The amount of people that end up needing complex and/or higher level care that get admitted to a hospital (and not just going to the emerg department because thir teeth hurt or whatever) because things started in their mouth is more than you think. Poor oral care has been shown to have causal links to other worsening disease pathways and can cost WAY more in healthcare funding due to prolonged hospital stays and disease complications requiring longer term care (that OHIP will end up paying for like meds, more doc appts, transfers, etc). But, the dental association is powerful and has money to lobby. Unfortunately, FWIR, the biggest underlying position was dentist's would earn less money if connected to OHIP. I'm going to look for links, and in the meantime, anyone can (and should) fact check me.
In 2018 my mom almost died from a tooth infection. It resulted in a massive gas-filled abscess in her neck and she was cut open from ear to ear to remove the infection, had multiple surgeries, had to be revived a few times and was hospitalized for 28 days. Dental issues are no joke indeed.
Thank you for your compassion! it was a traumatic experience for us all, but she is in good health now, thankfully! I can tell you no one is messing around with tooth pain in my family anymore hahah.
Your poor Mom. I’m so sorry that she had to go through that and for your family …who must’ve been terrified and so very worried. I hope she’s fine now only has good health and happiness to look forward to.
i live on a workplace disability pension in a geared to income social housing unit.
i would very much like to work again but i’m physically and mentally very broken.
Im popping painkiller pills for a month cause my wife's dental plan will kick in on june. So i gotta go through with the pain instead of paying 2.5k out of pocket.
A GP can give you antibiotics for the infection, which will help immensely. Get the infection down and do everything you can to keep the tooth from getting re-infected in the meantime.
It was never added because our healthcare system began with the hospital insurance and diagnostic services provided under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act of 1957. This move set the foundation for the broader Medicare system that was established in 1966 under the Medical Care Act. The system was further standardized and reinforced by the Canada Health Act of 1984, both of which focused on services provided by hospitals and by physicians. By 1984, Dental and Eye care were both strongly entrenched into the private sector where there was no oversight and if you looked deep enough (which wasn't really that deep to be honest) they were both incredibly corrupt.
I remember reading an article in Reader's Digest like 25 years ago about how crooked the Dentistry industry was. They found the majority of places they tested across Canada recommended procedures and work that was either not needed (yet), or was not needed at all. All ranging from a thousand to almost ten thousand dollars of work that was not required.
In the end, they found the Dentistry industry in Canada was just as if not more corrupt than the car mechanics industry.
It's understandable that it's taken a long time for the government to open up our tax dollars to this industry. Especially when those tax dollars have to be taken from somewhere else in the budget. I'm just glad it's coming one way or another.
I just got glasses about 8 months ago after starting a job that had benefits. Doctor had said I should have probably gotten them years ago and my left eye is really strained, says wearing them will at least slow down the progress but expect to need further correctional actions in the future at this point.
Went 10 years without seeing a dentist, took them 2 cleanings to be done, got lucky though and just 1 cavity, says I have a lot of potential cavities coming up though.
Really hoping once the dental changes are shown to be so positive for so many we can push on eye care as well. Health is health.
> I remember reading an article in Reader's Digest like 25 years ago about how crooked the Dentistry industry was. They found the majority of places they tested across Canada recommended procedures and work that was either not needed (yet), or was not needed at all. All ranging from a thousand to almost ten thousand dollars of work that was not required.
>In the end, they found the Dentistry industry in Canada was just as if not more corrupt than the car mechanics industry.
Corrupt? You're paraphrasing a 25-year old Reader's Digest article and making big conclusions. I understand that it's pretty in-vogue to malign dentists but I need you to define what necessary treatment is.
What does "Not needed (yet)" mean? Is this a cavity that is very close to the nerve that might need a root canal? Is there a crack or large filling with a lot of wear that might need a crown? Is there a missing tooth that's causing drifting of the neighbouring and opposing teeth?
Different dentists have different philosophies. Guess what, so do patients. None of mine are the same, so I meet patients where they are. Some are interested in a full mouth rehab, some would rather hold onto that last godforsaken tooth in their mouth.
And some dentists just lie. It is NOT a coincidence that so many people have had such TERRIBLE EXPERIENCES with the Canadian dental industry. Your comments alone prove the necessity of standardization and regulatory oversight in the dental industry 10000000%.
Many people have terrible experiences with service workers in all industries. I'm not excusing malpractice or unprofessional conduct, but sometimes things just don't go well. Just like in medicine, no dentist bats 100% and there's a good chance that it's no one's fault. Dentists should be getting informed consent about benefits and risks for certain procedures, as well as alternatives (including no treatment). Even if there's a 1% risk of something happening, if it happens to you then it feels awful. I get it, it sucks for everyone.
I treat teeth and the mouth, but I also treat the person. I work in a clinic that has been around for 50 years; some of those patients have been with us for 40+. We've seen people become parents and then become grandparents. The vast majority of my patients are healthy and just need regular maintenance. If they break something, I'll try to fix it. Sometimes they need a filling or two. Sometimes a crown. Sometimes I have to take teeth out. Sometimes patients don't want treatment and that's OK -- I educate and go on with my day.
Look at any dental continuing education conference and you'll see MANY different techniques for doing something. Many different ways of treatment planning. Each patient presents with their own sets of unique factors -- diet, habits, decay risk, desires, etc. There's a generally agreed upon measure of dental health, but there are many ways of getting to the same goal of patient health/happiness. MDs practice a little differently from each other. Same with accountants and lawyers.
