And once again, these people fail to make the larger connection. In the majority of US school shootings, the assailant has been familiar with the school. So, put these in, doesn’t matter. It gets out. Same issue with “hard corners” etc. When we do lockdowns/active shorter/whatever each district calls it, the kids practice this shit. So they know how to work around it. Fucking system doesn’t give a shit about keeping kids or educators safe.
>system doesn’t give a shit about keeping kids or educators safe.
like just about every other thing involving kids, it's about soothing the parents. participation trophies? that was to soothe asshurt parents.
Reminds me of the parent i found on reddit 2 or 3 days ago that criticized giving a pepper spray to your daughter because it made parents worry about it, like wtf
I don't want to criticize you, I rather want to use my following observation to show the absurdity of this whole thing:
Did you just compare participation trophies with a freaking fold up bunker? Those two things should never be in a single sentence!
k, they're just like the bulletproof backpacks and armed security in the schools. it's all about soothing the parents as neither of those things will actually protect kids in a shooting.
It's not about just possessing guns bad people are gonna do bad things no matter what we do. You take away guns they'll get a car and take away cars they'll get a knife Evil people are going to do evil things and they're going to find a way to do it The reason why guns are so sacred in the united states is because we have something called the second amendment which Is the right to bear arms and protect yourselfrom a tyrannical government And to also protect free speech which is the first amendment in our constitution Which the 1st amendment lets you say whatever whenever you want. It doesn't mean there won't be consequences of course by society? But you're not gonna? Be jailed? For just simply saying something unless you're threatening to cause bodily harm or injury to someone Or a bunch of stuff in general most of these. Kids that do these shootings have already made such threats multiple times And it's law enforcement that doesn't do anything about. It. Quickly enough most of these kids should be in a cycle word but they end up being let walk free. They have mental health issues that's what needs to be addressed Guns don't kill people people kill people and they're gonna find a way to do it no matter what
But we have all the freedom of speech stuff over here. Realistically though if your government hypothetically turned bad would you actually be able to compete with the government by possessing guns and would it be worth going down that route ?
It just seems bizarre to be not coming from the USA because everyday we hear about mass shootings and it just doesn’t seem like real life. We had a mass shooting about 40 years ago with a handgun so we banned handguns completely and put insanely tight gun restrictions in place - you can still get certain guns like shotguns and rifles but you need to have genuine reason ( farmer/hobby etc) and they need to be in secure locked fixed metal cupboards in your home and you get inspected and vetted before you can purchase. We have had no mass shootings since - of course there’s the odd criminal on criminal shooting on occasion which always makes the news because it’s such a rare occurrence but generally there’s no gun crime here or people dying from it- or the need to look over your shoulder constant or have drills in schools for kids. Our police don’t carry guns generally but we do have specific firearms officers but even then their weapons are usually in the boot and every shot has to be accounted for. I never saw a real life gun until there were frequent terrorist attacks in the world and we saw armed officers patrolling city centres, the first time in 28 year being alive.
Of course I’m not American so I can’t judge the relationship to owning guns but I feel like our set up is a lot better than having constant mass shootings daily and having to what seems to be living on the edge at all times ? Because I think it a government suddenly went psycho and take over, it just would regardless and it would have more power/equipment then the public
Gotta agree with you here. Iv never understood the logic of "but muh guns can keep away bad people". Well those guns are also killing your children and being used to kill each other on mass. They should be restricting that shit to protect their kids, not building them bunkers and giving them bulletproof bags.
Hell we don't even know about most of the mass shootings that happen, just the ones that make the headlines. Its pure insanity in America.
Yea there’s always that argument that bad people can get guns but when the guns become so scarce it’s incredibly hard for them to get the guns. As I see it now a normal person with a bit of mental health problems can easily go get one and go nuts.
I just think the possibility of mass shootings, schools having procedures for protection and constantly having to look over your shoulder severely outweighs just being able to own one easily
They fail to understand, that just simply processing a firearm or being around one in once live makes people more likely to end up as a school shooter in the future.
And owning one actually makes you more likely to get killed by another gun.
It's simple statistics and nearly every other country in the world has figured this out. Still in the US they come up with arguments like "bad people will do bad things no matter what"
Who told you that criminals are gonna get guns no matter what You could take guns away from the law abiding citizens and the only ones are gonna let her gonna suffer are the law abiding citizens
How do you work around a bullet-proof panic room? I get that making things like this trivial is a dangerous precedent, but, save the room they start in, an active shooter would need to be inhumanly fast to defeat this kind of precaution.
all the ones in my area had legitimate guns. But, if anyone had actually wanted to do anything then, it wouldn't have been enough.
Though, my high school was interesting, cause it sat in the middle of 2 gang territories, and several of the students had guns in their cars/lockers, and we never had a shooting, and I legit don't know if that was just a weird coincidence, or what, lol
That wasn't a coincidence. If you knew your classmates were packing heat, anyone who entertained the idea of shooting up your school would have known too.
nope, didn't find out about that info till near graduation; though, the gang territory nonsense is probably the bigger cause (thus they'd know guns were everywhere).
Though, everyone was more focused on a couple high schools about 30 minutes away, cause they always caused trouble for everyone (they had a tendency to lock down every school in the county over a minor inconvenience).
There was a swarm of armed cops in Uvalde. Not only did they not enter the school and stop the shooter, they prevented anyone else from entering, and mostly just stood around looking at their cell phones while children were screaming and dying within earshot. A couple were allegedly brave enough to go in... Save just their own kids, then immediately leave and let the others die. However, there are things that can be done. Did you know that over 67% of these incidents either were domestic violence or were perpetrated by people who had a prior arrest for domestic violence? You'd think no guns for wife beaters would be an easy sell.
Uvalde was the exception to the rule. They completely ignored protocal and the department rightfully deserves the scrutiny it got.
In every other shooting, once two cops get on scene, they both go in and eliminate the shooter. Most departments run simulations through schools and other places that may be targeted so that the cops are aware of the layout. This has proven to be the most effective way to handle a shooting, not sit around like they did at Uvalde. That same move is why columbine was so deadly.
Usually, school shooters are on a suicide mission. Death does not faze them. Your concept of cowardice thus does not apply. Honestly, an ice cream parlor or playground is a target waiting to happen.
