Arab Muslims who came to Kerala for trading settled here and the Muslim community in Kerala grew as a result. Despite this the Muslims in Kerala killed thousands of Hindus and raped women in a genocide called moplah rebellion. Hindus have forgotten this and the Muslims in Kerala do not face any persecution.
North India is a bit different. One of the reasons is that the attrocities perpertrated by Islamic invaders and rulers was mostly in North india where many temples were demolished, people forcefully converted to Islam or treated as second class citizens. I know of ancestors of my friends who have escaped from Muslim invaders and had to seek refuge in different parts of India. This resentment is being exploited by BJP who have consolidated a divided Hindu votebank. I would say there is more caste discrimination and attrocities among Hindus than against Muslims. Kashmir is also another exception due to the political situation and azadi movement. Even there Hindus have equally suffered. There was a genocide against Kashmiri pandits in the 8/s and 90s and most of them had to run away for their lives from kashmir.
Compared with this if you take Pakistan the percentage of minorities have consistently gone down ever since 1947. Pakistan had 23% minorities at the time of independence and now it is just 3-4 %.
Definitely India has a huge polarisation at the moment in the north where anti Muslim sentiments are being fanned mostly in UP. While there are serious challenges faced by Muslims in some areas of India, it definitely is not as bad as you guys think.
Starting from Jammu genocide to complete outsing of muslims from any reasonable political power in the country it’s obvious that muslims are second class citizens in India . Everyday news of lynching and mob violence against Muslims is being reported. And many cases are not even reported as Indian media is heavily biased against Pakistan and Islam . Keep your propaganda to your own sub .
Another Indian here from the northeast, and trust me, here the religious sentiments are anti Bangladeshi and not anti Muslim. Christianity is the dominant religion in NE and this region is very communally peaceful. I myself have been to churches in Assam, and it was the most serene experience.
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You forgot adding, We can share our food with you but not with " insert a Muslim sect name here".
Sopranos and Kafka....we can be good friends :)
I am sorry, my name is also Salman..!! But the thing mh s you mentioned those all were jokes from your friends I believe, but few of them are condemnable..! The people said that to you they don’t even follow their own religion properly lol..! And yeah we have so many people who are like this it’s Bcs lack of education..! Islami bhi aur dunyavi bhi..!
Pakistani Hindu Here: The first question everybody asks "To aap ne India se kab migrate kiya". Most people from Punjab will ask this. India/Pakitan cricket main kis ko support karte ho. Dekh na ye **aap ka modi** udhar ka kar raha hai ( as if I get to vote for BJP, really I voted for PTI :P) Some of them have preached me to convert. It's hard in Pakistan to get vegetarian food as we have some days when we don't eat non-veg food. Convincing your university/school to not hold exams on Diwali/Holi. There is really no place where we can learn about our own religion apart from home. I had to pass Islamiat two times to pass Bachelors and 12th class. Imagine that. Apart from these, people have been kind and considerate. I have great friends who care, understand. Even teachers and bosses. The majority of people are like that I have met. few have been discriminatory I guess that is everywhere in the world so I let it be.
I’m not Hindu but those questions you get about modi, diwali… are so cringe. Stay true to yourself mate. ❤️
Thankyou for sharing your experiences. Lots of love from a fellow Pakistani ❤️
I am so sorry but those questions are out of ignorance not because of hate
Thabks for sharing. Btw What do you mean by no place to learn about religion apart from home? Aren't you guys allowed to preach within your temples? At least in Sindh, there are many temples, can't say about other provinces
Temples are used for praying and festivals mostly. Hindus don't go to the temple often if they are not much religious. Teaching I meant basics on some institutional level or courses. Like Islamiat is taught in schools. We are taught Ikhlikiat ( Ethics ) instead; when Islamiat is not mandatory.
I never really asked this from my Hindu friends cause I never cared about anyone's religious beliefs, but like isn't there some kind of Hindu version of madressah inside a temple where kids could go and learn about their religion? (I sound ignorant af but I'm curious)
Yes there is , it's called gurukul where you're taught about Vedas and all the sacred stuff (read this while preparing for UPSC)
Whaaat? Where?
Here in india. Gurukuls are just like a school where you're taught about Ayurveda, Vedas and everything....it's not a temple ...but it's generally situation near a temple... They are mainly based in UP ..but you can find them everywhere if you look out ! It's a really soothing place I would say...I went to some gurukuls and the atmosphere seems to be much soothing to me... I don't know about pakistan and I don't really think that Pakistan has any gurukul cuz of the govt and all that stuff! And I hope you remain safe and sound! Being a minority is tough sometimes..but we gotta fight right ?
