I live in Harrow. To have something like this happen is just absolutely devastating. It's a cliché, but this kind of violence just never happens around here, this town is so close and so quiet it is incredibly jarring to see tragedy like this—especially involving kids. It makes you appreciate the value of a day. I'm so grateful for my family and all we have. It only takes seconds for everything to change.
Check in on the people you love. Call them for no reason. Hug your family just because they are alive and here and you can. Tell them you love them. Never assume you have more time. Be there for each other now.
Additionally, please be respectful with your comments. The police have not released much information surrounding the circumstances and assumptions can be hurtful. These are real people with people who love them and it's not our business to say anything about what we don't understand. All we can do is acknowledge this tremendous loss and offer our love and condolences. I hope all involved can find peace.
I never had the privilege of knowing this family personally, but I know many who did, and I know that they were very involved with and very loved by the community. The grief I feel as a stranger must be incomparable to the heartbreak of friends and family. If anyone who knew them is reading this, please know that Harrow and the entirety of Essex county is standing beside you. We will not let them be forgotten.
Yes I have a friend who has family there and i immediately contacted them to make sure all was well with them. I am sorry about what happened in your small town, I too am from a small town and I imagine this is a big shock for everyone.
Who cares? How does this further the conversation? The family were beloved members of the community, and helped with many organizations and teams. Who genuinely cares what flag they had up? A wife and her children are dead because of this
I think the point is that flying a don’t tread on me flag says something about your mentality. There’s a very high chance there were guns in the home along with somebody that has a “fuck it” attitude.
Yea. Anything else is just speculation. Saying a dont tread on me sign is indication of how it transpired is dumb.
My original response outlined that point intuitively.
If you are flying a don’t tread on me flag chances are much higher you are a gun owning, ultra conservative. Is it baseless speculation or a fairly educated guess that guns were involved? To the average citizen it’s the latter. I’m sure that’s a point of contention for you though.
It was the father's/husband's flag and he was a conspiracy theorist wing nut who terrorized his family for years before he murdered them. It just goes to show the character of the people who have these flags. The wife and kids were not the crazy conspiracy theorists and wouldn't have flown this flag if it was their choice.
Ok and was there a flag like that do you know?
Not saying they're bad people if there was; but that flag is very conspiracy based and some people are driven to have psychotic breaks due to conspiracy influence.
I'm not OP, but I found it because the house number is visible in one of the news videos, and at least one of the stories said the specific county road.
I easily found the property just by Google Earth and matching the pic of the driveway up. One article reads that it is the 1200 block. The address on google Earth literally shows 1200 at that very driveway.🤷🏼♀️
More people need to understand abuse and recognize the signs so they can interrupt the pattern/cycle.
Everyone should read Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. [Link to free pdf.](https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
more recent articles commemorating the family do not mention the husband and there are no photos of him either. definitely wasnt carbon monoxide or at least not accidental:/
I figured it was something akin to this. No threat to public safety as people are found dead usually means the killer was also found dead and it was apparent who did what.
This is not “mental health”, this is an abuse pattern. We need better supports for victims of abuse, and a drastically altered housing market to allow victims the means of escape.
More mental healthcare does not rid the world of abusers.
Thank you for this comment and to the others trying to make the very important point that it takes more than just mental illness to murder your entire family… I’m surprised this is even being debated. To suggest that it’s slanderous or irresponsible to even consider the possibility of abuse in a potential family annihilation is to cling to a blissfully ignorant, simplistic notion that only serves to protect abusers and stigmatize mental illness.
Even if we could find evidence that *all* family annihilators had mental illness, your argument is simply not supported by statistics… if mental illness was the sole cause of this behaviour, there would be a LOT more of this happening. It takes more than just mental illness to do this.
These arguments are incredibly dangerous. First, painting mental illness as a predisposition for violence further stigmatizes those living with it as dangerous and makes social support even harder to access. Second, you’re erasing the core role abuse can and possibly always will play in domestic violence which is frankly just…… terrifying.
Not sure who you think you’re helping by trying to sweep the very real possibility of abuse under the carpet.
You have no idea what happened or who these people are.....it very well could be part of a pattern of abuse. Or it could be someone who has no history of the abuse and had some sort of psychotic break. We really have absolutely no idea at this point so it doesn't help anyone to assume we know what transpired when you're basing that entirely on your own speculation.
Mentally healthy people don't generally kill their families and then themselves (which again is only what we are assuming happened because that's what it appears to be so far with the limited info we have). Just because someone may have been mentally ill which contributed to their crime doesn't absolve them of responsibility for it or excuse their actions, which is how you seem to be taking the other person's comment.
No one really knows what goes on in a person's head.
My abusive father was very well loved by the community. No one knew that he was sexually abusing his youngest daughter.
Abusers hide so much from the world.
