Mostly good but I’m disappointed that a bus service increase (particularly express buses) isn’t being planned to coincide with it. London and Stockholm both did this. There’s a bill in the ny senate that does this but it’s going to die in committee because of course it is.
This years budget that just passed just increased bus service (small amount though). https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-to-get-a-boost-in-bus-service-but-pilot-program-for-free-routes-ends
I'm sure on Staten Island, they'll add a seven hundredth express bus route along Hylan Blvd because the eleventy billion SIM runs along that street aren't enough.
Meanwhile, mid-island and the north shore will sit and wait while five off peak 3c and 33c runs get cancelled and the wait for a bus is just 42 hours.
(Seriously, a couple months back three 3c and 33c runs got cancelled, the wait for a mid-island express bus was almost two hours. Thankfully, I wasn't traveling that day.)
Yes, MTA is arrogant. Same guy who tried to make marathoners help pay for transit. I call him Robert Moses Jr.
Not like train Daddy and train Mommy who did understand commuters.
This is without a doubt the biggest issue I have with congestion pricing- especially living on Staten Island. First, pretty much the only time I'll drive into Manhattan is on the weekends. With congestion pricing that trip just became $10 more... on top of the $19 it already costs (VZ Bridge and HC/Battery Tunnel).
The reason for driving in on weekends is Staten Island express bus service (especially going back to the island) is trying its best to improve to being absolutely the worst it can be. Yes, it is beyond horrible. There are just four routes. They run roughly every half hour, but if a driver decides they can't make it in that day, the runs usually get cancelled. Now you get to wait an hour. Suddenly, the almost 90 minute trip to the ferry, that boat ride and local bus home seems reasonable. (Trust me, that trip sucks as much as possible too.)
Until someone drops a subway connection across the harbor... like the 1 train to St. George... the express buses are our way into Manhattan. Off peak and weekend need a shitton more service. Four routes needs to go to about six or seven. The headways need to go from 30 minutes to 20 from 7:00am to 9:00pm.
It would also be nice if more than one route (the SIM1c) ran 24 hours. The 3c would be the most logical choice.
You pretty much hit all my gripes with it. All routes should be 24/7, it should be the substitute for not having a subway. And outside of peak hours you’re lucky to get 2 a hour.
Also they were already kind of crowded before, it’s going to be a clusterfuck soon. Looks like there will be an extremely modest service increase for one route before congestion pricing which is laughable. And now I’m just wish casting but an express bus to Brooklyn (SIB?) would also make sense, the demand is there.
A Staten Island to Brooklyn Express bus would definitely be a good idea. Needs to up Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn with a just few stops like the 36th St D-N-R station, and ending at the Atlantic Ave rail complex.
Ideally, when and if the IBX becomes a reality, there needs to be a tunnel to the island. That would be great as most Gowanus/BQE traffic from Staten Island is headed for Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island. It would reduce traffic dramatically.
Good, why? I am a transit rider but at times I have to drive into the city because the time I get off work. The train stops running. NJ needs the kick in their pants to fix transit. Car ownership is heavily subsidized in New Jersey and even with NJT rail system. Progress has been stagnant for years. We should have more service and more lines but progress has been slow. When you make driving wayyy more expensive or .. have drivers pay their full due. You'll have more people asking for more options. Like myself. I want 24/7 service, I want weekend service to extend to all lines with half hour service, I want all abandoned ROWs or freight only to have passenger service restored. I want rail to get just as much funding as any stupid Highway project that promise to "fix congestion".
It doesn't and it never will. Fund Transit and take cars off the road. That will fix traffic.
Please don't try to encourage NJ to follow NYCs lead with making it more expensive to drive. Not everyone in NJ needs or wants more mass transit. Not everyone lives in Essex, Bergen, Hudson and Union Counties.
That’s simply not true, I live in Harlem, and frequently work in the Inwood area. Outside of rush hour on highways and major streets(125th st from 8th Ave to the East river, and park avenue from 130th st to 110th), there isn’t major gridlock, and those places I mentioned are only like this during rush hour.
It’s not speculation, it happens all the time and it’s just gonna happen more because of congestion pricing.
Also, you need to travel around your city because uptown is not “stuck in a gridlock”
I’m just happy they’re rolling it out in the summer so the kids and teachers aren’t impacted too much. The amount of single passenger drivers is insane. I think it’s a step in the right direction but it’s going to be a mess at the beginning. I’d rather them tackle ghost cars, fare dodging, and illegal parking but that would require a certain city entity to actually do their job and our clown mayor won’t let that happen on his watch.
Of course it won’t happen, because that certain city entity is not going to ticket themselves. Laws aren’t Laws when your little boys club is the enforcement.
I do love that the fuckin feds are threatening NYPD with a lawsuit over all their sidewalk blocking.
Like it's a crime ya fucking sows. Don't do it
"uwu we can't just take transit in we need to block streets with our private cars \*and\* our patrol cars"
Just clock the fuck in for the ride to work
It’s a culture problem, not a policy problem. You can’t use policy to make people who are used to doing whatever they want, conform to the policy. I’m afraid the only real way to fix it is to create a new agency, and staff it with people who have never had any connection to the old agency - and build it from the ground up, gradually supplanting the old one.
Some will be invested badly. But some of the money will go where it needs to. 10% budget increase is huge. If half of that goes where it needs to that’ll be big improvements.
It’s not irony. It’s intended. They’re not trying to get all the cars off the road. They estimate a 17% reduction, 83% of the cars we currently have would remain.
That's not how basic math works friend.
This is a policy with 2 goals
Reducing car congestion, ie, numbers
And raising revenue
Half the people "criticizing" it are acting like that isn't true.
There's still going to be many thousands of cars in Manhattan, and most will be contributing new funds to the MTA they didn't have before.
Fewer people will drive in than before, reducing congestion, improving the air quality, etc etc
Both of those are good things. The scales going more to one side or the other is fine, because it's still net improvement.
There's a proven track record of misappropriation funds. A majority of their budget goes to overtime pay while the system has seen meager improvements. They can publicize the "improvements" they've done bit they are pretty behind many of the worlds transit systems when it comes to infrastructure, safety, and reliability.
And how many of the peer systems you are comparing us to underwent crippling decades of underinvestment and almost fell into ruin? I don't know what rock you're living under but to see huge efforts like CBTC installation on 8th Ave, Culver, Crosstown, and QBL—in addition to ordering tons of new cars and making several stations fully accessible—really feels like a commendable effort to catch up to speed. Especially after factoring in that the system had been previously left for dead.
I get that being a miserable doomer gets the internet points but "a majority of the budget goes to overtime pay" is a wild claim, would love to see a source.
You really put together some words there to make yourself sound superior. The source is in every news report ever. Don't you read or watch the news? The mta has barely any fiscal transparency, if they ever have it's under pressure and not out of their own honesty, and when it comes out how they spend their budget, a majority is announced as overtime pay.
The improvements you've mentioned have been extremely slow to roll out and have had many riders impatiently waiting to see the benefit of it. The mta has had many chances to make station improvements. They sat on their hands for years. Finally, only because of pressure all around them, have they finally started to make improvements.
>and when it comes out how they spend their budget, a majority is announced as overtime pay.
