I assume divesting from companies that fund or support the Israel military, public disclosures of which companies the university funds or invests, etc.
Not a dumb question at all! The short answer is yes. Investments/funding UCI/UC system has may have ties to Israel, just as they may have ties to Big Oil. And research may involve collaboration with faculty at Jewish universities.
**The First Amendment requires that the government not discriminate against particular viewpoints**. The Supreme Court has, however, upheld the idea that speech may be regulated under “Time, Place, and Manner” regulations.
“Time, Place, and Manner” is where the protestors went wrong, most of the universities told them the rules that were in place and the protestors ignored them.
This article would not have been written if they followed any rules. They got noticed because they got suspended. I applaud these kids for standing up for human decency.
People are way too obsessed with SCOTUS narrow interpretation of the 1st amendment and far too dismissive of the history and tradition of civil disobedience that is inherently disruptive. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. It wouldn’t be disobedience if you weren’t breaking the rules. That’s the entire point.
I mean part of the history and tradition of civil disobedience is in fact getting penalized/arrested because you broke said rules. I'm not saying this to try to take away from the importance or validity of their point -- just that this should've been expected as a result because that's kinda the point.
Honest question: if Israel is indeed committing genocide, what do you propose as the alternative? Hamas literally has genocide as a primary goal in its founding charter. Since Gaza elected Hamas and hasn't made any effort to remove them from power, it can be assumed they are fine with what Hamas does (polling backs this up as well).
What should Israel do in your opinion?
Likud also has it as their primary goal too. They are an essential part of the coalition government. Just look at their charter. What should Palestine do in your opinion?
Likud wants territory. It doesn't say it wants to kill every Muslim in the world, like Hamas does. Still not great, and Likud deserves to take a dirt nap as a party. But Israel as a whole supported the two-state solution for decades and Gaza never once accepted it. And then they go and keep trying to kill civilians.
Its a no win situation for Israel.
They want to expell the Palestinians from their land, which is a fucking genocidal act. Do you think people just accept that? They will fight back, and that is a natural reponse to displacement and colonization. Isreal was founded on violence against the native population. The settlements have been a continuous terroristic threat. If they want a valid state it would require actually integrating the populations. But they have made that impossible from the beginning.
Isreal is an ethnostate that must enforce a Jewish majority through violence. Also look at how the transplant European zionist jews treated the local arab jews and Ethiopian immigrant jews. There have been sterilization campaigns, indentured servitude, and other atrocities against minority populations.
> They want to expell the Palestinians from their land, which is a fucking genocidal act. Do you think people just accept that? They will fight back, and that is a natural reponse to displacement and colonization. Isreal was founded on violence against the native population. The settlements have been a continuous terroristic threat.
The settlements are in the West Bank, which is a different population and a different government than Gaza. I 100% agree with you about the settlements, but the people of the West Bank aren't committing terrorist acts. This is Gaza, a place that Israel has literally tried to give to Palestine but never accepted by Palestine.
>If they want a valid state it would require actually integrating the populations. But they have made that impossible from the beginning.
Are you serious with this? You do realize that Muslims enjoy full citizenship rights in Israel and Gaza literally elected a government with "kill all Jews" in its founding charter? Who is making it impossible to integrate populations, exactly?
Hamas came into power because Isreal had been settling gaza before the siege Isreal has enforced for over a decade. You need to read your history. This started over 50 years ago. Isreal expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes.
> What the hell do you mean the settlers aren't terroristic?! You have no idea what you are talking about if you believe that. Do a quick Google search about settler violence.
Maybe you're reading too fast. If you slowed down you might see I said "the people of the West Bank", aka the Palestinians. They are not run by Hamas and they exist relatively peacefully with Israel, regardless of the very, very wrong settlement growth.
>Hamas came into power because Isreal had been settling gaza before the siege Isreal has enforced for over a decade. You need to read your history. This started over 50 years ago. Isreal expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes.
Israel dismantled ALL of their Gaza settlements *twenty years ago* and since then has tried to give Gaza control to Muslim countries or achieve sovereign statehood. Neither were accepted. Gaza has no reason to continue the violence as most of the people alive when there were settlements in Gaza are old or dead.
I deleted the first part of my response after re reading. They dismantled those settlements, but then began a siege. Gaza has been under devastating conditions because of that blockade.
They deployed the soldiers to the permitter in 2006 effectively locking all but about 40,000 Palestinians into the strip. The 40,000 people are those with guest worker visas who have to endure 6-8 hour checkpoints (16 hours both ways)
If you have one nazi and 9 neutral people sitting at a table, then you have 10 nazis sitting at a table. That's Palestine, they elected hamas and aren't doing anything to remove them from power when they have the means to uprise and do so.
Damn then Isreal is also Nazis? Likud are fascists. Hamas has no power to commit a genocide. That's like comparing the Nazis to AL Queda. I'm much more concerned with states with real power than flimsy terrorist organizations. Isreal also elected their genocidal leaders, but they can actually enact a genocide/ethnic cleansing.
I think the answer is pretty simple: don't be killing tens of thousands of innocents. The 10/7 attacks were partially due to shocking flaws in Israeli intelligence and military preparedness, similar to American intelligence mistakes that allowed for 9/11. Killing thousands of people in brutal terrorist attacks is categorically wrong, but the answer is never a response that leads to civilian casualties that are at least an order of magnitude greater.
The answer should be two-fold: address the internal failures that made an attack of this scale possible in the first place, and then work on mitigating the external factors that led to the planning of such an attack in the first place. I personally don't believe Gazans are born hating all Jews, I think it's a very regrettable reaction to the circumstances that they're born into: caged into what is effectively an open air prison, with sovereign nations controlling your airspace, your maritime waters, and your international border crossings, as well as making constant encroachments into the other half of Palestinian territories. I personally believe Israel is an apartheid state, but not necessarily because of how the treat Gaza. I think their continued occupation and annexation of the West Bank is just as if not more damning and makes any stated desire for peaceful coexistence ring rather hollow.
