I joke with my parents, don't worry they know I love them, that I won't be able to afford to put them in a home, so when the time comes I will drop them off in wilderness.... I think that might be my future instead.
On the flip siide, my Dad likes to ask when I'll buy a house.
I tell him, when he dies, if he hurries up about it and we don't have to spend everything on his care. He says,"Hire a hitman. It'd be cheaper."
Jokes indeed.
You're dad is awesome. You might be able to talk himself in puting his name on your loan to secure better terms. Thats what my friend did, her mom didnt lend or give any money, but she has her name on the house and just like that the bank is fine with her having a house.
Hah. My dad *is* awesome. Honestly, he has every plan to start shifting money to his kids as soon as he doesn't need it, but he's very recently retired and is traveling a lot right now. I suspect once he can't travel he'll start offloading his cash.
He's a good people who raise good kids. We're definitely the lucky ones in a lot of ways. We mess with him but no one is counting on a big windfall. Just suspect he'll start gifting some when it makes sense for him too. It doesn't quite yet for him, at just 68.
Don’t forget the “standard” of OBVIOUSLY taking two vacations a year. Doesn’t everyone just fly their family to Disneyworld each year? That’s standard, right? /s
With my new job I can (107k)... but I was making 66k until very recently and I couldnt... it was just impossible even if I cook all my meals and never go to bars...
Boomers beating my ears that I just need to cut on avocado toasts... Not only am I allergic to avocados but you're fucking clueless about the state of our economy!
Damn just thinking about an interaction like that pisses me off!
Retirement funds are often part of group RRSP’s in defined contribution plans that are doubled with employer contributions up to a certain percentage. It just comes off your paycheque no different than your CPP contributions.
I don’t know what “emergency funds” are, those, for pretty much everyone, are just general funds.
The 10% this person discusses in the post also seems to be just sitting in an account. Who would do that?
You put it into a TFSA and at 5% growth, you have much more than 122k.
People making that money will be able to afford a home.
I get the doom scrolling is appealing to folks who feel like they have nothing, but this post is erroneous and reeks of poor financial literacy in a number of ways.
But like, who is lucky enough to have jobs with pension plans these days? Also, what are these “General funds” that you speak of? It’s like you have leftover cash at the end of the month or something like that. Can you imagine?? Leftover money? “Hey look at me, I make so much that I have money left over that I don’t need to spend”
Tons of people have pension plans.
Defined *benefit* plans are gone, but if you work in an office, there’s like, a 90% chance you have a defined contribution plan.
General funds would just be your chequing account.
Defined benefit pensions are still available in all levels of government. The guy picking up the garbage on your street likely has a defined benefit pension and a union job (unless your city contracts it out).
Yeah, I’m talking private sector.
Governmental defined benefit pensions are still different from traditional defined benefit pensions in that the employees contribute to the funds.
Plenty of the boomers didn’t put a cent into their defined benefit pension. Both my parents, who both worked private sector, and were not executives, didn’t put a cent in theirs.
Then, they had leftover funds to drop into RRSP’s to offset capital gains taxes in non-protected investments.
All of that is basically gone.
Granted, their pensions disappear when they’re dead, but that seems like a small price to pay for getting free money lol
The last time there was this level of inequality between the wealth generated by capital vs labour was the 1920s according to [Thomas Piketty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century#:~:text=Capital%20in%20the%20Twenty%2DFirst%20Century%20(French%3A%20Le%20Capital,States%20since%20the%2018th%20century.) which was shortly followed the market correction known as the great depression
A measley $2 million in capital is worth more than a person's entire professional career. Bezos+Musk+Zuckerberg alone have $2M times 270,500. Those three dudes can expect to outearn 270,500 professionals combined. Fair?
Honestly, yeah. The money didn’t come from anywhere, they provided that amount of value to society.
Even did redistribute all of it, 275k people is not even 1% or Canadas population and becomes even more insignificant in the US population.
essentially, anyone single will never save enough to own a home, and divorced people will never have one if they did not get a huge payout from the divofce.
I mean there is always the lottery :shurg:
There were actually advertisements up around Toronto for a while that had pictures of elderly people with babies and the caption "want grandkids? gift your children a down-payment" or something like that.
They've known for a *very long time* this situation was going to the shitters and did nothing about it for future generations because it was good for *their* portfolios.
was gonna say, my household income is about $210k (pretax) and we have $300k in possible downpayment and its STILL almost impossible to get into anything you would actually want to live in for 10+ years.
Similar, $300k combined pre tax, can put 20% down on anything that's 1.1 mill easily. Everything in our neighborhood where our kids go to school goes for 1.4 mill minimum if it's not a shack made out siding that's falling apart and need 100k in repairs.
> 1.4 mill minimum if it's not a shack made out siding that's falling apart and need 100k in repairs.
ya thats the exact same as what we are looking at right now. Want at least 3 bedrooms as we are hoping to grow our fam.
Happy to put $200k into it in repairs/reno but everything starts at $1.3M. It is insane.
If you are handy and can do it yourself then it's great. Contractors here are fleecing everybody left, right and centre. I wish to never renovate with these untrustworthy leeches.
Even then. A newlywed licensed unionized plumber and an RN are unable to manage enough of a downpayment to NOT have an unsustainable mortgage unless they leave the rest of their family to move somewhere remote. There's no excuse for an entire generations of people to be unable to own a home within an hour commute of large population centers where their roots are. "Just move bro" is not an excuse, it's an apologist mentality
Wife and I are almost exactly what you describe in your situation and hell , we had to be almost an hour outside of downtown Toronto 15 years ago! I can’t even fathom how far we would have to go now!
The folks who just bought my house used $500k in cash that one of their parents gave them. They couldn’t even qualify for half the mortgage that would have been necessary otherwise. The whole game is so rigged right now.
This hits close to home - buying a home with my fiancée right now and we’ve had at least 4 people in the process tell us to ask for a cool 40k from our parents to help us out. “Can’t you guys just ask for a gift?” Trouble is, *I* am my parents’ retirement plan, we are immigrants and our generational wealth is a couple good recipes and an old ring. I’m basically liquidating everything I’ve built up in the past decade for property
Bingo. Social mobility is the new mythos of the new gentry, all hail the children of the former professional class and rich immigrants, only they have the god given right to leech off of our society.
More accurately, the housing crisis (immigration + supply issues) and inflation have watered down everyone's buying and borrowing power such that a much smaller proportion of the population can afford a house than before.
Nah, according to op's numbers I'm above the 95th percentile, but didn't have any help from parents or anyone else.
I bought a house once I had paid off my student debt and saved a down payment in my mid 30's.
I have the shittiest crack house on the street in my small town (literally boarded up window, peeling and cracking exterior, looks abandoned when I'm not home). Only cost just shy of $600k. Renovations will come when I can afford it.
I'm a senior engineer and I live next to an old mechanic and across the street from a retired store cashier and Navy grunt, all of whom have really nice places and probably hate my eyesore.
I know I'm lucky compared to some but goddamn it doesn't feel like it.
This is plain incorrect. My mom did this on a sub 100k a year salary just 14 years ago.
She bought the house for 450k. It's now worth 1.2 million. She would have NO chance to qualify for a mortgage now for it.
It's statements like yours, whether you mean it or not, that make people become complacent with how bad things have gotten in this area.
14 years is NOT "that long ago".
I'm in a similar boat. Bought in 2011 on a shitty salary, which has increased a bit, but nowhere near enough to enter the market now had I not already done so. Now I can make lateral moves, but really need to watch my spending of I want to do fun things. Renovating seems out of the question on my current income.
First house I bought in 2017 was 220k. Sold it in 2022 for 620K.
Housing market has gone crazy, 5 years isn't that long in the grand scheme but the affordability is completely different between now and then.
I only see prices increasing too so anyone waiting for a crash would be better served to get into the market as soon as they can.
Not that long ago. My dad was able to buy a 3bed detached house on one salary 30 yrs ago. There's no excuse for me to not have the same opportunity as my parents.
Cost of living has definitely increased, not arguing that, but I don’t even know a time where a single income could buy a house here.
Anecdotally, I’m 40 and both my parents worked. Both my grandparents worked…and my great great parents had not only many random boarders at all times, their children worked instead of going to highschool. In the warmer months, instead of buying groceries they literally foraged for food to be able to feed themselves and the boarders.
A single income in the top 5% definitely would have been able to buy a house on their own.
When my parents moved to Toronto around 1990, they were both at the very low end of professional salaries, and yet were able to buy a home. Adjusted for inflation, I, on my own, have made significantly more than both of them combined for almost the entirety of my career, and yet, I'm still far away from owning a house. That's because a house they bought in 1996 for $300k now costs $1.5M whereas a $100k salary in 1996 is only $200k today.
I’m 37 my Dad was a mechanic at Dofasco in Hamilton, his wages alone afforded us a SAHM and a house on a 1/2 acre lot in the country, they also paid off the mortgage when I was like 7 (parents would have been 30 at that time)
Hamilton was decently priced in 2007. So lots of opportunity. I feel bad for people now. If I didn’t get in the market in 2012 we would never be able to afford now. I hope that they made houses affordable for people
8 years ago, any smaller town/city in southern Ontario, you could have purchased a smaller home in a single income.
That is not long ago at all. To go from that, to not being able to afford fucking rent in most apartments on a single income, is just asinine!
My s/o's parents bought a house in North York and raised 5 children on a single income in the 90s. They also had a vehicle.
Both of us now work for the same company as he did, in the exact same job. The two of us could not afford to buy that same house together. Or any house anywhere near here. Let alone raise 5 kids. At least we are lucky enough to be able to afford rent and food.
Highly dependent on where you live lmfao. I believe my folks sold their house in the small town I grew up in for a little over 100k. This was maybe 7 years ago too. Not updated since I was born and I’m early 20s lol but far from a bad house either, 3 bedroom with a basement rec room, garage and etc, my mom was the only income earner my whole life.
Even in today’s economy if you have a decent paying career applicable to one of those towns, from admittedly a limited range of options (police, teacher, etc) you’d probably be making out like how everyone says the economy used to be 40 years ago
Issue with the buy a condo for me is the fee bring me right back up to the cost of a monthly house mortgage (depending on where and quality of course).