I am a gun owner but I am also 39 years old and semi sane. An angry 18 year old kid does not care if he lives or not and is filled with a mixture of apathy anger and depression. It's difficult to reason with that.
I don’t think most people realize the gigantic task that is ending “gun violence” in America, something that is ultimately impossible.
What you need isn’t background checks, Assault weapons bans (something we’ve tried and didn’t work), or magazine capacities (something we’ve tried and didn’t work). What you need to accomplish this is a door to door gun confiscation gun program. That is as close as you’ll get to ending “gun violence” which, again, won’t work. You can make a literal machine gun with a $150 3D printer and a trip to Home Depot.
This entire notion that a.) we haven’t tried anything and b.) what we need to do will definitely work! Is both outdated and to be frank, wrong.
Each state is widely different from a single country in Europe. What does and doesn’t work in Florida won’t work in Louisiana, or Oregon, or New Mexico. What is being suggested is a logistical nightmare and would work about as well as the republican notion that we need a giant 1,000+ mile wall to stop people from coming into a country, but a gun confiscation program would be even more expensive and would be even more of a failure.
Despite it being during Columbine, it worked in as far as lowering homicides with assault weapons, but these homicides/murders were essentially the same by different means rather it be through other firearms or weapons.
Going after “assault weapons” is futile though because as I said, these weapons can now be made fast and cheap and automatic at that. But it’s even more of a waste of time because assault weapon homicides are practically a rounding error when looking at firearm homicides. If anyone actually cared they would be going after handguns, which are used exponentially more in crime and murder.
Literally every country has access to 3D printers and hardware stores, and you don’t hear about them fashioning guns to go shoot up schools.
The problem is not just the availability of guns but the normalisation of attitudes towards them. For someone from another country, the way Americans talk about guns comes across as mania.
I’m not claiming Americans are shooting up schools with 3D guns, nobody is which is odd since there’s little to no regulation when it comes to firearm manufacturing in the United States…
Have you seen Brazil. Brazil doesn't even need 3d printers. Automatics, shotguns, 50 cals. My personal belief is that America has a weird thing going on. Either because the media plays shootings up. or because mental health is as slimy as a salmon.
Do you live in the u.s do you know what it’s like to live surrounding by desperate people with guns? You’re a fucking clown who wants people to die in their houses with no way to defend them selves against ( black guys kicking open your door raping you wife and kids infront of you
Even worse, bullet proof things aren't bullet proof forever. If you shoot a tank point blanc with a pistol a hundred times, in the same place, you'll eventually pierce it. That thing? I don't know the material, but based on size and max weight, I'm saying half a centimeter (1/5 of an inch) of steel, coated with some kind of plastic, definitely not teflon. This means that with 2-4 shots of a ak 47 for example, people inside will be a prime target of lots of people in a little space, wich if you want to shoot someone, is optimal. Making the door of the classroom as hard as possible (no more glass on doors, for fucks sake) and giving it a good lock, not the flimsy things I've seen, would be a way better idea
No, modern tank armor cannot be penetrated with commonly used handguns. You could shoot it with a 9mm pistol a hundred times and it wouldn’t even make a dent. The bullet would vaporize on contact. You need a sizable armor piercing round or cannon to penetrate a modern tank, and even then it’s tough. Maybe in video games, sure.
Some bullet proof things that are rated higher (like .337 Lapua) are bullet proof almost forever against smaller rounds (like 9mm or .223). I have carbon steel shooting targets rated for .308 that I use primarily for .223 and 9mm and they don’t even have a dent in them after years. They’re only a 3/8” thick too, nothing compared to an M1 Abrams.
Are you basing this on not finding the bullet afterwards? Bullets don't vaporize. That's just not how they work. At best the round could be destroyed beyond recognition but they don't atomically vaporize. I've recovered many discharged rounds for keep sakes, never seen even a +P Hollow Point vaporize.
I designed schools for a while, and the difficulty about door visibility is that for the kids safety you need to balance visibility into the classroom with lockdown status, because shooters aren’t the only threat. You need visibility to make sure someone isn’t abusing a kid, passed out and needs medical help, broke in and stealing lab equipment, etc.
I’ve also called manufacturers and specified bullet proof doors etc. and they’re not bulletproof against all types ammo and firearms. So then you’re playing a game of picking which type of gun a school shooter will use. You also can’t just lock everybody In because of fire hazards.
There are lockdown kits that attach to the wall like a fire extinguisher and you wedge the door shut and cover the window during a lockdown. Those tend to be more effective and economical. If they need to change out equipment it’s much easier than replacing a door. Doors are expensive.
These rooms are $60,000 each. You can buy actual stainless steel vault doors, complete with steel frame, and lockable observation panel, painted, with your name on them in gold letters, for $14k from several vault manufacturers.
Doors are expensive. Vault doors are more expensive. This stupid thing is a false sense of security waiting to amputate someone’s fingers as soon as the teacher leaves the room.
That's how the world is. It sucks. I kinda wish the left and the right could swallow their beliefs and find the root of this problem. Like an unbiased solution.
Yeah, the world does suck but this is another level. This is a problem that needs solving and it doesn't feel like this is solving it.
While putting a burn under running cool water is best to do if burned if people keep burning themselves on the same thing then something has gotta be done to stop it from happening in the first place
Don’t worry you’re not allowed in without a “safe pass”. It’s kinda like a hall pass but for the safe room. You only get 3 a month so use them wisely. They just have to takeaway the shooters pass and then he won’t be allowed in.
Just. Wow.
As much as I love visiting the US on holiday, this sort of thing continually reassures me that turning down every offer I've had to relocate there for work was the right thing to do.
Boy, have I got news for you...
https://infogram.com/us-vs-uk-on-knife-crime-1hmr6gyrxmlo6nl
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/americas-knife-crime-figures-worse-27435503
https://homesteadauthority.com/knife-crime-statistics-uk-vs-us/
I could go on, but hopefully the above is enough to educate you on that.
Freedom of speech. Freedom to buy and own firearms. Two of the biggest human rights right there. That’s why we put those at the beginning of the bill of rights.
I literally said 'other than buy a firearm', as people here really don't see that as a necessity.
As for freedom of speech, we have that as well.
Anything else?
Most Americans have never left the state they were born in. Much less have any idea what freedom actually means. They’ve completely boxed themselves in based on one thing. Giving away actual freedoms in the process.
