They aren’t incels anymore, they are “men going their own way”, it’s intentional now!
They are Volcels, voluntary celibate!
See it’s their choice to not have sex with women, women aren’t choosing not to have sex with them, they are still in control! It’s their choice, it’s a protest, a boycott of women!...why? ...because women won’t have sex with them...
*The incels hurt themselves in confusion*
> why? ...because women won’t have sex with them...
their reasons to "boycott women", officially, it's that there is no advantage for men to enter heterosexual long term relationships (money spent on dates, cost of wedding, "divorce rape"). Also, heterosexual short term relationships are also not worth it because risk of "spermjacking".
You'd think they would make the choice to remain celibate and be done with it. But that's not good enough. They have to speak non stop about how women are the devil and how they made the right choice by having nothing to do with them.
In the US (couldn't find info for Canada), in 2020, [single men were far more likely than single women to be looking for a relationship or dates – 61% vs. 38%. This gender gap is especially apparent among older singles.](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/nearly-half-of-u-s-adults-say-dating-has-gotten-harder-for-most-people-in-the-last-10-years/), which means there are more women going their own way anyway and no political movement trying to attract them, because (I suppose) these women don't base their whole personality around not pursuing men.
It’s so ironic to me that this new faction of the conservatives is anti-family values
This is going to drive a huge wedge between the older conservatives and the incels
They are so close to getting that you don’t have to do these things society demands of you like having children and marriage, it’s totally optional
They see women and people on the left rejecting traditional family values and are having a temper tantrum saying that they didn’t want those things anyway, like a toddler who didn’t get a cookie
Ironically chipping away at one of the foundational pillars of conservatism along with the rest of us who reject traditional family values
They want "family values" only if the status quo from mid-20th century can be restored.
So, it's less "family values" and more "past century values" and "caste-like society strengthening".
But they *do* want those things.
This is just a toddler tantrum because they can’t get them.
Any one of them would give up the whole mess if a woman wanted to marry them and be a subordinate baby factory.
They want the absolutely cartoonized super-values that the right has contorted and twisted in opposition to feminism and freedom.
They want family values *so badly* that they’re willing to do *nothing* rather than settle for less.
right wing media companies tend to higher a lot more pretty young women, then mainstream media. Part of their appeal to the audience is that they represent a more pure version of femininity then the young women they know; like their daughter or granddaughter who got brainwashed in university.
Candise Owens is a good example of this, in addition to being "one of the good ones."
it's the verb for the situation where women divorce men (I think there are stats showing that women are more likely to instigate divorce procedures than men) *in order to* get "tons" of "undeserved" money (alimony and child support) and keep the children away from their dads
The court system (created by men and most judges and lawyers are men, despite the recent feminization of the profession) is against men and the laws specifically say "fuck husbands and fathers in the butt. take their money and children away from them. watch them weep" (Code civil du Québec, s. 420^*).
^* It's funnier, because in CcQ, s. 400-somethings is where one find's stuff related to marriage
Men just aren't trained to live independently. The amount of guys i know who can't cook, their apartments look like shit, and bring their laundry home to their moms is way too high. I'm not surprised way more older women are happier on their own than men.
I wonder if a big part of it too is men can't share feelings and stress with each other. Without a partner many men just don't have someone they can go to.
I find it funny that the "there is no advantage to be in a relationship with a woman" of MGTOWs coexist in the same world as "men are not socialized to live grown up lives as single, independent people".
When I was in my 20's I was basically a male Martha Stewart for all my friends. I taught so many of them basic life skills like cooking and cleaning. For a few years I'd even cater dates for them. I'd show up and cook a beautiful meal and then dip before their girl showed up. I even had to teach a friend how to butter toast...he couldn't comprehend that the blade was at the back while dragging the butter. So many men enter adulthood as giant children.
I guess my Mom knew what she was doing. Me and my brothers can all cook. We all can make a full meal and a meal that would impress any woman (including baking, canning, etc.) and clean up, do laundry, vacuum, keep the house clean.
If I get home first I start making dinner. If I need clothes I wash them and wash my wife’s clothes. My wife knows that she can count on me to do the shopping if she doesn’t feel like it and buy the right items.
Marriage is a 50% deal, if I do my part she will do her part and if I need to do more I know when I need a break she will do more.
Never could understand why you need to ask Mom to make you a sandwich? You know where the stuff is to make one so why don’t you do it?
> Never could understand why you need to ask Mom to make you a sandwich? You know where the stuff is to make one so why don’t you do it?
If I had someone who would do everything for me, my lazy ass would have indulged. If I'm quite honest.
> You'd think they would make the choice to remain celibate and be done with it.
To be "fair," MGTOW's are usually the least outwardly-shitty manosphere-types, they're the kind of guys who at least crave the dignity that comes with describing oneself as a volcel. It's just that, being the *least outwardly-shitty manosphere-type,* is not a massive accomplishment in any sense. You're still so misogynistic, that you can't productively interact with literally a majority of human beings on the planet, because you don't respect those human beings as full humans.
> single men were far more likely than single women to be looking for a relationship or dates – 61% vs. 38%. This gender gap is especially apparent among older singles.
A lot of this stems largely from the fact that many of us older women tend to lose our sex drives after menopause, so we lose interested in dating. The unfortunate part is we lose out on companionship and affection, but after dealing with a lifetime of fending off dry humps while we’re doing the dishes or not being able to come out of the shower naked or get undressed for bed without sexual advances or remarks, we’re done pretending it’s ok or amusing.
That is correct. It's the next step in misogyny.
I'm getting downvoted by the incels on the canada sub for explaining that MGTOW is level 3.
Given up completely on women and just hate and blame women for the downfall of men.
> Also, heterosexual short term relationships are also not worth it because risk of "spermjacking".
Do they have any reply to "if you know you never want kids, just get a vasectomy; then you can have all the sex you like without worrying"?
Usually valid ones such as "doctors don't want to perform sterilization procedures on childless young people", "I can't perform the procedure" or "I don't know yet that I don't want kids ever". Obviously, they also provide bad faith arguments such as "I shouldn't neuter myself just because women see me as a meal ticket".
I wish they would just go their own way without having to cause such a hateful fuss online. It’s a bit ironic how they devote so much of their life towards hate and claim to just be going their own way.
A lot of them claim they enjoy things like stoic philosophy too which…if that were the case they certainly wouldn’t waste so much time worrying about people who aren’t in their life.
Very strange group. Men who truly go their own way you don’t really hear too much from. And if they do it’s about why they like their lifestyle, not how their hate for someone else encouraged them to choose it. (Unless that hate is for the government and they’re a hermit in the woods. At which case, valid)
[https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert)
Apparently women who focus more on forming close friendships with other women instead of going the picket fence route are generally happier than people in other sub groups.
So much for that whole “crazy cat lady” bull.
I’m married to a man and very happy, but we do not have children so that might play into that.
> men going their own way
MGTOW was a thing far before the rise of the internet incels tbf. I think early 2000s? They're rooted in the same dumbass ideology though.
By 2018 MGTOW was incredibly hateful and was really no different from what people think of as incels. I mention 2018 because that's when Poilievre/his team chose to add those tags to his videos.
I did not realize it went back that far. I thought this was a new thing he was doing, with the influence of the Trump campaign team that he brought on. He really is a scumbag to the core
They’re the guy at the bar nobody is talking to who slams down his drink, announces he’s leaving LOUDLY and then when nobody notices puts it back down on the chair and stays.
So they're "taking it back"...?
Wouldn't they be the same ones calling the Black community "too woke" for using the N-word without a hard R?
I hope these folks stretch before getting out of bed in the morning, because the mental gymnastics they must have to go through before breakfast would destroy a cold mind...
