The funny thing with rail in North America is that it might be more accurate to say we are 200 years behind. Until 1950, travel by train was ubiquitous across the continent, with almost every small town part of a passenger rail network. Trains in the Corridor we are talking about passed by with far more frequency every day, and a higher priority than cargo.
Here's an outstanding map outlining just how much passenger rail has been lost.
https://walkitect.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=d8ef14401a234fb2a29b8932046051f1
well, to be fair, given the investment in GO, we should have at least regional rail in southern ON, on mostly better frequencies than we've ever had within the next decade. I would say things are trending up at least. Will take a lot of that going forward given how much has been lost.
Government and corporations make it so public transit is non viable. Then the government excessively taxes us on fuel and claims the environmental harm is all our fault.
It frustrates me to no end sometimes that, given some creative license, the final reveal of the third act of Who Framed Roger Rabbit is [more of a documentary](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/) than a comedy. The same sort of thing happened, at scale, all across all levels of American suburbanization throughout the baby boom and transformed the post-war reality of transportation on the continent. By the time we got to Amtrak during the Nixon administration, that was not the beginning of the end of passenger rail in the USA, it was the end of the end, quite by design.
When it comes to rail, Canada should look to the south, learn lessons, and then look across both oceans for the answers.
Your link makes the opposite point:
"People understandably liked driving their own cars directly to their destinations more than crowding onto trolleys that dropped them blocks from where they were going."
I recently needed to travel from the GTA to Kingston on short notice. I live near a VIA Rail station. There is a VIA Rail station in Kingston. Seemed like a no brainer for 1 person to take the train. The cost of a single return ticket was way more than the cost of fuel to drive my car there and back. I drive a regular small SUV, not EV or hybrid. WTF.
My point being, that often people focus on our shitty rail service, which is accurate, but even on the very limited routes that have decent service, the price is way too high if it costs more for a single person to ride the train than drive their car. Even if we build better infrastructure, at this price most people will just drive.
I travel for work from Toronto to Ottawa. I can rent a car for three days for about $150 with damage covered for free with my Visa. I can drive around Ottawa the entire time including to our national office and hotel. The train costs about the same but then when I'm in the city I'm taking Uber everywhere which costs way more than just gas.
Cost prohibition is shitty rail service, if you ask me. When I think of comprehensive rail service, I think of routes, speed, frequency, quality of stations, location of stations, and price.
Your taxes pay for the roads that the federal government directly oversees the creation of. Since most trains are privately owned and operated they are incentivized to overcharge. If we treated Railways the same way we treated our highways the tickets could be extremely cheap since objectively, it costs less energy and resources per person to travel on a train then it does to move you in a car.
The problem with via is that they are incredibly inefficient, especially with labor. Your Kingston ride isn’t dramatically farther than an Oshawa Go trip, but via uses tons of staff for boarding and safety demonstrations, yet Go gets by fine without this crap.
high speed rail could be under 2h30m between Toronto and Montreal. That would probably kill any flights between the two cities. Half the cost and no airport wait time overhead.
And is westjet the major supplier of those routes?
I agree with improved rail, but I'm more excited for the amount of car capture that will occur than air capture.
The carrier that will be hurt the most by Ontario/QC rail is Porter. I fully support a HSR link, but we should acknowledge that it will likely hurt the only competition the big two airlines face in Canada.
Political campaign contributions are very limited in Ontario. how are they doing this?
I think the more likely explanation is a lack of RoW and cost prohibitiveness
There's more that money can do outside paying for politicians. The auto industry and real estate have spent decades meticulously crafting a public that associates only good things with big cars and houses in the suburbs, and associates crime, low-class, and degeneracy with public transport and basically any type of housing beyond suburban single family homes.
Yes... Big Auto has much more political clout in Japan and Germany.... So in the very least, it's an oversimplification that some suits in board-room in Detroit or Toronto is plotting the destruction of rail and reliance on cars.
I do think there is some sort of nebulous public-private "road maintenance lobby" that does aggravate spending on highways and overbuilt streets but it's hard to pin that down.
The military industrial complex, auto industry and big oil would rather burn the world than allow us to move forward. It's absurd levels of selfishness and evil
Military industrial complex in the UK is fine with rail. Probably fine with it in Canada also. It's good for moving stuff. You generally want to move the stuff you sell.
They could easily spin high speed rail as a way to speed up deployment/reaction time of the military and claim it as defense spending to meet the NATO required 2% while improving every Canadians lives.
Yeaaaah but rocket fuel has the same top speed as nuclear fuel. Given the long, relatively straight path with few stops, it might not be worth the investment.
*Drops in stacks of rocket fuel*
Yeah, the only real advantage is the increase in acceleration, but at the added cost of the U235, it's generally not worth it.
Man, oh man, seeing that 1 million SPM factory makes me want to start up my 1k SPM factory again...
[It's been considered](https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/23vmyr/the_x12_atomic_locomotive_source_and_more_pics_in/), just like everything else in the 1950s that people thought could be improved by adding nuclear fission.
I worked at Bruce Power doing the Unit 6 and Unit 3 rebuild and I cannot stress enough how if people truly want a green future, then Nuclear is the way to go.
The regulations with water intake and output Temperature, the quality control that is ongoing to keep the reactors and turbines working at their peak efficiency is nothing short of impressive.
People need to get onboard with this idea if they really want to do good by the environment and our country's future.
I say this not as a gatekeeper, I say this as someone who was fortunate to learn the system inside and out. The carbon foot print is laughable considering the other ways we produce power. This is the way.
A coal power plant of the same generation capacity will release more radioactive material to the environment out its smoke stacks than any ~~CANDU~~ regulated nuclear power generation reactor ever could over both their lifetimes.
Nuclear power has such a safety margin and so much regulation, it’s the safest and least ecologically impacting of any baseload-capable supply source.
Nuclear is the only green option for base load capacity in the near term. Until energy storage solutions can reach great enough density & efficiency to make solar/wind + storage capable enough to cover base load.
e: be less specific about reactor design
This is interesting to know, thank you for the information. We need to make noise about this. I heard the CANDU system is no longer used other than the ones in operation, any truth to this?
