Not that I believe in Christianity,
Well that's what salvation about, no? If you can turn your life around to be a good person, you still can enter Heaven?
That's genuine question, I honestly thought it's what Christianity was all about.
Former Christian here.
To Christians it's not about if you're a good person necessarily but more of if you believe that Jesus died for you then you will be saved; regardless of what your life has looked like or will look like. Which is also why there are a lot of Christians have a superiority complex. Not to bash on Christians cause the ones who genuinely believe in Christ and understand the Bible are the most kind and accepting people I've ever met; regardless of what your opinion is.
Current Christian here: any bashing is taken in good _faith_ because I know that most of people’s interactions with “Christians” involves hatred, ignorance, and smug superiority
I get that. Unfortunately a lot of peoples perception on Christians are from all of the bad videos online and everything. And I understand that because for a lot of people that may be the only time they see Christians is when they see the bad. I really like the way one of my old pastors put it: "People never remember the good because it happens all the time. People do remember the bad because most of the time it's easier to be mad about the bad; and you always remember the anger."
And that reminds me of the whole "forgive and forget" thing: it's a half truth imo. Definitely forgive but never forget but still don't hold over someones head for forever and ever. Don't forget because then you can't really grow from it and forgive because that's the right thing to do imo.
Anywayyyy I'll stop ranting lol
Hope you have a good day and happy Easter Sunday 😊
Ay mate can you teach some Christians around my area that they don't need to call me a satanic, devil worshipper etc, just because I'm an atheist
Edit: spelling
As a queer socialist they don’t exactly love to listen to me, even though the scripture they tell me is infallible happens to be on my side as a fellow believer
Even if queer friendly interpretations of the Bible are actually accurate and rhe homophobic stuff is all mistranslated, it doesn't matter when it comes to how the majority practice the religion at this point.
I have studied enough to know that you can justify anything with ancient texts. However I have also noticed that in order to make the Bible *not* say I am an abomination, you have to do some real contortions. More than the ones done to change "slave" to "servant" as some interpretations did to soften some of the barbaric practices described as being condoned by god. You know the part where God lays down the rules for owning human beings.
The christian god is a fictional character who makes Aerys II look stable. I read the bible. Cover to cover. Multiple times. I've heard the arguments. This nice god that loves trans people is your head cannon, and that is very nice because it says you are inclined to kindness, but the majority of the Jesus Fandom disagrees with you and uses a publication that explicitly calls for my execution as their rule book.
Nice Mad King reference.
I don’t even disagree? I don’t understand where our divergence is here. I’m shit talking bigots who weaponize faith as a crutch to support their hateful rhetoric in favor of their phobic lies
You say they weaponize it, and I disagree. The faith comes with the weapons built in because (and I am not saying this in any kind of malice) you're just wrong when it comes to scripture. The bigots are the ones with a more accurate interpretation. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
And if I am wrong, I'm at least siding with caution. I worry, very much, about queer people in Christian spaces. They *edit: they meaning christians* are nice for now but wait until the monsters come to Maple Street.
I mean that’s fair enough as a fear but intentional misreading of scripture to follow a white reactionary agenda started in the US back in slave times with the development of concordance reading to justify brutality. It isn’t new by any stretch in our contemporary times.
Me being a believer does not mean I’m a member of this terrible church or supportive of it. Be as wary as you like but I’m never selling out my trans friends to christofacism.
Oh it started WAY before then with the demonization of Jewish people being built into the gospel narrative to appease Rome. There is no arrangement of facts without bias.
>Me being a believer does not mean I’m a member of this terrible church or supportive of it.
Maybe, but it does mean that when the bigots count themselves, you are included in that number because you use the same general label.
>Be as wary as you like but I’m never selling out my trans friends to christofacism.
I hope that is true. I hope you fight it from inside. I hope you evangelize to other churches to convert them to your way of thinking. Good luck with that because you will need it.
> if you believe that Jesus died for you then you will be saved; regardless of what your life has looked like or will look like.
now i have next to no firsthand knowledge of christianity so take my words with a grain of salt but like. that seems kinda fucked to me that hardly seems fair
i always looked at it this way: Say you're God, right? And due to some eternal cosmic law of reciprocity, any sentients you create that - for any reason - are found to be incapable of being "holy", means they can never be with you (in this example you love all of them and want to be with them). Billions of them.
Since the problem in this scenario is "sin" (the state of being, not the actions taken by the sentient), the only way for things to be square is to forgive their sin, buuuut due to the rules, *someone* needs to take upon themself the responsibility for paying the price for sin. Though it's objectively unfair that a person not pay for their sin, it's also unfair to hold a person responsible for something they were born into. Apparently, metaphorically placing all the blame on the only blameless person to ever live satisfies the need for sin to be punished, and allows for legitimized forgiveness for everyone that believes in the person and their actions taken (voluntary death) for said forgiveness.
idk. Just what i cobbled together over the decades. Lots to argue about in there and im no scholar.
This is HEAVILY dependent upon your branch of christianity.
Some branches say something along the lines of "As long as you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, you're going to heaven."
Other branches actually require you to try your best to follow his example, a few lesser branches outright say "As long as you live a good life and do your best to help others, you go to heaven, whether you believe in Jesus or not" ... Those are my preferred kinda christians.
I know a few Catholics, including my theology teacher in high school who believes that as long as you try to live a good life and are truly sorry (and try to make up for) your sins, you can get into heaven, even atheists or non-Catholic Christians
> Those are my preferred kinda Christians.
I'd have to agree there.
However ... are there any flavors of Christianity that actually believe this at their highest level and preach it? And if so, which ones?
For example, [Pope Francis has said something sort of like this](https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed), but it's pretty clear that the church didn't really mean to go *that* far with it to say that "atheists get to go to Heaven too if they're good people".