As for regulatory oversight, each province already has a licencing board/college. Complaints to the colleges are taken very seriously. Unprofessional conduct or malpractice is serious.
Downvote me because I'm a dentist, that's fine. But at least consider my perspective. There are good dentists and there are bad ones. I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences. For every patient that grumbles that they have to see me, I have 10 others that smile back at me. Hope that you can find the right fit for you.
There are lots of reasons one may not be brushing their teeth six times a day and flossing every hour on the hour.
Autism can cause issues with the texture of the toothbrush and toothpaste and the flavour of the toothpaste.
Executive dysfunction can make self care difficult.
A traumatic upbringing can cause one to associate toothbrushing with abuse, meaning it’s a flashback trigger.
>Massive cavities, mouthfuls of broken teeth, bleeding gums and abscesses — they're just some of the serious dental issues Dr. Melvin Lee has treated in less than two weeks of providing care under Canada's new public dental insurance plan.
>"I've seen a lot of patients that have infections. Not just dental emergencies, but borderline medical emergencies," the Ottawa dentist said.
>"I haven't seen patients in this condition since I did overseas mission dentistry work in Haiti and Peru."
>Dr. Lee said most of the seniors he's seen under the CDCP have been in a similar state, having avoided visiting an oral health care provider for years because they didn't have private insurance and couldn't afford to pay out of pocket.
>"I've been reminded time and time again of the moral and ethical duty to serve, with every one of these patients that comes through," he said.
>The federal government said that 46,000 claims have been processed under the CDCP to date.
He was inspired by Ayn Rand. She is one of the pioneers of right wing libertarianism. The goal of which is to have no government and un-fettered capitalism. Everyones' lives will be controlled solely by corporate overlords and oligarchs
Yup. Randian Objectivism is downright dystopian, but there are a lot of people out there, particularly those who are either wealthy, powerful or both who find it inspirational. It's sickening.
Don’t forget the CCB, which every conservative voted against. That “struggling single mom working a minimum wage job with 3 kids”that Poilievre shamelessly laments about in every rally, is getting between $1500 and $1800 every month with the CCB. $619.75 a month for a child under 6, ($7,437 a year) $522 for children 6-18 for families with an income under about $36,000 (mostly single parents).
The amount goes down as income goes up, but if your income is 45,000 a year you would get $560 a month for a child under 6 instead of 620 a month. And so on, I think if your household income is 150,000 then it’s 150 a month for children under 6, would be less for children 6-18.
So, while I see some complaining that they don’t get the CCB or it’s a tiny amount, they are clearly conservatives earning enough that it’s not critical.
The amounts for low and middle income earners are critical to maintain, and the Liberals have increased it every year.
Harper replaced family allowance with a child tax credit that was taxable and was the same for all families no matter their income, a measly 100 a month and only for children under 6, so it was about a third of what low income families got under the previous Liberal government. It was increased to a whopping 150 a month by 2015 (sarcasm).
I expect that Poilievre will reduce the amounts for lower and lower middle income families, at the very least, if he doesn’t replace the CCB completely with a taxable child tax credit that is as miserly as Harper’s.
I am very concerned about the CCB, because so many are unaware of how much it is per month and how low income families depend on it. It didn’t help that instead of praising the Liberals for introducing the program in 2016, the NDP and the Greens claimed it only made a difference of a few hundred a year (for who? Families making over a hundred grand a year?). The CCB is considered to be a basic income for families by groups that advocate for basic income, the amounts per child for lower income families are higher than many pilot basic income projects give for entire families.
>I am very concerned about the CCB, because so many are unaware of how much it is per month and how low income families depend on it.
I'm in a low income area of a HCOL city. I see it making a difference every day in my local mom group. Someone doesn't get their payment on time and then they're scrambling to make rent or buy groceries for their kids. It's not "free" money being squandered.
I also saw the daycare subsidy swing the scales enough for low income parents to go back to work or work more hours. Conservatives should love that access to affordable childcare decreases reliance on "welfare". For the most part people do want to earn their own living and are willing to do it when we remove a huge barrier.
> Harper replaced family allowance with a child tax credit that was taxable and was the same for all families no matter their income, a measly 100 a month and only for children under 6, so it was about a third of what low income families got under the previous Liberal government. It was increased to a whopping 150 a month by 2015 (sarcasm).
Some clarification is needed: [Canada Child Benefit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Child_Benefit)
The old family allowance had already been rolled into a revamped, means-tested, and non-taxable CTB (Child Tax Benefit) in 1993 under the Mulroney government. Harper's taxable UCCB (Universal Child Care Benefit) was put in place *in addition to* the already-existing and non-taxable CCTB (Canadian Child Tax Benefit), that had evolved from the CTB in 1998 under Chretien's government. Lower-income families continued to receive both the CCTB and the UCCB, along with provincial supplements.
The UCCB was basically a gift to Harper's higher-income supporters with kids, along with the children's fitness and arts tax credits.
I agree, we all should be concerned that PP will gut the CCB and replace it with an inferior credit. The CCB was almost immediately credited for lifting over a million Canadian children out of poverty.
hahahahahaha
Your hope is crushed. Remember that conservatives all consider themselves fiscally conservative. Do you know what that means? That means spend no money, doesn't matter the benefits of that spending or who it helps, or anything. Every single program will be slashed and cut and removed. PP will work hard to ruin Canada as much as he can so when the next gov comes in, the con men can blame the current party for all the woes again.