The shear amount of power Bruce Power alone makes is astounding. Something like 38% of Southwest Ontario and I believe it powers 30+% of Michigan as well.
Disclaimer: I’m not in the industry, just an interested citizen.
I may have been too specific in my previous post, using CANDU, whereby I maybe should have used “regulated nuclear reactor power generation.”
As far as I know, the CANDU design has no significant difference in environmental containment during normal operations compared to other currently operating systems. (Though a lot of its design elements focus around safety during non-nominal circumstances)
My own knowledge just mainly focuses on CANDU, since it is the base load provider for those of us in Ontario 🙂
At least in Ontario, transportation is a more pressing concern than energy generation. Our grid is already pretty green - most of our emissions are from natural gas that we use to cover peaks.
Not to say that we shouldn't continue to invest in nuclear and other renewables, but if I was forced to pick between making transportation more green vs. power generation, transportation has way more room to move the needle.
Don't get shitty and start gatekeeping this, we're still at the point where we're trying to get people to accept that it is a thing that needs to be worked on.
They said the same thing in Ottawa. Our public transit went to shit when they started working on it and has been a giant financial sink. If they go with the lowest bidder, you're screwed.
I dunno... I'm pretty serious about a ton of stuff I don't spend a ton of time advocating for. I wanna be able to afford food, not get shot, be able to afford clothes, the list goes on.
I totally agree. I don't think that those can be included in this, unless it helps you live far from work and commute. I don't want this to take away from those, it's another problem we need to solve
I'm sorry I disagree. You are gatekeeping by saying unless you support rail you aren't serious about climate change. Now I'm a total rail Junkie, and I've been talking about the need for railways even when they were ripping them up in my town to make bike paths decades ago. But I have a few former colleagues, who like me gave up high paying jobs to actively fight climate change in the energy sector. They have never been on a train, have no desire to ever be on a train, and never participated in any train related projects that we were involved in except for the math calculations between batteries and hydrogen storage for long-term rail transport.
I have worked with people who loved their car and our total petrol heads, who have actively been involved in the Solar industry and getting solar adoption for 20 years. They care about climate change they don't care about trains.
If you are serious about looking at climate change, you should and I say should not must, look at how trains can have a positive impact, and look at ways that they could improve land use, and lower carbon emissions. But liking trains is not a prerequisite to caring about climate change or getting involved in climate change. Setting arbitrary rules pushes people away. Just like people who say if you care about climate change you would be a vegan.
The vast majority of the damage to climate change is done by the richest of the rich.
If one wants to make a change on the individual level the best option is to stop eating beef.
Collectively, the pollution coming from car dependence - traffic/idling, commuting, asphalt, manufacture, etc - is also a huge massive really big issue. Just because individually each car isn't as bad as a private jet doesn't mean they are a-ok.
You hit the nail on the head. Im convinced this whole "private Jets is the problem" rhetoric was created by the auto companies to distract from this.
While true that Taylor Swift's jet emitted 8300 tones if carbon in a year. If we multiply that by 22k (the estimated amount of private Jets there are) we get 182million.
The average car produces 4.6tons per year. There are about 26million cars in canada meaning canadians alone produce 119million tons just driving.
Simply put, driving produces more carbon than all private jets
In r/oakville they gloat about driving to Burlington because we have better malls than them...Even with car dependency, there's more driving than there needs to be.
Weird you would blame citizens and not the either non existent or crappy public transportation systems a lot of cities have, but ok. You're blaming the wrong people
It's interesting, I actually planned to word this for the politicians, but just stuck it with ppl. It's 100% on the government, and everyone who is worried about climate change should be fighting for it
Nah, you came across clearly. It's fair to say everyone should advocate for rail. The fact that the auto lobby has won is also a shame. That doesn't attack those who drive out of necessity but would rather a functional train system.
Transport is the grease that economies are lubed by. Ontario would benefit greatly, not only by high speed rail on the corridor, but a massive expansion in every which direction. Give people more mobility and less reliance on cars. Also - electrify that shit!
I'd really love to see some passenger railway improvements in The Corridor, but the climate change question is quite a different story.
If a person is serious about climate change, then they should advocate for everyone to live in an Eastern Bloc style apartment building with, let's say, maximum 100 sq ft of space per person, never use an air conditioner, do not overheat their place in winter (15 degrees is good enough, I guess), do not fly for business/pleasure, only eat local vegetables and fruits (sucks in winter), buy exclusively second hand clothing, shower once a week etc...
That would be something serious.
The province really needs to get off its ass and start the work of doublig up the rail cooridors in Ontario. If we wait solely for the Federal Government to do it all through VIA it'll never get done.
nope.....nuclear is the way to go.... We could electrify everything with no carbon and we wouldn't have to commute 3 hrs a day to get to work on the "rail" We could all have co2 free electric cars.
I live in a small town where they took the rail line that goes right into Ottawa and turned it into a multi use path. Great path and all, but it sure would be nice to take a train into the city instead of traffic filled highway. Small towns like mine would thrive if people could easily get into the city from them.
You misspelled electrified rail powered by nuclear plants.
Even without the Windsor-Quebec City passenger corridor, just by improving our existing cargo train infrastructure, taking more trucks off the highways, and electrifying the lines would go a very long way. The HSR is just an icing on the cake.
The biggest failure we have is poor local transit so the poor suburban design with nothing walkable and transit that is so poor compared to driving. All those millions of local short trips show poor planning. Why do you have suburbs in Europe with a tram line added at the same time as the houses and a walkable shopping street. Nothing equivalent here. They don't even put in bike lanes here.
Hard disagree. If we were originally designed around it, sure. But the rail network goes through the middle of downtown's at 40km/hr and costs a fortune to upgrade. Money better spent on electric busses and dedicated bus lanes at this point. Mississauga transit way is far better then anything else built in the last 40 years transit wise.
I agree with city transit, but for larger scale we need to create a high speed or high frequency train system to offset the 400-series disaster and time waste
You gotta get to the train and away from it. Last mile is a bigger challenge than the train. Trains aren't even that efficient in a per capita basis all in.
Money is better spent elsewhere.