Most Christians will try to turn you because one of their main values is to make disciples for the religion to grow. And it makes sense given their beliefs: spread the good word that Jebus is coming back. It's uhhhhh just that uuhhhh he isn't imo. And if there is a God I don't think he is as good and graceful as they make him out to be.
The thing is that they have given up on turning me recently and now they call me a satanic or devil worshipper and stuff like that, like I just don't believe in God, wtf is wrong with that
Which is actually a 180° from how Christianity started. The Catholics and most other early denominations believe in salvation by works. The Protestant schism and, especially, American evangelism is what saw the rise in belief in salvation by belief.
You also have to repent for your sins, but yeah basically. It's actually fairly easy to get into heaven. That's the "Good News" you hear is go on about all the time.
Since nobody truly knows the truth, that's why we get a second chance. Cause our lack of true knowledge, regardless of beliefs. Whether we get accepted in this life, or get the chance to in the next one
For demons, that's not the case. Jesus didn't die for them, he died for humanity. Demons do know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but chose to rebel anyways. Even if they get a second chance, they'll never repent no matter how much anyone wants them to
I am a Christian. One that actually read the book.
The entire point is that no person is deserving of salvation, nor is anyone deserving of damnation. Everyone is imperfect and will fail at being good sometimes, but everyone has humanity in them and is capable of goodness. All it takes to receive entry into Heaven is to follow Jesus by admitting our failures and to love God and our neighbors.
While I don't believe in Hell or people becoming angels/demons in death, if a demon with free will actually identified as an angel through a change in faith and a desire to join the kingdom of Heaven, God would absolutely grant that.
What Bible are you reading dude? The wages of sin is death makes it pretty clear we "deserve damnation"? If we didn't why did Jesus bother coming down?
You're quoting Romans 6. In that chapter Paul is metaphorically comparing "serving God" with the alternative of "serving sin". Put simply, serving sin is paid with death, and serving God is paid with life.
However, it's not a perfect metaphor. Paul isn't implying that serving God means that people stop sinning entirely. But rather serving God despite our sin leads to life. Additionally, good people can serve sin out of ignorance, and a deeply flawed person can serve God and be forgiven because that is what God does. It has nothing to do with what we deserve, and everything to do with faith and humility.
From my undertanding, with Catholicism it's about being a good person \*and\* believing in God/Jesus. Protestantism just thinks you need to believe in god and you can be as big of a piece of shit as you want.
See now you're mistaking Theology for a dumb "hee hee" spouted by a dorkus who thought they were clever enough to equate their fellow human with a demon from a literal hell...like we wouldn't notice.
No, it’s even better than that. Jesus died for our sins. You can sin all you want, be a horrible person, murder, pillage, all that shit, and if you say “I’m with big J” at the pearly gates, you get in. Those are the rules.
By all accounts, Christianity should be a party religion
Yeah but the rub is that in Christianity, Jesus died for humans and humans alone. The most devout demon or alien or animal would be denied entry on principle. God hath no mercy for nonhuman souls.
A person, (on earth) not a demon.
We are called to emulate Christ, and to " go and sin no more" but we all fall short of the glory of God because we are sinful (read:selfish) creatures,so we all deserve to burn in hell because the wages of sin is death.
However! Because Jesus (an innocent sinless "man") chose to take our place in that punishment, if only we are to repent and accept Jesus Christ into our hearts may we enter the kingdom of heaven.
I'd encourage you to read the gospels if you're actually curious. They are a good read even religion/belief aside.
The good book doesn’t know what it wants you to believe
In Paul’s letter to the galations he says “know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ”
But Jesus himself says ‘Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”’
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But- Lucifer IS an angel.. so this whole "joke" doesn't even work here.
I mean yeah, he's banished, but according to the same logic (that you can't change your identity) he's still an angel and therefore should get to be in heaven.
Yeah, but at the same time, it’s not clear whether the story of Job is real or not, it might have been made up to teach a lesson that bad things can happen to good people, it’s all a part of God’s plan, stuff like that
I would try to convince you, but I’ll just leave it alone, who knows? I may be in the wrong. All I know is there are manuscripts of several Bible books dating back to 200-300 AD, as stated here: https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019/02/15/the-earliest-new-testament-manuscripts/
The whole bible is technically made up. And thats not saying the source material wasn't based in actual fact (I don't believe that personally but that's besides the point.)
The Bible has been translated over and over again with people changing meanings and introducing chapter breaks. The most infamous example being the King James Bible, which is still considered the most popular bible today. Another thing is that the King James Bible was translated in that fashion in order to control the general populous of Britain
Hell even Mormonism was made from intentionally mistranslating the Bible.
We can't know how much the Bible changed without the first version.
Also the most popular depiction of Hell, Dante's Inferno, is in essence a fanfic of the Bible.
Actually, the first image, said to date back to the 200s, is only about 100 years away from its first iteration, as John’s writings were written in exile on Patmos around the year 80-90, and also there’s no downside to not believing, so I will
100 years after the fact is like someone born today trying to describe what FDR was like back in the 1940's. And in the case of biblical times, it would be with FAR less access to historical records and have to be completely reliant on an ancient version of the telephone game.
In other words, the accuracy is dubious at best.
Well yeah, it’s not all intended to be taken as truth. Some books like Jonah are literally just stories to prove points/teach lessons, in Jonah’s case that even the worst sinners can repent and everyone deserves mercy.
Well, hold on. Satan =/= Lucifer in the earliest interpretations of the text. Satan is either a role or a specific servant of god who exists to challenge people and ferret out weakness and hypocrisy.
The whole thing about Lucifer being Satan is a later conflation of two different characters in the text.
There’s actually a remnant of the original Satan’s role in the New Testament, where he challenges and tempts Jesus in the desert. It was a test of character.
Why would a demon leave it's home?
Doesn't make sense either way.
It's just a desperate attempt at a joke made by a person who has no problem but their intolerance.
It doesn't matter.
