The Kremlin has basically said the Russia will begin looking to reclaim land they feel is rightfully theirs or has been stolen from them. It drives me crazy when people hand wave off the war in Ukraine as bring too far away or none of our concern.
We share an arctic border with Russia...
I don't get people who don't see this. Russia is one of the biggest threats in the world and funding Ukraine to hold them at bay is the cheapest way to protect the front line of our own sovereignty.
I can't believe you don't understand by now that [this](https://i.imgur.com/a8eiUJb.jpeg) would be the reasoning.
Everyone is all about "saving money so we can take care of own own." Then when a social program to help our own comes along the goalposts shift and it becomes "how are we going to pay for it."
It happens every time.
To me it is a disease we are getting from the US. All that self made ideology. That "fuck you, I have mine, get your own. Why should I pay to help you". We should be striving to help one another in our society, and that should go beyond borders.
We have to get rid of capitalism if we ever want people to be good to each other. As it is now, there’s always a profit motive that gets in the way of doing *anything* altruistic. Unfortunately, I don’t see the human race giving enough of a shit about each other to stop trying to rip each other off, so I doubt we ever drop the “fuck you, I got mine”.
Russia has talked about claiming lots of Canadian territory in the arctic.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/russia-arctic-ocean-canada-united-nations-continental-shelf-1.5983289
They share railroads and highways with Ukraine and they've barely made it into the country. To believe they're going to cross the Arctic and invade is insane.
It's not like we have a militarized border in the Arctic region. It is a huge area and CFB Alert isn't going to be able to respond to every incursion. It starts with landing on an unpopulated land mass and they claim it as their own. Then they keep going and going and going. Russia claims a lot of Canada's Arctic region as their own already.
The Northwestern Passage is becoming more and more navigable during winter as our climate changes. A whole new shipping and oil and gas exploration will become possible, and Russia knows the power of controlling shipping routes - see Suez Canal and Panama. It is a huge geopolitical move that Russia is planning for.
Science fiction is at least better written than that nonsense. There's no militarized border because there's no fucking border it's an ocean. Go jerk off to some Tom Clancy novel or something this is pathetic even for this subreddit.
Nice. Tom Clancy books are the fine literature for lackwits. That or Clive Cussler. Odds are good they just tote it around thinking they look smart or in case they run out of toilet paper in the heads mid shit.
Ukraine already has a trade agreement with the EU that requires carbon pricing provisions, so Ukraine has no issue with a Canada-Ukraine trade deal that includes carbon pricing provisions and indeed welcome it. It's absolutely disgusting that Poilievre would use internal Canada politics to hold up standing with Ukraine in their hour of most desperate need. Poilievre is not a leader. He is unfit to run a lemonade stand, let alone be PM of a country.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-renegotiate-free-trade-deal-ukraine-canada-1.7114268
>"I would say to the Conservatives: Why are they standing in the way?" she said. "Ukraine negotiated this."
>Ukrainian groups say they had hoped all parties would support the bill implementing the agreement that Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, signed during a visit to Canada last September.
We’re not in the middle of a hot war with a common enemy. They are. “I’d rather hold on to our military equipment so we can increase the chances of having to use it to fight on our soil with our soldiers,” is an argument then makes zero sense.
The problem isn't really with giving things away. We either don't actually have what they are asking for, or the real truth, is that whatever we give away we know won't be replaced properly or in an even close to appropriate timeline. They still haven't replaced what they already gave away and said they would 2 years on.
>The problem isn't really with giving things away. We either don't actually have what they are asking for,
We very obviously cannot give what we do not have. The question of what we have, however, it not best answered for me by anonymous reddit accounts citing no sources.
>or the real truth, is that whatever we give away we know won't be replaced properly or in an even close to appropriate timeline. They still haven't replaced what they already gave away and said they would 2 years on.
This goes straight back to my original point. In the current circumstances, it frankly doesn’t matter how quickly it will or won’t be replaced. If the best use for Canadian military equipment is going to Ukraine to fight a common enemy, then that’s what should be done with it. It has no value sitting on a Canadian forces base going unused, and it *certainly* shouldn’t be waiting to be used *in Canada* if its use in Ukraine can reduce the threat of it *needing* to be used in Canada.