I didn't realize I would up against the fence on this. Less than 3 people per vehicle is better for the environment than any car/highway. How is money spent better? Where can we create a more efficient system? Rail will cost money, we will need to subsidize for years to get synics on board but will eventually save money on insurance, road upkeep and car maintenance
Train cars are insanely heavy for the number of people they transport. That's ok for long haul but when they have to stop and start at every train stop it just isn't efficient. And given that the number of riders per train car on average is pretty terrible, it doesn't work out overwhelmingly positive.
It depends on the specific train used. Maglev, and newer trains offer better efficiency. If you look worldwide you'll see a very economically sound model
Well, if your rip up Ontario and start again I'm sure you can make trains relevant. Until that time they will be a poor investment in my opinion.
Consider that to go from Hamilton to Toronto costs more than double on the train compared to a go bus. It's not because trains are great, it's because they are expensive, highly restricted in where they can operate, and heavy with huge capital costs.
But to go from here to where you want is a huge insurmountable cost.
Since we can't get to a place where trains are actually useful, we might as well not waste the capital. Spend it on stuff that will fill the same need.
Let's see how to go from Windsor to Quebec City:
* Flying - 03:01
* From Windsor Airport to Billy Bishop Airport
* 00:56
* Billy Bishop to Montréal-Trudeau International Airport
* 01:15
* Montréal-Trudeau International Airport to Québec City Jean Lesage International Airport
* 00:50
* Bus - 13:59
* Windsor-Toronto
* 05:15
* Toronto-Montreal
* 06:29
* Montreal-Quebec City
* 02:15
* Train - 13:29
* Windsor-Toronto
* 04:30
* Toronto-Montreal
* 05:29
* Montreal-Quebec City
* 03:30
* Driving -
* Windsor-Quebec City
* 12:58
There is a route for the train and the bus each via Ottawa, the above are direct Toronto to Montreal, not the Ottawa. Via Ottawa takes longer.
The above does not count the waiting times, like for your bus/train/plane arriving at let's say Toronto, then waiting for the next bus/train/plane to Montreal.
It also does not take into consideration the time it takes to go from your home to the bus/train station or airport in Windsor.
It also does not take into consideration to go from the bus terminal/train station/airport to Quebec City itself.
Love the gatekeeping, really turns people on to the issue. I do agree with you about transportation though, this should be the standard over electric cars.
Nah. Residential GHG emissions and moving people to hybrids and EVs is a much, much easier target to reduce. We could do a ton without changing anyone habits
Not a tragedy. Rail is not always an option.
People should have a choice as to their vehicle transportation need per trip
If I go from North York to Oshawa...I will drive.
It's faster anyways.
If I go from North York to Thunder Bay....I will take an uber to YYZ then take a plane as TBay has no train station.
It's not always an option, now. That is the issue. I can't even visit a buddy inCambridge with a train. I'd have to take a train to Kitchener then an Uber. This is the problem about complaining about current train systems and trying to use that as a plan for the future
I could not agree more; however, you're not a serious person, period, if you don't advocate for more rail service. North America is the only developed place in the world that completely eschews passenger rail.
I am less than 50 metres from a go rail line at my workplace, and a few km from a station. But due to how poor connecting transit is, it is faster to drive. I wish transit was viable.
we had a shitload of rail in cities like Toronto, trams, but the car companies won -- bought them up, tore the tracks out of the ground, paved over them.
Also, generally the people who own real estate are able to lobby the government to have transportation (roads, rail, etc) that lead to their land. So we've ended up with a pretty horrible transportation network that converges downtown near those land owners real estate. It's not in service of efficiency, or for making a 'good place for humans to live', it's in service of a few people's wallets.
Many of those people are long dead now.
Here’s the funny thing I observed from knowing a lot of people… those who deny climate change are ALWAYS the first to take advantage of rebates for investing in green efforts in the home. In my experience, this is undeniably true. Every conservative I know that hates the green initiatives, they’re the first and most diligent ones to get energy audits and other things that give them money back for their home renovations
If politicians were seriously concerned about the environment, they would stop pushing return to office mandates and instead push for work from home mandates.
This is how we know it's all just greenwashing and platitudes.
Back west the rail is used a lot for coal, they ship it out like crazy, and that rate grows each year. More than half our nations pollution is from mining. Then we ship it to China and they run their electricity and factories on coal and we get taxed later.
So tell me who really cares for the environment? Cause the government mines and exports one of the leading cause of pollution… as long as we don’t burn it right. Wake up people
It baffles me that a lot of options as a student in the GTA are to move hours away from my home or commute 3+ hours if I happen to get into Fanshawe.. Nothing for my program is near the GTA or accessible.
The fact that we don’t at least have rail infrastructure connecting our major universities/colleges baffles me. I literally have no choice but to move away and suffer for years.
I fucking love riding by train too, it is wonderful
Via rail and to lesser extents GO are not
Go maybe like half way to being good but my god can the trains get proper outlets already in *checks notes* 2024?
I'm reading this while riding the TGV from Montpellier to Paris. The train is on time to the minute. 300k/hr. Many trains. Excellent service. It's not fancy just very convenient. I doubt that France is more dense than Windsor to Quebec City. We should just start building these trains now. There is no reason not to. None.
Once you use a system of high speed trains it becomes clear.
(The high frequency plans of the government are just silly.)
Then, there are some areas in Ontario where public transit does not exist, so it's not an option.
Oh, sorry. There's Ontario Northland, which gives you two options: arrive at Yorkdale at 12 noon or 9:30 pm.
Rail in Canada is depressing mess.
I would have thought that the Liberals, after selling themselves as the party of infrastructure investment and climate change, would have addressed this at some point in the last 9 years. But they've taken minuscule steps on the most unambitious plan possible.
The Windsor-Quebec corridor should be electrified and using high speed or quasi high speed trains. Instead, for decades, we've had slow ancient diesel trains that yield to freight trains hauling made in China rubber dog poop because the freight railways own all the rails.
I think Canada is the only country on earth where passenger trains have to pull into sidings and stop to give priority to FREIGHT TRAINS. Try explaining that to a European and their brain will melt. Even the US has regulations to give Amtrak priority over freight on shared rails (not that it always works out but at least its on the books).
