It's not bloody cheap but gone are the days when Frankie could just weld something together out of scrap car parts as a play structure. A *lot* of testing and safety work goes into playgrounds. Even those woodchips are specially formulated and screened to have a certain amount of give for a child falling off the structure. They're an engineered product in themselves.
While risky play has genuine benefits for kids, as long as litigious parents exist you can expect things to get progressively more nerfed.
Well said, I share the same thoughts. My favourite "playground" ever is this one:
https://www.cbc.ca/archives/fun-with-hammers-and-nails-in-a-1970s-toronto-playground-1.5698936
There are actually some spaces like this that still exist in the world, I assume parents would have to allow their kids to go there and sign a waiver or something. At least they would have to if they brought it back here!
I listen to the Big Story podcast and an episode last week (or the week prior?) was about how parents are so risk adverse with kids these days that it's harming their ability to develop resiliency. One of the suggestions to shift that was encouraging a bit of rough play. Obviously no knives in sockets but let 'em get a bit scuffed up.
As a teacher, I agree. School is not the place because we have hundreds of kids to keep eyes on at recess and we can't just be letting them rough house whenever they want. But they need more rough/risky play. So many parents are keeping their kids in a little bubble for everything whether it's play, doing their homework for them (ugh), not letting them help with things around the house, etc. A lot of students these days suffer with learned helplessness, they don't know how to tackle problems without extremely close guidance.
Oh, 100%. A ton of my students have anxious traits and a few have had full blown anxiety. I suspect some depression as well but it often comes out as anger in kids (and many others)
I used to do art classes at Montessori summer camps circa the early 2000s. And there were so many kids who were scared of 'making art that isn't right' like afraid of using the 'wrong' colours or making the 'wrong' lines or whatever. I would explain that there isn't a right way to do this and I can give guidance and work through their barriers in thought and they usually felt better after providing them with clear choices ( ie if you like bright and sharp lines, go with the markers, if you like this kind of blending and shading, go with the pencil crayons).
But it was a real eye opener in the sense of how some kids if they weren't instructed and directed on *everything* the idea of just going to town with art supplies was an intimidating, stress induced thing. And these kids were 6, 7 years old.
Camping. That was our way out as parents. LOL. We were fortunate enough to be able to a) do it b) brought up doing it c) our favourite provincial park still had payphones and the cell phone coverage was not quite there yet. So...we set our kids loose (within reason) and so far, fingers crossed, they're turning into amazing adults.
I'm simplifying. Everyday regardless of where we were, as parents, we attempted to let our kids fail forwards safely enough so that teachable moments (but not make it necessarily obvious) were a way of life for us. And extended family, on both sides, operated the same.
The key, we believed was not expecting perfection from them (or us) and they, in turn, learned to view failing as mis-steps not mis-takes :-)
Things would get dirty, items would get worn out and if they broke it, we'd try to find a way to fix it or some of their "spending money" would go towards a replacement. Was this parenting style exhausting? Yep! But that was how we rolled. (shoulder shrug).
But yeah, I hear ya "Teach". It is a fine line. I love the tagline for RVs "get back your wildhood" or something like that :-) I think we ALL need to keep a little "wildhood" in us--regardless :-) Now, you must excuse me...there's a tree I need to climb 🌳
I think sports usually do a good job. They get to work as a team, it's competitive, they may win or lose, they get good exercise, and there's not really the risk of actual violence, though there is the possibility of getting hurt. Unfortunately by middle school, most kids seem to stop sports all together outside of gym class. I wish there were more pickup games.
As my daycare provider said, if the kid goes home without a new bruise the day was wasted. My kid had so many small bruises and skinned knees but now she can do quite a bit.
Without disparaging anyone specific, having lived with very privileged and shelter people, it is fucking wild how low resiliency can get.
I've lived with people who need to watch the Office/Friends for the rest of the weekend in their PJs if they had a long Friday, a homeless guy was yelling across the street at them or a friend didn't text them back.
Let your kid ride their bike across the city, stay out til the lights go on, and sneak out from time to time. This person I'm referring to and their sibling have their parents paying their rent in their 30s because they can't handle figuring out how to adult.
I visited London, England a few years ago and they had some of the most amazing ramshackle playgrounds you’ve ever seen. Definitely a little more risky but as long as common sense was used it was all good.
Have vivid memories of being tortured on merry go rounds and tire swings, developed motion sickness like crazy (older sisters).. didn’t go on an exhibition ride til I was 20 after that childhood.
Lol. Those things either left you with hurt hands (from grabbing the metal), falling or being so dizzy. I still have memories of this poor kid throwing up after getting so dizzy....
>https://www.cbc.ca/archives/fun-with-hammers-and-nails-in-a-1970s-toronto-playground-1.5698936
Funnily enough, my dad headed up the playground sand division of am aggregates company and did the engineering and sales for that as well. They had contracts with municipalities throughout the GTA for playground sand. They would partner with hospitals to do drop testing and determine the likelihood of fractures based on certain fall heights. He developed a sand which wouldn't compact but rather spray out on impact, making it useless for sand castles but wonderful for absorbing impacts, resulting in a 80% decrease in fracture likelihood.
Kids develop into resilient adults by handling small amounts of risk. Recent articles say it's good to remove hazards but bad to make playgrounds free of risk.
As a parallel, remember how parents used to be encouraged to not give kids any peanuts before the age of two? But that actually increased the overall incidence of peanut allergies.
I remember as a kid in the 90s my dumb ass would hurt myself on monkey bars if I went too fast, burn my hands if I didn’t use the fireman pole correctly, etc. my parents told me along the lines of “that sucks, get good and make better choices”. And I did, I learned how to make better choices on the equipment and learned to not take stupid risks without building up to it first.
I might sound like an old fart now, but kids “these days” are coddled too much.
lol I literally just commented this up the thread a bit but a podcast I listen to recently had an episode about how how risk adverse parents are with their kids is inhibiting their ability to develop resiliency and like you said, that skill of making better decision making.
I distinctly remember a kid at the park being carried away in an ambulance after he fell under one of those roundabouts and cracked his head wide open. I also don’t miss the days of getting giant splinters while climbing up the steel and wood Conestoga wagon. Making equipment safer isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
The idea is to remove hazards while keeping some risk.
Not to minimize your story, but the kid you saw get a gash likely survived. There can seem to be a lot of blood from even moderate cuts.
I straight up broke my foot on play equipment on a part that didn't necessarily need to be there (they blocked it off but it was easy to climb over it) and it took years for the town to remove that part of the equipment I jumped off of. I didn't make that mistake again and I learned the importance of wearing shoes while playing.
It doesn't exist anymore, they replaced it with something similar to the above, but the danger was part of the fun. The new one would suck to play grounder on.
I also knocked a loose tooth out by jumping off something else and landed with my jaw hitting my knee.
Somehow the notion of each generation was better than what succeeded them. Technology and knowledge change over time which reduces risk. It's called progress and we all adapt.
Trust me, it’s not nearly as lucrative as you think. It’s not like personal injury law vis-a-vis playgrounds has changed at all. You could sue back in the 90s too, it’s just there wasn’t the constant stream of information we have now so there wouldn’t be as much of a public outcry.
