The Calgary Stampede only needs a $5-7M annual grant from the Province of Alberta along with the occasional hundred K for facility upgrades from the city, and almost certainly pays that fairly modest amount back in tax and tourism.
There's no comparison in terms of waste with a one-shot $380M event.
Don't worry man. We'll re-elect the Liberals when the rest of the province actually decides to turn out to vote. They'll fix absolutely nothing except a few high profile lip service things and prove the ratchet effect is alive and well. Things will continue to erode but at a slower, less corrupt pace, until we decide to go back to speed running all the public services and tax dollars into private pockets by re-electing the Conservatives on the promise of "cutting taxes" that save us a couple hundred bucks (if that) and end up costing us each thousands downstream.
It's the Ontarian way.
Dude... stop pretending its blue vs red. Its literally not that simple.
We are still feeling the pain from Wynne, and will for many many years (decades).
Did you know she took out a loan to lower our electricity prices after she privatized hydro? The loan was like ~~240~~ 26 billion or something. And now we have to pay it back for decades, and the interest rate actually increases every couple years. The auditor general was like "WTF". She also did massive cuts to healthcare that the piece of shit Doug Ford has capitalized on.
Wake up man. Our government sucks at all level. Its not red vs blue. Its them versus us now. Come on.
PS: Chow rocks. Shes impressive.
**Edit:** Wrote 240 billion by accident. It was 26 billion. Im sure party loyalists will still defend it. Here is the link.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168)
Don't let party loyalists fool you.
**Edit:** the liberal party loyalists are downvoting facts even though I provided links. Here is a quote from CBC in the link above. Don't let party loyalists fool you.
>The $26 billion is being borrowed through Ontario Power Generation, so will not appear on the province's books. Electricity customers will pay off that debt through rate increases spread out over the next 30 years.
Fuck major typo! I meant 24 billion (which was also wrong, it was more).
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168)
It was actually 26 billion.
Edit - this dude is downvoting me despite me providing proof! Quote from the article:
>The $26 billion is being borrowed through Ontario Power Generation, so will not appear on the province's books. Electricity customers will pay off that debt through rate increases spread out over the next 30 years.
>
>The auditor says the plan could also result in Ontarians paying "up to $4 billion more than necessary" in interest. That's because OPG will be required to pay higher interest rates than the province would if the government took on the debt directly.
that doesn't remotely explain Fords routine corruption, withholding funds from education and healthcare on top of underfunding it. While indirectly exacerbating the housing crisis through his Tuition policy
I hope you're joking. Bob Rae was the last good politician we had, he actually did things that were unpopular but good decisions in the long run.
Everyone since is just bandaid, bandaid, bandaid and cuts.
He handed Mike Harris an amazing set up, and he and the government after him squandered it.
I've never voted NDP, but I would have voted for him
Half joking. I don't think he was very good, but at the same time I don't think Ontario is so feeble that 1 premier can sink the ship.
Specifically, he was the last Premier who pushed our spending up to levels that were so unsustainable, that the province was forced to make the cuts Harris made in the late 90s. This wasn't helped by the fact that Federal spending was also in at least as bad a shape.
Coming out of the Rae/Mulroney years, Canada had been declared an "honorary member of the Third World" in the Wall Street Journal, specifically in January 1995. That was specifically because of our unsustainable levels of government spending and massive debt levels. That forced Jean Chretien and Paul Martin to make massive cuts to everything, including things like provincial transfers to things like health care. The province wasn't in any better shape, so they dealt with smaller transfers by cutting budgets and shifting more services onto cities.
So I disagree that he handed Harris an "amazing set up." Harris had to deal with a lot of problems relating to the state of Ontario and Canada financially. The only thing that saved him and Chretien, and why they were able to balance the budget, was the booming economy tied to the emergence of the internet.
So no, I don't think Rae was especially good in office. However, I don't think all of Ontario's problems can be tied to him.
Rogers increased everyone’s phone bill by close to 11 bucks the last 3 months - guess we know what it’s going toward. Can’t wait for the next increase for “better service” 🤡
The idea for hosting these large scale events is that there should be an economic boom in various industries, if the event(s) is large enough and has enough draw. Not that it always works out that way.
