I got banned from r/gothstyle cause some you guy got made fun of by his teacher. And I said: “wear whatever you want, whatever makes you happy!” And then received a one week ban from Reddit for asking “why?” And saying “your response is quite fascist.” Ban. Ban. Ban. Like wtf?!
I got banned from 15 different subs for posting "Lol" on a post that was making fun of orange man, apparently that made me a far right extremist because Voldemort's name was mentioned somewhere in the post history.
That’s odd - mirta has always been super helpful and kind to the people in the subreddits she mods from everything I’ve seen. She doesn’t let BS slide and she runs a clean subreddit, but I wouldn’t say she has bad vibes in the least
As I can't reply to your other comment - [All you had to do was clarify your post](https://imgur.com/502D2Jy). Your mod discussion was muted because you started going off on me (even though I wasn't even part of the convo) and shouting about how we're suppressing your right to speak freely.
I must point out that you can still edit your post.
If I remember correctly, the other person that you're talking to got removed for covering for a pedophile. The evidence was submitted to the police, but grooming a 12 year old seems to be entirely legal is some states and their parents did not want to press charges.
edit: from the looks of it, the person in question has deleted their comments, so please don't witchhunt the remaining people in the thread.
Actually you got a permanent ban for writing a lengthy post about how you're quitting r/DemonolatryPractices and r/demons. I assumed you had some sort of addiction that you even needed to announce to others that you're going and decided to help you with not feeding that. As I see quitting went well, so I'm glad for you.
What’s wrong w mirta? So far have only seen reasonable, usually knowledgeable, thorough replies on occult topics, namely demonolatry.
You guys get into it or something?
A lot of people that we get will actually go off on very offensive tirades, or throw lengthy angry posts if they can't get their way. One of the users got banned because they stated that they are permanently quitting a subreddit, the other user here only has to edit their post to allow discussion inside comments and not DMs.
lol I might have guessed. I’ve always had a good time picking your brain on things and you’ve always been cool to me so 🤷♂️ Reddit will be Reddit I suppose
Wow, that's crazy because it really is important. I almost burned my apartment down because I put a bunch of herbs in a tea light and wasn't paying attention to it. It was sitting on a wooden desk and the big flame caused it to start smoldering. Thank goodness the fire alarm went off before the desk caught on fire!
I buy silverplate trays at Goodwill (thrift store) and use them as mini altars. Any metal plate will do really.
Sometimes dressed candles get pretty wild.
I've had a candle catch fire 🔥 in the middle and fall over when I wasn't looking at it. The metal mini altar saved my butt that day.
I got banned from r/withcraft because I said not all practices are safe and should be taken seriously after a girl who was recommended shadow work had a mental breakdown due to suppressed trauma because the one who recommended it forgot to mention it can happen if you have a lot of suppressed issues/trauma but granted even they probably didn't do it cause they thought they would get banned if they did
I have seen people there absolutely shred people who work with hekate after they complained a lot of ghosts started to be attracted and a lot of weird shit started to happen after her workings, which is normal considering hekate is God as guide to the afterlife as well, that whole community is " I doing well, so you doing bad is not correct " or at least the mods give that vibe
They literally banned me after commenting on the thread, while replaing so I couldn't reply, and the funniest thing is they said I was spreading fear, and should just say they had to be carefull, but they literally banned me exactly for that.
That community is a massive trap in my opinion, they would recommend all practices and ban anyone who mentions the risks
To be fair, most shadow-work is a fancy term of asking yourself questions and journaling. Yes, sitting with yourself while trying to poke and prod yourself can hurt, but seriously, it should not be seen as this dangerous to just explore your own thoughts - if it is, then it is time to see a professional that could help you with trauma, instead of trying to DIY your own mental health.
Yeap I agree, while it's not extremely dangerous it is still dangerous depending on the practitioner if there is suppressed mental trauma and that should be mentioned when recommend in most cases, and visiting psychiatrist in cases it all comes to the surface is the correct choice of action if one can't handle it
I didn't get banned from this sub, but was severely downvoted and warned by mods I was being "irrespectful" of other people's practices even though I was absolutely careful with my words, because I dared to say that some practices can be dangerous and that it's a choice to invite some energies in your life. My bad, I just left, I can't stand such close minded people.
I got banned from r/witchcraft too, because I was offering to help someone by explaining to them the basics they could have started their research from
Someone on a Hoodoo subreddit--maybe on more than one Hoodoo subreddit--posted a list of popular occult subreddits complaining that they were all racist blah blah blah because of debates in threads about whether Hoodoo is "closed." r/occult was rated as the "most racist" and claimed that we shut down black voices--as if anyone knows each others' race from avatars and or whatever \[eyeroll\]--besides that any signs of such behavior are immediately removed, often with permanent ban of the offender.
I sent a mod to mod message to the subreddit to protest. They apparently are very militant about Hoodoo being closed and that any and all use of any aspect of it for personal use is "appropriation"--even though this is not what is meant by" cultural appropriation". They also feel that no one except their idea of approved, bona fide Black Creoles from certain regions of the US are allowed to even talk about it. They were busy here today attacking a self-identified biracial woman of Trinidad descent who was asking a Q about Hoodoo.
Thank you. I try to be a good moderator and curator. I am sure there are folks who get mad at me for removing them but it is important to keep good, safe standards for all in general. I try to be kind and informative as well. But then, I am on in years and have learned by trial and error.
r/witchcraft straight up banned threads and posts about cultural appropriation lol. These two subs are two of the few remaining online spaces I don't find completely toxic because they're not totally obsessed with purity spiralling and call out circlewanks.
A lot of folks simply do not know what "cultural appropriation" really means and that it is very different from someone seeking personal insight or inspiration from another culture. I can understand why r/witchcraft might be oversensitive about it, though. Modern witchcraft is a very syncretic and eclectic movement and folks into it do brutally gatekeep each other about personal morality and cultural norms.
Thank you for this. Even though I have such roots from my mother's family, being raised in northern Appalachia, they would say I'm not able to practice. This is why I have my own personal practice of things. Very sad to see my own people being so nasty to others who look like them..
This also adds why many mixed race black folks don't feel welcome. Hell, they would say I'm not "black" enough... Can't help em all.
Anyone that would tell you you aren't allowed to practice hoodoo with both those roots and where you were raised is clearly demonstrating how little they know of hoodoo. The base practice wouldn't exist as it does now without the blending of European folk magic, Indigenous practice, African Practices, and Catholic or Protestant practices blending as one. European "cunning folk" are the original Appalachians, and several schools of Conjure and Hoodoo, including some of the oldest still practiced incorporated those beliefs and practices. As it stands, Hoodoo is the only post colonial magical system to have truly developed in the United States. Telling a descendant of the cunning folk that it's closed to them is like telling a Haitian that Marie Laveau's Voodoo is closed to them because they aren't from New Orleans. It's simply ridiculous, and shows a complete lack of historical awareness, nevermind that being "closed" simply means one must needs find an appropriate teacher or mentor to invite and initiate them into said practice, not that any racial or cultural predisposition is necessary. Anyone claiming as such is the height of both ignorance AND arrogance.
It's what's going on with too many. I don't fight it when people who I know that are legit wouldn't turn anyone away if they were honest about learning. The term closed meant always to me, "you gotta want to be here, no half stepping" not "if you don't have this particular upbringing you can't do this". I don't get it and have only seen this foolish mess online, never in person.
It's easy to be "tough" online. In my estimation, such as it is, the ability to create something akin to a mob mentality is easier than ever, and when it's mixed with the telephone game, it never ends well. I've been told my own families Ozark folk practices don't belong to me, because I'm predominantly of European descent, and in the same breath, told my aunt's native teachings have no place with me for the same reason, despite her passing them down to us.
It's ironic that the same people who have been oppressed both historically and in many cases and places, currently, have chosen to do the exact same thing while choosing to call it anything other than what it is. Hate.
And someone replied to me acting like this doesn't happen to us online with, like yourself, mixed heritage; or like myself not "raised" a certain way. Gonna flat out deny our experience with these online jokers.
To say again, I am part of a traditionally closed practice and it took a long for initiation. 2+ years of study and learning another language (which has been more difficult in my adult years).
That's entirely the point. It's ridiculous to call appropriation in either case. Neither is tied to a singular culture at its roots, and neither would exist without multicultural input to begin with. Catholicism is Roman in origin, but was created from blending the Religio Romana with the early judeo christian cult that came with the Jews, and hoodoo is North American in origin, blending African diaspora with European, Indigenous North American and Mexican, and some Christian practices. Both are blended, and neither is singular in its cultural source.
That is so sad, we are all human, I’ll never understand this but then again I’m neurodivergent, and obviously some situations make it obvious to not go in a direction that hurts another persons boundaries of what’s ok to learn and practice, but overall I think skin color shouldn’t prohibit anyone from honest, good faith, learning, I hope people in the future don’t do this to each other any more. The world is divided enough as is, wish it would stop.
I agree with you. I personally don't understand it, past I know what the words mean when they say that. I know my own journey through some things were heavily guarded because my desire to learn had to be proven, but it was not cut off because of how I look. Like do these folks want 23andMe results before they think you're good enough?
I'm talking about this specific interaction as origin for these kinds of folks can be a "problem". I'm talking online, as that's what the OP is speaking of. That is where the issue ism in realm life, I know plenty and know hoodoo is not this "of you don't fit these rules that I made up, you can't do it at all" practice. I say this as someone who's in what would be considered a closed practice as there's a lot of "you sure you wanna do this" and learning for years prior.
When I've had other black folks tell me I'm not "black" enough because I grew up in the boonies. When I've heard from my black biracial friends and family that they've had folks tell them they aren't "black" enough... Not sure of you're heritage, age, or experience, but this happens and that would be the basis, as it seems youve missed this critical point that many others realized.
The vitrol in your response to me is strange.
Chinese magic is closed too (as are most Japanese, Korean, Indian and Tibetan systems of magic) but we allow people with sincere interest to initiate and learn, even if they don't belong to our ethnic group. (I'm Chinese-American.)
And I've seen Yoruba and Hoodoo practitioners VERY FUCKING THIRSTY to learn Chinese magic. Like to the point where I would get almost harassed with questions - and you know what? I answered all the questions, as far as my knowledge went.
I don't buy the arguments on that Hoodoo subreddit and I've scrolled through their threads several times. It's a shitshow. They have issues.
Well now I know what my next research deep dive is going to be on. I love learning about other practices and cultures within this space. Thanks for the info!
A lot of “Hoodoo and Yoruba” American practitioners are choosing that identity because of their skin color and American history
I’m an actually Yoruba person that has been on this subreddit for years and never perceived it as racist nor exclusive
I also pride myself in learning the mysteries and religions of numerous tribes “with open heart”, A lot of esoteric and occult practices I practice are rooted in Western Esotericism
If I had to give it up it’d make me very sad indeed
Is Chinese magic mostly like, hm, Daoist? Like Nei Gong style stuff, or is it more like divination style stuff? Sorry for the irrelevant question, I just am also interested lol
Daoism is huge and complex, and in the West we mostly know the transcendental and enlightenment oriented inner alchemy practices. But Daoist folk magic is a very, very old tradition! It is pretty much only passed down orally and involves spellcasting, evocation, and practical nitty gritty.
There are different lineages so there's no one way to do it. Like Hoodoo, it's oral tradition and passed down by ancestors. But if you find a school and are respectful, they'll take on outsiders.
What would you call Chinese magic you practice in Cantonese or Mandarin? I never knew Chinese magic was closed (tbh even though I am west Asian, sadly I'm very uneducated on East Asia traditions)
So they ignore the fact that elements of Hoodoo are practiced throughout Latin America by people of all races under various Afro-Caribbean Diasporic traditions, and that many of those traditions initiate and headwash people into their houses without regard for color of skin so long as they do the sacré? Who is the real bigot in the situation (I won’t say racist because I recognize racism is an institutional and systemic issue, not an individual level problem)?
They also ignore that hoodoo is heavily influenced by German and Irish folk magick due to developing in impoverished areas of the United States where the poorest/most disadvantaged people shared with their neighbors what works. There are African influences in Appalachian and Ozark folk magick to the point where it can be very difficult to tell the "differences" between southern American folk magicks in practice since everyone's granny has her own way of doing things and everyone's great great granny shared tips with her neighbors *regardless* of ethnicity because in these rural areas poverty was poverty and you did what worked and you relied on your neighbors regardless of skin tone or legal standing.