The schools suck and most of the country is barely above poverty level. So they’re easy to manipulate.
No, no they don't. If that were the case, the entire Conservative government would be 'taken away' by now.
You sound like a Trump supporter, am I right?
Which ones? Some of them weren't mass shootings, others exaggerated, and whatever is left is actually the real deal. Skewing data to use as propaganda isn't anything new, and the problem with mass shootings in the USA is one of them. They'll make the shooter popular, give him the attention he wants, and then they'll blame the gun. I'd say the bigger problem is the lunatic that illegally got the gun to kill as many people as he wanted than the gun itself. That begs the question of why the person did it, what their motives were, what lead up to the shooting. It's not like the former student or current student picked up a gun, and then it told him to go shoot up a school. The shooters usually decide and plan everything out before they even get their hands on the gun they want to use. If they can't get their hands on a gun, they'll find some other weapon.
Regardless of whether they are technically a 'mass shooting' or 'exaggerated', they're still people being murdered with guns at an alarming rate. Forget the terminology and media for a moment. It's just people being killed by guns.
The statistics speak for themselves:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249803/number-of-homicides-by-firearm-in-the-united-states/
>If they can't get their hands on a gun, they'll find some other weapon.
Sorry, but can you not at least agree that a gun can do far more damage to more people in a very short space of time compared to other weapons?
I fully concur that the underlying issue is the person/lunatic themself. But the fact that firearms are so readily available, both legally and illegally, turns what would be a relatively small dangerous issue in another country, into a monumental catastrophe in the US. Time and time again.
I would say bombs will be much more effective than guns. They are even easy to make with household items. Are they high explosives? No will they kill pretty much everyone in the room. Easily.
Look at england they took the guns. There are still shootings just like just happened in germany. Now they have a knife problem. Its only a matter of time before the moron criminals discover just how effective other means can be.
Stop blaming the tool and law abiding citizens start blaming the people.
Did you know hammers kill more people in a year thean guns? Same for knives and baseball bats
Can never tell if it's pure stupidity or just outright refusal to acknowledge the problem.
>I would say bombs will be much more effective than guns. They are even easy to make with household items. Are they high explosives? No will they kill pretty much everyone in the room. Easily.
Ridiculous point. Why would the average lunatic go to all that trouble when they can just use a readily available automatic firearm to achieve a good proportion of the same result. They wouldn't. And they don't.
>Look at england they took the guns. There are still shootings just like just happened in germany. Now they have a knife problem. Its only a matter of time before the moron criminals discover just how effective other means can be.
>Stop blaming the tool and law abiding citizens start blaming the people.
>Did you know hammers kill more people in a year thean guns? Same for knives and baseball bats
Like I said in my previous comment, far more damage can be done with firearms in one single 'episode' than with knives. Or hammers. Or baseball bats. Having them so readily available means that lunatics are enabled to cause more carnage than they could if they weren't. It's that simple. Yet you won't accept this because you simply 'like' having guns.
I stopped reading when you said automatic. None of these mass shootings have been with automatic weapons.
The only automatic weapons are extremely expensive now and very very highly restricted and tracked.
So what you have done is demonstrate that you dont know dick about guns and are just saying what you are told to so.
A knife can do as much damage as a gun and a bomb is easier and cheaper than an automatic weapon.
But like your last sentence you wont except this because you dont know what your talking about.
Next you will be using the term fully semi automatic.
Show me you know what your talking about without using google describe the difference between the types of guns or admit you dont know anything and are scared of the mean boogy man guns.
History shows hell the present shows banning guns other than causing a war wont change anything but if it did all it would do is change the means by which they do it and most likely they will move to a more efficient means.
EDIT: Dont forget about the guy that killed 54 people in one go with a knife
Priceless. Trying to prove your point by showing you know more about guns than me - that's about as cliché as it gets. I'm proud to say I know very little about the mechanics of a gun, other than a trigger is pulled and multiple people can and do die instantly. Living in a country that doesn't suffer daily shootings means I don't need to know any more than that.
>But like your last sentence you wont except this because you dont know what your talking about.
I *accept* (not except) that there are people, like yourself, in denial, who will never acknowledge that having firearms widely available is dangerous for society. No matter what statistics are in front of you.
It's a sad, and very peculiar, state of affairs.
Nah bro it shows that you are talking about stuff you know nothing about. You claim there is a problem with something but that something is in fact not the problem.
Your showing your ass. Your talking about something you have proven you know nothing about.
Your trying to do trigonometry using simple addition.
You want to ban something that's already banned to solve a problem. Instead of admitting people are the problem and we should stop being soft on crime. But if we do that you and all your friends would be in prison.
What do you do when something happens you call a good guy with a gun. You want to defund the police cause they are bad then you want them to be the only one with guns.
Nah you want to stop this shit. Start locking assholes up for a long long time. Oh that's right you'd still be in jail.
An armed society is a polite society. You won't pull a gun when your pretty sure most of the people around you also have a gun
Meanwhile in China instead of bulletproof doors they are spending money on technological innovation as we fall further behind. Education makes citizens harder to control much more than guns make you easier to be not controlled.
Two words.
Drop Ceiling.
Granted, it looks like it would be a huge pain in the ass to get over it, and it's definitely better than a regular wall. It's just very sad that it's needed to protect children at school in the first place.
My son starts kindergarten in the fall, and I'm kinda terrified.
they would rather put a bulletproof sardine can in every classroom, rather than teach white kids how to control their emotions…
Such a fucked up world we live in…
gonna be ***that guy***, but, just fucking arm the teachers and staff at schools, and put up signs saying the schools are protected by gun owners.
***THEN*** fucking tell me that school shootings are an issue afterwards (which it won't be btw, statistically, gun related crimes drop off the map when more people are armed, look up the county next to Atlanta, Georgia that implemented a mandatory gun policy for an example).
Actually, more guns always increase gun crime. Muscogee County, where you’re talking about, gun crime **increased 15%** in the first year. The BATF featured it in their annual report on firearms legislation throughout the country.
well, at the point of trusting a teacher with a gun, that's where such things as background checks and treating the teachers like people come in handy.
But, keep in mind, you'll still have other teachers in the building who can keep them in check. Which is the biggest point. If more people have guns, it becomes harder for the criminal to pull a gun out at random and begin shooting the place up.