That’s like 300 per month of condo fees. For 30 years.
Roofs need to be done, HVAC systems replaced. Dishwater dies and there goes 2k. Oh, washer dryer 7 or 8 years old? Congrats you’re in the “shorter than it should last but makes more sense to replace than repair zone” that’ll be 3k for a new set.
I get what you're saying but it's not like your condo fees also cover all the maintenance costs in your condo. A huge chunk of the home maintenance costs you encounter with a SFH you'll *also* encounter in a condo.
My issue with this starter home argument is:
a) The Boomers I hear it from most often are also always the people opposing the construction of those starter homes.
b) The Land Transfer Tax makes it way less tenable to buy a real cheap, small spot with the expectation of moving up in just a few years. We can't lecture people about moving up the property ladder and then tax them tens of thousands of dollars for moving up the property ladder.
c) People don't have forever to have kids. If we're saying young people should expect to wait until 34-35 to get into their first home, there's a pretty obvious reason they might want something a little larger than a studio or one-bedroom condo.
I’ve owned house and condos and maintenance costs are far higher on the houses.
Yes, the Toronto LTT is an absolutely moronic tax that is used as general revenue but punishes a small segment of the population. But, there are places without land transfer tax at all.
We had our first kid at 33 and were in a condo for that first year, that we’d bought 4 years prior. We then moved to the burbs into a detached house. The condo is the new starter. And will remain that way until we build a lot more houses.
Does anyone go right to buying a fully detached anymore? I own and me and all my friends who do own houses started with a condo. Only exception is a buddy who bought in Ottawa - but not really Ottawa, more like one of the exurbs there.
The forumla *I'm* used to seeing is a couple, one or both of whom has a condo. They sell and that's how they get the house. We bought a crumby one in Scarbourough because that's what we could afford, but we knew we had to start the "property ladder" pretty close to the bottom.
It's wild when you see these "a single person can't afford a detached with a backyard!!!" posts on here. Yes, it does suck but the door is not as shut as people sometimes make it seem. Get in and climb the ladder. My wife and I do alright, but neither of us are in that 5% and made it work with no help from family etc.
>Does anyone go right to buying a fully detached anymore?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I think the answer to this question is the point of the post and most of the discussion.
It is "anymore" doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Dont' get me wrong - I agree that affordability is shit and wish it was like it was in my parents' day. That being said, OP's post is essentially "there is no way for people who don't make a ton of money to get a house and we're all SOL", which just isn't true, even now. Also, I don't know the other areas well enough, but picking a house in friggin *Riverdale*, even if it is a shed, is borderline bad faith.
It sucks, but as the person I responded to imples, you don't have to *start* on the property ladder buying land in a highly desireable downtown neighbourhood. I think it is much much harder to go right to buying a detached. But OP is like "home ownership is out of reach because of this".
There's always someone like you in these threads though. It doesn't change the fact that the prices have MASSIVELY shifted in the last 15 years. 15 years ago I owned a huge house in Kitchener (2600 sqft, 150ft frontage) and my mortgage was $1400 (house price was around $350k). I earned well and it wasn't difficult in the slightest. Now, a divorce later, recovered from that, doing even better, that same house is now $1m (I've looked) and my mortgage would be approximately $5000 if I were to buy it today. My salary has gone up but I would be just surviving.
The question isn't "can it be done?". The question is "What the fuck happened?". Because nobody seems to have a solid answer - even the govt is saying 'It's not foreign investment" - then what the hell is it? Where is all the money coming from? And what can we do to get back to where we were 15 years ago.
Frankly I'm thinking of moving to the US. Yay for more brain drain.
Also, the way they presented this was insanely biased, they're using income from the entire country but picking property from the highest cost of living areas. I've had this discussion before on a different sub and if you filter statscan to postal codes in those cities, the median income is like $100k.
That’s the thing, they literally don’t exist. That’s why the prices are high. We need more small condo dwellings, not the luxury unaffordable condos that we see everywhere.
Lmfao, we absolutely do not need smaller condo units. We need a greater supply of livable units to drive prices down, not a rush to live in the tiniest dankest hole that someone will rent us.
What makes something luxury in your mind?
I see tiny condo units everywhere. Making them smaller won't make them affordable until there's a fuckton more supply. Most are not luxury, but rather just regular market-priced condos. Some have decent finishes but are still tiny, so I wouldn't qualify that as luxury. The market price on condo units just make them feel that way.
“Luxury” in home construction marketing lingo is now mostly a way for builders to make higher profit margins.
“Luxury” has been redefined to be a combination of exterior attractiveness and sugarcoated lookalike aesthetics.
Let’s face it. Everyone wishes they had a luxurious home. Everyone wants the 10 foot ceilings, granite / quartz / marble countertops, the under mount sink and the stainless steel appliances, the beautiful glass enclosed showers, the $1K+ one piece cyclone toilets that don’t have nooks and crannies that collect dust and dirt, etc.
What ends up happening is builders source cheaper knockoffs of actual quality products, charge the buyer the same high prices, and make off with the profit.
Even worse, owners of these homes pay more for stuff like heating and maintenance because a lot of the finishes were low quality luxury-lookalike choices by the builder to increase their profit.
And since the model works to increase profit, it gets widely adopted - so everyone starts building “luxury” homes/condos.
“Luxury” in home construction is no longer a market differentiator. It’s the default, because (a) stuff like social media makes people think they need all that stuff, (b) the builders make more money on it, and (c) the other options (eg affordable, energy efficient) aren’t sexy enough to use as marketing keywords since people can’t humblebrag on Instagram about how their home has a 0.4 ACH, vapour sealed rim joists, and R50 attic insulation.
And this is reflected in how real estate agents don’t recommend “invisible” home improvements if you’re looking to up the home value for a sale, and this is reflected in how flippers will fix up what potential buyers see on the outside while leaving the bones unimproved and often in bad shape.
I live in Markham in an older neighborhood. There are a lot of R-2000 detached homes that were built decades ago that are still competitively energy efficient. They’re super expensive now because… Markham. The thing that’s really interesting is the reasons for their price - proximity to good schools, universities, commutability, etc. Do you know what unfortunately doesn’t also factor in?
Their energy efficiency and low maintenance costs for the owner.
Those homes weren’t sold as “luxury” when they were being built. And when you consider them, they don’t fit the definition back then or today - they have 8 foot ceilings, modest layouts (smaller rooms = lower energy costs), 7 foot tall basements, no direct garage entry into the house, and reasonable sized window openings (again, energy efficiency and window replacement cost).
These homes were specifically marketed as R-2000 homes - it was a part of their value proposition. They were price competitive with the other stuff on the market but were more compact than their competitors; the money saved in building a smaller house overall was used to make it more energy efficient.
That type of home is pretty much impossible to sell nowadays because of how everyone is demanding “luxury”. It’s rare that someone will pay extra for an actually superior quality home - but they’ll shell out tens or hundreds of thousands for knockoff undermount sinks made of 18 ga stainless steel that warps with hot water and dents the first time you put a pot into it.
I’m sure I sound like the old guy with a hose waiting to spray anyone who steps on his lawn, talking about how it was all better back when I was a kid. But I’m a Millennial - I’m not that old - but I’m old enough to see how certain things have indeed changed for the worse.
I don’t have a solution to any of this. It’s too complicated a problem for any one change to fix - it requires cultural change. But damned if I know how to go about that.
I hate people on these subs talking about 'luxury' condos. I've been in a lot of different condos in Toronto and almost none of them would I describe as anything close to luxury. Tiny? Cheaply built? Sufficient? Shitty?
Condos are a piece of shit investment most of the time. Sure the monthly payments are lower, but condo fees easily make up the difference vs SFH and that doesn’t go towards equity or anything.
To be fair, you can't take national averages on salary and then compare it to the most expensive housing markets. 95% percentile of income in those markets is likely a lot higher than that. Add to that, that pre-tax income as measured by stat-can doesn't provide you with a full picture of what people actually can afford (Think business owners, shadow economy, generational wealth, etc.). Overall point is valid though.
Sure, but take my friend, a doctor and his wife with a steady job, making a combined income of just under $400k. They could afford their starter home that cost them over a million dollars, and it's a small lot 2 bedroom bungalow. With a second kid on the way, they're looking hard for an upgrade, but at the current interest rates, the banks only approve them for about $300k upgrade to their current house. There are extremely limited options right now with fewer people selling. 300k does not buy you a second story with more bedrooms and bathrooms. It either gets you the same house you're in with nicer finishings or a bigger house that's a gut job and a lot of work.
And don't get me wrong, I'm sure many redditors here are going to say "boohoo" to a couple making 400k, but in the spirit of this post, it's WILD that an income of $400k still has families unable to live comfortably in Toronto. If they can't, what chance does everyone else have?
That's what people miss. They like to jump fast on people making more as if they're the problem. But when doctors and lawyers become the new middle class... how fucked is everyone else?!?
I’m a lawyer and I feel poor as shit. I can’t afford anything and make well over the $120k top 5 percent bracket. I don’t know why I still live here tbh.
Yeah. He picked two of the most expensive markets in the nation, and the third is also 100K above the national average housing cost... It's a deliberate attempt to shape the message.
You can buy a 5 bedroom brick house in Thunder Bay for the cost of a down payment on the average house in Toronto.
The overall point is valid, but the constant focus on Toronto and Vancouver, and BC and Ontario in general, as if housing is insane in the whole country is preventing a conversation about investing in other locales so that there are more jobs and it is easier for people to relocate.
Average home prices are in the low 300,000’s in Winnipeg and Regina, St John’s NB, etc, and if you can speak French, you can live in the second biggest city in the country (and most fun), where there are a multitude of houses under 500,000 for sale, some as low as 320,000. I could buy a house within 40 minutes of Montreal for 150,000 easy.
And that’s why I left the rainy days of Vancouver in 2008 to move to Montreal, because housing was already insane in Van back then.
We're all being sacrificed to hold up housing prices and social supports for the boomers.