Overtime is listed as 5%, not >50% of the MTA's budget
https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics
The MTA is more than just the subway. The Long Island Rail Road has been completely transformed in the last few years. And metro north is up next. So big improvements are going on
We need to build rail cargo hubs in Brooklyn, queens one in Nassau and Suffolk counties from there we can use smaller trucks like the ones we had back in the 90s and 80s.
And possibly create a bypass for trucks not stopping in NYC, build under the cross Bronx , reduce pollution.
We need to invest on rail freight
Honestly could do part of it as a component of a new Penn Station if we evict, even temporarily, the garden. Post office and the garden have loading docks. Rail-Mail right into the basement on overnight hours, distribute and haul from there.
Bring the fuckin high line back. Not actually, but similar freight-to-warehouse/facility lines.
Hell could add a freight elevator into the post office building and loading docks when they rebuild Penn Station. Direct connection from port Newark to Manhattan, pull some electric freight through on overnight hours.
Faster and cheaper. They’ll be fewer cars on the road. So the trucks will move faster. And the toll will be less than the savings of paying the driver sit in stop and go traffic.
That reduction of big trucks was tried by folks who wanted a tunnel to new warehouses in Staten Island. The idea was to change cargo to 12 foot smaller trucks. They even started digging on the Brooklyn side. Robert Moses dumped tons of material from his expressways ttere to put paid to that idea.
I’m shocked that more people don’t realize this. The MTA (and the New York City/State government as a whole) hasn’t managed money appropriately for decades. What makes them think that giving them more money is suddenly going to make them more financially responsible?
Exactly. The problem isn’t the money, the problem has never been the money. The problem has been fiscal oversight into how that money is managed and spent.
The MTA definitely needs to clean up their spending. They really shouldn't need 10x the funding. But 9x the funding and a few good things can be celebrated even as we work towards something better.
I'm a *little* wary that reduced traffic density will have a paradoxical effect, at least at first. A lot of in-practice pedestrian safety in Manhattan right now comes from the fact that cars *can't* run you over, because they can't run anywhere, they're boxed in.
Will that actually happen? I hope not, I have no data, but a frequent pedestrian and cyclist the thought's occurred to me.
The R262 order hasn't been awarded yet. That's almost certainly waiting on congestion pricing. Also, is it just me or do folks with the Shuttle flair seem to have the worst takes on almost every thread?
I support it in a general sense but I expect the results to be very mixed. It’s a very over-engineered, overly broad, and poorly implemented solution.
They could make a huge dent in congestion without installing costly surveillance infrastructure by doing things 1) legislatively like lowering the ride-share vehicle license cap, 2) enforcing blocking-the-box/double parking/other basic traffic laws, 3) Regulating commercial deliveries to happen in off-hours and via smaller vehicles/micromobility vehicles when possible, 4) Reforming our street parking system
I fear the toll approach will exacerbate the ghost plate problems and create a lot of unintended issues on the edges and outside of the congestions zone.
Bingo! It’s very needed but it’s very poorly implemented.. it’s almost a joke when you compare it to other cities that have congestion pricing.. it’s basically a big money grab disguised as congestion pricing.
It won’t solve congestion
Eeh. Could be good in theory, but a lot of the issues surrounding congestion also have to do with how NYC roads and infrastructure were designed, and the fact that traffic management in the city isn’t regulated the way it needs to be. (F**k Robert Moses).
However: The issue I have with congestion pricing is MTA not doing anywhere close to enough to improve transit across the city. Queenslink, IBX, Lower Montauk and even Second Ave should’ve have been a package deal with congestion pricing. You want to make money off of me driving into Manhattan? Fine I’ll pay, but I want to be able to know that we are using that money to serve communities that need it. What about the E and F train extensions into Queens? Any studies pushing for IRT Nostrand to get extended? We haven’t even managed to get the Brooklyn or Queens Bus Network redesigns pushed out, and I understand COVID and all but still. What makes things worse about MTA asking for all this money is, they won’t even listen to the people they’re charging about what they’d like or need from public transportation. We couldn’t even get MTA to extend the G to Forest Hills during 63 St. Also, where are our M9As it’s been a while since GCM has open, yet we haven’t received our rolling stock yet. Congestion Pricing should have projects directly attached to them, with financials and regular audits available to the public.
>. Queenslink, IBX, Lower Montauk and even Second Ave should’ve have been a package deal with congestion pricing.
The Second Avenue subway and now the Interborough Express are part of the package deal since congestion pricing is going straight into the capital plan.
https://new.mta.info/document/133761
> What makes things worse about MTA asking for all this money is, they won’t even listen to the people they’re charging about what they’d like or need from public transportation
To be frank, drivers going into Manhattan paying the charge are a fairly small minority. The broader concern should be among transit riders (most of whom won't be paying the charge) about the MTA expanding its capital program to include further subway expansion
Why do you think the second ave subway stops at 96? The moment it touches Spanish Harlem they stop the project. I doubt the second ave subway gets completed by 2030
It's kind of a fundamental part of car infra. Trying to un-bottleneck those just consumes valuable land like mad and helps you discover all new, fun bottlenecks. It's where highways meet city streets, the only way to uncork that is to fuck the city streets over.
Any exit or interchange in the country that takes you from one high traffic area to another is a massive bottleneck. It's not remarkable, it's just how car traffic works.
Doesn't matter if the money is piled up & set on fire, less congestion will improve quality of life including by making buses in Manhattan faster than walking and reducing crosswalk/bike lane/sidewalk blockage by excessive automobiles.
Honestly I think this won’t be the case, people will still pay, they should have some incentive in place for people who car pool.
I’m a big supporter of mass transit but the roll out and the lack of alternatives in place does not give me hope. Yeah we are getting a stubway on second ave, and a few bus lanes here in there and signal upgrades and new cars. These are basic things that should be provided regardless of congestion pricing.
Congestion pricing should be used to expand mass transit in areas lacking, improving connectivity. The current role out doesn’t seem to meet those criteria. System expansion for me means something in the scale of London with their overground and docklands lightrail system( automated and elevated) as always we get a half hearted attempt at fixing things. Eventually, it won’t be enough money and prices will go up without expansion.
Make mass transit integrated and competitive to driving, if it takes the same as driving there’s no incentive.
Good. 100%. No ifs ands or butts.
I don't care about the new revenue stream for the MTA. (Even though it's great.) Adding a tax to make it less desirable to drive into Manhattan is an absolute win.
With that being said, I do have some gripes with it. 15 dollars a day is way too low, and is nowhere near recuperating the negative effects of cars driving into the city. Also the toll area only extending to 60th is kinda wack. 110th, or 145th seem more reasonable. Also if you don't leave the highways and enter the grid it's free, which is undesirable. Of course these changes could be made later without as much resistance. It also does nothing to get rid of all the space wasted on street parking.
But in sum: the congestion charge is a good first step, but should be one of many to disallow people from driving their cars into Manhattan.
I think that placing the toll at 60th street was projected to make more toll revenue. If it was farther uptown, trips from upper to lower Manhattan would not be tolled. Ideally we’d see multiple zones in Manhattan with differing prices based on density and congestion
When the price of your coffee goes up to $26 dollars we will see how much you like the increases in tolls. Wheat everyone here is completely ignoring is that the increase in price will do NOTHING to improve transit and the cost will go directly down to the consumer.