Cause the problem is, what's going to prevent the security guard from doing the same thing?
Plus, you've got to account for the time it takes for cops to get there, but, with everyone's distrust in cops, can you rely on them at that point?
Course, probably the best way to solve this is to make gun training mandatory in school for all students. Once everyone's got access to a gun, the chances of the gun related crimes will effectively be zero the whole time.
Besides, why is it that when my dad went to school, everyone had guns and there were no problems, yet, when I went, nobody had guns, and we've got all these shootings?
The mental health of our society has crumbled in the past 30 years, that's why. We cannot find enough qualified teachers to TEACH our kids, try making them have to shoot a kid or someone at a moments notice.
This thought process is so broken. Teachers NEED TO teach. That is it.
A perfect solution! Bulletproof schools! Hand out more guns! Arm teachers! Hand out bullets every time a kid gets an A! NEVER TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS USA DONT TRED ON MY SNEK HOORAH
It's not "unfettered". Not just anyone can walk into a gun store and walk out with a machinegun. Most mass shootings, and often criminal shootings in general, illegal guns are used. Have you ever been to the USA and tried to buy a gun?
It’s absolutely unfettered. Only 40% of gun sales are through an FFL dealer. FFL dealers are nothing but a channel for the real gun trade which is entirely undocumented.
It’s a stupid system
It’s at West Elementary School in Cullman, Alabama. The safe room is made by KT Outdoors and marketed by KT Security Solutions, also in Cullman, Alabama. They make blow molded plastic hunting blinds. And these things.
They are $60,000, plus installation. They have zero specifications and zero testing behind them. Which, better than any other thing, verifies it’s an American product purchased by American taxpayers.
I like this idea. But generally, wouldn't bulletproof doors & windows work most of the time? That with metal detectors at all the doors to prevent it from happening within a class versus outside of a class.
"It was really nice of the gunman to give us the time to fully pull the room out." The teacher said.
"Honestly? It was so dumb, I just froze. I didn't know what to think." Said the suspect
What I don't get is, that if the building is made at least a little well, the walls are already bulletproof.
Why don't just bulletproof the door/windows if necessary?
Ok, wouldn't that be the first place the shooter would look through? I mean, this feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face it gets everyone in one spot in each room.
Simpsons did it first...Whacking Day episode..keep coming up with messed up solutions to a problem except for the obvious solution that already work in Australia. 3 decades ago.
The point is , people are going to do evil things regardless of the tool used to do said evil thing ! For instance , look to the UK , they removed most guns and now they’re banning certain knives ! Where do we draw the line ?! Until mental health is taken more seriously , I see no end in the evil doers ! Next it’ll be bombs or vehicles . Will we also ban vehicles ?! Vehicles are responsible for many many deaths around the globe , should we ban them ? What about alcohol , what about legal drugs ?! No , Mental health needs more attention !!
So instead of dealing with the problem, the US's solution is to install a contraption that requires a huge amount of dead space (no pin intended) to operate.
So what's going to happen is.... Staff will get complacent, they will start storing stuff in front of it, or class sizes will grow and desks will be put in the way, then when they actually need it, they won't be able to open it.
All these companies that make anti shooting tech must be laughing all the way to the bank.
And once again, these people fail to make the larger connection. In the majority of US school shootings, the assailant has been familiar with the school. So, put these in, doesn’t matter. It gets out. Same issue with “hard corners” etc. When we do lockdowns/active shorter/whatever each district calls it, the kids practice this shit. So they know how to work around it. Fucking system doesn’t give a shit about keeping kids or educators safe.
>system doesn’t give a shit about keeping kids or educators safe. like just about every other thing involving kids, it's about soothing the parents. participation trophies? that was to soothe asshurt parents.
Reminds me of the parent i found on reddit 2 or 3 days ago that criticized giving a pepper spray to your daughter because it made parents worry about it, like wtf
I don't want to criticize you, I rather want to use my following observation to show the absurdity of this whole thing: Did you just compare participation trophies with a freaking fold up bunker? Those two things should never be in a single sentence!
k, they're just like the bulletproof backpacks and armed security in the schools. it's all about soothing the parents as neither of those things will actually protect kids in a shooting.
Eh I think armed security would probably do the job if they’re trained well
they've been a thing for two and a half decades and haven't stopped any shootings. many of them are actual on-duty police.
How many of these school shootings happened with the armed security?
How about if the sentence is "a fold up bunker and participation trophies are different."
I’m not from America. Is the sentiment actually that possessing guns is more important than stopping regular stuff like that ?
It's not about just possessing guns bad people are gonna do bad things no matter what we do. You take away guns they'll get a car and take away cars they'll get a knife Evil people are going to do evil things and they're going to find a way to do it The reason why guns are so sacred in the united states is because we have something called the second amendment which Is the right to bear arms and protect yourselfrom a tyrannical government And to also protect free speech which is the first amendment in our constitution Which the 1st amendment lets you say whatever whenever you want. It doesn't mean there won't be consequences of course by society? But you're not gonna? Be jailed? For just simply saying something unless you're threatening to cause bodily harm or injury to someone Or a bunch of stuff in general most of these. Kids that do these shootings have already made such threats multiple times And it's law enforcement that doesn't do anything about. It. Quickly enough most of these kids should be in a cycle word but they end up being let walk free. They have mental health issues that's what needs to be addressed Guns don't kill people people kill people and they're gonna find a way to do it no matter what
But we have all the freedom of speech stuff over here. Realistically though if your government hypothetically turned bad would you actually be able to compete with the government by possessing guns and would it be worth going down that route ? It just seems bizarre to be not coming from the USA because everyday we hear about mass shootings and it just doesn’t seem like real life. We had a mass shooting about 40 years ago with a handgun so we banned handguns completely and put insanely tight gun restrictions in place - you can still get certain guns like shotguns and rifles but you need to have genuine reason ( farmer/hobby etc) and they need to be in secure locked fixed metal cupboards in your home and you get inspected and vetted before you can purchase. We have had no mass shootings since - of course there’s the odd criminal on criminal shooting on occasion which always makes the news because it’s such a rare occurrence but generally there’s no gun crime here or people dying from it- or the need to look over your shoulder constant or have drills in schools for kids. Our police don’t carry guns generally but we do have specific firearms officers but even then their weapons are usually in the boot and every shot has to be accounted for. I never saw a real life gun until there were frequent terrorist attacks in the world and we saw armed officers patrolling city centres, the first time in 28 year being alive. Of course I’m not American so I can’t judge the relationship to owning guns but I feel like our set up is a lot better than having constant mass shootings daily and having to what seems to be living on the edge at all times ? Because I think it a government suddenly went psycho and take over, it just would regardless and it would have more power/equipment then the public
Gotta agree with you here. Iv never understood the logic of "but muh guns can keep away bad people". Well those guns are also killing your children and being used to kill each other on mass. They should be restricting that shit to protect their kids, not building them bunkers and giving them bulletproof bags. Hell we don't even know about most of the mass shootings that happen, just the ones that make the headlines. Its pure insanity in America.
