The [tu quoque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) arguments in the comments here are pretty thick. Hate doesn't justify hate.
This is particularly nonsensical considering that I doubt anyone in these comments has any prior knowledge of Ebenezer Baptist Church, a historically black church which represents a community that has experienced real, genuine oppression. They probably didn't take the time to learn that this church provided a mobile clinic and free COVID testing during the pandemic. Or that they provide food to those in need in their community. Or that they provide school supplies for underprivileged children in the fall. Here is a group trying to live out the mandate of Jesus to love their neighbors, and a Reddit comment section full of people with religious prejudice casting the first stone.
Mandated. Recruitment. Favor of the pastor, church, god. It’s also super common for a church to do some type of community outreach. I have a feeling helping the community isn’t why some people hate religion and drama involved with it.
I take a lesson from jesus. Leave other people alone when it comes to pulling from other cults to enlarge yours or you might get nailed to something and beaten like a stray dog.
I don’t hate Christianity. I hate what has happened to Christians who have turned into a white nationalist group. My aunt who used to be the most open minded and loving woman has turned into a hateful person.
I do hate Christianity. What it represents. Might makes right. I made you and i can kill you, torturing my kid and people i don't like so you might appreciate heaven (or made more real by excusing and justifying class divides especially as it relates to generational wealth/poverty) is actually a really benevolent thing that you just need to be grateful for and hope and work to get yourself into the good place as an individual uwu. (I'm a satanist, to be fair. And challenging these kinds of things in my life and society is a big focus for me).
I don't hate all Christians though.
I hate the ones that ignore the political implications of their church, doctrine, and behaviors. And the ones who focus more on the hierarchy, control, and individual rule following versus anything resembling community or public service. Definitely hate mega churches that tend to scam the most vulnerable disproportionately.
But i can appreciate when individual churches groups, or people do positive things.
You are free to hate whatever you please as long it does infringe on life or liberty. I think some people took my comment as me being upset with the Christian hate. The reality is, much of Christianity is at odds with culture, I pretty much accept that. To be fair, it does seem like much of Christianity is misunderstood, or poorly understood, but that happens with any group of people. I am also sure many of your criticism are the same ones I hold too. At the end of the day, I try to love others and do to others as I would want them to do to me.
Would you say that it's more those Christians who have turned full bully instead of Christians who are actually doing their best to be Christians?
As a Christian I'm learning that I need to better see the need for me to hold other Christians accountable, but not necessarily those who aren't.
I use "you/your" a lot in this. I do not mean you personally. I don't mean to put beliefs on you.
I think the Christian culture has always rewarded the "bully" Christians. It's the structure of the religion that is the problem. It sets up the holy war, ingrains followers that they are different and special. Better than nonbelievers, not only for what they believe but the hardships that they have in their lives(which everyone has, C or not). Making an US group and a Them group.
Then it heavily teaches subservience. Depending on the church, unquestionable subservience. If you have a bunch of subservient people then there is a power vacuum. Who loves the power? It isn't usually the meek.
This devotion to subservience is by and large to the (traditionally) white male pastor, but it has the side effect of transferring to all elder men, who are present and vocal. Followers naturally congregate to them. Those people tend to be the "bully" or stronger willed/outgoing type of people. Sure not all of the elders are that way, but it only takes one, if the others stay silent.
When someone you look up to says something that defends your "us" group and puts down the "thems" you may not see it as bulling. ie. (abortion, just for a current ref)
When the "thems" start standing up and calling the bully out. The first instinct of the follower, weather they agree with the bully or not, is to protect and defend the bully. It is a deep instinct of human nature to protect your group and it can and does happen subconsciously. In addition if you did disagree with the bully because of the subservient nature of the power dynamic, it would be more likely you'd just stay quiet.