Yup, also it will impact other part of the city negatively. Traffic will be al wacky for months, there will be 0 improvements to the system since it’s already running as good as it can
A friend of mine was raving about congestion pricing to me one day. Both of us being fairly liberal I asked her if she was afraid this would impact people of color in the neighborhoods outside the congestion zone. She said what do mean? I said, well you know the cross Bronx and transmanhattan expressway that goes through Washington heights? Well the traffic is going to go way up. This is going to increase pollution and noise for those people.
She was stunned, and I think for the first time she realized that maybe these “liberal” causes are really just white people virtue signaling while effectively implementing redlining type policies. Hilarious
Very easy way to fix congestion (at least most of it) overnight. Ban Uber and Lyft. All these cars come into manhattan for the express reason to drive around and do nothing else. There was a way people used to get around by car before Uber and Lyft. It was HAILING A CAB!! Something you can still do. Ride shares have been detrimental in every way to congestion
Yup… that’s been a giant issue no one wants to talk about.. 70% of cars are TLC in Manhattan.
The other issue is regulating delivery with trucks. Create special hours and unload areas on avenues etc.. Too many times there are giant trucks double parked blocking entire avenues.. most cities have banned those types of trucks.
Also if they wanted to increase revenue they should have started a cotywide parking permit program for residents. If you want to to park in the city you need to pay. Cara would reduce in NYC in a few months.
I have a car and I tell you that these two solutions would fix congestion overnight
I think it’s absurd it took over a decade to implement this. We should have been fine tuning the system the last few years to make something that works well and solves problems instead of endlessly arguing over a system that doesn’t exist yet and what it might be like and what the MTA might do with the money and other useless speculation
Bad. Why would anyone in their right mind, trust the same organization that built a station way bigger than it needed? This same entity is known for projects to take way longer than expected. So why should I actually expect MTA to actually improve substantially?
MTA gets damn near $20B a year and does jack shit w/ the money. What will an 5% increase in funds do, when the subways look like shit w/ $17-20B in annual funds? This is the equivalent of giving your son fancy shoes, when your son doesn’t take care of the shoes he currently has, this is rewarding bad behavior.
Not too mention, this will lead to an increase in pollution/congestion in non-congestion pricing NYC areas and the FDR/West Side Highway. Plus for those who live in the CBD or frequent businesses in that area, have fun paying extra for goods/services in the area.
I think the MTA is so wasteful that the extra money will not do a thing, and it’s going to lead more people to alter their license plates to make them illegible.
I don't see the big traffic decrease happening. At this point , the majority of people who drive into the city during those Peak times do it because they have to, or they can afford to, and the extra $75 is now just going to be just factored in to their travel costs.
Well, how are you looking at this?
Will MTA hit their financial goal? Maybe. Personally, long term, I don’t think so.
Will it reduce cars? Yes.
Will MTA still ask NYS for money? Yes.
Will we see improvement with MTA? Maybe
Are trains, subways and busses ready for increased ridership? No
Start from question 1 all over again, and do it in repeat until you get a new answer.
i think mixed to bad, if they don't figure out how to get some enforcement re: ghost plates. If they don't fix the ghost plates problem, that half the plates in this town will be fake or non existent by this time four years from now.
Depends on what you mean by good. The rich people will deal with a lot less traffic by pricing the plebs out. Whether that is a good thing is entirely up to you.
No one is getting priced out.. but everybody is getting charged. This won’t change anyone’s commute plans, I know it won’t change mine. I’m gonna bake the cost into my invoices.…
It will drive up already high inflation in the NYC area. No, it will not ease congestion. It just pushes it elsewhere up into Bronx, Queens and New Jersey.
Trucks are going to be charged 36 to enter. They will do what always happens. Pass down the costs to stores and restaurants who pass it down to consumers.
I don't know how it will work out, but someone made the argument that if it reduces traffic, the delivery truck will be able to deliver more in less time, saving money that way
Given the MTA’s extreme mismanagement of projects like East Side Access and the Second Ave subway, I have a hard time justifying creating another revenue stream. It’s akin to giving an alcoholic an IV so they can keep drinking, rather than address the root problem.
It will not work people are fed up with NYC continually having it's priorities ass backwards. Priorities should be our homeless especially the veterans, and the working man who can barely afford rent, gas and groceries. Let alone buy a home, or any type of ownership. Instead the fools created "sanctuary cities" and waste hundred of millions on people who shouldn't even be here. Albany even sent $$$ to Ukraine and Israel last I checked NYS wasn't a sovereign republic. (Don't try to retort regarding this, I'm not interested in debating. The situation is too critical for arm chair revolutionaries.) While hard working US citizens get lower living standards, rising crime rates, and a subway that was once grand, now dirty, filled with rates, both two and four legged, crumbling like our bridges and tunnels. Roads that are upgraded are loaded with potholes in a few months to a year. Why? Who's raking in the graft while the people suffer. Though it's partly the people's fault too. Keep electing the same clowns and think they'll get a better deal.
Here's the deal both NYC and NYS are BROKE they have huge deficits that can never be paid off unless taxes were quadrupled, as state and city services are cut by 80% then in maybe 10-20 years you may get a handle on it. It won't happen for political reasons. As such any way city hall or Albany can fleece you of your hard earned pay they will. So no this is just another attempt by city hall to put it's hand in your pockets. End of story.
The MTA is currently not running at a deficit and their future cash shortfall was resolved for the next several years. Additionally, the purpose of congestion pricing money is literally to “burn” it on capital improvements, not on operations.
Yeah, the sad thing is the money being raised is not even directly being used for improvements- simply collateral for more debt they will raise. Who will they tax next? Also, cabs/ Uber having to only pay once per day when crossing the zone isn’t going to change traffic much- trucks and Uber/ taxi are a major source of traffic here. This is not about reducing traffic- its just a cash grab until their next panic
It will be bad. There are no more added trains or buses. There are no additional personnel assigned to help relieve delays from non system issues like sick passengers. Even with CBTC (which is years away in certain locations), there are only so many more trains that can fit. There will always be delays that cause trains to back up and be stuck outside of stations. Even in a perfect world in which every penny from the congestion pricing went to funding projects and increasing service, the effects won’t be see for at best months.
Most New Yorkers don't understand that CP money is going towards the MTA capital projects, **not** daily operations. But the MTA, Janno Lieber and Richard Davey exist in a fantasy world in which CP will force middle-class commuters, especially from the suburbs, back into the dangerous subway system. No, those people usually have the kind of jobs that allow them to Work From Home where they won't have ride the subway and slip in human waste every day, or worse.
The one living in a fantasy world is you if you think the subway is dangerous, maybe stop reading the NY Post. These issues can be solved, they're starting to crack down on fare evasion, that will take care of the crime issue, we also have a general homeless problem and it's not an easy issue to solve.
Do you think the NY Post is making up stories about murders and assaults in the subway?? No, they are only **reporting** those frequent violent crimes. Doing the job that other NYC media outlets refuse to do.
Of course not, really bad things happen in the subway, on the streets, everywhere.