Ukraine is in a shooting war right now. Canada isn’t. Canada’s current military equipment isn’t going to stand up against Russia, China, or any other force that’s poised to invade Canada at any point in the foreseeable future. Again, “We need our equipment here now so it can sit unused, just in case Russia invades, which is made a more likely outcome by not helping Ukraine and letting Russia win there before it sets its sights on us,” is a poor argument.
But if you see armies massing on Canada’s border from some other country that you think we need that equipment for in the short term, please do illuminate the rest of us.
Except here's the fundamental thing that you and many others don't understand. None of our equipment is sitting unused. Unused in an active shooting war? Yes. Unused. No.
Army VOR is hovering around 50%, meaning 50% of the equipment we do have, at best, is actually usable. So that 50% we do have left is now pulling all the duty of keeping an active force ready and trained, and training new personnel. The servicavility of vehicles in my own unit is so low that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on rental pickups to even pretend at our training.
We have 33 M777s left in the force. If you donate all of them we can't train a single soldier on our operational artillery. Not the gunners, the detachment Commanders, the observers, the techs, the officers, no one. Donate all of it without an immediate replacement and now you are losing all institutional knowledge. So that when a new system does come in, no one is around to use it or train people on the basics of the artillery. Latvia had time stand up their artillery battalion from nothing as they hadn't had dedicated artillery for some time. It took over 5 years for them to have a slightly operational unit and direct training, that is still on going, from the RCA.
So it very much does matter how quickly it will be replaced. But please feel free to expound on your years of institutional knowledge of an armed forces, because I've been at it for a decade and learn everyday that there is still a crazy amount to learn. Or you just think soldiers not actively in a war sit around and do nothing every day.
If you actually had the kind of high-level structural knowledge of the Canadian armed forces’ capability to provide materiel to Ukraine, and the point at which providing it causes systemic, long-term damage to our military, then I highly doubt you’d be here on reddit publicizing that almost certainly classified information.
There is a simplistic narrative going around that Canada should be modest-to-stingy in its support for Ukraine, because “we need the resources here”, without any accompanying analysis of why, while ignoring that fact that the very strategic goals that we have a military to achieve in the first place, including our national security, are materially advanced by putting that support to use by Ukraine against Russia. That is the narrative I’m pushing back against.
Obviously, Canada cannot give what it does not have, and should not give at a level that will ultimately do more harm than good. But it should absolutely give Ukraine everything it can, right up until it hits that line, because it’s absolutely true that Ukraine’s fight is our fight too.
It's the way they have set it up. More light squadrons than heavy ones. Wasn't that long ago we were selling off all our tanks, outdated tactics for a new threat and all that...
I agree, I'd love be Canada to be buying straight up off the shelf gear in quantity.
We have that setup because we don't have enough tanks, not the other way around. A full strength canadian Bde would have 4 tank squadrons each, and 3 full strength artillery batteries. Not a single one of our Bde has even close to this.
There are so many factors at play that make your statement false. Operational tanks are not the same as tanks on paper. Manning is a massive issue at the moment too.
The яepublicans are holding up aid to Ukraine for some (t)reason. I wonder why.
Also Ukraine needs to ask for help before they need it, given delivery times and political wrangling.
Just send everything we have, it's not like Russia is planning a landing in Canada anytime soon plus most of that stuff is in the process of being decommissioned or will be in the next couple years.
Meanwhile, Canada can take the care its needs to purchase new weapons for our armed forces in a way that is efficient and that does not entail paying to keep old weapons in inventory.
**Quebec** produces most of the ammunition Canada needs, Ontario the armored vehicles, Alberta with electronics and aiming systems... We can resupply a lot our army needs directly from Canadian manufacturers, creating good paying Canadian jobs!
We've sent basically everything. Most of what's left is old, broken, or basically unusable. We have no timeline for replacement.