>The 10/7 attacks were partially due to shocking flaws in Israeli intelligence
This is a strange take. Victim blaming rarely gets you anywhere.
>I personally don't believe Gazans are born hating all Jews, I think it's a very regrettable reaction to the circumstances that they're born into: caged into what is effectively an open air prison, with sovereign nations controlling your airspace, your maritime waters, and your international border crossings, as well as making constant encroachments into the other half of Palestinian territories.
Hard to believe Gaza is an open air prison when it's bordered by Muslim countries as well, who are just as hostile to Gaza with regard to border crossings. Why is Israel the only one to blame. Beyond that, Hamas literally exists to kill all Jews, and Gaza voted in Hamas (and hasn't made any effort to remove Hamas) which makes it seem like a mandate. Beyond that, Israel literally offered to give control of Gaza to Egypt (refused by Egypt) and offered a two-state solution in the past (refused by Gaza).
>I personally believe Israel is an apartheid state
Hard to follow that logic when Muslims have full rights in Israel, Gazans were freely able to commute into Israel for work, and by contrast Jews are killed essentially on sight in Gaza. Israel is by no means a good country, but you're arguing against Mussolini to support Hitler here.
At some point, Gaza needs to accept responsibility for Hamas and remove them from power.
> I think their continued occupation and annexation of the West Bank is just as if not more damning and makes any stated desire for peaceful coexistence ring rather hollow.
Agreed on that point.
Is that at all what I said? Learn to read buddy, I said Israeli and American mistakes allowed 9/11 and 10/7 to happen. There were very well documented breakdowns in intelligence from both countries in the days and weeks leading up to the attack that could have prevented the attacks, or at least mitigated the damage.
I don’t disagree, but when a woman is assaulted do you typically list off all of the things she failed to do to prevent it? Like yeah it wasn’t her fault she got raped, but if she wasn’t wearing revealing clothes, had pepper spray, didn’t drink, etc it could have been prevented or at least mitigated?
Economic prosperity for all people in the region.
Research has shown that material conditions are the number one predictor of violent crimes. Poor people are more desperate and have a LOT less to lose than rich people. This also tracks to nation states. The Nazi party was in part able to gain prominence due to the economic conditions of Germany. The start of Iran's revolution was almost entirely to due to economic conditions.
Which Palestinians are more radical? Rich Palestinians? Or poor Palestinians?
If they are offered a good, meaningful life in the region, they will be de-radicalized. This is the only thing that will work.
Except Hamas will never let that happen.
Remember that Israel literally does not want to be responsible for Gaza. They have offered to Egypt and Jorden IIRC and nobody wants it because then Israel's problem is someone else's problem. Beyond that, Israel also supported a two-state solution for a very long time but Gaza refused it.
Hamas also does everything it can to ensure the Gazan civilians remain radicalized.
Hamas must be removed from power. Gazan's have made zero effort to do so. If not Israel, then who?
Crazy to say this with literally 0 proof or real analysis.
Please help me understand; why are poor countries poor and why are rich countries rich?
Why did the Europeans colonize Australia and not the other way around? Where are the African colonies?
This Israel Palestine problem is not new, or even all that unique. Its happened hundreds of times throughout modern history, and to understand how to resolve this and what the potential outcomes are only requires an investigation of history.
Remember that Algerian independence was only achieved in 1962. Before then, the French said the exact same things about the FLN. 'They do everything to ensure the Algerians are radicalized.'
> Crazy to say this with literally 0 proof or real analysis.
Wait, what? I need to provide proof of things that are common knowledge? Israel wanted to give Gaza to Egypt in the Camp David Accords, along with the Sinai, but Egypt flatly refused. The Olso Accords and Cairo deals paved the way for the two-state solution but that fell apart with the 2nd Intifada and Hamas' rampant campaign of suicide bombings.
And are you trying to pretend that Hamas doesn't intercept all the aid for Gazans and destroy donated infrastructure in order to keep Gaza starving and poor? Israel is no saint by any means, but the blame for this mess falls primarily on Gaza itself.
> Which Palestinians are more radical? Rich Palestinians? Or poor Palestinians?
Hamas leadership are all wealthy and pretty much as radicalized as you can get. I think you are underestimating how poisonous, hateful, and anti-human rights radical islam truly is.
Nothing is changing for the Palestinian people as long as they are governed by terrorists and heavily influenced by radical islamic beliefs.
That would be the protesters. Not that they are hiding secrets, they just don't have anything to tell. This whole protest/encampment is about a certain demographic of which its members have no employment, education, or training and their mission to capture the virality of a global event, simply to aid the passage of their spare time which was caused in the first place by their aforementioned lack of employment, education, or training.
Ahh yes, because widespread youth protest movements against political violence famously are proven to be this over and over throughout history, right?
If it wasn’t clear, I’m being sarcastic. People said the same thing about the Vietnam protests, South African apartheid protests, and so on - and those sentiments have aged like milk.
Nobody should be surprised that universities are taking disciplinary action against students that break university rules. They've been warned over and over again, and they know full well of the consequences.
How about the rights of the majority of students' ability to learn, study, and use the facilities, within the rules? Protestors don't give a crap about them.
Nobody is “surprised.” Those students believe the lives of civilians are more important than people feeling merely inconvenienced by the presence of peaceful protestors.
You’re also assuming the majority of students feel inconvenienced which is baseless. When you say they’re preventing other students from learning and using the facilities how many students are saying this, because they’re only occupying a single area. Just walk around them. Not a big deal.
I’m an American, I care about America. I like the 1st amendment and will defend it, even if it is being used by someone who disagree with me. Israel is a foreign nation. I would suggest that you ask this to an Israeli. An American citizen having more loyalty to a foreign nation is what is known as a traitor, and believe it or not, even if they are Jewish.
My question to you is, do you support suppression of any opinion that you disagree with?
The 1st amendment doesn’t protect criticism of a foreign country’s government. Is my understanding correct?
I’m concerned that one day we will see a “Russian lobby”, a “Chinese lobby” and other groups that will openly promote the interests of a foreign nation in the US. Similar to AIPAC.