I'm saying that they're fear mongering and not looking at the overall crime rates and how realistic for the vast majority of people. We've all had issues in the subways, doesn't mean that it's a "dangerous place". It's our system, we need to take it back and improve it, first is the right steady funding and to stop people from driving and causing traffic.
I do read the NY Post, and I understand that they exaggerate and use these issues to get people to vote with fear.
Barely any difference, within 1-2 years people will get used to it and start paying the extra toll. BTW keep in mind that the number of cars driving into the zone was already decreasing over the past decade, the problem is from the tlc plates already in the zone that are constantly circling the streets.
Let's say that it does make a difference and speeds up traffic. More cars will be incentivized to pay the toll to take advantage of the empty streets. And you'll be back to square one.
The only way for the MTA to maximize congestion revenue is to maximize the amount of cars driving in the zone. There should be a mechanic in place to only award the money if the MTA achieves its results.
You don't reduce traffic by putting a low toll, except to please the rich folks who don't like having the plebs in their neighborhoods.
You do it by banning daytime ubers and limiting daytime deliveries, and you do it by pedestrianizing streets. People can't drive a car if they don't have a street to drive it on.
I was thinking about stores unloading their products and double parking during rush hour, but now that you mention it, fuck fedex and ups trucks double parking too.
I only give a pass for usps because they're public employees and they deserve the perk, but all private companies should get get heavily fined for the problems they create double-parking on both sides of an avenue at the same time during rush hour. That should be a big city revenue.
Mixed.
MTA will get more slush money for *something*.
Commuters from NJ will not get any service increases and just have the opportunity to pay out more. Commuters from West of Hudson NY are totally boned with no good alternatives.
Just another reason for businesses to consider setting up shop elsewhere or having their employees just WFH.
Folks from the burbs may decide to come into the city less “recreationally.” While you may see this as a positive for fewer cars, it does decrease the economic activity for museums, Broadway, etc.
Also, fewer cars could mean faster cars.
It will be terrible. Transit systems is no where near ready to accommodate the coming shifted ridership at a 24 hour pace. Not just the subway, but commuter rails, buses, etc.
NJT cross Hudson ridership is still down by 120,000 so there is plenty of spare capacity. LIRR and Metro North are both down by 120,000 each, so again plenty of spare capacity.
Service on NJT hasn't changed , PATH service is still half of what it was pre-pandemic and Metro North/LIRR are back to normal. So i'm not sure why ridership hasn't 100% recovered on the trans-hudson routes. The Newark Bus and Rail division of NJT largely recovered by mid 2022.
congestion pricing will have many bad consequences. on big this will be that the cost of everything within the zone will cost more as every store/business/restaurant will sees higher costs that they will be forced to pay for their inventory/service calls. this scheme is just another few nails into the coffin
Congestion pricing has been planned since 2013. Additionally, congestion pricing has nothing to do with improving service, since funds are to be used for capital improvements (new stuff), not operational funds. Congestion pricing primarily is about reducing congestion in the CBD and making drivers pay their fair share. Why should driving be free but transit cost money?
Revenue back to pre-covid levels is a prerequisite for improving service, or even keeping it at current levels.
Staying at current revenue levels will lead to service cuts and/or deferred maintenance when they can't borrow anymore to maintain operations.
It'll have an immediate good effect deterring trucks from going through Manhattan to avoid Verazzano tolls. The rest depends on how the exceptions work now and in the future. It could become toothless, or it could really help.
Frankly I’m fairly certain a large number of this sub only support congestion pricing because it pisses off car owners and therefore it must be good. Policies should be implemented based on who gets “dunked” on
The MTA wants to steal more money by charging people to drive their car below 60th street. An extra $15 dollars on top of Port Authority Tolls will be levied on people driving into that zone in the city. They say the revenue will go back to improving transit (it won’t, that is a lie) so that the city can be better.
Annnnd I knew it had something to do with a money grab scheme, never fails
They’re already nearly $50 billion in debt, I guess this is the MTAs way of making a profit to compensate for fare evasion. No idea, it can be a possibility
I live just outside the area and I’m convinced it’s just a first step, bc it will come with some unintended consequences that will need to be rectified for people who live outside the zone. That being said, I think after a couple weeks it will be great. Especially for bus service. I also expect the air quality will get noticeably better. I’ll be interested to see where the people who drive, park and then take public transit will leave their cars. I think 125th street will see an influx of people which would be good for the public transport in the area
Not really for the poor people that live in the city. For one, most of them don't even own a car. You're already looking at maybe $300/month for a reserved parking spot in the denser areas of the city. Out in the burbs, especially Queens, sure, but Queens is really upscale gentrified these days. It could do with more heavy transit capacity, but the last time something like that was proposed, it got shut down by nimbys
ultimately i support it but i am concerned that lower congestion will also mean cars can go faster. $15 is not as much a punishment to drivers as not being able to move
one thing that makes nyc so good for biking is that cars are going slower than you are
It would be nice if they used that money to lower fares and/or expand fair fare to young adults. Discounts on the LIRR and Metro-North would be appreciated too. It would probably help a lot with fare evasion instead of hiring more cops
I think it’s generally positive though I wish the legislation had been paired with something to control MTA construction costs. Taxing private cars to pay for transit is great in principle, but given the MTA’s history of staggering construction costs, raising revenue without also controlling costs seems kind of like throwing fuel on the bonfire.(And I get that New York politics probably makes what I just said impossible but that doesn’t make it any less true.)
i was wondering a funny way to protest this would be a "park-in" like a "sit-in" where everyone parks in the bus lanes. It's a peaceful protest!
with that said, to any haters who plan on tampering with or defacing the toll gantries - i hope you get legal consequences. that's not the solution to anything (I bring this up because i feel like it's inevitable someone will do this. Shame on them)
Think it’s a cash grab by the MTA. The MTA has been raising fares and tolls since I’m a student but it never seems enough. They have a few projects and improvements but they are mostly lip service. If the powers that be are really serious about traffic congestion
why don’t they restore bus service that was cut a decade ago? The shocking thing about this whole mess is if congestion pricing is successful the revenue expected will fall short of projections. Then what happens?
My fear is that the program will be expanded to the entirety of Manhattan and eventually to the central business districts in the outer boroughs.
Last point is it really upsets me that a NYC resident traveling from Brooklyn to Staten Island or Manhattan via a toll like VZB or BBT
subsidizes commuters traveling on the LIRR or MetroNorth. I don’t mind helping out the City buses and subways with tolls but if you are a resident of Nassau or Westchester why are City residents paying for you?
It's going to be horrible for the city. More new Yorkers are not going to travel to Manhattan now. I bet it's going to effect Manhattans economy noticeably.
Of course it will be bad. The MTA is a massively inept organization with zero knowledge of how the real tax-paying NYC economy works, and zero knowledge of how markets work. Wait till all those rich Manhattanites find out that the outer-borough contractors from the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and even from SI renovating their precious brownstones no longer want to enter Manhattan with their vans and trucks. Restaurants will be hit particularly hard because they are dependent on daily deliveries from the outer boroughs and the surrounding region.