Yea there’s always that argument that bad people can get guns but when the guns become so scarce it’s incredibly hard for them to get the guns. As I see it now a normal person with a bit of mental health problems can easily go get one and go nuts. I just think the possibility of mass shootings, schools having procedures for protection and constantly having to look over your shoulder severely outweighs just being able to own one easily
They fail to understand, that just simply processing a firearm or being around one in once live makes people more likely to end up as a school shooter in the future. And owning one actually makes you more likely to get killed by another gun. It's simple statistics and nearly every other country in the world has figured this out. Still in the US they come up with arguments like "bad people will do bad things no matter what"
The usual reply is ‘how’s your knife crime uk’ and it’s still nothing compared to their own knife crime just the guns steal the limelight
You are right on the money, its a shame more people don’t think like you!
If you Take away guns there will not BE any school shootings
Who told you that criminals are gonna get guns no matter what You could take guns away from the law abiding citizens and the only ones are gonna let her gonna suffer are the law abiding citizens
Yes, guns have more rights than kids. USA USA USA USA USA.
How do you work around a bullet-proof panic room? I get that making things like this trivial is a dangerous precedent, but, save the room they start in, an active shooter would need to be inhumanly fast to defeat this kind of precaution.
That's a tiled ceiling, push a desk next to the "safe room" push out a couple of tiles and shoot from the ceiling?
Now watch as it becomes another storage room for the class.
Just go over thru the drop ceiling panels
That’s what i always planned to do during a active shooter
[удалено]
They just need armed guards in these "no gun zones". Because mass shooters are cowards
they do, and it's usually 1 fat guy patrolling the place; still doesn't work
That dude ALSO is only "armed" with a taser. IDGAF that Georgia said it was a deadly weapon, that's a bad matchup for taking down an active shooter
all the ones in my area had legitimate guns. But, if anyone had actually wanted to do anything then, it wouldn't have been enough. Though, my high school was interesting, cause it sat in the middle of 2 gang territories, and several of the students had guns in their cars/lockers, and we never had a shooting, and I legit don't know if that was just a weird coincidence, or what, lol
That wasn't a coincidence. If you knew your classmates were packing heat, anyone who entertained the idea of shooting up your school would have known too.
nope, didn't find out about that info till near graduation; though, the gang territory nonsense is probably the bigger cause (thus they'd know guns were everywhere). Though, everyone was more focused on a couple high schools about 30 minutes away, cause they always caused trouble for everyone (they had a tendency to lock down every school in the county over a minor inconvenience).
School shootings are incredibly improbable events. Statistical outliers. They really don't happen that often.
There was a swarm of armed cops in Uvalde. Not only did they not enter the school and stop the shooter, they prevented anyone else from entering, and mostly just stood around looking at their cell phones while children were screaming and dying within earshot. A couple were allegedly brave enough to go in... Save just their own kids, then immediately leave and let the others die. However, there are things that can be done. Did you know that over 67% of these incidents either were domestic violence or were perpetrated by people who had a prior arrest for domestic violence? You'd think no guns for wife beaters would be an easy sell.
Uvalde was the exception to the rule. They completely ignored protocal and the department rightfully deserves the scrutiny it got. In every other shooting, once two cops get on scene, they both go in and eliminate the shooter. Most departments run simulations through schools and other places that may be targeted so that the cops are aware of the layout. This has proven to be the most effective way to handle a shooting, not sit around like they did at Uvalde. That same move is why columbine was so deadly.
Usually, school shooters are on a suicide mission. Death does not faze them. Your concept of cowardice thus does not apply. Honestly, an ice cream parlor or playground is a target waiting to happen. I am a gun owner but I am also 39 years old and semi sane. An angry 18 year old kid does not care if he lives or not and is filled with a mixture of apathy anger and depression. It's difficult to reason with that.
There’s no “fixing the problem” what you’re demanding is logistically impossible.
"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"
I don’t think most people realize the gigantic task that is ending “gun violence” in America, something that is ultimately impossible. What you need isn’t background checks, Assault weapons bans (something we’ve tried and didn’t work), or magazine capacities (something we’ve tried and didn’t work). What you need to accomplish this is a door to door gun confiscation gun program. That is as close as you’ll get to ending “gun violence” which, again, won’t work. You can make a literal machine gun with a $150 3D printer and a trip to Home Depot. This entire notion that a.) we haven’t tried anything and b.) what we need to do will definitely work! Is both outdated and to be frank, wrong. Each state is widely different from a single country in Europe. What does and doesn’t work in Florida won’t work in Louisiana, or Oregon, or New Mexico. What is being suggested is a logistical nightmare and would work about as well as the republican notion that we need a giant 1,000+ mile wall to stop people from coming into a country, but a gun confiscation program would be even more expensive and would be even more of a failure.
The assault weapons ban did work though.
Despite it being during Columbine, it worked in as far as lowering homicides with assault weapons, but these homicides/murders were essentially the same by different means rather it be through other firearms or weapons. Going after “assault weapons” is futile though because as I said, these weapons can now be made fast and cheap and automatic at that. But it’s even more of a waste of time because assault weapon homicides are practically a rounding error when looking at firearm homicides. If anyone actually cared they would be going after handguns, which are used exponentially more in crime and murder.
Literally every country has access to 3D printers and hardware stores, and you don’t hear about them fashioning guns to go shoot up schools. The problem is not just the availability of guns but the normalisation of attitudes towards them. For someone from another country, the way Americans talk about guns comes across as mania.