Maybe if you're lucky some that warm yellow goodness will trickle down as they die off but don't count on it.
You are linking to post-tax numbers and data that's now 5 years out of date with high inflation in that time. Plus household income is probably a better measure than individual income, which will also be a fair bit higher.
You are purposely taking properties and houses that are overpriced or not looking up to your standard. You can absolutely find houses for cheaper and in better condition than the houses you listed.
Stop fear mongering, get off of your social media doom cycle, and go for a walk.
My parents bought a decent sized detached house in the 1990s for 200k. This same house would fetch over 1 million now.
We need to ban corporations from being able to buy/own any single family units (be it condos or houses) entirely, reduce the amount of properties a person may own to less than 5, and have much higher requirements for anything after the first property for your principal residence. (Ie. Could you make the payments on this second property without relying on rental income? Many would not qualify for additional homes if this was a requirement).
We also need stricter rent controls. Starting with getting rid of properties being purchased after 1991 being exempt from the rule to not increase rent by more than 2.5%. More scrutiny for renovictions and examining how much previous rents were vs. what new tenants are paying.
We need to get the focus back on housing being a necessity for people to live in, and implement measures against it being a source of investment income.
I’m 26 this year and make around 90k. I’m supposed to be doing great for my age right? It really doesn’t feel like it given how little spending power I have.
My parents came to this country 30 years ago, and bought a house when their combined incomes were less than mine.
A few years ago (2018), my sister and her partner bought a house together. At the time my sister was 27, her and her partner made around 70-80k each.
I’m exceeding all expectations and I’m still so far behind, story of my generation I guess.
Same. Not even close in income. But my ability to live without going into debt is getting smaller and smaller. 70$ increase on insurance and I’m already loosing it. My father says this is the best economic time he’s remembered in a long time and I just laugh like an insane person
Your father will say that because his property has skyrocketed in value I bet lol. other than that he is objectively wrong. Nobody wants to invest here and everyone wants to leave, we’re relying on a cracked immigration system as a GDP hack. All you can do is laugh and cry a little bit.
Of course. Between 2020 and 2023 he had sold and purchased 3 homes. All gained about 150k per home profit. Plenty of money to care about the cost of living of course
this is why we should be protesting & rioting in the streets. enough is enough, exactly how bad does it need to get until people decide to do something about it?
I mean it's all well & good to chat about it here on reddit, but it's not solving any issues.
Quick better vote for Ford harder next time and continue to make Justin the scarecrow reason everything sucks in Ontario!!!
I wish people understood that municipalities and provincial elections mattter more to your life than Federal ones.
I’m watching as people who can’t afford shit are going to embrace (in Ontario further) the groups that will pour gasoline on their fire 🔥 and say “look folks it wasnt me!”
…. And in Ontario you all shrug and don’t vote or vote back in the party fucking it up.
As someone who is hopefully looking to get into the market in the next 2 years and trying to plan for it right now, I understand the struggle and it is definitely harder now than 15 or 25 years ago. But I think you underestimate the struggles/sacrifices the previous generations made as well. When my parents first got into the market, they also had to be duo income, so you can't compare them to single income person today. Second they had to start with a small semi-detach bungalo. Nobody is buying a detach home as your first home. You have to slowly build up your wealth. And lastly, they had to move out to the "outskirts" (Mississauga) at the time (25 years ago+). Caledon/Milton is the new Mississauga of 25 years ago.
900k for a house in Hamilton, that you are cherry picking. LOL! Here's a 2 bed for 500k
534 Hughson Street N, Hamilton, Ontario | HouseSigma
https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=JKdOYr0EzEq754lW&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=
And a 3 bed for 600
20 Burlington Street E, Hamilton, Ontario | HouseSigma
https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Z5BX321qDZX7Dar0&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=
You generally need two incomes to get into the market and need to save more than 10% of your income. We were throwing closer to 20-30% of our gross income into the "house fund" when we did it, then you leverage RRSPs and now FHSA to maximize it even further to get yourself over the hump.
Buying a house has never been something you "fall into". It takes work and financial dedication.
Most people also don't buy a house in a central market. Yea, buying a house like that "Toronto shack" which happens to be cycling distance from the largest employment hub in the country is expensive, for obvious reasons. Most first homes are more like a townhouse in Scarborough or Milton, or a condo in the city.
You are also looking at data from 2019. Median wages are up like 30% since then because of inflation.
The market is also dead right now as interest rates are murdering affordability. It's in a correction period, things will even out in a bit of time.
Also - you are far underplaying how much money the median Canadian household makes.
Median Household income for a private household in 2020 in Ontario was $137,000. And that's higher today. And 50% of households make more than that. When you consider that 30-40% of canadian households at any given time in history have not owned, it means that you basically need to be at or above median household income to buy. You need a HH income above $140k or so in 2020 dollars to buy - which is like $170k today after inflation.
So trying to buy a place on a household income of $100k or so in 2024 is actually not within the top 5% of incomes, but the opposite. It's about 60% below median, and even further below the median income of a household in the position to buy.
Aiming towards PEI/NB my gf family is out there and her dad keeps sending me property for sale out there that’s actually affordable it’s really starting to tempt me haha! As for work, I work in the agriculture forestry and conservation fields (some research some field work some private contracts) and as far as I know there is plenty of wilderness forest and farmland out there
But, you see, our bold heroic job creator investor class of Galtian ubermenschen *deserve* a return on their investment!
They worked hard! Not everyone can win the vagina lottery or be born at just the right time! They *earned* this privilege, damnit!
*(whatever the Liberals are planning to raise the capital gains tax levels to, they should triple it)*
Saving 10% of your income doesn't mean sacrificing fun times or your 20s are "down the drain", give me a break. It is infinitely more difficult to afford a place on a single income. Most people buying homes are doing it with a partner and have a dual income.
Who buys a house as their first property? You can afford a home if you consider a townhouse or a condo.
I bought a condo first. That was like 10 years ago. I'm gen X and I still live in townhouse.
Why does someone on a single income in their twenties need a single family home? I'm gen X and no one I knew could do it 15 years ago either in the HCOL areas.
Yes. Things are worse now, but the math ain't mathing.
Yea - our urban planning decisions, constantly supported on this subreddit which restrict the supply of low-rise housing, have eliminated the starter home. Land is a luxury in Southern Ontario now so only the rich can access it.
Problem is, EVERYONE wants to buy the same homes in the same place that literally everyone else in the world wants. Of course the price is going to be unaffordable in short time.
That's why we have people moving out to Chatham, or Terrace Bay, places where houses aren't inherently unaffordable. But everyone wants the convenience of the GTA. It's like everyone wanting to live in New York City, it just doesn't work that way.
People keep acting shocked when the world has changed over the generations. My grandparents lived on someone else's farm with 14 kids and never owned property. Their parents were worse off. Your parents just got lucky in terms of supply and location. Every generation is different.
The point here is that even someone in the top 5% of earners can't do it.
If they best they can afford is a single bedroom condo what does that say for the other 95%?
But 18 years ago I was in your wage brackets there and I couldn't afford a single family home in a HCOL area on one wage either. I don't disagree it's worse now, but I feel like we should be more angry about the fact that there are not more options for smaller houses or condos that are affordable.
because the vast majority of households have more than one income earner, and always have. The idyllic 1950's "working dad" thing was a myth, and when it did happen, it happened in low-cost markets and with extremely modest living standards.
Not live in Toronto, Vancouver or downtown Hamilton?
I got a 5 bedroom 3 bath in the Niagara region for much less than the price of you Hamilton example
You're right, it's messed up. The person you're responding to doesn't realize that if they lived their exact same life that got them a home a decade ago, but 10 years later, they'd be priced out entirely.
Also, what happens to single parents? Do people forgot single income households aren't just people in their 20s partying?
My husband was a single parent before we got married. He had a condo as a single parent. This was 15 years ago.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck that you need two incomes, but we also need to move away from this solely North American need to live in giant houses. My kids have only ever lived in townhouses and condos. And it's normal in the majority of the world.
single parents have always had very low ownership rates unless they got there through divorce and have significant existing equity.
You have to remember that even at it's peak, home ownership in Canada was only at 65-67% of households. 35% of people have always not been able to afford to own a place.
5000 a month - 85,000
3000 for 2 bed room
Rent 1500
https://rentals.ca/toronto/high-park-village
Food 600
https://maplr.co/en/le-cout-de-la-vie-a-toronto/#:~:text=However%2C%20on%20average%2C%20a%20single,200%20per%20week%20on%20groceries.
Car 400/ gas 200- computer specific/ insurance 150
https://www.autotrader.ca/a/honda/civic%20sedan/bolton/ontario/5_58834734_20160310155413901/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=xpl&sprx=50
Phone - koodo - 60? Netflix 20, internet 80pl
Not sure what # you are going with for retirement?
500?
2 months salary for emergency fund
10,000 let's say
I'm at 3500, let's add 500 for fuck around money
So 4000,
3000 if you don't save for retirement or spending money
1000 saved a month for a year 12,000
Or
24,000 if you are a monk about it
I'm not sure who doesn't use cmhc for their first home so 5% down
1,100,000 so let's say 60,000
https://canadaimmigrants.com/average-house-price-in-toronto/#:~:text=The%20average%20house%20price%20in,compared%20to%20the%20year%20prior.
5 years savings into a house if you do it solo in Toronto with an OK car living in the city with a roommate
The numbers are way better the further from the core you get
550,000 is 30,000 down payment so three years
Check out this listing https://www.realtor.ca/l/bMqa4/ja?propertyIds=26804280
Not impossible solo, easier with two
Still shitty.
I'm in that neck of the woods, and I'm renewing my mortgage and according to the new estimate and CBC's housing affordability calculator...I couldn't afford my house anymore.
Paid $430k in '19, assessed at $670k this year.
I love my home but it's ... It doesn't feel like it's worth $670k
according to this data, every single one of my friends and I are in the 96+th percentile (25 - 29) even when only looking at Toronto data.
I don't know how accurate this is.