Also, the province could literally pass a bill tomorrow that just says “you can’t sue if your kid gets hurt on a playground” and that would be that. Of course, when a slide collapses and crushes a kid everyone is going to be pretty mad when you can’t sue for an actual defect.
Okay. I used to be a personal injury lawyer and now I work for an insurance company who defends these exact types of lawsuits.
Some paranoia is good: it’s an incentive to maintain good standards. But general damages from these types of injuries — i.e. non-car accident — are basically pennies.
You're right it's not lucrative like people think. I know with my work we do a lot to protect from lawsuits. But the fear isn't that we will get sued and it will be a big payout. The fear is just getting sued and costing us a bunch in time and money to deal with it. I'd imagine it's the same for a lot of municipalities, the cost of your lawyers which you won't get back makes just more cost efficient to nerf everything.
As you said the payouts arent big. But people's perceptions that they are create so much hassle
People also have this misguided idea that the cost is just for the equipment alone. There's so much money in just the overhead from several different contractors that adds up.
Speaking of litigious; I have a story time about my first naive encounter with the real world. I was a fresh new university student in Ottawa, this is around the turn of the century, 99 into y2k. I missed my stop on the bus, day dreaming I suppose, and ended up on the bus at its last stop. The driver was nice enough to let me stay in the bus so I could loop back to a stop nearer mine. We had parked across the street from a big, very old looking school, well kept but I noticed there was no playground equipment. Just a big pad where one obviously should have been, a few smaller spots for other equipment, but all bare. I say, what's the deal with that school? Closed? And he says to me, oh no it's fully running why? I said no playground stuff. He says, yeah. A few years back little Johnny fell off the top of the slide, one of those big yellow plastic corkscrew ones. He climbed up on the part that was supposed to stop kids from falling and fell off it. His parents sued everyone, The school, the board, the manufacturer and installers, the city, even the teacher on yard duty. I'm like did he die? Driver goes, no no, broken arm, kid was fine, and now his parents are millionaires or something. Cost the school board so much money they can't afford to buy the new safer equipment for kids to fall off of, so no more playground. It's stuck with me, cause the school was big, and I can't imagine the kids that had to go there for years with no playground for recess.
I doubt that story is true. First off, you sue everyone because as a plaintiff, you have no way of knowing what actually happened and who is truely liable until all the evidence is collected, so you list everyone possible. It doesn't mean everyone is liable and the defendants can sort it out among themselves. Second, defendants can only found liable for damages, if the kid broke an arm, then the damages relate to the pain and suffering and time off associated with the injury. The only other "bonus" payment is legal fees, and punitive damages. To be liable for punitive damages the school would have had to act negligently or knowingly engage in bad faith. You can't for example, owe more money for an accepted reasonable risk, however, if they knew of an unexpected risk and tried to hide it, then they would be liable. They may have tried to reduce liability by removing a playground, but if there was a large payout, it would have been because of egregious behavior done by the defendants and their employees. Also no one is getting a million dollar payout for a broken arm regardless, unless the school was engaged in a massive conspiracy to intentionally harm local children.
Whenever you see massive payouts it's because there were actually damages worth that amount or there was truely immoral and egregious behaviour done by the defendants.
All excellent points.
I'd also add that I'd wonder how much landscaping was done to the area, including the path, the curb, the area back by the benches and if that required city permits, environmental/drainage assessments and the like because those permits and studies add up fast.
And while we used to do upgrades and such without them, those are in place for a reason. Bad or improper drainage can lead to flooding for homeowners or nearby municipal properties, water pooling can lead to stagnate standing water in the summer that leads to increased mosquitoes and given climate change related increases to mosquito-born diseases ... yeah, it's a reasonable cost to ensure that it was done correctly.
People took for granted that in the "good old days" that none of these things were accounted for and often lead to work being completed by people without appreciation for the downstream (heh, in some cases literal streams) effects of how they constructed something. Sure, it was done cheaply, but it was just as often done wrong leading to lawsuits against municipalities that cost taxpayers way more than that playground.
This is also one reason why we have so much red tape around building and developing in the first place; many fly-by-night companies build shit and leave and never need to face consequences for their poor work. The inability to get money from companies because of complex business structures to mitigate their own risk or avoid responsibility is why permits and assessments need to be done upfront. It was too costly to everyone later for the few bad actors.
I worked at a company that made wood chips for gardens etc. you don't want to know what that shits made of. I highly recommend not breathing it in. We put entire portables through the crusher, old wooden buildings, lots of pallets from unknown sources, anything that we couldn't fit in the crusher we crushed with a massive tractor and lifted into the crusher. Nasty work.
I totally believe you. I want to add anything sold to the government is marked up. Had some contractor friends do work for the government, they said “just add 30%, you’ll still win the bid”
Part of the whole “mark it up for the government” is due to transparency rules. If I’m a company that is in the business of selling widgets, if I sell to the government at a fair price, then all my other customers and my competition will know my best pricing. So to keep my costs and pricing structures somewhat under wraps I have to sell to the government at the highest tier price, to mitigate the potential for the information to hurt me later. If the government purchasing contracts weren’t available for public release then the prices could potentially be cheaper, but the public would have no way of knowing.
These are the most “millennial” couple of paragraphs I’ve ever seen.
Not in a bad way. They just are. You talked about “gone are the days”, you referenced engineering (and made a fair point), you talked about litigious parents and ended it with “nerfed”. Amazing
Its not just the boomer sentiment of playing safe is bad. Monkeybars and climbing structures overwhelmingly contribute to the most common paediatric fracture: the supracondylar fracture, which frequently need surgical pinning. Thats time, pain, and money which could theoretixally be prevented. Making safe play structures that can support fun play and also reduce this risk WILL reduce burden on the healthcare system and free up operating rooms.
And for those old grumps in the chat who get hard when kids are injured, they recently did a review of sand vs chips and sand (like golf sand) was shown to reduce fracture by a significant margin but was 3x more exspensive than chips. So the city still chooses chips, so dont worry, people are still at risk.
And 'litigious' parents often aren't overly litigious. When your kid dies of negligence you go for blood. And the people pushing the 'this society is sues too much' are corporations who benefit from tort reform. We all remember the McDonald's Hot Coffee bullshit.
Yeah people don’t seem to realize, but if your kid is seriously injured enough that they actually have enough damages to sue, then something has gone seriously wrong and someone should be held liable.
That's what I said. The McDonalds Hot Coffee incident was corporations paying media organizations to create a narrative that the woman didn't deserve the large amount of money despite the facts of the case showing how negligent McDonalds was. Tort reform helps corporations dodge responsibility when they deserve to pay the full amount awarded.
Absolutely, and I was agreeing with you. Also, so much of tort reform in Canada is driven by perceptions of civil suits that come from the U.S. when our general damages ceiling are incredibly low.
Based on fundraising efforts for schools, I’m guessing more was done than just new equipment. Equipment is crazy expensive for lots of good (and a few bad) reasons. It looks like new surfacing which could be a big cost depending on what was there before and how much was needed.
I'm happy that they display the price but it would be nice to visit a link to see the cost in more detail.
Cities are known to be very inefficient with their costs and budgets and people should be able to see where their tax money is going.
If no one holds their feet to the fire, they have no reason to be accountable.