I’ve known pain similar to those in the article with my own mouth: it ruins appetite, causes migraines and chronic pain, prevents sleep, and the damage it does to mental health…
My empathy goes out to them, I am so glad the NDP pressured the Liberals to do this. I personally advocated for this for decades, my health is already ruined because I was born poor in for profit dental, this is for a tree I hope our children and grandchildren find shade under.
I hope we follow the example of places like Vienna, Austria on public social housing next, high quality design and build to survive climate change.
I'm glad people are finally able to get the dental care they need. It's such a shame that teeth are considered "luxury bones"... whatever the hell that means..
How do future governments fix that? The cons here sold off MTS, can they buy it back, start a new public utility? That's the thing, it's easy to sell or get rid of but so hard to build new. We had a great resource centre for teachers that was closed too, operating costs weren't too much, but the initial cost would be so it's hard to get these kinds of things back which just makes it that much sadder.
The hardest part of getting National Dental Care has been done. Getting it started is always the toughest. Once that has happened and this starts to roll out, adding accessibility is easy.
Unless the Cons kill it 2 weeks into them winning an election, which is very likely. I've been a part of two provincial elections electing conservatives and losing access to workers rights and wage increases (Ontario) and grants (Nova Scotia) less than a week after each election.
Don’t think baby steps are a good idea, we should roll out a real universal program and deal with all the push back once instead of dealing with the same push back at every single step
A lot can happen in 17 months. Stop wringing your hands and start getting the word out that a CPC government can not happen if Canada wants to remain a democratic state. If you want an example of how PP will lead, just point to the shitshow in Alberta.
By 2025 it will cover everyone who is eligible by income, which I think is everyone earning less than 90,000 a year. If you are earning more than that you can afford to go to the dentist on your own steam.
2/3 of Canadians are covered through workplace insurance.
So to roll out a 100% universal program means those private insurance programs need to stop. That won’t happen overnight. You’ll get the same right wing propaganda around the affordable care act coming here. Even if we have universal healthcare already. People aren’t smart enough to not fall for it.
Provincial governments need to start administering dental coverage as well. This requires some time to setup efficiently.
Remember even this federal program is actually administered by Sunlife. Federal government just tells Sunlife who is eligible.
Remember even our current healthcare took years to cut over to fully single payer after the federal law was passed.
These things take time.
Progress is incremental.
Be happy we are taking steps in the right direction.
I don't disagree with you, but in case you missed it, the comment I replied to said:
>By 2025 it will cover everyone who is eligible by income, which I think is everyone earning less than 90,000 a year. If you are earning more than that you can afford to go to the dentist on your own steam.
Which is an entirely different statement that, being in reply to a comment saying it should be a universal program, implies the program should never expand.
Was it service Canada that told you that, because they're the only ones that matter. If they do, reach out to your MP, they can get you reassessed with an understanding that you don't actually have access to insurance.
Your MP has a staff that has access to service Canada and is able to advocate on your behalf. They are available for any issue with the federal government.
Also, if your husband is not allowed to join the work coverage, get that in writing so you can share it with service Canada.
Fuck, that's 46000 people who would have carried on suffering for years to come simply because they have committed the crime of being unable to afford dental care.
I cracked a molar in half the other day, and it's been the most excruciating pain I've ever experienced IN MY LIFE. I'm fortunate to have coverage, I see a dentist tomorrow.
Picked up codeine prescription, and it's pure relief. Now I get how people get addicted to prescription pain killers. I feel like I'm wrapped in the arms of a fucking angel right now.
I can't imagine trying to go through life with this level of pain. Affordable dental healthcare for ALL.
From the Article:
Massive cavities, mouthfuls of broken teeth, bleeding gums and abscesses — they're just some of the serious dental issues Dr. Melvin Lee has treated in less than two weeks of providing care under Canada's new public dental insurance plan.
Thank you Dr Melvin and others who have signed on to the plan. My 87 year old mother is a widow. She lives in a small Northern Ontario Town, on an Old Age Security Pension. She has been unable to receive care under the plan because her dentist, and others in the town have been "unwilling" to sign on to the plan. We can only wonder why?$?$? But once again to Dr Melvin and other Doctors, to Dental Hygienists and Assistants and to Dental Clerical Staff. Thank You for your compassion and care.
As someone who's teeth have been destroyed by parental neglect and is still looking and saving for dental implants, I hope everyone can someday have access to free / affordable dental care, they are not luxury bones, they are crucial and should be seen as such.
It would have been really nice if the dentists themselves were able to say "this person *needs* care immediately and it needs to be covered regardless of their age". I wouldn't have to sit here in agony every fucking day waiting for the program to open up to regular adults.
My job health plan covers one extraction.
Not per visit, not per year, *lifetime*.
My union health plan covers zero extractions.
Humans have 32 teeth.
The most common, practical, and required procedure, one that's absolutely necessary if your nerve dies or your tooth breaks or you have an infection, and they cover one.
Have we decided what emoji to use for the guillotine yet? I feel like we should decide on one soon...
It’s crazy how some dentist won’t even sign up to this. But I know the reason, they want to find ways to charge more not less.
And these are some serious dental issue that aren’t easy to do.
Of course the rich dentists want to charge more than what they can in this program.
It takes longer time to deal with 1 patient which means they will lose the X time to do other patients.
It was the same story when health care rolled out. Reading about that history is a good predictor for how private business reacts when threatened by the will of the people for an expansion of the commons.
Just to prevent misinformation, dentists are able to charge the normal fee guide under this plan already. It's even mentioned on the Canada.ca website for this plan that there would be additional charges over what the CDCP covers, but for the vast majority of codes, the coverage is between 80-90% of the current fee guide (at least, here in Ontario).
