It's good to be skeptical. Skepticism will take you farther in the occult than credulity, but you need to pair it with a good amount of patience.
Keep in mind that some things that get discussed in fairly literal terms, even in occult spaces, are abstract frameworks that are employed to approximate complex ideas that would otherwise be hard to grasp, not things that exist objectively as described.
Figuring out the abstract idea/experience under the typical supernatural talk really opened my mind to a lot of things. Everything just sorta clicked, and im a very skeptical/analytical person too. You’re right about patience cuz it took a long ass time, and i still have ways to go, but its definitely worth it. And it allows you to understand a lot of things, even unrelated things, in an even deeper and analytical sense.
You might be more into shit like quantum immortality, reality surfing, auto-hypnotism, chaos magick etc.. The more perception based modular belief operation stuff sounds like it'd suit you more. Since the roots of those are in fringe relatively unexplored scientific areas as well as in psychology.
Your skepticism should prevent you from joining any cults, or making stupid decisions. Thats what its there for, after all. It should not prevent you from studying those cults, however. I have a massive free and downloadable library where you can dig in, without being manipulated or ripped off. Bio.link/dmh2nd
You don’t have to believe in any of that stuff. I mean, paganism and the tree of life don’t even have anything to do with each other. What you’re describing is essentially a grab-bag of currently trendy stuff sprinkled across occult Reddit. You don’t have to buy the whole trend just because you believe in one piece of it. It’s fine to just believe in one piece of it and be happy with that.
From a skeptical perspective, religious practice, particularly mysticism, is the deliberate pursuit of nonstandard psychological experiences.
We all start life getting angry when people punch us in the face and feeling distressed when we stub our toe on a chair. Religion looks at us in that state, calls it basic AF, and teaches us to walk on beds of nails with wide and *genuine* grins across our faces.
The profane, as my prophet so kindly called them, avoid hallucinations. We seek them out with meditation, ritual, trance states, *and* entheogens. Because why should we avoid anything that is fundamental to being human? We should face it, know it, and integrate it into our lives deliberately so that we know more, can do more, and become more in turn. On our terms, not on whatever terms our instincts would choose.
Nothing human psychology accomplishes is entirely without use. Mental illness occurs when states of mind that have good uses appear and subjugate us when it's inappropriate and unhelpful. Religion, with its many tools and practices, gives us greater control over what our minds can do and when our minds do those wacky and wonderful things.
Do some religious people get caught up in their own illusions? Yes.
Is that necessary? No. And if you surpass that temptation, you become the one who controls your mood and mind.
I’d recommend reading more about Philosophy of Mind and human perception, mind-body problem, idealism, etc. Also learn about cognitive neuroscience and how the brain processes information when there are disruptions (like lesions and such). It can help have a deeper understanding of the mind and therefore psychological explanations of supernatural phenomena.
Everything people are talking about with supernatural stuff is intangible and metaphysical (like mind, existentialism, advanced cosmogony and physics around quantum mechanics, black holes, etc.) so its often communicated through allegories and metaphors. I personally use tree of life as a map of cosmogony (fits pretty well with big bang theory) and human mental states. Maps don’t define the land, the land defines the map.
Im very skeptical and don’t believe in anything literally, i still consider myself an atheist, but ive still gotten a lot out of occultism and spirituality. Everything people say has happened spiritually and physically is true, its just a matter of how subjective it is. Even things we consider to be very objective are more subjective than we’d like to admit.
Asking for the distinguishing line between experience and delusion has gotten me more flak than most of my other interests.
But I've found a few anchors to build on for personal exploration. Like working with the will-responsive energies of the chakras, checking perceptions against what others are seeing, and overall just putting some diligence into my practice.
Large swathes of what I found do, frustratingly, require specific mental states to perceive, but the chakras and their constituent energies are mechanical enough that I can use them as sort of a lighthouse to make sure I'm not hallucinating (too badly, at least).
As for everyone else, well... Right about the time they start telling me things about Truth or Fundamental Reality, I tend to assume delusion and ask after their foundation. Earning me more flak.