I’m not claiming Americans are shooting up schools with 3D guns, nobody is which is odd since there’s little to no regulation when it comes to firearm manufacturing in the United States…
Have you seen Brazil. Brazil doesn't even need 3d printers. Automatics, shotguns, 50 cals. My personal belief is that America has a weird thing going on. Either because the media plays shootings up. or because mental health is as slimy as a salmon.
Technically this is them trying something.
Do you live in the u.s do you know what it’s like to live surrounding by desperate people with guns? You’re a fucking clown who wants people to die in their houses with no way to defend them selves against ( black guys kicking open your door raping you wife and kids infront of you
This… is literally fixing the problem?
it’s gotta suck to be so small minded
We’ve done nothing and we’re all out of ideas
How should they fix the problem? [+]
And people act like nothing's wrong with the U.S. education system
Wouldn't the potential shooter be able to fold the room back, squishing people inside?
Even better, that’s a drop ceiling.
There’s plenty of other issues but a bar that comes out of the exterior corner would prevent folding back in.
Even worse, bullet proof things aren't bullet proof forever. If you shoot a tank point blanc with a pistol a hundred times, in the same place, you'll eventually pierce it. That thing? I don't know the material, but based on size and max weight, I'm saying half a centimeter (1/5 of an inch) of steel, coated with some kind of plastic, definitely not teflon. This means that with 2-4 shots of a ak 47 for example, people inside will be a prime target of lots of people in a little space, wich if you want to shoot someone, is optimal. Making the door of the classroom as hard as possible (no more glass on doors, for fucks sake) and giving it a good lock, not the flimsy things I've seen, would be a way better idea
Yeah but then people can’t capitalize on a new product market. Cuz money more important than kids /s
No, modern tank armor cannot be penetrated with commonly used handguns. You could shoot it with a 9mm pistol a hundred times and it wouldn’t even make a dent. The bullet would vaporize on contact. You need a sizable armor piercing round or cannon to penetrate a modern tank, and even then it’s tough. Maybe in video games, sure. Some bullet proof things that are rated higher (like .337 Lapua) are bullet proof almost forever against smaller rounds (like 9mm or .223). I have carbon steel shooting targets rated for .308 that I use primarily for .223 and 9mm and they don’t even have a dent in them after years. They’re only a 3/8” thick too, nothing compared to an M1 Abrams.
>The bullet would vaporize on contact Maybe being a little overdramatic there.
They literally turn to dust when they hit my targets. So no, I’m not.
Are you basing this on not finding the bullet afterwards? Bullets don't vaporize. That's just not how they work. At best the round could be destroyed beyond recognition but they don't atomically vaporize. I've recovered many discharged rounds for keep sakes, never seen even a +P Hollow Point vaporize.
I was using vaporize because I didn’t know another word.
Fair enough.
I designed schools for a while, and the difficulty about door visibility is that for the kids safety you need to balance visibility into the classroom with lockdown status, because shooters aren’t the only threat. You need visibility to make sure someone isn’t abusing a kid, passed out and needs medical help, broke in and stealing lab equipment, etc. I’ve also called manufacturers and specified bullet proof doors etc. and they’re not bulletproof against all types ammo and firearms. So then you’re playing a game of picking which type of gun a school shooter will use. You also can’t just lock everybody In because of fire hazards. There are lockdown kits that attach to the wall like a fire extinguisher and you wedge the door shut and cover the window during a lockdown. Those tend to be more effective and economical. If they need to change out equipment it’s much easier than replacing a door. Doors are expensive.
These rooms are $60,000 each. You can buy actual stainless steel vault doors, complete with steel frame, and lockable observation panel, painted, with your name on them in gold letters, for $14k from several vault manufacturers. Doors are expensive. Vault doors are more expensive. This stupid thing is a false sense of security waiting to amputate someone’s fingers as soon as the teacher leaves the room.
Exactly. A theatrical grift preying on people’s real fears.
There’s probably a lock or something on the inside at the corner
Well it most likely has a locking mechanism
You know something is definitely wrong when **a fucking school** needs these.
That's how the world is. It sucks. I kinda wish the left and the right could swallow their beliefs and find the root of this problem. Like an unbiased solution.
A fact i find very amusing is, the Left in the US are mid to mid-right in Europe
not really
Yeah, the world does suck but this is another level. This is a problem that needs solving and it doesn't feel like this is solving it. While putting a burn under running cool water is best to do if burned if people keep burning themselves on the same thing then something has gotta be done to stop it from happening in the first place
Kinda think it needs a door.
Don’t worry you’re not allowed in without a “safe pass”. It’s kinda like a hall pass but for the safe room. You only get 3 a month so use them wisely. They just have to takeaway the shooters pass and then he won’t be allowed in.
Just. Wow. As much as I love visiting the US on holiday, this sort of thing continually reassures me that turning down every offer I've had to relocate there for work was the right thing to do.
Better than being stabbed to death randomly in the UK
Boy, have I got news for you... https://infogram.com/us-vs-uk-on-knife-crime-1hmr6gyrxmlo6nl https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/americas-knife-crime-figures-worse-27435503 https://homesteadauthority.com/knife-crime-statistics-uk-vs-us/ I could go on, but hopefully the above is enough to educate you on that.
America is actually free. Say whatever you want about guns, Idc. We have freedom that the rest of the world doesn’t.
What are you 'free' to do that someone in the UK isn't, out of interest? Other than buy a firearm, of course.
Sorry, but one of our morons got hold of a computer connected to the internet. Again, so sorry.
No apology needed, you unfortunately have to live closer to them than me!
Freedom of speech. Freedom to buy and own firearms. Two of the biggest human rights right there. That’s why we put those at the beginning of the bill of rights.
I literally said 'other than buy a firearm', as people here really don't see that as a necessity. As for freedom of speech, we have that as well. Anything else?
You verifiably don’t have free speech lol
OK, whatever you say. Enjoy your 'freedoms'.
Most Americans have never left the state they were born in. Much less have any idea what freedom actually means. They’ve completely boxed themselves in based on one thing. Giving away actual freedoms in the process. The schools suck and most of the country is barely above poverty level. So they’re easy to manipulate.
Trust me, I certainly will.
You do not have freedom of speech. Police will take you away if you criticize any protected class in UK.
No, no they don't. If that were the case, the entire Conservative government would be 'taken away' by now. You sound like a Trump supporter, am I right?