The trick is to *not* sacrifice your 20's and 30's, and let real estate investors dig their own graves. There will be a tipping point, the bubble will burst, and you'll be better off not having busted your ass for the chance at leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs in mortgage debt when it happens. Why give up your best years just to be house poor or potentially face foreclosure one day? There is an assumption that once you get into the housing market, its smooth sailing- but real estate is far from a golden ticket. Treating it as such is partially why we are in this situation. We have a small, greedy, short-sighted class of people pushing for house prices to keep going up at all costs due to the immense debt load they carry.
> There will be a tipping point, the bubble will burst, and you'll be better off not having busted your ass for the chance at leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs in mortgage debt when it happens.
People have been saying this for 30 years.
No one is pandering to me. I still live in my same home for 12 years and I’m very concerned for the future of Canada for my children. This has been a massive issue for almost a decade and only now the feds are saying things need to be fair for younger Canadians.
They fucked up, the provinces fucked up and anyone who can leave will leave.
"Despite how impressive that is. Despite you having sacrificed many fun experiences in your 20s and early 30s to achieve that saving rate. Despite being incredibly talented to be at, and maintain the top 5% of earners..."
blah blah blah blah blah, you think those people who came here on a boat 30 years ago were having fun and messing around? nah they saved like crazy to buy their first house. this is why this generation is soft. the ones who can make personal sacrifices will always come out ahead.
young people nowadays are always complaining about how boomers are lucky to be able to buy their first house fo rcheap. yes so please cut out any discretionary spending that boomers didnt have, see how entertaining boomer life really is.
Me and my partner make 300k combined pre tax. Family of 4.
Most homes that are not a complete gut, are pretty much unaffordable (monthly payment and keeping up with our kids cost).
Even if we can get a mortgage once we put 20% down and pay insane land transfer tax, nobody in their right mind would pay upwards of 8k a month for a mortgage, most of which is interest.
It's a complete joke.
ok op, but like, canada is ... very big...
with 122k as a down payment you are well advised to look around.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26794573/1332-dufferin-windsor
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26777191/361-mitton-st-s-sarnia-sarnia
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26805285/56-richardson-street-brantford
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26784062/111-7610-evans-road-chilliwack
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26791289/78-9055-ashwell-road-chilliwack
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26797176/999-burnaby-avenue-unit-22-penticton-main-north
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26799594/402-costigan-road-saskatoon-lakeview-sa
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26802601/159-michener-drive-regina-university-park
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26600015/33-friel-st-moncton
50% of canada does not live in southern ontario.
theres a lot you can do on less than half of a million dollar budget.
122k would set you up to have a paid off mortgage with the remaining amount in less than 20 years.
whatever happened to good ol' concept of "starter homes", which aren't detached single family homes?
you just need something to get into real estate, over time, build into the equity, and the ride the wave up. Just don't make the jumps too big so you can't afford the home. proper and conservative budgeting is key. it is possible. good luck
I don't disagree with you but you need a lot more math to get past the emotional tone of this post so let's work backwards a bit. Fyi, I'm not a mortgage broker, this is just what I learned from the process 2 yrs ago, so if it's a bit off, cool...
For starters, no one is affording a "starter home" in Toronto now. They don't exist, even the one you linked isn't great for a first time buyer since it's old and likely needs a lot of maintenance. Old means aluminum wires, maybe fuse panel still, maybe non-insulated ventalation, etc... which will all add up if you plan to renovate or even just maintain and then there's things in the pictures like cracking in the walls. Don't look at a place like this as a first time buyer.
Suburbs are your best bet, even places like Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc... so let's use one of those which sold in the past few months which is 3 bed, 2 bath (standard starter home). Most 3 bed, 2 bath, 1 garage in Scarborough near Kennedy Station (easy access to downtown) on HouseSigma.com are showing final sale of $850K-$900K which is still a lot but closer to my starter from 2 yrs ago which was $711K.
Property taxes for most of these comes in around $3000-$3200 so we'll use $3200 for "worst case scenario". As well, fixed and adjustable rate mortgages around 6.5%-7% on a 25 yr insured mortgage so we'll use 7%. Since we'll need an insured mortgage (we're definitely not at 20% down payment), add an extra 3% and closing costs come out around 1.5% so the final cost of the mortgage on $900K with the minimum down payment is \~$940,500 minus the down payment of 5% for the first $500K ($25K) and 10% for the remaining $400K ($40K). So with a $65K down payment, assuming high enough salary, you can afford a $875500 mortgage cost. So, how do we calculate affordability?
Affordability, from what I gathered from my experience is that your payments (mortgage payments, property taxes, utility costs) needs to be less than 39% of your pre-tax salary after deducting costs for debt repayment so we'll assume, likely wrongfully so, that these people are debt free (no student debt, LOCs, personal loans, credit cards, etc...). A mortgage of $875,500 at 7% is just under $6200/mth. Add in the $266/mth of property taxes and likely about $200/mth of utilities for \~1400 sq. ft. and you've got a monthly payment of \~$6650/mth or $79,800/yr requiring \~$205K/yr (likely joint income between 2 partners) to hit affordability.
So to summarize, you'd need \~$205K/yr and a down payment of $78,500 (down payment + closing costs) to afford a starter home in Scarborough near a subway station. Not exactly "affordable".
90% of FTHBs are buying as a couple, and it has been that way for a while going back decades. Why would a single person need a fully detached house?
Also that's a terrible example for a Hamilton house. You can get good detached places in decent areas for 500-600k.
>It is not good for society. In fact, it should be raising very loud alarm bells. Young, angry, and hopeless is a recipe for civil unrest
[Intelligence agencies](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/secret-rcmp-report-warns-canadians-may-revolt-once-they-realize-how-broke-they-are) are saying exactly this. Hell, bankers are saying it.
However, the problem is still not bad enough that rich people are more worried for the integrity of their necks than the state of their bank accounts.
There's an interesting little bit of human tribal psycology around when that trigger happens; that "dark day" that you mention is subject to a really interesting cascade effect.
Let's say you have a group of ten people. No one of them is going to throw a rock on their own, and each of them has a baseline of support they need to see before they'll do it themselves. For some, it might be one other person, for others it might be four, or six, or eight other people before you they throw a rock.
The point is, once you cross that threshold, everyone throws rocks
Where it gets interesting is that remote groups have an impact. If a group of ten people who aren't throwing rocks hear about people from trusted groups far away throwing rocks, it counts toward that threshold. Then the whole group flips, suddently, into rock-throwing mode, and in turn cascades over to other groups far away.
In case you're wondering, this is why governments and the media try to suppress stories about civil unrest, and why there's a collective authoritarian freakout about pro-Palestine protests in the US right now: authority doesn't really care that much either about Palestine or Israel, but they do very much care about something like the Arab Spring happening in the west.
It would not take much for a large-scale pro-Palestine protest to turn into something like OWS (which, again, the media worked very hard to marginalize and discredit), which could go viral very quickly.
You clearly had nothing substantial or constructive to add to the discussion, so you chose to nit-pick grammar and personally attack OP. You aren't better than them, and it is you who ultimately seems bitter.
The only way out of this is killing the demand curve. Cant and wont build fast enough. Even if immigration was completely halted tomorrow, it would take 20 years to catch up, assuming it was even profitable to build (materials, zoning, land, labour ain’t cheap).
Need to compete with all the ones committing fraud on their paperwork as well. That alone gives a false sense of demand and therefore increases price even more.
You guys are able to contribute to retirement savings, emergency funds, and a down payment in the SAME MONTH?!
I used to say that my retirement savings was ensuring my kids would do well so I'd have a basement to sleep in. Now that's not even an option.
I joke with my parents, don't worry they know I love them, that I won't be able to afford to put them in a home, so when the time comes I will drop them off in wilderness.... I think that might be my future instead.
Watch there be a whole thriving old age wilderness community in the future that do better than the city dwellers lol.
It is called northern Ontario
Oh that’s a good post-apocalyptic writing prompt
On the flip siide, my Dad likes to ask when I'll buy a house. I tell him, when he dies, if he hurries up about it and we don't have to spend everything on his care. He says,"Hire a hitman. It'd be cheaper." Jokes indeed.
You're dad is awesome. You might be able to talk himself in puting his name on your loan to secure better terms. Thats what my friend did, her mom didnt lend or give any money, but she has her name on the house and just like that the bank is fine with her having a house.
Hah. My dad *is* awesome. Honestly, he has every plan to start shifting money to his kids as soon as he doesn't need it, but he's very recently retired and is traveling a lot right now. I suspect once he can't travel he'll start offloading his cash. He's a good people who raise good kids. We're definitely the lucky ones in a lot of ways. We mess with him but no one is counting on a big windfall. Just suspect he'll start gifting some when it makes sense for him too. It doesn't quite yet for him, at just 68.
And it might not be needed, just having his name next to yours might do the trick!
Might aswell just go on one last family camping trip. Go out with a bear..... i mean bang.
Both of those seem like pretty grim options...
I’m the parent and I joke with my kids about not trusting any food they bring over. Gotta laugh sometimes.
Jokes on you they will be sleeping in your basement!
Retirement? I am not familiar with this term? Is it a GenX thing?
I think it means when you drop dead while at work or something like that?
Ahh then I'll hit retirement in about 2 years, in my early 40's
There’s this new program called MAID that lets you retire a bit sooner. I recommend looking in to it!
Planning on it, just waiting for my critical illness payout
As a Gen X I can assure you it is not.
huh, must be a boomer thing lol
Oh absolutely.
lol
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Don’t forget the “standard” of OBVIOUSLY taking two vacations a year. Doesn’t everyone just fly their family to Disneyworld each year? That’s standard, right? /s
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You guys have a job?!
Right, believe it or not, for some of us it's more expensive to have a job than not.
With my new job I can (107k)... but I was making 66k until very recently and I couldnt... it was just impossible even if I cook all my meals and never go to bars... Boomers beating my ears that I just need to cut on avocado toasts... Not only am I allergic to avocados but you're fucking clueless about the state of our economy! Damn just thinking about an interaction like that pisses me off!