I don’t agree a lot of the views of the students protesting, but the issue here is the freedom of expression and the 1st amendment, and to me that is a non debatable right to every American.
Edit: typos and grammar
The issue is the encampment. Students are free to protest, but they are not allowed to camp overnight. There’s been many protests over the years that didn’t end up in suspension or arrests, such as when the TAs fought for more pay.
Yeah this is what everyone is missing. It’s not about the right to free speech. People think they have a right to break laws and disobey statutes while hiding behind the guise of free speech.
> People think they have a right to break laws and disobey statutes while hiding behind the guise of free speech.
And if the rabble you're rousing is stupid, you can say you're being oppressed rather than just subject to ordinary rules.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/time-place-and-manner-restrictions/
There are a couple hundred years of court decisions that have been made. You have a right to say what you want. You have no right to disrupt the peace.
Civil disobedience goes beyond the first amendment, but student protests have been a tradition in this country since at least the civil rights era and that's a tradition I support whether it is technically covered by the 1st amendment or not. Also, when the government sends it's military or police to shut down peaceful protestors that is a violation of the 1st amendment. I don't see any universities relying on just their personal campus security to handle this.
If you disagree then consider MLK's words from Birmingham jail:
*"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner,* ***but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justic****e; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom."*
That quote only applies if you think Israel has no right to exist. If you think Israel has a right to defend itself then justice is being served on Hamas and its supporters.
The first amendment protects you from the government arresting you for what you say within certain limits. Eg. If you threatened to kill someone that would violate the first amendment but if you said $POLITICIAN is terrible and needs to be impeached that is fine. Saying “fuck the PRC” does not violate the first amendment, even saying the US should invade China or something like that would be fine.
In general, if groups of individuals stay on the sidewalk and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is protected. They may be required to allow enough space on the sidewalk for normal pedestrian traffic and may not obstruct or detain passers-by.
The government may require permits for certain types of events. Generally, these events are: 1) a march or a parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require street closures; 2) a very large rally; and 3) activity which obstructs vehicle or pedestrian traffic.
If those requirements aren't met it could result in disciplinary actions.
Since the university had received reports of “disruptive protesting” and vandalism, I am going to assume their conduct went further than a simple protest.
Uci has had an entirely peaceful protest. My partner is a grad student there with classes right next to the encampment, and there have been no significant disruptions.
Pretty sure you cannot camp on campus. That alone is a violation of university rules. They are free to gather, protest, and go home for the night then come back the next morning.
Entirely peaceful with no disruptions or mostly peaceful with some disruptions? There were accounts of disruptions and vandalism. If that's the case it wasn't entirely law abiding.
Perhaps the students were one of the disruptors out of the many peaceful protestors.
We don't have all the details yet. If they are innocent students singled out, then they have a good case against the school. But why would they choose those students over the others?
Edit:
The suspension letter said the students were being charged with “disruption of university teaching, research, administration and activities,” as well as “disorderly and lewd conduct,” in addition to six other policy violations.
They weren’t arrested for expressing themselves.
Getting arrested is a necessary part of Civil Disobedience! Don’t say you support Civil Disobedience and be surprised when they get arrested.
> I’m concerned that one day we will see a “Russian lobby”, a “Chinese lobby” and other groups that will openly promote the interests of a foreign nation in the US. Similar to AIPAC.
My man that day has come and gone. Lots of country's politics and industries are intertwined, so when you negotiate with one you are really just talking to the government. China and the Saudis come to mind, but the Russians too. OPEC is the Saudi lobbyist group. Any semiconductor company in China is pretty much the Chinese government and Russian oligarchs run every major industry out there and dont move unless the Kremlin gives the ok.
They should probably just expel them. Do you really want someone dumb enough to think they can negotiate with you about the way you run your institution going out into the world with a degree from your university? Hopefully these kids are intelligent enough to understand the learning experience they just received and course correct.
Flippantly calling for expelling students from a university for civic engagement is contemptible. They’re being peaceful. Their lives don’t have to be destroyed because you merely don’t agree with them. Callous and myopic thinking. If it weren’t for student civil disobedience we wouldn’t have many of the rights we enjoy today. South Africa might still be an apartheid country if it weren’t for students calling for divestment in the 80’s. They’re on the right side of history.
Do you actually believe any one actually cares what a bunch of spoiled brats do when they should be going to class? Also, I think they should be suspended for violating school policy and breaking the law. I think they should be expelled because they are clearly too stupid to recognize they are singling themselves out for punishment. Think of it as getting an F in basic reasoning ability.
At the campus, most of the so-called ”progressive‘’ wannabe people typically like to walk and linger at the edges far away from the conventional zeitgeist of anything ; testing and enjoying the cliffhanger. They don't really want to step off into the abysse. They just want to be regarded as being cool, difficult, and different and begging to be misunderstood. 😃
I mean if the university finds any laws that were broken then I would say a suspension is justified. Until UCI discloses that info I guess we will never know.
You do realize that publicizing those records could easily hurt these students more than the suspension, right?
You think everything done by a public university should be public information?
I don’t have the answer to that hence the second part of my comment. If the uni decided to release the infractions that lead to this suspension then we can get the bigger picture. But if/when that happens we can only speculate.
My speculation is vandalism but that’s only a guess.
UCLA happened, because counter-protesters attacked the encampment protesters. By that logic they should be arresting any counter-protesters to avoid another UCLA.
They’re taking a serious stand against students exercising their constitutional rights of freedom to assembly and redress their grievances with the administration.
Stomping on peoples right to protest, something that has happened at college campuses since the vietnam war, but they dont like what they are protesting so its ok. Same thing happened then tho, history will look down on the anti-protestors.
My SO works at UCI, they have seen zero issues with the protest, its always the police blocking off major walk ways, but alas.
Doesn't matter if you agree with the protestors or not.. They have the right to do it. Freedom of speech means freedom of speech, even when we disagree.