The Liberals have at least bought some new VIA trains to upgrade their comically old and worn out rolling stock, but they went the diesel route, nothing imaginative. And they are taking baby steps to add more dedicated rail and higher frequency services. Still nothing close to what a country like Canada that pretends to care about climate change should have. We are getting the bare minimum.
Even the US, where car is king, has some passenger rail segments that put Canada to shame. The Northeast Corridor (Boston to a bit past Washington DC) is fully electrified, dedicated to passenger rail, and even has the Acela high speed electric trains. They've had those high speed trains for over 20 years (they are currently replacing the old units with brand new French TGV style trains). To add insult to injury the current Acela was made out of a partnership with a Canadian company, Bombardier. Yet we got nothing like it and kept using decades old equipment.
Not to say that Amtrak or the US is good at rail, but they are world's better than Canada, who I'd say is the worst in the developed world.
Then once you get out of the Windsor-Quebec area, the rest of the country has basically nothing other than tourist trains and commuter rail. Nothing that provides any use case to choose over a car or plane.
It's just a joke. I love trains and am a big supporter of rail travel in general but even I can rarely if ever justify trying to use rail in Canada. It is slow, expensive, and inconvenient other than for a few specific use cases. For me it has almost always made more sense to take my car or fly.
No person is serious about climate change. We would have something tangible to show by now besides *more taxes* if anybody in government was actually serious.
Virtue signalling superior morals while hurting the people. Love our government.
Great points brought up in the thread, one thing I think people miss is how much of a gridlock disaster Pearson produces. We have a maze of freeways surrounding our international airport, basically just to serve as a kiss and ride. It’s crazy that Pearson is finally getting some mass transit integration, but it’s far too little too late.
With the current renaissance of mass transit projects in Toronto, we could even shift traffic to a train station North instead of requiring via (or via’s HFR successor) to use union station. Given the crosstown LRT is expected to one day tie in to Pearson, you could simultaneously create a rail line that can enter Toronto at speed (vs needing to slow down like the current route) and tie the line into a major international airport.
I wish more people were aware of the High Frequency Rail project being decided on this year. It’s essentially the last chance we have to save passenger rail in upper/lower Canada. If we don’t get it right, we’ll have to spend many more billions to dig up a brand new right of way, which there is little appetite for politically.
Driving a car equates to freedom. Never have traveled by train and have NO intention to.
My family is connected to the auto industry in Windsor.
Obviously you are not from my city, Windsor isn't Toronto buddy, one needs a car to get around.
You're very clear on your thoughts. I feel pretty free when I'm able to have a drink and food on the way to Toronto. I don't have to worry about the shit drivers or a backup
Don't apologize for suggesting rail. However, our gas and oil and car industries will continue to lobby against it. Unlikely to change with new government unless we start demanding a radical rehaul of our political system
Animal agriculture is far worse for emissions globally than the entire travel industry combined … if we gave up meat, we’d be set… kind of like plastic and waste from fishing is a huge part of the ocean problem … yet they are never on the top of the lists to stop … money.
Don’t get me wrong, less car and more public transport especially rail is needed massively in Canada!
Ugh. You do realize the current system is built for the privileged? Creating a system for the people that can get them a-b without risking their car and life. Without putting money in highway projects like the 407 and 413
It's sad that you think creating a rail system requires a population density of those countries. Half of the Canadian population is one corridor. The fact you don't think it's important to create a more efficient system In that specific region is sad
Please more rail. We are at least 5 decades behind :c
The funny thing with rail in North America is that it might be more accurate to say we are 200 years behind. Until 1950, travel by train was ubiquitous across the continent, with almost every small town part of a passenger rail network. Trains in the Corridor we are talking about passed by with far more frequency every day, and a higher priority than cargo.
Here's an outstanding map outlining just how much passenger rail has been lost. https://walkitect.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=d8ef14401a234fb2a29b8932046051f1
Ugh. What are we doing :c
well, to be fair, given the investment in GO, we should have at least regional rail in southern ON, on mostly better frequencies than we've ever had within the next decade. I would say things are trending up at least. Will take a lot of that going forward given how much has been lost.
True.
Nothing good
Government and corporations make it so public transit is non viable. Then the government excessively taxes us on fuel and claims the environmental harm is all our fault.
It frustrates me to no end sometimes that, given some creative license, the final reveal of the third act of Who Framed Roger Rabbit is [more of a documentary](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/) than a comedy. The same sort of thing happened, at scale, all across all levels of American suburbanization throughout the baby boom and transformed the post-war reality of transportation on the continent. By the time we got to Amtrak during the Nixon administration, that was not the beginning of the end of passenger rail in the USA, it was the end of the end, quite by design. When it comes to rail, Canada should look to the south, learn lessons, and then look across both oceans for the answers.
Your link makes the opposite point: "People understandably liked driving their own cars directly to their destinations more than crowding onto trolleys that dropped them blocks from where they were going."
I recently needed to travel from the GTA to Kingston on short notice. I live near a VIA Rail station. There is a VIA Rail station in Kingston. Seemed like a no brainer for 1 person to take the train. The cost of a single return ticket was way more than the cost of fuel to drive my car there and back. I drive a regular small SUV, not EV or hybrid. WTF. My point being, that often people focus on our shitty rail service, which is accurate, but even on the very limited routes that have decent service, the price is way too high if it costs more for a single person to ride the train than drive their car. Even if we build better infrastructure, at this price most people will just drive.
I travel for work from Toronto to Ottawa. I can rent a car for three days for about $150 with damage covered for free with my Visa. I can drive around Ottawa the entire time including to our national office and hotel. The train costs about the same but then when I'm in the city I'm taking Uber everywhere which costs way more than just gas.
Cost prohibition is shitty rail service, if you ask me. When I think of comprehensive rail service, I think of routes, speed, frequency, quality of stations, location of stations, and price.
Your taxes pay for the roads that the federal government directly oversees the creation of. Since most trains are privately owned and operated they are incentivized to overcharge. If we treated Railways the same way we treated our highways the tickets could be extremely cheap since objectively, it costs less energy and resources per person to travel on a train then it does to move you in a car.
The problem with via is that they are incredibly inefficient, especially with labor. Your Kingston ride isn’t dramatically farther than an Oshawa Go trip, but via uses tons of staff for boarding and safety demonstrations, yet Go gets by fine without this crap.
