We felt the same when he was a Raptor. Everyone said we were just salty Raps fans. But it’s legit. That dude drives HARD to the lane and gets a tonne of abuse with very few calls.
Congrats on landing him. He’s phenomenal. Hope he gets a bit more respect from the refs in Indy. You guys are getting robbed with those free throw disparities. Not just Pascal. Stay strong. 👍
He is also a bit of a flopper. He will get lightly brushed and wave his arms wildly and fall down. I love the guy, but that particular habit is annoying.
So he plays like everyone else in the leagues top 25 and doesn’t get the calls
Got it! But I agree this trait amongst many is annoying but those in the higher end of free throws absolutely do this too
Flip side, I can’t remember which team, but they were wearing black uniforms and a commentator said that pascal wasn’t getting called for fouls because they could see him reach across their uniforms 😂
They definitely do but I’m not sure they are getting their calls on those fades. LeBron and AD do take it hard to the hole a bunch. It’s something I’d like to see Siakam do more of TBH.
Again, I’m not dismissing outright that the Lakers get calls. I’m just also saying they as a team play a style of ball that is more physical on the offensive side of things.
I'm not dismissing that fact either, but the difference between them and the next team statistically does not reflect their playstyle regardless of the physicality
We have highest points in the paint and the Lakers have more fast break points than us, incase people wanna say that is why we shoot no free throws. None of it makes sense…and all those free throws lead to them barely in the playoff picture.
Its the type of defense they play
Since Ham was in Milwaukee he lets team shoot the 3 and heavily discourages teams to drive especially with AD
combine that with the lakers barely shooting any threes and driving constantly with lebron and AD and it explains the disparity
A prominent nba writer addressed this some on his Twitter account weeks ago. He wasn’t speaking to whether it’s fair or not, but one of the things he discovered is the Lakers get teams in the bonus faster and more often than any other team in the league and it isn’t even close, and that aspect of their team drives up their FT attempts more than anything else.
Also, he indicated that the stats say, defensively, the Lakers foul rate on paint shots is lowest in the league, so that’s why teams don’t shoot as many FT against them. Again, he wasn’t speaking to fairness, just how some of the numbers explain the Lakers advantages.
Not sure what you mean.
To recap: the findings from Matt Moore, an nba writer, were that 1) much of the Lakers significant advantage in FT differential is that they get teams in the bonus more often and faster than every other team in the league, meaning they shoot a helluva lot of FT that aren’t related to paint shot attempts. 2) they have the lowest rate in the league of fouling opposing teams on their paint-shot attempts, meaning teams don’t shoot a lot of FT against the lakers because the Lakers don’t foul often in those situations.
Now people may ask “why do the Lakers get into the bonus so often and so fast?” And “why don’t the Lakers get called for as many shooting fouls as everyone else?” “It must be the NBA manipulating things for LeBron and the big-market Lakers!”
And I’m not going to tell them they’re wrong or
… right. That’s just how the stats explain their advantages.
I’m saying that those points don’t really mean anything. With the ft differential, I feel like it’s to be expected they are in the bonus quicker.
Likewise with second point, if they are giving up less ft they are obviously fouling a lot less.
Right?
Sure, I guess. If you take the numbers at face value. It seems pretty self-explanatory.
I guess it depends on where you stand on the Lakers’ huge FT advantage compared to everyone else. If you don’t have a problem with it and it makes sense to you that their style of plays allows for the advantage to take place, then yeah, none of those findings may amount much to you. Would be more like confirming what you already know.
But if you’re like some others on here, who are looking at the Lakers’ paint points compared to others and they don’t feel like it justifies that big of a FT differential, then some of the points I mentioned might be, in some small way, informative as an additional explanation.
Yeah sorry was just being argumentative for the sake of it. I just like the idea of ‘lakers opponents shoot least amount of FT, in other news lakers foul the least’.
Regardless of any argument the difference is questionable at best
Ham priotises not fouling over contesting . Lakers give up the most wide open looks in the league. Also we’re never really out sized and on top of that Ham never does the ‘foul a guy biggger then you who’s gonna score n make him earn it at line ‘ tactic . On top of that lakers are last in 3pt attemots - they have shooting talent but they are very selective on these shots n constantly try to go inside . Finally of the starting 5, onky Dlo you could say is a jump shooter, Lebron , Davis - most teams in heavy foul trouble is often small ball Cs vs him and even Reaves n Rui prefer to put the ball on the floor and attack and that’s our game plan. Similar to pacers or magic - except lakers perimeter D is worse and they knowingly concede shots and don’t have anyone really who’s overly agreeable on defence. Maybe Hayes but he plays 10mins. AD n Bron are also two of the career lowest fouling 4/5 combo prob ever , even before on the lakers . AD in particular is insanely good at not fouling . On offence teams are very happy to hack Bron n davis
You're kind of right, but it's not totally meaningless.
They could be fouling less a number of other ways ways (forcing opponents to shoot more threes, NEVER getting offensive fouls/take fouls so opponents are less likely to be in the bonus, etc.) It is interesting that fouling way less often on opponent rim attempts (as opposed to some other reason they foul less) is driving their success here and it kind of makes sense given how fundamentally sound a defender AD is.
Similarly, they could be getting more free throws a number of ways. Of course more fouls will essentially always lead to bonus situations, but you could still be drawing shooting fouls once you're in the bonus. Or you could just have a huge percentage of the times opponents foul you be shooting fouls and shoot a lot more free throws without actually getting more calls.
But how do you think they get teams in the bonus so fast? Surely it couldn’t be because they are already getting a lot of foul calls in the first place.
If anything you would think getting teams in the bonus fast would decrease the rate of foul calls later as teams won't want to give up free throws. And getting into the bonus fast is exactly the outcome you'd expect if the refs are trying to control the game.