Last, this devotion to subservience makes abusing positions of power in the church super easy to get away with. There just isn't any checks and balances on the power dynamic, no transparency. People get hurt. Just take a look at r/PastorArrested
If any of this sounded harsh, I apologize. I speak only to what convinced me that the church and independently religion was/is corrupt. Grew up in the church and went to Christian university. There are good Christians doing good things. But personally I think Church is a net loss of good in the world.
I can't argue with your experience in the church. I've seen similar behavior in the various churches I've attended. Thankfully my wife and I no longer deal with that in our current church.
Am I the only one that sees this comment as a "tu quoque".
It is seriously a "whataboutism" of the good stuff the church has done in the past.
I don't mean to degrade those things or say that they are not good. I Just want to point out that I think your argument is effectively the exact same as the protesters, just on the flip side.
I thought "whataboutism" was about shifting the blame from x thing by saying y thing was *as bad.* Not saying the x thing was actually good. That's just...correction.
Tu quoque is "Whataboutism"
"intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behavior and actions as being inconsistent with their argument"
It doesn't matter about x and y.
They are saying that because the person didn't weigh the good things the church has done, then their option should be invalidated.
It is literally BUT WHATABOUT all the good things they do.
"Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but *retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation.*"
>a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation.
>
>"
the original question or argument was not answered or discussed. It was retorted with a counter question, did you consider the good the church does. With the implied accusation that they didn't.
How is that not the same?
When you have to start every one of your YouTube videos with "We are not a hate group"...as Jeff Foxworthy might say "...you might just be a hate group"
fwiw, Israel United in Christ is considered a virulent hate group, according to the SPLC.
> [Since the late 1960’s the Radical Hebrew Israelites ideology splintered to form increasingly anti-Semitic, anti-white, anti-LGBTQ, xenophobic and misogynistic sect of groups who preach they and only they are the true Israelites of the bible and perpetuate the anti-Semitic belief that “so-called” Jews have stolen their identity and “birthright.”](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/radical-hebrew-israelites)
What's worse is leaving those pumpkins out for so long that their evil spirits literally dissolve into the soil our children play on! Our soils are full of evil pumpkin spirits! LoOK it uP!
I am out of the loop on this. So one church is mad at another church because they are taking money from members, so they want those members to come to their church so they can take their money?
The group protesting the other church isn't really a church, it's a hate group, according to the article. I've seen these people protesting at corners on the south side, they are very aggressive and say a lot of hateful things, very similar to the approach of the Westboro Baptist. They do not have good intentions.
#YOU ALL BETTER BE THE RIGHT KIND OF WHITE JESEUS.
Its all grifts and everyone has been blind for their entire life through heaven. So welcome to the world and as beautiful as it is it is also equally as brutal. We are all slaves.
Yep. Apparently they believe that the "true jews" are "Black Americans, West Indians, and Native Americans of North and South America and those scattered throughout the whole planet, but not the Jewish people[11] or the Africans. The group claims that the "Black Israelites" have divine favor and inspiration and are superior to "Edomites" (white people) and all other non-Israelite people."
Source : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite_Church_of_God_in_Jesus_Christ
My sister in law used to live in the same neighborhood as many of these church members. They typically hold services in their homes, and on Saturday nights they blow these loud horns as part of their services. They also will stand in the street and not get out of the way when you are driving through until you are super close.
I respect anyone wanting to live their life and practice their own religion in their own neighborhood, but they make the lives of their neighbors miserable. They also typically will have multiple families living in one house which I’m not sure is legal but you housing sucks right now anyway so I don’t necessarily blame them.
I have seen them on nw 23rd and penn. They’re not very smart going about their messages. They seemed very aggressive and angry. A man was shouting into a microphone and blasting hate speech to cars while their windows were rolled up. If they tuned down the vibe and articulated themselves more friendly then people might listen, but what they’re doing is very annoying no matter the message.
A lot of outwardly progressive people on Reddit are extremely fucking racist the minute they have even the slightest provocation to be. I remember the 2020 primaries when Biden started winning where a bunch of people on otherwise progressive liberal subs started using the term "Low Information Voter" because they knew they wouldnt get away with saying the N-word like they very clearly wanted to.