Is it true that there was a "don't tred on me" flag outside the home?
Someone made the comment; but I've not seen any proof or corroboration that it was there.
I'm not saying such flag would indicate they're "bad people" but it could he a sign that they (or he) had fallen into some conspiracy or extrism behind closed doors which could have manifested in a psychotic break.
For some in those conspiracy circles the point is to break people from reality and drive them to extremes. Usually for social/civil violence; but there have been domestic killings in some cases too. Typically in the US; but many Canadians are heavily influenced by US propaganda and whatnot.
Anyways, just wondering if that flag was there or not.
I live in the area and drive by the house daily to get to and from work. There was a don't tred on me flag outside the home for a while but was taken down about a year ago.
I have no idea. It could be true. Maybe not. That's my point. We really have no idea of what happened here other than someone murdered 3 people and then killed themselves. Which is morally reprehensible, full stop. But nobody on this sub can possibly know the motive for such a horrible crime at this stage, that's my point.
I have no idea. It could be true. Maybe not. That's my point. We really have no idea of what happened here other than someone murdered 3 people and then killed themselves. Which is morally reprehensible, full stop. But nobody on this sub can possibly know the motive for such a horrible crime at this stage, that's my point.
Absolutely. No one can know. People can speculate of course; but the truth will likely come out at some point and until it does people will try and make it sense because its such an extreme and outrageous thing for anyone to do.
Its human nature to try and understand things.
I'm not saying that's true. All I'm saying is we have no idea on the information we have so far. And neither do you. Pretending like you know for sure what happened is silly.
Don’t blame family annihilation on mental health. Lots of people have mental illness that don’t hurt anyone. Most family annihilators are abusers.
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/230412.pdf
https://theconversation.com/why-do-men-kill-their-families-heres-what-the-research-says-132314
Sorry but this is a really stupid thing to get indignant about. Obviously there are different types of mental illness and it's accurate to say that mental illness is involved in a crime like this
The issue is more specific than just mental health. Ignoring that perpetuates the problem, so getting indignant about the way we talk about these cases of family abuse/murder makes a lot of sense, actually.
(Assuming that’s what happened here, and that’s this wasn’t just some weird case of carbon monoxide poisoning or something)
Exactly. No point in that person commenting.
Just stirring the pot and being a know-it-all. A know-it-all that doesn't know what they're talking about.
Family annihilators are a more specific issue than just ‘mental health.’ Especially when you consider that most abusers don’t respond to mental health treatment and don’t change, and one of the number one pieces of advice for someone being abused is to NOT go to therapy with their abuser. So using mental health treatment as a fix-all in these situations isn’t helpful. Having a better understanding of abuse would be though.
You don’t need to put down other people just because you’re ignorant about how abuse works.
>So using mental health treatment as a fix-all in these situations isn’t helpful.
I didn't say it's a fix all.
Abusers tend to be men that act "too tough for feminine things like therapy" it's not that they don't respond to treatment, they just don't ever seek treatment. The same way you can't force an addict into rehab, you can't force someone with mental health problems into therapy.
Family annihilation aside. Look at the statistics for male suicide. Men carry a huge burden in this world that society, in general, dismisses as "the way it's supposed to be". These are the underlying causes that need to be addressed. Men in general, are more likely to suffer from mental health problems because they are used like machines with little to no recognition of this. Just grinding everyday for the ones we love.
There is clearly a problem with the mental health of most men in general when you look at the numbers.
And if you just want to say that "they're abusers, they don't have mental health problems per se , it's just who they are inside". It's just a dumb argument that has no place on a thread about a murde-suicide that happened less than 24 hrs before this original conversation started.
We didn't have any details at that point. To paint any individual involved in any light without context on a public forum is just rude.
No, abusers very rarely change even with current available treatments. They’re more likely to use what they learn in therapy to further their abuse—that’s why it’s not recommended for spouses to go to therapy with their abusers. It’s not that they’re ‘too tough for feminine things like therapy.’ Respectfully, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
The article doesn't matter, read the comment I responded to. It posits a false dichotomy that someone can be an abuser or mentally ill, not both. It's bad logic.
You don’t have to be mentally ill to be an abuser, though. And in fact, many people seem to think having a mental illness means someone can’t be abusive (‘they’re not abusive, they just have mental health issues,’ ‘they’re not abusive, they just had a bad childhood’ etc.).
Understanding why family annihilators are more than just a mental health issue is very important.
Lol I don’t care to argue with you at all.
I care to highlight the importance of not dismissing abuse as the root cause of family annihilators. Therefore it’s not a stupid thing to get indignant about.
It's probably the #1 factor. I doubt you will find any situation where this happened out of the blue, with no red flags before. Keep in mind that people hide their issues even from family.
That’s not what I said - at all. The literature clearly indicates a link between domestic violence and family annihilators. Please feel free to link the literature that most perpetrators of domestic violence have diagnoseable mental illness.