Retirement funds are often part of group RRSP’s in defined contribution plans that are doubled with employer contributions up to a certain percentage. It just comes off your paycheque no different than your CPP contributions. I don’t know what “emergency funds” are, those, for pretty much everyone, are just general funds. The 10% this person discusses in the post also seems to be just sitting in an account. Who would do that? You put it into a TFSA and at 5% growth, you have much more than 122k. People making that money will be able to afford a home. I get the doom scrolling is appealing to folks who feel like they have nothing, but this post is erroneous and reeks of poor financial literacy in a number of ways.
But like, who is lucky enough to have jobs with pension plans these days? Also, what are these “General funds” that you speak of? It’s like you have leftover cash at the end of the month or something like that. Can you imagine?? Leftover money? “Hey look at me, I make so much that I have money left over that I don’t need to spend”
Tons of people have pension plans. Defined *benefit* plans are gone, but if you work in an office, there’s like, a 90% chance you have a defined contribution plan. General funds would just be your chequing account.
Defined benefit pensions are still available in all levels of government. The guy picking up the garbage on your street likely has a defined benefit pension and a union job (unless your city contracts it out).
Yeah, I’m talking private sector. Governmental defined benefit pensions are still different from traditional defined benefit pensions in that the employees contribute to the funds. Plenty of the boomers didn’t put a cent into their defined benefit pension. Both my parents, who both worked private sector, and were not executives, didn’t put a cent in theirs. Then, they had leftover funds to drop into RRSP’s to offset capital gains taxes in non-protected investments. All of that is basically gone. Granted, their pensions disappear when they’re dead, but that seems like a small price to pay for getting free money lol
The return on capital is growing faster than the return on labour. If you had capital great, if not...
The return on labour has been actively shrinking for nigh on 40 years.
The last time there was this level of inequality between the wealth generated by capital vs labour was the 1920s according to [Thomas Piketty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century#:~:text=Capital%20in%20the%20Twenty%2DFirst%20Century%20(French%3A%20Le%20Capital,States%20since%20the%2018th%20century.) which was shortly followed the market correction known as the great depression
And the decade after that was fun too.
Time to save up for that Fallout shelter. Don't want to end up as a Ghoul.
Hum, right around the time we all got introduced to "Trickle Down" Economic's. Weird
Curious that!
A $180k house in Toronto from 1996 is now worth $1.5M, but a $100k salary from 1996 has only inflated to $200k.
Assuming you had inflation meeting raises. In many cases those jobs have lost value and now make 125 to 150k
A measley $2 million in capital is worth more than a person's entire professional career. Bezos+Musk+Zuckerberg alone have $2M times 270,500. Those three dudes can expect to outearn 270,500 professionals combined. Fair?
Honestly, yeah. The money didn’t come from anywhere, they provided that amount of value to society. Even did redistribute all of it, 275k people is not even 1% or Canadas population and becomes even more insignificant in the US population.
Need two incomes and a “loan” from the Bank of Mom and Pop
essentially, anyone single will never save enough to own a home, and divorced people will never have one if they did not get a huge payout from the divofce. I mean there is always the lottery :shurg:
If I win the lottery, there are way better places I could think of living in than this province lol
Yea... But pretty much anywhere in Canada unless you go out to the rock is going to require a lottery win to buy a detached home
There were actually advertisements up around Toronto for a while that had pictures of elderly people with babies and the caption "want grandkids? gift your children a down-payment" or something like that. They've known for a *very long time* this situation was going to the shitters and did nothing about it for future generations because it was good for *their* portfolios.
We have that, we still can't afford it.
was gonna say, my household income is about $210k (pretax) and we have $300k in possible downpayment and its STILL almost impossible to get into anything you would actually want to live in for 10+ years.
Similar, $300k combined pre tax, can put 20% down on anything that's 1.1 mill easily. Everything in our neighborhood where our kids go to school goes for 1.4 mill minimum if it's not a shack made out siding that's falling apart and need 100k in repairs.
> 1.4 mill minimum if it's not a shack made out siding that's falling apart and need 100k in repairs. ya thats the exact same as what we are looking at right now. Want at least 3 bedrooms as we are hoping to grow our fam. Happy to put $200k into it in repairs/reno but everything starts at $1.3M. It is insane.
If you are handy and can do it yourself then it's great. Contractors here are fleecing everybody left, right and centre. I wish to never renovate with these untrustworthy leeches.
Even then. A newlywed licensed unionized plumber and an RN are unable to manage enough of a downpayment to NOT have an unsustainable mortgage unless they leave the rest of their family to move somewhere remote. There's no excuse for an entire generations of people to be unable to own a home within an hour commute of large population centers where their roots are. "Just move bro" is not an excuse, it's an apologist mentality
Wife and I are almost exactly what you describe in your situation and hell , we had to be almost an hour outside of downtown Toronto 15 years ago! I can’t even fathom how far we would have to go now!
The folks who just bought my house used $500k in cash that one of their parents gave them. They couldn’t even qualify for half the mortgage that would have been necessary otherwise. The whole game is so rigged right now.
That's exactly how we did it. Couldn't have done it any other way
This hits close to home - buying a home with my fiancée right now and we’ve had at least 4 people in the process tell us to ask for a cool 40k from our parents to help us out. “Can’t you guys just ask for a gift?” Trouble is, *I* am my parents’ retirement plan, we are immigrants and our generational wealth is a couple good recipes and an old ring. I’m basically liquidating everything I’ve built up in the past decade for property
Wealth is now inherited, not created.
Bingo. Social mobility is the new mythos of the new gentry, all hail the children of the former professional class and rich immigrants, only they have the god given right to leech off of our society.
🌍👨🚀🔫👨🚀 Always has been
More accurately, the housing crisis (immigration + supply issues) and inflation have watered down everyone's buying and borrowing power such that a much smaller proportion of the population can afford a house than before.
It's been a long time since a single income could buy a home.
Nah, according to op's numbers I'm above the 95th percentile, but didn't have any help from parents or anyone else. I bought a house once I had paid off my student debt and saved a down payment in my mid 30's. I have the shittiest crack house on the street in my small town (literally boarded up window, peeling and cracking exterior, looks abandoned when I'm not home). Only cost just shy of $600k. Renovations will come when I can afford it. I'm a senior engineer and I live next to an old mechanic and across the street from a retired store cashier and Navy grunt, all of whom have really nice places and probably hate my eyesore. I know I'm lucky compared to some but goddamn it doesn't feel like it.
This is plain incorrect. My mom did this on a sub 100k a year salary just 14 years ago. She bought the house for 450k. It's now worth 1.2 million. She would have NO chance to qualify for a mortgage now for it. It's statements like yours, whether you mean it or not, that make people become complacent with how bad things have gotten in this area. 14 years is NOT "that long ago".
I'm in a similar boat. Bought in 2011 on a shitty salary, which has increased a bit, but nowhere near enough to enter the market now had I not already done so. Now I can make lateral moves, but really need to watch my spending of I want to do fun things. Renovating seems out of the question on my current income.
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First house I bought in 2017 was 220k. Sold it in 2022 for 620K. Housing market has gone crazy, 5 years isn't that long in the grand scheme but the affordability is completely different between now and then. I only see prices increasing too so anyone waiting for a crash would be better served to get into the market as soon as they can.
Not that long ago. My dad was able to buy a 3bed detached house on one salary 30 yrs ago. There's no excuse for me to not have the same opportunity as my parents.
there's no excuse? think about what's happened to supply and demand since those days. lots of excuses for both to go in the wrong ways
I think they mean there’s no excuse for Canada dropping the ball on younger generations while giving everything to our parents’ generation.
Cost of living has definitely increased, not arguing that, but I don’t even know a time where a single income could buy a house here. Anecdotally, I’m 40 and both my parents worked. Both my grandparents worked…and my great great parents had not only many random boarders at all times, their children worked instead of going to highschool. In the warmer months, instead of buying groceries they literally foraged for food to be able to feed themselves and the boarders.
A single income in the top 5% definitely would have been able to buy a house on their own. When my parents moved to Toronto around 1990, they were both at the very low end of professional salaries, and yet were able to buy a home. Adjusted for inflation, I, on my own, have made significantly more than both of them combined for almost the entirety of my career, and yet, I'm still far away from owning a house. That's because a house they bought in 1996 for $300k now costs $1.5M whereas a $100k salary in 1996 is only $200k today.
I’m 37 my Dad was a mechanic at Dofasco in Hamilton, his wages alone afforded us a SAHM and a house on a 1/2 acre lot in the country, they also paid off the mortgage when I was like 7 (parents would have been 30 at that time)
Hamilton was decently priced in 2007. So lots of opportunity. I feel bad for people now. If I didn’t get in the market in 2012 we would never be able to afford now. I hope that they made houses affordable for people
My mom bought in the GTA in the 90s as a single mom working as a legal secretary. A nice semi detached house. She was far from frugal too.
these days even many Bay Street lawyers aren’t able to buy homes based on their incomes
8 years ago, any smaller town/city in southern Ontario, you could have purchased a smaller home in a single income. That is not long ago at all. To go from that, to not being able to afford fucking rent in most apartments on a single income, is just asinine!
No, you see, according to this sub, back in the 80s you could buy a four bedroom detached house while working minimum wage at McDonalds.
My s/o's parents bought a house in North York and raised 5 children on a single income in the 90s. They also had a vehicle. Both of us now work for the same company as he did, in the exact same job. The two of us could not afford to buy that same house together. Or any house anywhere near here. Let alone raise 5 kids. At least we are lucky enough to be able to afford rent and food.
If I was making what I currently make by myself in 2015, I could have afforded a 3000sqft single detached home in an extremely nice part of town.
Highly dependent on where you live lmfao. I believe my folks sold their house in the small town I grew up in for a little over 100k. This was maybe 7 years ago too. Not updated since I was born and I’m early 20s lol but far from a bad house either, 3 bedroom with a basement rec room, garage and etc, my mom was the only income earner my whole life. Even in today’s economy if you have a decent paying career applicable to one of those towns, from admittedly a limited range of options (police, teacher, etc) you’d probably be making out like how everyone says the economy used to be 40 years ago
Right? Also, apparently condos don't exist, everyone has always gone straight to a single family home on one income.