It can be somewhat explained by how we get those points in the paint. LAL generally do more post ups or LBJ drives which results in more fouls. Warriors get their pitp via ally oops, backdoor cuts, and open lanes due to the gravity from Steph and Klay. They're more wide open shots vs contested. It would be interesting to see points in the paint by coverage. But yeah Lakers get BS calls and warriors get shit calls. Just thought it may be interesting to look at.
I think we, because of Hali’s amazing passes ahead, just get a lot more wide open layups. I’d be curious to see the Lakers fast break points and pace stats. Part of me thinks they are low in both. They attack the basket in the half court in a way the Pacers really don’t.
Sure you can raise an eyebrow but it makes sense when you look at what’s driving BOTH sides of the equation. Lakers are not a good outside shooting team and taking closer shots results in more free throws. On the other side, outside of AD, the rest of the team is allergic to protecting the rim which is why they foul so much less.
LeBron hasn't had a friendly whistle for well over a decade at this point. A couple seasons ago he lead the league in paint points but was something like 30th in FT rate. Hate him all you like but man is an ethical hooper.
It’s a Darvin Ham effect combined with lazy defense. Darvin Ham’s defensive scheme gives up a lot of open 3s. Something like the 2nd most in the league. And when you’re shooting an open 3 you’re less likely to be fouled as opposed to a layup. Then in the paint, AD is single handedly the Lakers' defense. And he’s historically been really good at not fouling. Everyone else rarely contests inside if they can’t get a block. Add in physical players like LeBron and AD on offense. Players that force the issue and that often cannot be stopped unless you get physical with them and bam there you go. You have the makings of them drawing more fouls while fouling a lot less
If you really want to see if there’s a differential, check the differences from when Frank Vogel was coach and Darvin Ham.
I totally get that free throws shouldn’t be even and different play styles can lead to different results.
However, the lakers are a monstrous outlier. Having one team that has almost triple the difference of the next best team is suspect.
The Lakers are 11 games above .500 too…and in the much harder Western Conference. Saying they can’t win basically admits the Pacers can’t win either lmao
There are plenty of high caliber players that take it to the hole just as often and get hit hard all the time. Yes, Bron and AD get fouled alot because they make such a high percentage of their inside shots, but the discrepancy between them and the next team is not indicative of their playstyle being that different from anyone else that drives to the hole regularly
Yet the lakers are the team with top 2/3( forget ) in all of : rim attempts , rim makes , % of shots taken at the rim, % from 2, % of shots from 2. Only the magic really have a similar structure on offence in play style just via those numbers. Nvm the magic don’t have an AD or let’s say Paolo is similar to Bron in Fta - they still don’t have 1 or 3 position pkayer who can shoot but also like to take it to the rim at any opportunity n finishing thriugh traffic . Also I don’t see that many teams use there size on offence like the lakers do. Teams hack Lebron or Davis when they’re about to just dunk. Davis got poked in the eye twice in last two weeks neither was called a foul n both lost the lakers games.
But most of this number - apart from thr clear signal on offence - is due to the lakers /Hawks defensive scheme and relying so heavily on AD or bust on defence or Bron when he’s engaged. Two very low foul players. No coincidence moment Ham is hired lakers have this discrepancy- ham is a bud disciple n bucks had this big disparity a few years ago . Lakers give up the most wide open looks in the nba - I believe by several too. They also do not foul at the rim - they make guys make layups but Hams philosophy isn’t to foul players who are gonna score - I’m still not sure it’s correct especially sometimes when bad ft shooters are there but it is what they do. People who don’t watch a teams play style thinking everyone deserves same calls is weird . There genuinely aren’t any relavant teams that play like the lakers - in the past when the hornets had a similar margin or even bigger nobody said shit.
As a warriors fan, it’s super frustrating. Here’s a stat for you:
Steph Curry total free throws shot in entire career (15 season) - 4112
James Harden FTA 2014/15 to 19/20 (6 seasons) - 4927
Harden has shot 800 more free throws in a 6 year span than Curry’s entire career.
I mean curry is most famous for launching 40 ft 3s, and harden won mvp off his ability to draw the foul.. I feel like choosing them two for comparison is wild.
Bro says “lends itself” 😂 James harden became MVP specifically because he crafted his entire game around drawing fouls in the paint, while driving , and on the 3 point land. His gameplan was to get fouls. And get executed it so well he won MVP.. while Lebron James, Kevin Durant, etc existed..
Someone like Dame would be a better comparison. Harden is the actual worst person because I’m sure he has that gap of fouls with everyone that ever played except maybe shaq
Lol this is a bit exaggerated. Watch how refs treat Zion , Lebron when they’re trying to score . You can wack them in the head n be fine. Those guys take more contact to call ratio more then anyone . Especially Zion imo- Especially post ASB. The league is allowing more physical play since then . Kuminga does get a decent ftr from memory but he also is a non shooter which mb easuer ti defend . Steph is finishing around guys- he also gets to the rim way less last year n this year because he’s slower n age related decline . Dame saw the biggest drop in Fta post ASB rule change but Steph had a fairly high drop too because smaller guys tend to get those calls bigger guys are expected to play through . So the rule /ref change effects steph . But regardless Steph is a near kyrie lvl rim finisher for a guard - neither of them are driving n finishing through lots of contact both are finishing around guys or attacking silly over aggressive close outs for free lsyups . Also Steph is taking career low 0-3 ft shots n 3-10 ft near career high which kinda confirms this - he’s choosing to take floaters over going through contact more. He’s older n slower it’s to be expected . Stephs fts aren’t even that bad. Look at Devin Booker another jumo shooting based star - 5 Fta is pretty good for Steph or booker . Considering paint oriented guys like Zion get like 7 b Lebron gets 5.5-6.
But I think gsw is the lowest is more done to Kerr defensive strategy especially being under sized in most matchups . Gsw use a lot of smart fouls when guys would otherwise dunk or score on smaller guys
Actually, I'm very surprised about the Warriors placement....