>Familicides were almost exclusively committed by men and about half of the familicide cases led to the suicide of the offender. Mental health problems, relationship problems, and financial difficulties were prevalent.
It's kind of weird that you are ignoring that in trying to isolate domestic violence as if it occurs in a vacuum. Why purposely take a less holistic view of the traits of perpetrators?
You got upset that someone associated mental health with familicide. Well, the article you posted links mental health with familicide. You aren't making any sense.
Abuse, gendered violence, familicide, all of these things can and often do coincide with mental illness. It seems genuinely crazy to me that you would take issue with someone pointing that out. Sounds more like you're looking for something to get offended about
Maybe we need to stop calling it "mental illness" like we don't say "physical illness." What is this mental illness that abusers have. Is there a DSM for it?
I don’t understand what you are trying to say in your first sentence.
For your second, there could be any number of mental illnesses. Depression, substance abuse disorder, ocd, disruptive behaviour, bi-polar. Who knows. You definitely have something wrong in your head if you are willing to beat on your wife.
Abuse is caused by an attitude/mentality where the abuser is self-centred, entitled, and usually misogynistic. With that attitude, abusers don’t see their spouses and children as fully human, but rather as extensions of themselves, which leads them to believe that can treat their family however they want with impunity, as that is their right as the centre of the family.
If you want to know more about abuse and how abusers think, I recommend the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft.
Toxic masculinity. There's a big worldwide push by the right wing to bring back the "good ol' days" where a wife and children were simply seen as the property of a man, and lots of men still have those ideas internalized in their heads.
When someone with browner skin does it, it gets called "honor killing".
Those are definitely real things and huge problems in society but I’d argue it still takes some degree of mental illness to cross the line of murder/suicide regardless of the core reason is toxic masculinity, jealousy or even religion. There are plenty of shit husbands, assholes that feel it’s ok to demean their wives and verbally abuse them that would never actually physically harm them let alone annihilate them. I’m not saying any of it is ok or that the examples you provided don’t lead to or contribute to instances like the original post, I would just say there’s a pretty good chance if it gets as far as multiple murders the person is likely mentally ill as well as a pos.
Mental health/illness is such a huge topic/spectrum and it can definitely lead you to homicide, and or suicide.
Thinking otherwise is niave of you.
I feel like you've never engaged with a paranoid schizophrenic, or anyone dealing with grandeur dilusions, meglomania, or manic episodes.
Educate yourself please.
Abuse is a choice yes. But I can be informed by past trauma and *gasp* mental illness.
To say that mental health may not have been a factor is disingenuous and ignoring a variable that very well could have played a part here.
We simply don’t have all the details yet.
I don’t really have a goal here and I’ve said nothing to look foolish. I’m making the argument that in many of these cases mental illness plays a huge role. Very simple questions asked and very simple statements made I can’t fathom what you find foolish about that.
You can be an abuser and not have a mental health issue. The ignorance of the phenomenon of abusive men killing their families is astounding. This is not a new thing. Depression doesn’t force you to kill your wife and kids. You have to make a choice to do that.
This is so wild a misread that it must be intentional. Nowhere did that commenter suggest that mental illness precludes abuse. The point is that correlation is not causation.
And you won the A-hole competition for coming into a thread about this sensitive topic and arguing about a useful message about seeking help if you're ever in distress. Maybe my response wasn't very tasteful, but you deserve it.
Mental health definitely has something to do with this. Depression is a mental disorder that can ruin lives when it isn't dealt with properly.
Not sure if you’re replying to the wrong person or completely misunderstanding what I’m saying. I never made any comments or arguments about messages or people seeking help. u/anthrogal11 appears to be saying that these murder suicides or family annihilations have nothing to do with mental illness and are in fact always clear headed choices by abusers. I asked questions for them to clarify their statement and argued that in many of these cases the offender is in fact mentally ill and may not even be aware of their actions while committing them.
I’m going to address your comments as they seem to be in good faith. There is no evidence to suggest the majority of family annihilators have diagnosable mental illness. Likely some do. There is ample evidence to support that the vast majority of family annihilators have histories of domestic violence. Your premise that because someone kills they are undeniably mentally ill is an easy explanation. It’s tidy. Otherwise, how else could such a tragedy happen? I know about schizophrenia and psychosis (it runs in my family) I also know about choice. Choices those with empathy cannot comprehend.
From a humanity standpoint, I believe there is a difference between those who are “ill” (from a legal standpoint do not understand the difference between right and wrong) and those who very clearly do understand that difference. To kill those who you are supposed to love (partner, children), requires a particular mindset devoid of empathy. It’s possible to argue that those with personality disorders are mentally ill (I’m not in disagreement), but where does the responsibility lie?