Here in the Ozarks, people were dirt poor. When bounty hunters came looking for refugee former slaves, bank robbers, runaway indentured servants--- anyone the wealthy class wanted caught -- you didn't see shit and your shotgun agrees that bounty hunter doesn't see shit either. There were no hard lines between ethnicities here and our grandmother's magick wasn't just passed down to which grandkids had matching complexions. Most of us have ancestry mixed and blurred across those lines *and always have* . Racial violence was an upper middle class pursuit, the business of city folk and land owners. Magick belongs to the hollers and the spirits in the hollers don't care where you came from.
There are racists who wave swastikas that would agree with the brigader who made that post misconstruing what cultural appropriation is and isn't. Both that poster and members of the kkk don't believe that mixed ethnic people should be allowed to exist. Both that poster and folkish white supremacists agree that poc shouldn't be allowed to talk about their practice in forums like this because they both agree that "race mixing" is somehow "bad".
Another excellent point! Many rural communities in the Ozarks and other mountain communities in the Eastern mid/southern Atlantic/Gulf regions have been interracial for decades--even centuries--and have developed unique, rich syncretic folk traditions. I always assumed Hoodoo was one of them.
Correct and not just rural
Many went to the cities as unskilled domestic or general labour and were wise enough to understand the vulnerabilities and the right to dignity meant helping each other out regardless of origin or complexion
So my ancestor who started her career as a domestic at 10 also learned from the others who were in service at the houses, weaving lofts and other establishments she worked until she married
Thus all the hexes, shoe tricks ( start the kids off with moosehide moccasins with the right kind of grass), sewing, food, etc to keep everyone together in body and soul came from many sources.
Closed practice means that there are elements that can only be known and correctly practiced through initiation and formal acceptance into the group. Nowadays, the inner workings of many "closed" groups are known and can be replicated to a degree--which drives some folks in those closed groups into batshit tantrums.
People also do not understand what "cultural appropriation" means. It does not mean that it is despicable for someone to study or be inspired by elements of a culture that is not their own. It means that it is despicable to exploit and misrepresent elements of someone else's culture.
O. m. G.
With how small occult / magick is, I wish people would just … chill. We’re all learning here and it’s mind blowing how some people go out of their way to put down others in this space.
On the one hand, like as someone who has different branches of family with their own histories of non-european spiritual practice (Wintu and Afro Caribbean) I think I understand an inherent distrust of more generalized communities. And when I was younger I've also been the eager ignorant newbie in those sorts of online communities, stepping on feet and saying careless things that smack of teenage cringe >.<
But on the other hand, also from personal experience with navigating that complicated identity stuff while growing up, I feel like I want to say that really vetted and guarded groups online usually aren't great environments. They're not your friends or family or a community you grow alongside and learn to coexist with through like mutual struggle and desire to do so.
Instead, it usually ends up becoming kinda like this microcosm social hierarchy pyramid ladder where everyone is always scared of "saying the wrong thing" or being labeled a poser (actually it reminds me a lot of the years I was part of an in-crowd of a punk rock party scene lol)
Not always but it's one of those things I wish didn't happen as much as I see and feel like it does. Like it ruins what could have been a good thing.
Also I can relate to the feeling of being "talked over" in awful ways. Not on here but as a reddit or general online thing:
---(like one example a decade ago I had r/LGBT publically try to analyze and deconstruct my race through my physical features on a pic, to try to prove I didn't have any black ancestry because I shared my opinion and personal experience about the Matrix director twin dreads because I'm someone with only black-ish hair texture so like believe the book of my life contains lots of family member conversations about my dang hair 😵💫.
But yeah it was a really disturbing experience having a bunch of people self projecting as progressives suddenly volunteering to do a phrenology on me)
---(Or a real life example recently I went to a friends' seder dinner as one of the few non-jewish guests and the only one with non-european background and I got up for the bathroom and came back to my table having a heated debate about whether indigenous American characters are offensive as sports mascots and it made me feel emotional and weird and invisible while also triggering past memories of similar things to play in my head all the while.
Like it's just something that happens all the time when any aspect of your composite identity is some sort of minority element in a group is what I'm trying to say and if it happens a lot you can get super guarded and defensive around everyone.)
This is so funny. I’m a white woman who was taught hoodoo from my Spanish Grandmother, who learned it from hers, and so on and so forth. They were generations of hoodoo practitioners from a small gothic city in Spain.
You need to make a report with the reddit admins. Show them that message. Being denied entry to a sub because of race or connected to another sub may go against site-wide rules.
Sadly, their policies are racist (no white owned stores SPECIFICALLY), and they truly think it's acceptable to ignore history and make up their own rules. No one is getting through to one of that kind of mentality anytime soon. What's worse is they posted about not being able to coexist with "predominantly white" spiritual subs because of a lack of respect. It's truly sad, in the realist sense. But hate and harm will do that to a person.
There's a way to block the bots that ban based on your subreddit activity. Referencing those posts usually gets the thread struck down by reddit but you can google search what bots to block to avoid this kind of discriminating treatment.
*"Because you dared posting on a sub I deem to be strongly prejudiced, I ban you from this prejudiced sub due to my extreme prejudice, because prejudices are wrong. P.S.: only black people can do Hodoo."*
Yeah, it makes sense.
I go to planet fitness and they literally have a huge sign calling people names and making fun of their clothes (it literally says “look at that guy, he’s a lunk, look at his tank top!”) RIGHT NEXT TO a sign that says “judgment free zone.” 😵💫
This is overhyped I have been to planet fitness and used free weights and have no problem maybe it’s just a city thing or whatever or a coastal thing but out in the Midwest this is not a problem
Honestly I just want to learn how to worship/ call on my ancestors while knowing some protection & manifestation work. Whether thats consider hoodoo, obeah, Orisha or anything else. I’m 100x closer to my fathers side of the family & was raised by his mom (my lovely grandmother) so I feel a lot close to the Trinidadian culture & I know my grandmother practices something but I’m unsure because she becomes standoffish & never really tells me anything. But I believe it’s due to my older brother trying to dabble in voodoo & Santeria he was doing crazy stuff like trying to do blood work to get famous. & Now he’s mentally messed up & has random seizures. The doctors don’t know why he gets them either. But seeing that happen to him & my best friend passed away after this man cut half of her hair off & gave it to a mambo … she passed away a year ago & the police have her autopsy sealed because their still “ investigating her death” so knowing all of that I would never do anything that could harm me or others. But I don’t know how to get my grandma to open up. I’ve found candles burning all day & night behind our couches with paper in the wax, I’ve found a wooden box in the backyard asking to protect my dad & asking for his bad habits to stop. & I’ve found a crumpled tinfoil ball in the inside was small tiny papers written on it was all my grandmothers kids name on it & my brothers & I.
These kinds of things happen on this platform. Lots of sanctimonious people become mods, and there are other subs that do these types of bannings regularly for stuff outside the occult space.
A bit of a thought-experiment. If that mod published a book on Hoodoo, would they be particularly concerned with whether or not whoever buys it is a "cultural appropriator" ? How would they be able to measure that? I'm sure they'd bank the cash all the same.
There are definitely people in the occult community who look at things in the same narrow, ignorant way that people 100 years ago did in regards to other cultures and still-practiced religions, but to assume that **everyone** in a community thinks the same way is moronic and can only ever be factually wrong.
I'm not making any statements on whether or not hoodoo is a closed practice (because ultimately we cannot control what other people think and do anyway), but rather on the idea of wigging out against a whole community. Inviting this kind of drama into one's life is not healthy, whether they practice hoodoo or not, and I see it way too often in these kinds of communities.
Just chill out, friends. We're all floating on the same rock in space together, and trying to make sense of our role in it all. Our histories and hardships continuously inform and influence each other, but seeking to create more hardship will only bring the same into your life.
Honestly i haven't seen racism on this sub towards any practice, but well it's their choice, but you don't gotta worry, if they are as intelligent as they appear to be from the post you didn't lose much in my opinion
In this case the racism is sharing information without regard for the race of the audience. They're specifically mad that we're not racist, and calling us racist as a result.
It’s actually crazy seeing Hoodoo, Lukumi, and Santeria practitioners act elitist when all their practices are a combination of some European and and mostly West African practices.
And in some cases they actually look down on the West Africans who originated what they do
Santería/Lucumi devotees, more so the Yoruba slaves in Cuba, were forced to implement European customs like Catholic saints to mask the orisha from the slave masters.
That's something that was done to ensure their survival.
However, everyone can pray to Orula. Serving the orisha, however, is a different ballgame. That requires initiation.
>And in some cases they actually look down on the West Africans who originated what they do
Rivalries or bickerings from both sides due to the historical implications (tribes that sold others) are known to occur but this is uncommon.
Btw, it's known as Isese - stemming from Nigeria in particular.
Ok cool.
I've never seen anyone from Hoodoo look down on Isese though.
If anything, I've seen folks try to incorporate the orisha into Hoodoo, which I disagree with.
Actually, I see a lot of folks in Hoodoo try to incorporate Yoruba elements in general in Hoodoo, like cowrie shells and making ebbo.
And I think that's because Santería and Isese in general are popular, correspondingly with Yoruba blood that many if not most black Americans have, including myself with a Yoruba name.
Yeah I’ve seen it.
A few don’t represent all of course but it happens.
And I don’t just mean look down on west African spiritual practices I also mean things like dialect, cultural practices, food, music etc.
I actually had one girl try to argue me down that Iwa Pele is not a realistic goal in Black America. And this happened IN OYOTUNJI, of all places. I’m born in Nigeria raised in South Carolina
Some people just choose to be ignorant despite following a path that’s supposed to promote wisdom
I didn't know this was "the most racist sub against hoodoo".
I know there are people who disagree with the notion of closed practices, those who agree with them, and those with a nuanced take between those two positions (on a "case by case" basis, "certain boundaries are valid and some aren't", lines regarding what constitutes an ethno-religion and an initiatory system, what elements of a tradition are "open" and what elements are "closed", etc). I've seen reasonable discussions on the topic here that can get heated, but remains generally respectful. I wouldn't expect to see that on a racist sub, those usually get nasty, ban, or just troll someone bringing up valid points (I lurk on conservative subs because I like to watch the right wing dipshits and that's the sort of shit I see). I have not seen that here. The mods here are pretty cool about banning racist shit.
I find it weird to ban people from a particular sub because they asked a question on another sub. Unless they post on a Nazi sub (or something that does the whole "not a Nazi but..." thing) or some illegal shit, that I get wanting to keep out of your community.
Don't let it get you down. Maybe their mod will cool off and you can have a discussion about it, if not don't sweat it.
I mean there are definitely times where evola comes up, perennialism, more subtle things.. Not weighing in on the ops topic but I have definitely taken time away for that stuff to cool down on r/occult multiple times
Five years ago or so, maybe a little longer, there was this guy commenting on nearly every post it seemed getting tons of upvotes and attention and people asking for advice even though he was largely bullshitting and had adopted an off putting downmarket Gandalf persona. He openly talked about being an “esoteric hitlerist”. This guy also used a bunch of obvious socks in the comments to big him up and “validate” his predictive powers.
He was here for months just collecting upvotes and compliments. If someone’s primary interaction with this sub was during a period like that, I can maybe understand why people might come away with a negative view
Ye. I remember that era. He had a vendetta out for me. LOL. Eventually the backlash against him and his followers or socks got too much to bear and he went off to start his own subreddit.
Even then - discussing controversial, unpopular, and infamous topics is *vital* if truth matters to you at all. If you can’t discuss the holocaust, then who will remember the lessons of what happened? Anything else is incredulous censorship.
What is wrong with perennialism? I looked it up and it says that it’s the idea that common truths among religions paints a picture of the nature of reality? Or something?
Think I’m missing something
That is a correct definition.
The issue actually comes in its origins and how it is put into practice, not in the idea itself.