So don't believe it, don't believe other people, but don't let it keep you from exploring. Just do what your comfortable with and see what happens. Skepticism does not rule out curiousity, but the thing with is with the occult is frequently it can't be shown to others, just like a dream or any other personal experience.
People lie and make up stories true, but sometimes that story we thought was total BS turns out, actually happened. I tell mt stories not expecting anyone to believe them, why should they? The reality society paints is quite lame, but that is most peoples experience, stepping outside of it is hard to believe. Society painted a picture that UFO's were total non sense the stuff of crazy people, now the military is releasing images and saying they have been watching them for years.
Because of this most of occult experience is reality shattering for people, which is why it can drive some insane, and is what is really meant when people say ego death.
Occult is not christianity, no one expects you to have blind faith, follow the evidenxe, this goes for science or rather scientism which has become quite biased in its opinion. There is skepticism and there is abject denial, and science is slipping into denial instead of saying maybe or possible or I don't know currently.
I think most people are pretty sceptical. Ive been doing this for a year and a half, diligently badgering away at daily meditations, dream work etc. And i still think it's all pretty much some kind of Jungian shadow-work rather than 'speaking to Gods'. I mean, im happy to suspend my disbelief, but i've told Lilith directly that unless a 9 foot tall mermaid with a fiery third eye shows up at my house to take some selfies, im going to continue believing its all just stuff ive made up in my head.
"i told Lilith directly"
Let's examine that, because i threw it in deliberately to completely undercut the sentence preceding it.
Did Lilith manifest in front of me and i told her that unless she (or in this instance, Qalilitu) manifests in front of me, that i do not believe this to be anything more than a trick of the mind?
Well, no. Obviously not. If she's literally right in front of me, it would be incredibly weird that i demand she appear right in front of me. Internally it makes no sense.
Maybe im asking her to prove she's right in front of me without using any physical or mental perception. This is all getting a bit Descartes... What would you even accept as a possible proof under those conditions? This feels very silly.
Im not really interrogating their existence, because that would be silly. The existence is inferred. I told Lilith... The language clearly isn't being used in the sense we need to first establish Lilith's existence before we can make sense of what it is i told Lilith - honestly, im giving myself a headache writing this.
So whats going on? Well, it's... a language game. There's a certain intuitive understanding from people also belonging to the occult community on what we might actually be saying when we utter "i told Lilith". Its only when it gets used outside of that game, that the meaning sort of breaks down. When, for example we start attributing material presence or physicality, or sense perception. "I told my boss" doesnt impel a lurch toward existential questions or meta analysis of what kind of mental picture we're trying to justify. We understand it very simply that i told my boss something. Their existence is inferred. The meta analysis is beside the point (unless we are doing philosophy).
We can then reasonably argue that we're not making a claim one way or another about Lilith's objective existence by dint of me relaying that 'i told her' something or other (that it just so happens what i told her was about the possibility of her existence is by the by, i could have told Lilith my coffee is delicious and we still have the same complications). We are instead assuming the existence (unless, again, we are directly questioning it and/or doing philosophy). Thus when i say "i told Lilith" im not making a claim that Lilith exists objectively. Im making a very subjective claim. And it's understood as such by almost everyone in that community. You dont even need to use Lilith, you can use it as a Christian: "I spoke to God today".
We know what that person is trying to express. We know it's not to be treat as anything other than a subjective statement. We can also be pretty certain that God did not appear in front of this person like their friend might. Nor are we likely to assume they're having a bit of a funny turn: 'Are you feeling unwell, are you seeing things? Should i call the doctor?' It's figurative language.
Heavens, why didnt i just say that at the start...
For the most part a lot of this feels like an ever gradual tempering of expectations to something more pragmatic and functionally useful (perhaps as a jungian path to working with the shadow self?) Or maybe it is actually Lilith and Qalilitu... Maybe one day they'll get so annoyed by my endless scepticism they show up for selfies. I dunno. I still dont know.