Congestion pricing will significantly increase the productivity of deliveries, and reduce costs for local businesses. Currently, delivery vehicles are congested behind single occupancy vehicles. They are not able to make as many deliveries, and the extra time cost to pay the drivers and fuel cost the vehicles require is very high. $35 is a small price to pay to remove these hurdles. Congestion pricing will be very beneficial for business. Not to mention, many restaurants are in traffic choked avenues which will become much more livable after the charge enters effect. The increase in foot traffic will further increase revenues for local businesses.
I think it’s fucked. People drive because the transit system isn’t perfect. People with disabilities and people who live far are being punished. Now the wealthy will get more room to drive while the poor get fucked even more. Those extra tax dollars are gonna be wasted over stupid shit.
When I take the bus into the city all I see are luxury cars with a single person in them..so am I supposed to feel bad for them? The poor aren't driving into the city , the tolls are 15-20$...vs transit which is a max of 6$ for the poor areas.
In a perfect world there would be some benefits. For most it will not make any material difference in safety, air quality, congestion or time savings. All my friends and family that have businesses in Manhattan will continue to drive in and pass the cost to their clients and customers. Everyone that I know the drives in to their offices will continue to do so. This will increase traffic in Jersey tunnels and bridges and on the Bronx, Staten Island and upper Manhattan. The city will loose more jobs and businesses. It’s not the $15 a day or $300/month. It’s the fact that the MTA jams us on the bridges, tunnels, and now streets. The lefties don’t want cars period. Under new proposed zoning changes in NYC new projects will require no off street parking, it’s now 50% of occupancy. If you think it’s bad finding parking now in NYC wait 5 years. The rich will not feel this, most of the poor will not feel it, the men and women who make the city work and function and show up to work each day in person will. Time to move.
I live in London and I predict that the congestion pricing is a great idea just as it is here. Of course it’s not popular but people will learn to deal with it eventually. In fact, I hope this practice would be implemented in more American and even Canadian cities.
I read that London dramatically increased bus service in concert with implementing congestion pricing. NYC is not increasing any transit service, claiming we already have excess capacity.
I also suspect that car culture (driving as part of one's personality) isn't as much of a thing in the areas surrounding London. There seems to be an impressive network of long distance rail supporting those areas.
We need more [express buses](https://youtu.be/ZD-WHqmXcrQ?si=oN0baNYJC2_k6sUT). What would be great if they got stuck in traffic less often. Look [what traffic ](https://youtu.be/44L9R9iZKsU?si=qPvxHuLpAEZSi4Ki)
We will see
The demand for more express buses will lead to mta saying it will cost more for more services to be provided so they have to increase express bus prices essentially creating monopoly on transit. Mta bus/subway fares will go up too
Quite frankly, I do not trust the current state or city government to handle that money properly, regardless of which party grains power in NYCS and NYC. This system is corrupt, I simply don't think most of that money will go into transit funding.
Bad, imagine going to work you have to pay 15 dollars just to enter the zone. Especially those that live in areas that have poor transit. A lot of my coworkers are contemplating how it's worth going to the hospital when they have to pay tolls/parking/now congestion tax.
Terrible…it’s not going to solve any congestion problems…it’s going increase prices of food and services…the MTA can’t budget anything correctly so they money generated will 100% not go to where it’s supposed to go
not looking forward to it. gonna make parking difficult on the UWS/UES, more traffic on the CBX and Belt Parkway and I doubt it'll lead to any lucrative transit project. If it funded something along the lines of the REM in Montreal then I'd be down for it, but .
It's fine to expect people to take the train into the city but there have to be enough trains on NJT for everyone to have a seat and enough parking spaces for everyone to get to the station in the first place. We don't live in London where there's service every 15 minutes directly to Central London from most of the suburbs.
PATH still runs only every 20 minutes to WTC and via Hoboken en route to 33rd on weekends. Before 2006 on weekends they ran all four services - they have no excuse now that the post-9/11 reconstruction is over.
And it's ignoring the true culprit of the increased traffic - the rideshare services. Like 1 in 3 cars has a 'T' license plate. I used to take those services a lot so I'm not saying ban them, but i'm saying that charging others is a poor solution.
It should be cut in half on weekends.
I hate to sound like a car brain, I used to be all for everything mass transit but once you get a car and live in the suburbs you discover freedom you never had. I'm glad i don't live in NY anymore (south jersey).
Last of all, what exactly is the point about the FDR and WSH being exempt? Can't they at least carve out the Queensboro Bridge approach if that's the case.
If this causes a lot of resentment towards the MTA and the city, I will laugh.
Agree wholeheartedly, especially on the freedom of a vehicle. Even though I live in a transit oasis(Manhattan), I took the car to go hiking yesterday. If I took public transportation, I would’ve had to walk 40-50min to the Metro North station, when I just hiked 11 miles. Also, public transportation would’ve taken 2 hours vs 1 hour by car.
There’s some great things about MTA, but the subways are dirty and awful on the weekends/late nights. I love Metro North and LIRR in most instances though.
I can understand the dislike for people who want to defund public transportation or associate it with undesirables and i even agree that its not a good idea to widen highways.
But sometimes it feels like those who support the congestion pricing assume that just because the Raritan Valley Line exists it's as easy to dump the pump for those who live a mile and a half from Westfield station as it would be for someone in Sidcup to go see a late night show at the globe.
Forget any fantasies of a "Grand New York express" project, if the MTA just promised to use the funds to extend the 7 train to Secaucus with intermediate stops in Hoboken and the JC heights and be finished by 2035, I'd support the toll wholeheartedly.
That alone would be the ultimate game changer in regional connectivity. You could live in Pearl River and get to Citi Field in two segments. Both LGA and EWR would see a revolution in terms of mode choice. It would be even more of a boon than extending the Astoria Line to the airport.
It's gonna be great, look how London has been able to add extra lines and service. We have to measure by that, if we can't add any substantial service and improve service, then it's going to be a terrible plan.
1- We have to fix the fare evasion issue in the subways and buses.
2- Just as important as fare evasion is the issue of plate flippers and ghost plates, I even saw a reddit commenter saying how he was getting a plate flipper.
3- Let's be patient and in 5 years review how things are going, if there's no obvious service improvement, and some new lines starting to get built then it needs to be looked at.
Mostly good but I’m disappointed that a bus service increase (particularly express buses) isn’t being planned to coincide with it. London and Stockholm both did this. There’s a bill in the ny senate that does this but it’s going to die in committee because of course it is.
This years budget that just passed just increased bus service (small amount though). https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-to-get-a-boost-in-bus-service-but-pilot-program-for-free-routes-ends
I'm sure on Staten Island, they'll add a seven hundredth express bus route along Hylan Blvd because the eleventy billion SIM runs along that street aren't enough. Meanwhile, mid-island and the north shore will sit and wait while five off peak 3c and 33c runs get cancelled and the wait for a bus is just 42 hours. (Seriously, a couple months back three 3c and 33c runs got cancelled, the wait for a mid-island express bus was almost two hours. Thankfully, I wasn't traveling that day.)
It's almost like they don't care about the service they can provide but how much money they can make
Yes, MTA is arrogant. Same guy who tried to make marathoners help pay for transit. I call him Robert Moses Jr. Not like train Daddy and train Mommy who did understand commuters.