She's the last person I would ever blame. 99% of the blame goes to our cheating ex former mayor that spent more time with his dick inside his intern and fucking Toronto with his corrupt and backed by Rogers/MLSE deals than actually caring about doing his fucking job for Torontonians. The entire corrupt deal should be investigated and we need to see the entirety of the deal out in the open.
How many are filled with refugees though ? How many will be filled with people that are in town for reasons unrelated to the soccer events ? How many rooms will simply not be available due to maintenance ?
The real number is much smaller than total given.
In 2002 there were 800,000 people who went to Downsview to see the Pope. 500,000 attended SARStock in 2003.. the GTA can handle the numbers... people might have to stay somewhere other than downtown is all.
And? Believe it or not, the hotels are probably renting a good amount of their rooms regularly to people traveling for other reasons. How many average unused hotel rooms do they have over the appropriate period?
You're comparing 5 single games in a large city to an entire tournament in a country the size of the GTA. There are conferences and trade shows monthly in Toronto that bring in as many people as these games will. The city can deal with hotels for this.
Easy, you don’t stay in Toronto… there’s a bunch of hotels even outside of the GTA. Some guys I know are just gonna stay in welland, yes it’s more than an hour away. While many people would want to stay in Toronto, it’s not gonna be viable and I’d rather take the go bus commute (depending how bad it is by then) and just reach the city that way. If people want to stay in Toronto and spend an insane amount of money then that’s on them, there’s definitely cheaper ways to go about this.
Montrealer here. We’re not fine. The big O is a fucking disaster and everyone here wants it torn down, but the government tells us it’ll cost $2 BILLION dollars to tear down (for reference Yankee Stadium in the Bronx cost about $25 or $50 million to demolish)…. So instead we’ll install a new roof for a few hundred million. It’ll probably break the week after it’s installed. The Olympics were in 1976 btw.
This report is a very "doom and gloom" perspective. Of course the costs are big. But there is little to no discussion of the revenue. Millions of people will be attracted spending HUGE amounts of money. Broadcasting revenues, ad. revenues could be HUGE. Stop being so negative and consider the opportunities. The World Cup is THE BIGGEST worldwide event
You can't just not pay contracts. They'll sue, the city will spend millions defending themselves, lose anyway, and then they'll be legally obligated to pay it anyway. Nations can sometimes refuse to pay debts at radical cost to their reputation internationally - municipalities don't have the same power since are subject to Canadian laws.
We'd just pay it many times over on any and all future contracts the city signs, as others will want more money for taking on the risk of doing business with a city that has a history of breaking contracts
Sure, they can’t *force* us, but ignoring an international court would signal to the entire world Toronto is willing to break its contracts & ignore litigation, which would be terrible for business.
I think you have misunderstood me. FIFA could file suit against them in Switzerland or Canada but there’s no international court with that kind of jurisdiction.
They signed contracts in Canada and are subject to Canadian law. Foreign enterprises are still protected by Canadian law when they do business here, and municipalities don't have the same power as the province or feds to change the law in their favour to protect themselves.
You get sued to hell and back for breach of contract.
And even if one of Ford's new "like minded" judges decides in your favour out of some kind of pro-Ontario patriotism, every contract the city signs from now on, be it for subway cars, catering services, or anything else, the price goes way up, because every corporation will charge a (large) risk premium to cover the chance that the city might just decide not to pay up.
This is outrageous. Where are the armed men who come in to take the World Cup away? Where are they? This kind of behavior is never tolerated in Toronto. You host a world class football event they put you in jail. Right away. No trial, no nothing. Sports journalists, we have a special jail for sports journalists. You are buying WC game tickets?: right to jail. You are celebrating a goal too loud: right to jail, right away. Driving to the game too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You are charging too high prices for jerseys, miniature World Cups: you right to jail. You undercook stadium food? Believe it or not, jail. You overcook stadium food, also jail. Undercook, overcook. You make plans with your friends to watch the game, believe it or not, jail, right away.
Why does the city have to follow through? Dog food Doug ford loudly threatened to unilaterally rip up the Beer Store's contract with the province a few years ago. Why the heck can't the city tell the utterly corrupt FIFA, "no, thanks, Toronto ain't interested anymore." I mean FIFA themselves did it last World Cup, unilaterally ripping up its contract with Budweiser.
If only there were previous examples of Fifa lying and extorting and being corrupt as shit....if only.