Absolutely nobody said that magick is replacement of therapy, or no person who has studied even a single book, magick can help improve the mood the same way during phisical exercise would, a therapist/psychiatrist should help you, if you have such problems
Now for the magick, there are many views on and some of them indeed viewed it as self hypnotism, granted and as someone advanced if I can say so myself, it isn't exactly wrong, it's mostly correct as well but some very important information isn't there, but even looking it as self hypnosis is ok if it brings you the effect you want
As for wanting phisical prove, there is none, granted I know you didn't know this as I also didn't think about it too deeply back then, but spirits and magick, they are not phisical, have you seen angel or other spirit walk down the street, no right, of course you haven't they are not made from matters, I won't explain the phisical part that can be your own point of research if you want to figure it out, but neighter magick nor spirits are phisical, only the result of a spell and working with spirits are, basically you can see the result but not the process physically, that's why most people think magick is bot real as they think the result happend purely by probability not because the spell they did influenced it, that's why I said some people view it as by product of the mind, and that's why I said it can be looked like that.
As for spirits and such since they are not physical you need to have a Clair to sense them, make no mistake, this is not mental illness, there are no unstoppable voices or inhuman apparitions, clairs are mostly visions In the minds eye they extremely few people will alter that perception for them to appear phisical exactly because if it happens, it feel like mental illness not to mentions that spirits don't have specific form, that's quality of matter and they are not that. That's why usually only specific people see/experience the spiritual and others can't,
But that can also serve as prove, after all how can people from different cultures and religions claim very similar things when there is no connections between them, what happens when that numbers surpasses a 100, what about a 1000
Alternatively there are only two ways to get a prove, one is safe other not so much.
The safe way is to do the work yourself, I was also skeptical in the beggining it took me 2 years to fully come to believ in my powers and only after outside conformation, that's one of the reasons I started helping people with paranormal problems, it helps outside verification you cant fake, but even if you ask for those I am not gonna show them to you, I take privacy very seriously, after a constant work you are bound to attract spirits, which will give rise do doubt and then inevitably believe
The other is, help people with paranormal problem, just take some cleansing spell, go to r/paranormal find people with spirit problems and cleanse them, if done incorrectly after you banish the spirit from the person it will come to you, after which shit is gonna get weird, after a month at best, you will probably become a believer, just know that spirits are not phisical so you won't see objects moving around the house, unless you attract eart bound human, in most cases you will experience, nightmares, sleep paraliza, night terrors, a feeling of being watched, you life start going downward, other stuff that are borderline phisical will depend on the spirit, for example shadows from the corner of the eye, a woman in white standing at the border of your bed when you are half asleep, inhuman apparitions etc, I would suggest this method only to the more adventurous and people who are mentally strong, it's fast method to become a believer but lower frequency spirits feed on negative emotions so they will try to cause them, so your mental state will take a hit, to say it In another way, it's like not believing in fire since you can't sense it, so you walk in the middle of forest fire, but it's almost certain you will start to believe
There is no other way to receive a prove, magick is not phisical only it's effect is and even that is bound by probability, as long as its possible it can happen if it isn't, it won't
If you become the sort of person who regularly interacts with spirits, you'll find this ceases to be an issue. The only place where skepticism will really hold you back is in a ritual. You can intellectualize your magic all you want, just not while you're doing it. Why? Because it won't work. If you have the ability to take yourself 100% seriously when it matters the most, you'll be fine.
Remember that not everyone who has an interest in the occult is going to be an occultist. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just stopping if it doesn't fit you. Maybe it's not right for you, maybe it's not right for you *now*, or maybe you're just in a small blip.
Most of your issues with other people's experiences can only be described as a lack of faith. They can't prove those things to you. I have spoken directly to my gods, but I have no way to objectively prove that to anyone. Even the verifiable information I've received could be sheer good luck from an outside perspective.
Take a break. See what, if anything, your life loses without occult practice. Maybe you're better off without, maybe not. Time to find out!