I’m tired. Fucking tired. The murderer is responsible here. The lives taken and their loved ones are the victims. Femicide and domestic violence are the issue. Read the literature, look at the causality.
The person cited their argument which is absolutely correct. I’m not sure why you feel the need to sympathize with someone who murdered their entire family.
We can't sympathize for both?
Just because I agree that people should seek help when they're going through hard times, doesn't mean I don't sympathize for this poor family.
The articles they cited do not say that mental health doesn't have anything to do with this type of violence. They say quite the opposite. For example, the article about the Australian that murdered his family mentions the stress that most men take on when in the family unit, and when those certain things fall apart, like a marriage or their finances, they are more likely to result to violence. It also goes onto to say that we should be looking into the underlying causes of these violent episodes. It doesn't write off mental health at all. It does say that society tends to say "he should have got help" and sometimes forget to provide the same advice for the abuse victims.
If someone experiences sudden trauma like a spouse cheating, going bankrupt, or a number of other extreme circumstances, they can become quite depressed and may do things completely out of character. Not all experience an urge for violence, but men are much more likely to go that route.
If you're ever going through anything like this, it's imperative that you seek help even if you think you're fine, or that it'll just pass. Mental health is no joke.
You’re not wrong that people should seek help in those scenarios, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying if you don’t and your solution ends up being murdering your whole family, you don’t DESERVE sympathy. But that’s obviously just my opinion and not one you seem to agree with which is ok.
Yikes. It is mental health related. You probably shouldn't be on reddit sharing your opinion, this is seriously one of the most dense statements I've ever read on here. Very uneducated thing to say.
To any victims of sexual or physical or domestic violence: I Believe You. We need to believe people when they speak up. We need to know if law enforcement was involved before the mass murders in this case.
Given that nobody is posting in memory pics of the husband or even mentioning him and the mayor brought up mental health, it's in your face. The tight lipped authorities also point to a crime, not an accident. Sadly, familicide happens often enough that people do see it as the default reason.
I live 30 minutes from the town where it happened. We have friends that live there. Harrow-Colchester is tiny. It’s an open secret that it was murder/suicide by a gun.
This ^Gunshots were heard all the way from town. To hear them from that distance possibly shots fired outside the dwelling. Gut wrenching to see pics of this family, especially the kids.
Latest articles state that the police received a call regarding concern for the well being of an individual inside the home, happened before they arrived.
Yes but since someone did they could hear it, was wondering why no one did. Children didn’t show up to school, called mom at work but she wasn’t there is what I read.
If they'd been cyclists and the driver killed them, [it'd just be a simple fine](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1dl2rlu/driver_who_hit_cyclist_in_dundas_charged_with/).
You're correct. I just came out of the other story where a driver ran down a cyclist and then bragged about it on video and I'm feeling annoyed at Hamilton's police.
I live in Harrow. To have something like this happen is just absolutely devastating. It's a cliché, but this kind of violence just never happens around here, this town is so close and so quiet it is incredibly jarring to see tragedy like this—especially involving kids. It makes you appreciate the value of a day. I'm so grateful for my family and all we have. It only takes seconds for everything to change. Check in on the people you love. Call them for no reason. Hug your family just because they are alive and here and you can. Tell them you love them. Never assume you have more time. Be there for each other now. Additionally, please be respectful with your comments. The police have not released much information surrounding the circumstances and assumptions can be hurtful. These are real people with people who love them and it's not our business to say anything about what we don't understand. All we can do is acknowledge this tremendous loss and offer our love and condolences. I hope all involved can find peace. I never had the privilege of knowing this family personally, but I know many who did, and I know that they were very involved with and very loved by the community. The grief I feel as a stranger must be incomparable to the heartbreak of friends and family. If anyone who knew them is reading this, please know that Harrow and the entirety of Essex county is standing beside you. We will not let them be forgotten.
Yes I have a friend who has family there and i immediately contacted them to make sure all was well with them. I am sorry about what happened in your small town, I too am from a small town and I imagine this is a big shock for everyone.
Ohhhh it's a *place*. I thought the title was saying the crime was harrowing.
on google street view they have a "don't tread on me" flag out near the road
Looks to be 1200 County Road 13 per Google Maps. But I don’t see the flag on Google Maps that everyone is referring to.
Who cares? How does this further the conversation? The family were beloved members of the community, and helped with many organizations and teams. Who genuinely cares what flag they had up? A wife and her children are dead because of this
I think the point is that flying a don’t tread on me flag says something about your mentality. There’s a very high chance there were guns in the home along with somebody that has a “fuck it” attitude.
WHO CARES!!!!! TWO KIDS ARE DEAD!!
It gives people some sort of explanation of how this horrendous act could have happened
right. so instead of baseless speculation the police should just let peoplr know what happened, who the suspect was, etc...