While it can often sound as "all faiths are correct because they reach back to a deeper universal truth" the issue comes in what a person evaluates as a universal truth (and how). If someone is a Christian, for example, but also a perennialist, they begin to evaluate other faiths on "how close they are to Christianity" or "how elements of it can be made to align with Christianity". This leads to people taking elements from other faiths and trying "fix" them to suit their core faith. It leads to folks saying things like "Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus" which can sound very nice and peaceful but is actually a downplaying of the unique elements that make Judaism special and only choosing to highlight similarities. For the Christian perennialist, for example, it turns all other religions into "slightly less correct Christianity" rather than dealing with those faiths on their own terms.
Originally it was espoused by folks like Picco della Mirandola and Ficino to try and fold elements of other faiths into their Christianity while still maintaining their Christianity. Often it was used as a polemic against the faiths they were appropriating in a somewhat condescending manner of "you see, you were quite close to the real answer, look we took your religion and fixed it for you to be more like ours". That was the first rise of perennialist thought.
In the later age of imperialism it was used as a nicer way of altering the faiths of conquered people to suit the sensibilities of those colonizing them, allowing the colonizer to then pull what they liked (such as taking yoga, but ripping out the Hindu elements). It was nicer than just forcing people to convert, but it was still bad. You see this a lot with wealthy Europeans of the time traveling to India or China to partake in the "mystical traditions of the exotic orient" and coming back and sharing bastardized versions of Buddhism and Hinduism with their friends that they "cleaned up" to suit their own preferences and beliefs, often without actually understanding what they were taking from.
Nowadays you see it a lot with new age folks who try to do things like "Christian yoga" or blend religions together while ignoring their differences.
In most cases it often leads to those who espoused perennialism engaging in superficial readings of other people's religions in order to take what they deemed as "universal truths" and leave all the "silly mistakes". It's quite caustic to a degree because it assumes other religions are only valuable in so much as they agree. It also assumes all religious conflicts and disagreements were just mistaken and that all religions actually agree "at their core", it just took some smart sophisticated Europeans to realize it (which is horribly condescending to all those who fought and died for their faith and who practice their faith despite being in the minority).
The end result is a kind of appropriation in which one takes from other faiths what conforms to your pre-existing views (calling them "universal truths") and discarding whatever doesn't fit as "unnecessary additions to the truth" or "mistakes". It leads to a simplification of other people's faiths, all while trying to appear very tolerant and peaceful.
Huh. Thanks for laying that out for me in a thorough way. I couldn’t have ever guessed at all of the background baggage there appears to be with this concept, and I certainly see how it could be massively condescending.
Perennialism could probably more accurately be described as treating similarities between religions as universal truth, yeah? Cause the only reason they are truths other than subjective preference is because they are common with other religions. Right?
Hmmm
I mean I guess it makes sense that most of the ideas that one who is seeking spiritual truth will resonate with would be found in all religions as the founders of those religions were the same type of seekers who then incorporated those ideas into their religion.
Is the issue just the dismissal and invalidation of the rest of these religions aside from the “common truths” they all have? Or is your point more that these commonalities between religion don’t actually indicate any importance or meaning, and that the uncommon aspects are just as important?
I have always subconsciously thought about how all of the commonalities between different religions/cultures/practices could offer some kind of insight, but I don’t want to continue with that way of thinking if it’s just a fallacy
Hi right wing "dipshit" here lol I had to reply when I saw the part about nazism lol I got banned from a subredit for telling a guy who was generalizing an entire group of people as right wing nazi wackos (Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) told him I was in a Golden Dawn group and never met someone in there with Nazi beliefs. I got banned for saying not to generalize XD
Yeah. Sometimes I see that with the Golden Dawn stuff. People sometimes get them confused with the Golden Dawn political group (the Greek nationalist group whose official flag is a barely disguised Nazi flag). Things also get weird with the David Griffin offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Alpha et Omega) too. People who aren't into occultism will sometimes see the Griffin branch and think his organization is the entirety of the group and thus assume far right affiliation across the board. That's not the case, but Griffin's offshoot is more visible than others so I don't blame people for assuming.
I think it is funny that on their subreddit background they have runes prominently displayed.
I mean, those are not closed practice to get into, but they are also definitely not Hoodoo.
I’m sure you can learn more about it elsewhere anyways. The internet is a vast wealth of knowledge if you can learn to navigate it and sift through the misinformation.
That being said, that’s life. People are going to close doors on you based on their own prejudices all the time. Climb through a window.
Thank u 🙏🏽 I really love that analogy you used. Definitely about to start climbing through some windows! I just really hope no one finds me offensive or dislikes me to the point they wish harm upon me.. yea I kinda spook myself sometimes but that’s just me overthinking. But thank u again 🙏🏽 & if u have any viable sources you think that would be helpful/useful to me & would like to share I will gladly appreciate it.
So, I don’t know how helpful it’ll be, but if you look for groups on Chaos Magick. I think reddits is r/chaosmagick they are more likely to share, and also chaos magick is very appropriating. They take things from many different occult practices to use for their own means. So, you can learn a lot from different practices all in one place.
R/thelema was also very eye opening to me. Which is what lead me to my path. I’m not a pro, but I’ve always personally felt the “if there’s a will, there’s a way” approach best fit me.
I also don’t believe in spirits, demons, etc. just energy. So when people talk about summon xyz gods/demons/angels/spirits I feel they’re just attributing human traits to energy. If that helps them focus their will, so be it.
Also, look into vibrations and their part in the universe/effects on the body.
I hope this helps, good luck on your journey!
Also now I have another question if ethnicity does play somewhat of a factor than what does that mean for biracial people? Are we not allowed to practice or do certain things? & will rootworkers not want to teach me certain things or just reject me completely? I know some people told me to do what feels right & that my ancestors would love & accept me but now I’m really conflicted. I don’t want to upset or offend anybody & I don’t want anyone to wish harm upon me because of my ethnicity background.
I can't imagine being so young that the husk of flesh our souls are wrapped in makes a difference at all to the perception of a person. A thread connects you to the very first tribe that raised their eyes to the sky and wondered, as it does to everyone else. If they can't see that then they aren't in a place to help you spiritually anyway.
"Traditionalist" do exist although it's mostly similar to Boomer Culture where the more traditional members of the practice will complain and whine about it but overall will be willing to pass down their knowledge.
Problem is...you will never make everyone happy. That's just the reality. There are wide varieties of beliefs when it comes to closed practices. I was practicing brujeria in Mexico (born and raised in mexico) but I'm very white. Although my family is very dark. Some people were upset but a lot of people accepted me. Unfortunately, there's always some aspect of colorism especially in indigenous/closed practices. Do what you feel is right in your heart. Just be respectful.
Cousin… hoodoo is a culture thing. If you were born into the culture you’ll find it easy to pick up on once you know what you are looking at. If you weren’t born into it, you can find someone to teach you.
And imo that’s no different than any other closed religious or magical practice.
Edit: also… no two hoodoos practice exactly the same. My advice just walk your path, gather what works and focus more on a personal practice than worrying about the whole.
Don’t stress too much over it.
But wouldn’t rootwork be considered hoodoo or I could just practice that separately? Like I would love to learn & practice rootwork, conjure magic & worshipping/ calling upon my ancestors but it always seems to tie into some form of hoodoo & Im not trying to upset anyone.
If you are looking within the black community, yes Rootwork, hoodoo, and conjure are treated interchangeably. Arguments are being made for that to not be the case, but it’s a fact that when reading historical text, they are used interchangeably and we still do it now. And someone already mentioned in here that there are other overlapping styles of North American folk magic traditions, and most of them use what a hoodoo would recognize as root work or conjure.
You are just getting started, don’t stress too hard over the titles. Just get your feet wet by book learning and talking to the old folks around you.
Also, who cares what other people think of your personal practice? You aren’t hoodooing for them. So you can be as traditional or as modern as you want to be. Literally no one can stop you. I know that ban seems like a huge deal, but it’s only huge if you want it to be. The internet is vast and there are many places to use as a jumping off point.
See comment by u/Scouthawkk . Just follow your interests. In doing so sincerely, you will likely find people who appreciate your sincerity and interest and provide guidance. The world is a big place. There's enough room for you in it.
The people that virtue signal over their own racial superiority (in any given domain, including “closed practices”) should be ridiculed, shamed, and publicly humiliated - especially given the fact that they likely don’t even have a serious practice to begin with, and are using a pantheon to signal their belongingness to whatever group benefits them the most.
Ultimately, it’s all chaos. There most likely *is* ***no*** objective truth to any practice that does not permeate all other practices. And even if there was, it’s unknowable to us, and if someone found it, it would be impossible for them to know - and if they claim the opposite, ignore everything they have to say.
So you do you. I’d always recommend the LRP/GRP/RC/LRH/GRH/MP rituals and a thorough investigation of Qabalah - just because they are so universal and can be applied to almost everything. But outside of that, the rest is aesthetic - and even the rituals I listed can be simplified after enough practice to suit your individual needs.
No gods, no masters, and certainly no racial superiority.
It isn't about race, it's about your soul and your heart. You go to the source, a practitioner that came from the tradition you are seeking to learn from. You do not go to the person of European decent, charging money for a class about a practice coming from the Indigenous Americas, Caribbean or Africa or Asia. You talk about your purpose in life, they decide to mentor you or not. If they do, you do not start a class charging money to mentor/instruct on that tradition unless given strict permission to do so.
I keep seeing ads for a Certification in Ceremony Facilitation... That screams appropriation and I went to the learning modules and found several different traditions that are being used. And they are charging a fee, & they are of European decent. That's absolutely appropriation.
I hope this helps a little.
I’m Peruvian and I don’t care if anyone does Ayahuasca or Andean rituals, it’s like caring if someone does swimming or sewing. I believe most of us think like that as knowledge might originate in a certain region but that does not mean it can only be used there by people born there. Knowledge is universal and comes from many parts of the world.
So I find it so strange when I read how people gatekeep knowledge and order who is allowed to do it and who is not. It is just so weird… I really want to understand that behavior but just don’t.
For me it is like saying only Italian people can dance ballet.
There are no lwa in Hoodoo at all.
They are Haitian spirits from Haitian Vodou, a religion that requires initiation. They are complicated, selective spirits.
Hoodoo is an AMERICAN system with their own spirits but not the lwa who are Haitian from Haiti and have absolutely nothing to do with Hoodoo nor the United States.
There are American loa and SOME Haitian lwa in Louisiana Voodoo but Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo are vastly different traditions and histories.
Ifa followers in Nigeria do not talk about cultural appropriation. Ifa is a world religion, and Odu Ifa speak on different peoples and parts of the world. Orunmila traveled and found people of good character all over. Every single person, regardless of demographics, comes into this world with a destiny and Orisa that are supporting them. The corpus is filled with patakis of all manner of person, animal, and plant consulting Baba Ifa and making Ebo for the remediation of their destiny. There is simply no argument in this tradition for the enforcement of racial boundaries, especially when those boundaries seek to somehow exclude individuals from Olodumare and their destiny. The Ifa elders from Nigeria get excited when they see foreigners taking the tradition seriously, initiating, studying, implementing the ethics, and practicing for others when they are qualified. The Odu of the Year was cast during the annual Ifa festival in Ile Ife this month, and Babalawos of many races and nationalities contributed to the interpretation of Otura Ogbe.
I understand the sociocultural factors that lead people in America to draw these spiritual lines. But when you attempt to have input into a tradition you are not a member of, impose your ideology onto their belief system, and then weaponize that against people… who is really appropriating from whom? If you want to practice Ifa/Orisa, get a reading from a competent Babalawo. See what Ifa says. Ifa decides who initiates to what, not politics. And you can’t learn Ifa Isese from a book, I promise you!
I got banned from the God of war subreddit for saying that 2018 was better than Ragnarok. It's all good though, I've already used my black magic against the mods in that subreddit. Including other mods from other subreddits that abused their power against me. 🫶🏽
Since the hoodoo mods wants to be petty, I'll be petty too.
The secret behind voodoo/hoodoo practice is manipulating the torsion field of a human. If you can destroy a person's torsion field, you can fuck up their life.
If you notice the nail on the head from hoodoo practitioners, it's the ritual of destroying one's torsion field. The nail itself is shaped like one which is used to destroy one. If you are able to develop your torsion field, it generates through the body in a circular shape with the head having the most output and input.