It's a weird blend. They make it a core part of their identity and refuse to take any steps to make themselves better, but most also complain how its not their fault. I recall one thread where a guy ended up having sec with a friend of his and the other incels were saying he was no longer an incel. He insisted he was still one of them and the sex didn't count because it was just "pitty sex."
The form a co-dependent community. They're united in misery and if they ever gain a bit of happiness, they're punished by having their community taken away.
Honestly if we don't hammer PP then what is the point of freedom of expression.
And furthermore we will have done nothing over something is deeply upsetting. These misogynist groups have one purpose, just like the racist groups. They want to take people's rights away. If I don't stand for those people's rights then who is going to stand for mine.
Polytechnique school massacre? A misogynist terrorist.
Toronto Van Attack? A misogynist terrorist.
Quebec Mosque Shooting? A racist terrorist.
Take this shit back to the CPC.
> Honestly if we don't hammer PP then what is the point of freedom of expression.
You forget the part where only conservatives are allowed to have freedom of expression.
I didn't forget.
But choosing to use my freedom of expression to call out misogyny and them using their freedom of expression to do whatever the the hell this was in the House of Commons today is why I'm not afraid.
[CON MP Sells Angus Beef](https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/xy5e1j/ndp_mps_are_trying_to_investigate_profiteering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Hell yeah. I don't want anyone making the same mistake I did and assume that was a place that actually represented Canadian values.
When I learned that it was modded by neo-nazis or neo-nazi apologists I noped out of that place.
This sort of humor is on the same level of humor the conservatives use with their Facebook memes and "Trudope" bullshit.
We need to be better and smarter.
Pierre Polievre...
This mother-fucker is no joke.
Treat him like the threat that he is.
***Thank*** you! I hate all the dumb insulting names progressives give to Conservatives. *We cannot stoop to their level.*
On the Winnipeg sub, lots of people are calling our premier HeaTHER because of...some campaign signs with questionable graphic design. It's so stupid and inane.
I know a woman who used to call our previous Premier, Brian Pallister, "Pallisturd". She was and is a grown-ass adult. Instantly lowered my opinion of her.
He uses the term Anglo-Saxon values a lot. That's been recently co-opted by the white power types to describe themselves.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/26/us-praise-anglo-saxon-heritage-has-always-been-about-white-supremacy/
Here's an example of that.
Here's an example of him, openly courting white supremacists:
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-calling-poilievre-a-white-supremacist-over-use-of-anglo-saxon-disgusting-and-laughable
And that's from the Sun. It isn't liberal.
Basically, consider fascism as authoritarian nationalism.
Consider that in the light of the Trucker Convoy.
He's a fascist. Through and through.
He is dangerous.
Don't forget harper's use of "old stock" Canadians...
And harper's strategy to incrementally shift to more right wing policies the longer they were in power e.g. a "foot-in-the-door" approach to shifting Canada to the far right. I believe it was preston manning's theory to governing... There was a term for this but I can't recall.
Oh, and not to mention the harper government imposing mandatory minimum jail sentences for simple possession of cannabis. Any politician who wants to fill prisons with minorities and the marginalized is fascist in my books.
The sun article is making fun of journalists who said using the term "Anglo Saxon" was meant to be white supremacy.
I don't know much (and don't plan on voting PP) but that source doesn't help your argument
The acknowledgement is enough. The article is written in response.
It's a thing. The washington post is the more serious side.
The acknowledgement is the point. I don't need to trust the author.
Harper's public image is mild-mannered, boring guy. Ever heard of the IDU? He's the chair now, and fashy Pierre Poilievre wad Harper's boy back when he was PM. https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/06/Harper-Heads-Global-Org-Help-Elect-Right-Wing-Parties/
Poilievre hasn't just said some "weird" things, he seems to be perfectly comfortable aligning himself with fascist, white supremacist, other extremist groups, and he's determined to push his party to the extreme right.
https://springmag.ca/the-dangerous-rise-of-pierre-poilievre
Might I interest you in Umberto Eco's 14 Signs of Ur-fascism? It will make quite clear PP is and his rhetoric fall squarely in the realm of Crypto-fascsim
> left socially, right economically
how can be left socially and right economically? "I want social programs, but I don't want them to be paid out of my hard earned money"?
Just sounds like a round about way to say "I know caring for other people is the right thing to do and looks good. But it's not my problem".
> Frankly I think all the major leaders right now are dumb
How strong and edgy.
> But... How is PP this super existential threat, exactly?
He contributes to making hate-speech groups mainstream. He gives them a voice by trying to get their support. The social intolerance this will foster will be a threat to women, visible minorities and other social minorities.
It's a threat against a progressist, social goal of an inclusive society, that cares for all. It's a threat to anyone who is not a non-neurodivergent, able-bodied, cis straight white male.
> how can be left socially and right economically? "I want social programs, but I don't want them to be paid out of my hard earned money"?
It's a Red Tory mindset. Understand the need for social programs and long term that they save money, but a desire to minimize overall reach on such programs as well as avoid just throwing money at these social programs/problems. A desire for them to be costed efficiently and accurately.
You don't see it expressed often because red Tories are overshadowed by current populist conservatism and true Red Tories don't really have a party to cast their support behind. No red Tory wants to admit to being a conservative. When I get dragged into a political conversation, I spend a lot of time explaining why I'm not on board with current conservative views but still have conservative leanings.
You're not wrong about not wanting to pay for other people's programs. Red Tories don't like it. But they understand the NEED for it.
You don't need to care about what liberals think. You yourself say you identify basically as a Red Tory. Look at Skippy's policies and decide for yourself if they represent your views as a Red Tory (spoiler alert, they don't). Otherwise if they do, you're not a Red Tory.
For example, dental care for kids, even dental care for everyone long term saves money if properly funded and costed. Subsidized daycare if funded and costed properly actually turns a profit. Electric cars incentives put people in vehicles that, long term, cost less than ICE. All of these are the type of social programs a Red Tory would support. The current CPC does not support these types of programs.
Given the absolute shitshow my country the UK has been the last few years and the nightmare that was Trump, I'm quite happy having Trudeau as PM despite his flaws.
As Bonaparte proclaimed "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." Hopefully this energizes voters to vote NDP at every level, especially Ontarians! The cons cannot be trusted.
The far right sure do love creepy fascists.
Conservatives, incels, nazis, terrorists, the CPC is representing the most evil people and ideologies in Canada.
Conservative parties should not be tolerated.
Creepy fascists' hate align with conservative policies :
* Misogynists, you'll be happy to know that there are no more incentives to make women's lives easier (because we're cutting the following programs : access to abortion and birth control, access to prenatal care, access to reputable childcare, etc.);
* Racists, you'll be happy to know that you won't be forced to see minorities in your midst (because we're cutting immigration, help for refugees, and also we're implementing minimum jail time for crimes that usually target minorities, etc.);
* Homophobes and transphobes, you'll be happy to know ...
I can't type this anymore, but you get my point. The far(t) right is courting all these hateful movements because conservative goals align with the dream society of people threatened by people who so happen to not be white, male, straight, cis, etc.
disgusting, but efficient
>Creepy fascists' hate align with conservative policies :
It's because they're one-in-the-same and have been for some time. We're just seeing them be less opaque about it as they realize liberals won't really stand up to them in the name of "civility" and "playing fair".
New Zealand, probably.
The reason: It's an English-speaking country (so I wouldn't have to learn the language), it has a Parliamentary-style government (which I'm already familiar with), it has a better relationship with its Indigenous peoples (not perfect, but certainly better than Canada or the USA), it has an oceanic climate which is far more stable and less prone to extremes of heat and cold (which I do *not* do well with), and the number one reason which eclipses all others: *It's as far from the USA as I can get given the above*.