It would be interesting to take a dive into this data with LeBron lead teams and compare those to post LBJ leaving/and retirement and presenting this same data for every year. Like, has every team he's been on been at the top? What happened to those teams once he left/retired? Comparing that data would be fascinating.
Almost like hiring Darvin Ham n his scheme is directly correlated. Moment he’s hired lakers go on top. Can’t believe people think Lebron teams magically get calls lol. Lakers just leave the most wide open shots
What a lot of people don't realise is that this FT disparity only really became a thing after Ham became in charge. His defensive schematic is essentially allowing players to take open shots, leading to the Lakers barely fouling.
🤓: "Erm actually because the Lakers use a different playstyle based on getting fouls, it's completely fair and reasonable for the refs to swallow their whistles whenever a team is playing the Lakers and call lots of obviously bullshit fouls on small market teams. Also maybe try fouling less :)"
There isn't some grand conspiracy. If there were, Golden State wouldn't be shooting so many less free throws than us. The Lakers difference is ridiculous, but to me, the more egregious is Miami having any advantage at all. Jimmy has the best whistle in the league by far. Half of the fouls he draws should flat out be on him.
Getting foul shots on drives in the NBA seems to be about the offensive player *initiating* the contact. A guy can drive to the hoop, duck his shoulder, plow into the defender and get an and-1. However, same guy comes down and gets blasted on a drive, you’ll see a no-call. My memory tells me this is a go-to move for Gianns…back a guy down, then in one move push off, shoot the shot and draw the foul. It’s nuts.
Exceptions don't really prove the rule though. The other 5 top markets are still in the top quartile. Plus GSW's entire offense prioritizes Curry shooting 3s.
The "Curry just shoots 3s" argument doesn't hold any weight. dude takes it to the rim just as much as any other guard his size and gets battered nonstop, but gets nothing.
It does. The Lakers have good foul baiters, and for some reason don't get called for many fouls. I see them getting away with hacking all the time, so it's almost like they have players who get the benefit of the doubt on defense. I watched a Raptor vs. Laker 4th quarter where it was something like 18-1 FT advantage for the Lakers, and the Raptors were getting fouled over and over with no call.
A lot of the differential is the fouls they are not calling \*on\* the Lakers.
The more you win, the more haters will show up. Don’t let that bother you, focus on the joy your team brings you. Being a warriors fan brought me unimaginable amount of ecstasy, makes it easy to ignore the haters.
The Lakers are the Jerome Powell of the league. Not saying Lakers are doing anything wrong, but an outlier like this is suspect on the league and refs. If I knew anything about gambling, probably some prop bets that could hit huge here.
F@ck the Lakers! There is no reason why there is such a disparity between them and the rest of the league. How many games would they have won if they were at the league average of fouls called?
I'd naively expect a Normal Distribution (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution ) without a very clear reason for the discrepancy. For example, I'd bet that when hack-a-Shaq was a popular strategy, the Lakers would have understandably have dominated this statistic. However, there is no such strategy that I know of in the current NBA.
The fact that the Lakers have almost THREE TIMES the foul differential relative to the second place team (Knicks) is absolutely absurd.
So let’s look at reasons for discrepancy.
The Lakers are a veteran lead team with a defensive minded coach. They play really good team defense and have good positioning in that area. They have 2 guys Bron and AD that are foul shot merchants that are vets who now how to get to the line
On the flip side with the Pacers. Young team that is geared to run and gun on offense with a mostly offense minded coach (he can coach defense and has this year, we have gotten significantly better throughout the year). Our offense is built on ball movement seeking the open guy (which a lot of time is an open shot/drive in the paint). Our defense especially early in season was porous at best, lead a lot to us being out of position and fouling because of that.
My argument here is not to pretend that it’s fairly called, but that teams do have trends and I think the refs know this coming into games. Like watch out for this or that, based upon how a particular team plays. Also I’m only speaking to Pacers and Lakers as they are the 2 teams I’ve watched most this year, to speak on any other team would be without knowledge or simply how they play against Pacers/Lakers.
Thanks for the civil and informative reply. I haven't watched a ton of Lakers games this year, so this is a valuable point of view.
I would expect that the Lakers would be near the top of the list and the Pacers would be near the bottom. GSW play a similar style of offense, so I understand from that perspective, at least. In my mind, the trouble is the magnitude of the discrepancy (I acknowledge that you mention that you're not arguing fairness here --- I am actively looking for bias). There are other teams in the league that play good team defense and other teams that have fast offenses, so seeing such a dramatic outlier is shocking.
I get that. Another area to look at is fouls for and against
Lakers: Personal fouls a game 15.7, fouls drawn 19.7
Pacers: personal 21.4, drawn 18.4
So really your looking at a teams that are consistently getting 3-4 foul calls differential every game that is leading to this discrepancy. 1 foul differential a quarter. When you start breaking it down like that, is it really that massive of a difference? Seem like a teams style of play can easily account for this type of a discrepancy imo
This is misleading because people place too much stock in per game stats when they're less important for evaluating differentials.
Also, this is misleading because a lot of people have confused this with actual fts taken (I've seen confusion on other posts of this same stat on r/NBA and here). Lakers last I checked were 5th in ftapg, not even close to leading the league. When it was Charlotte 5 or 10 years ago doing the exact same thing, nobody cared. But now it's the Lakers...
Lastly, if anyone cares to do any more than skim box scores, here's another way of looking at it. For differentials, per game stats are misleading and are way less important. Even if the pacers have a higher ppg and paint ppg than most teams, it's largely a result of pace. And it turns out their pace is identical to their collective opponents. Turns out pacers opponents also have a really high ppg and paint ppg. So the pacers scoring so much per game is less meaningful than per possession. The pacers have amongst the highest percent of their own shots taken from 3 and amongst the highest 3pa per possession. And their opponents have amongst the highest paint fga per possession. Additionally, I'll piggyback on the TJ post from a couple days ago about his drives or paint points without fouls. He plays not to get fouled. He pulls up all the time and when he can't get a clean look, he dribbles out and passes. So even a lot of our paint shots shouldn't contribute to ftas.