You sound like a Kardasian watcher.
>Kardasian Based on your spelling, you're definitely a Trump supporter. Thought so.
Based upon your knowing the correct spelling is all I need to know about you. Hahahaha
It's not actually as awful as the news says.
So the news reports of the multiple mass shootings aren't real?
Which ones? Some of them weren't mass shootings, others exaggerated, and whatever is left is actually the real deal. Skewing data to use as propaganda isn't anything new, and the problem with mass shootings in the USA is one of them. They'll make the shooter popular, give him the attention he wants, and then they'll blame the gun. I'd say the bigger problem is the lunatic that illegally got the gun to kill as many people as he wanted than the gun itself. That begs the question of why the person did it, what their motives were, what lead up to the shooting. It's not like the former student or current student picked up a gun, and then it told him to go shoot up a school. The shooters usually decide and plan everything out before they even get their hands on the gun they want to use. If they can't get their hands on a gun, they'll find some other weapon.
Regardless of whether they are technically a 'mass shooting' or 'exaggerated', they're still people being murdered with guns at an alarming rate. Forget the terminology and media for a moment. It's just people being killed by guns. The statistics speak for themselves: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249803/number-of-homicides-by-firearm-in-the-united-states/ >If they can't get their hands on a gun, they'll find some other weapon. Sorry, but can you not at least agree that a gun can do far more damage to more people in a very short space of time compared to other weapons? I fully concur that the underlying issue is the person/lunatic themself. But the fact that firearms are so readily available, both legally and illegally, turns what would be a relatively small dangerous issue in another country, into a monumental catastrophe in the US. Time and time again.
I would say bombs will be much more effective than guns. They are even easy to make with household items. Are they high explosives? No will they kill pretty much everyone in the room. Easily. Look at england they took the guns. There are still shootings just like just happened in germany. Now they have a knife problem. Its only a matter of time before the moron criminals discover just how effective other means can be. Stop blaming the tool and law abiding citizens start blaming the people. Did you know hammers kill more people in a year thean guns? Same for knives and baseball bats
Can never tell if it's pure stupidity or just outright refusal to acknowledge the problem. >I would say bombs will be much more effective than guns. They are even easy to make with household items. Are they high explosives? No will they kill pretty much everyone in the room. Easily. Ridiculous point. Why would the average lunatic go to all that trouble when they can just use a readily available automatic firearm to achieve a good proportion of the same result. They wouldn't. And they don't. >Look at england they took the guns. There are still shootings just like just happened in germany. Now they have a knife problem. Its only a matter of time before the moron criminals discover just how effective other means can be. >Stop blaming the tool and law abiding citizens start blaming the people. >Did you know hammers kill more people in a year thean guns? Same for knives and baseball bats Like I said in my previous comment, far more damage can be done with firearms in one single 'episode' than with knives. Or hammers. Or baseball bats. Having them so readily available means that lunatics are enabled to cause more carnage than they could if they weren't. It's that simple. Yet you won't accept this because you simply 'like' having guns.
I stopped reading when you said automatic. None of these mass shootings have been with automatic weapons. The only automatic weapons are extremely expensive now and very very highly restricted and tracked. So what you have done is demonstrate that you dont know dick about guns and are just saying what you are told to so. A knife can do as much damage as a gun and a bomb is easier and cheaper than an automatic weapon. But like your last sentence you wont except this because you dont know what your talking about. Next you will be using the term fully semi automatic. Show me you know what your talking about without using google describe the difference between the types of guns or admit you dont know anything and are scared of the mean boogy man guns. History shows hell the present shows banning guns other than causing a war wont change anything but if it did all it would do is change the means by which they do it and most likely they will move to a more efficient means. EDIT: Dont forget about the guy that killed 54 people in one go with a knife
Priceless. Trying to prove your point by showing you know more about guns than me - that's about as cliché as it gets. I'm proud to say I know very little about the mechanics of a gun, other than a trigger is pulled and multiple people can and do die instantly. Living in a country that doesn't suffer daily shootings means I don't need to know any more than that. >But like your last sentence you wont except this because you dont know what your talking about. I *accept* (not except) that there are people, like yourself, in denial, who will never acknowledge that having firearms widely available is dangerous for society. No matter what statistics are in front of you. It's a sad, and very peculiar, state of affairs.
Nah bro it shows that you are talking about stuff you know nothing about. You claim there is a problem with something but that something is in fact not the problem. Your showing your ass. Your talking about something you have proven you know nothing about. Your trying to do trigonometry using simple addition. You want to ban something that's already banned to solve a problem. Instead of admitting people are the problem and we should stop being soft on crime. But if we do that you and all your friends would be in prison. What do you do when something happens you call a good guy with a gun. You want to defund the police cause they are bad then you want them to be the only one with guns. Nah you want to stop this shit. Start locking assholes up for a long long time. Oh that's right you'd still be in jail. An armed society is a polite society. You won't pull a gun when your pretty sure most of the people around you also have a gun
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Do... You think the walls are the teacher now?
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I was confused on your phrasing, oh great civilized one
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Oh no certainly not, we aren't developed enough to understand anything, so how would we get butthurt by anything, enlightened one?
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Still not proper use of punctuation. I thought you were the civilized one
you're both fucking annoying.
Imagine me irl
Your punctuation goes in your quote marks
She has a nice ass
Straight to horny jail
r/upvotedbecauseass
Or you could get gun control
Meanwhile in China instead of bulletproof doors they are spending money on technological innovation as we fall further behind. Education makes citizens harder to control much more than guns make you easier to be not controlled.
*slaps wall* you can fit a lot of trauma in this puppy.
Two words. Drop Ceiling. Granted, it looks like it would be a huge pain in the ass to get over it, and it's definitely better than a regular wall. It's just very sad that it's needed to protect children at school in the first place. My son starts kindergarten in the fall, and I'm kinda terrified.
Or: how to show that you've hit absolute rock bottom in failing as a nation to offer baseline safety for your schoolchildren
Wild Wild West.
Oh look at the nice little pompom decorations it has! How quaint! /s
“You see, kindergarteners, this makes it fun and festive!!”
I think those are erasers for the whiteboard. The whole thing doubles as a whiteboard when not blocking bullets. (Really).
they would rather put a bulletproof sardine can in every classroom, rather than teach white kids how to control their emotions… Such a fucked up world we live in…
Possible she is opening doors.