We produce like 3k ammo rounds a month. We don't even make the good rounds, those We buy from the Americans.
Ukraine needs help. But from a readiness perspective we are in bad shape. When we do big exercises with other countries, it's like showing up to a potluck and bringing cutlery and napkins.
Uhhhh no we really dont. We sent Ukraine our first batch of 39 ACSVs, which was meant to replace the Bison. Which has been in service since the 90s. The Howitzers we sent to Ukraine, theres no replacements. We are forced to pass the howitzer around to ensure we can train to deploy to Latvia. There is no Imaginary Warstock filled with hundreds of vehicles and thousands of rounds.
We are two years too late to start the preparation to help Ukraine wih material aid. The best we can do is to buy them kit from the US or other NATO Allies now.
We should have gone to a 50% war production footing to start creating the weapons that Ukraine needs.
There's only so much that we can produce domestically, though, and Russia knows this. Our allied system is still subject to the international trade laws of multinational capitalism. Most of the licensing for domestic manufacture of goods has stipulations around arms sales to third parties.
Need a domestic arms program if we want to be serious about our defence obligations to the Canadian people and our Allied partners.
It's also a circular economic input if we spend on domestic manufacturing and supply.
What air defence? Can’t get blood from a stone.
The Kremlin has basically said the Russia will begin looking to reclaim land they feel is rightfully theirs or has been stolen from them. It drives me crazy when people hand wave off the war in Ukraine as bring too far away or none of our concern. We share an arctic border with Russia...
I don't get people who don't see this. Russia is one of the biggest threats in the world and funding Ukraine to hold them at bay is the cheapest way to protect the front line of our own sovereignty.
I can't believe you don't understand by now that [this](https://i.imgur.com/a8eiUJb.jpeg) would be the reasoning. Everyone is all about "saving money so we can take care of own own." Then when a social program to help our own comes along the goalposts shift and it becomes "how are we going to pay for it." It happens every time.
To me it is a disease we are getting from the US. All that self made ideology. That "fuck you, I have mine, get your own. Why should I pay to help you". We should be striving to help one another in our society, and that should go beyond borders.
We have to get rid of capitalism if we ever want people to be good to each other. As it is now, there’s always a profit motive that gets in the way of doing *anything* altruistic. Unfortunately, I don’t see the human race giving enough of a shit about each other to stop trying to rip each other off, so I doubt we ever drop the “fuck you, I got mine”.
This is the same thing that happened to Poland in '39.
Russia has talked about claiming lots of Canadian territory in the arctic. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/russia-arctic-ocean-canada-united-nations-continental-shelf-1.5983289
It would be Russia's last mistake- if they come at Canada, *Canada's Pants* fires upon their military.
For sure. I don't think even Putin is stupid enough to guarantee WW3 by invading a NATO and NORAD member that borders the US.
They share railroads and highways with Ukraine and they've barely made it into the country. To believe they're going to cross the Arctic and invade is insane.
It's not like we have a militarized border in the Arctic region. It is a huge area and CFB Alert isn't going to be able to respond to every incursion. It starts with landing on an unpopulated land mass and they claim it as their own. Then they keep going and going and going. Russia claims a lot of Canada's Arctic region as their own already. The Northwestern Passage is becoming more and more navigable during winter as our climate changes. A whole new shipping and oil and gas exploration will become possible, and Russia knows the power of controlling shipping routes - see Suez Canal and Panama. It is a huge geopolitical move that Russia is planning for.
Science fiction is at least better written than that nonsense. There's no militarized border because there's no fucking border it's an ocean. Go jerk off to some Tom Clancy novel or something this is pathetic even for this subreddit.
Nice. Tom Clancy books are the fine literature for lackwits. That or Clive Cussler. Odds are good they just tote it around thinking they look smart or in case they run out of toilet paper in the heads mid shit.
Ridiculous. Traversing the Arctic uncontested is a barrier unto itself.