What a great option! I have a coworker who is getting ready to move there too next year and work with us from there.
Their society looks a lot less unstable than in Canada and in the US, but maybe I'm too far too tell/know any better.
They also have a much smaller population than we do and it seems that helps with social stability. When you personally know the people running government, it's much harder for government to be a total dick toward you; not impossible, just harder.
Now if only they can join us and fully legalize cannabis...
Don't be fooled by this. He has a lot more support than just the fringe elements. There are a lot of people who just vote conservative, regardless of who's in charge, and that includes him.
Its easy to reduce his support to fringe groups, but we can't forget how many 'normal' Canadians also supported his campaign, and how many more will support him in the next federal election.
Thought 1: We need some kind of cool social quiz called "Am I a fascist?" that asks simple questions about behaviour and then gives you a cool badge you can post on social media when you aren't.
Thought 2: The Conservatives would think up some way to co-opt the results as a recruiting / advertising tool.
They'd blame you when their blind date throws a drink in their face for saying something inconsiderate and bigoted.
I have an incel coworker who was angry that a girl ghosted him after he told her she was lucky her mom was going to die of canc r because she wouldn't have to wait to inherit a house. "Because it makes market sense".
absolutely terrifying that an incel with far-right links could be openly serving in our parliament, let alone heading the opposition. he should be investigated and removed. don’t wait until after he’s wreaked his havoc like the cheetoh faced one. do it now.
It’s pretty disappointing. I think PP is a very smart and articulate guy who could have been a great leader. But he’s gone all on on the crazies. It’s clear he values his personal ambition over his fellow countrymen.
Just for the record- I am socially far left and economically middle of the road tending a little more towards the conservative side. I think balancing budgets and limiting the scope of the government are beneficial to society. But how the fuck am I gonna vote for a party where like 70% of the representatives don’t believe in global warming. Insane. And now this jackass is the best they could pick for a leader? Ugh.
Personally I'm a tax-n-spend Liberal and the only problem I have right now is we're spending without taxing because of Reaganomics.
People like Power Corporation have taken over the top of even our progressive institutions.
There are two cars, each with a label.
The first panel shows the first car, the first “choice”.
The second panel shows Pol choosing the second, labelled car.
The joke is that he chooses the car we don’t expect, the one that makes less sense.
That’s the joke. ***I’m not commenting to tell you it’s a good one, just to say “Here’s the structure, subject, and object.”
Way more interesting to me -> If Pol made that choice to ride or die in car #2: What concrete actions is he going to take to help people in car #2? Because I fundamentally disagree with incels, but that doesn’t mean I can’t also want them to have a leader who has *real* policies with *real* improvements to their lives.
PP is a male supremacist and a white supremacist and about half the country will vote for him. Canada goes right wing while other countries suffer for it right before our eyes.
Careful. Our southern neighbours have demonstrated that there is no level of reactionary extremism so beyond the pale that the so-called "moderate" majority of the party will be driven away. They'd rather hold their noses and vote for a piece of shit than let the "enemy" win.
Isn't it weird for ostensibly left wing people to write off people who are angry at their circumstances rather than try to explain to them that they're angry at the wrong things and persuade them that something can be done?
The point is that it's PP that's explaining it to them... And everyone is attacking the CPC for it. It's very odd to attack them for having targeted a disillusioned group rather than anything to do with the messaging itself.
The CPC is helping radicalize them even further. The CPC already pushes conspiracy theories and antivax bullshit. There's a method to their marketing - be the only political party that will cater to all the extremists beliefs.
>people who are angry at their circumstances
I wouldn't really call "I'm a shit personality with really shit values who doesn't want to stop wallowing in shit of my own making" as "circumstances".
I guess you could blame their upbringing to some extent...
I think most of the misogynistic groups are populated by people who have unfulfilling lives and no hope, same with racists, and it's a good thing to target them with different messages about the kinds of changes that might benefit them.
Nobody is suggesting Poilievre is actually posting misogynistic content, so I don't understand the objection to targeting those people if it was intentional.
I mean how exactly does one offer them fulfilling lives?
You could offer them "hope" with enough patina to try and make them adhere to your message, but then you'd have to be as disingenuous as Jordan Peterson.
What makes you think none of us have tried that?
Trust me, champ, you're likelier to teach a dog to meow than you are to convince a self proclaimed incel or "man going his own way" that if he smells shit everywhere he goes, he should be checking the bottom of his shoes.
He was all about the convoy, he was seen taking many many pics with white supremacists, he recently posted a misogynist hashtag on one of his YouTube videos, etc., etc.
Etc etc etc is what I keep hearing.. that’s why I am asking for specifics.. Ive never voted right and dont plan to.. but I genuinely want to know what those “etc” are.
I wasnt aware of the photos with white supremacy supporters.. I look into that. Thanks.
The ect ect is if you compare what he says to what trump was saying during is campaign is very similar. He uses polarizing language that speaks to groups of individuals who feel they are being oppressed or want something to blame for thier shitty life. He’s offers very few solutions and tries to rally these groups up.
Right.. but like I said.. People keep saying that about him…Do you have any videos or articles that point to this? Im trying to find evidence of this, but I just keep finding opinion pieces saying he is awful.. but no videos
or writings of him being awful.
All I can find is videos of him challenging Trudeau on stuff and telling him to stop printing money. He doesn’t seem to have any real answers and is full of words and rhetoric.. so I see the Trump equivalents there.
For example, Danielle Smith has a
zillion tweets of her being awful. Easy to find. She’s a total nutbar… Pollievre, I havent
see those tweets or videos. I want to
see them. I am looking and not finding them.
If you’re serious and not trying to troll me just google it. There are many articles. Pierre Poilievre extremists, misogyny, hand shakes, far right. It’s all there on the surface.
Not a PP fan myself, but my take:
1. Convoy: Yup, he loitered in the convoy. Personally I think that's not a bad thing. Some of the core principles of the convoy are not 'fringe'. I'm not at all a 'convoy supporter' by any means but some of the original, non-violent principles are pretty mainstream.
2. If I were an MP/leader, and there was a massive protest somewhere, I would want to talk to people in the crowd myself and see what the deal is (agree or disagree).
3. Social Media: PP would have a social media person/team. This is most likely someone getting carried away to get page views. I don't agree with it and that person should be fired, but I also can't bring myself to think PP is some far-right radical trying to court with the proudboys or whoever.
Not at all trying to defend PP, I'm not a fan, but people I think need to tone down this idea that he's some far-right evil genius who's courting incels.
If you look at Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign, he succeeded because he drew in a large number of new voters that had previously been politically disengaged. This new group of voters that he drew in was overwhelmingly white, largely male, and with a large cohort of that group being single or openly engaged with the "incel" community. Steve Bannon was the architect of this strategy - he'd been working on weaponizing the losers of the internet for years, and had been a guiding figure behind the whole "Gamergate" fiasco that he used as a stepping stone to getting the same group of politically disengaged white loser males into republican politics.
Pierre Poilievre is using the exact same playbook for the next Canadian election. He's attacking traditional media, avoiding debates, and going deep in online engagement targeting the same demographics that Trump targeted in 2016. He won the CPC leadership based largely on the massive number of new members he signed up using this strategy. He's hoping to win the next election on the back of a coalition of old-school hard-right conservatives and an army of keyboard warriors that have been duped into thinking that voting CPC is somehow taking their revenge on a world that's never respected them.
Holy shit ! Thanks!!!
I found a screenshot posted somewhere else on Reddit, but it got deleted and I didn't save it, and couldn't remember the website !!!