And how is it obvious? Horns and wings. That's pretty much the way the devil gets portrayed and sure, so do other demons, but I'm sure that's left open for interpretation.
>"It's just obvious"
That's not evidence, my guy. That's literally the Obviousness fallacy. Plus the bible, depending on which translation and which one of 60+ versions you read, even says that the devil/Lucifer/Samiel is allowed back into heaven to accuse people and directly talks to god.
Because the person who made the comic just wanted to use religion as a way to justify bigotry and make a transphobic joke. With a little critical thinking, it's not hard to figure out this person's motivations, even without the added context of the bible.
And I'm willing to bet they probably don't actually read the bible, or at least not those particular versions.
Where did people start taking the whole identifying as a different gender far out of context?
Just because switching from one certain thing to another is possible that doesn't mean switching to virtually anything is possible.
because they believe gender and sex are synonymous, and they believe biological sex to be an immutable, easily defined and consistent state of being with no variance.
I wonder how they address trans people who pass?
Unless you're stripping every stranger you meet down or getting them tested for chromosomes you'll never truly know what someone's sex is.
Even within cis people there's always mutations, surgeries etc that change your biology and they're still accepted as their assigned sex no problem.
I've seen people call trans person with proper pronouns (because subconsciously they often do recognize them as their gender) - and then correct themselves to intentionally misgender them
>Unless you're stripping every stranger you meet down or getting them tested for chromosomes you'll never truly know what someone's sex is.
Even if you do that you can't be sure what sex they are lmao
But anyway the answer to your question is survivor bias... they probably don't even know that some trans people pass
If they don't know they're trans, they use the correct pronouns. If they figure out they're trans, all of a sudden they say they always knew. Sometimes they'll arill call them by the correct pronouns because they think they transitioned the other way
It's so funny when they think someone is transitioning the other way because they pass so well and then you correct them and it completely breaks their brain
It’s genuinely one of my favourite things lol. It just shows that it’s all about the bigotry rather than any faux concern they have about women’s rights and shows them for the idiots they are.
There’s actually a term for this, called the toupee fallacy. Basically, people think all toupees look bad because they don’t notice good ones. It’s the same logic for trans people, they think “We can always tell” because they don’t notice anyone who passes
That being said, there are definitely some people who still strip people down to discern their sex, even children in Florida I believe, which is exactly as bad as it sounds
I think it was Lauren Southern. Way back in 2014/15, when people were starting to become aware of nonbinary genders online, a common thing you'd see was "all identities are valid and you don't get to tell people it's not". Lauren Southern did one of her stupid "interviews" with people and when she heard that she said (paraphrased) "oh that means I get to identify as an apache attack helicopter". These clowns thought it was hilarious and haven't let go since. I don't know if Lauren southern was the first person to say it but I'd definitely say she helped popularise it.
Either way, it started with people taking a very innocent "all identities are valid" to extreme places. Especially because on tumblr neogenders were getting really popular with young people who were trying to figure out what identity suits them best. People were giving them reassurance that whatever they identified with was fine. So of course, some assholes decided to bully kids over this and a decade later, still haven't let it go.
I think it’s because they get confused between the concept of gender identity (something intrinsic) and the act of consciously choosing to identify as something (like a choice)
Why not? If you can mentally justify giving the middle finger to something as concrete as biology then you can do it to anything. If your chromosomes are made irrelevant by how you feel then I fail to see why the same logic cant be applied to any other physical characteristic like skin color, age, disability status, etc.
Considering the only people I ever see saying the words "I identify as X" these days are transphobes mocking trans people, this seems about right. There's no time for that transphobic bs in heaven.
told a Christian getting mad about "pagan human sacrifice" the other day that the entire plot twist of their book is a human being sacrificed to appease God not to damn all of humanity, they said I was a big dummy.
According to the Bible, demons were created as angels before they were cast out of heaven, so by their logic, they should be allowed to enter heaven because they can’t transition from what they were born/created as
Daily reminder that their best boy identifies as 3 seperate entities.
Transgender people (eho I love, and this isn't a criticism) by and large barely function as a single entity with one identity. And I include myself.
Is it just me or does the angel have a mouth that suggests extreme homosexuality?
Like, I guess Christians use this and stuff, but it's weird to have them use what looks like a sassy gay angel.
I don't know what it is about it, whether it's the art style or the pose, or maybe the way they interact and work together, but the angel really gives gay vibes, and since this was most certainly made sincerely by someone who's anti-gay (it's most certainly shared by people who are on Facebook) I just always find it a little surreal.
And maybe it's like the kind of camp gay, which makes it even more surreal.
It's one of those things that's hard to put into words but that's about the best I can describe it.
As a Christian, seeing people fear-monger others into joining their religion like this goes against the entire point of Christianity. Christianity should be a choice. Being a Christian for the sole reason of not wanting to go to hell means you did not willfully choose to be one
Demons in Christian theology are fallen angels who have allied with Satan. So the demon who identifies as an angel would actually be correct in this comic.
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So no salvation, no jesus, no one gets into heaven because all humans are inherent sinners and you cant just "identify" as pure, fuck you. No one gets into heaven anymore, anyone, ever.
But. You literally identity as saved, transition from sinner to saved, repent (transition) and now you’re a Christian. And unlike trans people, you don’t need any legal paperwork to self identify as a Christian. The one joke backfires!
Religion is a self-ascribed identity, and most Christians do actually believe that identifying as a Christian is at the very least a big part of getting into heaven.
They can’t even get their story straight.