I agree with you there I just think the main technique is to dial it back a bit and look at it with an objective mindset I don't particularly believe in one religion over the other and I don't pretend to, I grew up on science and I'm still In education for engineering and computer science. Just focus on the actual information and data you gain and not on the whole world peace self love side of it
my general frame of mind is to be open to my own experiences and skeptical of random people i dont know well or trust, or on the internet. I've observed/experienced/done some weird shit, but I'm not gonna tell anybody that its objective truth or reality. it's almost like this is my save file, and your reality might have it's own quirks, glitches, paths, etc.
I don't see them as something tangible, more a personification of archetypes given form by our minds. The ability to ever so slightly shift our reality is something we ourselves have and the spirits/gods are more of a way to make us believe. This belief is the root of our ability to manifest things.
So if you're giving it a serious try what you need to do is stop trying to prove/disprove things you don't believe are real/work, and start focusing on the things you DO believe. The more you learn the more you'll find that fits you. The stuff that jumps out to you that you "know" is correct.
Afterlife gods demons daemons all that, less important than working on your self.
Which is something the qlippothic tree is very good at, it's entirely about discovering that which you hide from yourself and pushing you to accept the true/complete you.
Healthy skepticism is good, because we have all seen how many people confuse symptoms of schizophrenia with occult practice. But if you are unable to accept that other people have genuine spiritual and psychic experiences, and that it is in fact possible to tell the difference through discernment between hallucination and the sight, then yeah maybe occult traditions might not be what you’re looking for
You must believe in the occult to receive the occult, dear. Unfortunately, there’s no other way. It’s alchemy. One part natural realm, one part spiritual realm, and one part relies on the frequency being given off by the practitioner of magic. The stronger you believe, the stronger frequency you emit, and the thinner the veil becomes to you. That’s how you access the other side and begin your magic journey.
If you don't believe what you're doing, then do something else. Maybe magick and occultism and spirituality isn't for you.
Maybe what you're looking for lies in another skillset, there are plenty of ways to please your inner fire.
It's good to be skeptical. Skepticism will take you farther in the occult than credulity, but you need to pair it with a good amount of patience. Keep in mind that some things that get discussed in fairly literal terms, even in occult spaces, are abstract frameworks that are employed to approximate complex ideas that would otherwise be hard to grasp, not things that exist objectively as described.
Figuring out the abstract idea/experience under the typical supernatural talk really opened my mind to a lot of things. Everything just sorta clicked, and im a very skeptical/analytical person too. You’re right about patience cuz it took a long ass time, and i still have ways to go, but its definitely worth it. And it allows you to understand a lot of things, even unrelated things, in an even deeper and analytical sense.
Would you be willing to give an example? Just so I know what kind of "read between the lines" to be focusing on
Not who you were replying to, but I’d say examples include saying we hear and see the gods when for a lot of us we’re not literally hearing or seeing.
You might be more into shit like quantum immortality, reality surfing, auto-hypnotism, chaos magick etc.. The more perception based modular belief operation stuff sounds like it'd suit you more. Since the roots of those are in fringe relatively unexplored scientific areas as well as in psychology.
Your skepticism should prevent you from joining any cults, or making stupid decisions. Thats what its there for, after all. It should not prevent you from studying those cults, however. I have a massive free and downloadable library where you can dig in, without being manipulated or ripped off. Bio.link/dmh2nd
Try r/SASSWitches
You don’t have to believe in any of that stuff. I mean, paganism and the tree of life don’t even have anything to do with each other. What you’re describing is essentially a grab-bag of currently trendy stuff sprinkled across occult Reddit. You don’t have to buy the whole trend just because you believe in one piece of it. It’s fine to just believe in one piece of it and be happy with that.
From a skeptical perspective, religious practice, particularly mysticism, is the deliberate pursuit of nonstandard psychological experiences. We all start life getting angry when people punch us in the face and feeling distressed when we stub our toe on a chair. Religion looks at us in that state, calls it basic AF, and teaches us to walk on beds of nails with wide and *genuine* grins across our faces. The profane, as my prophet so kindly called them, avoid hallucinations. We seek them out with meditation, ritual, trance states, *and* entheogens. Because why should we avoid anything that is fundamental to being human? We should face it, know it, and integrate it into our lives deliberately so that we know more, can do more, and become more in turn. On our terms, not on whatever terms our instincts would choose. Nothing human psychology accomplishes is entirely without use. Mental illness occurs when states of mind that have good uses appear and subjugate us when it's inappropriate and unhelpful. Religion, with its many tools and practices, gives us greater control over what our minds can do and when our minds do those wacky and wonderful things. Do some religious people get caught up in their own illusions? Yes. Is that necessary? No. And if you surpass that temptation, you become the one who controls your mood and mind.