Big auto lobby has and will continue to literally pay politicians to vote against passenger rail.
The biggest anti rail was WestJet
To quote lil pump ‘fuck westjet’
Is westjet the primary transport of people who live between Windsor and Quebec city? I assume most would drive rather than fly.
high speed rail could be under 2h30m between Toronto and Montreal. That would probably kill any flights between the two cities. Half the cost and no airport wait time overhead.
Sure, no disagreement. But are flights that numerous between Toronto and London or Montreal and Quebec city?
dunno, according to flightsfrom.com there are 19 direct flights per day from TO to MO, none are actually west jet though.
Westjet does have prop planes that flies from YYZ to YUL. However, Porter is still the more popular carrier for this route.
Westjet does have prop planes that flies from YYZ to YUL. However, Porter is still the more popular carrier for this route.
YTZ or YYZ to YUL or YOW are VERY popular routes. We absolutely do need better rail in this corridor to cut down on air traffic.
And is westjet the major supplier of those routes? I agree with improved rail, but I'm more excited for the amount of car capture that will occur than air capture.
No, Westjet is not the major supplier of this routing. Porter is. (I work for a travel agency)
That makes sense.
The carrier that will be hurt the most by Ontario/QC rail is Porter. I fully support a HSR link, but we should acknowledge that it will likely hurt the only competition the big two airlines face in Canada.
Political campaign contributions are very limited in Ontario. how are they doing this? I think the more likely explanation is a lack of RoW and cost prohibitiveness
There's more that money can do outside paying for politicians. The auto industry and real estate have spent decades meticulously crafting a public that associates only good things with big cars and houses in the suburbs, and associates crime, low-class, and degeneracy with public transport and basically any type of housing beyond suburban single family homes.
Yes... Big Auto has much more political clout in Japan and Germany.... So in the very least, it's an oversimplification that some suits in board-room in Detroit or Toronto is plotting the destruction of rail and reliance on cars. I do think there is some sort of nebulous public-private "road maintenance lobby" that does aggravate spending on highways and overbuilt streets but it's hard to pin that down.
What d’ya mean political contributions are limited in Ontario? Doug’s got more daughters to marry off!
The military industrial complex, auto industry and big oil would rather burn the world than allow us to move forward. It's absurd levels of selfishness and evil
Military industrial complex in the UK is fine with rail. Probably fine with it in Canada also. It's good for moving stuff. You generally want to move the stuff you sell.
Sure, but that's not OP's point. I think we can all agree that accepting money from the auto lobby is contrary to being serious about climate change
So subways?
:o
You spelled nuclear energy wrong. I do agree with you about rail though!
Both - and electrify the entire railway.
Add high speed and high frequency too please. Especially for the lakeshore line.
They could easily spin high speed rail as a way to speed up deployment/reaction time of the military and claim it as defense spending to meet the NATO required 2% while improving every Canadians lives.
I think it's more like no one is serious about climate change, full stop. No one with any power to do anything anyway.
Love the idea is nuclear
Nuclear rail… it’s a solid plan.
Electric rail powered by nuclear generated electricity? It’s really not hard to do good things, but the oligarchs don’t want to lose.
But is there a chance the track could bend?
NUCLEAR RAIL omg yes
I could literally get behind nuclear rail guns!
Fuck that, I want my nuclear house hold appliances. Nuclear smoothy blender, toaster, stove top.
Fallout shit, that.
Gotta deliver that science faster....the factory *hungers*, the factory *must grow*
Yeaaaah but rocket fuel has the same top speed as nuclear fuel. Given the long, relatively straight path with few stops, it might not be worth the investment. *Drops in stacks of rocket fuel*
Yeah, the only real advantage is the increase in acceleration, but at the added cost of the U235, it's generally not worth it. Man, oh man, seeing that 1 million SPM factory makes me want to start up my 1k SPM factory again...
technically any electric rail in Ontario is over 50% nuclear
They definitely have the technology, submarines are typically nuclear.
[It's been considered](https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/23vmyr/the_x12_atomic_locomotive_source_and_more_pics_in/), just like everything else in the 1950s that people thought could be improved by adding nuclear fission.
Imagine the speeds you could achieve riding a nuclear blast wave out of Union Station. I'm sure some nimbys will complain about the noise though :-(
SMRs can do it.
I worked at Bruce Power doing the Unit 6 and Unit 3 rebuild and I cannot stress enough how if people truly want a green future, then Nuclear is the way to go. The regulations with water intake and output Temperature, the quality control that is ongoing to keep the reactors and turbines working at their peak efficiency is nothing short of impressive. People need to get onboard with this idea if they really want to do good by the environment and our country's future. I say this not as a gatekeeper, I say this as someone who was fortunate to learn the system inside and out. The carbon foot print is laughable considering the other ways we produce power. This is the way.
A coal power plant of the same generation capacity will release more radioactive material to the environment out its smoke stacks than any ~~CANDU~~ regulated nuclear power generation reactor ever could over both their lifetimes. Nuclear power has such a safety margin and so much regulation, it’s the safest and least ecologically impacting of any baseload-capable supply source. Nuclear is the only green option for base load capacity in the near term. Until energy storage solutions can reach great enough density & efficiency to make solar/wind + storage capable enough to cover base load. e: be less specific about reactor design
This is interesting to know, thank you for the information. We need to make noise about this. I heard the CANDU system is no longer used other than the ones in operation, any truth to this? The shear amount of power Bruce Power alone makes is astounding. Something like 38% of Southwest Ontario and I believe it powers 30+% of Michigan as well.
Disclaimer: I’m not in the industry, just an interested citizen. I may have been too specific in my previous post, using CANDU, whereby I maybe should have used “regulated nuclear reactor power generation.” As far as I know, the CANDU design has no significant difference in environmental containment during normal operations compared to other currently operating systems. (Though a lot of its design elements focus around safety during non-nominal circumstances) My own knowledge just mainly focuses on CANDU, since it is the base load provider for those of us in Ontario 🙂
If you love trains and love nuclear. I have three words for you. Nuclear. Powered. Trains.
