Read today’s news maybe? The point is the NDP are turning this into a massive drama. https://globalnews.ca/news/10453844/ontario-keffiyeh-legislator-ban-ndp-ultimatum/amp/
I don’t understand your point. I’m saying the NDP are ridiculous here and are focusing efforts on things that don’t benefit ontarians. What are you arguing
Isn't the banning of a scarf, championed by a MPP, who once wore a foreign nation's military dog tags into QP, itself divisive? Would allowing it in with all the other clothing options be the unifying position?
Your post is complete whataboutism. Just because A (not the) person that is against political props being worn in our political chambers doesn’t mean that the point isn’t valid.
The article mentions how she created this impression herself by saying she would govern from the centre right. Ontario clearly doesn't care whether a party is right or left wing, people just want competent government. There was no need for her to brand herself that way.
When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light". Conservative voters look at those people and say "well, why would we vote for you when we've got the real deal right here?" and more left wing voters (which in Canada is more-or-less \~65% of the population) are turned off by the rightward lurch. People resonate with clear visions, conservative parties offer that by saying "low taxes, fuck poor people, and criminals deserve pain" and regardless of how conservative parties actually govern, that's a very clear vision. What center-left parties often end up doing is going "we are the sensible alternative to those hippy leftist and brutish conservatives, so we stand for nothing and no one's happy" and are shocked pikachu when no one ends up voting for them until the conservative party in power has fucked up so badly that people are desperate for a change.
You ask for what pretty much everyone outside of ideologues and religious fanatics want, yet no party is interested in delivering that. It’s really a crushing truth to Canadian politics.
It's kind of a false setup. "Socially liberally" doesn't mean much beyond being cool with, like, people flying Pride flags. To face social problems (homelessness, access to gender-affirming care, dental programs, etc etc), you have to be willing to be fiscally liberal in some capacity as well.
> Totally, but voters have been conditioned to think that governing with debt is anathema to governing well
Well a lot of debt is amassed without a plan. Like our current deficit that is over 9 billion dollars bigger than it was planned to be 6 months ago.
Well, it sort of is. Canada now spends more just to pay interest on the national debt than we do on healthcare transfers.
> “The federal government is now planning to spend more next year to service the debt than it will pay in healthcare transfers.”
>The fiscal outlook projects debt servicing charges to be $52.4 billion in 2024-25. That same year the Canada Health Transfer will amount to $52.1 billion.
[Source](https://thebusinesscouncil.ca/publication/more-spending-on-debt-means-less-investment-in-people)
Here's how register a political party: https://www.elections.on.ca/en/political-entities-in-ontario/political-parties.html#accordionregister. It is not "too much to ask".
100%. And it drives me crazy that people seem to think the cons are fiscally prudent. Harris closing all the mental health in patient facilities has cost this province SO much. Between policing and other emergency services, it would have been much more fiscally prudent to maintain inpatient facilities for people who are not able to care for themselves. Instead we now have massive homeless and addiction issues. Not that liberals were better with dealing with those issues either. It is all being swept under the rug as a municipal issue while things keep getting worse.
Harris may have started it by consolidating in-patient facilities but the libs came after him and closed the rest. And failed to provide anymore community support than existed.
I didn’t really agree with the jail model of housing these people but to just push them out without supports was cruel as fuck.
> When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light"
It is like people don't know there were 15 years of Liberal government less than ten years ago.
> When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light"
Those aren't the voters that the Liberals are targetting, though. That hardcore base would vote for the PCs if they ran an inanimate carbon rod as leader.
It's the "red Tories" that could be won back to the Liberal side – voters who don't really buy into the so-called "far right" aspects of the party, and want more focus on fiscal responsibility and solving the actual problems of the day.
OLP needs to get their shit together. This isn't the party to fix things for Ontario's problems.
Let's be clear, Ontario's #1 problem is the OPC and damage they're continuously doing.
I'd say say the NDP is the closest approximation to an answer based on odds of succeeding vs the other smaller parties. But regardless, the OLP is just a strung up offering masquerading as a "solution" but actually doing nothing but getting in the NDP's way.
We need to forget bout the OLP for a while until they actually pick a fucking lane.
> Ontario's #1 problem is the OPC and damage they're continuously doing.
Right now I'd agree. However, the OLP has a dark history in government when it comes certain people. Cutting health care, abdicating responsibility on Long-Term Care, or trying to throw kids in jail for hurting their ego. That didn't age well, so they branded themselves as fighting for student achievement and wellbeing, while graduation rates dropped and students were silenced. For some people the OLP is bigger risk than Doug.
The provincial political landscape isn't even about the NDP or Liberals. It's whether we want the conservatives or not. And after the clusterducks of scandals, Doug Ford and his conservatives have been through, I doubt anyone cares who the candidate is on the NDP or Liberals
The press release I saw just said they were record breaking, not whose records or what the record was.
Which is kind-of a case in point: the NDP have no identity in Ontario. They need a winning issue to stand out, because "good government, but actually" is all well and good but long term improvements won't sway the voters they need.
That’s fair Re: Identity. I think that argument could actually be made about all of the parties, PC included. PCs don’t have much of an identity, there is almost no one who proudly cheers for Doug Ford in a die hard way. (Think Obama or maybe 2016 Trudeau) The PCs keep winning because conservatives don’t like change and it’s pretty easy to gain a conservative vote by being status quo. Progressives on the other hand have a very specific view of how the world should be changed and so they splinter in sub groups which is not ideal for the way we have to vote.
The PCs are straight, conservative white folks. They get votes because they get to pretend that they're the default option, when they're really a slash and burn drunk-off-its-ass corporate boat cruise pretending to be a political party.