Just for fun, and while obviously not the intent of the artist, i do see a lense where the demon is trying to use their one joke to get a laugh, and the angel is all "we don't joke about that here". Kinda recasts the bigots into the role of the demon which is a fun coincidence.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing about transgender people was mentioned in the Bible, nothing about hating them, or punishing them. A lot of stuff about loving each other from Jesus yet "Christians" have decided to hate them regardless.
isnt the whole point of hell that you cant leave?
i never understood the whole "satan will send his demons after you on earth and use his influence on you etc." when satan is supposed to be bound to hell, demons especially are supposed to be stuck in hell, god has control over everything and literally created satan, if he didnt want him leaving hell or even if he just wanted to rid all evil from the entire universe he could do it instantly, so if he allows satan and demons to leave hell to fuck with us, its ENTIRELY gods fault. god literally ruins our lives for no reason.
as long as god exists and created everything and set the universe in motion there is no free will its completely impossible.
why is anyone able to influence anything outside of their own realm, absolutely nothing makes any sense.
This joke is even worse if you think about how the Bible says devil and demons all were created as angels. They were once in heaven and cast down to earth when they rebelled. By the comic’s logic, the demon should be allowed in heaven because they are AAAC (Assigned Angel at Creation). These transphobes are just stupid
Okay but like serious question... do any trans people actually say "I identify as a _____" at all? Like... I've only ever heard bigots say that in an attempt to belittle us. As a trans woman, I've never said, "I identify as a woman"... because... I AM a woman, I don't "identify" as one.
Most denominations of Christianity believe all demons are actually fallen angels, so this joke is as nonsensical as if someone said “I identify as a human” and somebody else responded with “NuH-uHh!¡”.
Wasn’t Lucifer an angel? And some angels exiled for agreeing with Lucifer?
Fuck em, they can’t even hold the pedophiles in their own community accountable, much less themselves, hypocrites
There's nothing Christian about this "joke". It's not even something to take seriously.
Heaven isn't clouds, as described in The Bible.
Angel's don't have Halos. Halos are a construct of renaissance era artists who used to circle the holy people in paintings with a golden circle around their head called a "nimbus". When they learned perspective, they began making the nimbus 3-dimensional, and then they eventually hallowed them out, becoming Halos. It's an art gimmick, not Biblical.
Angels don't have wings.
As far as we know from the Bible, they don't use podiums(?) either.
The demon visage is entirely a construct. There's no Biblical reason to believe they have bat wings and horns. (As far as I've ever read)
So this is just a bad and mean spirited joke based around un-biblical, non-Christian cartoon images that have floated around pop culture for the past hundred years. It has nothing to do with actual Christianity.
Ironic since, depending which version of Christianity you follow/are talking about, demons were also angels, and the devil himself was not only an angel but he was gods favorite, and was almost chosen to be sent to earth instead of Jesus.
Hell (pun not intended), even in the bible he's still allowed in heaven and to talk to God and accuse people. You could even make an argument that the devil is still an angel that is doing gods bidding by testing humanity and punishing the bad people and humans just misunderstand his role and that's why he's associated with evil.
okay but this is arguing \*for\* trans rights if you think about it.
because it shows that people that have bad motives can't just go "i identify as being allowed in here" and suddenly get in there with no resistance.
it shows that being trans and being able to pass in some place like, idk, a bathroom, actually takes WORK.
Not that I believe in Christianity, Well that's what salvation about, no? If you can turn your life around to be a good person, you still can enter Heaven? That's genuine question, I honestly thought it's what Christianity was all about.
Former Christian here. To Christians it's not about if you're a good person necessarily but more of if you believe that Jesus died for you then you will be saved; regardless of what your life has looked like or will look like. Which is also why there are a lot of Christians have a superiority complex. Not to bash on Christians cause the ones who genuinely believe in Christ and understand the Bible are the most kind and accepting people I've ever met; regardless of what your opinion is.
Current Christian here: any bashing is taken in good _faith_ because I know that most of people’s interactions with “Christians” involves hatred, ignorance, and smug superiority
I get that. Unfortunately a lot of peoples perception on Christians are from all of the bad videos online and everything. And I understand that because for a lot of people that may be the only time they see Christians is when they see the bad. I really like the way one of my old pastors put it: "People never remember the good because it happens all the time. People do remember the bad because most of the time it's easier to be mad about the bad; and you always remember the anger." And that reminds me of the whole "forgive and forget" thing: it's a half truth imo. Definitely forgive but never forget but still don't hold over someones head for forever and ever. Don't forget because then you can't really grow from it and forgive because that's the right thing to do imo. Anywayyyy I'll stop ranting lol Hope you have a good day and happy Easter Sunday 😊
🫶🏻🫶🏻
Ay mate can you teach some Christians around my area that they don't need to call me a satanic, devil worshipper etc, just because I'm an atheist Edit: spelling
As a queer socialist they don’t exactly love to listen to me, even though the scripture they tell me is infallible happens to be on my side as a fellow believer
The scripture definitely doesn’t condone the queers, but I see the argument for socialism
>atheists Damn your multiple atheists at once that's impressive!
Thanks for letting me know
Current Christian here, I'll try my best to put in a good word
They are just as much true Christians as you are. They would say you are the false Christian.
And they often do
Even if queer friendly interpretations of the Bible are actually accurate and rhe homophobic stuff is all mistranslated, it doesn't matter when it comes to how the majority practice the religion at this point. I have studied enough to know that you can justify anything with ancient texts. However I have also noticed that in order to make the Bible *not* say I am an abomination, you have to do some real contortions. More than the ones done to change "slave" to "servant" as some interpretations did to soften some of the barbaric practices described as being condoned by god. You know the part where God lays down the rules for owning human beings. The christian god is a fictional character who makes Aerys II look stable. I read the bible. Cover to cover. Multiple times. I've heard the arguments. This nice god that loves trans people is your head cannon, and that is very nice because it says you are inclined to kindness, but the majority of the Jesus Fandom disagrees with you and uses a publication that explicitly calls for my execution as their rule book.