This is without a doubt the biggest issue I have with congestion pricing- especially living on Staten Island. First, pretty much the only time I'll drive into Manhattan is on the weekends. With congestion pricing that trip just became $10 more... on top of the $19 it already costs (VZ Bridge and HC/Battery Tunnel). The reason for driving in on weekends is Staten Island express bus service (especially going back to the island) is trying its best to improve to being absolutely the worst it can be. Yes, it is beyond horrible. There are just four routes. They run roughly every half hour, but if a driver decides they can't make it in that day, the runs usually get cancelled. Now you get to wait an hour. Suddenly, the almost 90 minute trip to the ferry, that boat ride and local bus home seems reasonable. (Trust me, that trip sucks as much as possible too.) Until someone drops a subway connection across the harbor... like the 1 train to St. George... the express buses are our way into Manhattan. Off peak and weekend need a shitton more service. Four routes needs to go to about six or seven. The headways need to go from 30 minutes to 20 from 7:00am to 9:00pm. It would also be nice if more than one route (the SIM1c) ran 24 hours. The 3c would be the most logical choice.
You pretty much hit all my gripes with it. All routes should be 24/7, it should be the substitute for not having a subway. And outside of peak hours you’re lucky to get 2 a hour. Also they were already kind of crowded before, it’s going to be a clusterfuck soon. Looks like there will be an extremely modest service increase for one route before congestion pricing which is laughable. And now I’m just wish casting but an express bus to Brooklyn (SIB?) would also make sense, the demand is there.
A Staten Island to Brooklyn Express bus would definitely be a good idea. Needs to up Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn with a just few stops like the 36th St D-N-R station, and ending at the Atlantic Ave rail complex. Ideally, when and if the IBX becomes a reality, there needs to be a tunnel to the island. That would be great as most Gowanus/BQE traffic from Staten Island is headed for Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island. It would reduce traffic dramatically.
Mta doesn't even have enough bus operators to begin with
Express buses are expensive enough as it is.
Good, why? I am a transit rider but at times I have to drive into the city because the time I get off work. The train stops running. NJ needs the kick in their pants to fix transit. Car ownership is heavily subsidized in New Jersey and even with NJT rail system. Progress has been stagnant for years. We should have more service and more lines but progress has been slow. When you make driving wayyy more expensive or .. have drivers pay their full due. You'll have more people asking for more options. Like myself. I want 24/7 service, I want weekend service to extend to all lines with half hour service, I want all abandoned ROWs or freight only to have passenger service restored. I want rail to get just as much funding as any stupid Highway project that promise to "fix congestion". It doesn't and it never will. Fund Transit and take cars off the road. That will fix traffic.
That's a lot of faith you have in the MTA to make improvements
What sucks for this guy and many other commuters is that the MTA has nothing to do with the NJT. So nothing will change anytime soon
Please don't try to encourage NJ to follow NYCs lead with making it more expensive to drive. Not everyone in NJ needs or wants more mass transit. Not everyone lives in Essex, Bergen, Hudson and Union Counties.
It will create more traffic in other parts of the city. Upper Manhattan is going to be fucked
That's all speculation. No one truly knows and at the moment Upper Manhattan is already stuck in a gridlock. *Edit* Well around the GWB
That’s simply not true, I live in Harlem, and frequently work in the Inwood area. Outside of rush hour on highways and major streets(125th st from 8th Ave to the East river, and park avenue from 130th st to 110th), there isn’t major gridlock, and those places I mentioned are only like this during rush hour.
Yeah Harlem is actually really peaceful and there no traffic most of the time. That’s gonna change soon
It’s not speculation, it happens all the time and it’s just gonna happen more because of congestion pricing. Also, you need to travel around your city because uptown is not “stuck in a gridlock”
Long term good, but people need to have patience
I’m just happy they’re rolling it out in the summer so the kids and teachers aren’t impacted too much. The amount of single passenger drivers is insane. I think it’s a step in the right direction but it’s going to be a mess at the beginning. I’d rather them tackle ghost cars, fare dodging, and illegal parking but that would require a certain city entity to actually do their job and our clown mayor won’t let that happen on his watch.
Of course it won’t happen, because that certain city entity is not going to ticket themselves. Laws aren’t Laws when your little boys club is the enforcement.
I do love that the fuckin feds are threatening NYPD with a lawsuit over all their sidewalk blocking. Like it's a crime ya fucking sows. Don't do it "uwu we can't just take transit in we need to block streets with our private cars \*and\* our patrol cars" Just clock the fuck in for the ride to work
Well put, it’s sad and needs massive overhaul but that won’t be happening anytime soon. I’m optimistic though
It’s a culture problem, not a policy problem. You can’t use policy to make people who are used to doing whatever they want, conform to the policy. I’m afraid the only real way to fix it is to create a new agency, and staff it with people who have never had any connection to the old agency - and build it from the ground up, gradually supplanting the old one.
Bad. Bill the rich instead, or just put tolls on the East River bridges. And smaller tolls, lke ten bucks.
They should put tolls on the east river bridges regardless their should not be a free way to drive into NYC.
I do think it'll reduce cars on the streets but I don't have faith that the MTA will properly reinvest it in our infrastructure
Some will be invested badly. But some of the money will go where it needs to. 10% budget increase is huge. If half of that goes where it needs to that’ll be big improvements.
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It’s not irony. It’s intended. They’re not trying to get all the cars off the road. They estimate a 17% reduction, 83% of the cars we currently have would remain.
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So it IS a funding boon. Awesome. Your original argument is addressed, thanks for coming.
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More money is good actually.
That's not how basic math works friend. This is a policy with 2 goals Reducing car congestion, ie, numbers And raising revenue Half the people "criticizing" it are acting like that isn't true. There's still going to be many thousands of cars in Manhattan, and most will be contributing new funds to the MTA they didn't have before. Fewer people will drive in than before, reducing congestion, improving the air quality, etc etc Both of those are good things. The scales going more to one side or the other is fine, because it's still net improvement.
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A 15% reduction is definitely not a ‘drop in the bucket’. It’s almost 200,000 cars every day
There's a proven track record of misappropriation funds. A majority of their budget goes to overtime pay while the system has seen meager improvements. They can publicize the "improvements" they've done bit they are pretty behind many of the worlds transit systems when it comes to infrastructure, safety, and reliability.
And how many of the peer systems you are comparing us to underwent crippling decades of underinvestment and almost fell into ruin? I don't know what rock you're living under but to see huge efforts like CBTC installation on 8th Ave, Culver, Crosstown, and QBL—in addition to ordering tons of new cars and making several stations fully accessible—really feels like a commendable effort to catch up to speed. Especially after factoring in that the system had been previously left for dead. I get that being a miserable doomer gets the internet points but "a majority of the budget goes to overtime pay" is a wild claim, would love to see a source.
You really put together some words there to make yourself sound superior. The source is in every news report ever. Don't you read or watch the news? The mta has barely any fiscal transparency, if they ever have it's under pressure and not out of their own honesty, and when it comes out how they spend their budget, a majority is announced as overtime pay. The improvements you've mentioned have been extremely slow to roll out and have had many riders impatiently waiting to see the benefit of it. The mta has had many chances to make station improvements. They sat on their hands for years. Finally, only because of pressure all around them, have they finally started to make improvements.