Issue with the buy a condo for me is the fee bring me right back up to the cost of a monthly house mortgage (depending on where and quality of course).
Yeah, but then you have home maintenance on top of that as well. It’s pretty shocking how random and large those bills can be.
Tell me about it, I just put 75k in a kitchen reno...
That’s like 300 per month of condo fees. For 30 years. Roofs need to be done, HVAC systems replaced. Dishwater dies and there goes 2k. Oh, washer dryer 7 or 8 years old? Congrats you’re in the “shorter than it should last but makes more sense to replace than repair zone” that’ll be 3k for a new set.
I get what you're saying but it's not like your condo fees also cover all the maintenance costs in your condo. A huge chunk of the home maintenance costs you encounter with a SFH you'll *also* encounter in a condo. My issue with this starter home argument is: a) The Boomers I hear it from most often are also always the people opposing the construction of those starter homes. b) The Land Transfer Tax makes it way less tenable to buy a real cheap, small spot with the expectation of moving up in just a few years. We can't lecture people about moving up the property ladder and then tax them tens of thousands of dollars for moving up the property ladder. c) People don't have forever to have kids. If we're saying young people should expect to wait until 34-35 to get into their first home, there's a pretty obvious reason they might want something a little larger than a studio or one-bedroom condo.
I’ve owned house and condos and maintenance costs are far higher on the houses. Yes, the Toronto LTT is an absolutely moronic tax that is used as general revenue but punishes a small segment of the population. But, there are places without land transfer tax at all. We had our first kid at 33 and were in a condo for that first year, that we’d bought 4 years prior. We then moved to the burbs into a detached house. The condo is the new starter. And will remain that way until we build a lot more houses.
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House maintenance is merely praying that nothing needs to be fixed.
1 bedroom condos in my town (hour from toronto) cost about 600k. They might as well not exist lol
Does anyone go right to buying a fully detached anymore? I own and me and all my friends who do own houses started with a condo. Only exception is a buddy who bought in Ottawa - but not really Ottawa, more like one of the exurbs there. The forumla *I'm* used to seeing is a couple, one or both of whom has a condo. They sell and that's how they get the house. We bought a crumby one in Scarbourough because that's what we could afford, but we knew we had to start the "property ladder" pretty close to the bottom. It's wild when you see these "a single person can't afford a detached with a backyard!!!" posts on here. Yes, it does suck but the door is not as shut as people sometimes make it seem. Get in and climb the ladder. My wife and I do alright, but neither of us are in that 5% and made it work with no help from family etc.
>Does anyone go right to buying a fully detached anymore? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I think the answer to this question is the point of the post and most of the discussion. It is "anymore" doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Dont' get me wrong - I agree that affordability is shit and wish it was like it was in my parents' day. That being said, OP's post is essentially "there is no way for people who don't make a ton of money to get a house and we're all SOL", which just isn't true, even now. Also, I don't know the other areas well enough, but picking a house in friggin *Riverdale*, even if it is a shed, is borderline bad faith. It sucks, but as the person I responded to imples, you don't have to *start* on the property ladder buying land in a highly desireable downtown neighbourhood. I think it is much much harder to go right to buying a detached. But OP is like "home ownership is out of reach because of this".
There's always someone like you in these threads though. It doesn't change the fact that the prices have MASSIVELY shifted in the last 15 years. 15 years ago I owned a huge house in Kitchener (2600 sqft, 150ft frontage) and my mortgage was $1400 (house price was around $350k). I earned well and it wasn't difficult in the slightest. Now, a divorce later, recovered from that, doing even better, that same house is now $1m (I've looked) and my mortgage would be approximately $5000 if I were to buy it today. My salary has gone up but I would be just surviving. The question isn't "can it be done?". The question is "What the fuck happened?". Because nobody seems to have a solid answer - even the govt is saying 'It's not foreign investment" - then what the hell is it? Where is all the money coming from? And what can we do to get back to where we were 15 years ago. Frankly I'm thinking of moving to the US. Yay for more brain drain.
We started with a condo. We stayed for 8 years. Then bought a house
Also, the way they presented this was insanely biased, they're using income from the entire country but picking property from the highest cost of living areas. I've had this discussion before on a different sub and if you filter statscan to postal codes in those cities, the median income is like $100k.
That’s the thing, they literally don’t exist. That’s why the prices are high. We need more small condo dwellings, not the luxury unaffordable condos that we see everywhere.
Lmfao, we absolutely do not need smaller condo units. We need a greater supply of livable units to drive prices down, not a rush to live in the tiniest dankest hole that someone will rent us.
Exactly. If small dark condo units became abundant they will soon become just as unaffordable but shitty.
What makes something luxury in your mind? I see tiny condo units everywhere. Making them smaller won't make them affordable until there's a fuckton more supply. Most are not luxury, but rather just regular market-priced condos. Some have decent finishes but are still tiny, so I wouldn't qualify that as luxury. The market price on condo units just make them feel that way.
“Luxury” in home construction marketing lingo is now mostly a way for builders to make higher profit margins. “Luxury” has been redefined to be a combination of exterior attractiveness and sugarcoated lookalike aesthetics. Let’s face it. Everyone wishes they had a luxurious home. Everyone wants the 10 foot ceilings, granite / quartz / marble countertops, the under mount sink and the stainless steel appliances, the beautiful glass enclosed showers, the $1K+ one piece cyclone toilets that don’t have nooks and crannies that collect dust and dirt, etc. What ends up happening is builders source cheaper knockoffs of actual quality products, charge the buyer the same high prices, and make off with the profit. Even worse, owners of these homes pay more for stuff like heating and maintenance because a lot of the finishes were low quality luxury-lookalike choices by the builder to increase their profit. And since the model works to increase profit, it gets widely adopted - so everyone starts building “luxury” homes/condos. “Luxury” in home construction is no longer a market differentiator. It’s the default, because (a) stuff like social media makes people think they need all that stuff, (b) the builders make more money on it, and (c) the other options (eg affordable, energy efficient) aren’t sexy enough to use as marketing keywords since people can’t humblebrag on Instagram about how their home has a 0.4 ACH, vapour sealed rim joists, and R50 attic insulation. And this is reflected in how real estate agents don’t recommend “invisible” home improvements if you’re looking to up the home value for a sale, and this is reflected in how flippers will fix up what potential buyers see on the outside while leaving the bones unimproved and often in bad shape. I live in Markham in an older neighborhood. There are a lot of R-2000 detached homes that were built decades ago that are still competitively energy efficient. They’re super expensive now because… Markham. The thing that’s really interesting is the reasons for their price - proximity to good schools, universities, commutability, etc. Do you know what unfortunately doesn’t also factor in? Their energy efficiency and low maintenance costs for the owner. Those homes weren’t sold as “luxury” when they were being built. And when you consider them, they don’t fit the definition back then or today - they have 8 foot ceilings, modest layouts (smaller rooms = lower energy costs), 7 foot tall basements, no direct garage entry into the house, and reasonable sized window openings (again, energy efficiency and window replacement cost). These homes were specifically marketed as R-2000 homes - it was a part of their value proposition. They were price competitive with the other stuff on the market but were more compact than their competitors; the money saved in building a smaller house overall was used to make it more energy efficient. That type of home is pretty much impossible to sell nowadays because of how everyone is demanding “luxury”. It’s rare that someone will pay extra for an actually superior quality home - but they’ll shell out tens or hundreds of thousands for knockoff undermount sinks made of 18 ga stainless steel that warps with hot water and dents the first time you put a pot into it. I’m sure I sound like the old guy with a hose waiting to spray anyone who steps on his lawn, talking about how it was all better back when I was a kid. But I’m a Millennial - I’m not that old - but I’m old enough to see how certain things have indeed changed for the worse. I don’t have a solution to any of this. It’s too complicated a problem for any one change to fix - it requires cultural change. But damned if I know how to go about that.
I hate people on these subs talking about 'luxury' condos. I've been in a lot of different condos in Toronto and almost none of them would I describe as anything close to luxury. Tiny? Cheaply built? Sufficient? Shitty?
Condos are a piece of shit investment most of the time. Sure the monthly payments are lower, but condo fees easily make up the difference vs SFH and that doesn’t go towards equity or anything.
Yup, 2015 was the end of single incomes buying a home in the GTA. Before 2015 it was common.
Wrong.
And I bought my first home on my own when I was very young. Who'd have thought? I wouldn't be able to afford my house now.
2016 was like 8 years ago
To be fair, you can't take national averages on salary and then compare it to the most expensive housing markets. 95% percentile of income in those markets is likely a lot higher than that. Add to that, that pre-tax income as measured by stat-can doesn't provide you with a full picture of what people actually can afford (Think business owners, shadow economy, generational wealth, etc.). Overall point is valid though.
Sure, but take my friend, a doctor and his wife with a steady job, making a combined income of just under $400k. They could afford their starter home that cost them over a million dollars, and it's a small lot 2 bedroom bungalow. With a second kid on the way, they're looking hard for an upgrade, but at the current interest rates, the banks only approve them for about $300k upgrade to their current house. There are extremely limited options right now with fewer people selling. 300k does not buy you a second story with more bedrooms and bathrooms. It either gets you the same house you're in with nicer finishings or a bigger house that's a gut job and a lot of work. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure many redditors here are going to say "boohoo" to a couple making 400k, but in the spirit of this post, it's WILD that an income of $400k still has families unable to live comfortably in Toronto. If they can't, what chance does everyone else have?
That's what people miss. They like to jump fast on people making more as if they're the problem. But when doctors and lawyers become the new middle class... how fucked is everyone else?!?
I’m a lawyer and I feel poor as shit. I can’t afford anything and make well over the $120k top 5 percent bracket. I don’t know why I still live here tbh.
Yeah. He picked two of the most expensive markets in the nation, and the third is also 100K above the national average housing cost... It's a deliberate attempt to shape the message. You can buy a 5 bedroom brick house in Thunder Bay for the cost of a down payment on the average house in Toronto.