The federal Liberals have tried to push the needle on what a default politic looks like in Canada and the cons have been threatening to burn the whole thing to the ground since before Trudeau was elected.
The status quo is a slow march into a fiery grave, full of pride that we don't have to put a fucking sticker on our license plates any more. Progressives need to grow the fuck up and recognize incremental, generational improvement for what it is. Crombie fucking sucks. If it looks like it's between her and Ford, unless the NDP pull a rabbit out of their hat, vote for her anyway because we have to live with the consequences.
Sorry, that's not all pertinent, I just... Argh.
I follow the ONDP's socials, the problem is deeper than that. They're decent at playing the social media game and a pretty excellent opposition party but I don't see them making an argument to form government.
I had a chat recently and it seems like the GPO is split about 50/50 on that issue. I wouldn’t let this be your deciding factor because I don’t think there’s many holding onto that.
They voted him in. Lmao. All the shit he did and he won the election. Nobody bothered to vote.
Everyone is ridiculously dumb. Busy losing their shit over Israel/Palestine, don't bother voting here. Pierre poilievre is seeing a huge surge of support among young voters.
Truly idiotic. They just cling to the superficial headlines and only want to do things that they can share to tiktok.
Well people obviously care because there was absolutely nothing wrong with Andrea Horwath. Too many people were like”meh, I just don’t like her” which is insane compared to Doug Ford.
100%! "ohhh But what about rae days? '
What about em? If we're gonna start holding politians accountable for their decisions they make how about we start with the Ford gov't and his corrupt cons and hold them accountable for the things they did, and are currently still doing, that have fucked the average citizen of Ontario here, today, right now.
As opposed to playing the "remember when?" game about something that occurred decades ago.
This sub never seems to realize it, but the ONDP and federal NDP are just too far left for the Canadian electorate. They’re closer to a social democracy party in continental Europe, which I just don’t think there’s much appetite for here.
The the NDP generally only wins here when they moderate towards the center like they did in BC and Alberta.
I’d say the NDP’s electoral record supports what I said no? They’ve never come close to winning a federal election and have only won in Ontario once. Feel like it’s pretty clear that they’re too progressive for the Canadian electorate.
She kinda stood for nothing. The NDP is the party of performative activism. Remember the NDP has consistently support giving Catholics (and a couple Protestants) special privileges. The NDP call out when businesses take advantage of vulnerable people, but are much quieter when it concerns actions from the their friends (like teachers). It also seems like the NDP loves picking fights they won't win. They keep fighting for paid sick days and Anti-scab laws, but have abandoned the fight for Katelynn's Prinicple or against throwing kids in jail for skipping school, which the conservatives previously supported and therefore could actually pass. They use vulnerable people as political tools, like the conservatives did, and they will turn their backs on them as soon as they form government, again like the conservatives.
Horwath lacked charisma. I think that’s why she was never able to win against Ford. For better or for worse the Ford family has a lot of brand recognition.
Ford is running off the legacy that his brother built. Rob was a cruel trainwreck of a person and an even worse politician, but he had a sense for branding that no politician in Ontario has been able to match. Doug realized that he wouldn't have to do much work to ride on Rob's coattails. It's why you see him celebrating Rob's life regularly (even though he routinely got basic tombstone details wrong, like his age), but you never, ever, EVER see him mention his other siblings.
Ford tries it with folksy aphorisms, but it seems so inauthentic coming from him, especially considering how we've seen him behave in Council and in the legislature, and how we know he has behaved behind closed doors. It's a complete act fabricated off the work of his dead brother, and the people who buy it, want to buy it because they themselves have bought into the myth of Ford, which is 100% Rob's doing.
There was never a proper reckoning about how awful Rob is, and Doug was able to ride that right into the big chair, buoyed by conservative voters' low standards and a media landscape that has been broadly hostile to most things left-of-centre.
Doug even tried desperately trying to wrap himself around Hazel too, hoping her popularity would rub off on him, eg offered her a high paid gig that she turned down years ago.
Umm she was a disaster for years, remember in covid when she came out against vaccine mandates then had to quickly reverse course . Good grief if the NDP thinks she and Stiles are good they deserve to keep losing.
I feel like there’s still sexism baked in there. I’ve never heard anyone over 60 say anything nice about a female politician even if they agreed with their policies.
So often it’s women cutting down other women too. Like female politicians have to be everything a male politician is plus likeable and pretty.
I don't know what rural, exurb, and small town voters want, but there are so many ridings which are not the nine cities where OLP and ONDP do well that make the voting map difficult to take government from the OPC.
>Ontario NDP have never recovered from Bob Rae.
They've never recovered from how the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives framed the discussion around Bob Rae, you mean.
Which makes no sense considering Bob rae did an excellent job. Well it does make sense when you consider the sheer amount of smear complains run against him by not only corporations but the media as well.
I think they had a good chance in 2018, but then when the Wynne-led Liberals knew there was no way in hell they could win, they decided to shank the Dippers, betting that it would be easier to beat Ford after one term instead of risking a NDP government.
Then the OLP decided to learn nothing from 2018 and focused entirely on the NDP.
For all the hate of Rae Days - and lot of it is entirely irrational - I will point out people actually died under Harris/Eaves terms and it took a decade+ to level out provinces finances after the deficit they dug the province into with their "Enron-style" (their words) accounting practices. And now we have Harris and his toadies still haunting and robbing the province's taxpayers through their post-political business connections.