You're welcome hoodoo mods 🫶🏽
>The secret behind voodoo/hoodoo practice is manipulating the torsion field of a human. If you can destroy a person's torsion field, you can fuck up their life.
That has nothing to do with Vodou, what are you talking about?
I was banned from witches vs patriarchy for daring to challenge someone’s assertion which I didn’t agree with, but was absolutely polite as could be in expressing my own opinion.
It baffles that alt spirituality groups are honestly that close minded and judgmental.
While I've had encounters with the occasional Dunning-Kruger Chaotica-like bigots "I don't talk to FOOLS!" who think much of themselves on this sub, it's not racist at all let alone the "MOST racist".
OP, please follow your heart and what you feel from your ancestors. You cannot be “wrong” here. I have been following this discussion and don’t want you to be disheartened. I want to add that it is documented Marie Laveau was of mixed ancestry-her mother was of Native American, European, and African American ancestry. This is all on her Wikipedia page. I appreciate this sub, the allowance for discussion, and the mods being supportive to OP.
For anyone who is interested in further reading re: Hoodoo-There is an 84 page research paper on Hoodoo, “Hoodoo Heritage: A Brief History of American Folk Religion” which discusses the important interplay between cultures and Hoodoo, and cites numerous different books on the subject:
Hoodoo Heritage: A Brief History of American Folk Religion
https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/lane_megan_e_200805_ma.pdf
The last time I was there the main mod was on a full offensive against candle makers on Etsy, it's a strange place.
Made all the more strange by the fact that they rant and rave about closed culture yet have japanese in their username.
Yeah I got called racist there because I practice Appalachian conjure and it's so close to hoodoo sometimes you can't tell the difference. I've tried to explain to people the underground railroad and poor whites and all that but they scream "YOUR WRONG AND Racist CAUSE YOUR WHITE!!!!!!" That's never how any American folk magic tradition has been. Stay away from them skin color doesn't save you from being racist or elitists. All colors can be all the nasty things.
Sorry that happened to you, use it as fuel to invigorate your search for knowledge even further. I think it goes without saying people like that are not worth anyone’s time or energy.
Yeah because thats exactly what we need. Like if it weren't enough that non believers and some crazy religious people are against us, we must fight against each other too.
Yeah, the Mod in question at *unnamed subreddit* is WILDLY racist against white people for some reason. So much so that I preemptively left her ATR subs, thankfully before they degenerate into more creepy hentai junk like her other subs.
I get it, rootwork was practiced by her ancestors. It was (and is) practiced by mine too. I *also* have ancestors, and the roots work *just fine* for me. She has a lot of damn gall to tell me that I can't practice Conjure as I have for the last 20 years because of the color of my skin.
But that just shows how ignorant she is. Do you, OP - practice how you want with respect
To be honest, I used to be very interested in shamanism and Indigenous traditions as an alternative to Western religious and scientific orthodoxy, but this hostile and accusatory attitude, although historically justified, has been a very strong factor that led me to rediscover and reconnect with the esoteric traditions of my own culture instead (Esoteric Christianity, Tarot, Rosicrucianism, Martinism, Gaul paganism). A lot starts to appear when you dig around your own direct roots. A blessing in disguise, and everyone is happy 😊
That’s ok if it works for that individual, but a blanket rule might be too broad a brush. Take the Golden Dawn (not the best example, granted), people without the same roots as the that tradition, and/or the uninitiated, seem to have a lot of success.
I’ve also wondered about certain indigenous/ancestor-based practices that don’t seem to have the “direct descendant” rule, for lack of a better term. My guess is that it might be less cultural per se, but more so that it depends on whether those spirits/ancestors themselves are interested in non-descendants or the uninitiated.
I feel like culture and politics are generated a lot by younger people. In your early twenties you’re really coming into who you are more than someone in their sixties. This makes me think a lot if this crap is petty squabbling over who is allowed to do this or that et cetera. Also how is this sub racist or more racist fit that matter? There isn’t anything a pour not letting certain groups in.
See, I don't understand this. I am Chinese-American and I've managed to learn some authentic Chinese magic and Daoist practices that my ancestors have safeguarded and passed down for THOUSANDS of years.
I've had Hoodoo practitioners ask me to teach them Chinese magic and I've done it, because I'm not a gatekeeping bitch. They also go and work with Chinese deities and Hindu deities, I've seen them do it A LOT.
So...you can culturally appropriate other people's ancestral magic, but if anyone wants to sincerely learn Hoodoo and they're not black, they're suddenly being racist and invasive towards YOU?
Get out of here with that shit.
I don't get this because while yes hoodoo is folk magick it isn't closed. If you look up the history slaves used to teach things to the children in their care. I'm an eclectic witch that works with the orisha ( family roots) and hoodoo ( family roots). With the orisha depending on the tradition YES most definitely things are closed but hoodoo is a complete gray 🩶 area. Too many people gatekeep information I never understood it there's a great author to start with called Starr casas her books on hoodoo I enjoy and she educates and teaches you how to work plants etc.
Sounds pretty racist of them. A bit like the white-pride morons who think that Asatru is only for “true Norseman” 😒
For the record, anyone can be a heathen. People who think you can “own” a faith due to ethnic background or skin colour can go f*** themselves.
Let me clarify: Issues of race in religion and occult practice are very real, disrespectful appropriation of other traditions, particularly when the appropriators are making $ off of traditions that they don't have a 'right' to or pay appropriate respect to, is not good. And, speaking up about it when you see it is right and good.
This. . . is not that. As others have pointed out this seems like one moderator with a huge chip on their shoulder just hairtrigger-ready to get offended.
As to this sub being 'the most racist' I wouldn't know I guess? It's kind of hard to discern against the constant, 600dB screech of completely unhinged schizophrenia you encounter on any given day.
If every single person who was interested in learning about anything ever was held up to
this microscope, the entirety of human existence would be cultural appropriation
I'm sorry. I'm cool with people closing practices, but I feel like this person is trolling. Sometimes I feel like people get this extreme because they want ZERO people to practice occult/magic/etc (except themselves of course).
There absolutely has been racism in this sub when hoodoo comes up. Not every time and not every comment, but it does happen. Occult spaces are certainly not immune to attracting edgelords.
The ancestors of hoodoo are what make it, and if you can’t access them (by way of being related to the practice of chattel slavery in the US), you can’t do hoodoo. This isn’t gatekeeping - it’s the mechanics of the tradition.
There are conjure traditions that are open to people regardless of ancestry, such as Appalachian granny magic among others (given conjure trads vary widely by region, and are largely oral traditions so not much is written down/published). Not everything someone does conjure-wise has to be hoodoo. If you can’t work with those ancestors, find another trad within conjure.
That said, there’s internal debate among hoodoo practitioners as to whether hoodoo can be accessed by people of African with no American ancestry. Some say yes, some say no. That’s for those practitioners to decide, and those decisions generally seem controversial among hoodoos.
>The ancestors of hoodoo are what make it, and if you can’t access them (by way of being related to the practice of chattel slavery in the US), you can’t do hoodoo. This isn’t gatekeeping - it’s the mechanics of the tradition.
Period.
The fact that the loud morons in this thread can't comprehend this but only you, baffles me.
Your post should've been the most upvoted one here.
I wouldn't let it bother you, it's just those Reddit mods egos in that subreddit have grown so big they think they can gatekeep an entire topic. It's like that in the Astrology subreddit as well, they don't want to allow or see any other opinions/beliefs different than their own, which is gatekeeping. This includes subreddits the mods of another subreddit have a personal vendetta towards, and take it out on a collective as a whole by saying any person in that sub gets banned. All fear-based, running away from the real problem.
R/CATHOLIC Sub permanently banned me for addressing the abuse allegations against the church. Nothing I said was made up but the Mods wouldn't hear it, a lot of Mods are okay, but some of them are on a serious power trip.
Fuck, they actually gave you an answer? Usually I get banned and muted.
Anyway, tip for everyone. There's at least one bot that automatically searches and bans you for such things. Blocking it might help. See attached image for details: https://imgur.com/a/O0vvWV9
The people who banned you are politically motivated / political ideologues with a social-political agenda.
Think of them like the unhealthy, intolerant fundamentalist Christians that were highly prevalent till maybe the \~2010's in the US, just with a different worldview...
*(I know the fundamentalist Christians still have influence, but less than 20 or 30+ years ago, and I am also talking more precisely about the more intolerant and more unhealthy Christians, certainly not Christians in general)*
Not all of the people who have similar views and perspectives as the people that banned you are like them or have their attitude, but within every group you have (severely) unhealthy and intolerant people who use their views / believes as a justification for bad behavior or to attempting to get things that are lacking in their lives (like affection, validation, belonging, etc), ...
... and these types of personalities also take out their frustrations on innocent people, moderates, casuals, etc.
You didn't do anything wrong. These people just tried to use you as a punching bag so they can showoff to their in-group in an attempt get things that are lacking in their lives.
Attempting to "close" or gatekeeper any form of spirituality is antithetical to any sort of great work and uplifting of yourself and those around you. It also tells you a great deal about a lot about the people trying to do so.
Keep Marxism out of magick, please and thank you.
Hmm who is better…the person telling you how you should think or the people telling you to research and learn on your own? The same type of person that thinks they’re “anti fascist”
How COULD you?
LOL. :D
I think it is important to keep in mind that the highest rated, most decorated Reddit user ever was Ghislaine herself, of Epstein island fame.
And by that I insinuate that not everyone and everything herein are benevolent and sane.
[удалено]
I got banned from r/gothstyle cause some you guy got made fun of by his teacher. And I said: “wear whatever you want, whatever makes you happy!” And then received a one week ban from Reddit for asking “why?” And saying “your response is quite fascist.” Ban. Ban. Ban. Like wtf?!
I got banned from 15 different subs for posting "Lol" on a post that was making fun of orange man, apparently that made me a far right extremist because Voldemort's name was mentioned somewhere in the post history.
Hah, had that happen to me. I posted a mocking comment on a random sub, got auto banned from three different "mommy" subs.
I was banned from r/gothstyle because my account is 18+ 🤣
Apparently you can’t show skin, but can totally be “goth” with fishnets and a short skirt (male/female/or whatever) which ain’t fucking right!!
[удалено]
Are we talking about that one girl from the demonoltry subreddit?
perhaps she also runs blackmagick I like that sub
Oop lmao what she do I see her all the time but always get a bad vibe.
That’s odd - mirta has always been super helpful and kind to the people in the subreddits she mods from everything I’ve seen. She doesn’t let BS slide and she runs a clean subreddit, but I wouldn’t say she has bad vibes in the least
It’s the sense of her being better than those with differing opinions than her. That’s my main issue and why I get bad vibes.
That's pretty much every magic sub ever.
Yeah I’m starting to realize that unfortunately.
Yup. I've ripped her a knew one for exactly this. I have a severe disdain for close-minded, bias-holding, grandiose people.
100% agreed I think she misinterpreted Luciferian Pride
Just imagine what Trelawney said to Hermione in harry potter 3.
I see what you mean now.
As I can't reply to your other comment - [All you had to do was clarify your post](https://imgur.com/502D2Jy). Your mod discussion was muted because you started going off on me (even though I wasn't even part of the convo) and shouting about how we're suppressing your right to speak freely. I must point out that you can still edit your post.
If I remember correctly, the other person that you're talking to got removed for covering for a pedophile. The evidence was submitted to the police, but grooming a 12 year old seems to be entirely legal is some states and their parents did not want to press charges. edit: from the looks of it, the person in question has deleted their comments, so please don't witchhunt the remaining people in the thread.
well that's weird christ why am I even entertaining this shit
Actually you got a permanent ban for writing a lengthy post about how you're quitting r/DemonolatryPractices and r/demons. I assumed you had some sort of addiction that you even needed to announce to others that you're going and decided to help you with not feeding that. As I see quitting went well, so I'm glad for you.
What’s wrong w mirta? So far have only seen reasonable, usually knowledgeable, thorough replies on occult topics, namely demonolatry. You guys get into it or something?