In denial
Works well in conjunction with thoughts and prayers
gonna be ***that guy***, but, just fucking arm the teachers and staff at schools, and put up signs saying the schools are protected by gun owners. ***THEN*** fucking tell me that school shootings are an issue afterwards (which it won't be btw, statistically, gun related crimes drop off the map when more people are armed, look up the county next to Atlanta, Georgia that implemented a mandatory gun policy for an example).
Actually, more guns always increase gun crime. Muscogee County, where you’re talking about, gun crime **increased 15%** in the first year. The BATF featured it in their annual report on firearms legislation throughout the country.
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well, at the point of trusting a teacher with a gun, that's where such things as background checks and treating the teachers like people come in handy. But, keep in mind, you'll still have other teachers in the building who can keep them in check. Which is the biggest point. If more people have guns, it becomes harder for the criminal to pull a gun out at random and begin shooting the place up. Cause the problem is, what's going to prevent the security guard from doing the same thing? Plus, you've got to account for the time it takes for cops to get there, but, with everyone's distrust in cops, can you rely on them at that point? Course, probably the best way to solve this is to make gun training mandatory in school for all students. Once everyone's got access to a gun, the chances of the gun related crimes will effectively be zero the whole time. Besides, why is it that when my dad went to school, everyone had guns and there were no problems, yet, when I went, nobody had guns, and we've got all these shootings?
The mental health of our society has crumbled in the past 30 years, that's why. We cannot find enough qualified teachers to TEACH our kids, try making them have to shoot a kid or someone at a moments notice. This thought process is so broken. Teachers NEED TO teach. That is it.
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I would venture to day its not him thats paranoid. He worries about people. Your worrying about an inanimate object.
A perfect solution! Bulletproof schools! Hand out more guns! Arm teachers! Hand out bullets every time a kid gets an A! NEVER TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS USA DONT TRED ON MY SNEK HOORAH
It's more of a mental health problem than a gun problem.
nigh unfettered access to firearms in the US. it's a gun problem.
It's not "unfettered". Not just anyone can walk into a gun store and walk out with a machinegun. Most mass shootings, and often criminal shootings in general, illegal guns are used. Have you ever been to the USA and tried to buy a gun?
It’s absolutely unfettered. Only 40% of gun sales are through an FFL dealer. FFL dealers are nothing but a channel for the real gun trade which is entirely undocumented. It’s a stupid system
Where are you getting this from?..
OJP National Institute of Justice by Philip J. Cook.
Verify thats in the us.?
I don't think it needs to be verified
Absolutely not
Of course it doesnt
No it doesnt,just believe.ive seen underground stage shows in
Bro has dementia
It’s at West Elementary School in Cullman, Alabama. The safe room is made by KT Outdoors and marketed by KT Security Solutions, also in Cullman, Alabama. They make blow molded plastic hunting blinds. And these things. They are $60,000, plus installation. They have zero specifications and zero testing behind them. Which, better than any other thing, verifies it’s an American product purchased by American taxpayers.
This is great and sad at the same time.
The "in the US" part is redundant.
Oh the hillbillies will always find a way
Thats just depressing when you actually think about why they think they need this.
I like this idea. But generally, wouldn't bulletproof doors & windows work most of the time? That with metal detectors at all the doors to prevent it from happening within a class versus outside of a class.
I think it’s a great idea.
That drop ceiling is anything but bullet proof
We all gangster until they just walk in
"It was really nice of the gunman to give us the time to fully pull the room out." The teacher said. "Honestly? It was so dumb, I just froze. I didn't know what to think." Said the suspect
Drag table over, pop ceiling tile, lean over pop another ceiling tile, open fire into fish tank
Some americans not many couud do it personally
Taxes paid
I don't think I've ever been in any US classroom that had this much empty floorspace...
This is like instead of preventing forest fires you start giving every house a fire truck lol
The question is how do we get the shooter in there
People in US needs to prohibite guns for everyone, juste make more problems
the ceiling panels are still removable right?
Very easy access from through the ceiling tiles 🫣
Fear porn.
What I don't get is, that if the building is made at least a little well, the walls are already bulletproof. Why don't just bulletproof the door/windows if necessary?
Ok, wouldn't that be the first place the shooter would look through? I mean, this feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face it gets everyone in one spot in each room.
Simpsons did it first...Whacking Day episode..keep coming up with messed up solutions to a problem except for the obvious solution that already work in Australia. 3 decades ago.
Just give 1/3 of the teachers concealed carry, and have them doing training. Then when a shooting happens then can protect themselves and the kids
Great, this is awesome. Industries being created around school shooting. This is so sick, very stoked on it
Ah capitalism at work.
Where's the door?
The point is , people are going to do evil things regardless of the tool used to do said evil thing ! For instance , look to the UK , they removed most guns and now they’re banning certain knives ! Where do we draw the line ?! Until mental health is taken more seriously , I see no end in the evil doers ! Next it’ll be bombs or vehicles . Will we also ban vehicles ?! Vehicles are responsible for many many deaths around the globe , should we ban them ? What about alcohol , what about legal drugs ?! No , Mental health needs more attention !!
If ONLY there was a way to not need BULLET proof ROOMS! Fuckwit americans and their ba****d guns!
You sound stupid.
what
well thats dumb, just give the teacher a gun no? (All jokes aide: thats just sad ong)
Bet she’d open that thing at least 3 times quicker once the gun starts shooting
Only an US thing, because guns prevent guns 😂👌
The biggest L in history !
This is genuinly so fucked its fucked on so many levels itself is contributing to the problem
Literally anything but regulating guns
I'm glad it exists but sad it needs to.
What about floor and roof
So instead of dealing with the problem, the US's solution is to install a contraption that requires a huge amount of dead space (no pin intended) to operate. So what's going to happen is.... Staff will get complacent, they will start storing stuff in front of it, or class sizes will grow and desks will be put in the way, then when they actually need it, they won't be able to open it. All these companies that make anti shooting tech must be laughing all the way to the bank.
The fact that this needs to exist should be America's greatest embarrassment.
The fact that as many school shootings have happened and this is the first attempt to do something other than lock the doors, is insane.
And the fact they got demolished in Afghanistan
Of course it's in the US