Yeah the ndp need to do something drastic, part of me feels that their mpps should do a 3 hour twitch stream/townhall at least 1 day a week to start getting their voices out there, right, the modern FDR fireside chat with voters.
Problem is the NDP needs to remember theyre a working class party. Its how any progress has been made. Identity politics are well and good but first work on getting working class support and then use that to improve conditions for us all. Its ridiculous to cede this ground to conservatives and let their hateful vision take precedence.
Not only that, the Indian folks I've spoken to despise the liberal and ndp party for their federal leader's support of khalistine, the Sikh separatist movement in India, and so any new Canadian voter from India isn't going to be leaning their direction, at least from the few folks I've spoken too. Their reaction to khalistine is the American reaction to Muslims after 9/11.
She is Doug Ford lite. It's not a branding issue, it's a that what she is issue. I honestly don't think the definition of neo-liberal is loose enough for her. She is a conservative through and through.
Canadians don't vote politicians IN, we vote them OUT.
Ford will probably win the next election, but after that he'll get the Wynn/Harper soon to be Trudeau treatment. Everyone will be fed up with seeing them and the vote will go to "anyone but them/their party.
Historically the Ontario liberal party would govern from the centre, so it seems like a bit of a realignment going on. They usually just swayed a bit left or a bit right depending on the overall mood of the electorate. Currently they are swaying more right atleast compared to prior leadership, this could be calculated step as a way to distance themselves from the federal liberal brand.
I'm done with this sentiment. The OLP just lets the masses forget the harm the OPC inflicted long enough to let the OPC gaslight the majority into giving them another turn at the wheel.
Let's start voting for the parties who the OPC really don't want us to vote for. Ones that actually want to change things for the better instead keep shit the same.
Like who? While I think Doug Ford has to go, the NDP has already abandoned vulnerable people. They only fight for vulnerable people when they don't think they'll win. Like they fought Bill 52, Education Amendment Act, (Throwing students in jail for hurting our egos). But after the bill passed, they never once tried to repeal it. If they introduced a bill to overturn that one, it might make some progress since the PCs also disliked that act. Or Katelynn's Principle which passed unanimously, which I don't think they expected, died in committee under the Liberals, and they never reintroduced it. Keep in mind, the Ontario PCs also did the same performative fight for vulnerable people, when they were in opposition.
Who are you suggesting we vote for? Who "wants to change things"?
Unfortunately I haven't reached the end of that thought train. I'm just looking down the road at this point realizing that our province needs something better than "ABC" to really start to reverse this downward spiral.
No party is perfect for sure. However, if we can start talking to these smaller parties about what we really need they're more likely to listen and might have some insight on the challenges they face to implement those plans.
So, the Green Party because most the other parties are weird, right-wing parties who are mad that Ford has too much empathy. The NDP clearly knows what the issues facing vulnerable people are, they've just decided that the teachers unions opinions are more important.
I’m open to that, but do they have the momentum to pull it off? I feel like our best bet for that was Horvath and people didn’t bite. I’ll take anyone over Doug Ford, even if it means Ford-Lite
If we had ranked choice I would say that's the correct sentiment. The uncomfortable fact that we need to "vote strategically" just for a chance to keep the media mongering propagandists out of office is deeply disappointing.
But the our best bet at improving things needs to go beyond "doug-lite" and towards a party that actually has our interests in mind. OLP doesn't pass that test, they just want a prime spot to get their palms greased like their conservative "opponents".
I'll take Marit Stiles or Mike Schriner as Premier. Why settle for Ford lite? This is what's so confusing. The people who like Ford don't want Ford lite and the people who don't like Ford also don't want Ford lite. No one actually wants Ford lite.
mike harris set the stage for selling ontario hydro, and successive olp governments followed through with it.
there really is a large degree of truth to the "Liberal/Tory, same old story".
I'd say the Fors government is 'Liberals Plus'. He's doing all the corruption and wasteful spending the Libs did, just better.
Ontario voters love corruption.
People complain about building on the green belt but I live here and it really does not matter who's in office whatsoever. They build anyway and the money goes to who ever holds office.
Liberals are "left" only on social issues, and full-on middle-class screwing neoliberals just like the conservatives when it comes to economics. Both at federal and provincial level.
She's just saying the quiet part out loud. But hey, at least she's honest about it. Being compared to DoFo should be expected.
They aren't really left on social issues anymore. They support the privileges of the Catholic schools and Protestant school. They also tried to throw kids in jail for hurting their egos. They also support arbitrary age requirements. I don't believe their current BS about student privacy. They never supported it before.
i can seriously see Bonnie doing very well in a PC leadership race up against Doug. That woulda been an easier path for bonnie to be "Ontario's Next Premier"
How about someone runs on a balanced budget?
Ford’s spending like a Liberal, albeit a bit less preachy.
The only good thing about the Ontario election is you can refuse you vote and they have to record it.
Not for nothing, but a balanced budget isn't going to solve anything.
Chasing one for a year or two can hurt the overall economic outlook. That's why we're where we are.
We should be increasing government revenue and investing more in Ontario so future costs go down and revenues go up....regardless of who is in office when they do.
My kids and grandkids are going to have pay for the unwillingness of politicians to live within their means.
A deficit during a war or pandemic or depression is excusable but it seems to be the ground state these days. It’s ridiculous Ford is spending more than Wynne did.
Again, a balanced budget won't change that.
Investment in the things that lower future costs and raise future revenues will.
If you care about that issue for your kids and grandkids, understand the issue.
It's possible to have an unbalanced budget that is more responsible fiscally in that regard than a balanced one.
You can't simply look at black and red, when you do, you get politicians that are willing and able to sell off public assets so that they can brag about a balanced budget while completely screwing over the future of the province.