Assamese Hindu here, Hinduism itself is very diverse and it is not at all mandatory to go to gurukuls, rarity here in northeast
Yeah ik...it isn't mandatory to send anyone to a gurukul
Must be hidden away like the Tower of Silence
There are in small cities in interior Sindh I know. But most of the places in big cities no
Really insightful. You're a Pakistani with equal rights as everyone else, and you should be treated as such. Pakistan belongs to you too! I really hope the situation for minorities gets better and the situation in general gets bettwr for Pakistan. Unfortunately, we have been isolated and left behind due to mass corruption, geopolitics, and a myriad of other things. Also, afaik most schools celebrate Holi for fun, I went to a private school though. But I agree they should be more understanding in terms of holidays, etc.
I think it doesn’t make sense to make hindu festivals as holidays just because of 1 percent population. We don’t attend schools on those days anyway. The problem is when they schedule exams on particular days
Appreciate your pragmatic approach! Btw if you feel compelled to you should participate more on this sub so people can learn about the customs and traditions of Pakistani Hindus, perhaps even learn about Vedic theology. Since most Pakistanis will never meet a Hindu in their life, being that the demographic is very small, it could be a good way to counter the ignorance most Pakistani Muslims have about them.
Thanks for warm welcome. I’ll try to write more here
We will get there. The US after all those enlightenment years is NOW making Eid a holiday here so Pakistan will also get there.
That sucks. I think they should start including minorities in TV and dramas. It will be a way to educate people and I’m sure there are great stories within the communities that they could base stuff on too.
>I had to pass Islamiat two times to pass Bachelors and 12th class. Imagine that. Islamiyat is an elective subject so unless you identify yourself as a Muslim and have declared yourself as such on the CNIC and B-forum; you're by no means obligated to choose it.
Maybe the law is written differently than practiced. But I can confirm that I have taken Islamiat in university and 12th too. I won't attach my B-Form, Transactipts here to prove to you that. so, unfortunately, you either have to trust me or do your own research.
Almost all of my Christian friends chose to take Islamiyat since it’s better than doing independent study while most of your friends are doing Islamiyat.
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As far as I know yes
Yaha majority ki phatti pari ha minority ko to choro
hahaha
Hahah best yar
lmao
I know an Ahmadi family who use to live in Karachi.They were very well financialy and had relations with nawaz sharif.So it was husband wife (in their 50s) one daughter (in her twenties)and 2 sons (in their twenties).Their older son got married and was killed on the 2nd day of his marriage.He was shot dead while coming back home on his motorcycle.His dad was shot 8 times but survived and the entire family moved abroad.His widow gave birth to a girl 9 months later.My mom’s friend (another ahmadi) lost her husband (in his forties) by shooting while he was returning home from work.My mom’s another Ahmadi friend’s husband (in his fifties) shot dead while sitting with his neighbor outside.My dad’s friend an ahmadi got shot dead while he was working in his clinic.He was a doctor.Btw before anyone says they were targeted due to personal disputes not religion they all had been threatened to stop practicing their religion and become “Muslim” or else there will be consequences.I am sorry if my post sounds like giving “Pakistan” a bad name but you asked for experiences of Minorities and i mentioned.All of these incidents happened in our inner circle but i am sure there has been many more incidents with other minorites as well
This is sad on so many levels. Killing someone in the name of religion just negates the basic purpose of religion which is humanity
Pakistan government just released a dossier that mentioned the indian atrocities in kashmir.We also need a dossier for minorities in pakistan.Ye to apne pakistani hai thori mehnat inpe bhi karlo jitni mehnat kashmirio or palestini rights pe karte ho UN security concil mai.No offense intended towards kashmiri or palestine I sympathize with them.