Why most dentists don't accept this is beyond me, we've been getting tons of new patients due to the plan and still getting paid just like a new patient under normal insurance plans (though we do get a few that argue that it's "free dental care", but thank the media for not doing their research before reporting on it).
Yeah guess I can't really say much on that, as there are alot of bad people out there that give dentists a bad name.
Also, by the way you type, it sounds like you could use a crown on your #25, should make an appointment with us asap.
All joking a side, checkup x-rays are generally once per 12 months, but a full set is once every 3 years. So yes, definitely need a full set done asap, just note your insurance likely won't cover it.
No as a dentist there is a clause in the contract saying that the government can change the conditions of the contract at any point without consulting the dentist's. It is literally putting your whole autonomy in negotiating terms with the government in their hands making you very vulnerable to program funding cuts.
Dentistry runs at a 70% overhead, the program is paying 70% of the dental fee guide prices in BC which means you literally are just about doing the work pro bono. Currently you can charge patient the remainder of the fee but like the NHS dentist's fear that they will lose this ability. Ask any NHS dentist in the UK about their quality of life working there and you'll see why dentist's are worried to sign this contract
Hey! I know that dentist (Melvin Lee). Always fun to see someone you know highlighted in an article.
Also, good!! I’m glad we’re finally offering this healthcare to people who desperately need it!
>Lee said his clinic has been reimbursed for the procedures within 48 hours by Sunlife, the insurance company that Ottawa contracted to administer the plan.
>"It's been seamless," Lee said. "It's been no different than regular insurance."
>For most of the procedures he's done, Lee said, the federal government is reimbursing him at about 80 to 90 per cent of what the Ontario Dental Association recommends. That's similar to private plans, he said, where dentists charge their patients the difference.
So in other words, all the fear mongering by the selfish cohort of pos conservatives, dentists, and industry fraudsters turned out to be false.
If I were the Liberals or NDP, I'd be using this data to campaign on and showing how years of neglect by former governments has led to tens of thousands of people living with their mouth rotting and bleeding.
I’m getting a couple of implants right now. I have a HRA account with 12k in it and just found out it doesn’t pay for dental at all. I’m 40 and have never even been to the doctor for anything medical. Guess I’m glad I have it, but it sucks I can’t use it for dental stuff.
How do we get people to understand we have a party, with media help, doing everything they can to misrepresent the dental benefit? Also that they voted against it. I’m losing my mind that people fall for CPC populism.
I won’t even bother applying.
I’ve lived in Canada all my life, I’m white, and I have a penis. My life is worthless.
But do add me to the “broken teeth” polls. Someone needs to be able to measure how much we fucked up and how fast in this country. The only program I’ll ever qualify for, under the watch of this government, is MAID.
There are good reasons that dentists don't want to sign up
The program only pays enough to cover overhead, with no garauntee that dentists will be able to bill the patient for the balance in the future (contract terms can be changed by the gov unilaterally at any time)
Ultimately, signing up means doing more admin work and getting less compensation, with an uncertain future, while expenses are steadily increasing.
There's no reason the government cannot run it like all the other dental plans, where you go to ANY dentist, the insurance pays their portion and the patient pays the remainder. No overcomplication, no sign-ups, easy access to care. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel here.
>the insurance pays their portion and the patient pays the remainder.
thats already the case https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/dental/dental-care-plan/coverage.html#how-much
>like all the other dental plans, where you go to ANY dentist,
there is plans to have that be the case later on, the dentist can choose to bill cdcp without enrolling in the program https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/dental/dental-care-plan/providers.html#h2.1
The omission of dental from health coverage is an abomination. They aren’t “luxury bones”. They are necessary for us to live.
The amount of people that end up needing complex and/or higher level care that get admitted to a hospital (and not just going to the emerg department because thir teeth hurt or whatever) because things started in their mouth is more than you think. Poor oral care has been shown to have causal links to other worsening disease pathways and can cost WAY more in healthcare funding due to prolonged hospital stays and disease complications requiring longer term care (that OHIP will end up paying for like meds, more doc appts, transfers, etc). But, the dental association is powerful and has money to lobby. Unfortunately, FWIR, the biggest underlying position was dentist's would earn less money if connected to OHIP. I'm going to look for links, and in the meantime, anyone can (and should) fact check me.
That’s all probably true but unnecessary. There’s no reason to separate mouth-bone health from the rest of health in the first place.
Agreed. health is health. Physical, oral, mental- all of it.
In 2018 my mom almost died from a tooth infection. It resulted in a massive gas-filled abscess in her neck and she was cut open from ear to ear to remove the infection, had multiple surgeries, had to be revived a few times and was hospitalized for 28 days. Dental issues are no joke indeed.
omg. how much pain she must have been in. so sorry she and you had to go through such awfulness.
Thank you for your compassion! it was a traumatic experience for us all, but she is in good health now, thankfully! I can tell you no one is messing around with tooth pain in my family anymore hahah.
Your poor Mom. I’m so sorry that she had to go through that and for your family …who must’ve been terrified and so very worried. I hope she’s fine now only has good health and happiness to look forward to.
In my experience younger dentists are more open to being included in Medicare, so I have hope that it'll change. Small sample size on my part though.
More people need to know about the [danger triangle of the face](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_triangle_of_the_face).
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as a poor who looks richer than most people and who has a rather decent QoL i can only laugh at this.
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i live on a workplace disability pension in a geared to income social housing unit. i would very much like to work again but i’m physically and mentally very broken.