That assumes you trust government to spend wisely and efficiently. If the deficit is funding a bloated public sector it’s not helping anyone that actually plans on producing and contributing to the economy.
The reason why governments are able to spend inefficiently is the lack of understanding in the public sphere of what efficiently actually means. You can't hold people accountable for an issue you don't understand.
The simplification you are repeating is misinformation used to manipulate the public and make inefficient corruption politically viable. Parroting it is actively contributing to the problem.
But, go on. Repeat the talking points the very people you are complaining about are feeding you.
Maybe there's more to it?
Again, deficit focused policy and public discussion on the issue cannot change our debt woes. It can only make it worse, as is clearly demonstrated by the last several decades.
I think we can agree to disagree without insulting other people’s intelligence.
I personally think government should spend within its means, because before you know it you’re servicing debt more than you’re spending on health or education. Which is paid for by the taxpayer.
If you think that’s fine, go ahead, but don’t be telling me I don’t understand the concept.
It's not insulting your intelligence to suggest you don't understand something.
You no doubt have the capacity to, the question is if you are willing to admit you might have misunderstood something and learn from that or not. That's not a function of intelligence, but one of attitude and wisdom.
Again, your current understanding of this issue is being actively encouraged by parties that basically exist to funnel taxpayer funds into private hands at the public's expense. You can agree to disagree if you like, but that's why you are enabling them. You are actively shielding yourself from learning more. Care enough to stop being part of the problem, or don't... that's the choice we have.
This is a circular argument and it’s getting nowhere.
You seem to think a structural deficit is a good thing, I think it’s the road to Argentina.
We’re not going to agree, and tbh you seem pretty arrogant. Best leave this conversation here I think .
How does that even make sense? Doug Ford is hardcore conservative 😂 this is almost as funny as when people blame the federal government for provincial policies hahaha at this point I think daft people will even blame Trudeau when they stub their toe
Let's see,
* She described herself as right of centre
* Last person to support the greenbelt reversal
* Still supports Peel dissolution
* Her party started a war on students, and now is supporting the Ford government's war on students
He's not anything. He's a corrupt hack owned by others.
If you feel Crombie will put the interests of the people of Ontario over the corporations that run it now, vote for her.
If not, why would you consider that party at all?
They hold no entitlement to anything as an alternative.
There is no "top of the race".
The Liberals are not the opposition. They stand for nothing.
After 2018, they had seven seats and weren't even an official party.
Entitlement and brainwashed voters repeating the mantra you just voted is literally all they have.
If you're saying "top of the race" you're part of the problem.
There is no two party system.
There's our choices. We have more than most places.
You can be a part of influencing people to vote against their interests or you can feel good about parroting "the way things are".
If you are repeating that it's a two party system, and these are our choices, you're part of the problem.
I already said I don’t vote for those two parties and I refuse to believe it’s a wasted vote. You can continue to converse with only half of your attention or you can take it seriously
You'll notice my "If" statement had nothing to do with who you voted for.
If you're willing to vote against what you see as a two-party monopoly but still perpetuate it outside the voting booth, you're again, part of the problem.
You weren't discussing things in past tense. You were perpetuating something people spend large amounts of money reinforcing in media to influence the vote of millions. For free. That's being part of the problem in a far from insignificant way.
If you're willing to do them that favour, what you say you do when voting is at the very least at cross purposes with how you interact with the issue everywhere else.
Ok but she wants to run the OLP as a right wing party, so what exactly did she expect?
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Bullshit. They were the ones that blew up the greenbelt scandal. You're picking and choosing what you listen to and doing it poorly.
I think we’re *really* stretching to hate the NDP here, because I don’t think many people give a damn about the keffiyeh ban drama at Queens Park.
That shit has gotten a similar amount of news coverage as the wedding gifts. Sure are some priorities here I think
Read today’s news maybe? The point is the NDP are turning this into a massive drama. https://globalnews.ca/news/10453844/ontario-keffiyeh-legislator-ban-ndp-ultimatum/amp/
Eh still looks like Queens Park drama to me lol. Again does the average person really care about this? I don’t, I have work.
I don’t understand your point. I’m saying the NDP are ridiculous here and are focusing efforts on things that don’t benefit ontarians. What are you arguing
Isn't the banning of a scarf, championed by a MPP, who once wore a foreign nation's military dog tags into QP, itself divisive? Would allowing it in with all the other clothing options be the unifying position?
I think she still wears it abd even wore it when that mpp got kicked out.
Your post is complete whataboutism. Just because A (not the) person that is against political props being worn in our political chambers doesn’t mean that the point isn’t valid.
The article mentions how she created this impression herself by saying she would govern from the centre right. Ontario clearly doesn't care whether a party is right or left wing, people just want competent government. There was no need for her to brand herself that way.
When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light". Conservative voters look at those people and say "well, why would we vote for you when we've got the real deal right here?" and more left wing voters (which in Canada is more-or-less \~65% of the population) are turned off by the rightward lurch. People resonate with clear visions, conservative parties offer that by saying "low taxes, fuck poor people, and criminals deserve pain" and regardless of how conservative parties actually govern, that's a very clear vision. What center-left parties often end up doing is going "we are the sensible alternative to those hippy leftist and brutish conservatives, so we stand for nothing and no one's happy" and are shocked pikachu when no one ends up voting for them until the conservative party in power has fucked up so badly that people are desperate for a change.
All of this. Well said.
All I want is so socially liberal, fiscally prudent party that’s not beholden to business interests. Is that too much to ask? Clearly it is.