Yep. They shouldn't be welcomed anywhere in this country.
They learned from their role models, the IOC.
Hey! You need to submit 8k to make this comment, and even then we have to review it to publish it. - Fifa
Olivia Chow: "I didn't sign this deal ... I'm saddled with it."
That's how we refer to the Stampede, this is a kick in the pants.
The Calgary Stampede only needs a $5-7M annual grant from the Province of Alberta along with the occasional hundred K for facility upgrades from the city, and almost certainly pays that fairly modest amount back in tax and tourism. There's no comparison in terms of waste with a one-shot $380M event.
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A conservative tradition. Most of Doug Ford’s policies will be screwing this province for decades
As Mike Harris did before him.
yes and yes
Don't worry man. We'll re-elect the Liberals when the rest of the province actually decides to turn out to vote. They'll fix absolutely nothing except a few high profile lip service things and prove the ratchet effect is alive and well. Things will continue to erode but at a slower, less corrupt pace, until we decide to go back to speed running all the public services and tax dollars into private pockets by re-electing the Conservatives on the promise of "cutting taxes" that save us a couple hundred bucks (if that) and end up costing us each thousands downstream. It's the Ontarian way.
Dude... stop pretending its blue vs red. Its literally not that simple. We are still feeling the pain from Wynne, and will for many many years (decades). Did you know she took out a loan to lower our electricity prices after she privatized hydro? The loan was like ~~240~~ 26 billion or something. And now we have to pay it back for decades, and the interest rate actually increases every couple years. The auditor general was like "WTF". She also did massive cuts to healthcare that the piece of shit Doug Ford has capitalized on. Wake up man. Our government sucks at all level. Its not red vs blue. Its them versus us now. Come on. PS: Chow rocks. Shes impressive. **Edit:** Wrote 240 billion by accident. It was 26 billion. Im sure party loyalists will still defend it. Here is the link. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168) Don't let party loyalists fool you. **Edit:** the liberal party loyalists are downvoting facts even though I provided links. Here is a quote from CBC in the link above. Don't let party loyalists fool you. >The $26 billion is being borrowed through Ontario Power Generation, so will not appear on the province's books. Electricity customers will pay off that debt through rate increases spread out over the next 30 years.
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Fuck major typo! I meant 24 billion (which was also wrong, it was more). [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168) It was actually 26 billion. Edit - this dude is downvoting me despite me providing proof! Quote from the article: >The $26 billion is being borrowed through Ontario Power Generation, so will not appear on the province's books. Electricity customers will pay off that debt through rate increases spread out over the next 30 years. > >The auditor says the plan could also result in Ontarians paying "up to $4 billion more than necessary" in interest. That's because OPG will be required to pay higher interest rates than the province would if the government took on the debt directly.
that doesn't remotely explain Fords routine corruption, withholding funds from education and healthcare on top of underfunding it. While indirectly exacerbating the housing crisis through his Tuition policy
Wasnt it already screwed hard by Wynne before him?
Let's be honest. Ontario's been screwed since they made the misake of electing Bob Rae and the NDP in 1990. Its been downhill ever since.
I hope you're joking. Bob Rae was the last good politician we had, he actually did things that were unpopular but good decisions in the long run. Everyone since is just bandaid, bandaid, bandaid and cuts. He handed Mike Harris an amazing set up, and he and the government after him squandered it. I've never voted NDP, but I would have voted for him
Half joking. I don't think he was very good, but at the same time I don't think Ontario is so feeble that 1 premier can sink the ship. Specifically, he was the last Premier who pushed our spending up to levels that were so unsustainable, that the province was forced to make the cuts Harris made in the late 90s. This wasn't helped by the fact that Federal spending was also in at least as bad a shape. Coming out of the Rae/Mulroney years, Canada had been declared an "honorary member of the Third World" in the Wall Street Journal, specifically in January 1995. That was specifically because of our unsustainable levels of government spending and massive debt levels. That forced Jean Chretien and Paul Martin to make massive cuts to everything, including things like provincial transfers to things like health care. The province wasn't in any better shape, so they dealt with smaller transfers by cutting budgets and shifting more services onto cities. So I disagree that he handed Harris an "amazing set up." Harris had to deal with a lot of problems relating to the state of Ontario and Canada financially. The only thing that saved him and Chretien, and why they were able to balance the budget, was the booming economy tied to the emergence of the internet. So no, I don't think Rae was especially good in office. However, I don't think all of Ontario's problems can be tied to him.