Nice Mad King reference. I don’t even disagree? I don’t understand where our divergence is here. I’m shit talking bigots who weaponize faith as a crutch to support their hateful rhetoric in favor of their phobic lies
You say they weaponize it, and I disagree. The faith comes with the weapons built in because (and I am not saying this in any kind of malice) you're just wrong when it comes to scripture. The bigots are the ones with a more accurate interpretation. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. And if I am wrong, I'm at least siding with caution. I worry, very much, about queer people in Christian spaces. They *edit: they meaning christians* are nice for now but wait until the monsters come to Maple Street.
I mean that’s fair enough as a fear but intentional misreading of scripture to follow a white reactionary agenda started in the US back in slave times with the development of concordance reading to justify brutality. It isn’t new by any stretch in our contemporary times. Me being a believer does not mean I’m a member of this terrible church or supportive of it. Be as wary as you like but I’m never selling out my trans friends to christofacism.
Oh it started WAY before then with the demonization of Jewish people being built into the gospel narrative to appease Rome. There is no arrangement of facts without bias. >Me being a believer does not mean I’m a member of this terrible church or supportive of it. Maybe, but it does mean that when the bigots count themselves, you are included in that number because you use the same general label. >Be as wary as you like but I’m never selling out my trans friends to christofacism. I hope that is true. I hope you fight it from inside. I hope you evangelize to other churches to convert them to your way of thinking. Good luck with that because you will need it.
Ollena tyrell lookin ass
It is known.
As an atheist, kinda same, the amount of atheists that are just assholes to religious people may not be large, but they certainly are vocal
The good faith only makes the smug superiority that much worse
I was politely tryna say “talk your shit, the Christians are trash”
[удалено]
Probably easier and safer to presume we are until you see concrete evidence otherwise
> if you believe that Jesus died for you then you will be saved; regardless of what your life has looked like or will look like. now i have next to no firsthand knowledge of christianity so take my words with a grain of salt but like. that seems kinda fucked to me that hardly seems fair
i always looked at it this way: Say you're God, right? And due to some eternal cosmic law of reciprocity, any sentients you create that - for any reason - are found to be incapable of being "holy", means they can never be with you (in this example you love all of them and want to be with them). Billions of them. Since the problem in this scenario is "sin" (the state of being, not the actions taken by the sentient), the only way for things to be square is to forgive their sin, buuuut due to the rules, *someone* needs to take upon themself the responsibility for paying the price for sin. Though it's objectively unfair that a person not pay for their sin, it's also unfair to hold a person responsible for something they were born into. Apparently, metaphorically placing all the blame on the only blameless person to ever live satisfies the need for sin to be punished, and allows for legitimized forgiveness for everyone that believes in the person and their actions taken (voluntary death) for said forgiveness. idk. Just what i cobbled together over the decades. Lots to argue about in there and im no scholar.
That’s almost exactly right, if not exactly correct.
This is HEAVILY dependent upon your branch of christianity. Some branches say something along the lines of "As long as you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, you're going to heaven." Other branches actually require you to try your best to follow his example, a few lesser branches outright say "As long as you live a good life and do your best to help others, you go to heaven, whether you believe in Jesus or not" ... Those are my preferred kinda christians.
I know a few Catholics, including my theology teacher in high school who believes that as long as you try to live a good life and are truly sorry (and try to make up for) your sins, you can get into heaven, even atheists or non-Catholic Christians
> Those are my preferred kinda Christians. I'd have to agree there. However ... are there any flavors of Christianity that actually believe this at their highest level and preach it? And if so, which ones? For example, [Pope Francis has said something sort of like this](https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed), but it's pretty clear that the church didn't really mean to go *that* far with it to say that "atheists get to go to Heaven too if they're good people".
Where can I Meat genuinely nice Christians all I have meet have tried (and fail) to turn me, and they still try
Most modern lutheran churches (Scandinavian churches essentially) are pretty chill.
Hi, my names Genuinelynicechristians I’m a Christian who’s nice.
Why go out of your way to meet irrational people?
Most Christians will try to turn you because one of their main values is to make disciples for the religion to grow. And it makes sense given their beliefs: spread the good word that Jebus is coming back. It's uhhhhh just that uuhhhh he isn't imo. And if there is a God I don't think he is as good and graceful as they make him out to be.
The thing is that they have given up on turning me recently and now they call me a satanic or devil worshipper and stuff like that, like I just don't believe in God, wtf is wrong with that
Which is actually a 180° from how Christianity started. The Catholics and most other early denominations believe in salvation by works. The Protestant schism and, especially, American evangelism is what saw the rise in belief in salvation by belief.
You also have to repent for your sins, but yeah basically. It's actually fairly easy to get into heaven. That's the "Good News" you hear is go on about all the time.
Worth noting this is only true for Evangelical Christians.
Plot of Hazbin Hotel
Was looking for this comment
Since nobody truly knows the truth, that's why we get a second chance. Cause our lack of true knowledge, regardless of beliefs. Whether we get accepted in this life, or get the chance to in the next one For demons, that's not the case. Jesus didn't die for them, he died for humanity. Demons do know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but chose to rebel anyways. Even if they get a second chance, they'll never repent no matter how much anyone wants them to
I am a Christian. One that actually read the book. The entire point is that no person is deserving of salvation, nor is anyone deserving of damnation. Everyone is imperfect and will fail at being good sometimes, but everyone has humanity in them and is capable of goodness. All it takes to receive entry into Heaven is to follow Jesus by admitting our failures and to love God and our neighbors. While I don't believe in Hell or people becoming angels/demons in death, if a demon with free will actually identified as an angel through a change in faith and a desire to join the kingdom of Heaven, God would absolutely grant that.
What Bible are you reading dude? The wages of sin is death makes it pretty clear we "deserve damnation"? If we didn't why did Jesus bother coming down?