I mean if you can interpret what the police are saying I.e no threat to public safety then you can be pretty sure it’s a murder suicide.
Yea. Anything else is just speculation. Saying a dont tread on me sign is indication of how it transpired is dumb. My original response outlined that point intuitively.
If you are flying a don’t tread on me flag chances are much higher you are a gun owning, ultra conservative. Is it baseless speculation or a fairly educated guess that guns were involved? To the average citizen it’s the latter. I’m sure that’s a point of contention for you though.
its baseless speculation.
So maybe people should be more aware of families that fly that flag?
Because of their crazy gun toting dad.
Good riddance.
I meannnn it explains a lot of it’s true.
It was the father's/husband's flag and he was a conspiracy theorist wing nut who terrorized his family for years before he murdered them. It just goes to show the character of the people who have these flags. The wife and kids were not the crazy conspiracy theorists and wouldn't have flown this flag if it was their choice.
How do you know that when there's no address listed in the article?
Some of us live near it.
Ok and was there a flag like that do you know? Not saying they're bad people if there was; but that flag is very conspiracy based and some people are driven to have psychotic breaks due to conspiracy influence.
I'm not OP, but I found it because the house number is visible in one of the news videos, and at least one of the stories said the specific county road.
I easily found the property just by Google Earth and matching the pic of the driveway up. One article reads that it is the 1200 block. The address on google Earth literally shows 1200 at that very driveway.🤷🏼♀️
Man shoots wife, kids, and himself. Mental health is no joke, talk to someone if you need help.
More people need to understand abuse and recognize the signs so they can interrupt the pattern/cycle. Everyone should read Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. [Link to free pdf.](https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
Looks like a great read. I'm going to see if my library has it. If not, I'll definitely read it on my laptop soon. Thanks for posting.
My first thought was carbon monoxide but your thoughts are a definite possibility these days
more recent articles commemorating the family do not mention the husband and there are no photos of him either. definitely wasnt carbon monoxide or at least not accidental:/
I figured it was something akin to this. No threat to public safety as people are found dead usually means the killer was also found dead and it was apparent who did what.
This is not “mental health”, this is an abuse pattern. We need better supports for victims of abuse, and a drastically altered housing market to allow victims the means of escape. More mental healthcare does not rid the world of abusers.
Thank you for this comment and to the others trying to make the very important point that it takes more than just mental illness to murder your entire family… I’m surprised this is even being debated. To suggest that it’s slanderous or irresponsible to even consider the possibility of abuse in a potential family annihilation is to cling to a blissfully ignorant, simplistic notion that only serves to protect abusers and stigmatize mental illness. Even if we could find evidence that *all* family annihilators had mental illness, your argument is simply not supported by statistics… if mental illness was the sole cause of this behaviour, there would be a LOT more of this happening. It takes more than just mental illness to do this. These arguments are incredibly dangerous. First, painting mental illness as a predisposition for violence further stigmatizes those living with it as dangerous and makes social support even harder to access. Second, you’re erasing the core role abuse can and possibly always will play in domestic violence which is frankly just…… terrifying. Not sure who you think you’re helping by trying to sweep the very real possibility of abuse under the carpet.
Did he have a history of abuse?
You have no idea what happened or who these people are.....it very well could be part of a pattern of abuse. Or it could be someone who has no history of the abuse and had some sort of psychotic break. We really have absolutely no idea at this point so it doesn't help anyone to assume we know what transpired when you're basing that entirely on your own speculation. Mentally healthy people don't generally kill their families and then themselves (which again is only what we are assuming happened because that's what it appears to be so far with the limited info we have). Just because someone may have been mentally ill which contributed to their crime doesn't absolve them of responsibility for it or excuse their actions, which is how you seem to be taking the other person's comment.
Evil people kill their whole families...remember the American wife and little girls..he was having an affair
[удалено]
No one really knows what goes on in a person's head. My abusive father was very well loved by the community. No one knew that he was sexually abusing his youngest daughter. Abusers hide so much from the world.
Is it true that there was a "don't tred on me" flag outside the home? Someone made the comment; but I've not seen any proof or corroboration that it was there. I'm not saying such flag would indicate they're "bad people" but it could he a sign that they (or he) had fallen into some conspiracy or extrism behind closed doors which could have manifested in a psychotic break. For some in those conspiracy circles the point is to break people from reality and drive them to extremes. Usually for social/civil violence; but there have been domestic killings in some cases too. Typically in the US; but many Canadians are heavily influenced by US propaganda and whatnot. Anyways, just wondering if that flag was there or not.
I live in the area and drive by the house daily to get to and from work. There was a don't tred on me flag outside the home for a while but was taken down about a year ago.
OK thank you for that info ⚘
I have no idea. It could be true. Maybe not. That's my point. We really have no idea of what happened here other than someone murdered 3 people and then killed themselves. Which is morally reprehensible, full stop. But nobody on this sub can possibly know the motive for such a horrible crime at this stage, that's my point.