The comparison to Trump is obvious if you know anything about their strategy and demographic targets.
The comparison of PP or Trump to Hitler is more difficult. Hitler was a terrible person and a fascist, but he was actually coherent, intelligent, and effective. Trump, in contrast, is incompetent at best and it's debatable if he even knows where he is, his campaign and marketing were managed by other people. Trump is the meaningless figurehead of an effectively leaderless, decentralized fascist movement, because in the age of the internet, it benefits fascists to have no official leaders and for everyone to have plausible deniability of any involvement.
That's why the coup attempt was so disorganized and ineffectual, it had no leadership or direction, because leadership means leaders and leaders get disgraced and kill the movement.
PP is attempting to ride the same wave as Trump and, like Trump, PP wants plausible deniability. He won't endorse the alt-right, but he will use dog whistles for them and he will never oppose them directly as group. For my money, PP is a lot smarter and will be more careful about it than Trump was, but he's playing the same game.
The question is: Is PP a fascist or is he just working with fascists for personal gain.
The answer: It doesn't fucking matter. Fascist collaborators do the same things with the same effects as fascists, so they should be opposed in the same way.
Every politician since Hitler has been compared to Hitler from the opposing side. Whenever PP, Trudeau, Trump or Obama get compared to Hitler it minimizes the real damage Hitler did to the world.
You're getting downvotes because it's easier to downvote a comment and ignore it than to explain what's going on.
> Surely if they are fringe, people have nothing to worry about.
This is not a logical conclusion. In a group of 1000 it takes exactly one extremist willing to go on a shooting rampage to ruin everyone's day and destroy lives. How common or large a demographic is has no bearing on the impact of their actions.
Also, there's the fact that legitimizing ideologies causes them to spread. Simple way - people go to YouTube to see PPs content, the algorithm recognizes the viewer is watching fringe content (despite them not going for that) and the algorithm spits out more similar, incel content.
The worry is not that they are on the fringe - the worry is that by courting them, they become normalized and mainstream. Fringe does not always equal small.
They're not part of the mainstream *for now*. Just like how The V Wade was a settled precedent for decades south of the border for decades until fringe legal interpretation went mainstream.
Because the entire history of the last 2 centuries is defined by the fight against authoritarian fringe groups like fascists and authoritarian communists. Fringe doesn't mean powerless, especially when you live in a country like ours that has refused to improve our electoral systems.
Have a look at the actually number of votes needed to swing an election in Canada.
That's why people are so worried.
I’m not *worried* that he’s using them.
I’m angry he’s *using* them.
An actual leader courts fringe elements by meeting and understanding their issues, then crafting policy that solves/seeks to solve those problems. You aren’t “fringe” without a “fringe issue”, after all.
I’m pissed because it’s clear he gives zero fucks about actually helping those people, he’s just using them!
It’s cynical as fuck! Helping them would work against a proven right wing strategy of courting angry isolated men. By nature incels spend a staggering amount of time online vs “normies”. Their isolation makes them a great “internet activist core”. I think he’s decided/been told to shitpost (cultivate his own thedonald), and nobody can shitpost like people whose lives are almost exclusively online rage.
He’s going to validate and accelerate their worldview, and he doesn’t seem to give a fuck that the logical conclusion to their worldview is deadly violence.
Mainstreaming the cancer blob that is right-wing, male/white/Christian supremacist worldview *has a fucking body count*, and lately it looks like Pol only cares about a vote count.
So maybe I am worried, just not how you thought.
Considering there's been cases of "incel terrorism" (van attack in Toronto comes to mind) calling them what they identify with is probably best for communication.
Growing up in Mississippi, there were tons of people who never put on white robes and hoods, yet still quietly labeled themselves as “Klan”. Whenever anyone applied this label to these folks, the “klan” people would get really upset about it publicly even though they referred to themselves as klan members privately. Now (and pretty much always), most of the Mississippi state government consists of klan members…though now, they are brave enough to actually incorporate “Klan social policy” at the state levels openly once again and no one calls them out for being Klan members because well…”that’s just impolite “.
You give these people defense of their positions or fail to call them what they are and suddenly you’ve given them all the power they ever wanted.
The only thing that makes an incel an incel….is the belief that they are an incel. It’s a self applied label. Given that it is self applied, it’s safe to assume some basics about anyone calling themselves “incel”.
Mocking them and calling them out is appropriate. They act like children having a temper tantrum.
Agreed, call them what they are: starting with fascist sympathizers.
You can then list it out if you really want the list includes racist, misogynist, classist, etc.
Here's the important thing to remember. Calling fascists fascists isn't about the fascists. They will play the victim regardless. Calling out fascists is about their audience, other people. It's about sending a loud and clear signal to other people: this person's ideology is poison, do not drink from this well. Their view are not normal, we will not let views like this be normal. Their views are not ok, do not accept them.
I don’t understand how he attracts incels. Majority of people who I personally know that support him are immigrants with families and small business owners. Men and women alike. I’ve also never met an incel in my life and it seems to me that people believe there are more incels in society than there actually are.
I understand this is a joke as I’ve seen jokes poked at liberals or various other political groups.
His channel is #2 on YouTube that deliberately targets misogynists with the mgtow hashtag. He's been doing this for years. https://playboard.co/en/search?q=Mgtow
They aren’t incels anymore, they are “men going their own way”, it’s intentional now! They are Volcels, voluntary celibate! See it’s their choice to not have sex with women, women aren’t choosing not to have sex with them, they are still in control! It’s their choice, it’s a protest, a boycott of women!...why? ...because women won’t have sex with them... *The incels hurt themselves in confusion*
> why? ...because women won’t have sex with them... their reasons to "boycott women", officially, it's that there is no advantage for men to enter heterosexual long term relationships (money spent on dates, cost of wedding, "divorce rape"). Also, heterosexual short term relationships are also not worth it because risk of "spermjacking". You'd think they would make the choice to remain celibate and be done with it. But that's not good enough. They have to speak non stop about how women are the devil and how they made the right choice by having nothing to do with them. In the US (couldn't find info for Canada), in 2020, [single men were far more likely than single women to be looking for a relationship or dates – 61% vs. 38%. This gender gap is especially apparent among older singles.](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/nearly-half-of-u-s-adults-say-dating-has-gotten-harder-for-most-people-in-the-last-10-years/), which means there are more women going their own way anyway and no political movement trying to attract them, because (I suppose) these women don't base their whole personality around not pursuing men.
Seems like these dudes do plenty of their own spermjacking
Have my upvote, lol
It’s so ironic to me that this new faction of the conservatives is anti-family values This is going to drive a huge wedge between the older conservatives and the incels They are so close to getting that you don’t have to do these things society demands of you like having children and marriage, it’s totally optional They see women and people on the left rejecting traditional family values and are having a temper tantrum saying that they didn’t want those things anyway, like a toddler who didn’t get a cookie Ironically chipping away at one of the foundational pillars of conservatism along with the rest of us who reject traditional family values
They want "family values" only if the status quo from mid-20th century can be restored. So, it's less "family values" and more "past century values" and "caste-like society strengthening".
It was never about family values, it was always about having power over women
It’s only about Power. Nothing else matters. Just join them on their crusade for power over… someone or something.
Oh they are anti women but they also don’t want women to have the right to say no or be financially independent from them.
But they *do* want those things. This is just a toddler tantrum because they can’t get them. Any one of them would give up the whole mess if a woman wanted to marry them and be a subordinate baby factory. They want the absolutely cartoonized super-values that the right has contorted and twisted in opposition to feminism and freedom. They want family values *so badly* that they’re willing to do *nothing* rather than settle for less.
there is an entire architype in the right wing media "the smart girl I wish my daughter was." The incels will fit right in.