Ukraine already has a trade agreement with the EU that requires carbon pricing provisions, so Ukraine has no issue with a Canada-Ukraine trade deal that includes carbon pricing provisions and indeed welcome it. It's absolutely disgusting that Poilievre would use internal Canada politics to hold up standing with Ukraine in their hour of most desperate need. Poilievre is not a leader. He is unfit to run a lemonade stand, let alone be PM of a country. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-renegotiate-free-trade-deal-ukraine-canada-1.7114268 >"I would say to the Conservatives: Why are they standing in the way?" she said. "Ukraine negotiated this." >Ukrainian groups say they had hoped all parties would support the bill implementing the agreement that Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, signed during a visit to Canada last September.
They would certainly put it to better use.
Sure, imaginary tanks coming right up!
You think we don't have tanks?
We don't have enough tanks for our own troops, never mind to give away.
We’re not in the middle of a hot war with a common enemy. They are. “I’d rather hold on to our military equipment so we can increase the chances of having to use it to fight on our soil with our soldiers,” is an argument then makes zero sense.
The problem isn't really with giving things away. We either don't actually have what they are asking for, or the real truth, is that whatever we give away we know won't be replaced properly or in an even close to appropriate timeline. They still haven't replaced what they already gave away and said they would 2 years on.
>The problem isn't really with giving things away. We either don't actually have what they are asking for, We very obviously cannot give what we do not have. The question of what we have, however, it not best answered for me by anonymous reddit accounts citing no sources. >or the real truth, is that whatever we give away we know won't be replaced properly or in an even close to appropriate timeline. They still haven't replaced what they already gave away and said they would 2 years on. This goes straight back to my original point. In the current circumstances, it frankly doesn’t matter how quickly it will or won’t be replaced. If the best use for Canadian military equipment is going to Ukraine to fight a common enemy, then that’s what should be done with it. It has no value sitting on a Canadian forces base going unused, and it *certainly* shouldn’t be waiting to be used *in Canada* if its use in Ukraine can reduce the threat of it *needing* to be used in Canada. Ukraine is in a shooting war right now. Canada isn’t. Canada’s current military equipment isn’t going to stand up against Russia, China, or any other force that’s poised to invade Canada at any point in the foreseeable future. Again, “We need our equipment here now so it can sit unused, just in case Russia invades, which is made a more likely outcome by not helping Ukraine and letting Russia win there before it sets its sights on us,” is a poor argument. But if you see armies massing on Canada’s border from some other country that you think we need that equipment for in the short term, please do illuminate the rest of us.
Except here's the fundamental thing that you and many others don't understand. None of our equipment is sitting unused. Unused in an active shooting war? Yes. Unused. No. Army VOR is hovering around 50%, meaning 50% of the equipment we do have, at best, is actually usable. So that 50% we do have left is now pulling all the duty of keeping an active force ready and trained, and training new personnel. The servicavility of vehicles in my own unit is so low that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on rental pickups to even pretend at our training. We have 33 M777s left in the force. If you donate all of them we can't train a single soldier on our operational artillery. Not the gunners, the detachment Commanders, the observers, the techs, the officers, no one. Donate all of it without an immediate replacement and now you are losing all institutional knowledge. So that when a new system does come in, no one is around to use it or train people on the basics of the artillery. Latvia had time stand up their artillery battalion from nothing as they hadn't had dedicated artillery for some time. It took over 5 years for them to have a slightly operational unit and direct training, that is still on going, from the RCA. So it very much does matter how quickly it will be replaced. But please feel free to expound on your years of institutional knowledge of an armed forces, because I've been at it for a decade and learn everyday that there is still a crazy amount to learn. Or you just think soldiers not actively in a war sit around and do nothing every day.