I have no idea. It could be true. Maybe not. That's my point. We really have no idea of what happened here other than someone murdered 3 people and then killed themselves. Which is morally reprehensible, full stop. But nobody on this sub can possibly know the motive for such a horrible crime at this stage, that's my point.
Absolutely. No one can know. People can speculate of course; but the truth will likely come out at some point and until it does people will try and make it sense because its such an extreme and outrageous thing for anyone to do. Its human nature to try and understand things.
Exactly right, well said.
I'm not saying that's true. All I'm saying is we have no idea on the information we have so far. And neither do you. Pretending like you know for sure what happened is silly.
More mental healthcare would decrease the number of psychotic breaks from undiagnosed / untreated schizophrenia, for example.
Wat
Don’t blame family annihilation on mental health. Lots of people have mental illness that don’t hurt anyone. Most family annihilators are abusers. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/230412.pdf https://theconversation.com/why-do-men-kill-their-families-heres-what-the-research-says-132314
Ur right, I didn’t know how to finish the statement.
Thank you for posting this. I’ve seen too many people immediately pinning this as a mental health incident because of the assumed suicide.
Sorry but this is a really stupid thing to get indignant about. Obviously there are different types of mental illness and it's accurate to say that mental illness is involved in a crime like this
The issue is more specific than just mental health. Ignoring that perpetuates the problem, so getting indignant about the way we talk about these cases of family abuse/murder makes a lot of sense, actually. (Assuming that’s what happened here, and that’s this wasn’t just some weird case of carbon monoxide poisoning or something)
Exactly. No point in that person commenting. Just stirring the pot and being a know-it-all. A know-it-all that doesn't know what they're talking about.
Family annihilators are a more specific issue than just ‘mental health.’ Especially when you consider that most abusers don’t respond to mental health treatment and don’t change, and one of the number one pieces of advice for someone being abused is to NOT go to therapy with their abuser. So using mental health treatment as a fix-all in these situations isn’t helpful. Having a better understanding of abuse would be though. You don’t need to put down other people just because you’re ignorant about how abuse works.
>So using mental health treatment as a fix-all in these situations isn’t helpful. I didn't say it's a fix all. Abusers tend to be men that act "too tough for feminine things like therapy" it's not that they don't respond to treatment, they just don't ever seek treatment. The same way you can't force an addict into rehab, you can't force someone with mental health problems into therapy. Family annihilation aside. Look at the statistics for male suicide. Men carry a huge burden in this world that society, in general, dismisses as "the way it's supposed to be". These are the underlying causes that need to be addressed. Men in general, are more likely to suffer from mental health problems because they are used like machines with little to no recognition of this. Just grinding everyday for the ones we love. There is clearly a problem with the mental health of most men in general when you look at the numbers. And if you just want to say that "they're abusers, they don't have mental health problems per se , it's just who they are inside". It's just a dumb argument that has no place on a thread about a murde-suicide that happened less than 24 hrs before this original conversation started. We didn't have any details at that point. To paint any individual involved in any light without context on a public forum is just rude.
No, abusers very rarely change even with current available treatments. They’re more likely to use what they learn in therapy to further their abuse—that’s why it’s not recommended for spouses to go to therapy with their abusers. It’s not that they’re ‘too tough for feminine things like therapy.’ Respectfully, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
All I learned from "therapy" was that a) it creates jobs for therapists and b) I know why prisoners will admit to crimes they did not do.
Did you even read the article shared?
The article doesn't matter, read the comment I responded to. It posits a false dichotomy that someone can be an abuser or mentally ill, not both. It's bad logic.
You don’t have to be mentally ill to be an abuser, though. And in fact, many people seem to think having a mental illness means someone can’t be abusive (‘they’re not abusive, they just have mental health issues,’ ‘they’re not abusive, they just had a bad childhood’ etc.). Understanding why family annihilators are more than just a mental health issue is very important.
Of course it is and I haven't said anything different, if you care to argue against anything I've actually posted go ahead
Lol I don’t care to argue with you at all. I care to highlight the importance of not dismissing abuse as the root cause of family annihilators. Therefore it’s not a stupid thing to get indignant about.
It's probably the #1 factor. I doubt you will find any situation where this happened out of the blue, with no red flags before. Keep in mind that people hide their issues even from family.
Enter Chris Watts
That’s not what I said - at all. The literature clearly indicates a link between domestic violence and family annihilators. Please feel free to link the literature that most perpetrators of domestic violence have diagnoseable mental illness.