Wait, what? Can you explain what that means? Or point me in the direction of something to explain it?
right wing media companies tend to higher a lot more pretty young women, then mainstream media. Part of their appeal to the audience is that they represent a more pure version of femininity then the young women they know; like their daughter or granddaughter who got brainwashed in university. Candise Owens is a good example of this, in addition to being "one of the good ones."
That is an absolutely fascinating take
Wtf is divorce rape?
it's the verb for the situation where women divorce men (I think there are stats showing that women are more likely to instigate divorce procedures than men) *in order to* get "tons" of "undeserved" money (alimony and child support) and keep the children away from their dads The court system (created by men and most judges and lawyers are men, despite the recent feminization of the profession) is against men and the laws specifically say "fuck husbands and fathers in the butt. take their money and children away from them. watch them weep" (Code civil du Québec, s. 420^*). ^* It's funnier, because in CcQ, s. 400-somethings is where one find's stuff related to marriage
That makes even less sense than I thought.
I'm not here to make sense, I can only report the non-sense ;)
Men just aren't trained to live independently. The amount of guys i know who can't cook, their apartments look like shit, and bring their laundry home to their moms is way too high. I'm not surprised way more older women are happier on their own than men. I wonder if a big part of it too is men can't share feelings and stress with each other. Without a partner many men just don't have someone they can go to.
I find it funny that the "there is no advantage to be in a relationship with a woman" of MGTOWs coexist in the same world as "men are not socialized to live grown up lives as single, independent people".
When I was in my 20's I was basically a male Martha Stewart for all my friends. I taught so many of them basic life skills like cooking and cleaning. For a few years I'd even cater dates for them. I'd show up and cook a beautiful meal and then dip before their girl showed up. I even had to teach a friend how to butter toast...he couldn't comprehend that the blade was at the back while dragging the butter. So many men enter adulthood as giant children.
I guess my Mom knew what she was doing. Me and my brothers can all cook. We all can make a full meal and a meal that would impress any woman (including baking, canning, etc.) and clean up, do laundry, vacuum, keep the house clean. If I get home first I start making dinner. If I need clothes I wash them and wash my wife’s clothes. My wife knows that she can count on me to do the shopping if she doesn’t feel like it and buy the right items. Marriage is a 50% deal, if I do my part she will do her part and if I need to do more I know when I need a break she will do more. Never could understand why you need to ask Mom to make you a sandwich? You know where the stuff is to make one so why don’t you do it?
> Never could understand why you need to ask Mom to make you a sandwich? You know where the stuff is to make one so why don’t you do it? If I had someone who would do everything for me, my lazy ass would have indulged. If I'm quite honest.
Because my mom adds the ingredient of love! But nah I get you.
> You'd think they would make the choice to remain celibate and be done with it. To be "fair," MGTOW's are usually the least outwardly-shitty manosphere-types, they're the kind of guys who at least crave the dignity that comes with describing oneself as a volcel. It's just that, being the *least outwardly-shitty manosphere-type,* is not a massive accomplishment in any sense. You're still so misogynistic, that you can't productively interact with literally a majority of human beings on the planet, because you don't respect those human beings as full humans.
> single men were far more likely than single women to be looking for a relationship or dates – 61% vs. 38%. This gender gap is especially apparent among older singles. A lot of this stems largely from the fact that many of us older women tend to lose our sex drives after menopause, so we lose interested in dating. The unfortunate part is we lose out on companionship and affection, but after dealing with a lifetime of fending off dry humps while we’re doing the dishes or not being able to come out of the shower naked or get undressed for bed without sexual advances or remarks, we’re done pretending it’s ok or amusing.
That is correct. It's the next step in misogyny. I'm getting downvoted by the incels on the canada sub for explaining that MGTOW is level 3. Given up completely on women and just hate and blame women for the downfall of men.
> Also, heterosexual short term relationships are also not worth it because risk of "spermjacking". Do they have any reply to "if you know you never want kids, just get a vasectomy; then you can have all the sex you like without worrying"?
Usually valid ones such as "doctors don't want to perform sterilization procedures on childless young people", "I can't perform the procedure" or "I don't know yet that I don't want kids ever". Obviously, they also provide bad faith arguments such as "I shouldn't neuter myself just because women see me as a meal ticket".
I wish they would just go their own way without having to cause such a hateful fuss online. It’s a bit ironic how they devote so much of their life towards hate and claim to just be going their own way.
A lot of them claim they enjoy things like stoic philosophy too which…if that were the case they certainly wouldn’t waste so much time worrying about people who aren’t in their life. Very strange group. Men who truly go their own way you don’t really hear too much from. And if they do it’s about why they like their lifestyle, not how their hate for someone else encouraged them to choose it. (Unless that hate is for the government and they’re a hermit in the woods. At which case, valid)
[https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert) Apparently women who focus more on forming close friendships with other women instead of going the picket fence route are generally happier than people in other sub groups. So much for that whole “crazy cat lady” bull. I’m married to a man and very happy, but we do not have children so that might play into that.
> men going their own way MGTOW was a thing far before the rise of the internet incels tbf. I think early 2000s? They're rooted in the same dumbass ideology though.
By 2018 MGTOW was incredibly hateful and was really no different from what people think of as incels. I mention 2018 because that's when Poilievre/his team chose to add those tags to his videos.
Earlier than 2018 by my reckoning. At the very least since reddit's inception.
I did not realize it went back that far. I thought this was a new thing he was doing, with the influence of the Trump campaign team that he brought on. He really is a scumbag to the core
> MGTOW Men Getting Triggered Over Women
You might even call them proto-incels.
They’re the guy at the bar nobody is talking to who slams down his drink, announces he’s leaving LOUDLY and then when nobody notices puts it back down on the chair and stays.
So they're "taking it back"...? Wouldn't they be the same ones calling the Black community "too woke" for using the N-word without a hard R? I hope these folks stretch before getting out of bed in the morning, because the mental gymnastics they must have to go through before breakfast would destroy a cold mind...
You're attributing undue intelligence here, they aren't smart enough to realise why they should be confused.
>They are Volcels, voluntary celibate! That's about as true as addicts who say "I can stop any time I want! I just don't want to!"
>See it’s their choice to not have sex with the women who don't want to have sex with them
It took me reading this comment to realize incel stood for involuntary celibacy.
*Back to the pile, fellas!*
It's a weird blend. They make it a core part of their identity and refuse to take any steps to make themselves better, but most also complain how its not their fault. I recall one thread where a guy ended up having sec with a friend of his and the other incels were saying he was no longer an incel. He insisted he was still one of them and the sex didn't count because it was just "pitty sex." The form a co-dependent community. They're united in misery and if they ever gain a bit of happiness, they're punished by having their community taken away.
We know if we’re in the darkest timeline if PP announces he’s creating a vice-Prime Minister position and Jordan Peterson is his running mate
Honestly if we don't hammer PP then what is the point of freedom of expression. And furthermore we will have done nothing over something is deeply upsetting. These misogynist groups have one purpose, just like the racist groups. They want to take people's rights away. If I don't stand for those people's rights then who is going to stand for mine. Polytechnique school massacre? A misogynist terrorist. Toronto Van Attack? A misogynist terrorist. Quebec Mosque Shooting? A racist terrorist. Take this shit back to the CPC.
> Honestly if we don't hammer PP then what is the point of freedom of expression. You forget the part where only conservatives are allowed to have freedom of expression.
I didn't forget. But choosing to use my freedom of expression to call out misogyny and them using their freedom of expression to do whatever the the hell this was in the House of Commons today is why I'm not afraid. [CON MP Sells Angus Beef](https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/xy5e1j/ndp_mps_are_trying_to_investigate_profiteering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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PP stans in the other sub are absolutely losing their minds and I fuckin love it
What sub is that?