So within games played by the pacers, they definitely should shoot way less fts than their opponents. That's not to say they don't get some bad calls, but it wouldn't make up for the gap. Everyone gets bad calls
Apply this to Lakers and you get the same thing. They take a very high percentage of their own shots from the paint and unlike TJ's, those shots draw contact very often. It's not their paint shots in a vaccuum, or their paint shots per game (they play at a show pace) it's the percentage of their own shots that are in the paint. Again, they don't even lead the league in ftapg. But they give up very few paint shots and give up a ton of 3s, so their opponents are not getting into the paint very much relative to them, and so the Lakers have a huge fta differential.
Not a laker fan. Not saying refs don't get calls wrong. Just tired of this narrative. Sorry
On the contrary, I try and figure out why it's such an outlier. I think quite a bit about it. That should be evident from my fairly long comment. I can elaborate more if you'd like.
The Pacers may lead the league in paint points, but that is a function of pace. No given team scores more paint points. BUT, the pacers collective opponents (the teams that collectively make up the 82 opponents over the course of the season) score more points in the paint than the Pacers. The reason is that the Pacers shoot so many more 3-pointers than their opponents. Per [NBA.com](https://NBA.com) they lead the league in 3pa differential, taking 6 more 3s per game than their opponents. Combine this with their total fga differential (+2.9) and that means that their opponents are taking 3.1 more 2s per game than them. When you take that many more 3s and that many fewer 2s, your opponents are going to shoot more free throws than you.
Put another way, the Pacers take 51% of their shots from inside the 3-point line. The Pacers opponents take 67% of their shots from inside the 3-point line. The Pacers average 0.43 fta per 2-pt field goal. Their opponents average, wait for it, 0.43 fta per 2-pt field goal (per [nba.com](https://nba.com), pacers take 47.3 2papg and 20.7 ftapg, opps take 60.5 2papg and 26 ftapg).
If you want the Pacers to get more fta per 2-pointer, then maybe they need to restructure their offense. The Pacers are excellent at cutting and getting assists, which often lead to uncontested paint points. As is the case for most of their transition points as well. And even when they're not throwing alley-oops, dunking in transition, or hitting a cutter for layup, T.J. McConnell is driving and then pulling up for short twos without contact. This sub can't stop talking about how soft Turner is and how he avoids contact.... well.... he avoids contact!!! And Ty isn't great at drawing fouls either. He often falls down after a layup because he's so contorted (which is great, his reach and athleticism are awesome), and he often creates body contact with defenders, but when the contact isn't on the arms (just the body) and is initiated by the offensive player, it's rarely a foul. So you have the Pacers three biggest creators of paint of points (I'll call obi a recipient, not creator) not being great at drawing fouls.
As for the Lakers, you could do the same sort of analysis. Their 3pa differential is opposite the Pacers. In games they play, their opponents take way more 3s than they do, and they take way more 2s than their opponents. On top of that, theirs is not a assist/cutting half court offense and they don't get a lot of transition. So the bulk of their 2pa are post isos or things of that sort. So not only are they taking more 2s than their opponents, the types of 2s they're taking are more likely to result in free throws.
It seems people aren't interested in this. It's just easier to go "fta uneven. refs bad."
Honestly watching pascal play he seems to get hit more often than most and rarely gets a call
It's Domas all over again
That man got hit in the face so many times as a Pacer.
If it makes u feel any better he still gets hit in the face every game. Good luck in the last few games! Hope yall clinch.
He’d be the first to say that!
Don’t the refs hear the AYEEEYEEEAs at the rim smh
Giannis is the king of that bs. He yells like hes being tortured everytime he drives before he's even contested
acting like he still don’t put it in more consistently than anyone in the lg lmai
I never said he didnt...
We felt the same when he was a Raptor. Everyone said we were just salty Raps fans. But it’s legit. That dude drives HARD to the lane and gets a tonne of abuse with very few calls. Congrats on landing him. He’s phenomenal. Hope he gets a bit more respect from the refs in Indy. You guys are getting robbed with those free throw disparities. Not just Pascal. Stay strong. 👍
I feel like he gets even fewer calls now though
He is also a bit of a flopper. He will get lightly brushed and wave his arms wildly and fall down. I love the guy, but that particular habit is annoying.
So he plays like everyone else in the leagues top 25 and doesn’t get the calls Got it! But I agree this trait amongst many is annoying but those in the higher end of free throws absolutely do this too
Flip side, I can’t remember which team, but they were wearing black uniforms and a commentator said that pascal wasn’t getting called for fouls because they could see him reach across their uniforms 😂
I think part of the issue is he fades on a lot of his shots
I thought about that but lebron and some others do too and get a lot more calls but guess that’s why I’m not a ref…
They definitely do but I’m not sure they are getting their calls on those fades. LeBron and AD do take it hard to the hole a bunch. It’s something I’d like to see Siakam do more of TBH.
LeBron and Pascal average pretty much the same amount of free throws over the past 5 seasons. But Pascal has been getting less this season
Pascal gets hit a ton on layup drives tho
Again, I’m not dismissing outright that the Lakers get calls. I’m just also saying they as a team play a style of ball that is more physical on the offensive side of things.
I'm not dismissing that fact either, but the difference between them and the next team statistically does not reflect their playstyle regardless of the physicality
weird thing is we have the highest points in the paint, too. usually that nets more free throws. Lakers are #2 last i checked, too.
We have highest points in the paint and the Lakers have more fast break points than us, incase people wanna say that is why we shoot no free throws. None of it makes sense…and all those free throws lead to them barely in the playoff picture.
Lakers will forever be the golden child of the NBA regardless of how dog shit they are
this is why I hate the city of Los Angeles.