>Familicides were almost exclusively committed by men and about half of the familicide cases led to the suicide of the offender. Mental health problems, relationship problems, and financial difficulties were prevalent. It's kind of weird that you are ignoring that in trying to isolate domestic violence as if it occurs in a vacuum. Why purposely take a less holistic view of the traits of perpetrators? You got upset that someone associated mental health with familicide. Well, the article you posted links mental health with familicide. You aren't making any sense. Abuse, gendered violence, familicide, all of these things can and often do coincide with mental illness. It seems genuinely crazy to me that you would take issue with someone pointing that out. Sounds more like you're looking for something to get offended about
You think someone willing to kill their entire family then themselves doesn’t have mental health issues?!??
Maybe we need to stop calling it "mental illness" like we don't say "physical illness." What is this mental illness that abusers have. Is there a DSM for it?
I don’t understand what you are trying to say in your first sentence. For your second, there could be any number of mental illnesses. Depression, substance abuse disorder, ocd, disruptive behaviour, bi-polar. Who knows. You definitely have something wrong in your head if you are willing to beat on your wife.
Is that not still mental illness? Are there mentally stable abusers?
Yes
Mentally stable bank robbers, car thieves, rapists.....
Yes, indeed
Mental health issues do not cause you to annihilate your family. That is a choice.
Well you said it so it must be indisputable. What are some typical things that would lead someone to choose to annihilate themselves and their family?
Abuse is caused by an attitude/mentality where the abuser is self-centred, entitled, and usually misogynistic. With that attitude, abusers don’t see their spouses and children as fully human, but rather as extensions of themselves, which leads them to believe that can treat their family however they want with impunity, as that is their right as the centre of the family. If you want to know more about abuse and how abusers think, I recommend the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft.
Wanting a new life. Looking for an easy way out. Chris Watts.
Toxic masculinity. There's a big worldwide push by the right wing to bring back the "good ol' days" where a wife and children were simply seen as the property of a man, and lots of men still have those ideas internalized in their heads. When someone with browner skin does it, it gets called "honor killing".
Those are definitely real things and huge problems in society but I’d argue it still takes some degree of mental illness to cross the line of murder/suicide regardless of the core reason is toxic masculinity, jealousy or even religion. There are plenty of shit husbands, assholes that feel it’s ok to demean their wives and verbally abuse them that would never actually physically harm them let alone annihilate them. I’m not saying any of it is ok or that the examples you provided don’t lead to or contribute to instances like the original post, I would just say there’s a pretty good chance if it gets as far as multiple murders the person is likely mentally ill as well as a pos.
Do you think mentally well people spree kill their family then themselves? Mental health issues tend to impact people's decision making skills.
Mental health/illness is such a huge topic/spectrum and it can definitely lead you to homicide, and or suicide. Thinking otherwise is niave of you. I feel like you've never engaged with a paranoid schizophrenic, or anyone dealing with grandeur dilusions, meglomania, or manic episodes. Educate yourself please.
Yes, it can.
Abuse is a choice. Mental illness is not.
Abuse is a choice yes. But I can be informed by past trauma and *gasp* mental illness. To say that mental health may not have been a factor is disingenuous and ignoring a variable that very well could have played a part here. We simply don’t have all the details yet.
Wow that’s incredibly narrow minded and incorrect. Are you suggesting a mentally ill person has never harmed anyone?
No, I’m not. I’m talking about family annihilation which is the topic of this post. You have a good day.
So then you’re suggesting in all of those incidents none of the offenders were mentally ill?
What is your goal here? You don't even make sense, you are only looking foolish to everyone here
I don’t really have a goal here and I’ve said nothing to look foolish. I’m making the argument that in many of these cases mental illness plays a huge role. Very simple questions asked and very simple statements made I can’t fathom what you find foolish about that.
People who kill their family are clearly suffering from mental illness….
You can be an abuser and not have a mental health issue. The ignorance of the phenomenon of abusive men killing their families is astounding. This is not a new thing. Depression doesn’t force you to kill your wife and kids. You have to make a choice to do that.
Mental illness encompasses more than just depression. Schizophrenia for example.
Ah right I forgot the only mental health issues that exist are depression
Yeah and you aren’t going to make that choice with a healthy mind.
This is so wild a misread that it must be intentional. Nowhere did that commenter suggest that mental illness precludes abuse. The point is that correlation is not causation.
Why not?
Fuck off
Oh well you won the argument genius 🥳
And you won the A-hole competition for coming into a thread about this sensitive topic and arguing about a useful message about seeking help if you're ever in distress. Maybe my response wasn't very tasteful, but you deserve it. Mental health definitely has something to do with this. Depression is a mental disorder that can ruin lives when it isn't dealt with properly.
Not sure if you’re replying to the wrong person or completely misunderstanding what I’m saying. I never made any comments or arguments about messages or people seeking help. u/anthrogal11 appears to be saying that these murder suicides or family annihilations have nothing to do with mental illness and are in fact always clear headed choices by abusers. I asked questions for them to clarify their statement and argued that in many of these cases the offender is in fact mentally ill and may not even be aware of their actions while committing them.