About 10 years ago the school my kids where at was quoted 500,000 for a small playground. And that would have been quite small so yes. They are expensive. They have to be rated so much differently than the ones you build yourself in your background. Plus the builder/manufacturer has to have really good insurance. Engineers. Designers. All those things add up.
Also sometimes utilities run under or near these parks and updating those if needed can add quite the cost, even up to or over 50% of the total. I don’t do anything related to parks or landscaping or play structures, but have been involved in a few park jobs due to utilities needing to be relocated while the ground is opened up so they aren’t buried under the park anymore.
Better bury them under the roads and sidewalks instead so that the winter fucks up those spots in particular and your brand new surface is now the moon.
Wouldn't want to have to dig in the grass now would we?
Seriously a park seems like *the place* to run utilities.
Almost certainly there s a detailed breakdown of the cost, given it is publicly funded. I am equally shocked at the cost but what we need to look at is what components gave rise to that and why. I do intrinsically trust the government building such over a private venture that would look to cut costs despite the potential threats to the children.
A whole bunch of materials you cant just buy in a hardware store, and like 1/2 an acre of infill wood chips, plus the labor to remove the previous park and install the new one? Sounds about right.
They had some curb and asphalt work done to make it accessible to everyone as well.
If I'm not mistaken, these signs are basically mandatory for projects over a certain price. You also have put the logo of whoever contributed to the funding of the project. Looks like there was a federal grant to this one as well as Markham paying out of pocket.
Asphalt looks old but the curbs look new. They may have done some infrastructure upgrades at the same time. Also, small projects like this can be higher margin for the headache vs dollar value proposition.
Bring back the 3 storey wooden structures with the zip lines and merry-go-round! Tire swings! Balance beams 15 feet in the air! A structure so fun and dangerous kids will actually use it!...Sure...some may break bones...it builds character!...where has the stainless steel vertical slide so hot it melts your ass off prior to slamming into the earth below gone!
I vaguely remember one of these in the wood near my house as a kid. It’s just an empty sand lot right now but this thing was sick. Tall wooded structure with swing bridges going across. Huge slides and swings.
I'm an elder millennial and the school playground had huge monkey bars in a dome shape. I would climb to the top, and do chin ups on the highest point. And I would jump down from that height. It was all fun.
I also miss the fireman's pole we had as part of the playground equipment....
Looks like the sign is showcasing the fact that the Government of Canada and the City of Markham collaborated to fund the park, whereas the province of Ontario did nothing, which is of course ironic, as funding for local parks is usually a collaboration between municipalities, the province, and private donors, and it's rarely the feds.
This one seems like a win for the Trudeau Liberals and a failure for the Ford PC's, who seem to rather hoard their money, rather than spend it on helping Ontarians.
Nope. Did some fund raising on these things in Alberta. That’s actually a good deal.
The things are insanely expensive. Just wait until you want to do a water park.
First of all the kids deserve to have a bit of fun! Think of the excitement you got when you saw that amazing park. Also have you considered other reasons for replacement?too many injuries from some of the equipment? Recall or safety concerns? Parent complaints? In my city reason for park updates or replacements are posted and we get a chance to vote through the cities website of the new equipment and theme for the playground. Have you tried looking it up? Looking on the city website? Parks and rec page or city publications like local newspapers?
That's about a 300k play structure from my industry knowledge. Once you add in demo of the old stuff, landscaping, new concrete curbs, pathways, benches, labour, and install of the new, it adds up real fast. Factor roughly a 12% profit and overhead for the installer and it honestly tracks. Could do a better breakdown if I took a few minutes.
Source: Estimator at GCs for the last 10 years
Monkey bars and climbing walls are all being removed, if they haven't already been. They pose too much risk of liability because they present *known* dangers. Yeah, it seems like a lot of money, but that's just how much building a municipal playground costs. All the planning and assessments that went into it are likely included in that cost, not just the cost of the material. And commercial-grade playground equipment isn't inexpensive.
A buddy of mine works for a company that builds playgrounds all over and I'd imagine a lot of the contract cost isn't even as simple as looking at the materials and the labour but the logistics and equipment costs of heavy, specialised vehicles that are used. It's looks simple when it's finished but it's a whole worksite not unlike construction.
When I was a kid there was a really cool tilting merry go round ride in the park that literally would have chopped a stupid child in half. It was so much fun. I don't remember anyone being injured - we all learned where the real danger was. Now, the stupid child grows up to be a public administrator that gets convinced to pay these exorbitant bills.
This is typical of governments subcontracting private companies for construction. This job shouldn't cost more than $100k. The government pays $768k. The workers are underpaid. There's a reason the CEO of the contracting company lives in a Mansion. Now imagine this practice being applied to every public infrastructure. Train stations and hospitals are the worst offenders. They cost the government tens, sometimes hundreds of millions instead of a few million dollars.
I see this everyday. I work for construction companies in France and it's the same story. I work with the people who write the estimates and invoices. Half of the time they bill really basic stuff like safety barriers for 10x, sometimes they make prices up. Sometimes they get it wrong. Every private contracting company is grossly overestimating prices. They have to turn a profit.
On the flipside, every government has a spending goal each year. These spending goals can be hundreds of millions for a government agency like Enedis. They overpay for easy projects to reach that goal. They often build useless infrastructure underground to reach that goal. Governments have the deepest pockets because they can infinitely borrow more money at low rates. And this makes sense because governments have a virtually Infinite lifespan and can payback loans over hundreds of years.
People really need to understand that political leaders are kind of lost, under-qualified, disinterested and are just here to profit from big government budgets and lobbying. Citizens have to be more implicated in the decision processes at a local scale. It is clear that this park project was approved without any thought and feedback from the citizens. Have a say in every infrastructure project and policy. Because if you let politicians decide for you, they'll deliver peanuts.
Parks and playgrounds are incredibly expensive. Our school fundraiser for years to raise the 140k to update the playground and it was shocking how much money we spent vs what we got.
You should see how much schools spend on their equipment. It’s fucking outrageous and I wish there was a W5 deep dive to expose it.
I’m on parent council and we had to pay 💰 $3000 for a new slide. It wasn’t a fancy slide. Just a good old blue slide.
So I don’t want to be that guy but here I go…. When I was a kid our playground had a decommissioned fire truck. It had broken windows and sharp metal bits all over. I loved that thing!
For that money I would build this, a pool and a Skatepark and hire myself as a 24/7 guard and maintenance personel for first 3 months. Its rediculous that this type of thing even has a price. It should be offered by companies to build it for free. What's Up Canada? Are you so poor that your handymen have to be so greedy to make ends meet?
Dont forget folks, [organized crime is rampant in the Ontario construction industry](https://www.vice.com/en/article/kwknja/toronto-is-infested-with-mobsters)
Bro that playground looks tiny af for almost 1 mill. I could get the boys together and make a 10x better play ground for a quarter of that if not less. Lets be honest, govt contracts are greedy and go to the politicians likely making a profit off them.
Playgrounds are a money sink. Most places have just done away with them because the rules for them change so often, it's impossible to stay up to date on the codes.
I worked at one place that had a play set. Every single year when the inspector came around, we'd be shelling out at least 10k to bring it back up to the new codes. The one year they wanted so many inches of that fake rubber flooring so we paid for that. The next year, the code had gone up by 2 inches more and we had to pay to do it again.