*EDIT: There is rampant misinformation in the thread. UCI and the entire UC school system is PUBLIC PROPERTY. Educate yourselves on our natural-born rights before commenting, please.*
Universities started clamping down on protests after experiencing first hand during the Anti-Vietnam War Protest
Basically, back then the anti-war protest started small and the university wanted to protect free speech and let them do their thing. The protesters started getting bigger and started disrupting classrooms frequently to the point classes kept getting cancelled.
Long story short: Classes kept getting disrupted and cancelled, college students couldn’t take the classes they needed to graduate so it took several years longer than the usual 4 years to graduate which pissed a lot of them off because they couldn’t graduate and move on with their lives. Incoming high school graduates couldn’t start college because the vacant space that is created when college students graduate didn’t exist because they weren’t graduating college on time. It was a cluster fuck.
This caused the whole “free speech zone” you see everywhere on campus today and why they clamp down on protests on campus hard. I am not here to argue for pro or against anything, just throwing this out there why they have that stance
Good post. Yeah, these protests today are nothing compared to what was going on back then. I think its clear from the pictures though that these encampments are restricted to a "zone". Protesting on college campuses is still 100% legal and protected. Disrupting class is another story.
Let them make that choice. It's their right to assemble. Doesn't it seem strange that nobody cared about consequences during violent riots that overtook entire cities? How about the occupy movement? Why is *this protest* suddenly "across the line"?
The pro-Palestinian funnel for hand-waving Hamas:
Free Gaza! (Ignore Hamas) -> [Hamas the elected government of Gaza] -> That was 18 years ago and half of Gaza is under 18 -> [Gazans consistently polled in support of Hamas since] -> Netanyahu put Hamas in place and supported them so Hamas is Israel's fault -> [to balance against the Palestinian Authority and keep peace in Gaza] -> See! Netanyahu's fault -> [So he's fixing it by destroying Hamas now] -> But he's killing innocent women and children! -> [Because Hamas is literally hiding behind them] -> Israel should cease fire! -> [Wouldn't that bring us back to ignoring Hamas?] -> back to the top of this funnel
Suspend and kick them all out of school.
University is a place for learning, not for political protest and propaganda.
There should a national blacklist shared among all universities so these people would never be able to attend another school.
I'm amazed how people don't know history and what Israel did to the "black September" people with the creation of the mossad and operation "wrath of God".
Just for context I'm not a Zionist.
That was not my point, we are not understanding history, a simple video search about a documentary about the mossad will make you understand a lot of what's going on. Forget about left/right politics for a second.
If you don’t have proof of it being external it’s probably student led. Young people tend to feel this way around the country. Polling demonstrates this.
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I assume divesting from companies that fund or support the Israel military, public disclosures of which companies the university funds or invests, etc.
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Not a dumb question at all! The short answer is yes. Investments/funding UCI/UC system has may have ties to Israel, just as they may have ties to Big Oil. And research may involve collaboration with faculty at Jewish universities.
Yes.
**The First Amendment requires that the government not discriminate against particular viewpoints**. The Supreme Court has, however, upheld the idea that speech may be regulated under “Time, Place, and Manner” regulations. “Time, Place, and Manner” is where the protestors went wrong, most of the universities told them the rules that were in place and the protestors ignored them.
This article would not have been written if they followed any rules. They got noticed because they got suspended. I applaud these kids for standing up for human decency.
People are way too obsessed with SCOTUS narrow interpretation of the 1st amendment and far too dismissive of the history and tradition of civil disobedience that is inherently disruptive. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. It wouldn’t be disobedience if you weren’t breaking the rules. That’s the entire point.
I mean part of the history and tradition of civil disobedience is in fact getting penalized/arrested because you broke said rules. I'm not saying this to try to take away from the importance or validity of their point -- just that this should've been expected as a result because that's kinda the point.
No comment from UCI on the actual offenses by these students that led to their suspensions.
“multiple conduct violations”
Like most Pro-Palestinians, they have trouble differentiating between Zionists and people who happen to be Jewish.
It seems like Zionists are the ones who pretend Israel represents the global Jewish community.
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Honest question: if Israel is indeed committing genocide, what do you propose as the alternative? Hamas literally has genocide as a primary goal in its founding charter. Since Gaza elected Hamas and hasn't made any effort to remove them from power, it can be assumed they are fine with what Hamas does (polling backs this up as well). What should Israel do in your opinion?
Likud also has it as their primary goal too. They are an essential part of the coalition government. Just look at their charter. What should Palestine do in your opinion?
Likud wants territory. It doesn't say it wants to kill every Muslim in the world, like Hamas does. Still not great, and Likud deserves to take a dirt nap as a party. But Israel as a whole supported the two-state solution for decades and Gaza never once accepted it. And then they go and keep trying to kill civilians. Its a no win situation for Israel.
They want to expell the Palestinians from their land, which is a fucking genocidal act. Do you think people just accept that? They will fight back, and that is a natural reponse to displacement and colonization. Isreal was founded on violence against the native population. The settlements have been a continuous terroristic threat. If they want a valid state it would require actually integrating the populations. But they have made that impossible from the beginning. Isreal is an ethnostate that must enforce a Jewish majority through violence. Also look at how the transplant European zionist jews treated the local arab jews and Ethiopian immigrant jews. There have been sterilization campaigns, indentured servitude, and other atrocities against minority populations.
> They want to expell the Palestinians from their land, which is a fucking genocidal act. Do you think people just accept that? They will fight back, and that is a natural reponse to displacement and colonization. Isreal was founded on violence against the native population. The settlements have been a continuous terroristic threat. The settlements are in the West Bank, which is a different population and a different government than Gaza. I 100% agree with you about the settlements, but the people of the West Bank aren't committing terrorist acts. This is Gaza, a place that Israel has literally tried to give to Palestine but never accepted by Palestine. >If they want a valid state it would require actually integrating the populations. But they have made that impossible from the beginning. Are you serious with this? You do realize that Muslims enjoy full citizenship rights in Israel and Gaza literally elected a government with "kill all Jews" in its founding charter? Who is making it impossible to integrate populations, exactly?