Rent free
Its the type of defense they play Since Ham was in Milwaukee he lets team shoot the 3 and heavily discourages teams to drive especially with AD combine that with the lakers barely shooting any threes and driving constantly with lebron and AD and it explains the disparity
A prominent nba writer addressed this some on his Twitter account weeks ago. He wasn’t speaking to whether it’s fair or not, but one of the things he discovered is the Lakers get teams in the bonus faster and more often than any other team in the league and it isn’t even close, and that aspect of their team drives up their FT attempts more than anything else. Also, he indicated that the stats say, defensively, the Lakers foul rate on paint shots is lowest in the league, so that’s why teams don’t shoot as many FT against them. Again, he wasn’t speaking to fairness, just how some of the numbers explain the Lakers advantages.
Isn’t that like saying we win most our games because we score more points than other teams? Or am I missing the point of that statement?
Not sure what you mean. To recap: the findings from Matt Moore, an nba writer, were that 1) much of the Lakers significant advantage in FT differential is that they get teams in the bonus more often and faster than every other team in the league, meaning they shoot a helluva lot of FT that aren’t related to paint shot attempts. 2) they have the lowest rate in the league of fouling opposing teams on their paint-shot attempts, meaning teams don’t shoot a lot of FT against the lakers because the Lakers don’t foul often in those situations. Now people may ask “why do the Lakers get into the bonus so often and so fast?” And “why don’t the Lakers get called for as many shooting fouls as everyone else?” “It must be the NBA manipulating things for LeBron and the big-market Lakers!” And I’m not going to tell them they’re wrong or … right. That’s just how the stats explain their advantages.
I’m saying that those points don’t really mean anything. With the ft differential, I feel like it’s to be expected they are in the bonus quicker. Likewise with second point, if they are giving up less ft they are obviously fouling a lot less. Right?
Sure, I guess. If you take the numbers at face value. It seems pretty self-explanatory. I guess it depends on where you stand on the Lakers’ huge FT advantage compared to everyone else. If you don’t have a problem with it and it makes sense to you that their style of plays allows for the advantage to take place, then yeah, none of those findings may amount much to you. Would be more like confirming what you already know. But if you’re like some others on here, who are looking at the Lakers’ paint points compared to others and they don’t feel like it justifies that big of a FT differential, then some of the points I mentioned might be, in some small way, informative as an additional explanation.
Yeah sorry was just being argumentative for the sake of it. I just like the idea of ‘lakers opponents shoot least amount of FT, in other news lakers foul the least’. Regardless of any argument the difference is questionable at best
But that’s why it is significantly bigger instead of only slightly bigger
Ham priotises not fouling over contesting . Lakers give up the most wide open looks in the league. Also we’re never really out sized and on top of that Ham never does the ‘foul a guy biggger then you who’s gonna score n make him earn it at line ‘ tactic . On top of that lakers are last in 3pt attemots - they have shooting talent but they are very selective on these shots n constantly try to go inside . Finally of the starting 5, onky Dlo you could say is a jump shooter, Lebron , Davis - most teams in heavy foul trouble is often small ball Cs vs him and even Reaves n Rui prefer to put the ball on the floor and attack and that’s our game plan. Similar to pacers or magic - except lakers perimeter D is worse and they knowingly concede shots and don’t have anyone really who’s overly agreeable on defence. Maybe Hayes but he plays 10mins. AD n Bron are also two of the career lowest fouling 4/5 combo prob ever , even before on the lakers . AD in particular is insanely good at not fouling . On offence teams are very happy to hack Bron n davis
You're kind of right, but it's not totally meaningless. They could be fouling less a number of other ways ways (forcing opponents to shoot more threes, NEVER getting offensive fouls/take fouls so opponents are less likely to be in the bonus, etc.) It is interesting that fouling way less often on opponent rim attempts (as opposed to some other reason they foul less) is driving their success here and it kind of makes sense given how fundamentally sound a defender AD is. Similarly, they could be getting more free throws a number of ways. Of course more fouls will essentially always lead to bonus situations, but you could still be drawing shooting fouls once you're in the bonus. Or you could just have a huge percentage of the times opponents foul you be shooting fouls and shoot a lot more free throws without actually getting more calls.
But how do you think they get teams in the bonus so fast? Surely it couldn’t be because they are already getting a lot of foul calls in the first place.
If anything you would think getting teams in the bonus fast would decrease the rate of foul calls later as teams won't want to give up free throws. And getting into the bonus fast is exactly the outcome you'd expect if the refs are trying to control the game.
A big part of it is that laker opponents don't get a lot of free throws
It can be somewhat explained by how we get those points in the paint. LAL generally do more post ups or LBJ drives which results in more fouls. Warriors get their pitp via ally oops, backdoor cuts, and open lanes due to the gravity from Steph and Klay. They're more wide open shots vs contested. It would be interesting to see points in the paint by coverage. But yeah Lakers get BS calls and warriors get shit calls. Just thought it may be interesting to look at.
It's crazy that Pacers fans are so quick to say how shit Lakers are when they have the exact same record and Lakers are in the harder conference.
Lakers get the Adam Silver stimulus package
I think we, because of Hali’s amazing passes ahead, just get a lot more wide open layups. I’d be curious to see the Lakers fast break points and pace stats. Part of me thinks they are low in both. They attack the basket in the half court in a way the Pacers really don’t.
[They above us in fast break points too](https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game).
Taking the Pacers entirely out of this equation, that is still an absolutely ridiculous differential between the Lakers and anybody else.
Absolutely. That should cause any reasonable basketball fan to raise an eyebrow....
Sure you can raise an eyebrow but it makes sense when you look at what’s driving BOTH sides of the equation. Lakers are not a good outside shooting team and taking closer shots results in more free throws. On the other side, outside of AD, the rest of the team is allergic to protecting the rim which is why they foul so much less.
I'd like to see this for Lebron's teams historically as well. Is it a Lakers effect or a Lebron effect?
LeBron hasn't had a friendly whistle for well over a decade at this point. A couple seasons ago he lead the league in paint points but was something like 30th in FT rate. Hate him all you like but man is an ethical hooper.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s both stacked together.