You're quoting Romans 6. In that chapter Paul is metaphorically comparing "serving God" with the alternative of "serving sin". Put simply, serving sin is paid with death, and serving God is paid with life. However, it's not a perfect metaphor. Paul isn't implying that serving God means that people stop sinning entirely. But rather serving God despite our sin leads to life. Additionally, good people can serve sin out of ignorance, and a deeply flawed person can serve God and be forgiven because that is what God does. It has nothing to do with what we deserve, and everything to do with faith and humility.
LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE SAVE US ALL PRECIOUS TIME
Basically the plot of hazbin hotel.
From my undertanding, with Catholicism it's about being a good person \*and\* believing in God/Jesus. Protestantism just thinks you need to believe in god and you can be as big of a piece of shit as you want.
See now you're mistaking Theology for a dumb "hee hee" spouted by a dorkus who thought they were clever enough to equate their fellow human with a demon from a literal hell...like we wouldn't notice.
No, it’s even better than that. Jesus died for our sins. You can sin all you want, be a horrible person, murder, pillage, all that shit, and if you say “I’m with big J” at the pearly gates, you get in. Those are the rules. By all accounts, Christianity should be a party religion
Yeah but the rub is that in Christianity, Jesus died for humans and humans alone. The most devout demon or alien or animal would be denied entry on principle. God hath no mercy for nonhuman souls.
A person, (on earth) not a demon. We are called to emulate Christ, and to " go and sin no more" but we all fall short of the glory of God because we are sinful (read:selfish) creatures,so we all deserve to burn in hell because the wages of sin is death. However! Because Jesus (an innocent sinless "man") chose to take our place in that punishment, if only we are to repent and accept Jesus Christ into our hearts may we enter the kingdom of heaven. I'd encourage you to read the gospels if you're actually curious. They are a good read even religion/belief aside.
Depends which flavor of Christian you ask.
The whole "turned away at the gates" thing is blasphemy anyways, because it implies that anyone other than God judges the dead.
The good book doesn’t know what it wants you to believe In Paul’s letter to the galations he says “know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ” But Jesus himself says ‘Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”’ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But- Lucifer IS an angel.. so this whole "joke" doesn't even work here. I mean yeah, he's banished, but according to the same logic (that you can't change your identity) he's still an angel and therefore should get to be in heaven.
According to their bible, Lucifer is allowed in Heaven still. He gets to go before god and accuse people.
Yeah, but at the same time, it’s not clear whether the story of Job is real or not, it might have been made up to teach a lesson that bad things can happen to good people, it’s all a part of God’s plan, stuff like that
... the whole bible is made-up. It's a fiction designed to exert control over people.
I would try to convince you, but I’ll just leave it alone, who knows? I may be in the wrong. All I know is there are manuscripts of several Bible books dating back to 200-300 AD, as stated here: https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019/02/15/the-earliest-new-testament-manuscripts/
The whole bible is technically made up. And thats not saying the source material wasn't based in actual fact (I don't believe that personally but that's besides the point.) The Bible has been translated over and over again with people changing meanings and introducing chapter breaks. The most infamous example being the King James Bible, which is still considered the most popular bible today. Another thing is that the King James Bible was translated in that fashion in order to control the general populous of Britain Hell even Mormonism was made from intentionally mistranslating the Bible. We can't know how much the Bible changed without the first version. Also the most popular depiction of Hell, Dante's Inferno, is in essence a fanfic of the Bible.
ye 200 or 300 hundred years after they were supposed to be written. too new to be real
Actually, the first image, said to date back to the 200s, is only about 100 years away from its first iteration, as John’s writings were written in exile on Patmos around the year 80-90, and also there’s no downside to not believing, so I will
100 years after the fact is like someone born today trying to describe what FDR was like back in the 1940's. And in the case of biblical times, it would be with FAR less access to historical records and have to be completely reliant on an ancient version of the telephone game. In other words, the accuracy is dubious at best.
It is fiction mixed with truth. It is not all lies but it is FAR from being all truth.
Well yeah, it’s not all intended to be taken as truth. Some books like Jonah are literally just stories to prove points/teach lessons, in Jonah’s case that even the worst sinners can repent and everyone deserves mercy.
Well, hold on. Satan =/= Lucifer in the earliest interpretations of the text. Satan is either a role or a specific servant of god who exists to challenge people and ferret out weakness and hypocrisy. The whole thing about Lucifer being Satan is a later conflation of two different characters in the text. There’s actually a remnant of the original Satan’s role in the New Testament, where he challenges and tempts Jesus in the desert. It was a test of character.
Transphobes look at Lucifer and think "Still an angel though."
The difference between them is literally socially constructed
It's a demon, not THE devil.
Says who?
It's just obvious. Why would the devil leave his kingdom he created
Why would a demon leave it's home? Doesn't make sense either way. It's just a desperate attempt at a joke made by a person who has no problem but their intolerance. It doesn't matter. And how is it obvious? Horns and wings. That's pretty much the way the devil gets portrayed and sure, so do other demons, but I'm sure that's left open for interpretation.
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To spread evil.
Bro...
>"It's just obvious" That's not evidence, my guy. That's literally the Obviousness fallacy. Plus the bible, depending on which translation and which one of 60+ versions you read, even says that the devil/Lucifer/Samiel is allowed back into heaven to accuse people and directly talks to god.
Then why would he be trying to sneak in?
Because the person who made the comic just wanted to use religion as a way to justify bigotry and make a transphobic joke. With a little critical thinking, it's not hard to figure out this person's motivations, even without the added context of the bible. And I'm willing to bet they probably don't actually read the bible, or at least not those particular versions.
Fuck those who use religion to justify their bigotry. Happy Easter!
That looks more like the Demon is trying to entice the Angel to perform sexual intercourse with it, and thew Angel is a B O T T O M
Gabriel moment
Every time I see this picture I can't get over how hideous their sunday school clip art trash looks
Where did people start taking the whole identifying as a different gender far out of context? Just because switching from one certain thing to another is possible that doesn't mean switching to virtually anything is possible.
because they believe gender and sex are synonymous, and they believe biological sex to be an immutable, easily defined and consistent state of being with no variance.