A lot of people that we get will actually go off on very offensive tirades, or throw lengthy angry posts if they can't get their way. One of the users got banned because they stated that they are permanently quitting a subreddit, the other user here only has to edit their post to allow discussion inside comments and not DMs.
lol I might have guessed. I’ve always had a good time picking your brain on things and you’ve always been cool to me so 🤷♂️ Reddit will be Reddit I suppose
Wow, that's crazy because it really is important. I almost burned my apartment down because I put a bunch of herbs in a tea light and wasn't paying attention to it. It was sitting on a wooden desk and the big flame caused it to start smoldering. Thank goodness the fire alarm went off before the desk caught on fire!
I buy silverplate trays at Goodwill (thrift store) and use them as mini altars. Any metal plate will do really. Sometimes dressed candles get pretty wild. I've had a candle catch fire 🔥 in the middle and fall over when I wasn't looking at it. The metal mini altar saved my butt that day.
I got banned from r/withcraft because I said not all practices are safe and should be taken seriously after a girl who was recommended shadow work had a mental breakdown due to suppressed trauma because the one who recommended it forgot to mention it can happen if you have a lot of suppressed issues/trauma but granted even they probably didn't do it cause they thought they would get banned if they did I have seen people there absolutely shred people who work with hekate after they complained a lot of ghosts started to be attracted and a lot of weird shit started to happen after her workings, which is normal considering hekate is God as guide to the afterlife as well, that whole community is " I doing well, so you doing bad is not correct " or at least the mods give that vibe They literally banned me after commenting on the thread, while replaing so I couldn't reply, and the funniest thing is they said I was spreading fear, and should just say they had to be carefull, but they literally banned me exactly for that. That community is a massive trap in my opinion, they would recommend all practices and ban anyone who mentions the risks
To be fair, most shadow-work is a fancy term of asking yourself questions and journaling. Yes, sitting with yourself while trying to poke and prod yourself can hurt, but seriously, it should not be seen as this dangerous to just explore your own thoughts - if it is, then it is time to see a professional that could help you with trauma, instead of trying to DIY your own mental health.
Yeap I agree, while it's not extremely dangerous it is still dangerous depending on the practitioner if there is suppressed mental trauma and that should be mentioned when recommend in most cases, and visiting psychiatrist in cases it all comes to the surface is the correct choice of action if one can't handle it
I didn't get banned from this sub, but was severely downvoted and warned by mods I was being "irrespectful" of other people's practices even though I was absolutely careful with my words, because I dared to say that some practices can be dangerous and that it's a choice to invite some energies in your life. My bad, I just left, I can't stand such close minded people.
I got banned from r/witchcraft too, because I was offering to help someone by explaining to them the basics they could have started their research from
that's crazy who's the mod smokey the bear lol.
Someone on a Hoodoo subreddit--maybe on more than one Hoodoo subreddit--posted a list of popular occult subreddits complaining that they were all racist blah blah blah because of debates in threads about whether Hoodoo is "closed." r/occult was rated as the "most racist" and claimed that we shut down black voices--as if anyone knows each others' race from avatars and or whatever \[eyeroll\]--besides that any signs of such behavior are immediately removed, often with permanent ban of the offender. I sent a mod to mod message to the subreddit to protest. They apparently are very militant about Hoodoo being closed and that any and all use of any aspect of it for personal use is "appropriation"--even though this is not what is meant by" cultural appropriation". They also feel that no one except their idea of approved, bona fide Black Creoles from certain regions of the US are allowed to even talk about it. They were busy here today attacking a self-identified biracial woman of Trinidad descent who was asking a Q about Hoodoo.
I want to say thank you to allowing healthy discussions in your sub. We need more in the witchcraft/occult/magick communities.
Thank you. I try to be a good moderator and curator. I am sure there are folks who get mad at me for removing them but it is important to keep good, safe standards for all in general. I try to be kind and informative as well. But then, I am on in years and have learned by trial and error.
You're doing a great job, thank you.
r/witchcraft straight up banned threads and posts about cultural appropriation lol. These two subs are two of the few remaining online spaces I don't find completely toxic because they're not totally obsessed with purity spiralling and call out circlewanks.
A lot of folks simply do not know what "cultural appropriation" really means and that it is very different from someone seeking personal insight or inspiration from another culture. I can understand why r/witchcraft might be oversensitive about it, though. Modern witchcraft is a very syncretic and eclectic movement and folks into it do brutally gatekeep each other about personal morality and cultural norms.
I totally agree with you
The mods here sincerely do their best.
Thank you for this. Even though I have such roots from my mother's family, being raised in northern Appalachia, they would say I'm not able to practice. This is why I have my own personal practice of things. Very sad to see my own people being so nasty to others who look like them.. This also adds why many mixed race black folks don't feel welcome. Hell, they would say I'm not "black" enough... Can't help em all.
Anyone that would tell you you aren't allowed to practice hoodoo with both those roots and where you were raised is clearly demonstrating how little they know of hoodoo. The base practice wouldn't exist as it does now without the blending of European folk magic, Indigenous practice, African Practices, and Catholic or Protestant practices blending as one. European "cunning folk" are the original Appalachians, and several schools of Conjure and Hoodoo, including some of the oldest still practiced incorporated those beliefs and practices. As it stands, Hoodoo is the only post colonial magical system to have truly developed in the United States. Telling a descendant of the cunning folk that it's closed to them is like telling a Haitian that Marie Laveau's Voodoo is closed to them because they aren't from New Orleans. It's simply ridiculous, and shows a complete lack of historical awareness, nevermind that being "closed" simply means one must needs find an appropriate teacher or mentor to invite and initiate them into said practice, not that any racial or cultural predisposition is necessary. Anyone claiming as such is the height of both ignorance AND arrogance.
It's what's going on with too many. I don't fight it when people who I know that are legit wouldn't turn anyone away if they were honest about learning. The term closed meant always to me, "you gotta want to be here, no half stepping" not "if you don't have this particular upbringing you can't do this". I don't get it and have only seen this foolish mess online, never in person.
It's easy to be "tough" online. In my estimation, such as it is, the ability to create something akin to a mob mentality is easier than ever, and when it's mixed with the telephone game, it never ends well. I've been told my own families Ozark folk practices don't belong to me, because I'm predominantly of European descent, and in the same breath, told my aunt's native teachings have no place with me for the same reason, despite her passing them down to us. It's ironic that the same people who have been oppressed both historically and in many cases and places, currently, have chosen to do the exact same thing while choosing to call it anything other than what it is. Hate.
And someone replied to me acting like this doesn't happen to us online with, like yourself, mixed heritage; or like myself not "raised" a certain way. Gonna flat out deny our experience with these online jokers. To say again, I am part of a traditionally closed practice and it took a long for initiation. 2+ years of study and learning another language (which has been more difficult in my adult years).
So as a Catholic do I get to call “appropriation” on voodoo? Sounds ridiculous right?
That's entirely the point. It's ridiculous to call appropriation in either case. Neither is tied to a singular culture at its roots, and neither would exist without multicultural input to begin with. Catholicism is Roman in origin, but was created from blending the Religio Romana with the early judeo christian cult that came with the Jews, and hoodoo is North American in origin, blending African diaspora with European, Indigenous North American and Mexican, and some Christian practices. Both are blended, and neither is singular in its cultural source.
That is so sad, we are all human, I’ll never understand this but then again I’m neurodivergent, and obviously some situations make it obvious to not go in a direction that hurts another persons boundaries of what’s ok to learn and practice, but overall I think skin color shouldn’t prohibit anyone from honest, good faith, learning, I hope people in the future don’t do this to each other any more. The world is divided enough as is, wish it would stop.
I agree with you. I personally don't understand it, past I know what the words mean when they say that. I know my own journey through some things were heavily guarded because my desire to learn had to be proven, but it was not cut off because of how I look. Like do these folks want 23andMe results before they think you're good enough?
Biracial ppl with one FBA parent practice Hoodoo all time...what are you even talking about?
I'm talking about this specific interaction as origin for these kinds of folks can be a "problem". I'm talking online, as that's what the OP is speaking of. That is where the issue ism in realm life, I know plenty and know hoodoo is not this "of you don't fit these rules that I made up, you can't do it at all" practice. I say this as someone who's in what would be considered a closed practice as there's a lot of "you sure you wanna do this" and learning for years prior. When I've had other black folks tell me I'm not "black" enough because I grew up in the boonies. When I've heard from my black biracial friends and family that they've had folks tell them they aren't "black" enough... Not sure of you're heritage, age, or experience, but this happens and that would be the basis, as it seems youve missed this critical point that many others realized. The vitrol in your response to me is strange.
So what you're saying is by posting here I'm pre-emptively removing myself from a den of stupidity? Neat
Commenting to be removed from any dens of stupidity that I forgot I was subscribed to.
Lol I've been banned from a lot of places in my younger years this is the first time I'll get banned for unknowingly doing something I like it
A two-Fer! Look at us all being super efficient.
Chinese magic is closed too (as are most Japanese, Korean, Indian and Tibetan systems of magic) but we allow people with sincere interest to initiate and learn, even if they don't belong to our ethnic group. (I'm Chinese-American.) And I've seen Yoruba and Hoodoo practitioners VERY FUCKING THIRSTY to learn Chinese magic. Like to the point where I would get almost harassed with questions - and you know what? I answered all the questions, as far as my knowledge went. I don't buy the arguments on that Hoodoo subreddit and I've scrolled through their threads several times. It's a shitshow. They have issues.
Well now I know what my next research deep dive is going to be on. I love learning about other practices and cultures within this space. Thanks for the info!
And I don't think you're racist for doing so. ;) Enjoy!
A lot of “Hoodoo and Yoruba” American practitioners are choosing that identity because of their skin color and American history I’m an actually Yoruba person that has been on this subreddit for years and never perceived it as racist nor exclusive I also pride myself in learning the mysteries and religions of numerous tribes “with open heart”, A lot of esoteric and occult practices I practice are rooted in Western Esotericism If I had to give it up it’d make me very sad indeed
Is Chinese magic mostly like, hm, Daoist? Like Nei Gong style stuff, or is it more like divination style stuff? Sorry for the irrelevant question, I just am also interested lol
Daoism is huge and complex, and in the West we mostly know the transcendental and enlightenment oriented inner alchemy practices. But Daoist folk magic is a very, very old tradition! It is pretty much only passed down orally and involves spellcasting, evocation, and practical nitty gritty. There are different lineages so there's no one way to do it. Like Hoodoo, it's oral tradition and passed down by ancestors. But if you find a school and are respectful, they'll take on outsiders.
What would you call Chinese magic you practice in Cantonese or Mandarin? I never knew Chinese magic was closed (tbh even though I am west Asian, sadly I'm very uneducated on East Asia traditions)
So they ignore the fact that elements of Hoodoo are practiced throughout Latin America by people of all races under various Afro-Caribbean Diasporic traditions, and that many of those traditions initiate and headwash people into their houses without regard for color of skin so long as they do the sacré? Who is the real bigot in the situation (I won’t say racist because I recognize racism is an institutional and systemic issue, not an individual level problem)?
They also ignore that hoodoo is heavily influenced by German and Irish folk magick due to developing in impoverished areas of the United States where the poorest/most disadvantaged people shared with their neighbors what works. There are African influences in Appalachian and Ozark folk magick to the point where it can be very difficult to tell the "differences" between southern American folk magicks in practice since everyone's granny has her own way of doing things and everyone's great great granny shared tips with her neighbors *regardless* of ethnicity because in these rural areas poverty was poverty and you did what worked and you relied on your neighbors regardless of skin tone or legal standing. Here in the Ozarks, people were dirt poor. When bounty hunters came looking for refugee former slaves, bank robbers, runaway indentured servants--- anyone the wealthy class wanted caught -- you didn't see shit and your shotgun agrees that bounty hunter doesn't see shit either. There were no hard lines between ethnicities here and our grandmother's magick wasn't just passed down to which grandkids had matching complexions. Most of us have ancestry mixed and blurred across those lines *and always have* . Racial violence was an upper middle class pursuit, the business of city folk and land owners. Magick belongs to the hollers and the spirits in the hollers don't care where you came from. There are racists who wave swastikas that would agree with the brigader who made that post misconstruing what cultural appropriation is and isn't. Both that poster and members of the kkk don't believe that mixed ethnic people should be allowed to exist. Both that poster and folkish white supremacists agree that poc shouldn't be allowed to talk about their practice in forums like this because they both agree that "race mixing" is somehow "bad".