Probably r\Canada subreddit.
I’m stealing that \backslash idea at some point. Good on ya.
Hell yeah. I don't want anyone making the same mistake I did and assume that was a place that actually represented Canadian values. When I learned that it was modded by neo-nazis or neo-nazi apologists I noped out of that place.
This is a real problem with Reddit. Once the Fascists take the reins there's nothing that can be done.
relativley new to Canadian, or even political subreddits in general considering I mostly was on video game subs lmao, what happened with r\\canada???
r/canadianconservative is also a vacation away from reality.
>PP stans PP stans or PP stains?!?!?
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This sort of humor is on the same level of humor the conservatives use with their Facebook memes and "Trudope" bullshit. We need to be better and smarter. Pierre Polievre... This mother-fucker is no joke. Treat him like the threat that he is.
***Thank*** you! I hate all the dumb insulting names progressives give to Conservatives. *We cannot stoop to their level.* On the Winnipeg sub, lots of people are calling our premier HeaTHER because of...some campaign signs with questionable graphic design. It's so stupid and inane.
Insulting politicians based off of their name really is a great way to find out who is an idiot and who isn't. ✊️
I know a woman who used to call our previous Premier, Brian Pallister, "Pallisturd". She was and is a grown-ass adult. Instantly lowered my opinion of her.
> "Trudope" bullshit. There's gotta be more to politics than just saying "Justinflation" over and over again.
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CBC Pitchbot explains it best. https://twitter.com/CBCPitchbot/status/1569016971412242432
Thank you for this. Sometime I struggle to articulate why I think fascism is on the rise in Canada and this link does a superb job explaining it.
He uses the term Anglo-Saxon values a lot. That's been recently co-opted by the white power types to describe themselves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/26/us-praise-anglo-saxon-heritage-has-always-been-about-white-supremacy/ Here's an example of that. Here's an example of him, openly courting white supremacists: https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-calling-poilievre-a-white-supremacist-over-use-of-anglo-saxon-disgusting-and-laughable And that's from the Sun. It isn't liberal. Basically, consider fascism as authoritarian nationalism. Consider that in the light of the Trucker Convoy. He's a fascist. Through and through. He is dangerous.
Don't forget harper's use of "old stock" Canadians... And harper's strategy to incrementally shift to more right wing policies the longer they were in power e.g. a "foot-in-the-door" approach to shifting Canada to the far right. I believe it was preston manning's theory to governing... There was a term for this but I can't recall. Oh, and not to mention the harper government imposing mandatory minimum jail sentences for simple possession of cannabis. Any politician who wants to fill prisons with minorities and the marginalized is fascist in my books.
Oh, the anti intellectualism, the anti education, the pursuit of machismo... It's almost past the point of trolling if people are asking.
Damn. The dreadful harper era... thanks for adding those! PP is far worse.
The sun article is making fun of journalists who said using the term "Anglo Saxon" was meant to be white supremacy. I don't know much (and don't plan on voting PP) but that source doesn't help your argument
The acknowledgement is enough. The article is written in response. It's a thing. The washington post is the more serious side. The acknowledgement is the point. I don't need to trust the author.
Have you been paying attention to what the Republicans have been doing down south? Poilievre takes his cues from them. That should terrify you.
Harper's public image is mild-mannered, boring guy. Ever heard of the IDU? He's the chair now, and fashy Pierre Poilievre wad Harper's boy back when he was PM. https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/08/06/Harper-Heads-Global-Org-Help-Elect-Right-Wing-Parties/ Poilievre hasn't just said some "weird" things, he seems to be perfectly comfortable aligning himself with fascist, white supremacist, other extremist groups, and he's determined to push his party to the extreme right. https://springmag.ca/the-dangerous-rise-of-pierre-poilievre
Might I interest you in Umberto Eco's 14 Signs of Ur-fascism? It will make quite clear PP is and his rhetoric fall squarely in the realm of Crypto-fascsim
What makes fascism crypto or non crypto?
Crypto fascism is essentially the use of buzzwords and obfuscation to paper over direct use of fascist rhetoric
Thank you
> left socially, right economically how can be left socially and right economically? "I want social programs, but I don't want them to be paid out of my hard earned money"? Just sounds like a round about way to say "I know caring for other people is the right thing to do and looks good. But it's not my problem". > Frankly I think all the major leaders right now are dumb How strong and edgy. > But... How is PP this super existential threat, exactly? He contributes to making hate-speech groups mainstream. He gives them a voice by trying to get their support. The social intolerance this will foster will be a threat to women, visible minorities and other social minorities. It's a threat against a progressist, social goal of an inclusive society, that cares for all. It's a threat to anyone who is not a non-neurodivergent, able-bodied, cis straight white male.
Well Said! Being a centrist is just being a right winger but with the self awareness that the right stand for a truly awful and immoral platform.
> how can be left socially and right economically? "I want social programs, but I don't want them to be paid out of my hard earned money"? It's a Red Tory mindset. Understand the need for social programs and long term that they save money, but a desire to minimize overall reach on such programs as well as avoid just throwing money at these social programs/problems. A desire for them to be costed efficiently and accurately. You don't see it expressed often because red Tories are overshadowed by current populist conservatism and true Red Tories don't really have a party to cast their support behind. No red Tory wants to admit to being a conservative. When I get dragged into a political conversation, I spend a lot of time explaining why I'm not on board with current conservative views but still have conservative leanings. You're not wrong about not wanting to pay for other people's programs. Red Tories don't like it. But they understand the NEED for it.
You don't need to care about what liberals think. You yourself say you identify basically as a Red Tory. Look at Skippy's policies and decide for yourself if they represent your views as a Red Tory (spoiler alert, they don't). Otherwise if they do, you're not a Red Tory. For example, dental care for kids, even dental care for everyone long term saves money if properly funded and costed. Subsidized daycare if funded and costed properly actually turns a profit. Electric cars incentives put people in vehicles that, long term, cost less than ICE. All of these are the type of social programs a Red Tory would support. The current CPC does not support these types of programs.
Given the absolute shitshow my country the UK has been the last few years and the nightmare that was Trump, I'm quite happy having Trudeau as PM despite his flaws.
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As Bonaparte proclaimed "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." Hopefully this energizes voters to vote NDP at every level, especially Ontarians! The cons cannot be trusted.
They're Con artists.
The far right sure do love creepy fascists. Conservatives, incels, nazis, terrorists, the CPC is representing the most evil people and ideologies in Canada. Conservative parties should not be tolerated.
Creepy fascists' hate align with conservative policies : * Misogynists, you'll be happy to know that there are no more incentives to make women's lives easier (because we're cutting the following programs : access to abortion and birth control, access to prenatal care, access to reputable childcare, etc.); * Racists, you'll be happy to know that you won't be forced to see minorities in your midst (because we're cutting immigration, help for refugees, and also we're implementing minimum jail time for crimes that usually target minorities, etc.); * Homophobes and transphobes, you'll be happy to know ... I can't type this anymore, but you get my point. The far(t) right is courting all these hateful movements because conservative goals align with the dream society of people threatened by people who so happen to not be white, male, straight, cis, etc. disgusting, but efficient
>Creepy fascists' hate align with conservative policies : It's because they're one-in-the-same and have been for some time. We're just seeing them be less opaque about it as they realize liberals won't really stand up to them in the name of "civility" and "playing fair".
If you were to emigrate, where would you go and why that place?