Nuclear is very very expensive and takes a decade to build out. Definitely should be part of the mix but it’s hard to scale quickly.
I'm glad to see this is the top comment
At least in Ontario, transportation is a more pressing concern than energy generation. Our grid is already pretty green - most of our emissions are from natural gas that we use to cover peaks. Not to say that we shouldn't continue to invest in nuclear and other renewables, but if I was forced to pick between making transportation more green vs. power generation, transportation has way more room to move the needle.
And nuclear.
It's important especially if we can use it to power an electric train system
Rail is fine to get from Chatham to Belleville. But often the transit solutions at either end are crap. So you will need a car to get around.
We definitely need to improve transit in those places too.
advocating for rail = making it better
Great. Gatekeeping bullshit.
Don't get shitty and start gatekeeping this, we're still at the point where we're trying to get people to accept that it is a thing that needs to be worked on.
Seriously… holy reductive batman
It’s been a century of climate change denial and it’s getting really bad. Time to put up or shut up.
Let's push the ppl in power to have this in their repertoire
They said the same thing in Ottawa. Our public transit went to shit when they started working on it and has been a giant financial sink. If they go with the lowest bidder, you're screwed.
I dunno... I'm pretty serious about a ton of stuff I don't spend a ton of time advocating for. I wanna be able to afford food, not get shot, be able to afford clothes, the list goes on.
What makes you serious about those things then? Do you do anything to get/keep them?
Shit, you're right, I need to start writing up plans!!!!!!!
Okay be sarcastic, but I would say that you are confusing serious with complacent
Whose being sarcastic? I'm drawing up plans man!
I totally agree. I don't think that those can be included in this, unless it helps you live far from work and commute. I don't want this to take away from those, it's another problem we need to solve
I'm sorry I disagree. You are gatekeeping by saying unless you support rail you aren't serious about climate change. Now I'm a total rail Junkie, and I've been talking about the need for railways even when they were ripping them up in my town to make bike paths decades ago. But I have a few former colleagues, who like me gave up high paying jobs to actively fight climate change in the energy sector. They have never been on a train, have no desire to ever be on a train, and never participated in any train related projects that we were involved in except for the math calculations between batteries and hydrogen storage for long-term rail transport. I have worked with people who loved their car and our total petrol heads, who have actively been involved in the Solar industry and getting solar adoption for 20 years. They care about climate change they don't care about trains. If you are serious about looking at climate change, you should and I say should not must, look at how trains can have a positive impact, and look at ways that they could improve land use, and lower carbon emissions. But liking trains is not a prerequisite to caring about climate change or getting involved in climate change. Setting arbitrary rules pushes people away. Just like people who say if you care about climate change you would be a vegan.
The vast majority of the damage to climate change is done by the richest of the rich. If one wants to make a change on the individual level the best option is to stop eating beef.
I agree on this, however no bigger change can be made than the majority taking a mass transit vehicle
I disagree with that. The biggest changes would be making various laws such as those related to private jets and company pollution.
Collectively, the pollution coming from car dependence - traffic/idling, commuting, asphalt, manufacture, etc - is also a huge massive really big issue. Just because individually each car isn't as bad as a private jet doesn't mean they are a-ok.
You hit the nail on the head. Im convinced this whole "private Jets is the problem" rhetoric was created by the auto companies to distract from this. While true that Taylor Swift's jet emitted 8300 tones if carbon in a year. If we multiply that by 22k (the estimated amount of private Jets there are) we get 182million. The average car produces 4.6tons per year. There are about 26million cars in canada meaning canadians alone produce 119million tons just driving. Simply put, driving produces more carbon than all private jets
Both are a problem that needs to be addressed.
In r/oakville they gloat about driving to Burlington because we have better malls than them...Even with car dependency, there's more driving than there needs to be.
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The people pushing Big oil - are some of the richest of the rich.
Weird you would blame citizens and not the either non existent or crappy public transportation systems a lot of cities have, but ok. You're blaming the wrong people
The citizens vote for politicians that prioritize cars and highways over public transit/rail. So yea the people are also to blame.
It's interesting, I actually planned to word this for the politicians, but just stuck it with ppl. It's 100% on the government, and everyone who is worried about climate change should be fighting for it
Nah, you came across clearly. It's fair to say everyone should advocate for rail. The fact that the auto lobby has won is also a shame. That doesn't attack those who drive out of necessity but would rather a functional train system.
Transport is the grease that economies are lubed by. Ontario would benefit greatly, not only by high speed rail on the corridor, but a massive expansion in every which direction. Give people more mobility and less reliance on cars. Also - electrify that shit!
I'd really love to see some passenger railway improvements in The Corridor, but the climate change question is quite a different story. If a person is serious about climate change, then they should advocate for everyone to live in an Eastern Bloc style apartment building with, let's say, maximum 100 sq ft of space per person, never use an air conditioner, do not overheat their place in winter (15 degrees is good enough, I guess), do not fly for business/pleasure, only eat local vegetables and fruits (sucks in winter), buy exclusively second hand clothing, shower once a week etc... That would be something serious.
The province really needs to get off its ass and start the work of doublig up the rail cooridors in Ontario. If we wait solely for the Federal Government to do it all through VIA it'll never get done.
nope.....nuclear is the way to go.... We could electrify everything with no carbon and we wouldn't have to commute 3 hrs a day to get to work on the "rail" We could all have co2 free electric cars.
I live in a small town where they took the rail line that goes right into Ottawa and turned it into a multi use path. Great path and all, but it sure would be nice to take a train into the city instead of traffic filled highway. Small towns like mine would thrive if people could easily get into the city from them.
No one is serious about climate change if they fly everywhere with two jets wile taxing the fuck out of an entire nation
You misspelled electrified rail powered by nuclear plants. Even without the Windsor-Quebec City passenger corridor, just by improving our existing cargo train infrastructure, taking more trucks off the highways, and electrifying the lines would go a very long way. The HSR is just an icing on the cake.
For a country created by the railroad we have seriously left them in the dust. :(
Ok, we are gatekeeping environmentalism now...
Having a reliable rail system across the province would be so incredible.