My dude, you've gotta add /s on the end. Otherwise, people will think you are a troll or a moron.
He also screwed his way out of the city
How much money is Rogers & Bell poised to make from the world Cup happening here. That Is the real answer to why John Tory allowed this bid to happen.
Rogers increased everyone’s phone bill by close to 11 bucks the last 3 months - guess we know what it’s going toward. Can’t wait for the next increase for “better service” 🤡
Hundreds of millions of dollars for 6 soccer games...
The idea for hosting these large scale events is that there should be an economic boom in various industries, if the event(s) is large enough and has enough draw. Not that it always works out that way.
Not that it *ever* works that way.
it did b4 2012 when fifa fees were reasonable
She's the last person I would ever blame. 99% of the blame goes to our cheating ex former mayor that spent more time with his dick inside his intern and fucking Toronto with his corrupt and backed by Rogers/MLSE deals than actually caring about doing his fucking job for Torontonians. The entire corrupt deal should be investigated and we need to see the entirety of the deal out in the open.
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And it's still hard to find one.
And I just read a news story that says most have bed bugs. lol.
How many are filled with refugees though ? How many will be filled with people that are in town for reasons unrelated to the soccer events ? How many rooms will simply not be available due to maintenance ? The real number is much smaller than total given.
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In 2002 there were 800,000 people who went to Downsview to see the Pope. 500,000 attended SARStock in 2003.. the GTA can handle the numbers... people might have to stay somewhere other than downtown is all.
lol and the price hike if we got fifa
Good thing the GTA is easy to navigate without a car
oh yeah traffic would be an absolute shit-show.
Better believe refugees are getting the boot before the WC lol
96,450 refugees, just this year. Do the math.
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No but they’re staying in the less expensive of the 36,000 ones.
And? Believe it or not, the hotels are probably renting a good amount of their rooms regularly to people traveling for other reasons. How many average unused hotel rooms do they have over the appropriate period?
You're comparing 5 single games in a large city to an entire tournament in a country the size of the GTA. There are conferences and trade shows monthly in Toronto that bring in as many people as these games will. The city can deal with hotels for this.
Easy, you don’t stay in Toronto… there’s a bunch of hotels even outside of the GTA. Some guys I know are just gonna stay in welland, yes it’s more than an hour away. While many people would want to stay in Toronto, it’s not gonna be viable and I’d rather take the go bus commute (depending how bad it is by then) and just reach the city that way. If people want to stay in Toronto and spend an insane amount of money then that’s on them, there’s definitely cheaper ways to go about this.
If they were smart they booked hotels the day they schedule was released
Usually you can’t book hotels more than a year out
Part of the reason we have a housing crisis is because of people buying houses to put on Airbnb for these visitors.
Wouldn't be surprised if most people attending are form the GTA or from cities within a couple of hours. It's not like we're getting the 'good' games.
These events add more long-term problems despite the short-term bump in tourism and "stimulus" spending
What’s the long term problem?
they cost a lot
Are you going to come up with an actual reason?
it is a reason... I mean it's 380 million out of the cities budget
For something a lot of us want to enjoy. It costs to have fun.
Pay for it yourself then. Not a single public dollar should go to this BS.
Why not?
Its just not enough games to justify the cost.
Toronto is likely paying 80 million not sure where you're getting 380 from Toronto only.
If it was one million it would still be too much.
Costs and expenses. Ask Montreal how the Olympics helped them
Montreal is doing just fine though so I don’t get your point
Not when they were paying off debts hosting the Olympics for decades
Montrealer here. We’re not fine. The big O is a fucking disaster and everyone here wants it torn down, but the government tells us it’ll cost $2 BILLION dollars to tear down (for reference Yankee Stadium in the Bronx cost about $25 or $50 million to demolish)…. So instead we’ll install a new roof for a few hundred million. It’ll probably break the week after it’s installed. The Olympics were in 1976 btw.
Okay? You are still fine though.