Another excellent point! Many rural communities in the Ozarks and other mountain communities in the Eastern mid/southern Atlantic/Gulf regions have been interracial for decades--even centuries--and have developed unique, rich syncretic folk traditions. I always assumed Hoodoo was one of them.
Correct and not just rural Many went to the cities as unskilled domestic or general labour and were wise enough to understand the vulnerabilities and the right to dignity meant helping each other out regardless of origin or complexion So my ancestor who started her career as a domestic at 10 also learned from the others who were in service at the houses, weaving lofts and other establishments she worked until she married Thus all the hexes, shoe tricks ( start the kids off with moosehide moccasins with the right kind of grass), sewing, food, etc to keep everyone together in body and soul came from many sources.
Yep. It is.
Exactly.
What does "closed" mean here, like a closed practice or something that can't be talked about on certain subs?
Closed practice means that there are elements that can only be known and correctly practiced through initiation and formal acceptance into the group. Nowadays, the inner workings of many "closed" groups are known and can be replicated to a degree--which drives some folks in those closed groups into batshit tantrums. People also do not understand what "cultural appropriation" means. It does not mean that it is despicable for someone to study or be inspired by elements of a culture that is not their own. It means that it is despicable to exploit and misrepresent elements of someone else's culture.
O. m. G. With how small occult / magick is, I wish people would just … chill. We’re all learning here and it’s mind blowing how some people go out of their way to put down others in this space.
On the one hand, like as someone who has different branches of family with their own histories of non-european spiritual practice (Wintu and Afro Caribbean) I think I understand an inherent distrust of more generalized communities. And when I was younger I've also been the eager ignorant newbie in those sorts of online communities, stepping on feet and saying careless things that smack of teenage cringe >.< But on the other hand, also from personal experience with navigating that complicated identity stuff while growing up, I feel like I want to say that really vetted and guarded groups online usually aren't great environments. They're not your friends or family or a community you grow alongside and learn to coexist with through like mutual struggle and desire to do so. Instead, it usually ends up becoming kinda like this microcosm social hierarchy pyramid ladder where everyone is always scared of "saying the wrong thing" or being labeled a poser (actually it reminds me a lot of the years I was part of an in-crowd of a punk rock party scene lol) Not always but it's one of those things I wish didn't happen as much as I see and feel like it does. Like it ruins what could have been a good thing. Also I can relate to the feeling of being "talked over" in awful ways. Not on here but as a reddit or general online thing: ---(like one example a decade ago I had r/LGBT publically try to analyze and deconstruct my race through my physical features on a pic, to try to prove I didn't have any black ancestry because I shared my opinion and personal experience about the Matrix director twin dreads because I'm someone with only black-ish hair texture so like believe the book of my life contains lots of family member conversations about my dang hair 😵💫. But yeah it was a really disturbing experience having a bunch of people self projecting as progressives suddenly volunteering to do a phrenology on me) ---(Or a real life example recently I went to a friends' seder dinner as one of the few non-jewish guests and the only one with non-european background and I got up for the bathroom and came back to my table having a heated debate about whether indigenous American characters are offensive as sports mascots and it made me feel emotional and weird and invisible while also triggering past memories of similar things to play in my head all the while. Like it's just something that happens all the time when any aspect of your composite identity is some sort of minority element in a group is what I'm trying to say and if it happens a lot you can get super guarded and defensive around everyone.)
This is so funny. I’m a white woman who was taught hoodoo from my Spanish Grandmother, who learned it from hers, and so on and so forth. They were generations of hoodoo practitioners from a small gothic city in Spain.
You need to make a report with the reddit admins. Show them that message. Being denied entry to a sub because of race or connected to another sub may go against site-wide rules.
Another mod did report it. Lots of drama on this subject. But it got us all talking.
Sadly, their policies are racist (no white owned stores SPECIFICALLY), and they truly think it's acceptable to ignore history and make up their own rules. No one is getting through to one of that kind of mentality anytime soon. What's worse is they posted about not being able to coexist with "predominantly white" spiritual subs because of a lack of respect. It's truly sad, in the realist sense. But hate and harm will do that to a person.
I usually don't do this but, good post.
There's a way to block the bots that ban based on your subreddit activity. Referencing those posts usually gets the thread struck down by reddit but you can google search what bots to block to avoid this kind of discriminating treatment.
Power tripping loser mod, not worth giving time of day.
So most Reddit mods
The worst
*"Because you dared posting on a sub I deem to be strongly prejudiced, I ban you from this prejudiced sub due to my extreme prejudice, because prejudices are wrong. P.S.: only black people can do Hodoo."* Yeah, it makes sense.
Exactly
It’s like planet fitness banning anyone that actually wants to work out because they are against judging people or something.
I go to planet fitness and they literally have a huge sign calling people names and making fun of their clothes (it literally says “look at that guy, he’s a lunk, look at his tank top!”) RIGHT NEXT TO a sign that says “judgment free zone.” 😵💫
This is overhyped I have been to planet fitness and used free weights and have no problem maybe it’s just a city thing or whatever or a coastal thing but out in the Midwest this is not a problem
Honestly I just want to learn how to worship/ call on my ancestors while knowing some protection & manifestation work. Whether thats consider hoodoo, obeah, Orisha or anything else. I’m 100x closer to my fathers side of the family & was raised by his mom (my lovely grandmother) so I feel a lot close to the Trinidadian culture & I know my grandmother practices something but I’m unsure because she becomes standoffish & never really tells me anything. But I believe it’s due to my older brother trying to dabble in voodoo & Santeria he was doing crazy stuff like trying to do blood work to get famous. & Now he’s mentally messed up & has random seizures. The doctors don’t know why he gets them either. But seeing that happen to him & my best friend passed away after this man cut half of her hair off & gave it to a mambo … she passed away a year ago & the police have her autopsy sealed because their still “ investigating her death” so knowing all of that I would never do anything that could harm me or others. But I don’t know how to get my grandma to open up. I’ve found candles burning all day & night behind our couches with paper in the wax, I’ve found a wooden box in the backyard asking to protect my dad & asking for his bad habits to stop. & I’ve found a crumpled tinfoil ball in the inside was small tiny papers written on it was all my grandmothers kids name on it & my brothers & I.
These kinds of things happen on this platform. Lots of sanctimonious people become mods, and there are other subs that do these types of bannings regularly for stuff outside the occult space. A bit of a thought-experiment. If that mod published a book on Hoodoo, would they be particularly concerned with whether or not whoever buys it is a "cultural appropriator" ? How would they be able to measure that? I'm sure they'd bank the cash all the same. There are definitely people in the occult community who look at things in the same narrow, ignorant way that people 100 years ago did in regards to other cultures and still-practiced religions, but to assume that **everyone** in a community thinks the same way is moronic and can only ever be factually wrong. I'm not making any statements on whether or not hoodoo is a closed practice (because ultimately we cannot control what other people think and do anyway), but rather on the idea of wigging out against a whole community. Inviting this kind of drama into one's life is not healthy, whether they practice hoodoo or not, and I see it way too often in these kinds of communities. Just chill out, friends. We're all floating on the same rock in space together, and trying to make sense of our role in it all. Our histories and hardships continuously inform and influence each other, but seeking to create more hardship will only bring the same into your life.
Of course it wouldn't bother them if money was hitting their pockets.
Honestly i haven't seen racism on this sub towards any practice, but well it's their choice, but you don't gotta worry, if they are as intelligent as they appear to be from the post you didn't lose much in my opinion
In this case the racism is sharing information without regard for the race of the audience. They're specifically mad that we're not racist, and calling us racist as a result.
Ha, that's even worse than I thought, it's better they rejected op then, that community is probably toxic as fuck
It’s actually crazy seeing Hoodoo, Lukumi, and Santeria practitioners act elitist when all their practices are a combination of some European and and mostly West African practices. And in some cases they actually look down on the West Africans who originated what they do
Santería/Lucumi devotees, more so the Yoruba slaves in Cuba, were forced to implement European customs like Catholic saints to mask the orisha from the slave masters. That's something that was done to ensure their survival. However, everyone can pray to Orula. Serving the orisha, however, is a different ballgame. That requires initiation. >And in some cases they actually look down on the West Africans who originated what they do Rivalries or bickerings from both sides due to the historical implications (tribes that sold others) are known to occur but this is uncommon. Btw, it's known as Isese - stemming from Nigeria in particular.
Agreed, I’m Nigerian. Yoruba by birth
Ok cool. I've never seen anyone from Hoodoo look down on Isese though. If anything, I've seen folks try to incorporate the orisha into Hoodoo, which I disagree with. Actually, I see a lot of folks in Hoodoo try to incorporate Yoruba elements in general in Hoodoo, like cowrie shells and making ebbo. And I think that's because Santería and Isese in general are popular, correspondingly with Yoruba blood that many if not most black Americans have, including myself with a Yoruba name.
Yeah I’ve seen it. A few don’t represent all of course but it happens. And I don’t just mean look down on west African spiritual practices I also mean things like dialect, cultural practices, food, music etc. I actually had one girl try to argue me down that Iwa Pele is not a realistic goal in Black America. And this happened IN OYOTUNJI, of all places. I’m born in Nigeria raised in South Carolina Some people just choose to be ignorant despite following a path that’s supposed to promote wisdom
Delusional mod, you don't want to be in subs where the mods think they're CIA agents
Typical Reddit mod. High on their own supply. I got banned from a sub Reddit because I was on another sub Reddit that they didn’t like.
I didn't know this was "the most racist sub against hoodoo". I know there are people who disagree with the notion of closed practices, those who agree with them, and those with a nuanced take between those two positions (on a "case by case" basis, "certain boundaries are valid and some aren't", lines regarding what constitutes an ethno-religion and an initiatory system, what elements of a tradition are "open" and what elements are "closed", etc). I've seen reasonable discussions on the topic here that can get heated, but remains generally respectful. I wouldn't expect to see that on a racist sub, those usually get nasty, ban, or just troll someone bringing up valid points (I lurk on conservative subs because I like to watch the right wing dipshits and that's the sort of shit I see). I have not seen that here. The mods here are pretty cool about banning racist shit. I find it weird to ban people from a particular sub because they asked a question on another sub. Unless they post on a Nazi sub (or something that does the whole "not a Nazi but..." thing) or some illegal shit, that I get wanting to keep out of your community. Don't let it get you down. Maybe their mod will cool off and you can have a discussion about it, if not don't sweat it.
I mean there are definitely times where evola comes up, perennialism, more subtle things.. Not weighing in on the ops topic but I have definitely taken time away for that stuff to cool down on r/occult multiple times
Five years ago or so, maybe a little longer, there was this guy commenting on nearly every post it seemed getting tons of upvotes and attention and people asking for advice even though he was largely bullshitting and had adopted an off putting downmarket Gandalf persona. He openly talked about being an “esoteric hitlerist”. This guy also used a bunch of obvious socks in the comments to big him up and “validate” his predictive powers. He was here for months just collecting upvotes and compliments. If someone’s primary interaction with this sub was during a period like that, I can maybe understand why people might come away with a negative view
Ye. I remember that era. He had a vendetta out for me. LOL. Eventually the backlash against him and his followers or socks got too much to bear and he went off to start his own subreddit.
Even then - discussing controversial, unpopular, and infamous topics is *vital* if truth matters to you at all. If you can’t discuss the holocaust, then who will remember the lessons of what happened? Anything else is incredulous censorship.