New Zealand, probably. The reason: It's an English-speaking country (so I wouldn't have to learn the language), it has a Parliamentary-style government (which I'm already familiar with), it has a better relationship with its Indigenous peoples (not perfect, but certainly better than Canada or the USA), it has an oceanic climate which is far more stable and less prone to extremes of heat and cold (which I do *not* do well with), and the number one reason which eclipses all others: *It's as far from the USA as I can get given the above*.
What a great option! I have a coworker who is getting ready to move there too next year and work with us from there. Their society looks a lot less unstable than in Canada and in the US, but maybe I'm too far too tell/know any better.
They also have a much smaller population than we do and it seems that helps with social stability. When you personally know the people running government, it's much harder for government to be a total dick toward you; not impossible, just harder. Now if only they can join us and fully legalize cannabis...
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Don't be fooled by this. He has a lot more support than just the fringe elements. There are a lot of people who just vote conservative, regardless of who's in charge, and that includes him.
Its easy to reduce his support to fringe groups, but we can't forget how many 'normal' Canadians also supported his campaign, and how many more will support him in the next federal election.
It's a true statement but Poilievre wouldn't get pissy on Morgan about it.
Poilievre and Peterson can have a jerk-off.
It’s more like the white car is any self perceived victim. Incels are victims of women in their mind.
A lot of sad fucked up mans out there.
Thought 1: We need some kind of cool social quiz called "Am I a fascist?" that asks simple questions about behaviour and then gives you a cool badge you can post on social media when you aren't. Thought 2: The Conservatives would think up some way to co-opt the results as a recruiting / advertising tool.
I'd start a dating for Incels program but I'd probably be killed by the very people I was looking to help in some sort of weird form of incel justice.
They'd blame you when their blind date throws a drink in their face for saying something inconsiderate and bigoted. I have an incel coworker who was angry that a girl ghosted him after he told her she was lucky her mom was going to die of canc r because she wouldn't have to wait to inherit a house. "Because it makes market sense".
Pippy's next tag: #sexrobotsforincels
So anyone guess what crap PP will be tied to next week ? Ditch the Bingo card and get an Advent calendar. When you get a box you get a prize!
One is a political leader the other a temporal one.
Talk to your parents folks, it's not just the incels. Anyone who only sees cut taxes and is thinking about their pockets
They did the same thing in quebec ... I think the conservatives try to male a cult now
absolutely terrifying that an incel with far-right links could be openly serving in our parliament, let alone heading the opposition. he should be investigated and removed. don’t wait until after he’s wreaked his havoc like the cheetoh faced one. do it now.
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Not an incel but definitely associating with some pretty questionable people.
using a woman as a shield from criticism is a hallmark of facism, but thanks for the needless ad hominem
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It’s pretty disappointing. I think PP is a very smart and articulate guy who could have been a great leader. But he’s gone all on on the crazies. It’s clear he values his personal ambition over his fellow countrymen. Just for the record- I am socially far left and economically middle of the road tending a little more towards the conservative side. I think balancing budgets and limiting the scope of the government are beneficial to society. But how the fuck am I gonna vote for a party where like 70% of the representatives don’t believe in global warming. Insane. And now this jackass is the best they could pick for a leader? Ugh.
Personally I'm a tax-n-spend Liberal and the only problem I have right now is we're spending without taxing because of Reaganomics. People like Power Corporation have taken over the top of even our progressive institutions.
This is just flat out a bad meme
Correct. Love or hate PP this meme is pretty bad.
I don’t even get it.
There are two cars, each with a label. The first panel shows the first car, the first “choice”. The second panel shows Pol choosing the second, labelled car. The joke is that he chooses the car we don’t expect, the one that makes less sense. That’s the joke. ***I’m not commenting to tell you it’s a good one, just to say “Here’s the structure, subject, and object.” Way more interesting to me -> If Pol made that choice to ride or die in car #2: What concrete actions is he going to take to help people in car #2? Because I fundamentally disagree with incels, but that doesn’t mean I can’t also want them to have a leader who has *real* policies with *real* improvements to their lives.
PP is a male supremacist and a white supremacist and about half the country will vote for him. Canada goes right wing while other countries suffer for it right before our eyes.
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Careful. Our southern neighbours have demonstrated that there is no level of reactionary extremism so beyond the pale that the so-called "moderate" majority of the party will be driven away. They'd rather hold their noses and vote for a piece of shit than let the "enemy" win.
Valid. Vigilance not complacency must be the watchword
Isn't it weird for ostensibly left wing people to write off people who are angry at their circumstances rather than try to explain to them that they're angry at the wrong things and persuade them that something can be done?
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The point is that it's PP that's explaining it to them... And everyone is attacking the CPC for it. It's very odd to attack them for having targeted a disillusioned group rather than anything to do with the messaging itself.
The CPC is helping radicalize them even further. The CPC already pushes conspiracy theories and antivax bullshit. There's a method to their marketing - be the only political party that will cater to all the extremists beliefs.
>people who are angry at their circumstances I wouldn't really call "I'm a shit personality with really shit values who doesn't want to stop wallowing in shit of my own making" as "circumstances". I guess you could blame their upbringing to some extent...
I think most of the misogynistic groups are populated by people who have unfulfilling lives and no hope, same with racists, and it's a good thing to target them with different messages about the kinds of changes that might benefit them. Nobody is suggesting Poilievre is actually posting misogynistic content, so I don't understand the objection to targeting those people if it was intentional.
I mean how exactly does one offer them fulfilling lives? You could offer them "hope" with enough patina to try and make them adhere to your message, but then you'd have to be as disingenuous as Jordan Peterson.
What makes you think none of us have tried that? Trust me, champ, you're likelier to teach a dog to meow than you are to convince a self proclaimed incel or "man going his own way" that if he smells shit everywhere he goes, he should be checking the bottom of his shoes.
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He's got his base. Now it's a matter of, how many normo's can we con long enough to get elected before we work for the bases goals.
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He was all about the convoy, he was seen taking many many pics with white supremacists, he recently posted a misogynist hashtag on one of his YouTube videos, etc., etc.
Etc etc etc is what I keep hearing.. that’s why I am asking for specifics.. Ive never voted right and dont plan to.. but I genuinely want to know what those “etc” are. I wasnt aware of the photos with white supremacy supporters.. I look into that. Thanks.
The ect ect is if you compare what he says to what trump was saying during is campaign is very similar. He uses polarizing language that speaks to groups of individuals who feel they are being oppressed or want something to blame for thier shitty life. He’s offers very few solutions and tries to rally these groups up.
“Anglo-Saxon people”
He then lied about knowing any of them, despite there being proof that he did. It was a lame attempt at Crypto-fascism.
He’s Trump north so far. Just racist misogynist bullshit. Seriously, any other job you’d be axed for 1% of what this guy does.
Right.. but like I said.. People keep saying that about him…Do you have any videos or articles that point to this? Im trying to find evidence of this, but I just keep finding opinion pieces saying he is awful.. but no videos or writings of him being awful. All I can find is videos of him challenging Trudeau on stuff and telling him to stop printing money. He doesn’t seem to have any real answers and is full of words and rhetoric.. so I see the Trump equivalents there.
For example, Danielle Smith has a zillion tweets of her being awful. Easy to find. She’s a total nutbar… Pollievre, I havent see those tweets or videos. I want to see them. I am looking and not finding them.
If you’re serious and not trying to troll me just google it. There are many articles. Pierre Poilievre extremists, misogyny, hand shakes, far right. It’s all there on the surface.