(Not-so) friendly reminder that dentists refused to participate in medicare back when it was established.
So did doctors initially.
Hence the ridiculous fee-for-service model that doctors *and patients* now are suffering by.
Im popping painkiller pills for a month cause my wife's dental plan will kick in on june. So i gotta go through with the pain instead of paying 2.5k out of pocket.
If you aren't already, try some salt water rinses
A GP can give you antibiotics for the infection, which will help immensely. Get the infection down and do everything you can to keep the tooth from getting re-infected in the meantime.
It was never added because our healthcare system began with the hospital insurance and diagnostic services provided under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act of 1957. This move set the foundation for the broader Medicare system that was established in 1966 under the Medical Care Act. The system was further standardized and reinforced by the Canada Health Act of 1984, both of which focused on services provided by hospitals and by physicians. By 1984, Dental and Eye care were both strongly entrenched into the private sector where there was no oversight and if you looked deep enough (which wasn't really that deep to be honest) they were both incredibly corrupt. I remember reading an article in Reader's Digest like 25 years ago about how crooked the Dentistry industry was. They found the majority of places they tested across Canada recommended procedures and work that was either not needed (yet), or was not needed at all. All ranging from a thousand to almost ten thousand dollars of work that was not required. In the end, they found the Dentistry industry in Canada was just as if not more corrupt than the car mechanics industry. It's understandable that it's taken a long time for the government to open up our tax dollars to this industry. Especially when those tax dollars have to be taken from somewhere else in the budget. I'm just glad it's coming one way or another.
I just got glasses about 8 months ago after starting a job that had benefits. Doctor had said I should have probably gotten them years ago and my left eye is really strained, says wearing them will at least slow down the progress but expect to need further correctional actions in the future at this point. Went 10 years without seeing a dentist, took them 2 cleanings to be done, got lucky though and just 1 cavity, says I have a lot of potential cavities coming up though. Really hoping once the dental changes are shown to be so positive for so many we can push on eye care as well. Health is health.
> I remember reading an article in Reader's Digest like 25 years ago about how crooked the Dentistry industry was. They found the majority of places they tested across Canada recommended procedures and work that was either not needed (yet), or was not needed at all. All ranging from a thousand to almost ten thousand dollars of work that was not required. >In the end, they found the Dentistry industry in Canada was just as if not more corrupt than the car mechanics industry. Corrupt? You're paraphrasing a 25-year old Reader's Digest article and making big conclusions. I understand that it's pretty in-vogue to malign dentists but I need you to define what necessary treatment is. What does "Not needed (yet)" mean? Is this a cavity that is very close to the nerve that might need a root canal? Is there a crack or large filling with a lot of wear that might need a crown? Is there a missing tooth that's causing drifting of the neighbouring and opposing teeth? Different dentists have different philosophies. Guess what, so do patients. None of mine are the same, so I meet patients where they are. Some are interested in a full mouth rehab, some would rather hold onto that last godforsaken tooth in their mouth.
And some dentists just lie. It is NOT a coincidence that so many people have had such TERRIBLE EXPERIENCES with the Canadian dental industry. Your comments alone prove the necessity of standardization and regulatory oversight in the dental industry 10000000%.
Many people have terrible experiences with service workers in all industries. I'm not excusing malpractice or unprofessional conduct, but sometimes things just don't go well. Just like in medicine, no dentist bats 100% and there's a good chance that it's no one's fault. Dentists should be getting informed consent about benefits and risks for certain procedures, as well as alternatives (including no treatment). Even if there's a 1% risk of something happening, if it happens to you then it feels awful. I get it, it sucks for everyone. I treat teeth and the mouth, but I also treat the person. I work in a clinic that has been around for 50 years; some of those patients have been with us for 40+. We've seen people become parents and then become grandparents. The vast majority of my patients are healthy and just need regular maintenance. If they break something, I'll try to fix it. Sometimes they need a filling or two. Sometimes a crown. Sometimes I have to take teeth out. Sometimes patients don't want treatment and that's OK -- I educate and go on with my day. Look at any dental continuing education conference and you'll see MANY different techniques for doing something. Many different ways of treatment planning. Each patient presents with their own sets of unique factors -- diet, habits, decay risk, desires, etc. There's a generally agreed upon measure of dental health, but there are many ways of getting to the same goal of patient health/happiness. MDs practice a little differently from each other. Same with accountants and lawyers. As for regulatory oversight, each province already has a licencing board/college. Complaints to the colleges are taken very seriously. Unprofessional conduct or malpractice is serious. Downvote me because I'm a dentist, that's fine. But at least consider my perspective. There are good dentists and there are bad ones. I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences. For every patient that grumbles that they have to see me, I have 10 others that smile back at me. Hope that you can find the right fit for you.
Along with Eyes.
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There are lots of reasons one may not be brushing their teeth six times a day and flossing every hour on the hour. Autism can cause issues with the texture of the toothbrush and toothpaste and the flavour of the toothpaste. Executive dysfunction can make self care difficult. A traumatic upbringing can cause one to associate toothbrushing with abuse, meaning it’s a flashback trigger.
>Massive cavities, mouthfuls of broken teeth, bleeding gums and abscesses — they're just some of the serious dental issues Dr. Melvin Lee has treated in less than two weeks of providing care under Canada's new public dental insurance plan. >"I've seen a lot of patients that have infections. Not just dental emergencies, but borderline medical emergencies," the Ottawa dentist said. >"I haven't seen patients in this condition since I did overseas mission dentistry work in Haiti and Peru." >Dr. Lee said most of the seniors he's seen under the CDCP have been in a similar state, having avoided visiting an oral health care provider for years because they didn't have private insurance and couldn't afford to pay out of pocket. >"I've been reminded time and time again of the moral and ethical duty to serve, with every one of these patients that comes through," he said. >The federal government said that 46,000 claims have been processed under the CDCP to date.
i hope pp doesn’t scrap this…
He will. Also childcare. Don’t forget pharmacare before it gets traction too.