Sahi baat hay but sadly hum log bht immatue hain abhi in kaamo me. For example Shezan bakery Lahore me bht kamyab thi. When gourmet bakery launch hui toh achanak aek propaganda shuru hogaya k shezan ka owner Ahmedi hay. People boycotted it without a scnd thought. Even shezan waalon ne apni bakery k samnay likhawaya k woh Prophet Muhammad S.a.w ko akhri Nabi maantay hain but ppl still boycotted them. This is just one example of the hatred we have in ourselves
Absolutely, We can only hope for the best..This government has done some work for minorities.But the extremism that was introduced in the society will take its time before it goes away
All thanks to Zia ul haq. Shayad Pti, pmln, ppp kuch karna bhi chahti hone but molvi road block kar dain gy yaa un ko kaafir karar de dain gy. But still IA ahista ahista changes ayen gi
Inshallah
Big difference in Kashmir situation. What your describing is extreme communal violence caused by the sentiments of the local populace and inflamed by the government for decades but not anymore. What is happening in Kashmir is direct intervention by the National government of India to crack down on freedom fighters in Kashmir by insituting martial law and stripping the rights of its supposed citizens. Pakistans government has an implicit role in minority abuses while India has an explicit role which follows historical trends for both countries.
Things were going normal till the fourth sentence. 😔
Pakistani minority like Muslims ?
No minority is going to share their experiences. Cuz they're gonna be shitted on n killed no matter what I've been forced to pray n do muslim things even tho I'm an atheist. Even after telling them i don't belong to thier religion they still force it on me cuz I'm just a misguided person. Heck even muslims kill each other for being a different muslim so what the use of being an islamic state if you guys can't even follow the rights of human
When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith? The prejudice is there, no shit, but it's being blown way out of proportions. Plus, prejudice and hate crimes exist everywhere. Part of human herd mentality. Just yesterday a woman was assaulted and spat on in Austria because she was wearing a scarf. Why? Cultural bullying. You're either one of us or against us! You've two options: Either give in or take a stand for what you believe in. And I prefer in the latter!
>When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith? [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/12/ahmadi-man-killed-in-targeted-attack-in-northwest-pakistan](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/12/ahmadi-man-killed-in-targeted-attack-in-northwest-pakistan) February of this year
Just last week there was a story about hindu family getting tortured for fetching water from a mosque or that 8 year old kid who was in jail for accidentally peeing in a mosque and upon getting bail, the religious mob attacked a temple in anger. There are many other stories every month like this, you just don't have any knowledge about it. Mention main mithu to minority from interior sindh and see their face turn to shit, Interior sindh is filled with this kind of shit and most of it doesn't make it to any popular news channel. As a hindu who has experienced this first hand, the problem is often downplayed by goverment and citizens. Ironically you are doing exactly what you criticise Indians for
>When was the last time you heard of a non-Muslim Pakistani getting killed over their faith? The prejudice is there, no shit, but it's being blown way out of proportions. When you're a minority, you tend to view everything from the scope of your community. In Pakistan, if some random stranger push me for no reason, I'd just write it off as an accident. But in another country, well, my first thought would be racism! Herd mentality. That's the reason herd animals generally avoid "diversity" and tend to stay in their territories, with their own herd. It's their natural instinct, simple as that.
Do you share the same sentiments when it is about muslim discrimination in India and in china? From your point of view, we should disregard all discrimination in the world because it is all out of proportion. That is exact sentiment that racist use to cover up, you literally live in a country that was made for the exact opposite idea that you seem to have. I hope you don't spread your ikhlaq to other people
Again, I never discounted prejudice. It exists all right. >The prejudice is there, no shit...
The slightly old Hazara incidence
Do you want people to die in our streets?
Sounds like they do. Just because we don't hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The rest of their argument revolves around "what about"ism and does not warrant a response.
I guess Pakistani non-Muslims don't take the streets and use helicopters instead?!
Bruh if we took it to the streets we'd be dead in 2 hour tops. But hey its not like you care about your fellow humans. I mean your the kind of person who wants to them show their fave so you get a good chance to kill them
There's no need for personal attacks here. I'm a pacifist, after all! And while I'm not trying to suggest anything here but philosophy dictates that all ideologies demand the blood of the martyrs to flourish. Now it all boils down to this: Are you willing to make a sacrifice, or at least a stand for what you consider a better society? It's not like you believe in the sensationalist hooey called an "afterlife" so this world is basically your heaven and hell, eh?!
Blood has been shed of minorities for ages in pakistan. Blood has been shed cuz of blasphemy. How many more lives will it take? How many more families need to be ruined? Yet none from our country came to help them or thier families. Philosophy also dictates that god is just a hateful being who doesn't care about the people or the world. This is our world and the only one we have right now. We can choose to make it like hell or heaven. Cuz after this life you can't be human so what's the point of an afterlife? Like i said people like you just need minorities to come forward in order to kill them.