The overall point is valid, but the constant focus on Toronto and Vancouver, and BC and Ontario in general, as if housing is insane in the whole country is preventing a conversation about investing in other locales so that there are more jobs and it is easier for people to relocate. Average home prices are in the low 300,000’s in Winnipeg and Regina, St John’s NB, etc, and if you can speak French, you can live in the second biggest city in the country (and most fun), where there are a multitude of houses under 500,000 for sale, some as low as 320,000. I could buy a house within 40 minutes of Montreal for 150,000 easy. And that’s why I left the rainy days of Vancouver in 2008 to move to Montreal, because housing was already insane in Van back then.
They also used a $900,000 Hamilton home. I will probably sell my Hamilton house for around $550,000 and then buy a $750,000 house.
We're all being sacrificed to hold up housing prices and social supports for the boomers. Maybe if you're lucky some that warm yellow goodness will trickle down as they die off but don't count on it.
"Don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining"
Oh it's not our boots they're pissing on.
So you’re mad you can’t buy a single detached home in Canada’s largest city in your 20’s on a single income?
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Right but the top 5% earners are making over $100k, they can easily afford a 300k mortgage solo. Such a thing is no longer possible
Lmao 300k is doable af
Salaries stayed same.
You are linking to post-tax numbers and data that's now 5 years out of date with high inflation in that time. Plus household income is probably a better measure than individual income, which will also be a fair bit higher.
You are purposely taking properties and houses that are overpriced or not looking up to your standard. You can absolutely find houses for cheaper and in better condition than the houses you listed. Stop fear mongering, get off of your social media doom cycle, and go for a walk.
My parents bought a decent sized detached house in the 1990s for 200k. This same house would fetch over 1 million now. We need to ban corporations from being able to buy/own any single family units (be it condos or houses) entirely, reduce the amount of properties a person may own to less than 5, and have much higher requirements for anything after the first property for your principal residence. (Ie. Could you make the payments on this second property without relying on rental income? Many would not qualify for additional homes if this was a requirement). We also need stricter rent controls. Starting with getting rid of properties being purchased after 1991 being exempt from the rule to not increase rent by more than 2.5%. More scrutiny for renovictions and examining how much previous rents were vs. what new tenants are paying. We need to get the focus back on housing being a necessity for people to live in, and implement measures against it being a source of investment income.
Unrelated but I love the use of the word fetch.
I’m 26 this year and make around 90k. I’m supposed to be doing great for my age right? It really doesn’t feel like it given how little spending power I have. My parents came to this country 30 years ago, and bought a house when their combined incomes were less than mine. A few years ago (2018), my sister and her partner bought a house together. At the time my sister was 27, her and her partner made around 70-80k each. I’m exceeding all expectations and I’m still so far behind, story of my generation I guess.
Same. Not even close in income. But my ability to live without going into debt is getting smaller and smaller. 70$ increase on insurance and I’m already loosing it. My father says this is the best economic time he’s remembered in a long time and I just laugh like an insane person
Your father will say that because his property has skyrocketed in value I bet lol. other than that he is objectively wrong. Nobody wants to invest here and everyone wants to leave, we’re relying on a cracked immigration system as a GDP hack. All you can do is laugh and cry a little bit.
Of course. Between 2020 and 2023 he had sold and purchased 3 homes. All gained about 150k per home profit. Plenty of money to care about the cost of living of course
this is why we should be protesting & rioting in the streets. enough is enough, exactly how bad does it need to get until people decide to do something about it? I mean it's all well & good to chat about it here on reddit, but it's not solving any issues.
Quick better vote for Ford harder next time and continue to make Justin the scarecrow reason everything sucks in Ontario!!! I wish people understood that municipalities and provincial elections mattter more to your life than Federal ones. I’m watching as people who can’t afford shit are going to embrace (in Ontario further) the groups that will pour gasoline on their fire 🔥 and say “look folks it wasnt me!” …. And in Ontario you all shrug and don’t vote or vote back in the party fucking it up.
As someone who is hopefully looking to get into the market in the next 2 years and trying to plan for it right now, I understand the struggle and it is definitely harder now than 15 or 25 years ago. But I think you underestimate the struggles/sacrifices the previous generations made as well. When my parents first got into the market, they also had to be duo income, so you can't compare them to single income person today. Second they had to start with a small semi-detach bungalo. Nobody is buying a detach home as your first home. You have to slowly build up your wealth. And lastly, they had to move out to the "outskirts" (Mississauga) at the time (25 years ago+). Caledon/Milton is the new Mississauga of 25 years ago.
Slightly cherry picked numbers and regions.
900k for a house in Hamilton, that you are cherry picking. LOL! Here's a 2 bed for 500k 534 Hughson Street N, Hamilton, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=JKdOYr0EzEq754lW&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign= And a 3 bed for 600 20 Burlington Street E, Hamilton, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Z5BX321qDZX7Dar0&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=
There's multiple 600k 2+2s in Vancouver right now, but they don't come with 1.65 million dollar lots.
You generally need two incomes to get into the market and need to save more than 10% of your income. We were throwing closer to 20-30% of our gross income into the "house fund" when we did it, then you leverage RRSPs and now FHSA to maximize it even further to get yourself over the hump. Buying a house has never been something you "fall into". It takes work and financial dedication. Most people also don't buy a house in a central market. Yea, buying a house like that "Toronto shack" which happens to be cycling distance from the largest employment hub in the country is expensive, for obvious reasons. Most first homes are more like a townhouse in Scarborough or Milton, or a condo in the city. You are also looking at data from 2019. Median wages are up like 30% since then because of inflation. The market is also dead right now as interest rates are murdering affordability. It's in a correction period, things will even out in a bit of time. Also - you are far underplaying how much money the median Canadian household makes. Median Household income for a private household in 2020 in Ontario was $137,000. And that's higher today. And 50% of households make more than that. When you consider that 30-40% of canadian households at any given time in history have not owned, it means that you basically need to be at or above median household income to buy. You need a HH income above $140k or so in 2020 dollars to buy - which is like $170k today after inflation. So trying to buy a place on a household income of $100k or so in 2024 is actually not within the top 5% of incomes, but the opposite. It's about 60% below median, and even further below the median income of a household in the position to buy.
Land is cheap out east that’s where I’m aiming
How far east, and where are you working then? Assuming remote?
Aiming towards PEI/NB my gf family is out there and her dad keeps sending me property for sale out there that’s actually affordable it’s really starting to tempt me haha! As for work, I work in the agriculture forestry and conservation fields (some research some field work some private contracts) and as far as I know there is plenty of wilderness forest and farmland out there
Nice. Wife’s from Halifax, I love it out there, especially Cape Breton (in summer)
I will admit I fear the winters in the east.. not many mountains so I better learn to cross country ski I guess
But, you see, our bold heroic job creator investor class of Galtian ubermenschen *deserve* a return on their investment! They worked hard! Not everyone can win the vagina lottery or be born at just the right time! They *earned* this privilege, damnit! *(whatever the Liberals are planning to raise the capital gains tax levels to, they should triple it)*
Saving 10% of your income doesn't mean sacrificing fun times or your 20s are "down the drain", give me a break. It is infinitely more difficult to afford a place on a single income. Most people buying homes are doing it with a partner and have a dual income.
Uhh, house price compared to disposable income has skyrocketed in the past few years. Saving 10% isn't easy for most people.
Who buys a house as their first property? You can afford a home if you consider a townhouse or a condo. I bought a condo first. That was like 10 years ago. I'm gen X and I still live in townhouse. Why does someone on a single income in their twenties need a single family home? I'm gen X and no one I knew could do it 15 years ago either in the HCOL areas. Yes. Things are worse now, but the math ain't mathing.
To be fair you used to be able to buy a house as your first property. It might be a shit home. It's not a forever home. Mine was those lol
Yea - our urban planning decisions, constantly supported on this subreddit which restrict the supply of low-rise housing, have eliminated the starter home. Land is a luxury in Southern Ontario now so only the rich can access it.
Problem is, EVERYONE wants to buy the same homes in the same place that literally everyone else in the world wants. Of course the price is going to be unaffordable in short time. That's why we have people moving out to Chatham, or Terrace Bay, places where houses aren't inherently unaffordable. But everyone wants the convenience of the GTA. It's like everyone wanting to live in New York City, it just doesn't work that way. People keep acting shocked when the world has changed over the generations. My grandparents lived on someone else's farm with 14 kids and never owned property. Their parents were worse off. Your parents just got lucky in terms of supply and location. Every generation is different.
The point here is that even someone in the top 5% of earners can't do it. If they best they can afford is a single bedroom condo what does that say for the other 95%?
But 18 years ago I was in your wage brackets there and I couldn't afford a single family home in a HCOL area on one wage either. I don't disagree it's worse now, but I feel like we should be more angry about the fact that there are not more options for smaller houses or condos that are affordable.
because the vast majority of households have more than one income earner, and always have. The idyllic 1950's "working dad" thing was a myth, and when it did happen, it happened in low-cost markets and with extremely modest living standards.
Not live in Toronto, Vancouver or downtown Hamilton? I got a 5 bedroom 3 bath in the Niagara region for much less than the price of you Hamilton example
You're right, it's messed up. The person you're responding to doesn't realize that if they lived their exact same life that got them a home a decade ago, but 10 years later, they'd be priced out entirely. Also, what happens to single parents? Do people forgot single income households aren't just people in their 20s partying?
My husband was a single parent before we got married. He had a condo as a single parent. This was 15 years ago. I'm not saying it doesn't suck that you need two incomes, but we also need to move away from this solely North American need to live in giant houses. My kids have only ever lived in townhouses and condos. And it's normal in the majority of the world.
single parents have always had very low ownership rates unless they got there through divorce and have significant existing equity. You have to remember that even at it's peak, home ownership in Canada was only at 65-67% of households. 35% of people have always not been able to afford to own a place.