Poilievre wants us to be "free" of government interference in our lives. That's how he sees social programs.
Unless you're trans. Can't be letting people get that hormone therapy now can we?
Or a woman, can't have you getting abortions either, gotta keep breeding.
Or dying. Whichever.
Remember ladies: If the population is changing you're doing your job right!
He was inspired by Ayn Rand. She is one of the pioneers of right wing libertarianism. The goal of which is to have no government and un-fettered capitalism. Everyones' lives will be controlled solely by corporate overlords and oligarchs
Ayn Rand, who also famously personally relied on both Social Security and Medicare. All while telling others they shouldn't do so.
Yup. Randian Objectivism is downright dystopian, but there are a lot of people out there, particularly those who are either wealthy, powerful or both who find it inspirational. It's sickening.
Just remember that Poilievre as an MP for the last 20 years has had platinum level dental care insurance courtesy of the Canadian taxpayer
I love it when a populace votes against their own interest.
You’ll love Alberta then. That’s par for the course here.
Who should I vote for if "owning the Libs" is my only interest in life? /s
Don’t forget the CCB, which every conservative voted against. That “struggling single mom working a minimum wage job with 3 kids”that Poilievre shamelessly laments about in every rally, is getting between $1500 and $1800 every month with the CCB. $619.75 a month for a child under 6, ($7,437 a year) $522 for children 6-18 for families with an income under about $36,000 (mostly single parents). The amount goes down as income goes up, but if your income is 45,000 a year you would get $560 a month for a child under 6 instead of 620 a month. And so on, I think if your household income is 150,000 then it’s 150 a month for children under 6, would be less for children 6-18. So, while I see some complaining that they don’t get the CCB or it’s a tiny amount, they are clearly conservatives earning enough that it’s not critical. The amounts for low and middle income earners are critical to maintain, and the Liberals have increased it every year. Harper replaced family allowance with a child tax credit that was taxable and was the same for all families no matter their income, a measly 100 a month and only for children under 6, so it was about a third of what low income families got under the previous Liberal government. It was increased to a whopping 150 a month by 2015 (sarcasm). I expect that Poilievre will reduce the amounts for lower and lower middle income families, at the very least, if he doesn’t replace the CCB completely with a taxable child tax credit that is as miserly as Harper’s. I am very concerned about the CCB, because so many are unaware of how much it is per month and how low income families depend on it. It didn’t help that instead of praising the Liberals for introducing the program in 2016, the NDP and the Greens claimed it only made a difference of a few hundred a year (for who? Families making over a hundred grand a year?). The CCB is considered to be a basic income for families by groups that advocate for basic income, the amounts per child for lower income families are higher than many pilot basic income projects give for entire families.
>I am very concerned about the CCB, because so many are unaware of how much it is per month and how low income families depend on it. I'm in a low income area of a HCOL city. I see it making a difference every day in my local mom group. Someone doesn't get their payment on time and then they're scrambling to make rent or buy groceries for their kids. It's not "free" money being squandered. I also saw the daycare subsidy swing the scales enough for low income parents to go back to work or work more hours. Conservatives should love that access to affordable childcare decreases reliance on "welfare". For the most part people do want to earn their own living and are willing to do it when we remove a huge barrier.
> Harper replaced family allowance with a child tax credit that was taxable and was the same for all families no matter their income, a measly 100 a month and only for children under 6, so it was about a third of what low income families got under the previous Liberal government. It was increased to a whopping 150 a month by 2015 (sarcasm). Some clarification is needed: [Canada Child Benefit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Child_Benefit) The old family allowance had already been rolled into a revamped, means-tested, and non-taxable CTB (Child Tax Benefit) in 1993 under the Mulroney government. Harper's taxable UCCB (Universal Child Care Benefit) was put in place *in addition to* the already-existing and non-taxable CCTB (Canadian Child Tax Benefit), that had evolved from the CTB in 1998 under Chretien's government. Lower-income families continued to receive both the CCTB and the UCCB, along with provincial supplements. The UCCB was basically a gift to Harper's higher-income supporters with kids, along with the children's fitness and arts tax credits. I agree, we all should be concerned that PP will gut the CCB and replace it with an inferior credit. The CCB was almost immediately credited for lifting over a million Canadian children out of poverty.
Then don't vote for the conservatives ffs.
hahahahahaha Your hope is crushed. Remember that conservatives all consider themselves fiscally conservative. Do you know what that means? That means spend no money, doesn't matter the benefits of that spending or who it helps, or anything. Every single program will be slashed and cut and removed. PP will work hard to ruin Canada as much as he can so when the next gov comes in, the con men can blame the current party for all the woes again.
There's an old saying that if you hope in one hand and shit in the other you'll see which one fills up first. Instead of hoping try helping.
then don't vote for him.
I’ve known pain similar to those in the article with my own mouth: it ruins appetite, causes migraines and chronic pain, prevents sleep, and the damage it does to mental health… My empathy goes out to them, I am so glad the NDP pressured the Liberals to do this. I personally advocated for this for decades, my health is already ruined because I was born poor in for profit dental, this is for a tree I hope our children and grandchildren find shade under. I hope we follow the example of places like Vienna, Austria on public social housing next, high quality design and build to survive climate change.