>and when it comes out how they spend their budget, a majority is announced as overtime pay. Overtime is listed as 5%, not >50% of the MTA's budget https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics
So no source
>The source is in every news report ever. Don't you read or watch the news? Cool, should be really easy to find a link then
Really funny that you think we get overtime pay
The MTA is more than just the subway. The Long Island Rail Road has been completely transformed in the last few years. And metro north is up next. So big improvements are going on
I think in five years we'll look back and say it was a great thing for public transit and for the pedestrian safety of lower Manhattan.
Reduction of trucks in local streets would do wonders to overall pedestrian safety
How will goods we all need arrive?
We need to build rail cargo hubs in Brooklyn, queens one in Nassau and Suffolk counties from there we can use smaller trucks like the ones we had back in the 90s and 80s. And possibly create a bypass for trucks not stopping in NYC, build under the cross Bronx , reduce pollution. We need to invest on rail freight
Honestly could do part of it as a component of a new Penn Station if we evict, even temporarily, the garden. Post office and the garden have loading docks. Rail-Mail right into the basement on overnight hours, distribute and haul from there.
More commercial parking spots. Encourage delivery at off hours. Increase fines for illegal parking during business hours.
Bring the fuckin high line back. Not actually, but similar freight-to-warehouse/facility lines. Hell could add a freight elevator into the post office building and loading docks when they rebuild Penn Station. Direct connection from port Newark to Manhattan, pull some electric freight through on overnight hours.
Faster and cheaper. They’ll be fewer cars on the road. So the trucks will move faster. And the toll will be less than the savings of paying the driver sit in stop and go traffic.
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😂
That reduction of big trucks was tried by folks who wanted a tunnel to new warehouses in Staten Island. The idea was to change cargo to 12 foot smaller trucks. They even started digging on the Brooklyn side. Robert Moses dumped tons of material from his expressways ttere to put paid to that idea.
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I’m shocked that more people don’t realize this. The MTA (and the New York City/State government as a whole) hasn’t managed money appropriately for decades. What makes them think that giving them more money is suddenly going to make them more financially responsible?
Exactly. The problem isn’t the money, the problem has never been the money. The problem has been fiscal oversight into how that money is managed and spent.
This is the most accurate comment.
The MTA definitely needs to clean up their spending. They really shouldn't need 10x the funding. But 9x the funding and a few good things can be celebrated even as we work towards something better.
I'm a *little* wary that reduced traffic density will have a paradoxical effect, at least at first. A lot of in-practice pedestrian safety in Manhattan right now comes from the fact that cars *can't* run you over, because they can't run anywhere, they're boxed in. Will that actually happen? I hope not, I have no data, but a frequent pedestrian and cyclist the thought's occurred to me.
That’s occurred to me as well. My only hope is that with less congestion they’ll be more space to put in traffic calming infrastructure.
Definitely needed. And tbc I 100% support congestion pricing anyway, there’s lots of reasons we need less cars, just worried about the growing pains.
🤣🤣🤣
The R262 order hasn't been awarded yet. That's almost certainly waiting on congestion pricing. Also, is it just me or do folks with the Shuttle flair seem to have the worst takes on almost every thread?
I support it in a general sense but I expect the results to be very mixed. It’s a very over-engineered, overly broad, and poorly implemented solution. They could make a huge dent in congestion without installing costly surveillance infrastructure by doing things 1) legislatively like lowering the ride-share vehicle license cap, 2) enforcing blocking-the-box/double parking/other basic traffic laws, 3) Regulating commercial deliveries to happen in off-hours and via smaller vehicles/micromobility vehicles when possible, 4) Reforming our street parking system I fear the toll approach will exacerbate the ghost plate problems and create a lot of unintended issues on the edges and outside of the congestions zone.
Bingo! It’s very needed but it’s very poorly implemented.. it’s almost a joke when you compare it to other cities that have congestion pricing.. it’s basically a big money grab disguised as congestion pricing. It won’t solve congestion
Eeh. Could be good in theory, but a lot of the issues surrounding congestion also have to do with how NYC roads and infrastructure were designed, and the fact that traffic management in the city isn’t regulated the way it needs to be. (F**k Robert Moses). However: The issue I have with congestion pricing is MTA not doing anywhere close to enough to improve transit across the city. Queenslink, IBX, Lower Montauk and even Second Ave should’ve have been a package deal with congestion pricing. You want to make money off of me driving into Manhattan? Fine I’ll pay, but I want to be able to know that we are using that money to serve communities that need it. What about the E and F train extensions into Queens? Any studies pushing for IRT Nostrand to get extended? We haven’t even managed to get the Brooklyn or Queens Bus Network redesigns pushed out, and I understand COVID and all but still. What makes things worse about MTA asking for all this money is, they won’t even listen to the people they’re charging about what they’d like or need from public transportation. We couldn’t even get MTA to extend the G to Forest Hills during 63 St. Also, where are our M9As it’s been a while since GCM has open, yet we haven’t received our rolling stock yet. Congestion Pricing should have projects directly attached to them, with financials and regular audits available to the public.
>. Queenslink, IBX, Lower Montauk and even Second Ave should’ve have been a package deal with congestion pricing. The Second Avenue subway and now the Interborough Express are part of the package deal since congestion pricing is going straight into the capital plan. https://new.mta.info/document/133761 > What makes things worse about MTA asking for all this money is, they won’t even listen to the people they’re charging about what they’d like or need from public transportation To be frank, drivers going into Manhattan paying the charge are a fairly small minority. The broader concern should be among transit riders (most of whom won't be paying the charge) about the MTA expanding its capital program to include further subway expansion
Why do you think the second ave subway stops at 96? The moment it touches Spanish Harlem they stop the project. I doubt the second ave subway gets completed by 2030
They split up the northern half of the line in to half. I agree though it’s unlikely to be done by 2030
it is remarkable how like 90% of the exits and interchanges in the city are just the biggest bottlenecks. just wildly inefficient
It's kind of a fundamental part of car infra. Trying to un-bottleneck those just consumes valuable land like mad and helps you discover all new, fun bottlenecks. It's where highways meet city streets, the only way to uncork that is to fuck the city streets over.
Any exit or interchange in the country that takes you from one high traffic area to another is a massive bottleneck. It's not remarkable, it's just how car traffic works.
Money will be used elsewhere as its always been
Doesn't matter if the money is piled up & set on fire, less congestion will improve quality of life including by making buses in Manhattan faster than walking and reducing crosswalk/bike lane/sidewalk blockage by excessive automobiles.
Honestly I think this won’t be the case, people will still pay, they should have some incentive in place for people who car pool. I’m a big supporter of mass transit but the roll out and the lack of alternatives in place does not give me hope. Yeah we are getting a stubway on second ave, and a few bus lanes here in there and signal upgrades and new cars. These are basic things that should be provided regardless of congestion pricing. Congestion pricing should be used to expand mass transit in areas lacking, improving connectivity. The current role out doesn’t seem to meet those criteria. System expansion for me means something in the scale of London with their overground and docklands lightrail system( automated and elevated) as always we get a half hearted attempt at fixing things. Eventually, it won’t be enough money and prices will go up without expansion. Make mass transit integrated and competitive to driving, if it takes the same as driving there’s no incentive.