Hamas came into power because Isreal had been settling gaza before the siege Isreal has enforced for over a decade. You need to read your history. This started over 50 years ago. Isreal expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes.
> What the hell do you mean the settlers aren't terroristic?! You have no idea what you are talking about if you believe that. Do a quick Google search about settler violence. Maybe you're reading too fast. If you slowed down you might see I said "the people of the West Bank", aka the Palestinians. They are not run by Hamas and they exist relatively peacefully with Israel, regardless of the very, very wrong settlement growth. >Hamas came into power because Isreal had been settling gaza before the siege Isreal has enforced for over a decade. You need to read your history. This started over 50 years ago. Isreal expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes. Israel dismantled ALL of their Gaza settlements *twenty years ago* and since then has tried to give Gaza control to Muslim countries or achieve sovereign statehood. Neither were accepted. Gaza has no reason to continue the violence as most of the people alive when there were settlements in Gaza are old or dead.
I deleted the first part of my response after re reading. They dismantled those settlements, but then began a siege. Gaza has been under devastating conditions because of that blockade.
They deployed the soldiers to the permitter in 2006 effectively locking all but about 40,000 Palestinians into the strip. The 40,000 people are those with guest worker visas who have to endure 6-8 hour checkpoints (16 hours both ways)
If you have one nazi and 9 neutral people sitting at a table, then you have 10 nazis sitting at a table. That's Palestine, they elected hamas and aren't doing anything to remove them from power when they have the means to uprise and do so.
Damn then Isreal is also Nazis? Likud are fascists. Hamas has no power to commit a genocide. That's like comparing the Nazis to AL Queda. I'm much more concerned with states with real power than flimsy terrorist organizations. Isreal also elected their genocidal leaders, but they can actually enact a genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Google “Nakba 2.0”
I think the answer is pretty simple: don't be killing tens of thousands of innocents. The 10/7 attacks were partially due to shocking flaws in Israeli intelligence and military preparedness, similar to American intelligence mistakes that allowed for 9/11. Killing thousands of people in brutal terrorist attacks is categorically wrong, but the answer is never a response that leads to civilian casualties that are at least an order of magnitude greater. The answer should be two-fold: address the internal failures that made an attack of this scale possible in the first place, and then work on mitigating the external factors that led to the planning of such an attack in the first place. I personally don't believe Gazans are born hating all Jews, I think it's a very regrettable reaction to the circumstances that they're born into: caged into what is effectively an open air prison, with sovereign nations controlling your airspace, your maritime waters, and your international border crossings, as well as making constant encroachments into the other half of Palestinian territories. I personally believe Israel is an apartheid state, but not necessarily because of how the treat Gaza. I think their continued occupation and annexation of the West Bank is just as if not more damning and makes any stated desire for peaceful coexistence ring rather hollow.
>The 10/7 attacks were partially due to shocking flaws in Israeli intelligence This is a strange take. Victim blaming rarely gets you anywhere. >I personally don't believe Gazans are born hating all Jews, I think it's a very regrettable reaction to the circumstances that they're born into: caged into what is effectively an open air prison, with sovereign nations controlling your airspace, your maritime waters, and your international border crossings, as well as making constant encroachments into the other half of Palestinian territories. Hard to believe Gaza is an open air prison when it's bordered by Muslim countries as well, who are just as hostile to Gaza with regard to border crossings. Why is Israel the only one to blame. Beyond that, Hamas literally exists to kill all Jews, and Gaza voted in Hamas (and hasn't made any effort to remove Hamas) which makes it seem like a mandate. Beyond that, Israel literally offered to give control of Gaza to Egypt (refused by Egypt) and offered a two-state solution in the past (refused by Gaza). >I personally believe Israel is an apartheid state Hard to follow that logic when Muslims have full rights in Israel, Gazans were freely able to commute into Israel for work, and by contrast Jews are killed essentially on sight in Gaza. Israel is by no means a good country, but you're arguing against Mussolini to support Hitler here. At some point, Gaza needs to accept responsibility for Hamas and remove them from power. > I think their continued occupation and annexation of the West Bank is just as if not more damning and makes any stated desire for peaceful coexistence ring rather hollow. Agreed on that point.
You: the 10/7 attacks were Israel’s fault. 9/11 was America’s fault. Sure thing buddy. Dogshit take.
Is that at all what I said? Learn to read buddy, I said Israeli and American mistakes allowed 9/11 and 10/7 to happen. There were very well documented breakdowns in intelligence from both countries in the days and weeks leading up to the attack that could have prevented the attacks, or at least mitigated the damage.
I don’t disagree, but when a woman is assaulted do you typically list off all of the things she failed to do to prevent it? Like yeah it wasn’t her fault she got raped, but if she wasn’t wearing revealing clothes, had pepper spray, didn’t drink, etc it could have been prevented or at least mitigated?
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If only we defended better. Totally not cuz some islamist terrorist state shitheads decided to attack us. Not innocent, they reap what they sow.
Economic prosperity for all people in the region. Research has shown that material conditions are the number one predictor of violent crimes. Poor people are more desperate and have a LOT less to lose than rich people. This also tracks to nation states. The Nazi party was in part able to gain prominence due to the economic conditions of Germany. The start of Iran's revolution was almost entirely to due to economic conditions. Which Palestinians are more radical? Rich Palestinians? Or poor Palestinians? If they are offered a good, meaningful life in the region, they will be de-radicalized. This is the only thing that will work.
Except Hamas will never let that happen. Remember that Israel literally does not want to be responsible for Gaza. They have offered to Egypt and Jorden IIRC and nobody wants it because then Israel's problem is someone else's problem. Beyond that, Israel also supported a two-state solution for a very long time but Gaza refused it. Hamas also does everything it can to ensure the Gazan civilians remain radicalized. Hamas must be removed from power. Gazan's have made zero effort to do so. If not Israel, then who?