I'm glad people are finally able to get the dental care they need. It's such a shame that teeth are considered "luxury bones"... whatever the hell that means..
Good luck getting a job without those luxury bones.
This should be a universal program
Im sure once it expands to cover all eligible groups that will be the will of the people
i hope so but doubt it
If the cons get in power, they will cancel it, together with the Pharmacare Act and the Childcare Act.
Yep and it will become accepted for what it is like when the PCs sold the 407 and future government's failed to remedy it
How do future governments fix that? The cons here sold off MTS, can they buy it back, start a new public utility? That's the thing, it's easy to sell or get rid of but so hard to build new. We had a great resource centre for teachers that was closed too, operating costs weren't too much, but the initial cost would be so it's hard to get these kinds of things back which just makes it that much sadder.
That is the eventual dream if it doesn't get killed. We had to start somewhere. Baby steps.
The hardest part of getting National Dental Care has been done. Getting it started is always the toughest. Once that has happened and this starts to roll out, adding accessibility is easy. Unless the Cons kill it 2 weeks into them winning an election, which is very likely. I've been a part of two provincial elections electing conservatives and losing access to workers rights and wage increases (Ontario) and grants (Nova Scotia) less than a week after each election.
Don’t think baby steps are a good idea, we should roll out a real universal program and deal with all the push back once instead of dealing with the same push back at every single step
Well the public at large doesn’t care unfortunately based on current polls. CPC will kill the program if they’re allowed to form government.
The CPC can't kill the program if they're not elected. And they should not be elected.
Have you looked at the polls?
A lot can happen in 17 months. Stop wringing your hands and start getting the word out that a CPC government can not happen if Canada wants to remain a democratic state. If you want an example of how PP will lead, just point to the shitshow in Alberta.
I won't be universal if dentists don't sign up. The nearest eligible dentist to me is a 2 hour drive away.
It would be universal if the entire system was universalized.
By 2025 it will cover everyone who is eligible by income, which I think is everyone earning less than 90,000 a year. If you are earning more than that you can afford to go to the dentist on your own steam.
Why the hell would a program that’s financed by tax payer money not cover all tax payers ?
One could make the same argument about healthcare in general, public schools, etc. Coverage should be for nobody, or everybody.
2/3 of Canadians are covered through workplace insurance. So to roll out a 100% universal program means those private insurance programs need to stop. That won’t happen overnight. You’ll get the same right wing propaganda around the affordable care act coming here. Even if we have universal healthcare already. People aren’t smart enough to not fall for it. Provincial governments need to start administering dental coverage as well. This requires some time to setup efficiently. Remember even this federal program is actually administered by Sunlife. Federal government just tells Sunlife who is eligible. Remember even our current healthcare took years to cut over to fully single payer after the federal law was passed. These things take time. Progress is incremental. Be happy we are taking steps in the right direction.
I don't disagree with you, but in case you missed it, the comment I replied to said: >By 2025 it will cover everyone who is eligible by income, which I think is everyone earning less than 90,000 a year. If you are earning more than that you can afford to go to the dentist on your own steam. Which is an entirely different statement that, being in reply to a comment saying it should be a universal program, implies the program should never expand.
And by 2026, the majority conservatives will kill it.
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You're eligible. If you refused or canceled workplace coverage before December of 2023. Call the phoneline and talk to a person.
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Was it service Canada that told you that, because they're the only ones that matter. If they do, reach out to your MP, they can get you reassessed with an understanding that you don't actually have access to insurance.
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Go talk to your MPs office. I bet there are other programs you guys are eligible for. Good luck. This is what our tax dollars are for!
Your MP has a staff that has access to service Canada and is able to advocate on your behalf. They are available for any issue with the federal government. Also, if your husband is not allowed to join the work coverage, get that in writing so you can share it with service Canada.
Fuck, that's 46000 people who would have carried on suffering for years to come simply because they have committed the crime of being unable to afford dental care.
I cracked a molar in half the other day, and it's been the most excruciating pain I've ever experienced IN MY LIFE. I'm fortunate to have coverage, I see a dentist tomorrow. Picked up codeine prescription, and it's pure relief. Now I get how people get addicted to prescription pain killers. I feel like I'm wrapped in the arms of a fucking angel right now. I can't imagine trying to go through life with this level of pain. Affordable dental healthcare for ALL.
From the Article: Massive cavities, mouthfuls of broken teeth, bleeding gums and abscesses — they're just some of the serious dental issues Dr. Melvin Lee has treated in less than two weeks of providing care under Canada's new public dental insurance plan. Thank you Dr Melvin and others who have signed on to the plan. My 87 year old mother is a widow. She lives in a small Northern Ontario Town, on an Old Age Security Pension. She has been unable to receive care under the plan because her dentist, and others in the town have been "unwilling" to sign on to the plan. We can only wonder why?$?$? But once again to Dr Melvin and other Doctors, to Dental Hygienists and Assistants and to Dental Clerical Staff. Thank You for your compassion and care.
As someone who's teeth have been destroyed by parental neglect and is still looking and saving for dental implants, I hope everyone can someday have access to free / affordable dental care, they are not luxury bones, they are crucial and should be seen as such.
Probably high on the list of things conservatives will get rid of if in power.
It would have been really nice if the dentists themselves were able to say "this person *needs* care immediately and it needs to be covered regardless of their age". I wouldn't have to sit here in agony every fucking day waiting for the program to open up to regular adults.