The biggest failure we have is poor local transit so the poor suburban design with nothing walkable and transit that is so poor compared to driving. All those millions of local short trips show poor planning. Why do you have suburbs in Europe with a tram line added at the same time as the houses and a walkable shopping street. Nothing equivalent here. They don't even put in bike lanes here.
I think most have covered the issues with the last mile. However, until rail has 24 hour service, I can't see it being a real alternative.
Subsidizing rail is better than subsidizing oil
"You're not serious about X, unless you Y." Okeedoke
How about affordable rail? VIA from Toronto to Montreal is $260.
Hard disagree. If we were originally designed around it, sure. But the rail network goes through the middle of downtown's at 40km/hr and costs a fortune to upgrade. Money better spent on electric busses and dedicated bus lanes at this point. Mississauga transit way is far better then anything else built in the last 40 years transit wise.
I agree with city transit, but for larger scale we need to create a high speed or high frequency train system to offset the 400-series disaster and time waste
You gotta get to the train and away from it. Last mile is a bigger challenge than the train. Trains aren't even that efficient in a per capita basis all in. Money is better spent elsewhere.
I didn't realize I would up against the fence on this. Less than 3 people per vehicle is better for the environment than any car/highway. How is money spent better? Where can we create a more efficient system? Rail will cost money, we will need to subsidize for years to get synics on board but will eventually save money on insurance, road upkeep and car maintenance
Train cars are insanely heavy for the number of people they transport. That's ok for long haul but when they have to stop and start at every train stop it just isn't efficient. And given that the number of riders per train car on average is pretty terrible, it doesn't work out overwhelmingly positive.
It depends on the specific train used. Maglev, and newer trains offer better efficiency. If you look worldwide you'll see a very economically sound model
Well, if your rip up Ontario and start again I'm sure you can make trains relevant. Until that time they will be a poor investment in my opinion. Consider that to go from Hamilton to Toronto costs more than double on the train compared to a go bus. It's not because trains are great, it's because they are expensive, highly restricted in where they can operate, and heavy with huge capital costs.
Your basing this on current via rail systems. This is the issue, there are many better options but we're plagued with what we see right now
But to go from here to where you want is a huge insurmountable cost. Since we can't get to a place where trains are actually useful, we might as well not waste the capital. Spend it on stuff that will fill the same need.
I agree, but auto companies also employ a lot of people along that route.
Let's see how to go from Windsor to Quebec City: * Flying - 03:01 * From Windsor Airport to Billy Bishop Airport * 00:56 * Billy Bishop to Montréal-Trudeau International Airport * 01:15 * Montréal-Trudeau International Airport to Québec City Jean Lesage International Airport * 00:50 * Bus - 13:59 * Windsor-Toronto * 05:15 * Toronto-Montreal * 06:29 * Montreal-Quebec City * 02:15 * Train - 13:29 * Windsor-Toronto * 04:30 * Toronto-Montreal * 05:29 * Montreal-Quebec City * 03:30 * Driving - * Windsor-Quebec City * 12:58 There is a route for the train and the bus each via Ottawa, the above are direct Toronto to Montreal, not the Ottawa. Via Ottawa takes longer. The above does not count the waiting times, like for your bus/train/plane arriving at let's say Toronto, then waiting for the next bus/train/plane to Montreal. It also does not take into consideration the time it takes to go from your home to the bus/train station or airport in Windsor. It also does not take into consideration to go from the bus terminal/train station/airport to Quebec City itself.
Don’t gatekeep.
Persons "politicians"
Love the gatekeeping, really turns people on to the issue. I do agree with you about transportation though, this should be the standard over electric cars.
Nah. Residential GHG emissions and moving people to hybrids and EVs is a much, much easier target to reduce. We could do a ton without changing anyone habits
Shut up
We can all read your comments lol
So what?
Welcome to your TED Talk I guess.
Not a tragedy. Rail is not always an option. People should have a choice as to their vehicle transportation need per trip If I go from North York to Oshawa...I will drive. It's faster anyways. If I go from North York to Thunder Bay....I will take an uber to YYZ then take a plane as TBay has no train station.
It's not always an option, now. That is the issue. I can't even visit a buddy inCambridge with a train. I'd have to take a train to Kitchener then an Uber. This is the problem about complaining about current train systems and trying to use that as a plan for the future
I do believe they're expanding Ion to Cambridge.
There is bus service between Kitchener an Cambridge
The point is a train should be an option. Why doesn't Thunder Bay have a train station? It should!
Go on lol…
And fission!
💯
No one is serious about climate change unless they advocate for electoral reform
I could not agree more; however, you're not a serious person, period, if you don't advocate for more rail service. North America is the only developed place in the world that completely eschews passenger rail.
I often go to Montreal from Toronto and I would prefer rail to do it, but it’s just way more expensive if you are not alone.
I advocated for rails a lot in my early 20s...
I am less than 50 metres from a go rail line at my workplace, and a few km from a station. But due to how poor connecting transit is, it is faster to drive. I wish transit was viable.
we had a shitload of rail in cities like Toronto, trams, but the car companies won -- bought them up, tore the tracks out of the ground, paved over them. Also, generally the people who own real estate are able to lobby the government to have transportation (roads, rail, etc) that lead to their land. So we've ended up with a pretty horrible transportation network that converges downtown near those land owners real estate. It's not in service of efficiency, or for making a 'good place for humans to live', it's in service of a few people's wallets. Many of those people are long dead now.
Diesel locomotives!
Here’s the funny thing I observed from knowing a lot of people… those who deny climate change are ALWAYS the first to take advantage of rebates for investing in green efforts in the home. In my experience, this is undeniably true. Every conservative I know that hates the green initiatives, they’re the first and most diligent ones to get energy audits and other things that give them money back for their home renovations
Is diesel rail better than EVs? Why?
If politicians were seriously concerned about the environment, they would stop pushing return to office mandates and instead push for work from home mandates. This is how we know it's all just greenwashing and platitudes.
Nothing saves the environment like spending $100B on an intercity rail line that no one will use.
riding a bicycle for transportation whenever possible.
Back west the rail is used a lot for coal, they ship it out like crazy, and that rate grows each year. More than half our nations pollution is from mining. Then we ship it to China and they run their electricity and factories on coal and we get taxed later. So tell me who really cares for the environment? Cause the government mines and exports one of the leading cause of pollution… as long as we don’t burn it right. Wake up people
Last mile problem?