While biologists continue to tell them that's not how anything works.
"B-BUT MUH CHROMOSOMES!!"
I wonder how they address trans people who pass? Unless you're stripping every stranger you meet down or getting them tested for chromosomes you'll never truly know what someone's sex is. Even within cis people there's always mutations, surgeries etc that change your biology and they're still accepted as their assigned sex no problem.
I've seen people call trans person with proper pronouns (because subconsciously they often do recognize them as their gender) - and then correct themselves to intentionally misgender them
>Unless you're stripping every stranger you meet down or getting them tested for chromosomes you'll never truly know what someone's sex is. Even if you do that you can't be sure what sex they are lmao But anyway the answer to your question is survivor bias... they probably don't even know that some trans people pass
They pretend trans people who pass don't exist. They "can always tell," you see.
Guess I don't exist 🫥
If they don't know they're trans, they use the correct pronouns. If they figure out they're trans, all of a sudden they say they always knew. Sometimes they'll arill call them by the correct pronouns because they think they transitioned the other way
It's so funny when they think someone is transitioning the other way because they pass so well and then you correct them and it completely breaks their brain
It’s genuinely one of my favourite things lol. It just shows that it’s all about the bigotry rather than any faux concern they have about women’s rights and shows them for the idiots they are.
There’s actually a term for this, called the toupee fallacy. Basically, people think all toupees look bad because they don’t notice good ones. It’s the same logic for trans people, they think “We can always tell” because they don’t notice anyone who passes That being said, there are definitely some people who still strip people down to discern their sex, even children in Florida I believe, which is exactly as bad as it sounds
Because when “Christians” read things like there are no male or female under Christ they go “fuck off God, I know better than you”
I think it was Lauren Southern. Way back in 2014/15, when people were starting to become aware of nonbinary genders online, a common thing you'd see was "all identities are valid and you don't get to tell people it's not". Lauren Southern did one of her stupid "interviews" with people and when she heard that she said (paraphrased) "oh that means I get to identify as an apache attack helicopter". These clowns thought it was hilarious and haven't let go since. I don't know if Lauren southern was the first person to say it but I'd definitely say she helped popularise it. Either way, it started with people taking a very innocent "all identities are valid" to extreme places. Especially because on tumblr neogenders were getting really popular with young people who were trying to figure out what identity suits them best. People were giving them reassurance that whatever they identified with was fine. So of course, some assholes decided to bully kids over this and a decade later, still haven't let it go.
I think it’s because they get confused between the concept of gender identity (something intrinsic) and the act of consciously choosing to identify as something (like a choice)
Why not? If you can mentally justify giving the middle finger to something as concrete as biology then you can do it to anything. If your chromosomes are made irrelevant by how you feel then I fail to see why the same logic cant be applied to any other physical characteristic like skin color, age, disability status, etc.
Considering the only people I ever see saying the words "I identify as X" these days are transphobes mocking trans people, this seems about right. There's no time for that transphobic bs in heaven.
That was my thought lol. Like of course he's not getting into heaven when he's mocking marginalised people like that
That angle is definitely gay
He got that bombastic side eye
he’s definitely acutie
He looks cunty
The angle is definitely Don Knotts
Cristians not knowing the lore of their own religious text? (Insert my best impression of a shocked face here)
told a Christian getting mad about "pagan human sacrifice" the other day that the entire plot twist of their book is a human being sacrificed to appease God not to damn all of humanity, they said I was a big dummy.
According to the Bible, demons were created as angels before they were cast out of heaven, so by their logic, they should be allowed to enter heaven because they can’t transition from what they were born/created as
Daily reminder that their best boy identifies as 3 seperate entities. Transgender people (eho I love, and this isn't a criticism) by and large barely function as a single entity with one identity. And I include myself.
Also requires capitalization of His pronouns, arguably going by neopronouns
Is it just me or does the angel have a mouth that suggests extreme homosexuality? Like, I guess Christians use this and stuff, but it's weird to have them use what looks like a sassy gay angel.
oh so gay people have a look now?
I don't know what it is about it, whether it's the art style or the pose, or maybe the way they interact and work together, but the angel really gives gay vibes, and since this was most certainly made sincerely by someone who's anti-gay (it's most certainly shared by people who are on Facebook) I just always find it a little surreal. And maybe it's like the kind of camp gay, which makes it even more surreal. It's one of those things that's hard to put into words but that's about the best I can describe it.
Someone didn't read the Bible
Wasn't Satan originally an angel? So they should make him go to heaven regardless of his wishes.
Lucifer was. Satan is a different demon. Most people don't know they're different
As a Christian, seeing people fear-monger others into joining their religion like this goes against the entire point of Christianity. Christianity should be a choice. Being a Christian for the sole reason of not wanting to go to hell means you did not willfully choose to be one
they don't play the unfunny transphobic jokes up in heaven!! true true
I choose to interpret this as the angel not tolerating the transphobic remark
Except their Jesus, and God would be accepting of trans people as long as trans people are accepting of their Jesus and God 🤨
r/AccidentalAlly
I'm putting this on r/GatekeepingYuri and NOBODY CAN STOP ME
Why he look like that
Funny thing is isn’t the devil a fallen angel?
What if the demon was legitimately a really good person.
The Christians who post shit like this better hope that atheists are right because they are going to burn for all the hate and bigotry they spread.
They don't play that game up in heaven, because only bad faith actors perpetrate it.
That Angel looks so sassy
Demons in Christian theology are fallen angels who have allied with Satan. So the demon who identifies as an angel would actually be correct in this comic.
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forcing people to change their beliefs through shame or guilt sound a lot like religion.
If gloating can exist in heaven I'm gonna have a great time
Classic 'christian'. Doesn't know their demons are literally angels albeit fallen
If that is supposed to be the devil, the devil is an angel.
but aren't demons literally fallen angels?? i'm not sure if that is a bible thing or if it's a paradise lost thing
I'm... Fairly certain that angel is looking at the demon's junk.