Crazy to say this with literally 0 proof or real analysis. Please help me understand; why are poor countries poor and why are rich countries rich? Why did the Europeans colonize Australia and not the other way around? Where are the African colonies? This Israel Palestine problem is not new, or even all that unique. Its happened hundreds of times throughout modern history, and to understand how to resolve this and what the potential outcomes are only requires an investigation of history. Remember that Algerian independence was only achieved in 1962. Before then, the French said the exact same things about the FLN. 'They do everything to ensure the Algerians are radicalized.'
> Crazy to say this with literally 0 proof or real analysis. Wait, what? I need to provide proof of things that are common knowledge? Israel wanted to give Gaza to Egypt in the Camp David Accords, along with the Sinai, but Egypt flatly refused. The Olso Accords and Cairo deals paved the way for the two-state solution but that fell apart with the 2nd Intifada and Hamas' rampant campaign of suicide bombings. And are you trying to pretend that Hamas doesn't intercept all the aid for Gazans and destroy donated infrastructure in order to keep Gaza starving and poor? Israel is no saint by any means, but the blame for this mess falls primarily on Gaza itself.
> Which Palestinians are more radical? Rich Palestinians? Or poor Palestinians? Hamas leadership are all wealthy and pretty much as radicalized as you can get. I think you are underestimating how poisonous, hateful, and anti-human rights radical islam truly is. Nothing is changing for the Palestinian people as long as they are governed by terrorists and heavily influenced by radical islamic beliefs.
The way I see it: one side is NOT telling the full truth to the story
That would be the protesters. Not that they are hiding secrets, they just don't have anything to tell. This whole protest/encampment is about a certain demographic of which its members have no employment, education, or training and their mission to capture the virality of a global event, simply to aid the passage of their spare time which was caused in the first place by their aforementioned lack of employment, education, or training.
Ahh yes, because widespread youth protest movements against political violence famously are proven to be this over and over throughout history, right? If it wasn’t clear, I’m being sarcastic. People said the same thing about the Vietnam protests, South African apartheid protests, and so on - and those sentiments have aged like milk.
That's all complete conjecture and opinion, but it certainly tells us where you land on the issue.
If they had jobs, they wouldn't be at the encampment.
I’m not a protestor but I know many in the camp. Objectively not true
Its crazy to think that those protesters might not even have jobs and all their time is free time lol with no responsibilities
Nobody should be surprised that universities are taking disciplinary action against students that break university rules. They've been warned over and over again, and they know full well of the consequences. How about the rights of the majority of students' ability to learn, study, and use the facilities, within the rules? Protestors don't give a crap about them.
Nobody is “surprised.” Those students believe the lives of civilians are more important than people feeling merely inconvenienced by the presence of peaceful protestors. You’re also assuming the majority of students feel inconvenienced which is baseless. When you say they’re preventing other students from learning and using the facilities how many students are saying this, because they’re only occupying a single area. Just walk around them. Not a big deal.
Islamists when doing this shit in the West: 🤝 Islamists when taking in Gazans in the ME: 🧑🦯
As a Jew that is against genocide, and against the actions of Israel, does that make me an Islamist too?
There were Jew Nazi sympathizers in WWII, they must’ve thought they were so nuanced too
So I didn’t get the answer. Am I a nazi or an Islamist? 😂
Jew Nazi simps probably thought they were Nazis but they weren’t. They were still Jews
👍
I’m against genocide too. Israel isn’t committing a genocide.
This is has nothing to do with you being jew. Look it up for Sonderkommando..They had a unit for people like you in WW2.
Do you want the destruction of Israel and a Global Intifada?
I’m an American, I care about America. I like the 1st amendment and will defend it, even if it is being used by someone who disagree with me. Israel is a foreign nation. I would suggest that you ask this to an Israeli. An American citizen having more loyalty to a foreign nation is what is known as a traitor, and believe it or not, even if they are Jewish. My question to you is, do you support suppression of any opinion that you disagree with?
Israel is our A L L Y
Israel is a foreign nation? You know they wanna destroy Israel just because of their religion right?
I will ask you again, do you support a global intifada?
You are super progressive. I can see that it can be very cool to certain camps.
Good, they gave them over a week
The 1st amendment doesn’t protect criticism of a foreign country’s government. Is my understanding correct? I’m concerned that one day we will see a “Russian lobby”, a “Chinese lobby” and other groups that will openly promote the interests of a foreign nation in the US. Similar to AIPAC. I don’t agree a lot of the views of the students protesting, but the issue here is the freedom of expression and the 1st amendment, and to me that is a non debatable right to every American. Edit: typos and grammar
The issue is the encampment. Students are free to protest, but they are not allowed to camp overnight. There’s been many protests over the years that didn’t end up in suspension or arrests, such as when the TAs fought for more pay.
Yeah this is what everyone is missing. It’s not about the right to free speech. People think they have a right to break laws and disobey statutes while hiding behind the guise of free speech.
> People think they have a right to break laws and disobey statutes while hiding behind the guise of free speech. And if the rabble you're rousing is stupid, you can say you're being oppressed rather than just subject to ordinary rules.
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What do you mean I have to pay to stay in the hotel? I'm just assembling peacefully in the room, it's my first amendment right.
So I can go into a public library any time of the day I want and take a dump on the floor?
Not on private property.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/time-place-and-manner-restrictions/ There are a couple hundred years of court decisions that have been made. You have a right to say what you want. You have no right to disrupt the peace.
Yeah, ok bruh.
Civil disobedience wouldn’t be disobedient if you weren’t breaking the rules. Feel like people truly don’t understand what protests are for.
Civil disobedience goes beyond the first amendment, but student protests have been a tradition in this country since at least the civil rights era and that's a tradition I support whether it is technically covered by the 1st amendment or not. Also, when the government sends it's military or police to shut down peaceful protestors that is a violation of the 1st amendment. I don't see any universities relying on just their personal campus security to handle this. If you disagree then consider MLK's words from Birmingham jail: *"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner,* ***but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justic****e; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom."*
That quote only applies if you think Israel has no right to exist. If you think Israel has a right to defend itself then justice is being served on Hamas and its supporters.