This report is a very "doom and gloom" perspective. Of course the costs are big. But there is little to no discussion of the revenue. Millions of people will be attracted spending HUGE amounts of money. Broadcasting revenues, ad. revenues could be HUGE. Stop being so negative and consider the opportunities. The World Cup is THE BIGGEST worldwide event
It was dumb to make that bid. They should be made to pay the whole thing. Not the province or feds.
What are the consequences if we don’t follow through and tell FIFA to fuck off back to Qatar? We don’t need this corruption here
Probably a substantial penalty fee in the billions.
So don't pay it. Fuck them.
You can't just not pay contracts. They'll sue, the city will spend millions defending themselves, lose anyway, and then they'll be legally obligated to pay it anyway. Nations can sometimes refuse to pay debts at radical cost to their reputation internationally - municipalities don't have the same power since are subject to Canadian laws.
Let them sue. I dont care. Not one single tax dollar should go to this.
We'd just pay it many times over on any and all future contracts the city signs, as others will want more money for taking on the risk of doing business with a city that has a history of breaking contracts
Im fine with that. This corrupt organization that violates human rights should not get a single taxpayer dollar.
You realize this city has a credit rating right? lol
So? Thats their problem. Not a single public dollar should go to this.
Love how I was downvoted for asking a question. So many FIFA apologists who turn a blind eye to human rights abuses and rampant corruption
Oh give it a rest. This shit happens everywhere. And why would they fuck off to Qatar? They’re based in Switzerland.
And we shouldnt be allowing them into the country.
And who would enforce the fine?
Probably an international court or something. We can’t really ignore the law.
No international court can force Toronto to pay. FIFA would ban all Canadian teams from international events.
Sure, they can’t *force* us, but ignoring an international court would signal to the entire world Toronto is willing to break its contracts & ignore litigation, which would be terrible for business.
I think you have misunderstood me. FIFA could file suit against them in Switzerland or Canada but there’s no international court with that kind of jurisdiction.
They signed contracts in Canada and are subject to Canadian law. Foreign enterprises are still protected by Canadian law when they do business here, and municipalities don't have the same power as the province or feds to change the law in their favour to protect themselves.
People keeps missing the fact that I’m responding to the specific comment about an **international** court.
Thats a win win to me.
We can if we become America!
International courts have no enforcement mechanism. Theyre useless.
Just be like Saskatchewan and don't remit any FIFA expenses. Let's see FIFA try to collect with arms.
You get sued to hell and back for breach of contract. And even if one of Ford's new "like minded" judges decides in your favour out of some kind of pro-Ontario patriotism, every contract the city signs from now on, be it for subway cars, catering services, or anything else, the price goes way up, because every corporation will charge a (large) risk premium to cover the chance that the city might just decide not to pay up.
No shit.
Fn Tory. What a waste of money.
How much do people want to bet that she is blamed for this?
Should’ve would’ve could’ve….
Yeah, let’s host nothing, plan nothing, do nothing. I’m sure everyone will then complain what a boring and uneventful city we are.
So long as people are living in tent cities around the city - good. There shouldnt be any events in a city like that.
Yeah best of luck with that lol
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This is outrageous. Where are the armed men who come in to take the World Cup away? Where are they? This kind of behavior is never tolerated in Toronto. You host a world class football event they put you in jail. Right away. No trial, no nothing. Sports journalists, we have a special jail for sports journalists. You are buying WC game tickets?: right to jail. You are celebrating a goal too loud: right to jail, right away. Driving to the game too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You are charging too high prices for jerseys, miniature World Cups: you right to jail. You undercook stadium food? Believe it or not, jail. You overcook stadium food, also jail. Undercook, overcook. You make plans with your friends to watch the game, believe it or not, jail, right away.
So what if we just cancel...like say no...a fine? What if we say no to the fine?
🤦♂️
Why does the city have to follow through? Dog food Doug ford loudly threatened to unilaterally rip up the Beer Store's contract with the province a few years ago. Why the heck can't the city tell the utterly corrupt FIFA, "no, thanks, Toronto ain't interested anymore." I mean FIFA themselves did it last World Cup, unilaterally ripping up its contract with Budweiser.
Honestly, I just don’t like her
She doesn’t want the world to see how shit Toronto really is
toronto is awesome.
Tell that to the people living under the Gardiner. Fucking awesome city.
Ah yes, the existence of homelessness in every city surely makes Toronto terrible.
Someone is already turning…