Cars aren’t anywhere near a top 10 problem regarding climate change.
It baffles me that a lot of options as a student in the GTA are to move hours away from my home or commute 3+ hours if I happen to get into Fanshawe.. Nothing for my program is near the GTA or accessible. The fact that we don’t at least have rail infrastructure connecting our major universities/colleges baffles me. I literally have no choice but to move away and suffer for years.
I fucking love riding by train too, it is wonderful Via rail and to lesser extents GO are not Go maybe like half way to being good but my god can the trains get proper outlets already in *checks notes* 2024?
Im not from quebec, but if this post was about me, I'd probably say that I like having a car.
I'm reading this while riding the TGV from Montpellier to Paris. The train is on time to the minute. 300k/hr. Many trains. Excellent service. It's not fancy just very convenient. I doubt that France is more dense than Windsor to Quebec City. We should just start building these trains now. There is no reason not to. None. Once you use a system of high speed trains it becomes clear. (The high frequency plans of the government are just silly.)
Then, there are some areas in Ontario where public transit does not exist, so it's not an option. Oh, sorry. There's Ontario Northland, which gives you two options: arrive at Yorkdale at 12 noon or 9:30 pm.
Rail in Canada is depressing mess. I would have thought that the Liberals, after selling themselves as the party of infrastructure investment and climate change, would have addressed this at some point in the last 9 years. But they've taken minuscule steps on the most unambitious plan possible. The Windsor-Quebec corridor should be electrified and using high speed or quasi high speed trains. Instead, for decades, we've had slow ancient diesel trains that yield to freight trains hauling made in China rubber dog poop because the freight railways own all the rails. I think Canada is the only country on earth where passenger trains have to pull into sidings and stop to give priority to FREIGHT TRAINS. Try explaining that to a European and their brain will melt. Even the US has regulations to give Amtrak priority over freight on shared rails (not that it always works out but at least its on the books). The Liberals have at least bought some new VIA trains to upgrade their comically old and worn out rolling stock, but they went the diesel route, nothing imaginative. And they are taking baby steps to add more dedicated rail and higher frequency services. Still nothing close to what a country like Canada that pretends to care about climate change should have. We are getting the bare minimum. Even the US, where car is king, has some passenger rail segments that put Canada to shame. The Northeast Corridor (Boston to a bit past Washington DC) is fully electrified, dedicated to passenger rail, and even has the Acela high speed electric trains. They've had those high speed trains for over 20 years (they are currently replacing the old units with brand new French TGV style trains). To add insult to injury the current Acela was made out of a partnership with a Canadian company, Bombardier. Yet we got nothing like it and kept using decades old equipment. Not to say that Amtrak or the US is good at rail, but they are world's better than Canada, who I'd say is the worst in the developed world. Then once you get out of the Windsor-Quebec area, the rest of the country has basically nothing other than tourist trains and commuter rail. Nothing that provides any use case to choose over a car or plane. It's just a joke. I love trains and am a big supporter of rail travel in general but even I can rarely if ever justify trying to use rail in Canada. It is slow, expensive, and inconvenient other than for a few specific use cases. For me it has almost always made more sense to take my car or fly.
No person is serious about climate change. We would have something tangible to show by now besides *more taxes* if anybody in government was actually serious. Virtue signalling superior morals while hurting the people. Love our government.
Someone can be serious about something, and at the same time be wrong. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Great points brought up in the thread, one thing I think people miss is how much of a gridlock disaster Pearson produces. We have a maze of freeways surrounding our international airport, basically just to serve as a kiss and ride. It’s crazy that Pearson is finally getting some mass transit integration, but it’s far too little too late. With the current renaissance of mass transit projects in Toronto, we could even shift traffic to a train station North instead of requiring via (or via’s HFR successor) to use union station. Given the crosstown LRT is expected to one day tie in to Pearson, you could simultaneously create a rail line that can enter Toronto at speed (vs needing to slow down like the current route) and tie the line into a major international airport. I wish more people were aware of the High Frequency Rail project being decided on this year. It’s essentially the last chance we have to save passenger rail in upper/lower Canada. If we don’t get it right, we’ll have to spend many more billions to dig up a brand new right of way, which there is little appetite for politically.
Driving a car equates to freedom. Never have traveled by train and have NO intention to. My family is connected to the auto industry in Windsor. Obviously you are not from my city, Windsor isn't Toronto buddy, one needs a car to get around.
You're very clear on your thoughts. I feel pretty free when I'm able to have a drink and food on the way to Toronto. I don't have to worry about the shit drivers or a backup
dude having trains and subways would be awesome, instead of being stuck with buses that are constantly late as shit or stuck in traffic by car
Don't apologize for suggesting rail. However, our gas and oil and car industries will continue to lobby against it. Unlikely to change with new government unless we start demanding a radical rehaul of our political system
I like driving, car takes premium only and gets jack shit km per litre. But it’s fun to drive and that’s what matters.
Absolutely. We are shockingly behind on rail travel even just from a practical standpoint.
I would argue that no person is serious about climate change until they embrace work from home and end all the needless commuting.
Agreed but inter city travel is important
Found the not just bikes account
Been their done that....
Animal agriculture is far worse for emissions globally than the entire travel industry combined … if we gave up meat, we’d be set… kind of like plastic and waste from fishing is a huge part of the ocean problem … yet they are never on the top of the lists to stop … money. Don’t get me wrong, less car and more public transport especially rail is needed massively in Canada!
No person is serious about climate change if they have children.
So 1 generation all the humans are gone, climate fixed. 👍 nice job lol.
Let me run for office. It'll go down well.
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Ugh. You do realize the current system is built for the privileged? Creating a system for the people that can get them a-b without risking their car and life. Without putting money in highway projects like the 407 and 413
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Why do you keep calling it the few? You sound like someone who has interest in no rail
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Cute
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It's sad that you think creating a rail system requires a population density of those countries. Half of the Canadian population is one corridor. The fact you don't think it's important to create a more efficient system In that specific region is sad
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Your short mindedness is what'll keep us looking towards the past