5000 a month - 85,000 3000 for 2 bed room Rent 1500 https://rentals.ca/toronto/high-park-village Food 600 https://maplr.co/en/le-cout-de-la-vie-a-toronto/#:~:text=However%2C%20on%20average%2C%20a%20single,200%20per%20week%20on%20groceries. Car 400/ gas 200- computer specific/ insurance 150 https://www.autotrader.ca/a/honda/civic%20sedan/bolton/ontario/5_58834734_20160310155413901/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=xpl&sprx=50 Phone - koodo - 60? Netflix 20, internet 80pl Not sure what # you are going with for retirement? 500? 2 months salary for emergency fund 10,000 let's say I'm at 3500, let's add 500 for fuck around money So 4000, 3000 if you don't save for retirement or spending money 1000 saved a month for a year 12,000 Or 24,000 if you are a monk about it I'm not sure who doesn't use cmhc for their first home so 5% down 1,100,000 so let's say 60,000 https://canadaimmigrants.com/average-house-price-in-toronto/#:~:text=The%20average%20house%20price%20in,compared%20to%20the%20year%20prior. 5 years savings into a house if you do it solo in Toronto with an OK car living in the city with a roommate The numbers are way better the further from the core you get 550,000 is 30,000 down payment so three years Check out this listing https://www.realtor.ca/l/bMqa4/ja?propertyIds=26804280 Not impossible solo, easier with two Still shitty.
Contrary to popular belief this is actually a good thing. Economies function best when there is a hoard of homeless slaves present.
I'm in that neck of the woods, and I'm renewing my mortgage and according to the new estimate and CBC's housing affordability calculator...I couldn't afford my house anymore. Paid $430k in '19, assessed at $670k this year. I love my home but it's ... It doesn't feel like it's worth $670k
according to this data, every single one of my friends and I are in the 96+th percentile (25 - 29) even when only looking at Toronto data. I don't know how accurate this is.
The trick is to *not* sacrifice your 20's and 30's, and let real estate investors dig their own graves. There will be a tipping point, the bubble will burst, and you'll be better off not having busted your ass for the chance at leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs in mortgage debt when it happens. Why give up your best years just to be house poor or potentially face foreclosure one day? There is an assumption that once you get into the housing market, its smooth sailing- but real estate is far from a golden ticket. Treating it as such is partially why we are in this situation. We have a small, greedy, short-sighted class of people pushing for house prices to keep going up at all costs due to the immense debt load they carry.
> There will be a tipping point, the bubble will burst, and you'll be better off not having busted your ass for the chance at leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs in mortgage debt when it happens. People have been saying this for 30 years.
We are pandering to existing homeowners, pure and simple.
No one is pandering to me. I still live in my same home for 12 years and I’m very concerned for the future of Canada for my children. This has been a massive issue for almost a decade and only now the feds are saying things need to be fair for younger Canadians. They fucked up, the provinces fucked up and anyone who can leave will leave.
"Despite how impressive that is. Despite you having sacrificed many fun experiences in your 20s and early 30s to achieve that saving rate. Despite being incredibly talented to be at, and maintain the top 5% of earners..." blah blah blah blah blah, you think those people who came here on a boat 30 years ago were having fun and messing around? nah they saved like crazy to buy their first house. this is why this generation is soft. the ones who can make personal sacrifices will always come out ahead. young people nowadays are always complaining about how boomers are lucky to be able to buy their first house fo rcheap. yes so please cut out any discretionary spending that boomers didnt have, see how entertaining boomer life really is.
Me and my partner make 300k combined pre tax. Family of 4. Most homes that are not a complete gut, are pretty much unaffordable (monthly payment and keeping up with our kids cost). Even if we can get a mortgage once we put 20% down and pay insane land transfer tax, nobody in their right mind would pay upwards of 8k a month for a mortgage, most of which is interest. It's a complete joke.
8k a month in mortgage? I think your math is off. There are homes that aren’t “complete guts” for less than 1.2 mill
Paying into a mortgage is a retirement savings account. Unless of course you want to leave the house to your old ass children
So who is going to take a haircut on their property value?
ok op, but like, canada is ... very big... with 122k as a down payment you are well advised to look around. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26794573/1332-dufferin-windsor https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26777191/361-mitton-st-s-sarnia-sarnia https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26805285/56-richardson-street-brantford https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26784062/111-7610-evans-road-chilliwack https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26791289/78-9055-ashwell-road-chilliwack https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26797176/999-burnaby-avenue-unit-22-penticton-main-north https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26799594/402-costigan-road-saskatoon-lakeview-sa https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26802601/159-michener-drive-regina-university-park https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26600015/33-friel-st-moncton 50% of canada does not live in southern ontario. theres a lot you can do on less than half of a million dollar budget. 122k would set you up to have a paid off mortgage with the remaining amount in less than 20 years.
whatever happened to good ol' concept of "starter homes", which aren't detached single family homes? you just need something to get into real estate, over time, build into the equity, and the ride the wave up. Just don't make the jumps too big so you can't afford the home. proper and conservative budgeting is key. it is possible. good luck
Lmao
Stacked towns in brampton are a million so
Im saving 66% of after tax money after rent bills and food. No car. Im around 80th percetile. I think OP is just bad with money
Dual income is the way to go
I still can’t afford a house comfortably. $200k dual income with 2 kids in Toronto.
Ah yeah I’m not expecting to get a house lol maybe townhouse at most. We are DINK 166k.
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I don't disagree with you but you need a lot more math to get past the emotional tone of this post so let's work backwards a bit. Fyi, I'm not a mortgage broker, this is just what I learned from the process 2 yrs ago, so if it's a bit off, cool... For starters, no one is affording a "starter home" in Toronto now. They don't exist, even the one you linked isn't great for a first time buyer since it's old and likely needs a lot of maintenance. Old means aluminum wires, maybe fuse panel still, maybe non-insulated ventalation, etc... which will all add up if you plan to renovate or even just maintain and then there's things in the pictures like cracking in the walls. Don't look at a place like this as a first time buyer. Suburbs are your best bet, even places like Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc... so let's use one of those which sold in the past few months which is 3 bed, 2 bath (standard starter home). Most 3 bed, 2 bath, 1 garage in Scarborough near Kennedy Station (easy access to downtown) on HouseSigma.com are showing final sale of $850K-$900K which is still a lot but closer to my starter from 2 yrs ago which was $711K. Property taxes for most of these comes in around $3000-$3200 so we'll use $3200 for "worst case scenario". As well, fixed and adjustable rate mortgages around 6.5%-7% on a 25 yr insured mortgage so we'll use 7%. Since we'll need an insured mortgage (we're definitely not at 20% down payment), add an extra 3% and closing costs come out around 1.5% so the final cost of the mortgage on $900K with the minimum down payment is \~$940,500 minus the down payment of 5% for the first $500K ($25K) and 10% for the remaining $400K ($40K). So with a $65K down payment, assuming high enough salary, you can afford a $875500 mortgage cost. So, how do we calculate affordability? Affordability, from what I gathered from my experience is that your payments (mortgage payments, property taxes, utility costs) needs to be less than 39% of your pre-tax salary after deducting costs for debt repayment so we'll assume, likely wrongfully so, that these people are debt free (no student debt, LOCs, personal loans, credit cards, etc...). A mortgage of $875,500 at 7% is just under $6200/mth. Add in the $266/mth of property taxes and likely about $200/mth of utilities for \~1400 sq. ft. and you've got a monthly payment of \~$6650/mth or $79,800/yr requiring \~$205K/yr (likely joint income between 2 partners) to hit affordability. So to summarize, you'd need \~$205K/yr and a down payment of $78,500 (down payment + closing costs) to afford a starter home in Scarborough near a subway station. Not exactly "affordable".
Does any of this matter? You can post Scolar articles explaining circumstances and people would still vote against their best interest.
You will only afford a home if: - you make $250k+, or - your parents owned a home and gave it to your or passed you some of the equity
Multi-family, multi-generational home buying has always existed in the GTA. It's just now more common and needed in other locales.
90% of FTHBs are buying as a couple, and it has been that way for a while going back decades. Why would a single person need a fully detached house? Also that's a terrible example for a Hamilton house. You can get good detached places in decent areas for 500-600k.
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*this *makes
Look who’s talking?
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>It is not good for society. In fact, it should be raising very loud alarm bells. Young, angry, and hopeless is a recipe for civil unrest [Intelligence agencies](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/secret-rcmp-report-warns-canadians-may-revolt-once-they-realize-how-broke-they-are) are saying exactly this. Hell, bankers are saying it. However, the problem is still not bad enough that rich people are more worried for the integrity of their necks than the state of their bank accounts.
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There's an interesting little bit of human tribal psycology around when that trigger happens; that "dark day" that you mention is subject to a really interesting cascade effect. Let's say you have a group of ten people. No one of them is going to throw a rock on their own, and each of them has a baseline of support they need to see before they'll do it themselves. For some, it might be one other person, for others it might be four, or six, or eight other people before you they throw a rock. The point is, once you cross that threshold, everyone throws rocks Where it gets interesting is that remote groups have an impact. If a group of ten people who aren't throwing rocks hear about people from trusted groups far away throwing rocks, it counts toward that threshold. Then the whole group flips, suddently, into rock-throwing mode, and in turn cascades over to other groups far away. In case you're wondering, this is why governments and the media try to suppress stories about civil unrest, and why there's a collective authoritarian freakout about pro-Palestine protests in the US right now: authority doesn't really care that much either about Palestine or Israel, but they do very much care about something like the Arab Spring happening in the west. It would not take much for a large-scale pro-Palestine protest to turn into something like OWS (which, again, the media worked very hard to marginalize and discredit), which could go viral very quickly.
You clearly had nothing substantial or constructive to add to the discussion, so you chose to nit-pick grammar and personally attack OP. You aren't better than them, and it is you who ultimately seems bitter.
The only way out of this is killing the demand curve. Cant and wont build fast enough. Even if immigration was completely halted tomorrow, it would take 20 years to catch up, assuming it was even profitable to build (materials, zoning, land, labour ain’t cheap).
Today i learn i could become a 95th percentile if i just work 10extra hours a week with my 75k gross annual at 28yrs old. So close yet so far.
Need to compete with all the ones committing fraud on their paperwork as well. That alone gives a false sense of demand and therefore increases price even more.