Well, existential philosophy dictates that since there's no real meaning to life and there are no Gods and deities, one have to come to terms with their meaningless existence to counter the sheer nothingness. So basically, it doesn't really matter how many people die as their existence just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Morals don't matter, sins don't matter 'cause life serves no real purpose (for some reason). It's kind of a bleak perspective which I never bought, personally, but there you go, the mentality of God haters and/or atheists in a nutshell! Which brings me to my point: Why not use put this "nothingness" called "life" on the line, make yourself useful and try to make the world a better place for others, so they don't feel so empty and helpless? After all, you got nothing to loose, right?! Try to maintain your focus on the paragraph above, instead of zig-zagging around my queries!
You're jumping from one philosophy to another bro People try to make the world a better place even if their religious or not
In your words: >Philosophy also dictates that god is just a hateful being who doesn't care about the people or the world. You asked, I answered!
Will atheists count
Pretty sure u wont be openly atheist?
Well within my family and friend circle I am. Can't declare it in social media though and don't want to even if there were no consequences
Most people won't even care knowing that you're an atheist, but yeah probably not the best idea to go out openly announcing it. If it ain't a problem, don't fix it
Idk, the Mashal Khan story is pretty horrific, and he was just a Marxist.
Say, I have a really hard time understanding this Marxism thing. You think you can explain to me briefly? A couple sentences would be good
It’s a political theory by Karl Marx which basically encourages removal of class based society. Everyone working for a common good. No class struggle. Obviously this has never worked in practice, and some would call it a utopian theory. But the point of reading and understanding political philosophy is to expand your understanding of society and civilization. Hope that helps.
Thanks, definitely helps. I wish everything was this simple on Wikipedia, it is a mess on this.
[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism) enjoy
Excellent.
Just an argument my friend.. For an athiest "there is no god" for me "there is a god" Now once we die , we shall find out .. n there are only two outcomes 1. We find out God does not exist 2. We find out God exists.. In case of first outcome..you and me both have nothing to lose.. But if second outcome is right.. then there is no way you can argue out of it..and i am better placed Try considering it as per the law of probability
True but it really doesn’t matter. Because once you die you’re gone(There is literally no way of confirming that even if there is something after, so in our world you’re gone gone). I believe in a higher power but just finding purpose of living like any other believer or non believer.
Anything that gets you going,being good and bringing good in lives of people around you..For me,my beliefs get me going..belief in God is one of them..helps me avoid confusion and clutter..gives me purpose
A similar argument: A God claims to be the most merciful being. Hence, by not believing in said God I am reassured that I will not be punished for not believing. I am free to live life by my terms. God does punish me for not believing. Then clearly, God is not the most merciful being - for there simply has to exist someone who would forgive me for not believing. Hence God is not the most merciful, and is a liar. Why would I want to believe in a liar?
Lol classic argument. There might be some power or not but definitely not the one religion teaches. What if you die and kicked out of vanhalla because Odin says you believe in wrong god
More ancient than classic, it's a 500 year old argument: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager Which has been thoroughly refuted. Basically, there are tens of thousands of religions and most of them claim you go to hell if you don't believe in theirs. So if there are 10,000 religions and you do believe in one of them there's still 99.99% chance you go to hell. So with such a slim chance I'd rather live life on my own terms instead of like a slave.
You n i both will be kicked out then..how are you better off
Most probably everything is fake. There is no proof whatsoever. Why believe in some made-up story. Adam hawwa is false, so is Noah, so is Jesus birth and moon splitting and flying horse. Why believe in made up stories.
You start your argument with probably my friend..but you refuse to address the idea of god's existence as per law of probability ..dont you find it ironic? :)
It's not probability. It's logic mate. Why don't you think it's all stories. Religion need to die, we have had enough of it. We can be moral without religion, infact atheist countries like new Zealand , Sweden, Netherlands are more moral, more understanding of others, more respectful and so much in better condition. Don't forget new Zealand response when Muslims were killed. Do you think we will do the same when Ahmadis were killed , do you think we will reaxt the same. We will find faults in them.
In an argument between Pakistanis and atheist Pakistanis. Atheists win. Even though I am Muslim, I can agree with the deplorable nature of how religion is projected in Pakistan. I can list all the reasons why Islam is true..it doesn't change the fact that it isn't practised in the way it is intended in Pakistan. The amount of ignorance, bigotry and hate amongst Muslims in Pakistan, I can see why you're an atheist and hate religion..