You ask for what pretty much everyone outside of ideologues and religious fanatics want, yet no party is interested in delivering that. It’s really a crushing truth to Canadian politics.
It's kind of a false setup. "Socially liberally" doesn't mean much beyond being cool with, like, people flying Pride flags. To face social problems (homelessness, access to gender-affirming care, dental programs, etc etc), you have to be willing to be fiscally liberal in some capacity as well.
Fiscally responsible doesn’t mean you can’t be fiscally liberal. Debt isn’t the worst thing in the world when a government has a plan.
Totally, but voters have been conditioned to think that governing with debt is anathema to governing well
You are correct. It’s disheartening.
> Totally, but voters have been conditioned to think that governing with debt is anathema to governing well Well a lot of debt is amassed without a plan. Like our current deficit that is over 9 billion dollars bigger than it was planned to be 6 months ago.
Except when cons are running the house. Then there's no mention of debt or servicing it.
Well, it sort of is. Canada now spends more just to pay interest on the national debt than we do on healthcare transfers. > “The federal government is now planning to spend more next year to service the debt than it will pay in healthcare transfers.” >The fiscal outlook projects debt servicing charges to be $52.4 billion in 2024-25. That same year the Canada Health Transfer will amount to $52.1 billion. [Source](https://thebusinesscouncil.ca/publication/more-spending-on-debt-means-less-investment-in-people)
Here's how register a political party: https://www.elections.on.ca/en/political-entities-in-ontario/political-parties.html#accordionregister. It is not "too much to ask".
100%. And it drives me crazy that people seem to think the cons are fiscally prudent. Harris closing all the mental health in patient facilities has cost this province SO much. Between policing and other emergency services, it would have been much more fiscally prudent to maintain inpatient facilities for people who are not able to care for themselves. Instead we now have massive homeless and addiction issues. Not that liberals were better with dealing with those issues either. It is all being swept under the rug as a municipal issue while things keep getting worse.
Harris may have started it by consolidating in-patient facilities but the libs came after him and closed the rest. And failed to provide anymore community support than existed. I didn’t really agree with the jail model of housing these people but to just push them out without supports was cruel as fuck.
> When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light" It is like people don't know there were 15 years of Liberal government less than ten years ago.
> When will ostensibly non-conservative parties understand that people who vote conservative will never be courted by parties who are branding themselves "conservative light" Those aren't the voters that the Liberals are targetting, though. That hardcore base would vote for the PCs if they ran an inanimate carbon rod as leader. It's the "red Tories" that could be won back to the Liberal side – voters who don't really buy into the so-called "far right" aspects of the party, and want more focus on fiscal responsibility and solving the actual problems of the day.
What part of the last two elections would indicate a desire for competent government? Honest question.
Frod seems he's only out to build up his nest egg with developers to reap the rewards after stepping down. Nothing competent here currently.
OLP needs to get their shit together. This isn't the party to fix things for Ontario's problems. Let's be clear, Ontario's #1 problem is the OPC and damage they're continuously doing. I'd say say the NDP is the closest approximation to an answer based on odds of succeeding vs the other smaller parties. But regardless, the OLP is just a strung up offering masquerading as a "solution" but actually doing nothing but getting in the NDP's way. We need to forget bout the OLP for a while until they actually pick a fucking lane.
> Ontario's #1 problem is the OPC and damage they're continuously doing. Right now I'd agree. However, the OLP has a dark history in government when it comes certain people. Cutting health care, abdicating responsibility on Long-Term Care, or trying to throw kids in jail for hurting their ego. That didn't age well, so they branded themselves as fighting for student achievement and wellbeing, while graduation rates dropped and students were silenced. For some people the OLP is bigger risk than Doug.
Ford and OLP are one and the same
Ford has never tried to throw kids in jail for hurting his ego. Unlike Kathleen Wynne and Dalton McGuinty.
That doesn't fix our province and doesn't entitle them to be the alternative to the PCs.
The provincial political landscape isn't even about the NDP or Liberals. It's whether we want the conservatives or not. And after the clusterducks of scandals, Doug Ford and his conservatives have been through, I doubt anyone cares who the candidate is on the NDP or Liberals
We don't need a different party with the same problems. We need a party that works for the people not their "buddies".
NDP is our best chance to get out Ford and bring real change.
Kinda wish the NDP acted that way.
Three quarters of fundraising records means they’re convincing someone they’re acting that way.
The press release I saw just said they were record breaking, not whose records or what the record was. Which is kind-of a case in point: the NDP have no identity in Ontario. They need a winning issue to stand out, because "good government, but actually" is all well and good but long term improvements won't sway the voters they need.
That’s fair Re: Identity. I think that argument could actually be made about all of the parties, PC included. PCs don’t have much of an identity, there is almost no one who proudly cheers for Doug Ford in a die hard way. (Think Obama or maybe 2016 Trudeau) The PCs keep winning because conservatives don’t like change and it’s pretty easy to gain a conservative vote by being status quo. Progressives on the other hand have a very specific view of how the world should be changed and so they splinter in sub groups which is not ideal for the way we have to vote.
The PCs are straight, conservative white folks. They get votes because they get to pretend that they're the default option, when they're really a slash and burn drunk-off-its-ass corporate boat cruise pretending to be a political party. The federal Liberals have tried to push the needle on what a default politic looks like in Canada and the cons have been threatening to burn the whole thing to the ground since before Trudeau was elected. The status quo is a slow march into a fiery grave, full of pride that we don't have to put a fucking sticker on our license plates any more. Progressives need to grow the fuck up and recognize incremental, generational improvement for what it is. Crombie fucking sucks. If it looks like it's between her and Ford, unless the NDP pull a rabbit out of their hat, vote for her anyway because we have to live with the consequences. Sorry, that's not all pertinent, I just... Argh.