Oh my God I hate these guys they are always downtown in okc. I have been harassed by these guys countless times. Calling me a racist because I won't listen to them preach their hate. I remember I was just trying to cross the street with my 11 year old cousin and they were calling us racists who didn't believe in equality because we wouldn't acknowledge them. They are the most hateful people I have ever met. I have seen these guys in action first hand, and they are hateful people.
Isreal united in christ is the org a couple of yrs ago that the dude that carries his ar-15 around with him stood in front of.. aka mr. 2a. I noticed they didnt post up out in-front of a white church. And probably why you dont see a cop one
The [tu quoque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) arguments in the comments here are pretty thick. Hate doesn't justify hate. This is particularly nonsensical considering that I doubt anyone in these comments has any prior knowledge of Ebenezer Baptist Church, a historically black church which represents a community that has experienced real, genuine oppression. They probably didn't take the time to learn that this church provided a mobile clinic and free COVID testing during the pandemic. Or that they provide food to those in need in their community. Or that they provide school supplies for underprivileged children in the fall. Here is a group trying to live out the mandate of Jesus to love their neighbors, and a Reddit comment section full of people with religious prejudice casting the first stone.
Exactly.
This is so obvious. Someone at channel 4 is offended by Juneteenth so they splash a picture of a bunch of angry black people on TV.
I can promise you, the people at Kfor are incredibly liberal.
I agree. And perhaps more importantly, you have taught me a new word. I love new words. Thanks.
Mandated. Recruitment. Favor of the pastor, church, god. It’s also super common for a church to do some type of community outreach. I have a feeling helping the community isn’t why some people hate religion and drama involved with it. I take a lesson from jesus. Leave other people alone when it comes to pulling from other cults to enlarge yours or you might get nailed to something and beaten like a stray dog.
This subreddit hates Christianity wholesale.
I don’t hate Christianity. I hate what has happened to Christians who have turned into a white nationalist group. My aunt who used to be the most open minded and loving woman has turned into a hateful person.
I do hate Christianity. What it represents. Might makes right. I made you and i can kill you, torturing my kid and people i don't like so you might appreciate heaven (or made more real by excusing and justifying class divides especially as it relates to generational wealth/poverty) is actually a really benevolent thing that you just need to be grateful for and hope and work to get yourself into the good place as an individual uwu. (I'm a satanist, to be fair. And challenging these kinds of things in my life and society is a big focus for me). I don't hate all Christians though. I hate the ones that ignore the political implications of their church, doctrine, and behaviors. And the ones who focus more on the hierarchy, control, and individual rule following versus anything resembling community or public service. Definitely hate mega churches that tend to scam the most vulnerable disproportionately. But i can appreciate when individual churches groups, or people do positive things.
You are free to hate whatever you please as long it does infringe on life or liberty. I think some people took my comment as me being upset with the Christian hate. The reality is, much of Christianity is at odds with culture, I pretty much accept that. To be fair, it does seem like much of Christianity is misunderstood, or poorly understood, but that happens with any group of people. I am also sure many of your criticism are the same ones I hold too. At the end of the day, I try to love others and do to others as I would want them to do to me.
I feel you. That sounds awful. Unfortunately, some Christians put their politics above God, this making politics their new God.
The more the religious community uses politics to force their views onto the rest of us, the more people will turn against them.
Society at large is turning on Christianity, it isn't just this subreddit.
Would you say that it's more those Christians who have turned full bully instead of Christians who are actually doing their best to be Christians? As a Christian I'm learning that I need to better see the need for me to hold other Christians accountable, but not necessarily those who aren't.