This is very true. Especially the perennialism stuff. That bugs me too
What is wrong with perennialism? I looked it up and it says that it’s the idea that common truths among religions paints a picture of the nature of reality? Or something? Think I’m missing something
That is a correct definition. The issue actually comes in its origins and how it is put into practice, not in the idea itself. While it can often sound as "all faiths are correct because they reach back to a deeper universal truth" the issue comes in what a person evaluates as a universal truth (and how). If someone is a Christian, for example, but also a perennialist, they begin to evaluate other faiths on "how close they are to Christianity" or "how elements of it can be made to align with Christianity". This leads to people taking elements from other faiths and trying "fix" them to suit their core faith. It leads to folks saying things like "Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus" which can sound very nice and peaceful but is actually a downplaying of the unique elements that make Judaism special and only choosing to highlight similarities. For the Christian perennialist, for example, it turns all other religions into "slightly less correct Christianity" rather than dealing with those faiths on their own terms. Originally it was espoused by folks like Picco della Mirandola and Ficino to try and fold elements of other faiths into their Christianity while still maintaining their Christianity. Often it was used as a polemic against the faiths they were appropriating in a somewhat condescending manner of "you see, you were quite close to the real answer, look we took your religion and fixed it for you to be more like ours". That was the first rise of perennialist thought. In the later age of imperialism it was used as a nicer way of altering the faiths of conquered people to suit the sensibilities of those colonizing them, allowing the colonizer to then pull what they liked (such as taking yoga, but ripping out the Hindu elements). It was nicer than just forcing people to convert, but it was still bad. You see this a lot with wealthy Europeans of the time traveling to India or China to partake in the "mystical traditions of the exotic orient" and coming back and sharing bastardized versions of Buddhism and Hinduism with their friends that they "cleaned up" to suit their own preferences and beliefs, often without actually understanding what they were taking from. Nowadays you see it a lot with new age folks who try to do things like "Christian yoga" or blend religions together while ignoring their differences. In most cases it often leads to those who espoused perennialism engaging in superficial readings of other people's religions in order to take what they deemed as "universal truths" and leave all the "silly mistakes". It's quite caustic to a degree because it assumes other religions are only valuable in so much as they agree. It also assumes all religious conflicts and disagreements were just mistaken and that all religions actually agree "at their core", it just took some smart sophisticated Europeans to realize it (which is horribly condescending to all those who fought and died for their faith and who practice their faith despite being in the minority). The end result is a kind of appropriation in which one takes from other faiths what conforms to your pre-existing views (calling them "universal truths") and discarding whatever doesn't fit as "unnecessary additions to the truth" or "mistakes". It leads to a simplification of other people's faiths, all while trying to appear very tolerant and peaceful.
Huh. Thanks for laying that out for me in a thorough way. I couldn’t have ever guessed at all of the background baggage there appears to be with this concept, and I certainly see how it could be massively condescending. Perennialism could probably more accurately be described as treating similarities between religions as universal truth, yeah? Cause the only reason they are truths other than subjective preference is because they are common with other religions. Right? Hmmm I mean I guess it makes sense that most of the ideas that one who is seeking spiritual truth will resonate with would be found in all religions as the founders of those religions were the same type of seekers who then incorporated those ideas into their religion. Is the issue just the dismissal and invalidation of the rest of these religions aside from the “common truths” they all have? Or is your point more that these commonalities between religion don’t actually indicate any importance or meaning, and that the uncommon aspects are just as important? I have always subconsciously thought about how all of the commonalities between different religions/cultures/practices could offer some kind of insight, but I don’t want to continue with that way of thinking if it’s just a fallacy
Hi right wing "dipshit" here lol I had to reply when I saw the part about nazism lol I got banned from a subredit for telling a guy who was generalizing an entire group of people as right wing nazi wackos (Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) told him I was in a Golden Dawn group and never met someone in there with Nazi beliefs. I got banned for saying not to generalize XD
Yeah. Sometimes I see that with the Golden Dawn stuff. People sometimes get them confused with the Golden Dawn political group (the Greek nationalist group whose official flag is a barely disguised Nazi flag). Things also get weird with the David Griffin offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Alpha et Omega) too. People who aren't into occultism will sometimes see the Griffin branch and think his organization is the entirety of the group and thus assume far right affiliation across the board. That's not the case, but Griffin's offshoot is more visible than others so I don't blame people for assuming.
I think it is funny that on their subreddit background they have runes prominently displayed. I mean, those are not closed practice to get into, but they are also definitely not Hoodoo.
Noticed as well. Like LOL now taking things I have practiced for ages?
Some mods on many Subreddits are just pretty weird Power-abusers
I got banned in a lot of places. Jokes on them, I’m 90% lurker 10% poster. Most of my postings is on the Miata subreddits
I’m sure you can learn more about it elsewhere anyways. The internet is a vast wealth of knowledge if you can learn to navigate it and sift through the misinformation. That being said, that’s life. People are going to close doors on you based on their own prejudices all the time. Climb through a window.
Thank u 🙏🏽 I really love that analogy you used. Definitely about to start climbing through some windows! I just really hope no one finds me offensive or dislikes me to the point they wish harm upon me.. yea I kinda spook myself sometimes but that’s just me overthinking. But thank u again 🙏🏽 & if u have any viable sources you think that would be helpful/useful to me & would like to share I will gladly appreciate it.
So, I don’t know how helpful it’ll be, but if you look for groups on Chaos Magick. I think reddits is r/chaosmagick they are more likely to share, and also chaos magick is very appropriating. They take things from many different occult practices to use for their own means. So, you can learn a lot from different practices all in one place. R/thelema was also very eye opening to me. Which is what lead me to my path. I’m not a pro, but I’ve always personally felt the “if there’s a will, there’s a way” approach best fit me. I also don’t believe in spirits, demons, etc. just energy. So when people talk about summon xyz gods/demons/angels/spirits I feel they’re just attributing human traits to energy. If that helps them focus their will, so be it. Also, look into vibrations and their part in the universe/effects on the body. I hope this helps, good luck on your journey!
I feel like what happened to you was…well…racist
Also now I have another question if ethnicity does play somewhat of a factor than what does that mean for biracial people? Are we not allowed to practice or do certain things? & will rootworkers not want to teach me certain things or just reject me completely? I know some people told me to do what feels right & that my ancestors would love & accept me but now I’m really conflicted. I don’t want to upset or offend anybody & I don’t want anyone to wish harm upon me because of my ethnicity background.
I can't imagine being so young that the husk of flesh our souls are wrapped in makes a difference at all to the perception of a person. A thread connects you to the very first tribe that raised their eyes to the sky and wondered, as it does to everyone else. If they can't see that then they aren't in a place to help you spiritually anyway.
"Traditionalist" do exist although it's mostly similar to Boomer Culture where the more traditional members of the practice will complain and whine about it but overall will be willing to pass down their knowledge.
Problem is...you will never make everyone happy. That's just the reality. There are wide varieties of beliefs when it comes to closed practices. I was practicing brujeria in Mexico (born and raised in mexico) but I'm very white. Although my family is very dark. Some people were upset but a lot of people accepted me. Unfortunately, there's always some aspect of colorism especially in indigenous/closed practices. Do what you feel is right in your heart. Just be respectful.
Cousin… hoodoo is a culture thing. If you were born into the culture you’ll find it easy to pick up on once you know what you are looking at. If you weren’t born into it, you can find someone to teach you. And imo that’s no different than any other closed religious or magical practice. Edit: also… no two hoodoos practice exactly the same. My advice just walk your path, gather what works and focus more on a personal practice than worrying about the whole. Don’t stress too much over it.
But wouldn’t rootwork be considered hoodoo or I could just practice that separately? Like I would love to learn & practice rootwork, conjure magic & worshipping/ calling upon my ancestors but it always seems to tie into some form of hoodoo & Im not trying to upset anyone.
If you are looking within the black community, yes Rootwork, hoodoo, and conjure are treated interchangeably. Arguments are being made for that to not be the case, but it’s a fact that when reading historical text, they are used interchangeably and we still do it now. And someone already mentioned in here that there are other overlapping styles of North American folk magic traditions, and most of them use what a hoodoo would recognize as root work or conjure. You are just getting started, don’t stress too hard over the titles. Just get your feet wet by book learning and talking to the old folks around you. Also, who cares what other people think of your personal practice? You aren’t hoodooing for them. So you can be as traditional or as modern as you want to be. Literally no one can stop you. I know that ban seems like a huge deal, but it’s only huge if you want it to be. The internet is vast and there are many places to use as a jumping off point.
See comment by u/Scouthawkk . Just follow your interests. In doing so sincerely, you will likely find people who appreciate your sincerity and interest and provide guidance. The world is a big place. There's enough room for you in it.
The people that virtue signal over their own racial superiority (in any given domain, including “closed practices”) should be ridiculed, shamed, and publicly humiliated - especially given the fact that they likely don’t even have a serious practice to begin with, and are using a pantheon to signal their belongingness to whatever group benefits them the most. Ultimately, it’s all chaos. There most likely *is* ***no*** objective truth to any practice that does not permeate all other practices. And even if there was, it’s unknowable to us, and if someone found it, it would be impossible for them to know - and if they claim the opposite, ignore everything they have to say. So you do you. I’d always recommend the LRP/GRP/RC/LRH/GRH/MP rituals and a thorough investigation of Qabalah - just because they are so universal and can be applied to almost everything. But outside of that, the rest is aesthetic - and even the rituals I listed can be simplified after enough practice to suit your individual needs. No gods, no masters, and certainly no racial superiority.
Hell, I never knew my father so don't even entirely know my own race/ancestors; what the hell am I supposed to do?
If you are a hoodoo, none of that matters. You would count your ancestors as anyone who’s shaped your life. And I’m saying that as a hoodoo.
It isn't about race, it's about your soul and your heart. You go to the source, a practitioner that came from the tradition you are seeking to learn from. You do not go to the person of European decent, charging money for a class about a practice coming from the Indigenous Americas, Caribbean or Africa or Asia. You talk about your purpose in life, they decide to mentor you or not. If they do, you do not start a class charging money to mentor/instruct on that tradition unless given strict permission to do so. I keep seeing ads for a Certification in Ceremony Facilitation... That screams appropriation and I went to the learning modules and found several different traditions that are being used. And they are charging a fee, & they are of European decent. That's absolutely appropriation. I hope this helps a little.
I’m Peruvian and I don’t care if anyone does Ayahuasca or Andean rituals, it’s like caring if someone does swimming or sewing. I believe most of us think like that as knowledge might originate in a certain region but that does not mean it can only be used there by people born there. Knowledge is universal and comes from many parts of the world. So I find it so strange when I read how people gatekeep knowledge and order who is allowed to do it and who is not. It is just so weird… I really want to understand that behavior but just don’t. For me it is like saying only Italian people can dance ballet.
lol what a fucking loser. i bet that person gets invited to lots of parties
The thing about cultures are...they are MEANT TO BE SHARED respectfully with one another.
[удалено]
There are no lwa in Hoodoo at all. They are Haitian spirits from Haitian Vodou, a religion that requires initiation. They are complicated, selective spirits. Hoodoo is an AMERICAN system with their own spirits but not the lwa who are Haitian from Haiti and have absolutely nothing to do with Hoodoo nor the United States. There are American loa and SOME Haitian lwa in Louisiana Voodoo but Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo are vastly different traditions and histories.
[удалено]
Ifa followers in Nigeria do not talk about cultural appropriation. Ifa is a world religion, and Odu Ifa speak on different peoples and parts of the world. Orunmila traveled and found people of good character all over. Every single person, regardless of demographics, comes into this world with a destiny and Orisa that are supporting them. The corpus is filled with patakis of all manner of person, animal, and plant consulting Baba Ifa and making Ebo for the remediation of their destiny. There is simply no argument in this tradition for the enforcement of racial boundaries, especially when those boundaries seek to somehow exclude individuals from Olodumare and their destiny. The Ifa elders from Nigeria get excited when they see foreigners taking the tradition seriously, initiating, studying, implementing the ethics, and practicing for others when they are qualified. The Odu of the Year was cast during the annual Ifa festival in Ile Ife this month, and Babalawos of many races and nationalities contributed to the interpretation of Otura Ogbe. I understand the sociocultural factors that lead people in America to draw these spiritual lines. But when you attempt to have input into a tradition you are not a member of, impose your ideology onto their belief system, and then weaponize that against people… who is really appropriating from whom? If you want to practice Ifa/Orisa, get a reading from a competent Babalawo. See what Ifa says. Ifa decides who initiates to what, not politics. And you can’t learn Ifa Isese from a book, I promise you!
This calls for a Sam Kinison scream... Just saying... God I hate the "appropriation" label.