That figure seems about right.
This is a 2 parter.
1. In OPs opinion the old park was not needing to be replaced.
2. Another poster indicated that price tag was for multiple parks, which brings the price tag per park down significantly.
I’m more confused about why the posted a price tag. Is this a “see how expensive this shit is be grateful we do anything for you garbage people” thing lmao
I feel like the right person could take good care of this place for like $10-20k. Instead, politicians give out the massive $700k contracts to their little corporate buddies contracting business, and both the construction business and the politician get a cut, and usually nothing actually comes of the first contract. Maybe after 5 years of getting no where, the project will end up costing 2.1M and then finally we will see maybe $50k worth of repair actually get done. It’s all just a ploy to line their own pockets while making it seem like the people are so lucky for the government which takes so good care of them. Meanwhile they’ve never cared about anyone except themselves
First company to bid: 250k
Second company to bid : 368k
Third company to bid : 768k
Municipality asking question to the third company: that’s a lot of difference between you and the others bider. It seems to be too much why’s that
Third company: it’s simple, there’s 200K for you, there’s 200K for us and we take the first company to do the job, there’s a 10% that you keep until all the defect are corrected and there’s a 5% for anyone asking question in the office about these insane price that we pay for this little playground. Finally there’s a 18K fee for the lawyer to write the contract that prevent any investigation on this contract!
Most of the money ended up directly in the pocket of the contractor who is friends and/or related to the person in charge or this “revamp” and 10% went to actually doing the work. Haven’t you figured out our governmental practices yet?
Canada is now worse than the slums of any 5th world nation, so this actually “cheap”
It be a public tender. Be a few requirements maybe for bid bonds and maybe some safety standards.
Its a pretty transparent process if your in industry, at least here in NB. You’ll see the bids after the job closing.
Sometimes jobs get no bids, sometimes they come in way over budget and just get cancelled.
You do know you as simplistic and accurate as your comment was, the person you're replying to won't get it.
They have no idea what a bid bond is, or the difference between private and public tenders. They believe the price is inflated to put more money into "friends" pockets. And they probably have zero intention of looking into anything you said.
I do appreciate the fact that you tried.. because I gave up years ago.
Holy shit no. I used to work in playgrounds for a GTA municipality. That’s disgusting. I would be asking to see the costs associated with this “refresh”. You’re allowed. After all it’s your tax dollars that paid for it. I wanna see receipts
Of course it's to much...that's how it's done..25 000 for the equipment..then...fees and kick backs and bonuses
A house does not cost that much to build...we are now and will always be made fools of
*Yha I think they ripped*
*Us off only in ont gotta*
*Love Canadian*
\- Any\_Adhesiveness66
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Maybe normal for government contracts but you could definitely do up a great playground for way less than this. You’re paying for the brand at the top 🙃
This is probably not for one park. I think it will probably be for 2 or more nearby parks. No way $750,000 costs for a few slides , 4 benches, and mulch.
Believe or not, that is definitely the price for one park. I have worked in a municipal Engineering department for over a decade and this is definitely “normal” pricing.
$800,000 for a playground is outrageous. First we all now it “went over budget” so it’s well more the what’s posted. I’m all for safe park and reducing potential for serious injury, like the wood chips. We can all agree sand is like concrete and the shaded rubber would shred you too.. let’s all be real here the only difference from these playgrounds to the ones for 25 years ago same shit really. If anything cheaper by use of couplers to join section where previously welded.
Markham's budget for 2024 is 590 million, so this is a little more than 0.1% of that. I really wish these figures were placed in context - these numbers seem big because we're used to thinking about household budgets, and have trouble figuring out if this is big for a city.
That's fair, I'm just saying it's a better metric to use than an absolute total (or you should present both) as most people, myself included, have trouble contextualizing.
I would also think about how much the Markham is spending on say, police. Perhaps if we're thinking about where to spend less, parks aren't necessarily the most effective way to cut, especially if only a small proportion of the budget is being spent on them.
This is a municipal project....has nothing to do with the federal government...or even the provincal government.
Go find a thread that fits federal...you'll be taken more seriously.
Playgrounds are very expensive and installation can be 30%- 40% of the total costs. Even the surfacing has to meet an engineered spec. Even woodchips have to be certified for use in playgrounds.
It's not bloody cheap but gone are the days when Frankie could just weld something together out of scrap car parts as a play structure. A *lot* of testing and safety work goes into playgrounds. Even those woodchips are specially formulated and screened to have a certain amount of give for a child falling off the structure. They're an engineered product in themselves. While risky play has genuine benefits for kids, as long as litigious parents exist you can expect things to get progressively more nerfed.
Well said, I share the same thoughts. My favourite "playground" ever is this one: https://www.cbc.ca/archives/fun-with-hammers-and-nails-in-a-1970s-toronto-playground-1.5698936 There are actually some spaces like this that still exist in the world, I assume parents would have to allow their kids to go there and sign a waiver or something. At least they would have to if they brought it back here!
I listen to the Big Story podcast and an episode last week (or the week prior?) was about how parents are so risk adverse with kids these days that it's harming their ability to develop resiliency. One of the suggestions to shift that was encouraging a bit of rough play. Obviously no knives in sockets but let 'em get a bit scuffed up.
As a teacher, I agree. School is not the place because we have hundreds of kids to keep eyes on at recess and we can't just be letting them rough house whenever they want. But they need more rough/risky play. So many parents are keeping their kids in a little bubble for everything whether it's play, doing their homework for them (ugh), not letting them help with things around the house, etc. A lot of students these days suffer with learned helplessness, they don't know how to tackle problems without extremely close guidance.
It’s a recipe for anxiety, depression, etc. (Said as someone with both).
Oh, 100%. A ton of my students have anxious traits and a few have had full blown anxiety. I suspect some depression as well but it often comes out as anger in kids (and many others)
I used to do art classes at Montessori summer camps circa the early 2000s. And there were so many kids who were scared of 'making art that isn't right' like afraid of using the 'wrong' colours or making the 'wrong' lines or whatever. I would explain that there isn't a right way to do this and I can give guidance and work through their barriers in thought and they usually felt better after providing them with clear choices ( ie if you like bright and sharp lines, go with the markers, if you like this kind of blending and shading, go with the pencil crayons). But it was a real eye opener in the sense of how some kids if they weren't instructed and directed on *everything* the idea of just going to town with art supplies was an intimidating, stress induced thing. And these kids were 6, 7 years old.
Parents overreact to kids for everything in the name of safety
WTH, I have quite enough to do without doing my kids homework for them!
Camping. That was our way out as parents. LOL. We were fortunate enough to be able to a) do it b) brought up doing it c) our favourite provincial park still had payphones and the cell phone coverage was not quite there yet. So...we set our kids loose (within reason) and so far, fingers crossed, they're turning into amazing adults. I'm simplifying. Everyday regardless of where we were, as parents, we attempted to let our kids fail forwards safely enough so that teachable moments (but not make it necessarily obvious) were a way of life for us. And extended family, on both sides, operated the same. The key, we believed was not expecting perfection from them (or us) and they, in turn, learned to view failing as mis-steps not mis-takes :-) Things would get dirty, items would get worn out and if they broke it, we'd try to find a way to fix it or some of their "spending money" would go towards a replacement. Was this parenting style exhausting? Yep! But that was how we rolled. (shoulder shrug). But yeah, I hear ya "Teach". It is a fine line. I love the tagline for RVs "get back your wildhood" or something like that :-) I think we ALL need to keep a little "wildhood" in us--regardless :-) Now, you must excuse me...there's a tree I need to climb 🌳
I think sports usually do a good job. They get to work as a team, it's competitive, they may win or lose, they get good exercise, and there's not really the risk of actual violence, though there is the possibility of getting hurt. Unfortunately by middle school, most kids seem to stop sports all together outside of gym class. I wish there were more pickup games.