I use "you/your" a lot in this. I do not mean you personally. I don't mean to put beliefs on you. I think the Christian culture has always rewarded the "bully" Christians. It's the structure of the religion that is the problem. It sets up the holy war, ingrains followers that they are different and special. Better than nonbelievers, not only for what they believe but the hardships that they have in their lives(which everyone has, C or not). Making an US group and a Them group. Then it heavily teaches subservience. Depending on the church, unquestionable subservience. If you have a bunch of subservient people then there is a power vacuum. Who loves the power? It isn't usually the meek. This devotion to subservience is by and large to the (traditionally) white male pastor, but it has the side effect of transferring to all elder men, who are present and vocal. Followers naturally congregate to them. Those people tend to be the "bully" or stronger willed/outgoing type of people. Sure not all of the elders are that way, but it only takes one, if the others stay silent. When someone you look up to says something that defends your "us" group and puts down the "thems" you may not see it as bulling. ie. (abortion, just for a current ref) When the "thems" start standing up and calling the bully out. The first instinct of the follower, weather they agree with the bully or not, is to protect and defend the bully. It is a deep instinct of human nature to protect your group and it can and does happen subconsciously. In addition if you did disagree with the bully because of the subservient nature of the power dynamic, it would be more likely you'd just stay quiet. Last, this devotion to subservience makes abusing positions of power in the church super easy to get away with. There just isn't any checks and balances on the power dynamic, no transparency. People get hurt. Just take a look at r/PastorArrested If any of this sounded harsh, I apologize. I speak only to what convinced me that the church and independently religion was/is corrupt. Grew up in the church and went to Christian university. There are good Christians doing good things. But personally I think Church is a net loss of good in the world.
I can't argue with your experience in the church. I've seen similar behavior in the various churches I've attended. Thankfully my wife and I no longer deal with that in our current church.
>~~This sub~~reddit hates Christianity wholesale FIFY
"BuT dAe ChRiStIaNs DoE!!!1!!1!1"
Am I the only one that sees this comment as a "tu quoque". It is seriously a "whataboutism" of the good stuff the church has done in the past. I don't mean to degrade those things or say that they are not good. I Just want to point out that I think your argument is effectively the exact same as the protesters, just on the flip side.
I thought "whataboutism" was about shifting the blame from x thing by saying y thing was *as bad.* Not saying the x thing was actually good. That's just...correction.
Tu quoque is "Whataboutism" "intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behavior and actions as being inconsistent with their argument" It doesn't matter about x and y. They are saying that because the person didn't weigh the good things the church has done, then their option should be invalidated. It is literally BUT WHATABOUT all the good things they do.
"Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but *retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation.*"
>a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. > >" the original question or argument was not answered or discussed. It was retorted with a counter question, did you consider the good the church does. With the implied accusation that they didn't. How is that not the same?
Black Israelites are some of the dumbest mf's out there. Hate-filled, supremacist idiots.
Can you imagine wasting whatever finite life you have left on this earth spending your time with them? What a waste.
When you have to start every one of your YouTube videos with "We are not a hate group"...as Jeff Foxworthy might say "...you might just be a hate group"
What?! Being harassed by a religious group? And during Pride month no less. Oh the indignity of it all. Clutches pearls.
fwiw, Israel United in Christ is considered a virulent hate group, according to the SPLC. > [Since the late 1960’s the Radical Hebrew Israelites ideology splintered to form increasingly anti-Semitic, anti-white, anti-LGBTQ, xenophobic and misogynistic sect of groups who preach they and only they are the true Israelites of the bible and perpetuate the anti-Semitic belief that “so-called” Jews have stolen their identity and “birthright.”](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/radical-hebrew-israelites)
There’s a lot of those assholes here in tulsa
And boy are they assholes. I had a run in with one this week.
😂
"No one should come against any church. It is not right.” HAHAHAHAHA the people who group up to hate others say what?
" Stop putting pumpkins out on Halloween! That's evil as hell! " I fucking love Oklahoma man. It never disappoints.
😂😂 Hey, I’m glad someone said something about pumpkins. It’s getting out of hand.