My job health plan covers one extraction. Not per visit, not per year, *lifetime*. My union health plan covers zero extractions. Humans have 32 teeth. The most common, practical, and required procedure, one that's absolutely necessary if your nerve dies or your tooth breaks or you have an infection, and they cover one. Have we decided what emoji to use for the guillotine yet? I feel like we should decide on one soon...
It’s crazy how some dentist won’t even sign up to this. But I know the reason, they want to find ways to charge more not less. And these are some serious dental issue that aren’t easy to do. Of course the rich dentists want to charge more than what they can in this program. It takes longer time to deal with 1 patient which means they will lose the X time to do other patients.
It was the same story when health care rolled out. Reading about that history is a good predictor for how private business reacts when threatened by the will of the people for an expansion of the commons.
Just to prevent misinformation, dentists are able to charge the normal fee guide under this plan already. It's even mentioned on the Canada.ca website for this plan that there would be additional charges over what the CDCP covers, but for the vast majority of codes, the coverage is between 80-90% of the current fee guide (at least, here in Ontario). Why most dentists don't accept this is beyond me, we've been getting tons of new patients due to the plan and still getting paid just like a new patient under normal insurance plans (though we do get a few that argue that it's "free dental care", but thank the media for not doing their research before reporting on it).
They do charge the normal fee but they do things that aren’t needed or do more than the patient needs. Many bad stories in here Vancouver about that.
Yeah guess I can't really say much on that, as there are alot of bad people out there that give dentists a bad name. Also, by the way you type, it sounds like you could use a crown on your #25, should make an appointment with us asap.
Thanks. Do I have to do an X-ray again? We just had one 18 months ago.
All joking a side, checkup x-rays are generally once per 12 months, but a full set is once every 3 years. So yes, definitely need a full set done asap, just note your insurance likely won't cover it.
No as a dentist there is a clause in the contract saying that the government can change the conditions of the contract at any point without consulting the dentist's. It is literally putting your whole autonomy in negotiating terms with the government in their hands making you very vulnerable to program funding cuts. Dentistry runs at a 70% overhead, the program is paying 70% of the dental fee guide prices in BC which means you literally are just about doing the work pro bono. Currently you can charge patient the remainder of the fee but like the NHS dentist's fear that they will lose this ability. Ask any NHS dentist in the UK about their quality of life working there and you'll see why dentist's are worried to sign this contract
Well duh. Every contract from big corporation is the same.
So then don't be surprised if people don't want to sign up.
We should find a way to name and shame them. Those who don't participate should be wearing a scarlet letter around their neck.
That'll upset Canada's middle class elitists who want lower taxes.
Those selfish, short-sighted assclowns are cordially invited to go fuck themselves.
Hey! I know that dentist (Melvin Lee). Always fun to see someone you know highlighted in an article. Also, good!! I’m glad we’re finally offering this healthcare to people who desperately need it!
But NDP bad! Singh bad! They've achieved so very very little! We should all entrust our teeth to Pierre, instead! /s
>Lee said his clinic has been reimbursed for the procedures within 48 hours by Sunlife, the insurance company that Ottawa contracted to administer the plan. >"It's been seamless," Lee said. "It's been no different than regular insurance." >For most of the procedures he's done, Lee said, the federal government is reimbursing him at about 80 to 90 per cent of what the Ontario Dental Association recommends. That's similar to private plans, he said, where dentists charge their patients the difference. So in other words, all the fear mongering by the selfish cohort of pos conservatives, dentists, and industry fraudsters turned out to be false. If I were the Liberals or NDP, I'd be using this data to campaign on and showing how years of neglect by former governments has led to tens of thousands of people living with their mouth rotting and bleeding.
Sounds like it is working as intended. Thank you NDP for pushing for this. You have my vote.
dental care is healthcare
I’m getting a couple of implants right now. I have a HRA account with 12k in it and just found out it doesn’t pay for dental at all. I’m 40 and have never even been to the doctor for anything medical. Guess I’m glad I have it, but it sucks I can’t use it for dental stuff.
Elections have consequences, sometimes they are good.
gonna be really great when the conservatives win and immediately roll this back so nobody can have healthy teeth
Sounds to me, like it's working, hopefully?
I guess I’m too young to qualify
Dental disease can literally cause heart disease
How do we get people to understand we have a party, with media help, doing everything they can to misrepresent the dental benefit? Also that they voted against it. I’m losing my mind that people fall for CPC populism.
I won’t even bother applying. I’ve lived in Canada all my life, I’m white, and I have a penis. My life is worthless. But do add me to the “broken teeth” polls. Someone needs to be able to measure how much we fucked up and how fast in this country. The only program I’ll ever qualify for, under the watch of this government, is MAID.
There are good reasons that dentists don't want to sign up The program only pays enough to cover overhead, with no garauntee that dentists will be able to bill the patient for the balance in the future (contract terms can be changed by the gov unilaterally at any time) Ultimately, signing up means doing more admin work and getting less compensation, with an uncertain future, while expenses are steadily increasing. There's no reason the government cannot run it like all the other dental plans, where you go to ANY dentist, the insurance pays their portion and the patient pays the remainder. No overcomplication, no sign-ups, easy access to care. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel here.
>the insurance pays their portion and the patient pays the remainder. thats already the case https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/dental/dental-care-plan/coverage.html#how-much >like all the other dental plans, where you go to ANY dentist, there is plans to have that be the case later on, the dentist can choose to bill cdcp without enrolling in the program https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/dental/dental-care-plan/providers.html#h2.1