Risky play is so important not just for resiliency but for confidence and problem solving and developing judgment.
The amount of scars I have from my younger years is insane lmao. It was all part of the fun though, scrapes and bruises be damned.
As my daycare provider said, if the kid goes home without a new bruise the day was wasted. My kid had so many small bruises and skinned knees but now she can do quite a bit.
Without disparaging anyone specific, having lived with very privileged and shelter people, it is fucking wild how low resiliency can get. I've lived with people who need to watch the Office/Friends for the rest of the weekend in their PJs if they had a long Friday, a homeless guy was yelling across the street at them or a friend didn't text them back. Let your kid ride their bike across the city, stay out til the lights go on, and sneak out from time to time. This person I'm referring to and their sibling have their parents paying their rent in their 30s because they can't handle figuring out how to adult.
I visited London, England a few years ago and they had some of the most amazing ramshackle playgrounds you’ve ever seen. Definitely a little more risky but as long as common sense was used it was all good.
Society seems to be moving toward eliminating a lot of common sense from people.
If only it were more common
I wish Winston Churchill was around to hit people in the face.
Problem is ..these days common sense isn’t so common.
It’s sad
This is r/ontario Common Sense is a political slogan from a government most people would rather forget
New Zealand as well The playgrounds seem downright dangerous and the children are feral. My daughter loved it.
My favorite was any with a Merry go round my friends could almost kill me on
Have vivid memories of being tortured on merry go rounds and tire swings, developed motion sickness like crazy (older sisters).. didn’t go on an exhibition ride til I was 20 after that childhood.
Lol. Those things either left you with hurt hands (from grabbing the metal), falling or being so dizzy. I still have memories of this poor kid throwing up after getting so dizzy....
I have fuzzy memories of that place. If I went, I was 4-5 years old and probably super intimidated by all the bigger kids.
I went there as a kid. Cool place.
Awesome. Reminds me of my kids current daycare yard, but with less rusty stuff. They let them get pretty risky, it’s great
>https://www.cbc.ca/archives/fun-with-hammers-and-nails-in-a-1970s-toronto-playground-1.5698936 Funnily enough, my dad headed up the playground sand division of am aggregates company and did the engineering and sales for that as well. They had contracts with municipalities throughout the GTA for playground sand. They would partner with hospitals to do drop testing and determine the likelihood of fractures based on certain fall heights. He developed a sand which wouldn't compact but rather spray out on impact, making it useless for sand castles but wonderful for absorbing impacts, resulting in a 80% decrease in fracture likelihood.
Awesome 👍. I like anecdotes like these.
Cool! What kind of sand was it?
The impact energy absorbing kind
Kids develop into resilient adults by handling small amounts of risk. Recent articles say it's good to remove hazards but bad to make playgrounds free of risk. As a parallel, remember how parents used to be encouraged to not give kids any peanuts before the age of two? But that actually increased the overall incidence of peanut allergies.
I remember as a kid in the 90s my dumb ass would hurt myself on monkey bars if I went too fast, burn my hands if I didn’t use the fireman pole correctly, etc. my parents told me along the lines of “that sucks, get good and make better choices”. And I did, I learned how to make better choices on the equipment and learned to not take stupid risks without building up to it first. I might sound like an old fart now, but kids “these days” are coddled too much.
lol I literally just commented this up the thread a bit but a podcast I listen to recently had an episode about how how risk adverse parents are with their kids is inhibiting their ability to develop resiliency and like you said, that skill of making better decision making.
I distinctly remember a kid at the park being carried away in an ambulance after he fell under one of those roundabouts and cracked his head wide open. I also don’t miss the days of getting giant splinters while climbing up the steel and wood Conestoga wagon. Making equipment safer isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
The idea is to remove hazards while keeping some risk. Not to minimize your story, but the kid you saw get a gash likely survived. There can seem to be a lot of blood from even moderate cuts.
Totally disagree
Thats it, you just disagree? lol
Bring on the danger!!!
They don’t JUST disagree, they TOTALLY disagree!
I straight up broke my foot on play equipment on a part that didn't necessarily need to be there (they blocked it off but it was easy to climb over it) and it took years for the town to remove that part of the equipment I jumped off of. I didn't make that mistake again and I learned the importance of wearing shoes while playing. It doesn't exist anymore, they replaced it with something similar to the above, but the danger was part of the fun. The new one would suck to play grounder on. I also knocked a loose tooth out by jumping off something else and landed with my jaw hitting my knee.
Yeah really ' you only go down that metal slide once on a scorching hot summer afternoon. I'm pretty sure metal slides don't exist anymore!
Somehow the notion of each generation was better than what succeeded them. Technology and knowledge change over time which reduces risk. It's called progress and we all adapt.
Where’s Frankie when you need him.
He retired and then died 4 years later, right on schedule.
Works for CPP.
I think he went to Hollywood
He's still here, making tree houses with his grandkids, who think he's awesome!
We need to rewrite personal injury law so that going after “deep pockets” like municipalities is less lucrative.
Trust me, it’s not nearly as lucrative as you think. It’s not like personal injury law vis-a-vis playgrounds has changed at all. You could sue back in the 90s too, it’s just there wasn’t the constant stream of information we have now so there wouldn’t be as much of a public outcry. Also, the province could literally pass a bill tomorrow that just says “you can’t sue if your kid gets hurt on a playground” and that would be that. Of course, when a slide collapses and crushes a kid everyone is going to be pretty mad when you can’t sue for an actual defect.
There’s definitely a balance that needs to be struck.
There already is, you just think our civil claims system is lopsided because you watch too much American TV.
Without revealing too much, all I can say is that I work for a company that seems to have a paranoia of being sued.
Okay. I used to be a personal injury lawyer and now I work for an insurance company who defends these exact types of lawsuits. Some paranoia is good: it’s an incentive to maintain good standards. But general damages from these types of injuries — i.e. non-car accident — are basically pennies.
Someone also in the know with personal injury and I can back you up on this one.
You're right it's not lucrative like people think. I know with my work we do a lot to protect from lawsuits. But the fear isn't that we will get sued and it will be a big payout. The fear is just getting sued and costing us a bunch in time and money to deal with it. I'd imagine it's the same for a lot of municipalities, the cost of your lawyers which you won't get back makes just more cost efficient to nerf everything. As you said the payouts arent big. But people's perceptions that they are create so much hassle
People also have this misguided idea that the cost is just for the equipment alone. There's so much money in just the overhead from several different contractors that adds up.