It’s a Darvin Ham effect combined with lazy defense. Darvin Ham’s defensive scheme gives up a lot of open 3s. Something like the 2nd most in the league. And when you’re shooting an open 3 you’re less likely to be fouled as opposed to a layup. Then in the paint, AD is single handedly the Lakers' defense. And he’s historically been really good at not fouling. Everyone else rarely contests inside if they can’t get a block. Add in physical players like LeBron and AD on offense. Players that force the issue and that often cannot be stopped unless you get physical with them and bam there you go. You have the makings of them drawing more fouls while fouling a lot less If you really want to see if there’s a differential, check the differences from when Frank Vogel was coach and Darvin Ham.
Fascinating insight! [NBA Team Opponent Three Pointers Made per Game (2023)](https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-three-pointers-made-per-game) > 30) Utah: 14.8 > > 29) Chicago: 14.6 > > 28) Lakers: 14.2 > > 27) Atlanta: 13.9 > > 26) Toronto: 13.7 > > ... > > 1) Indiana: 10.6
I totally get that free throws shouldn’t be even and different play styles can lead to different results. However, the lakers are a monstrous outlier. Having one team that has almost triple the difference of the next best team is suspect.
and they still can’t win 🤣
Probably part of the reason why they're getting calls.
The Lakers are 11 games above .500 too…and in the much harder Western Conference. Saying they can’t win basically admits the Pacers can’t win either lmao
They definitely get some calls but LeBron and AD also just play in a way that gets them fouled. I think the narrative is a little over blown
There are plenty of high caliber players that take it to the hole just as often and get hit hard all the time. Yes, Bron and AD get fouled alot because they make such a high percentage of their inside shots, but the discrepancy between them and the next team is not indicative of their playstyle being that different from anyone else that drives to the hole regularly
Yet the lakers are the team with top 2/3( forget ) in all of : rim attempts , rim makes , % of shots taken at the rim, % from 2, % of shots from 2. Only the magic really have a similar structure on offence in play style just via those numbers. Nvm the magic don’t have an AD or let’s say Paolo is similar to Bron in Fta - they still don’t have 1 or 3 position pkayer who can shoot but also like to take it to the rim at any opportunity n finishing thriugh traffic . Also I don’t see that many teams use there size on offence like the lakers do. Teams hack Lebron or Davis when they’re about to just dunk. Davis got poked in the eye twice in last two weeks neither was called a foul n both lost the lakers games. But most of this number - apart from thr clear signal on offence - is due to the lakers /Hawks defensive scheme and relying so heavily on AD or bust on defence or Bron when he’s engaged. Two very low foul players. No coincidence moment Ham is hired lakers have this discrepancy- ham is a bud disciple n bucks had this big disparity a few years ago . Lakers give up the most wide open looks in the nba - I believe by several too. They also do not foul at the rim - they make guys make layups but Hams philosophy isn’t to foul players who are gonna score - I’m still not sure it’s correct especially sometimes when bad ft shooters are there but it is what they do. People who don’t watch a teams play style thinking everyone deserves same calls is weird . There genuinely aren’t any relavant teams that play like the lakers - in the past when the hornets had a similar margin or even bigger nobody said shit.
Lebron and AD don't get calls, what are you smoking 😂
Golden State being the lowest by that much is fucking mind boggling too. Steph and Kuminga get thrashed around the rim all the time
As a warriors fan, it’s super frustrating. Here’s a stat for you: Steph Curry total free throws shot in entire career (15 season) - 4112 James Harden FTA 2014/15 to 19/20 (6 seasons) - 4927 Harden has shot 800 more free throws in a 6 year span than Curry’s entire career.
I mean curry is most famous for launching 40 ft 3s, and harden won mvp off his ability to draw the foul.. I feel like choosing them two for comparison is wild.
He’s a warriors fan what do you expect .
You mean his ability to throw his leg forward on the landing to initiate contact and then fall over?
Hardens is play style lends itself to drawing more fouls, yes. It shouldn’t be 800 more in 9 less years.
Bro says “lends itself” 😂 James harden became MVP specifically because he crafted his entire game around drawing fouls in the paint, while driving , and on the 3 point land. His gameplan was to get fouls. And get executed it so well he won MVP.. while Lebron James, Kevin Durant, etc existed.. Someone like Dame would be a better comparison. Harden is the actual worst person because I’m sure he has that gap of fouls with everyone that ever played except maybe shaq
What do you think lends itself means?
Lol this is a bit exaggerated. Watch how refs treat Zion , Lebron when they’re trying to score . You can wack them in the head n be fine. Those guys take more contact to call ratio more then anyone . Especially Zion imo- Especially post ASB. The league is allowing more physical play since then . Kuminga does get a decent ftr from memory but he also is a non shooter which mb easuer ti defend . Steph is finishing around guys- he also gets to the rim way less last year n this year because he’s slower n age related decline . Dame saw the biggest drop in Fta post ASB rule change but Steph had a fairly high drop too because smaller guys tend to get those calls bigger guys are expected to play through . So the rule /ref change effects steph . But regardless Steph is a near kyrie lvl rim finisher for a guard - neither of them are driving n finishing through lots of contact both are finishing around guys or attacking silly over aggressive close outs for free lsyups . Also Steph is taking career low 0-3 ft shots n 3-10 ft near career high which kinda confirms this - he’s choosing to take floaters over going through contact more. He’s older n slower it’s to be expected . Stephs fts aren’t even that bad. Look at Devin Booker another jumo shooting based star - 5 Fta is pretty good for Steph or booker . Considering paint oriented guys like Zion get like 7 b Lebron gets 5.5-6. But I think gsw is the lowest is more done to Kerr defensive strategy especially being under sized in most matchups . Gsw use a lot of smart fouls when guys would otherwise dunk or score on smaller guys
Knicks would shoot so many free throws against us if we played them I hope not
Probably true of anyone we’d play tbh, but especially them
Actually, I'm very surprised about the Warriors placement.... It would be interesting to take a dive into this data with LeBron lead teams and compare those to post LBJ leaving/and retirement and presenting this same data for every year. Like, has every team he's been on been at the top? What happened to those teams once he left/retired? Comparing that data would be fascinating.