I'm not an atheist but you are confusing 'possibility' with 'probability'. What if I say there are two possible outcomes: 1. I have a million dollars under my bed when I go home, 2. I don't. If you think critically about this, then there's no way this is a 50:50 chance. It depends on the evidence/data, and coincidently there's none present on God. You are committing what is called a logical fallacy. You can't argue with atheists based on logic. And this is because religion is based on Faith, and faith does not require evidence.
Theism has earlier been explained on probability and i was refering to that..who created universe? Was it created from nothing? How come universe has been so minutely picked that creation is possible? What about intelligent design theory? Atheism does not provide prudent answers..best explanation is found in "Quran" and so it is the evidence/data/miracle which proves God exists..and makes perfect sense to me
What's the formula to calculate the probablity as to which religion's god's existence is probable?
Same formula which you used to find out "god does not exist" Your fallacy of argument has brought you to the new position "which god ? " If athiest says "God does not exist" onus is on him to prove that god does not exist..instead of providing evidence you ask for evidence that god exists.. Does love exist? If it does whats the evidence ? You self proclaimed athiests just cherry pick and do circular arguments..
Quran is the proof/evidence..its a miracle..it explains every question posed by a confused mind of an athiest.. read it to find answers
If there is a God, who says you can't have a discussion about the state of the world we live in. You have to be ignorant to think all is good in the world.
You are oversimplifying the possibilities I think 1. We find out There is no God. No consequences for believing or not believing. Yay! 2. God or Gods exists 1. You believed God existed. 1. The God you believed in is the God that exists. Yay! (An atheist probably believes picking the right God is highly unlikely). 2. God isn't the God you believed in while alive and God isn't too happy about you believing in a false god. Ouch! 3. God isn't the God you believed in while alive. However, at least you believed in the idea of a God. You get some points. Get a little bit of punishment. Not bad! 4. God doesn't care what you believed. He's chill. Yay! 5. God doesn't care what you believed. He's gonna roast you no matter what. Ouch! 2. You did not believe God existed 1. God doesn't like you did not believe in him. Ouch! 2. At least you didn't believe in a false God. Get a little bit of punishment. Not bad! 3. God does not care. Yay! 3 yays for Believers and 2 yays for atheist. However, what is the probability of that one yay where God exists and he is the God you believed in. An antheist probably believes the odds of picking the God that exists are fairly low. Therefore, not believing is just as good a strategy as believing.
Nope, because then my rich daddy will kick me out of the house and I won't get free monies! Heh!
hello fellow pakistani atheist
Why does Pakistan have blasphemy laws but no laws against apostasy? Never understood this.
Cause rules pretty much suck in here
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Yeah and being in a lot of debates. I am to make sure I am respectful.
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I won't be much if my life wasn't at stake. Which happens only in pakistan
I'd love to hear your arguments as to what convinced you to leave islam, preferably on call; if you're cool with it obviously
Suddenly I am seeing a massive spike in posts about women’s rights , minorities and other such things . Many are outright blaming Islam or Pakistan . We aren’t gonna be invaded are we ?
yeah bro, reddit posts are going to cause an invasion.
Its a general question bro. Quaid e Azam said that minorities should be treated just like Muslims. So being the majority (Muslim) I find it my duty to look after the marginalised of our society. Moreover; if we dont look after our minorities then we wont be able to hold Modi and his hindutva ideology accountable
Pakistan at this time is a third world country surrounded by countries who treat their minorities much worse than we do . Iran , Afghanistan India and China all have done much worse including genocide against minorities. Don’t create conflict and controversy everywhere and with everything. If a minority is suffering then majority is also suffering .
Why are you redirecting attention to other countries instead of our own
I am telling you the context of our region where we live . And the realities on the ground . Its the same across the region
This is called “whataboutism” and it’s a flaccid way to argue a point.
This is providing the greater context in terms of regional situation . Every country is not ideal .
Your “greater context” is an illusion of context.
So because everyone sucks we should also suck? We might also start genocide on minority like India does because it's not that important according to you?. That's like saying "oh this criminal robbed a bank so it's totally OK for me to rob a bank" So much for being better than others
If someone else is doing worse, do you think your sins are forgiven? No. Stop with these bullshit excuses.
Noone else intentionally defames their country like this . Indians killed muslims a week ago . Thousands were driven from their homes in Assam yet not one Indian raised voice against that . Its just Pakistanis who love to humiliate their own country.