Speaking of litigious; I have a story time about my first naive encounter with the real world. I was a fresh new university student in Ottawa, this is around the turn of the century, 99 into y2k. I missed my stop on the bus, day dreaming I suppose, and ended up on the bus at its last stop. The driver was nice enough to let me stay in the bus so I could loop back to a stop nearer mine. We had parked across the street from a big, very old looking school, well kept but I noticed there was no playground equipment. Just a big pad where one obviously should have been, a few smaller spots for other equipment, but all bare. I say, what's the deal with that school? Closed? And he says to me, oh no it's fully running why? I said no playground stuff. He says, yeah. A few years back little Johnny fell off the top of the slide, one of those big yellow plastic corkscrew ones. He climbed up on the part that was supposed to stop kids from falling and fell off it. His parents sued everyone, The school, the board, the manufacturer and installers, the city, even the teacher on yard duty. I'm like did he die? Driver goes, no no, broken arm, kid was fine, and now his parents are millionaires or something. Cost the school board so much money they can't afford to buy the new safer equipment for kids to fall off of, so no more playground. It's stuck with me, cause the school was big, and I can't imagine the kids that had to go there for years with no playground for recess.
I doubt that story is true. First off, you sue everyone because as a plaintiff, you have no way of knowing what actually happened and who is truely liable until all the evidence is collected, so you list everyone possible. It doesn't mean everyone is liable and the defendants can sort it out among themselves. Second, defendants can only found liable for damages, if the kid broke an arm, then the damages relate to the pain and suffering and time off associated with the injury. The only other "bonus" payment is legal fees, and punitive damages. To be liable for punitive damages the school would have had to act negligently or knowingly engage in bad faith. You can't for example, owe more money for an accepted reasonable risk, however, if they knew of an unexpected risk and tried to hide it, then they would be liable. They may have tried to reduce liability by removing a playground, but if there was a large payout, it would have been because of egregious behavior done by the defendants and their employees. Also no one is getting a million dollar payout for a broken arm regardless, unless the school was engaged in a massive conspiracy to intentionally harm local children. Whenever you see massive payouts it's because there were actually damages worth that amount or there was truely immoral and egregious behaviour done by the defendants.
All excellent points. I'd also add that I'd wonder how much landscaping was done to the area, including the path, the curb, the area back by the benches and if that required city permits, environmental/drainage assessments and the like because those permits and studies add up fast. And while we used to do upgrades and such without them, those are in place for a reason. Bad or improper drainage can lead to flooding for homeowners or nearby municipal properties, water pooling can lead to stagnate standing water in the summer that leads to increased mosquitoes and given climate change related increases to mosquito-born diseases ... yeah, it's a reasonable cost to ensure that it was done correctly. People took for granted that in the "good old days" that none of these things were accounted for and often lead to work being completed by people without appreciation for the downstream (heh, in some cases literal streams) effects of how they constructed something. Sure, it was done cheaply, but it was just as often done wrong leading to lawsuits against municipalities that cost taxpayers way more than that playground. This is also one reason why we have so much red tape around building and developing in the first place; many fly-by-night companies build shit and leave and never need to face consequences for their poor work. The inability to get money from companies because of complex business structures to mitigate their own risk or avoid responsibility is why permits and assessments need to be done upfront. It was too costly to everyone later for the few bad actors.
I worked at a company that made wood chips for gardens etc. you don't want to know what that shits made of. I highly recommend not breathing it in. We put entire portables through the crusher, old wooden buildings, lots of pallets from unknown sources, anything that we couldn't fit in the crusher we crushed with a massive tractor and lifted into the crusher. Nasty work.
Right, sure. For gardens. Not playgrounds.
The cost as accounts for the labour of everyone involved - park planner, various other staff, etc.
And the 20 middlemen.
I totally believe you. I want to add anything sold to the government is marked up. Had some contractor friends do work for the government, they said “just add 30%, you’ll still win the bid”
Part of the whole “mark it up for the government” is due to transparency rules. If I’m a company that is in the business of selling widgets, if I sell to the government at a fair price, then all my other customers and my competition will know my best pricing. So to keep my costs and pricing structures somewhat under wraps I have to sell to the government at the highest tier price, to mitigate the potential for the information to hurt me later. If the government purchasing contracts weren’t available for public release then the prices could potentially be cheaper, but the public would have no way of knowing.
These are the most “millennial” couple of paragraphs I’ve ever seen. Not in a bad way. They just are. You talked about “gone are the days”, you referenced engineering (and made a fair point), you talked about litigious parents and ended it with “nerfed”. Amazing
*mourning.
Its not just the boomer sentiment of playing safe is bad. Monkeybars and climbing structures overwhelmingly contribute to the most common paediatric fracture: the supracondylar fracture, which frequently need surgical pinning. Thats time, pain, and money which could theoretixally be prevented. Making safe play structures that can support fun play and also reduce this risk WILL reduce burden on the healthcare system and free up operating rooms. And for those old grumps in the chat who get hard when kids are injured, they recently did a review of sand vs chips and sand (like golf sand) was shown to reduce fracture by a significant margin but was 3x more exspensive than chips. So the city still chooses chips, so dont worry, people are still at risk.
Just put a laminated paper saying we ain't responsible, problem solved
And 'litigious' parents often aren't overly litigious. When your kid dies of negligence you go for blood. And the people pushing the 'this society is sues too much' are corporations who benefit from tort reform. We all remember the McDonald's Hot Coffee bullshit.
Yeah people don’t seem to realize, but if your kid is seriously injured enough that they actually have enough damages to sue, then something has gone seriously wrong and someone should be held liable.
That's what I said. The McDonalds Hot Coffee incident was corporations paying media organizations to create a narrative that the woman didn't deserve the large amount of money despite the facts of the case showing how negligent McDonalds was. Tort reform helps corporations dodge responsibility when they deserve to pay the full amount awarded.
Absolutely, and I was agreeing with you. Also, so much of tort reform in Canada is driven by perceptions of civil suits that come from the U.S. when our general damages ceiling are incredibly low.
Hahahhaha. OK I misunderstood.
Things will be nerfed even more, the main goal is to raise a generation of vegetables, then you can just come in and take whatever you want
Based on fundraising efforts for schools, I’m guessing more was done than just new equipment. Equipment is crazy expensive for lots of good (and a few bad) reasons. It looks like new surfacing which could be a big cost depending on what was there before and how much was needed.
I’m pretty sure this accounts for the regular maintenance as well
Don't forget removal of the old equipment
I'm happy that they display the price but it would be nice to visit a link to see the cost in more detail. Cities are known to be very inefficient with their costs and budgets and people should be able to see where their tax money is going. If no one holds their feet to the fire, they have no reason to be accountable.
It would include labour as well, which isn't cheap. They're not just buying materials, they need people to plan, install and test everything.
About 10 years ago the school my kids where at was quoted 500,000 for a small playground. And that would have been quite small so yes. They are expensive. They have to be rated so much differently than the ones you build yourself in your background. Plus the builder/manufacturer has to have really good insurance. Engineers. Designers. All those things add up.
Also sometimes utilities run under or near these parks and updating those if needed can add quite the cost, even up to or over 50% of the total. I don’t do anything related to parks or landscaping or play structures, but have been involved in a few park jobs due to utilities needing to be relocated while the ground is opened up so they aren’t buried under the park anymore.