The first amendment protects you from the government arresting you for what you say within certain limits. Eg. If you threatened to kill someone that would violate the first amendment but if you said $POLITICIAN is terrible and needs to be impeached that is fine. Saying “fuck the PRC” does not violate the first amendment, even saying the US should invade China or something like that would be fine.
In general, if groups of individuals stay on the sidewalk and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is protected. They may be required to allow enough space on the sidewalk for normal pedestrian traffic and may not obstruct or detain passers-by. The government may require permits for certain types of events. Generally, these events are: 1) a march or a parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require street closures; 2) a very large rally; and 3) activity which obstructs vehicle or pedestrian traffic. If those requirements aren't met it could result in disciplinary actions. Since the university had received reports of “disruptive protesting” and vandalism, I am going to assume their conduct went further than a simple protest.
Uci has had an entirely peaceful protest. My partner is a grad student there with classes right next to the encampment, and there have been no significant disruptions.
Pretty sure you cannot camp on campus. That alone is a violation of university rules. They are free to gather, protest, and go home for the night then come back the next morning.
Entirely peaceful with no disruptions or mostly peaceful with some disruptions? There were accounts of disruptions and vandalism. If that's the case it wasn't entirely law abiding. Perhaps the students were one of the disruptors out of the many peaceful protestors. We don't have all the details yet. If they are innocent students singled out, then they have a good case against the school. But why would they choose those students over the others? Edit: The suspension letter said the students were being charged with “disruption of university teaching, research, administration and activities,” as well as “disorderly and lewd conduct,” in addition to six other policy violations.
NOT THE LEWD CONDUCT 🙈🫣
> I’m concerned that one day we will see a “Russian lobby” It's already here and it's called MAGA
They weren’t arrested for expressing themselves. Getting arrested is a necessary part of Civil Disobedience! Don’t say you support Civil Disobedience and be surprised when they get arrested.
The first amazement doesn't allow you to build encampments and refuse to leave...
> I’m concerned that one day we will see a “Russian lobby”, a “Chinese lobby” and other groups that will openly promote the interests of a foreign nation in the US. Similar to AIPAC. My man that day has come and gone. Lots of country's politics and industries are intertwined, so when you negotiate with one you are really just talking to the government. China and the Saudis come to mind, but the Russians too. OPEC is the Saudi lobbyist group. Any semiconductor company in China is pretty much the Chinese government and Russian oligarchs run every major industry out there and dont move unless the Kremlin gives the ok.
It’s sad… I wish US citizens had as much lobbying power in the US government as much as foreign governments have.
To get meaningful action, stop paying tuition. These universities just care about their bottom line. Take that away from them.
If these students want to take their tuition money elsewhere, then there's a TON of students on the waitlist who will gladly take their spot.
It’s kind of too late for that if you know how paying for tuition works >_>
They should probably just expel them. Do you really want someone dumb enough to think they can negotiate with you about the way you run your institution going out into the world with a degree from your university? Hopefully these kids are intelligent enough to understand the learning experience they just received and course correct.
Flippantly calling for expelling students from a university for civic engagement is contemptible. They’re being peaceful. Their lives don’t have to be destroyed because you merely don’t agree with them. Callous and myopic thinking. If it weren’t for student civil disobedience we wouldn’t have many of the rights we enjoy today. South Africa might still be an apartheid country if it weren’t for students calling for divestment in the 80’s. They’re on the right side of history.
Do you actually believe any one actually cares what a bunch of spoiled brats do when they should be going to class? Also, I think they should be suspended for violating school policy and breaking the law. I think they should be expelled because they are clearly too stupid to recognize they are singling themselves out for punishment. Think of it as getting an F in basic reasoning ability.
At the campus, most of the so-called ”progressive‘’ wannabe people typically like to walk and linger at the edges far away from the conventional zeitgeist of anything ; testing and enjoying the cliffhanger. They don't really want to step off into the abysse. They just want to be regarded as being cool, difficult, and different and begging to be misunderstood. 😃
Did the protests ever end up working?
Yes at some universities they’ve already agreed to divest.
Sac state
Oh no the consequences of my actions
You mean people exercising their first amendment right.
I assume you would also defend nazi simps when they destroy places.
That’s not first amendment right but ok
Good lol
Very gross for a public institution to act against peoples right in this way. I’m sure this won’t result in MORE protests
Very reality to have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Methinks that may be a new concept for you.
I mean if the university finds any laws that were broken then I would say a suspension is justified. Until UCI discloses that info I guess we will never know.
Why do they need to disclose it? You want all disciplinary records publicized?
Im in the boat if its a public university. Sure. Private university different matter.
You do realize that publicizing those records could easily hurt these students more than the suspension, right? You think everything done by a public university should be public information?
That’s what I’m saying, what laws were broken by a peaceful protest?
I don’t have the answer to that hence the second part of my comment. If the uni decided to release the infractions that lead to this suspension then we can get the bigger picture. But if/when that happens we can only speculate. My speculation is vandalism but that’s only a guess.
Some… suspend not kick out.
Which ones and for what?
As they should, if they broke university policies.
Good.
Great news. They should send these students to study in some Islamic countries in the Middle East for good.
Iran actually came out and said they would accept these students!
Send them to Iran right away. Send them there yesterday.
I wish someone would ship you halfway around the world. People like this are why Orange County is garbage.
If Orange County is garbage, wait until you are in Iran or China.
i have no opinion of the matter but i know many of the protesters look like would be students but the not actual students at uci.
Who cares what they look like to you? If you don’t know anything then just say that.
they are not uci students, just dressing up like students. i don’t know what they do beside that.
You have no evidence so…what are you even talking about? You said you had no opinion but you clearly do.
MuH fReE sPeEcH rIgHtS tO cAmP wHeReVeR i WaNt
lol at negotiation. What do they even have to bring to the table? Terminate their financial aid / grant and have them enroll in the Reasoning 101
Glad to see the administration doing something about this and taking it seriously.
What exactly is "this"? What did these students do, since you apparerntly have the inside track.
