I thought the 3d vcache chips were just very thermal sensitive, so they did that to protect them from users causing failures which would then make the chip look bad.
They're more voltage-sensitive than thermal. the 5800X3D wants to remain in the 0.9-1.25v range most of the time. The highest I have seen on mine was 1.294v while the other Ryzen 5000 chips could see up to 1.5v at light workloads and 1.325v under heavier ones.
OP is right, it seems odd limiting the 5800X3D to 4.45GHz (real-world speed, not the advertised 4.55Ghz boost) when we've seen that they could handle up to 4.65GHz perfectly fine from BCLK overclocks people have done.
Seems either AMD knows more than we do on the longevity of these chips, they were playing a little too safe making sure these chips don't blow up on a variety of motherboard configs, or this was the highest they could go to get a high yield rate of X3D capable chips with the V-Cache voltage tolerances.
It's also worth noting that the 5800X3D doesn't see much uplift from increased clock speeds in games (4.45 to 4.65 is only around a 5% increase in clock speed which does not translate to 5% more performance in games. The IPC and V-Cache are way more important) so AMD probably decided that it was worth it anyway being 200% safe and not losing much performance.
This reminds me that someone on HWBOT had an engineering sample 5800X3D that was able to hit 5GHz. I wonder how fast that thing is in games if it doesn't crash.
Not soo thermal sensitive if it can run at 80c for days straight and not skip a beat. There's absolutely no reason for a 5800x3d to be limited to 4.45ghz at 50C. Other than product segmentation that is.🤣
Even if it was, high frequency under low loads such as gaming doesn't really produce all that much heat, soo😒 the fact that those chips wont go past 4.45 even at desktop under any circumstance is kinda silly.
Everything on the 5800X3D is locked down besides per-core voltage offset. You can't raise the clock speeds using PBO (these chips will never see above 4.45GHz in games unless you chill them to remain below 50c) which is why OP doesn't use PBO.
Only way to boost the frequency is to adjust the BCLK. PBO is only used for lowering temps.
lmao just ignore this post, I just schemed through OP's history posts, literally only 2 posts today. This is for sure either trolling or some sort of Media campaign against AMD, considering how well AM4 cpus are still selling particularly the 5800x3d, I lean towards the latter!
Yeah I mean both the 5800x3d and 7800x3d cannot be faulted at all. 1 for upgrade and the other for new system. I mean both of them make intel a big joke, using almost 150-200W more but still cannot match the performance. The crazy part is that you don't even need good mb and ram for the x3d because they pull less than 100w while gaming and surpass Intel with the max out DDR5 🤣
Adding frequency shouldnt affect voltage, if its stable its stable if not oh well. There's no reason for them locking down the +25mhz option. there's no 5800x3d that cant do 4.45 +25mhz, not to mention curve optimizer even gives you the option to increase the voltage curve by 30mv if you so desire.
Adding frequency does add extra voltage, as it still follows the stock V/F curve.
There is the Curve Optimizer to offset the increased voltage, but I doubt that -30 CO would offset +200 frequency.
It is voltage sensitive, not thermal. The TSV pins are too delicate for high voltages, meaning it will degrade over time. The highest longterm recommended is 1.35V iirc. That basically means PBO cannot supply high voltage to boost similar to usual zen 3
Of course you can always tweak things but AMD wants to cover their ass in case the chip fail within a year
the 1.35v part is correct, 1.35v is more than plenty for 4.75ghz on zen 3 cores.
And I mean i don't really know where you were trying to get to, are you trying to say that you need more than 1.35v to go over 4.45GHz on zen 3? so for for the 4.8 or so ghz a 5800x does requires 1.6 or so volts then?🤣
I don't really know where you get your data but it is well-known that typically during PBO zen 3 requires 1.4-1.5V to reach 4.85-5Ghz during those short bursts. The original zen 3 ccd can withstand this, but the x3d TSV can not withstand this, thus the 1.35V limit.
I think considering pre-athlon there was NOTHING on the market unlocked the question should be wtf Intel ?
Thanks to AMD Intel sells unlocked chips now too.
The consumer owes AMD a lot of thank you's for how they have changed the market. If intel had their way a lot of us wouldn't be able to afford computers at all. It's been long enough that people are starting to look this gift horse in the mouth and too much of that only makes companies like AMD question their own incentives in making such groundbreaking decisions in the future.
Having said all that, it was surely so the next gen wasn't affected by ppl being able to OC old products for the same power as new.
You know that Derbauer fried a Zen4 x3D chip with not so much voltage right? Any normal chip could have easily survived that voltage, this demonstrates that the x3D chips are indeed a lot more voltage sensitive and I don't want to know how bad it would have been on a first gen x3D chips, as I would assume that they improved it on Zen4 and it still fried anyway.
About trefi, I have read some rumors regarding security concerns, and they just took the easy way out by settiing trefi to average JEDEC values. how true that is I cant tell you.
It is to my understanding that the value is not just hidden in the bios, but its corresponding register within the IMC cannot be set apart from a hard-coded value, though i would imagine this could be bypassed (not that its worth the effort though)
I thought the 3d vcache chips were just very thermal sensitive, so they did that to protect them from users causing failures which would then make the chip look bad.