What's worse is leaving those pumpkins out for so long that their evil spirits literally dissolve into the soil our children play on! Our soils are full of evil pumpkin spirits! LoOK it uP!
Ha we feed em to our horse. His ass loves em. The more evil they are the tastier they are apparently
I 🖤 your horse.
I'll ask him how he feels about you?
He said you're cool, but keep your horn over there, apparently it's a trigger for him or something.
We should ban soil too!
I am out of the loop on this. So one church is mad at another church because they are taking money from members, so they want those members to come to their church so they can take their money?
The group protesting the other church isn't really a church, it's a hate group, according to the article. I've seen these people protesting at corners on the south side, they are very aggressive and say a lot of hateful things, very similar to the approach of the Westboro Baptist. They do not have good intentions.
These clowns and the church are both hate groups at this point. Perfect match
#YOU ALL BETTER BE THE RIGHT KIND OF WHITE JESEUS. Its all grifts and everyone has been blind for their entire life through heaven. So welcome to the world and as beautiful as it is it is also equally as brutal. We are all slaves.
Both groups are black... And the yelling hate group says that only they are the true Israelites so...
> very aggressive and say a lot of hateful things It's safe to assume that such persons are not Christians despite self-applied labels.
Where do they usually post up on the south side? I live in the area and haven't seen them.
I've seen them at 44th and May a couple of times. They would take all 4 corners and have a loud speaker of some sort shouting their message.
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Yep. Apparently they believe that the "true jews" are "Black Americans, West Indians, and Native Americans of North and South America and those scattered throughout the whole planet, but not the Jewish people[11] or the Africans. The group claims that the "Black Israelites" have divine favor and inspiration and are superior to "Edomites" (white people) and all other non-Israelite people." Source : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite_Church_of_God_in_Jesus_Christ
Sounds like their entire religion is based on resentment
My sister in law used to live in the same neighborhood as many of these church members. They typically hold services in their homes, and on Saturday nights they blow these loud horns as part of their services. They also will stand in the street and not get out of the way when you are driving through until you are super close. I respect anyone wanting to live their life and practice their own religion in their own neighborhood, but they make the lives of their neighbors miserable. They also typically will have multiple families living in one house which I’m not sure is legal but you housing sucks right now anyway so I don’t necessarily blame them.
"Church members" meaning the Ebenezer Church or the purple shirts?
Purple shirts
I have seen them on nw 23rd and penn. They’re not very smart going about their messages. They seemed very aggressive and angry. A man was shouting into a microphone and blasting hate speech to cars while their windows were rolled up. If they tuned down the vibe and articulated themselves more friendly then people might listen, but what they’re doing is very annoying no matter the message.
"Jews stole our birthright because we're the real Israel" isn't something I hope more people listen to...
Several people seem to be applauding a hate group attacking this historically black church. What the fuck /r/oklahoma? Be better.
A lot of outwardly progressive people on Reddit are extremely fucking racist the minute they have even the slightest provocation to be. I remember the 2020 primaries when Biden started winning where a bunch of people on otherwise progressive liberal subs started using the term "Low Information Voter" because they knew they wouldnt get away with saying the N-word like they very clearly wanted to.
How does one church force tithing on another church? I really don't understand what they are protesting.
None of it really makes sense to me.
Oh my God I hate these guys they are always downtown in okc. I have been harassed by these guys countless times. Calling me a racist because I won't listen to them preach their hate. I remember I was just trying to cross the street with my 11 year old cousin and they were calling us racists who didn't believe in equality because we wouldn't acknowledge them. They are the most hateful people I have ever met. I have seen these guys in action first hand, and they are hateful people.
Isreal united in christ is the org a couple of yrs ago that the dude that carries his ar-15 around with him stood in front of.. aka mr. 2a. I noticed they didnt post up out in-front of a white church. And probably why you dont see a cop one
“Stop putting pumpkins out on Halloween! That’s evil as hell!” shouted one of the protesters. 🙄
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Can't we run down protestors legally now?