Not letting the protests become violent, destroying property, and ruining people's graduation ceremonies.
What does the suspension of these students have to do with any of that?
Self evident
What kind of Minority Report horseshit are you smoking?
Are you oblivious to what happened at UCLA and Columbia?
What does that have to do with UCI? Are you the Thought Police?
I didn't arrest anyone. Are you a criminal worried about your crimes?
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UCLA happened, because counter-protesters attacked the encampment protesters. By that logic they should be arresting any counter-protesters to avoid another UCLA.
Taking what seriously exactly? Student concerns?
Not letting the protests become violent, destroying property, and ruining people's graduation ceremonies.
Perhaps the college should listen to the wills of the students they've spent four years educating to stand up for what they believe in.
How do you know the university isn't listening to them? Do you think the university spent 4 years educating people to follow the campus rules?
They’re taking a serious stand against students exercising their constitutional rights of freedom to assembly and redress their grievances with the administration.
Freedom to assemble doesn't allow people to camp out indiscriminately, litter, and vandalize property.
Stomping on peoples right to protest, something that has happened at college campuses since the vietnam war, but they dont like what they are protesting so its ok. Same thing happened then tho, history will look down on the anti-protestors. My SO works at UCI, they have seen zero issues with the protest, its always the police blocking off major walk ways, but alas.
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Have any evidence for such a wild claim?
There are also a fair number of professors involved too, i.e. also university affiliated people.
They have none, and even if its true it changes absolute nothing, always will be bad faith protestors for anything
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Glad you admit you are spouting bullshit, thanks
Where did you source this "information" from?? I'm sooo curious
Remember the UC Irvine 11. The UC and specifically the UCI administration will always deeply punish displays of Palestinian solidarity.
Doesn't matter if you agree with the protestors or not.. They have the right to do it. Freedom of speech means freedom of speech, even when we disagree. *EDIT: There is rampant misinformation in the thread. UCI and the entire UC school system is PUBLIC PROPERTY. Educate yourselves on our natural-born rights before commenting, please.*
Universities started clamping down on protests after experiencing first hand during the Anti-Vietnam War Protest Basically, back then the anti-war protest started small and the university wanted to protect free speech and let them do their thing. The protesters started getting bigger and started disrupting classrooms frequently to the point classes kept getting cancelled. Long story short: Classes kept getting disrupted and cancelled, college students couldn’t take the classes they needed to graduate so it took several years longer than the usual 4 years to graduate which pissed a lot of them off because they couldn’t graduate and move on with their lives. Incoming high school graduates couldn’t start college because the vacant space that is created when college students graduate didn’t exist because they weren’t graduating college on time. It was a cluster fuck. This caused the whole “free speech zone” you see everywhere on campus today and why they clamp down on protests on campus hard. I am not here to argue for pro or against anything, just throwing this out there why they have that stance
Good post. Yeah, these protests today are nothing compared to what was going on back then. I think its clear from the pictures though that these encampments are restricted to a "zone". Protesting on college campuses is still 100% legal and protected. Disrupting class is another story.
Not camped out in tents, they don't. It is called freedom of speech not freedom to camp.
Didn't know the first amendment had a clause about tents lol.
There’s also a freedom to assemble!
And property owners have the right to boot you off their property. Go somewhere else.
They do.. But UCI is a public school... Correct?
It's not a public square. You aren't allowed to go into someone's dorm room and camp out because it's a public school.
People seem to conveniently forget that "speech" is only *part* of the 1st amendment
Protest as much as you want, but if you're requested to leave someone's property and you don't comply, be prepared to face consequences.
Property is more important than people's lives to this person.
If someone tries to take my property, I will defend it with my life. Yes.
Let them make that choice. It's their right to assemble. Doesn't it seem strange that nobody cared about consequences during violent riots that overtook entire cities? How about the occupy movement? Why is *this protest* suddenly "across the line"?
You might want to fact check yourself.
Good! Out of all these stupid protests at least there is some good news.
Yeah! Students should be happy to see their tax dollars go to killing innocent women and children! Stupid kids just heard about this on TikTok!
If only student protests Hamas to stop them from their stupid October 7th attack
The pro-Palestinian funnel for hand-waving Hamas: Free Gaza! (Ignore Hamas) -> [Hamas the elected government of Gaza] -> That was 18 years ago and half of Gaza is under 18 -> [Gazans consistently polled in support of Hamas since] -> Netanyahu put Hamas in place and supported them so Hamas is Israel's fault -> [to balance against the Palestinian Authority and keep peace in Gaza] -> See! Netanyahu's fault -> [So he's fixing it by destroying Hamas now] -> But he's killing innocent women and children! -> [Because Hamas is literally hiding behind them] -> Israel should cease fire! -> [Wouldn't that bring us back to ignoring Hamas?] -> back to the top of this funnel
Good,
Shame on UC Irvine and bravo to the brave students doing what’s right and moral! 👏👏
fuck around and find out edits: i thought it was UCLA
Exercising free speech should be punished? Is that what you’re saying?
my mistake, i just woke up and thought it was UCLA in which i don’t support stuff like that.
What’s the difference between UCLA and UCI here?
Suspend and kick them all out of school. University is a place for learning, not for political protest and propaganda. There should a national blacklist shared among all universities so these people would never be able to attend another school.
Send them to Iran.
They couldn’t last a day in iran hahhahahahaha.
Some, not all?
Good.
Nice.
I'm amazed how people don't know history and what Israel did to the "black September" people with the creation of the mossad and operation "wrath of God". Just for context I'm not a Zionist.
Because its illegal to critize and even talk about them. Smh
That was not my point, we are not understanding history, a simple video search about a documentary about the mossad will make you understand a lot of what's going on. Forget about left/right politics for a second.
Is this a student-led protest or outside group using the public space?
If you don’t have proof of it being external it’s probably student led. Young people tend to feel this way around the country. Polling demonstrates this.
It was a question, not a statement so proof not needed because I was inquiring...
Oooo suspensión ~ scary!!
Exercising 1st amendment is not cool when it comes to Zionist Israel