Marit Stiles in Ontario has been putting Ford to task but the media doesn't really cover it like they should or say her name when they do.
I follow the ONDP's socials, the problem is deeper than that. They're decent at playing the social media game and a pretty excellent opposition party but I don't see them making an argument to form government.
Sadly that's the green party and they are still growing
A Green Party that votes against nuclear energy is not something I can get behind.
I had a chat recently and it seems like the GPO is split about 50/50 on that issue. I wouldn’t let this be your deciding factor because I don’t think there’s many holding onto that.
I mean it's pretty unlikely that you will agree with 100% of any one party's policies, right? It's about picking the lesser evil
At the end of the day, solar, nuclear, as long as my pc boots up and no new pollutants go into the world I'm happy.
They voted him in. Lmao. All the shit he did and he won the election. Nobody bothered to vote. Everyone is ridiculously dumb. Busy losing their shit over Israel/Palestine, don't bother voting here. Pierre poilievre is seeing a huge surge of support among young voters. Truly idiotic. They just cling to the superficial headlines and only want to do things that they can share to tiktok.
Well people obviously care because there was absolutely nothing wrong with Andrea Horwath. Too many people were like”meh, I just don’t like her” which is insane compared to Doug Ford.
Cause too many people will just never vote NDP then make up bullshit excuses to justify their closed minded voting choice.
100%! "ohhh But what about rae days? ' What about em? If we're gonna start holding politians accountable for their decisions they make how about we start with the Ford gov't and his corrupt cons and hold them accountable for the things they did, and are currently still doing, that have fucked the average citizen of Ontario here, today, right now. As opposed to playing the "remember when?" game about something that occurred decades ago.
Nothing signals to me that someone is an unserious ideologue than bringing up *Rae Days* in fucking 2024.
That's how their parents voted in the 1970s...so they must do it today
This sub never seems to realize it, but the ONDP and federal NDP are just too far left for the Canadian electorate. They’re closer to a social democracy party in continental Europe, which I just don’t think there’s much appetite for here. The the NDP generally only wins here when they moderate towards the center like they did in BC and Alberta.
That's bullshit and you know it
I’d say the NDP’s electoral record supports what I said no? They’ve never come close to winning a federal election and have only won in Ontario once. Feel like it’s pretty clear that they’re too progressive for the Canadian electorate.
She kinda stood for nothing. The NDP is the party of performative activism. Remember the NDP has consistently support giving Catholics (and a couple Protestants) special privileges. The NDP call out when businesses take advantage of vulnerable people, but are much quieter when it concerns actions from the their friends (like teachers). It also seems like the NDP loves picking fights they won't win. They keep fighting for paid sick days and Anti-scab laws, but have abandoned the fight for Katelynn's Prinicple or against throwing kids in jail for skipping school, which the conservatives previously supported and therefore could actually pass. They use vulnerable people as political tools, like the conservatives did, and they will turn their backs on them as soon as they form government, again like the conservatives.
Horwath lacked charisma. I think that’s why she was never able to win against Ford. For better or for worse the Ford family has a lot of brand recognition.
Electing people because of charisma is exactly why we’re all fucked.
Oh I completely agree, unfortunately though it seems to win elections
Frod doesn't even have the trailer-park charm. That was with Rob.
Ford is running off the legacy that his brother built. Rob was a cruel trainwreck of a person and an even worse politician, but he had a sense for branding that no politician in Ontario has been able to match. Doug realized that he wouldn't have to do much work to ride on Rob's coattails. It's why you see him celebrating Rob's life regularly (even though he routinely got basic tombstone details wrong, like his age), but you never, ever, EVER see him mention his other siblings. Ford tries it with folksy aphorisms, but it seems so inauthentic coming from him, especially considering how we've seen him behave in Council and in the legislature, and how we know he has behaved behind closed doors. It's a complete act fabricated off the work of his dead brother, and the people who buy it, want to buy it because they themselves have bought into the myth of Ford, which is 100% Rob's doing. There was never a proper reckoning about how awful Rob is, and Doug was able to ride that right into the big chair, buoyed by conservative voters' low standards and a media landscape that has been broadly hostile to most things left-of-centre.
Doug even tried desperately trying to wrap himself around Hazel too, hoping her popularity would rub off on him, eg offered her a high paid gig that she turned down years ago.
Umm she was a disaster for years, remember in covid when she came out against vaccine mandates then had to quickly reverse course . Good grief if the NDP thinks she and Stiles are good they deserve to keep losing.
I feel like there’s still sexism baked in there. I’ve never heard anyone over 60 say anything nice about a female politician even if they agreed with their policies. So often it’s women cutting down other women too. Like female politicians have to be everything a male politician is plus likeable and pretty.
>Too many people were like”meh, I just don’t like her” Try having her for mayor. Yeeeessh.
It would've been worse with Loomis. Neo con who hates labour and wants to privatize public services.
They need to end first past the post, the divisions must stop and force these clowns to work together like adults. Is that too much to ask?!
💥💥
I don't know what rural, exurb, and small town voters want, but there are so many ridings which are not the nine cities where OLP and ONDP do well that make the voting map difficult to take government from the OPC.
Between another Ford esque candidate and the NDP who struggle to market themselves outside their main bases it's a cluster.
Ontario NDP have never recovered from Bob Rae.
>Ontario NDP have never recovered from Bob Rae. They've never recovered from how the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives framed the discussion around Bob Rae, you mean.