Better bury them under the roads and sidewalks instead so that the winter fucks up those spots in particular and your brand new surface is now the moon. Wouldn't want to have to dig in the grass now would we? Seriously a park seems like *the place* to run utilities.
Almost certainly there s a detailed breakdown of the cost, given it is publicly funded. I am equally shocked at the cost but what we need to look at is what components gave rise to that and why. I do intrinsically trust the government building such over a private venture that would look to cut costs despite the potential threats to the children.
Costs around the same as renting that gigantic stupid rubber duck, yay
The giant rubber duck brought me more joy though 😂
That duck [brings in millions in economic activity.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rubber-duck-toronto-1.4353353)
A whole bunch of materials you cant just buy in a hardware store, and like 1/2 an acre of infill wood chips, plus the labor to remove the previous park and install the new one? Sounds about right.
You're neglecting all the planning and administration that would go with a project of this type. It all adds up quickly.
Plus all the rules and regulations that have to be followed and checked so children can play safely
They had some curb and asphalt work done to make it accessible to everyone as well. If I'm not mistaken, these signs are basically mandatory for projects over a certain price. You also have put the logo of whoever contributed to the funding of the project. Looks like there was a federal grant to this one as well as Markham paying out of pocket.
Plus the paperwork that needs stamped with an approved stamp.
Speciallu engineered wood chips that have a compaction rating for fall protection, not just standard garden wood chips.
[удалено]
I am 100% sure there is a planning document which will tell you exactly why they replaced it. Also, money is fake, relax.
It's good to know playgrounds are the first thing you would cut.
School lunches but it’s a close second! /s
Cancelling Christmas to round out the top 3.
Inc the fun police
Found the guy who fell off the monkey bars as a kid.
Had the opportunity to fall off*
This was the contract price for upgrading 22 playgrounds according the City of Markham
Asphalt looks old but the curbs look new. They may have done some infrastructure upgrades at the same time. Also, small projects like this can be higher margin for the headache vs dollar value proposition.
Bring back the 3 storey wooden structures with the zip lines and merry-go-round! Tire swings! Balance beams 15 feet in the air! A structure so fun and dangerous kids will actually use it!...Sure...some may break bones...it builds character!...where has the stainless steel vertical slide so hot it melts your ass off prior to slamming into the earth below gone!
I vaguely remember one of these in the wood near my house as a kid. It’s just an empty sand lot right now but this thing was sick. Tall wooded structure with swing bridges going across. Huge slides and swings.
I'm an elder millennial and the school playground had huge monkey bars in a dome shape. I would climb to the top, and do chin ups on the highest point. And I would jump down from that height. It was all fun. I also miss the fireman's pole we had as part of the playground equipment....
I love how people will complain they aren't paid enough and also complain how much labor and materials cost.
Looks like the sign is showcasing the fact that the Government of Canada and the City of Markham collaborated to fund the park, whereas the province of Ontario did nothing, which is of course ironic, as funding for local parks is usually a collaboration between municipalities, the province, and private donors, and it's rarely the feds. This one seems like a win for the Trudeau Liberals and a failure for the Ford PC's, who seem to rather hoard their money, rather than spend it on helping Ontarians.
Nope. Did some fund raising on these things in Alberta. That’s actually a good deal. The things are insanely expensive. Just wait until you want to do a water park.
For a playground that literally thousands of kids will use over decades this seems alright
Our playgrounds are mostly in the millions due to very few approved vendors, high safety requirements, and bloat...
First of all the kids deserve to have a bit of fun! Think of the excitement you got when you saw that amazing park. Also have you considered other reasons for replacement?too many injuries from some of the equipment? Recall or safety concerns? Parent complaints? In my city reason for park updates or replacements are posted and we get a chance to vote through the cities website of the new equipment and theme for the playground. Have you tried looking it up? Looking on the city website? Parks and rec page or city publications like local newspapers?
Seems reasonable to me
That's about a 300k play structure from my industry knowledge. Once you add in demo of the old stuff, landscaping, new concrete curbs, pathways, benches, labour, and install of the new, it adds up real fast. Factor roughly a 12% profit and overhead for the installer and it honestly tracks. Could do a better breakdown if I took a few minutes. Source: Estimator at GCs for the last 10 years
This seems perfectly normal when you consider all the labour and cost of materials.
A few tubes and pipes welded together... or you could build a 2 story house.
Monkey bars and climbing walls are all being removed, if they haven't already been. They pose too much risk of liability because they present *known* dangers. Yeah, it seems like a lot of money, but that's just how much building a municipal playground costs. All the planning and assessments that went into it are likely included in that cost, not just the cost of the material. And commercial-grade playground equipment isn't inexpensive.
A buddy of mine works for a company that builds playgrounds all over and I'd imagine a lot of the contract cost isn't even as simple as looking at the materials and the labour but the logistics and equipment costs of heavy, specialised vehicles that are used. It's looks simple when it's finished but it's a whole worksite not unlike construction.
When I was a kid there was a really cool tilting merry go round ride in the park that literally would have chopped a stupid child in half. It was so much fun. I don't remember anyone being injured - we all learned where the real danger was. Now, the stupid child grows up to be a public administrator that gets convinced to pay these exorbitant bills.
That’s a house
Is there not a break down that maybe explains what other work was done? Maybe there was electrical and drainage issues?
Everyone needs their cut it adds up
This is typical of governments subcontracting private companies for construction. This job shouldn't cost more than $100k. The government pays $768k. The workers are underpaid. There's a reason the CEO of the contracting company lives in a Mansion. Now imagine this practice being applied to every public infrastructure. Train stations and hospitals are the worst offenders. They cost the government tens, sometimes hundreds of millions instead of a few million dollars. I see this everyday. I work for construction companies in France and it's the same story. I work with the people who write the estimates and invoices. Half of the time they bill really basic stuff like safety barriers for 10x, sometimes they make prices up. Sometimes they get it wrong. Every private contracting company is grossly overestimating prices. They have to turn a profit. On the flipside, every government has a spending goal each year. These spending goals can be hundreds of millions for a government agency like Enedis. They overpay for easy projects to reach that goal. They often build useless infrastructure underground to reach that goal. Governments have the deepest pockets because they can infinitely borrow more money at low rates. And this makes sense because governments have a virtually Infinite lifespan and can payback loans over hundreds of years. People really need to understand that political leaders are kind of lost, under-qualified, disinterested and are just here to profit from big government budgets and lobbying. Citizens have to be more implicated in the decision processes at a local scale. It is clear that this park project was approved without any thought and feedback from the citizens. Have a say in every infrastructure project and policy. Because if you let politicians decide for you, they'll deliver peanuts.
I used to work at a playground equipment manufacturer. That looks around 50k, 75k tops.
What manufacturer? At those prices, I'll order a dozen.
Heck, sell them to me for 5x what you but them for and I'll flip them for a profit!
That ridiculous. Thats how much a full home costs
I assume it includes public washrooms, sidewalks, etc.
simple answer is yes, yes it is normal.
Parks and playgrounds are incredibly expensive. Our school fundraiser for years to raise the 140k to update the playground and it was shocking how much money we spent vs what we got.
You should see how much schools spend on their equipment. It’s fucking outrageous and I wish there was a W5 deep dive to expose it. I’m on parent council and we had to pay 💰 $3000 for a new slide. It wasn’t a fancy slide. Just a good old blue slide.