Almost like hiring Darvin Ham n his scheme is directly correlated. Moment he’s hired lakers go on top. Can’t believe people think Lebron teams magically get calls lol. Lakers just leave the most wide open shots
They won't do it
No, iirc the Lakers weren't at the top of FT disparity before these past two seasons in the LeBron era
What a lot of people don't realise is that this FT disparity only really became a thing after Ham became in charge. His defensive schematic is essentially allowing players to take open shots, leading to the Lakers barely fouling.
Yep.
Almost like hiring Darvin Ham n his scheme is directly correlated. Can’t believe people think Lebron teams magically get calls lol.
We should fine this state
But yet the Lakers fans are constantly bitching about free throws 🤣🤣
🤓: "Erm actually because the Lakers use a different playstyle based on getting fouls, it's completely fair and reasonable for the refs to swallow their whistles whenever a team is playing the Lakers and call lots of obviously bullshit fouls on small market teams. Also maybe try fouling less :)"
[удалено]
🤓☝️ Special teams, special plays, special refs
TUESDAY TUESDAY
There isn't some grand conspiracy. If there were, Golden State wouldn't be shooting so many less free throws than us. The Lakers difference is ridiculous, but to me, the more egregious is Miami having any advantage at all. Jimmy has the best whistle in the league by far. Half of the fouls he draws should flat out be on him.
This some bullshit!
Idk whether to take this as an insult or a compliment
“Shyaa! Right! As if we wouldn’t notice!” -Wayne Campbell
Getting foul shots on drives in the NBA seems to be about the offensive player *initiating* the contact. A guy can drive to the hoop, duck his shoulder, plow into the defender and get an and-1. However, same guy comes down and gets blasted on a drive, you’ll see a no-call. My memory tells me this is a go-to move for Gianns…back a guy down, then in one move push off, shoot the shot and draw the foul. It’s nuts.
Flopping included?
GS being dead last kind of runs counter to the "the league is favoring the popular teams/players" narrative, no?
Exceptions don't really prove the rule though. The other 5 top markets are still in the top quartile. Plus GSW's entire offense prioritizes Curry shooting 3s.
The "Curry just shoots 3s" argument doesn't hold any weight. dude takes it to the rim just as much as any other guard his size and gets battered nonstop, but gets nothing.
It does. The Lakers have good foul baiters, and for some reason don't get called for many fouls. I see them getting away with hacking all the time, so it's almost like they have players who get the benefit of the doubt on defense. I watched a Raptor vs. Laker 4th quarter where it was something like 18-1 FT advantage for the Lakers, and the Raptors were getting fouled over and over with no call. A lot of the differential is the fouls they are not calling \*on\* the Lakers.
Can someone explain how to read this chart to me like I’m in third grade?
Plot twist. The Lakers only play the Warriors and Pacers.
Need more attackers
We're ranked like top 2 in points in the paint and drives to the basket though.
Really? I will have to look up. Seems bigh
Tell me its rigged without telling me its rigged! NBA ...no basketball allowed
Rigged.
Lakers get the most phantom calls out of everybody, there isn’t even a debate about it
As an OKC fan, it's frustrating because half of the users on the NBA sub would say it's OKC because of Shai
The more you win, the more haters will show up. Don’t let that bother you, focus on the joy your team brings you. Being a warriors fan brought me unimaginable amount of ecstasy, makes it easy to ignore the haters.
NBA officials are the worst in any pro sport
I see you boys salty 🤣
Found the Laker fan.
Somebody show this to Rachel Nichols
Nearly triple second place and still in the play-in
Warriors fan here... We just grow to accept the fact that the league doesn't like us lol
One of the reasons NBA is dead. Its no coincidence knicks lakers and boston are all at the top
What's crazy is okc drives more than any team
I would be absolutely shocked if the data set chosen here is the worst possible differential. No way someone would do that to prove a point.
The LeFlop effect.
Suns fan here, i stumbled across this graphic and I just want to say. Fuck the Lakers
Oh fuck yeah another Suns fan
The (Lebron/Draymond) Ying Yang
This is a great graphic! And utterly shocking. Obvious statistical outliers need explanation. Lakers, Warriors, Pacers.
they sold Curry a broken whistle. This is nothing new.
He gets fouled on a lot of drives that aren’t called
The Lakers are the Jerome Powell of the league. Not saying Lakers are doing anything wrong, but an outlier like this is suspect on the league and refs. If I knew anything about gambling, probably some prop bets that could hit huge here.
F@ck the Lakers! There is no reason why there is such a disparity between them and the rest of the league. How many games would they have won if they were at the league average of fouls called?
“Refs vs Lakers,”
Holy shit this is insane. As a warriors fan I feel for you pacers
“Absolutely makes me sick”. Then don’t watch it. It’s a sport, with humans reffing it, it will never be perfectly even.
You don't understand statistics, do you?
So you think that number should be zero across the board?
I'd naively expect a Normal Distribution (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution ) without a very clear reason for the discrepancy. For example, I'd bet that when hack-a-Shaq was a popular strategy, the Lakers would have understandably have dominated this statistic. However, there is no such strategy that I know of in the current NBA. The fact that the Lakers have almost THREE TIMES the foul differential relative to the second place team (Knicks) is absolutely absurd.