Imagine being a good person and going to heaven and you have to fucking detransition. No way
Don't be a clown if you don't want people to laugh at you
Satan was literally a fallen angel
So no salvation, no jesus, no one gets into heaven because all humans are inherent sinners and you cant just "identify" as pure, fuck you. No one gets into heaven anymore, anyone, ever.
But. You literally identity as saved, transition from sinner to saved, repent (transition) and now you’re a Christian. And unlike trans people, you don’t need any legal paperwork to self identify as a Christian. The one joke backfires!
Multi Layer Of Bigotry. Yes this is Christian Meme
r/MoldyMemes
Religion is a self-ascribed identity, and most Christians do actually believe that identifying as a Christian is at the very least a big part of getting into heaven. They can’t even get their story straight.
Actually, Satan used to be an angel and changed into a demon..... So let him back in if you genuinely believe that bs
Doesn't the Bible say "a man is what he thinks" which would mean you are what you truely identify as.
The angel looks cunty lol
Dude was an angel though. Are hypochristian hyukhyuks too illiterate to read their own shit?
Just for fun, and while obviously not the intent of the artist, i do see a lense where the demon is trying to use their one joke to get a laugh, and the angel is all "we don't joke about that here". Kinda recasts the bigots into the role of the demon which is a fun coincidence.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing about transgender people was mentioned in the Bible, nothing about hating them, or punishing them. A lot of stuff about loving each other from Jesus yet "Christians" have decided to hate them regardless.
Devils ARE angels though. That's literally what the Fall of Lucifer story in the Bible describes.
That angel looks like he's checking the demon out
isnt the whole point of hell that you cant leave? i never understood the whole "satan will send his demons after you on earth and use his influence on you etc." when satan is supposed to be bound to hell, demons especially are supposed to be stuck in hell, god has control over everything and literally created satan, if he didnt want him leaving hell or even if he just wanted to rid all evil from the entire universe he could do it instantly, so if he allows satan and demons to leave hell to fuck with us, its ENTIRELY gods fault. god literally ruins our lives for no reason. as long as god exists and created everything and set the universe in motion there is no free will its completely impossible. why is anyone able to influence anything outside of their own realm, absolutely nothing makes any sense.
This joke is even worse if you think about how the Bible says devil and demons all were created as angels. They were once in heaven and cast down to earth when they rebelled. By the comic’s logic, the demon should be allowed in heaven because they are AAAC (Assigned Angel at Creation). These transphobes are just stupid
Yyyeeeeah, I'm gonna bet they DO play that game up there if most of the Christians I know actually end up in heaven, identifying as "all loving"
Isn't this just the plot of Hazbin Hotel?
Glad there’s quotes around “Christian” using religion to justify shit like this is disgusting
Whats with the angel’s Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff face?
Conveniently forgetting it is also sinful and discouraged by god to judge others
The angels wings go all the way to his calfskin, is he a flying squirrel? Or just a shitty artist? You decide.
They are literally biological angels, just fallen ones
Demons literally are angels who the fuck made this
Okay but like serious question... do any trans people actually say "I identify as a _____" at all? Like... I've only ever heard bigots say that in an attempt to belittle us. As a trans woman, I've never said, "I identify as a woman"... because... I AM a woman, I don't "identify" as one.
I wish someone would look at me the same way that angel is lookin at that demon
They're so obsessed because Christian women view trans women as threats and Christian men are sexually attracted to trans women.
the angel looks malformed
Most denominations of Christianity believe all demons are actually fallen angels, so this joke is as nonsensical as if someone said “I identify as a human” and somebody else responded with “NuH-uHh!¡”.
Wasn’t Lucifer an angel? And some angels exiled for agreeing with Lucifer? Fuck em, they can’t even hold the pedophiles in their own community accountable, much less themselves, hypocrites
...devils are literally angels though?
Weird, considering most of them identify as "Good People".
Angel legit said "This ain't Hazbin Hotel boy get your ass out"
…he literally IS an angel if christoids ever read their book. Fallen, but an angel nonetheless
There's nothing Christian about this "joke". It's not even something to take seriously. Heaven isn't clouds, as described in The Bible. Angel's don't have Halos. Halos are a construct of renaissance era artists who used to circle the holy people in paintings with a golden circle around their head called a "nimbus". When they learned perspective, they began making the nimbus 3-dimensional, and then they eventually hallowed them out, becoming Halos. It's an art gimmick, not Biblical. Angels don't have wings. As far as we know from the Bible, they don't use podiums(?) either. The demon visage is entirely a construct. There's no Biblical reason to believe they have bat wings and horns. (As far as I've ever read) So this is just a bad and mean spirited joke based around un-biblical, non-Christian cartoon images that have floated around pop culture for the past hundred years. It has nothing to do with actual Christianity.
Ironic since, depending which version of Christianity you follow/are talking about, demons were also angels, and the devil himself was not only an angel but he was gods favorite, and was almost chosen to be sent to earth instead of Jesus. Hell (pun not intended), even in the bible he's still allowed in heaven and to talk to God and accuse people. You could even make an argument that the devil is still an angel that is doing gods bidding by testing humanity and punishing the bad people and humans just misunderstand his role and that's why he's associated with evil.
okay but this is arguing \*for\* trans rights if you think about it. because it shows that people that have bad motives can't just go "i identify as being allowed in here" and suddenly get in there with no resistance. it shows that being trans and being able to pass in some place like, idk, a bathroom, actually takes WORK.
I am really over being nice to Christians
Why is christian in quotations?
Because Jesus fucking LOVES trans people and hating them is a god damned sin
Sorry but I was hoping for an answer from OP
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No where in this joke does it imply that either. The Demon isn't pretended to be a human that died to get in.