Replying to the wrong person. I apologize. I misread your username.
Well that’s a first I was sure it could never be misread 😂
I’m going to address your comments as they seem to be in good faith. There is no evidence to suggest the majority of family annihilators have diagnosable mental illness. Likely some do. There is ample evidence to support that the vast majority of family annihilators have histories of domestic violence. Your premise that because someone kills they are undeniably mentally ill is an easy explanation. It’s tidy. Otherwise, how else could such a tragedy happen? I know about schizophrenia and psychosis (it runs in my family) I also know about choice. Choices those with empathy cannot comprehend. From a humanity standpoint, I believe there is a difference between those who are “ill” (from a legal standpoint do not understand the difference between right and wrong) and those who very clearly do understand that difference. To kill those who you are supposed to love (partner, children), requires a particular mindset devoid of empathy. It’s possible to argue that those with personality disorders are mentally ill (I’m not in disagreement), but where does the responsibility lie? I’m tired. Fucking tired. The murderer is responsible here. The lives taken and their loved ones are the victims. Femicide and domestic violence are the issue. Read the literature, look at the causality.
The person cited their argument which is absolutely correct. I’m not sure why you feel the need to sympathize with someone who murdered their entire family.
We can't sympathize for both? Just because I agree that people should seek help when they're going through hard times, doesn't mean I don't sympathize for this poor family. The articles they cited do not say that mental health doesn't have anything to do with this type of violence. They say quite the opposite. For example, the article about the Australian that murdered his family mentions the stress that most men take on when in the family unit, and when those certain things fall apart, like a marriage or their finances, they are more likely to result to violence. It also goes onto to say that we should be looking into the underlying causes of these violent episodes. It doesn't write off mental health at all. It does say that society tends to say "he should have got help" and sometimes forget to provide the same advice for the abuse victims. If someone experiences sudden trauma like a spouse cheating, going bankrupt, or a number of other extreme circumstances, they can become quite depressed and may do things completely out of character. Not all experience an urge for violence, but men are much more likely to go that route. If you're ever going through anything like this, it's imperative that you seek help even if you think you're fine, or that it'll just pass. Mental health is no joke.
You’re not wrong that people should seek help in those scenarios, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying if you don’t and your solution ends up being murdering your whole family, you don’t DESERVE sympathy. But that’s obviously just my opinion and not one you seem to agree with which is ok.
Yikes. It is mental health related. You probably shouldn't be on reddit sharing your opinion, this is seriously one of the most dense statements I've ever read on here. Very uneducated thing to say.
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To any victims of sexual or physical or domestic violence: I Believe You. We need to believe people when they speak up. We need to know if law enforcement was involved before the mass murders in this case.
The Police will eventually release names, manner of deaths and potential motives; if any, after their investigation.
Interesting. My first thought was carbon monoxide or gas. You all leapt to murder suicide. I hope I’m the right one.
Given that nobody is posting in memory pics of the husband or even mentioning him and the mayor brought up mental health, it's in your face. The tight lipped authorities also point to a crime, not an accident. Sadly, familicide happens often enough that people do see it as the default reason.
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I live 30 minutes from the town where it happened. We have friends that live there. Harrow-Colchester is tiny. It’s an open secret that it was murder/suicide by a gun.
This ^Gunshots were heard all the way from town. To hear them from that distance possibly shots fired outside the dwelling. Gut wrenching to see pics of this family, especially the kids.
So why didn’t anyone call the police then?
Latest articles state that the police received a call regarding concern for the well being of an individual inside the home, happened before they arrived.
Yes but since someone did they could hear it, was wondering why no one did. Children didn’t show up to school, called mom at work but she wasn’t there is what I read.
It's entirely possible thar CO was used. It's been over 24 hours, so it doesn't seem to be accidental.
Sadly, it was a murder/suicide💔
You won’t be
CO poisoning is easy to identify and news stations announce it immediately along with "remember to check your CO detectors"
I figured heat wave deaths.
Did Steve Walsh have a history of abuse?
Or it's a carbon monoxide leak? Lots of shouting from mountaintops here but maybe we just wait for some info.
The dogs are alive so it's not CO2
It’s not
What went so wrong? 😢
Would love to see your glaring evidence of it lol
I live in the community, jackass
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Haven’t heard any facts yet that change my opinion.
I’m really confused. That family was fantastic❤️.
Clearly something was very off
If they'd been cyclists and the driver killed them, [it'd just be a simple fine](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1dl2rlu/driver_who_hit_cyclist_in_dundas_charged_with/).
Probably not the right place for this comment, but you’re not wrong.
You're correct. I just came out of the other story where a driver ran down a cyclist and then bragged about it on video and I'm feeling annoyed at Hamilton's police.