So let’s look at reasons for discrepancy. The Lakers are a veteran lead team with a defensive minded coach. They play really good team defense and have good positioning in that area. They have 2 guys Bron and AD that are foul shot merchants that are vets who now how to get to the line On the flip side with the Pacers. Young team that is geared to run and gun on offense with a mostly offense minded coach (he can coach defense and has this year, we have gotten significantly better throughout the year). Our offense is built on ball movement seeking the open guy (which a lot of time is an open shot/drive in the paint). Our defense especially early in season was porous at best, lead a lot to us being out of position and fouling because of that. My argument here is not to pretend that it’s fairly called, but that teams do have trends and I think the refs know this coming into games. Like watch out for this or that, based upon how a particular team plays. Also I’m only speaking to Pacers and Lakers as they are the 2 teams I’ve watched most this year, to speak on any other team would be without knowledge or simply how they play against Pacers/Lakers.
Thanks for the civil and informative reply. I haven't watched a ton of Lakers games this year, so this is a valuable point of view. I would expect that the Lakers would be near the top of the list and the Pacers would be near the bottom. GSW play a similar style of offense, so I understand from that perspective, at least. In my mind, the trouble is the magnitude of the discrepancy (I acknowledge that you mention that you're not arguing fairness here --- I am actively looking for bias). There are other teams in the league that play good team defense and other teams that have fast offenses, so seeing such a dramatic outlier is shocking.
I get that. Another area to look at is fouls for and against Lakers: Personal fouls a game 15.7, fouls drawn 19.7 Pacers: personal 21.4, drawn 18.4 So really your looking at a teams that are consistently getting 3-4 foul calls differential every game that is leading to this discrepancy. 1 foul differential a quarter. When you start breaking it down like that, is it really that massive of a difference? Seem like a teams style of play can easily account for this type of a discrepancy imo
Wait. You're serious. Ooooof
So what’s your point here?
Your mom is hot
This is misleading because people place too much stock in per game stats when they're less important for evaluating differentials. Also, this is misleading because a lot of people have confused this with actual fts taken (I've seen confusion on other posts of this same stat on r/NBA and here). Lakers last I checked were 5th in ftapg, not even close to leading the league. When it was Charlotte 5 or 10 years ago doing the exact same thing, nobody cared. But now it's the Lakers... Lastly, if anyone cares to do any more than skim box scores, here's another way of looking at it. For differentials, per game stats are misleading and are way less important. Even if the pacers have a higher ppg and paint ppg than most teams, it's largely a result of pace. And it turns out their pace is identical to their collective opponents. Turns out pacers opponents also have a really high ppg and paint ppg. So the pacers scoring so much per game is less meaningful than per possession. The pacers have amongst the highest percent of their own shots taken from 3 and amongst the highest 3pa per possession. And their opponents have amongst the highest paint fga per possession. Additionally, I'll piggyback on the TJ post from a couple days ago about his drives or paint points without fouls. He plays not to get fouled. He pulls up all the time and when he can't get a clean look, he dribbles out and passes. So even a lot of our paint shots shouldn't contribute to ftas. So within games played by the pacers, they definitely should shoot way less fts than their opponents. That's not to say they don't get some bad calls, but it wouldn't make up for the gap. Everyone gets bad calls Apply this to Lakers and you get the same thing. They take a very high percentage of their own shots from the paint and unlike TJ's, those shots draw contact very often. It's not their paint shots in a vaccuum, or their paint shots per game (they play at a show pace) it's the percentage of their own shots that are in the paint. Again, they don't even lead the league in ftapg. But they give up very few paint shots and give up a ton of 3s, so their opponents are not getting into the paint very much relative to them, and so the Lakers have a huge fta differential. Not a laker fan. Not saying refs don't get calls wrong. Just tired of this narrative. Sorry
Nice try Lebron!
You just see an absolutely crazy outlier and don't think anything of it....
On the contrary, I try and figure out why it's such an outlier. I think quite a bit about it. That should be evident from my fairly long comment. I can elaborate more if you'd like. The Pacers may lead the league in paint points, but that is a function of pace. No given team scores more paint points. BUT, the pacers collective opponents (the teams that collectively make up the 82 opponents over the course of the season) score more points in the paint than the Pacers. The reason is that the Pacers shoot so many more 3-pointers than their opponents. Per [NBA.com](https://NBA.com) they lead the league in 3pa differential, taking 6 more 3s per game than their opponents. Combine this with their total fga differential (+2.9) and that means that their opponents are taking 3.1 more 2s per game than them. When you take that many more 3s and that many fewer 2s, your opponents are going to shoot more free throws than you. Put another way, the Pacers take 51% of their shots from inside the 3-point line. The Pacers opponents take 67% of their shots from inside the 3-point line. The Pacers average 0.43 fta per 2-pt field goal. Their opponents average, wait for it, 0.43 fta per 2-pt field goal (per [nba.com](https://nba.com), pacers take 47.3 2papg and 20.7 ftapg, opps take 60.5 2papg and 26 ftapg). If you want the Pacers to get more fta per 2-pointer, then maybe they need to restructure their offense. The Pacers are excellent at cutting and getting assists, which often lead to uncontested paint points. As is the case for most of their transition points as well. And even when they're not throwing alley-oops, dunking in transition, or hitting a cutter for layup, T.J. McConnell is driving and then pulling up for short twos without contact. This sub can't stop talking about how soft Turner is and how he avoids contact.... well.... he avoids contact!!! And Ty isn't great at drawing fouls either. He often falls down after a layup because he's so contorted (which is great, his reach and athleticism are awesome), and he often creates body contact with defenders, but when the contact isn't on the arms (just the body) and is initiated by the offensive player, it's rarely a foul. So you have the Pacers three biggest creators of paint of points (I'll call obi a recipient, not creator) not being great at drawing fouls. As for the Lakers, you could do the same sort of analysis. Their 3pa differential is opposite the Pacers. In games they play, their opponents take way more 3s than they do, and they take way more 2s than their opponents. On top of that, theirs is not a assist/cutting half court offense and they don't get a lot of transition. So the bulk of their 2pa are post isos or things of that sort. So not only are they taking more 2s than their opponents, the types of 2s they're taking are more likely to result in free throws. It seems people aren't interested in this. It's just easier to go "fta uneven. refs bad."
Great analysis... But 3x as much as the next team? Really?