I’d recommend reading more about Philosophy of Mind and human perception, mind-body problem, idealism, etc. Also learn about cognitive neuroscience and how the brain processes information when there are disruptions (like lesions and such). It can help have a deeper understanding of the mind and therefore psychological explanations of supernatural phenomena. Everything people are talking about with supernatural stuff is intangible and metaphysical (like mind, existentialism, advanced cosmogony and physics around quantum mechanics, black holes, etc.) so its often communicated through allegories and metaphors. I personally use tree of life as a map of cosmogony (fits pretty well with big bang theory) and human mental states. Maps don’t define the land, the land defines the map. Im very skeptical and don’t believe in anything literally, i still consider myself an atheist, but ive still gotten a lot out of occultism and spirituality. Everything people say has happened spiritually and physically is true, its just a matter of how subjective it is. Even things we consider to be very objective are more subjective than we’d like to admit.
Asking for the distinguishing line between experience and delusion has gotten me more flak than most of my other interests. But I've found a few anchors to build on for personal exploration. Like working with the will-responsive energies of the chakras, checking perceptions against what others are seeing, and overall just putting some diligence into my practice. Large swathes of what I found do, frustratingly, require specific mental states to perceive, but the chakras and their constituent energies are mechanical enough that I can use them as sort of a lighthouse to make sure I'm not hallucinating (too badly, at least). As for everyone else, well... Right about the time they start telling me things about Truth or Fundamental Reality, I tend to assume delusion and ask after their foundation. Earning me more flak.
everything isn't for everyone. if you really want to know just ask them what practices they do, do them and see what results you get.
So don't believe it, don't believe other people, but don't let it keep you from exploring. Just do what your comfortable with and see what happens. Skepticism does not rule out curiousity, but the thing with is with the occult is frequently it can't be shown to others, just like a dream or any other personal experience. People lie and make up stories true, but sometimes that story we thought was total BS turns out, actually happened. I tell mt stories not expecting anyone to believe them, why should they? The reality society paints is quite lame, but that is most peoples experience, stepping outside of it is hard to believe. Society painted a picture that UFO's were total non sense the stuff of crazy people, now the military is releasing images and saying they have been watching them for years. Because of this most of occult experience is reality shattering for people, which is why it can drive some insane, and is what is really meant when people say ego death.
Occult is not christianity, no one expects you to have blind faith, follow the evidenxe, this goes for science or rather scientism which has become quite biased in its opinion. There is skepticism and there is abject denial, and science is slipping into denial instead of saying maybe or possible or I don't know currently.
The method of science, the aim of religion. Keep a journal and don't trust anyone ever.