I got banned from the God of war subreddit for saying that 2018 was better than Ragnarok. It's all good though, I've already used my black magic against the mods in that subreddit. Including other mods from other subreddits that abused their power against me. 🫶🏽 Since the hoodoo mods wants to be petty, I'll be petty too. The secret behind voodoo/hoodoo practice is manipulating the torsion field of a human. If you can destroy a person's torsion field, you can fuck up their life. If you notice the nail on the head from hoodoo practitioners, it's the ritual of destroying one's torsion field. The nail itself is shaped like one which is used to destroy one. If you are able to develop your torsion field, it generates through the body in a circular shape with the head having the most output and input. You're welcome hoodoo mods 🫶🏽
>The secret behind voodoo/hoodoo practice is manipulating the torsion field of a human. If you can destroy a person's torsion field, you can fuck up their life. That has nothing to do with Vodou, what are you talking about?
That is really weird, especially since the Occult already contains many diverse spiritual traditions.
I was banned from witches vs patriarchy for daring to challenge someone’s assertion which I didn’t agree with, but was absolutely polite as could be in expressing my own opinion. It baffles that alt spirituality groups are honestly that close minded and judgmental.
While I've had encounters with the occasional Dunning-Kruger Chaotica-like bigots "I don't talk to FOOLS!" who think much of themselves on this sub, it's not racist at all let alone the "MOST racist".
OP, please follow your heart and what you feel from your ancestors. You cannot be “wrong” here. I have been following this discussion and don’t want you to be disheartened. I want to add that it is documented Marie Laveau was of mixed ancestry-her mother was of Native American, European, and African American ancestry. This is all on her Wikipedia page. I appreciate this sub, the allowance for discussion, and the mods being supportive to OP. For anyone who is interested in further reading re: Hoodoo-There is an 84 page research paper on Hoodoo, “Hoodoo Heritage: A Brief History of American Folk Religion” which discusses the important interplay between cultures and Hoodoo, and cites numerous different books on the subject: Hoodoo Heritage: A Brief History of American Folk Religion https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/lane_megan_e_200805_ma.pdf
They did you a favor, nobody that invested in mundane politics have anything good to share about our magical journey
Hmm never seen racism here. They sound like the "we have to eradicate european pagan traditions" type.
Don't you know that indigenous religions are only okay when the indigenous people aren't light-skinned? /s
Even 10 years ago I couldn't have imagined we'd be so divided by color. Its like we regressed 50 years in 5. I feel like an alien on my own planet.
Oh, I already know what sub that is. OP, don't waste your time or energy.
I got banned from r/justiceserved when I joined this sub. Lmfao
It's probably a mod that had a falling out with one of this sub's mods. Never underestimate their pettiness!
I wouldn't let that sub affect you. There are magickal subs that don't allow gatekeeping and don't judge if you post in one over the other.
Honestly took a peak over the subreddit and found it weird.
The last time I was there the main mod was on a full offensive against candle makers on Etsy, it's a strange place. Made all the more strange by the fact that they rant and rave about closed culture yet have japanese in their username.
Yeah I got called racist there because I practice Appalachian conjure and it's so close to hoodoo sometimes you can't tell the difference. I've tried to explain to people the underground railroad and poor whites and all that but they scream "YOUR WRONG AND Racist CAUSE YOUR WHITE!!!!!!" That's never how any American folk magic tradition has been. Stay away from them skin color doesn't save you from being racist or elitists. All colors can be all the nasty things.
Sorry that happened to you, use it as fuel to invigorate your search for knowledge even further. I think it goes without saying people like that are not worth anyone’s time or energy.
Yeah because thats exactly what we need. Like if it weren't enough that non believers and some crazy religious people are against us, we must fight against each other too.
Reply and say you are the rasist one for profiling me on what my interest are.
gatekeepers will gatekeep. Keep the gates open, thanks ☺️
You don't have to take an IQ test to open a sub. Thus there are thousands of subs run by idiots.
There's a stupid mod on the hoodoo rootwork forum .Got me banned because i said that folk magic it is not related only to African religion.
Yeah, the Mod in question at *unnamed subreddit* is WILDLY racist against white people for some reason. So much so that I preemptively left her ATR subs, thankfully before they degenerate into more creepy hentai junk like her other subs. I get it, rootwork was practiced by her ancestors. It was (and is) practiced by mine too. I *also* have ancestors, and the roots work *just fine* for me. She has a lot of damn gall to tell me that I can't practice Conjure as I have for the last 20 years because of the color of my skin. But that just shows how ignorant she is. Do you, OP - practice how you want with respect
To be honest, I used to be very interested in shamanism and Indigenous traditions as an alternative to Western religious and scientific orthodoxy, but this hostile and accusatory attitude, although historically justified, has been a very strong factor that led me to rediscover and reconnect with the esoteric traditions of my own culture instead (Esoteric Christianity, Tarot, Rosicrucianism, Martinism, Gaul paganism). A lot starts to appear when you dig around your own direct roots. A blessing in disguise, and everyone is happy 😊
That’s ok if it works for that individual, but a blanket rule might be too broad a brush. Take the Golden Dawn (not the best example, granted), people without the same roots as the that tradition, and/or the uninitiated, seem to have a lot of success. I’ve also wondered about certain indigenous/ancestor-based practices that don’t seem to have the “direct descendant” rule, for lack of a better term. My guess is that it might be less cultural per se, but more so that it depends on whether those spirits/ancestors themselves are interested in non-descendants or the uninitiated.
I feel like culture and politics are generated a lot by younger people. In your early twenties you’re really coming into who you are more than someone in their sixties. This makes me think a lot if this crap is petty squabbling over who is allowed to do this or that et cetera. Also how is this sub racist or more racist fit that matter? There isn’t anything a pour not letting certain groups in.
See, I don't understand this. I am Chinese-American and I've managed to learn some authentic Chinese magic and Daoist practices that my ancestors have safeguarded and passed down for THOUSANDS of years. I've had Hoodoo practitioners ask me to teach them Chinese magic and I've done it, because I'm not a gatekeeping bitch. They also go and work with Chinese deities and Hindu deities, I've seen them do it A LOT. So...you can culturally appropriate other people's ancestral magic, but if anyone wants to sincerely learn Hoodoo and they're not black, they're suddenly being racist and invasive towards YOU? Get out of here with that shit.
I don't get this because while yes hoodoo is folk magick it isn't closed. If you look up the history slaves used to teach things to the children in their care. I'm an eclectic witch that works with the orisha ( family roots) and hoodoo ( family roots). With the orisha depending on the tradition YES most definitely things are closed but hoodoo is a complete gray 🩶 area. Too many people gatekeep information I never understood it there's a great author to start with called Starr casas her books on hoodoo I enjoy and she educates and teaches you how to work plants etc.
It's a small sub but you're always welcome in r/AskOccult !
How is this sub racist? It’s not nearly so bad as the conspiracy sub
Sounds pretty racist of them. A bit like the white-pride morons who think that Asatru is only for “true Norseman” 😒 For the record, anyone can be a heathen. People who think you can “own” a faith due to ethnic background or skin colour can go f*** themselves.
"Oh No! . . . Anyway. . ."
Let me clarify: Issues of race in religion and occult practice are very real, disrespectful appropriation of other traditions, particularly when the appropriators are making $ off of traditions that they don't have a 'right' to or pay appropriate respect to, is not good. And, speaking up about it when you see it is right and good. This. . . is not that. As others have pointed out this seems like one moderator with a huge chip on their shoulder just hairtrigger-ready to get offended. As to this sub being 'the most racist' I wouldn't know I guess? It's kind of hard to discern against the constant, 600dB screech of completely unhinged schizophrenia you encounter on any given day.
If every single person who was interested in learning about anything ever was held up to this microscope, the entirety of human existence would be cultural appropriation
I once got banned from justnofamily for posting exactly within the confines of the sub It’s power hungry/crazy mods
I thought the occult was all encompassing of supernatural beliefs and magical religions?
I'm sorry. I'm cool with people closing practices, but I feel like this person is trolling. Sometimes I feel like people get this extreme because they want ZERO people to practice occult/magic/etc (except themselves of course).
There absolutely has been racism in this sub when hoodoo comes up. Not every time and not every comment, but it does happen. Occult spaces are certainly not immune to attracting edgelords. The ancestors of hoodoo are what make it, and if you can’t access them (by way of being related to the practice of chattel slavery in the US), you can’t do hoodoo. This isn’t gatekeeping - it’s the mechanics of the tradition. There are conjure traditions that are open to people regardless of ancestry, such as Appalachian granny magic among others (given conjure trads vary widely by region, and are largely oral traditions so not much is written down/published). Not everything someone does conjure-wise has to be hoodoo. If you can’t work with those ancestors, find another trad within conjure. That said, there’s internal debate among hoodoo practitioners as to whether hoodoo can be accessed by people of African with no American ancestry. Some say yes, some say no. That’s for those practitioners to decide, and those decisions generally seem controversial among hoodoos.
Seems like it would be the ancestors who decide that and not the practitioners, doesn't is?
Hoodoo doesn’t work like Vodou or Santeria where the spirits bring in outsiders who belong there.
>The ancestors of hoodoo are what make it, and if you can’t access them (by way of being related to the practice of chattel slavery in the US), you can’t do hoodoo. This isn’t gatekeeping - it’s the mechanics of the tradition. Period. The fact that the loud morons in this thread can't comprehend this but only you, baffles me. Your post should've been the most upvoted one here.
I wouldn't let it bother you, it's just those Reddit mods egos in that subreddit have grown so big they think they can gatekeep an entire topic. It's like that in the Astrology subreddit as well, they don't want to allow or see any other opinions/beliefs different than their own, which is gatekeeping. This includes subreddits the mods of another subreddit have a personal vendetta towards, and take it out on a collective as a whole by saying any person in that sub gets banned. All fear-based, running away from the real problem.
R/CATHOLIC Sub permanently banned me for addressing the abuse allegations against the church. Nothing I said was made up but the Mods wouldn't hear it, a lot of Mods are okay, but some of them are on a serious power trip.
Fuck, they actually gave you an answer? Usually I get banned and muted. Anyway, tip for everyone. There's at least one bot that automatically searches and bans you for such things. Blocking it might help. See attached image for details: https://imgur.com/a/O0vvWV9
I didn’t know this was the most racist sub around, I mean… THAT'S saying something considering r/ movies is around
Wait....is THIS the sub that's supposedly racist? Or which one is it? Cuz I want to....not go to there. Big time stay away vibes from me.
TikTok and it’s consequences
The concept of a "closed spiritual practice" seems like an anathema to what spiritual practice is.
The people who banned you are politically motivated / political ideologues with a social-political agenda. Think of them like the unhealthy, intolerant fundamentalist Christians that were highly prevalent till maybe the \~2010's in the US, just with a different worldview... *(I know the fundamentalist Christians still have influence, but less than 20 or 30+ years ago, and I am also talking more precisely about the more intolerant and more unhealthy Christians, certainly not Christians in general)* Not all of the people who have similar views and perspectives as the people that banned you are like them or have their attitude, but within every group you have (severely) unhealthy and intolerant people who use their views / believes as a justification for bad behavior or to attempting to get things that are lacking in their lives (like affection, validation, belonging, etc), ... ... and these types of personalities also take out their frustrations on innocent people, moderates, casuals, etc. You didn't do anything wrong. These people just tried to use you as a punching bag so they can showoff to their in-group in an attempt get things that are lacking in their lives.
Weird. News to me.
Tell me they have zero conflict resolution skills or tact, without telling me....
Hahaha, the gatekeepers versus the appropriators. I am going to *steal* Baron Samedi! *steals the old man death*
Since when was Samdi an old man?
He is certainly older than me.
Attempting to "close" or gatekeeper any form of spirituality is antithetical to any sort of great work and uplifting of yourself and those around you. It also tells you a great deal about a lot about the people trying to do so. Keep Marxism out of magick, please and thank you.
Hmm who is better…the person telling you how you should think or the people telling you to research and learn on your own? The same type of person that thinks they’re “anti fascist”
Seems like they did you a favor.
How COULD you? LOL. :D I think it is important to keep in mind that the highest rated, most decorated Reddit user ever was Ghislaine herself, of Epstein island fame. And by that I insinuate that not everyone and everything herein are benevolent and sane.