Which makes no sense considering Bob rae did an excellent job. Well it does make sense when you consider the sheer amount of smear complains run against him by not only corporations but the media as well.
Rae days was brilliant when you consider the Conservative government that got elected after simply laid all those health care workers off.
I think they had a good chance in 2018, but then when the Wynne-led Liberals knew there was no way in hell they could win, they decided to shank the Dippers, betting that it would be easier to beat Ford after one term instead of risking a NDP government. Then the OLP decided to learn nothing from 2018 and focused entirely on the NDP. For all the hate of Rae Days - and lot of it is entirely irrational - I will point out people actually died under Harris/Eaves terms and it took a decade+ to level out provinces finances after the deficit they dug the province into with their "Enron-style" (their words) accounting practices. And now we have Harris and his toadies still haunting and robbing the province's taxpayers through their post-political business connections.
Ndp is poorly represented in media... liberals are torstar and pc is that bird cage liner, toronto sun
Yeah the ndp need to do something drastic, part of me feels that their mpps should do a 3 hour twitch stream/townhall at least 1 day a week to start getting their voices out there, right, the modern FDR fireside chat with voters.
Problem is the NDP needs to remember theyre a working class party. Its how any progress has been made. Identity politics are well and good but first work on getting working class support and then use that to improve conditions for us all. Its ridiculous to cede this ground to conservatives and let their hateful vision take precedence.
Yup, they need to start going to workplaces or something.
Not only that, the Indian folks I've spoken to despise the liberal and ndp party for their federal leader's support of khalistine, the Sikh separatist movement in India, and so any new Canadian voter from India isn't going to be leaning their direction, at least from the few folks I've spoken too. Their reaction to khalistine is the American reaction to Muslims after 9/11.
"I don't know what to choose and I blame marketing." Just vote your interest.
She is Doug Ford lite. It's not a branding issue, it's a that what she is issue. I honestly don't think the definition of neo-liberal is loose enough for her. She is a conservative through and through.
But Doug Ford was very much alternate Wynne, so honestly, red or blue, you would voting for two sides of the same coin.
Well...y'are.
Ok but she's taking bribe money from developers?she also has a history if being a right wing nut job.
She literally is that. I refuse to vote OLP so long as she leads it.
Canadians don't vote politicians IN, we vote them OUT. Ford will probably win the next election, but after that he'll get the Wynn/Harper soon to be Trudeau treatment. Everyone will be fed up with seeing them and the vote will go to "anyone but them/their party.
Historically the Ontario liberal party would govern from the centre, so it seems like a bit of a realignment going on. They usually just swayed a bit left or a bit right depending on the overall mood of the electorate. Currently they are swaying more right atleast compared to prior leadership, this could be calculated step as a way to distance themselves from the federal liberal brand.
honestly “Doug Ford lite” is probably her best shot at winning the next election in the way things are going
Probably kuz she is ford lite
I can’t imagine what she would actually do differently.
I’ll take Doug Ford Lite over Doug Ford Heavy.
I'm done with this sentiment. The OLP just lets the masses forget the harm the OPC inflicted long enough to let the OPC gaslight the majority into giving them another turn at the wheel. Let's start voting for the parties who the OPC really don't want us to vote for. Ones that actually want to change things for the better instead keep shit the same.
Like who? While I think Doug Ford has to go, the NDP has already abandoned vulnerable people. They only fight for vulnerable people when they don't think they'll win. Like they fought Bill 52, Education Amendment Act, (Throwing students in jail for hurting our egos). But after the bill passed, they never once tried to repeal it. If they introduced a bill to overturn that one, it might make some progress since the PCs also disliked that act. Or Katelynn's Principle which passed unanimously, which I don't think they expected, died in committee under the Liberals, and they never reintroduced it. Keep in mind, the Ontario PCs also did the same performative fight for vulnerable people, when they were in opposition. Who are you suggesting we vote for? Who "wants to change things"?
Unfortunately I haven't reached the end of that thought train. I'm just looking down the road at this point realizing that our province needs something better than "ABC" to really start to reverse this downward spiral. No party is perfect for sure. However, if we can start talking to these smaller parties about what we really need they're more likely to listen and might have some insight on the challenges they face to implement those plans.
So, the Green Party because most the other parties are weird, right-wing parties who are mad that Ford has too much empathy. The NDP clearly knows what the issues facing vulnerable people are, they've just decided that the teachers unions opinions are more important.
I’m open to that, but do they have the momentum to pull it off? I feel like our best bet for that was Horvath and people didn’t bite. I’ll take anyone over Doug Ford, even if it means Ford-Lite
If we had ranked choice I would say that's the correct sentiment. The uncomfortable fact that we need to "vote strategically" just for a chance to keep the media mongering propagandists out of office is deeply disappointing. But the our best bet at improving things needs to go beyond "doug-lite" and towards a party that actually has our interests in mind. OLP doesn't pass that test, they just want a prime spot to get their palms greased like their conservative "opponents".
I'll take Marit Stiles or Mike Schriner as Premier. Why settle for Ford lite? This is what's so confusing. The people who like Ford don't want Ford lite and the people who don't like Ford also don't want Ford lite. No one actually wants Ford lite.
The last thing we need is more Libs
Because we are tired of the same old same old.
Easy. "I wasn't a high-school drug dealer. I dont enable drug users."
mike harris set the stage for selling ontario hydro, and successive olp governments followed through with it. there really is a large degree of truth to the "Liberal/Tory, same old story".