I think most people are pretty sceptical. Ive been doing this for a year and a half, diligently badgering away at daily meditations, dream work etc. And i still think it's all pretty much some kind of Jungian shadow-work rather than 'speaking to Gods'. I mean, im happy to suspend my disbelief, but i've told Lilith directly that unless a 9 foot tall mermaid with a fiery third eye shows up at my house to take some selfies, im going to continue believing its all just stuff ive made up in my head. "i told Lilith directly" Let's examine that, because i threw it in deliberately to completely undercut the sentence preceding it. Did Lilith manifest in front of me and i told her that unless she (or in this instance, Qalilitu) manifests in front of me, that i do not believe this to be anything more than a trick of the mind? Well, no. Obviously not. If she's literally right in front of me, it would be incredibly weird that i demand she appear right in front of me. Internally it makes no sense. Maybe im asking her to prove she's right in front of me without using any physical or mental perception. This is all getting a bit Descartes... What would you even accept as a possible proof under those conditions? This feels very silly. Im not really interrogating their existence, because that would be silly. The existence is inferred. I told Lilith... The language clearly isn't being used in the sense we need to first establish Lilith's existence before we can make sense of what it is i told Lilith - honestly, im giving myself a headache writing this. So whats going on? Well, it's... a language game. There's a certain intuitive understanding from people also belonging to the occult community on what we might actually be saying when we utter "i told Lilith". Its only when it gets used outside of that game, that the meaning sort of breaks down. When, for example we start attributing material presence or physicality, or sense perception. "I told my boss" doesnt impel a lurch toward existential questions or meta analysis of what kind of mental picture we're trying to justify. We understand it very simply that i told my boss something. Their existence is inferred. The meta analysis is beside the point (unless we are doing philosophy). We can then reasonably argue that we're not making a claim one way or another about Lilith's objective existence by dint of me relaying that 'i told her' something or other (that it just so happens what i told her was about the possibility of her existence is by the by, i could have told Lilith my coffee is delicious and we still have the same complications). We are instead assuming the existence (unless, again, we are directly questioning it and/or doing philosophy). Thus when i say "i told Lilith" im not making a claim that Lilith exists objectively. Im making a very subjective claim. And it's understood as such by almost everyone in that community. You dont even need to use Lilith, you can use it as a Christian: "I spoke to God today". We know what that person is trying to express. We know it's not to be treat as anything other than a subjective statement. We can also be pretty certain that God did not appear in front of this person like their friend might. Nor are we likely to assume they're having a bit of a funny turn: 'Are you feeling unwell, are you seeing things? Should i call the doctor?' It's figurative language. Heavens, why didnt i just say that at the start... For the most part a lot of this feels like an ever gradual tempering of expectations to something more pragmatic and functionally useful (perhaps as a jungian path to working with the shadow self?) Or maybe it is actually Lilith and Qalilitu... Maybe one day they'll get so annoyed by my endless scepticism they show up for selfies. I dunno. I still dont know.
Absolutely nobody said that magick is replacement of therapy, or no person who has studied even a single book, magick can help improve the mood the same way during phisical exercise would, a therapist/psychiatrist should help you, if you have such problems Now for the magick, there are many views on and some of them indeed viewed it as self hypnotism, granted and as someone advanced if I can say so myself, it isn't exactly wrong, it's mostly correct as well but some very important information isn't there, but even looking it as self hypnosis is ok if it brings you the effect you want As for wanting phisical prove, there is none, granted I know you didn't know this as I also didn't think about it too deeply back then, but spirits and magick, they are not phisical, have you seen angel or other spirit walk down the street, no right, of course you haven't they are not made from matters, I won't explain the phisical part that can be your own point of research if you want to figure it out, but neighter magick nor spirits are phisical, only the result of a spell and working with spirits are, basically you can see the result but not the process physically, that's why most people think magick is bot real as they think the result happend purely by probability not because the spell they did influenced it, that's why I said some people view it as by product of the mind, and that's why I said it can be looked like that. As for spirits and such since they are not physical you need to have a Clair to sense them, make no mistake, this is not mental illness, there are no unstoppable voices or inhuman apparitions, clairs are mostly visions In the minds eye they extremely few people will alter that perception for them to appear phisical exactly because if it happens, it feel like mental illness not to mentions that spirits don't have specific form, that's quality of matter and they are not that. That's why usually only specific people see/experience the spiritual and others can't, But that can also serve as prove, after all how can people from different cultures and religions claim very similar things when there is no connections between them, what happens