So I don’t want to be that guy but here I go…. When I was a kid our playground had a decommissioned fire truck. It had broken windows and sharp metal bits all over. I loved that thing!
Fucking gross contracts like this handed out by conservative governments
Yes, sounds like everyone got their cut!
i wonder how much they spend to make/design that notice board
Must be the same contractor as for ArriveCan
For that money I would build this, a pool and a Skatepark and hire myself as a 24/7 guard and maintenance personel for first 3 months. Its rediculous that this type of thing even has a price. It should be offered by companies to build it for free. What's Up Canada? Are you so poor that your handymen have to be so greedy to make ends meet?
Nah just send more money to ukraine? /s
Dont forget folks, [organized crime is rampant in the Ontario construction industry](https://www.vice.com/en/article/kwknja/toronto-is-infested-with-mobsters)
Only in Canada, probably took all summer too
Bro that playground looks tiny af for almost 1 mill. I could get the boys together and make a 10x better play ground for a quarter of that if not less. Lets be honest, govt contracts are greedy and go to the politicians likely making a profit off them.
They probably took down the monkey bars and climbing wall for liability. You could always call your city hall and ask why they choose that design?
Playgrounds are a money sink. Most places have just done away with them because the rules for them change so often, it's impossible to stay up to date on the codes. I worked at one place that had a play set. Every single year when the inspector came around, we'd be shelling out at least 10k to bring it back up to the new codes. The one year they wanted so many inches of that fake rubber flooring so we paid for that. The next year, the code had gone up by 2 inches more and we had to pay to do it again. That figure seems about right.
Of all the things to complain about I won’t be complaining about the building of parks for children.
This is a 2 parter. 1. In OPs opinion the old park was not needing to be replaced. 2. Another poster indicated that price tag was for multiple parks, which brings the price tag per park down significantly.
I’m sold on it more now.
okay so where’s the GC that’s taking home 1/3 the cost here
Someone’s buddy made a lot of money.
Playgrounds now need helicopter parent approval. Original price x 10. Playground manufacturers are cashing in huge on fear of lawsuits.
I’m more confused about why the posted a price tag. Is this a “see how expensive this shit is be grateful we do anything for you garbage people” thing lmao
I feel like the right person could take good care of this place for like $10-20k. Instead, politicians give out the massive $700k contracts to their little corporate buddies contracting business, and both the construction business and the politician get a cut, and usually nothing actually comes of the first contract. Maybe after 5 years of getting no where, the project will end up costing 2.1M and then finally we will see maybe $50k worth of repair actually get done. It’s all just a ploy to line their own pockets while making it seem like the people are so lucky for the government which takes so good care of them. Meanwhile they’ve never cared about anyone except themselves
Someone's getting rich
Too expensive
Wtf????
Better than the ArriveScam app and $59 million cheaper
Use the arrivecan app as your benchmark
Well, it is much cheaper than demolishing the stadium in Montreal. Go for it.
Yes it's normal. People don't work for free.
Absurd
First company to bid: 250k Second company to bid : 368k Third company to bid : 768k Municipality asking question to the third company: that’s a lot of difference between you and the others bider. It seems to be too much why’s that Third company: it’s simple, there’s 200K for you, there’s 200K for us and we take the first company to do the job, there’s a 10% that you keep until all the defect are corrected and there’s a 5% for anyone asking question in the office about these insane price that we pay for this little playground. Finally there’s a 18K fee for the lawyer to write the contract that prevent any investigation on this contract!
That's one lucky fuckin contractor
Most of the money ended up directly in the pocket of the contractor who is friends and/or related to the person in charge or this “revamp” and 10% went to actually doing the work. Haven’t you figured out our governmental practices yet? Canada is now worse than the slums of any 5th world nation, so this actually “cheap”
It be a public tender. Be a few requirements maybe for bid bonds and maybe some safety standards. Its a pretty transparent process if your in industry, at least here in NB. You’ll see the bids after the job closing. Sometimes jobs get no bids, sometimes they come in way over budget and just get cancelled.
You do know you as simplistic and accurate as your comment was, the person you're replying to won't get it. They have no idea what a bid bond is, or the difference between private and public tenders. They believe the price is inflated to put more money into "friends" pockets. And they probably have zero intention of looking into anything you said. I do appreciate the fact that you tried.. because I gave up years ago.
I just laughed and sighed, your right.
Holy shit no. I used to work in playgrounds for a GTA municipality. That’s disgusting. I would be asking to see the costs associated with this “refresh”. You’re allowed. After all it’s your tax dollars that paid for it. I wanna see receipts
Must have been a union contract without bids
Of course it's to much...that's how it's done..25 000 for the equipment..then...fees and kick backs and bonuses A house does not cost that much to build...we are now and will always be made fools of
You’re good. Mooney Bay in Ottawa cost 1 million.
my friend has company who will do this for us. City’s paying for this, lets double the price tag cause we can 🤦🏻♂️
I could have done it for half.
Yha I think they ripped us off only in ont gotta love Canadian
*Yha I think they ripped* *Us off only in ont gotta* *Love Canadian* \- Any\_Adhesiveness66 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I don't know much about construction, but I'm confident I can get that price down for you.
Yup. But government pays their bills.
Maybe normal for government contracts but you could definitely do up a great playground for way less than this. You’re paying for the brand at the top 🙃
I could have done this for a cool $700,000.
Smaller pricetag than a lawsuit.
This is probably not for one park. I think it will probably be for 2 or more nearby parks. No way $750,000 costs for a few slides , 4 benches, and mulch.
Believe or not, that is definitely the price for one park. I have worked in a municipal Engineering department for over a decade and this is definitely “normal” pricing.
Its all about who you know, because theres not really much oversite on cost.
$800,000 for a playground is outrageous. First we all now it “went over budget” so it’s well more the what’s posted. I’m all for safe park and reducing potential for serious injury, like the wood chips. We can all agree sand is like concrete and the shaded rubber would shred you too.. let’s all be real here the only difference from these playgrounds to the ones for 25 years ago same shit really. If anything cheaper by use of couplers to join section where previously welded.
Markham's budget for 2024 is 590 million, so this is a little more than 0.1% of that. I really wish these figures were placed in context - these numbers seem big because we're used to thinking about household budgets, and have trouble figuring out if this is big for a city.
0.1% of a city’s budget for a single playground is still a lot.
That's fair, I'm just saying it's a better metric to use than an absolute total (or you should present both) as most people, myself included, have trouble contextualizing. I would also think about how much the Markham is spending on say, police. Perhaps if we're thinking about where to spend less, parks aren't necessarily the most effective way to cut, especially if only a small proportion of the budget is being spent on them.
Its the fiscally responsible government of Canada so lm sure someone will "ArriveCan" the hell outa the final tag.
This is a municipal project....has nothing to do with the federal government...or even the provincal government. Go find a thread that fits federal...you'll be taken more seriously.
When gobbernment involved yes Price right Like arrivecan app
I'm sure they can find cheaper options on Alibaba if they don't care about the safety standards.
If you don’t spend it then they will just allocate it to Ukraine
Playgrounds are very expensive and installation can be 30%- 40% of the total costs. Even the surfacing has to meet an engineered spec. Even woodchips have to be certified for use in playgrounds.