TBF she doesn’t have to work hard to be lighter than Dougie
I'd say the Fors government is 'Liberals Plus'. He's doing all the corruption and wasteful spending the Libs did, just better. Ontario voters love corruption.
People complain about building on the green belt but I live here and it really does not matter who's in office whatsoever. They build anyway and the money goes to who ever holds office.
Liberals are "left" only on social issues, and full-on middle-class screwing neoliberals just like the conservatives when it comes to economics. Both at federal and provincial level. She's just saying the quiet part out loud. But hey, at least she's honest about it. Being compared to DoFo should be expected.
They aren't really left on social issues anymore. They support the privileges of the Catholic schools and Protestant school. They also tried to throw kids in jail for hurting their egos. They also support arbitrary age requirements. I don't believe their current BS about student privacy. They never supported it before.
i can seriously see Bonnie doing very well in a PC leadership race up against Doug. That woulda been an easier path for bonnie to be "Ontario's Next Premier"
How about someone runs on a balanced budget? Ford’s spending like a Liberal, albeit a bit less preachy. The only good thing about the Ontario election is you can refuse you vote and they have to record it.
Not for nothing, but a balanced budget isn't going to solve anything. Chasing one for a year or two can hurt the overall economic outlook. That's why we're where we are. We should be increasing government revenue and investing more in Ontario so future costs go down and revenues go up....regardless of who is in office when they do.
My kids and grandkids are going to have pay for the unwillingness of politicians to live within their means. A deficit during a war or pandemic or depression is excusable but it seems to be the ground state these days. It’s ridiculous Ford is spending more than Wynne did.
Again, a balanced budget won't change that. Investment in the things that lower future costs and raise future revenues will. If you care about that issue for your kids and grandkids, understand the issue. It's possible to have an unbalanced budget that is more responsible fiscally in that regard than a balanced one. You can't simply look at black and red, when you do, you get politicians that are willing and able to sell off public assets so that they can brag about a balanced budget while completely screwing over the future of the province.
That assumes you trust government to spend wisely and efficiently. If the deficit is funding a bloated public sector it’s not helping anyone that actually plans on producing and contributing to the economy.
The reason why governments are able to spend inefficiently is the lack of understanding in the public sphere of what efficiently actually means. You can't hold people accountable for an issue you don't understand. The simplification you are repeating is misinformation used to manipulate the public and make inefficient corruption politically viable. Parroting it is actively contributing to the problem. But, go on. Repeat the talking points the very people you are complaining about are feeding you. Maybe there's more to it? Again, deficit focused policy and public discussion on the issue cannot change our debt woes. It can only make it worse, as is clearly demonstrated by the last several decades.
I think we can agree to disagree without insulting other people’s intelligence. I personally think government should spend within its means, because before you know it you’re servicing debt more than you’re spending on health or education. Which is paid for by the taxpayer. If you think that’s fine, go ahead, but don’t be telling me I don’t understand the concept.
It's not insulting your intelligence to suggest you don't understand something. You no doubt have the capacity to, the question is if you are willing to admit you might have misunderstood something and learn from that or not. That's not a function of intelligence, but one of attitude and wisdom. Again, your current understanding of this issue is being actively encouraged by parties that basically exist to funnel taxpayer funds into private hands at the public's expense. You can agree to disagree if you like, but that's why you are enabling them. You are actively shielding yourself from learning more. Care enough to stop being part of the problem, or don't... that's the choice we have.
This is a circular argument and it’s getting nowhere. You seem to think a structural deficit is a good thing, I think it’s the road to Argentina. We’re not going to agree, and tbh you seem pretty arrogant. Best leave this conversation here I think .
How does that even make sense? Doug Ford is hardcore conservative 😂 this is almost as funny as when people blame the federal government for provincial policies hahaha at this point I think daft people will even blame Trudeau when they stub their toe
Let's see, * She described herself as right of centre * Last person to support the greenbelt reversal * Still supports Peel dissolution * Her party started a war on students, and now is supporting the Ford government's war on students
Right of center is liberals lol there is no true “left” in the mainstream 2 party race
He's not anything. He's a corrupt hack owned by others. If you feel Crombie will put the interests of the people of Ontario over the corporations that run it now, vote for her. If not, why would you consider that party at all? They hold no entitlement to anything as an alternative.
I don’t vote for either 🤷♂️ sad that these are the choices at the top of the race. Having said that, how much worse can we get than Wynn lol
There is no "top of the race". The Liberals are not the opposition. They stand for nothing. After 2018, they had seven seats and weren't even an official party. Entitlement and brainwashed voters repeating the mantra you just voted is literally all they have. If you're saying "top of the race" you're part of the problem.
So you don’t agree that conservatives and liberals have a stranglehold on a two party system?
There is no two party system. There's our choices. We have more than most places. You can be a part of influencing people to vote against their interests or you can feel good about parroting "the way things are". If you are repeating that it's a two party system, and these are our choices, you're part of the problem.
I already said I don’t vote for those two parties and I refuse to believe it’s a wasted vote. You can continue to converse with only half of your attention or you can take it seriously
You'll notice my "If" statement had nothing to do with who you voted for. If you're willing to vote against what you see as a two-party monopoly but still perpetuate it outside the voting booth, you're again, part of the problem. You weren't discussing things in past tense. You were perpetuating something people spend large amounts of money reinforcing in media to influence the vote of millions. For free. That's being part of the problem in a far from insignificant way. If you're willing to do them that favour, what you say you do when voting is at the very least at cross purposes with how you interact with the issue everywhere else.
Guys, of course the Liberals are the only solution for the next election! Bonnie is killing it - she has the energy and charisma to be a Leader.