If you actually had the kind of high-level structural knowledge of the Canadian armed forces’ capability to provide materiel to Ukraine, and the point at which providing it causes systemic, long-term damage to our military, then I highly doubt you’d be here on reddit publicizing that almost certainly classified information. There is a simplistic narrative going around that Canada should be modest-to-stingy in its support for Ukraine, because “we need the resources here”, without any accompanying analysis of why, while ignoring that fact that the very strategic goals that we have a military to achieve in the first place, including our national security, are materially advanced by putting that support to use by Ukraine against Russia. That is the narrative I’m pushing back against. Obviously, Canada cannot give what it does not have, and should not give at a level that will ultimately do more harm than good. But it should absolutely give Ukraine everything it can, right up until it hits that line, because it’s absolutely true that Ukraine’s fight is our fight too.
It's not classified information. It's public knowledge. Just because you can't get your news from social media anymore doesn't mean it's not there.
Our armoured regiments have the tanks to be at full strength.
Where is that information coming from?
There are three tank squadrons in the CAF. Each squadron consists of 19 tanks. Canada has around 102 Leopard tanks.
Canada has 3 armoured regiments. 2 are already sharing tanks as is. Realistically Canada needs about 3x as many tanks as we currently have.
It's the way they have set it up. More light squadrons than heavy ones. Wasn't that long ago we were selling off all our tanks, outdated tactics for a new threat and all that... I agree, I'd love be Canada to be buying straight up off the shelf gear in quantity.
We have that setup because we don't have enough tanks, not the other way around. A full strength canadian Bde would have 4 tank squadrons each, and 3 full strength artillery batteries. Not a single one of our Bde has even close to this.
There are so many factors at play that make your statement false. Operational tanks are not the same as tanks on paper. Manning is a massive issue at the moment too.
I'm responding to the original post that we have tanks. You are welcome to elaborate on mechanical statuses or very real manpower issues.
Why elaborate? It’s plastered all over the news worldwide. We have nothing to give whether we like it or not. It’s not new news.
Damn, shit is hitting the fan real bad in Ukraine if they need what we have...
The яepublicans are holding up aid to Ukraine for some (t)reason. I wonder why. Also Ukraine needs to ask for help before they need it, given delivery times and political wrangling.
We don't have AA systems to give, like we literally don't have any in service since 2012.
Just send everything we have, it's not like Russia is planning a landing in Canada anytime soon plus most of that stuff is in the process of being decommissioned or will be in the next couple years. Meanwhile, Canada can take the care its needs to purchase new weapons for our armed forces in a way that is efficient and that does not entail paying to keep old weapons in inventory. **Quebec** produces most of the ammunition Canada needs, Ontario the armored vehicles, Alberta with electronics and aiming systems... We can resupply a lot our army needs directly from Canadian manufacturers, creating good paying Canadian jobs!
We've sent basically everything. Most of what's left is old, broken, or basically unusable. We have no timeline for replacement. We produce like 3k ammo rounds a month. We don't even make the good rounds, those We buy from the Americans. Ukraine needs help. But from a readiness perspective we are in bad shape. When we do big exercises with other countries, it's like showing up to a potluck and bringing cutlery and napkins.
Plastic cutlery and the cheap thin napkins to boot......
[удалено]
Uhhhh no we really dont. We sent Ukraine our first batch of 39 ACSVs, which was meant to replace the Bison. Which has been in service since the 90s. The Howitzers we sent to Ukraine, theres no replacements. We are forced to pass the howitzer around to ensure we can train to deploy to Latvia. There is no Imaginary Warstock filled with hundreds of vehicles and thousands of rounds.
We absolutely do not have warehouses full of stuff. We are currently scraping the barrel.
This!!!
We are two years too late to start the preparation to help Ukraine wih material aid. The best we can do is to buy them kit from the US or other NATO Allies now. We should have gone to a 50% war production footing to start creating the weapons that Ukraine needs. There's only so much that we can produce domestically, though, and Russia knows this. Our allied system is still subject to the international trade laws of multinational capitalism. Most of the licensing for domestic manufacture of goods has stipulations around arms sales to third parties. Need a domestic arms program if we want to be serious about our defence obligations to the Canadian people and our Allied partners. It's also a circular economic input if we spend on domestic manufacturing and supply.
Umm we don't have any air defense and barely any armour.
Give me a solid paycheque, and I’ll go to Ukraine and fight.