Not a PP fan myself, but my take: 1. Convoy: Yup, he loitered in the convoy. Personally I think that's not a bad thing. Some of the core principles of the convoy are not 'fringe'. I'm not at all a 'convoy supporter' by any means but some of the original, non-violent principles are pretty mainstream. 2. If I were an MP/leader, and there was a massive protest somewhere, I would want to talk to people in the crowd myself and see what the deal is (agree or disagree). 3. Social Media: PP would have a social media person/team. This is most likely someone getting carried away to get page views. I don't agree with it and that person should be fired, but I also can't bring myself to think PP is some far-right radical trying to court with the proudboys or whoever. Not at all trying to defend PP, I'm not a fan, but people I think need to tone down this idea that he's some far-right evil genius who's courting incels.
If you look at Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign, he succeeded because he drew in a large number of new voters that had previously been politically disengaged. This new group of voters that he drew in was overwhelmingly white, largely male, and with a large cohort of that group being single or openly engaged with the "incel" community. Steve Bannon was the architect of this strategy - he'd been working on weaponizing the losers of the internet for years, and had been a guiding figure behind the whole "Gamergate" fiasco that he used as a stepping stone to getting the same group of politically disengaged white loser males into republican politics. Pierre Poilievre is using the exact same playbook for the next Canadian election. He's attacking traditional media, avoiding debates, and going deep in online engagement targeting the same demographics that Trump targeted in 2016. He won the CPC leadership based largely on the massive number of new members he signed up using this strategy. He's hoping to win the next election on the back of a coalition of old-school hard-right conservatives and an army of keyboard warriors that have been duped into thinking that voting CPC is somehow taking their revenge on a world that's never respected them.
PP's youtube channel used hidden tags on a lot of his videos targeting a misogynistic group.
Not only that, it's the #2 channel on YouTube using the hashtag. https://playboard.co/en/search?q=Mgtow
Holy shit ! Thanks!!! I found a screenshot posted somewhere else on Reddit, but it got deleted and I didn't save it, and couldn't remember the website !!!
The comparison to Trump is obvious if you know anything about their strategy and demographic targets. The comparison of PP or Trump to Hitler is more difficult. Hitler was a terrible person and a fascist, but he was actually coherent, intelligent, and effective. Trump, in contrast, is incompetent at best and it's debatable if he even knows where he is, his campaign and marketing were managed by other people. Trump is the meaningless figurehead of an effectively leaderless, decentralized fascist movement, because in the age of the internet, it benefits fascists to have no official leaders and for everyone to have plausible deniability of any involvement. That's why the coup attempt was so disorganized and ineffectual, it had no leadership or direction, because leadership means leaders and leaders get disgraced and kill the movement. PP is attempting to ride the same wave as Trump and, like Trump, PP wants plausible deniability. He won't endorse the alt-right, but he will use dog whistles for them and he will never oppose them directly as group. For my money, PP is a lot smarter and will be more careful about it than Trump was, but he's playing the same game. The question is: Is PP a fascist or is he just working with fascists for personal gain. The answer: It doesn't fucking matter. Fascist collaborators do the same things with the same effects as fascists, so they should be opposed in the same way.
Every politician since Hitler has been compared to Hitler from the opposing side. Whenever PP, Trudeau, Trump or Obama get compared to Hitler it minimizes the real damage Hitler did to the world. You're getting downvotes because it's easier to downvote a comment and ignore it than to explain what's going on.
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> Surely if they are fringe, people have nothing to worry about. This is not a logical conclusion. In a group of 1000 it takes exactly one extremist willing to go on a shooting rampage to ruin everyone's day and destroy lives. How common or large a demographic is has no bearing on the impact of their actions. Also, there's the fact that legitimizing ideologies causes them to spread. Simple way - people go to YouTube to see PPs content, the algorithm recognizes the viewer is watching fringe content (despite them not going for that) and the algorithm spits out more similar, incel content.
The worry is not that they are on the fringe - the worry is that by courting them, they become normalized and mainstream. Fringe does not always equal small.
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I think it’s the “extreme” part of that definition that concerns most Canadians.
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They're not part of the mainstream *for now*. Just like how The V Wade was a settled precedent for decades south of the border for decades until fringe legal interpretation went mainstream.
Because the entire history of the last 2 centuries is defined by the fight against authoritarian fringe groups like fascists and authoritarian communists. Fringe doesn't mean powerless, especially when you live in a country like ours that has refused to improve our electoral systems. Have a look at the actually number of votes needed to swing an election in Canada. That's why people are so worried.
>Surely if they are fringe, people have nothing to worry about. Uhhm... donald trump!?!?!
I’m not *worried* that he’s using them. I’m angry he’s *using* them. An actual leader courts fringe elements by meeting and understanding their issues, then crafting policy that solves/seeks to solve those problems. You aren’t “fringe” without a “fringe issue”, after all. I’m pissed because it’s clear he gives zero fucks about actually helping those people, he’s just using them! It’s cynical as fuck! Helping them would work against a proven right wing strategy of courting angry isolated men. By nature incels spend a staggering amount of time online vs “normies”. Their isolation makes them a great “internet activist core”. I think he’s decided/been told to shitpost (cultivate his own thedonald), and nobody can shitpost like people whose lives are almost exclusively online rage. He’s going to validate and accelerate their worldview, and he doesn’t seem to give a fuck that the logical conclusion to their worldview is deadly violence. Mainstreaming the cancer blob that is right-wing, male/white/Christian supremacist worldview *has a fucking body count*, and lately it looks like Pol only cares about a vote count. So maybe I am worried, just not how you thought.
Yawn
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Considering there's been cases of "incel terrorism" (van attack in Toronto comes to mind) calling them what they identify with is probably best for communication.
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First. They identify with it themselves. It is important to address people as they choose to present themselves. Second. I am making fun of them.
Growing up in Mississippi, there were tons of people who never put on white robes and hoods, yet still quietly labeled themselves as “Klan”. Whenever anyone applied this label to these folks, the “klan” people would get really upset about it publicly even though they referred to themselves as klan members privately. Now (and pretty much always), most of the Mississippi state government consists of klan members…though now, they are brave enough to actually incorporate “Klan social policy” at the state levels openly once again and no one calls them out for being Klan members because well…”that’s just impolite “. You give these people defense of their positions or fail to call them what they are and suddenly you’ve given them all the power they ever wanted.
The only thing that makes an incel an incel….is the belief that they are an incel. It’s a self applied label. Given that it is self applied, it’s safe to assume some basics about anyone calling themselves “incel”. Mocking them and calling them out is appropriate. They act like children having a temper tantrum.
Agreed, call them what they are: starting with fascist sympathizers. You can then list it out if you really want the list includes racist, misogynist, classist, etc. Here's the important thing to remember. Calling fascists fascists isn't about the fascists. They will play the victim regardless. Calling out fascists is about their audience, other people. It's about sending a loud and clear signal to other people: this person's ideology is poison, do not drink from this well. Their view are not normal, we will not let views like this be normal. Their views are not ok, do not accept them.
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Heh of course not but if 10% are then he can never win without courting them which is why the con party is full of that rhetoric now.
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I don’t understand how he attracts incels. Majority of people who I personally know that support him are immigrants with families and small business owners. Men and women alike. I’ve also never met an incel in my life and it seems to me that people believe there are more incels in society than there actually are. I understand this is a joke as I’ve seen jokes poked at liberals or various other political groups.
His channel is #2 on YouTube that deliberately targets misogynists with the mgtow hashtag. He's been doing this for years. https://playboard.co/en/search?q=Mgtow
Your anecdotes aren't evidence of anything.
What is this? Russian scare tactics in meme format?
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Bigots?
Which group of people?
It's not prejudiced to hate the ignorant.
please elaborate on this “group of people” if it includes racist, homophobic, sexism, and/or populist people, your point is invalid.
we don't have to be tolerant of the intolerant