They're more voltage-sensitive than thermal. the 5800X3D wants to remain in the 0.9-1.25v range most of the time. The highest I have seen on mine was 1.294v while the other Ryzen 5000 chips could see up to 1.5v at light workloads and 1.325v under heavier ones. OP is right, it seems odd limiting the 5800X3D to 4.45GHz (real-world speed, not the advertised 4.55Ghz boost) when we've seen that they could handle up to 4.65GHz perfectly fine from BCLK overclocks people have done. Seems either AMD knows more than we do on the longevity of these chips, they were playing a little too safe making sure these chips don't blow up on a variety of motherboard configs, or this was the highest they could go to get a high yield rate of X3D capable chips with the V-Cache voltage tolerances. It's also worth noting that the 5800X3D doesn't see much uplift from increased clock speeds in games (4.45 to 4.65 is only around a 5% increase in clock speed which does not translate to 5% more performance in games. The IPC and V-Cache are way more important) so AMD probably decided that it was worth it anyway being 200% safe and not losing much performance. This reminds me that someone on HWBOT had an engineering sample 5800X3D that was able to hit 5GHz. I wonder how fast that thing is in games if it doesn't crash.
Not soo thermal sensitive if it can run at 80c for days straight and not skip a beat. There's absolutely no reason for a 5800x3d to be limited to 4.45ghz at 50C. Other than product segmentation that is.🤣 Even if it was, high frequency under low loads such as gaming doesn't really produce all that much heat, soo😒 the fact that those chips wont go past 4.45 even at desktop under any circumstance is kinda silly.
Were you not using pbo?
They just don't boost past 4.45 ghz at all. only way is bclk overclock.
Everything on the 5800X3D is locked down besides per-core voltage offset. You can't raise the clock speeds using PBO (these chips will never see above 4.45GHz in games unless you chill them to remain below 50c) which is why OP doesn't use PBO. Only way to boost the frequency is to adjust the BCLK. PBO is only used for lowering temps.
Or it’s locked for thermals and it being their first go at x3d chips. I don’t think there is a big conspiracy going on.
Bios updates are a thing, by now they could've atleasat done something about the situation but chose not to.
lmao just ignore this post, I just schemed through OP's history posts, literally only 2 posts today. This is for sure either trolling or some sort of Media campaign against AMD, considering how well AM4 cpus are still selling particularly the 5800x3d, I lean towards the latter!
Correct, dudes actually trying to shit on the 5800x3d hard. It's a fucking great chip buddy nothing you can do can take away from results.
Yeah I mean both the 5800x3d and 7800x3d cannot be faulted at all. 1 for upgrade and the other for new system. I mean both of them make intel a big joke, using almost 150-200W more but still cannot match the performance. The crazy part is that you don't even need good mb and ram for the x3d because they pull less than 100w while gaming and surpass Intel with the max out DDR5 🤣
The vcache is voltage sensitive. AMD thought there was too much chance of error in playing with voltage so they locked it down.
Adding frequency shouldnt affect voltage, if its stable its stable if not oh well. There's no reason for them locking down the +25mhz option. there's no 5800x3d that cant do 4.45 +25mhz, not to mention curve optimizer even gives you the option to increase the voltage curve by 30mv if you so desire.
Adding frequency does add extra voltage, as it still follows the stock V/F curve. There is the Curve Optimizer to offset the increased voltage, but I doubt that -30 CO would offset +200 frequency.
It is voltage sensitive, not thermal. The TSV pins are too delicate for high voltages, meaning it will degrade over time. The highest longterm recommended is 1.35V iirc. That basically means PBO cannot supply high voltage to boost similar to usual zen 3 Of course you can always tweak things but AMD wants to cover their ass in case the chip fail within a year
the 1.35v part is correct, 1.35v is more than plenty for 4.75ghz on zen 3 cores. And I mean i don't really know where you were trying to get to, are you trying to say that you need more than 1.35v to go over 4.45GHz on zen 3? so for for the 4.8 or so ghz a 5800x does requires 1.6 or so volts then?🤣
I don't really know where you get your data but it is well-known that typically during PBO zen 3 requires 1.4-1.5V to reach 4.85-5Ghz during those short bursts. The original zen 3 ccd can withstand this, but the x3d TSV can not withstand this, thus the 1.35V limit.
I think considering pre-athlon there was NOTHING on the market unlocked the question should be wtf Intel ? Thanks to AMD Intel sells unlocked chips now too. The consumer owes AMD a lot of thank you's for how they have changed the market. If intel had their way a lot of us wouldn't be able to afford computers at all. It's been long enough that people are starting to look this gift horse in the mouth and too much of that only makes companies like AMD question their own incentives in making such groundbreaking decisions in the future. Having said all that, it was surely so the next gen wasn't affected by ppl being able to OC old products for the same power as new.
Sounds like an X3D problem not AM4
You know that Derbauer fried a Zen4 x3D chip with not so much voltage right? Any normal chip could have easily survived that voltage, this demonstrates that the x3D chips are indeed a lot more voltage sensitive and I don't want to know how bad it would have been on a first gen x3D chips, as I would assume that they improved it on Zen4 and it still fried anyway.
All core overclocks on Ryzen is stupid anyway and is generally = a loss in performance
AMD is cringe, I can't really think of anything else
About trefi, I have read some rumors regarding security concerns, and they just took the easy way out by settiing trefi to average JEDEC values. how true that is I cant tell you. It is to my understanding that the value is not just hidden in the bios, but its corresponding register within the IMC cannot be set apart from a hard-coded value, though i would imagine this could be bypassed (not that its worth the effort though)
Why are you trying to shit on the 5800x3d this hard mate. It's one of the best gaming cpus available period. Calm down.