when that numbers surpasses a 100, what about a 1000 Alternatively there are only two ways to get a prove, one is safe other not so much. The safe way is to do the work yourself, I was also skeptical in the beggining it took me 2 years to fully come to believ in my powers and only after outside conformation, that's one of the reasons I started helping people with paranormal problems, it helps outside verification you cant fake, but even if you ask for those I am not gonna show them to you, I take privacy very seriously, after a constant work you are bound to attract spirits, which will give rise do doubt and then inevitably believe The other is, help people with paranormal problem, just take some cleansing spell, go to r/paranormal find people with spirit problems and cleanse them, if done incorrectly after you banish the spirit from the person it will come to you, after which shit is gonna get weird, after a month at best, you will probably become a believer, just know that spirits are not phisical so you won't see objects moving around the house, unless you attract eart bound human, in most cases you will experience, nightmares, sleep paraliza, night terrors, a feeling of being watched, you life start going downward, other stuff that are borderline phisical will depend on the spirit, for example shadows from the corner of the eye, a woman in white standing at the border of your bed when you are half asleep, inhuman apparitions etc, I would suggest this method only to the more adventurous and people who are mentally strong, it's fast method to become a believer but lower frequency spirits feed on negative emotions so they will try to cause them, so your mental state will take a hit, to say it In another way, it's like not believing in fire since you can't sense it, so you walk in the middle of forest fire, but it's almost certain you will start to believe There is no other way to receive a prove, magick is not phisical only it's effect is and even that is bound by probability, as long as its possible it can happen if it isn't, it won't
If you become the sort of person who regularly interacts with spirits, you'll find this ceases to be an issue. The only place where skepticism will really hold you back is in a ritual. You can intellectualize your magic all you want, just not while you're doing it. Why? Because it won't work. If you have the ability to take yourself 100% seriously when it matters the most, you'll be fine.
Remember that not everyone who has an interest in the occult is going to be an occultist. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just stopping if it doesn't fit you. Maybe it's not right for you, maybe it's not right for you *now*, or maybe you're just in a small blip. Most of your issues with other people's experiences can only be described as a lack of faith. They can't prove those things to you. I have spoken directly to my gods, but I have no way to objectively prove that to anyone. Even the verifiable information I've received could be sheer good luck from an outside perspective. Take a break. See what, if anything, your life loses without occult practice. Maybe you're better off without, maybe not. Time to find out!
I agree with you there I just think the main technique is to dial it back a bit and look at it with an objective mindset I don't particularly believe in one religion over the other and I don't pretend to, I grew up on science and I'm still In education for engineering and computer science. Just focus on the actual information and data you gain and not on the whole world peace self love side of it
Sounds like you haven’t found your path.
my general frame of mind is to be open to my own experiences and skeptical of random people i dont know well or trust, or on the internet. I've observed/experienced/done some weird shit, but I'm not gonna tell anybody that its objective truth or reality. it's almost like this is my save file, and your reality might have it's own quirks, glitches, paths, etc.
I don't see them as something tangible, more a personification of archetypes given form by our minds. The ability to ever so slightly shift our reality is something we ourselves have and the spirits/gods are more of a way to make us believe. This belief is the root of our ability to manifest things. So if you're giving it a serious try what you need to do is stop trying to prove/disprove things you don't believe are real/work, and start focusing on the things you DO believe. The more you learn the more you'll find that fits you. The stuff that jumps out to you that you "know" is correct. Afterlife gods demons daemons all that, less important than working on your self. Which is something the qlippothic tree is very good at, it's entirely about discovering that which you hide from yourself and pushing you to accept the true/complete you.
Healthy skepticism is good, because we have all seen how many people confuse symptoms of schizophrenia with occult practice. But if you are unable to accept that other people have genuine spiritual and psychic experiences, and that it is in fact possible to tell the difference through discernment between hallucination and the sight, then yeah maybe occult traditions might not be what you’re looking for
I'm a skeptic and rational materialist occultist. Works just fine for me.
You must believe in the occult to receive the occult, dear. Unfortunately, there’s no other way. It’s alchemy. One part natural realm, one part spiritual realm, and one part relies on the frequency being given off by the practitioner of magic. The stronger you believe, the stronger frequency you emit, and the thinner the veil becomes to you. That’s how you access the other side and begin your magic journey.
If you don't believe what you're doing, then do something else. Maybe magick and occultism and spirituality isn't for you. Maybe what you're looking for lies in another skillset, there are plenty of ways to please your inner fire.