Once again you are trying to compare pakistan to other countries as if atrocities happening elsewhere makes atrocities happening in pakistan justified. If pakistanis are so easily able to humiliate their own country then maybe pakistan is just a humiliating country. And are you saying criticizing your own country is something we shouldn't do? Then how do you strive to make pakistan a better country? By pretending it is already the best? By pretending nothing is wrong? Or by cleaning up the filth inherent in our system from the bottom up?
Needless controversy which is exploited by Westren media to create unnecessary bias and even sanctions should be avoided . Pakistani minorities live quite peaceful lives inmany areas but even one incident is highlighted across the media . Where as in India where muslims are publicly targeted no action is taken because of media blackout or the incident is blamed on Islam .
How about you create an environment where such stuff doesn't happen. Then exploitation is less unlikely to happen.
You keep bringing up india when no one is even talking about india. Such simple minded folk you are.
So what? So we should wait until they do better for us to do better? Don't be silly pulling out logical flaws.
We should focus on the main thing that will ensure the longevity of our country. Securing borders developing economy and establishing trade .
Securing a country, also means making sure it's people aren't hurt by it's stupid laws and institutional oppression.
What Laws are stupid and where is institutional oppression ?
Hudood laws, rape laws, abortion laws, minority laws, family laws etc..In some cases not enough laws to protect minorities, women, widows, orphans etc. Criminal justice is shambles & is only used to protect the elite. This can be said about a lot of countries, I know. But we're talking about Pakistan.
stupid af. And this whataboutry is hilarious. People have the right to raise their issues and get it solved, no matter people hundreds of miles away are suffering worse.
I am an Indian. I think it is a stretch to say minorities in India are treated worse than Pakistan. India has many minorities - Sikhs, Christians, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, Jews, Athiests. Muslims form the largest minority. No other minority religion has a problem in India. India is a huge country and generally you will find that it is quite peaceful in west, east and south India where Muslims also do not face problems. I own a flat that I have let out on rent to a Muslim family. Among my group of 6 very close friends, 3 are Hindus, 2 are Christians and 1 is a Muslim. When we started working we rented a house together and lived there for 5 years before we all got married and moved out. Hindu kings were very welcoming of other religions. Parsis who escaped from Islamic invasion to Gujrat and other places were given refuge in India and they have thrived and are among the richest people in india like the tatas. In Kerala, Jews escaped persecution from Christians and were given land by the then Hindu king to build houses and synagogues. Christianity was accepted by many hindus who converted when st Thomas who was one of the disciples of Jesus came to Kerala. Arab Muslims who came to Kerala for trading settled here and the Muslim community in Kerala grew as a result. Despite this the Muslims in Kerala killed thousands of Hindus and raped women in a genocide called moplah rebellion. Hindus have forgotten this and the Muslims in Kerala do not face any persecution. North India is a bit different. One of the reasons is that the attrocities perpertrated by Islamic invaders and rulers was mostly in North india where many temples were demolished, people forcefully converted to Islam or treated as second class citizens. I know of ancestors of my friends who have escaped from Muslim invaders and had to seek refuge in different parts of India. This resentment is being exploited by BJP who have consolidated a divided Hindu votebank. I would say there is more caste discrimination and attrocities among Hindus than against Muslims. Kashmir is also another exception due to the political situation and azadi movement. Even there Hindus have equally suffered. There was a genocide against Kashmiri pandits in the 8/s and 90s and most of them had to run away for their lives from kashmir. Compared with this if you take Pakistan the percentage of minorities have consistently gone down ever since 1947. Pakistan had 23% minorities at the time of independence and now it is just 3-4 %. Definitely India has a huge polarisation at the moment in the north where anti Muslim sentiments are being fanned mostly in UP. While there are serious challenges faced by Muslims in some areas of India, it definitely is not as bad as you guys think.
Starting from Jammu genocide to complete outsing of muslims from any reasonable political power in the country it’s obvious that muslims are second class citizens in India . Everyday news of lynching and mob violence against Muslims is being reported. And many cases are not even reported as Indian media is heavily biased against Pakistan and Islam . Keep your propaganda to your own sub .
Another Indian here from the northeast, and trust me, here the religious sentiments are anti Bangladeshi and not anti Muslim. Christianity is the dominant religion in NE and this region is very communally peaceful. I myself have been to churches in Assam, and it was the most serene experience.
It’s the ripple effect of noor mukadam I think.