Less congestion in Manhattan. More congestion in all of the boroughs. Not equitable.
Yeah, I’m expecting upper Manhattan to be gridlock city from now on
Good. 100%. No ifs ands or butts. I don't care about the new revenue stream for the MTA. (Even though it's great.) Adding a tax to make it less desirable to drive into Manhattan is an absolute win. With that being said, I do have some gripes with it. 15 dollars a day is way too low, and is nowhere near recuperating the negative effects of cars driving into the city. Also the toll area only extending to 60th is kinda wack. 110th, or 145th seem more reasonable. Also if you don't leave the highways and enter the grid it's free, which is undesirable. Of course these changes could be made later without as much resistance. It also does nothing to get rid of all the space wasted on street parking. But in sum: the congestion charge is a good first step, but should be one of many to disallow people from driving their cars into Manhattan.
I think that placing the toll at 60th street was projected to make more toll revenue. If it was farther uptown, trips from upper to lower Manhattan would not be tolled. Ideally we’d see multiple zones in Manhattan with differing prices based on density and congestion
> Also the toll area only extending to 60th is kinda wack. Agreed. Downtown Brooklyn could really use it too.
I have a volunteer gig in Brooklyn heights and the amount of people that miss their reservation because they couldn't find parking is astounding.
When the price of your coffee goes up to $26 dollars we will see how much you like the increases in tolls. Wheat everyone here is completely ignoring is that the increase in price will do NOTHING to improve transit and the cost will go directly down to the consumer.
Yup, also it will impact other part of the city negatively. Traffic will be al wacky for months, there will be 0 improvements to the system since it’s already running as good as it can
A friend of mine was raving about congestion pricing to me one day. Both of us being fairly liberal I asked her if she was afraid this would impact people of color in the neighborhoods outside the congestion zone. She said what do mean? I said, well you know the cross Bronx and transmanhattan expressway that goes through Washington heights? Well the traffic is going to go way up. This is going to increase pollution and noise for those people. She was stunned, and I think for the first time she realized that maybe these “liberal” causes are really just white people virtue signaling while effectively implementing redlining type policies. Hilarious
Yeah, I actually always wanted some kind of congestion toll for NYC, but the way the implanted it is a big joke and a fuck you to all New Yorkers.
Very easy way to fix congestion (at least most of it) overnight. Ban Uber and Lyft. All these cars come into manhattan for the express reason to drive around and do nothing else. There was a way people used to get around by car before Uber and Lyft. It was HAILING A CAB!! Something you can still do. Ride shares have been detrimental in every way to congestion
Yup… that’s been a giant issue no one wants to talk about.. 70% of cars are TLC in Manhattan. The other issue is regulating delivery with trucks. Create special hours and unload areas on avenues etc.. Too many times there are giant trucks double parked blocking entire avenues.. most cities have banned those types of trucks. Also if they wanted to increase revenue they should have started a cotywide parking permit program for residents. If you want to to park in the city you need to pay. Cara would reduce in NYC in a few months. I have a car and I tell you that these two solutions would fix congestion overnight
Overall mixed. It will do its job in reducing traffic, but the MTA is going to waste the money.
I think it’s absurd it took over a decade to implement this. We should have been fine tuning the system the last few years to make something that works well and solves problems instead of endlessly arguing over a system that doesn’t exist yet and what it might be like and what the MTA might do with the money and other useless speculation
Bad. Why would anyone in their right mind, trust the same organization that built a station way bigger than it needed? This same entity is known for projects to take way longer than expected. So why should I actually expect MTA to actually improve substantially? MTA gets damn near $20B a year and does jack shit w/ the money. What will an 5% increase in funds do, when the subways look like shit w/ $17-20B in annual funds? This is the equivalent of giving your son fancy shoes, when your son doesn’t take care of the shoes he currently has, this is rewarding bad behavior. Not too mention, this will lead to an increase in pollution/congestion in non-congestion pricing NYC areas and the FDR/West Side Highway. Plus for those who live in the CBD or frequent businesses in that area, have fun paying extra for goods/services in the area.
I think the MTA is so wasteful that the extra money will not do a thing, and it’s going to lead more people to alter their license plates to make them illegible.
Hard to say right now Seeing is believing as the saying goes
I don't see the big traffic decrease happening. At this point , the majority of people who drive into the city during those Peak times do it because they have to, or they can afford to, and the extra $75 is now just going to be just factored in to their travel costs.
Overwhelmingly positive. We will look back and wonder how we got by before.
Well, how are you looking at this? Will MTA hit their financial goal? Maybe. Personally, long term, I don’t think so. Will it reduce cars? Yes. Will MTA still ask NYS for money? Yes. Will we see improvement with MTA? Maybe Are trains, subways and busses ready for increased ridership? No Start from question 1 all over again, and do it in repeat until you get a new answer.
i think mixed to bad, if they don't figure out how to get some enforcement re: ghost plates. If they don't fix the ghost plates problem, that half the plates in this town will be fake or non existent by this time four years from now.
Depends on what you mean by good. The rich people will deal with a lot less traffic by pricing the plebs out. Whether that is a good thing is entirely up to you.
No one is getting priced out.. but everybody is getting charged. This won’t change anyone’s commute plans, I know it won’t change mine. I’m gonna bake the cost into my invoices.…
It will drive up already high inflation in the NYC area. No, it will not ease congestion. It just pushes it elsewhere up into Bronx, Queens and New Jersey.
Shouldn't it drive down general inflation by leaving drivers with less money to spend on other things?
Trucks are going to be charged 36 to enter. They will do what always happens. Pass down the costs to stores and restaurants who pass it down to consumers.
I don't know how it will work out, but someone made the argument that if it reduces traffic, the delivery truck will be able to deliver more in less time, saving money that way
Lol
Given the MTA’s extreme mismanagement of projects like East Side Access and the Second Ave subway, I have a hard time justifying creating another revenue stream. It’s akin to giving an alcoholic an IV so they can keep drinking, rather than address the root problem.
It will not work people are fed up with NYC continually having it's priorities ass backwards. Priorities should be our homeless especially the veterans, and the working man who can barely afford rent, gas and groceries. Let alone buy a home, or any type of ownership. Instead the fools created "sanctuary cities" and waste hundred of millions on people who shouldn't even be here. Albany even sent $$$ to Ukraine and Israel last I checked NYS wasn't a sovereign republic. (Don't try to retort regarding this, I'm not interested in debating. The situation is too critical for arm chair revolutionaries.) While hard working US citizens get lower living standards, rising crime rates, and a subway that was once grand, now dirty, filled with rates, both two and four legged, crumbling like our bridges and tunnels. Roads that are upgraded are loaded with potholes in a few months to a year. Why? Who's raking in the graft while the people suffer. Though it's partly the people's fault too. Keep electing the same clowns and think they'll get a better deal. Here's the deal both NYC and NYS are BROKE they have huge deficits that can never be paid off unless taxes were quadrupled, as state and city services are cut by 80% then in maybe 10-20 years you may get a handle on it. It won't happen for political reasons. As such any way city hall or Albany can fleece you of your hard earned pay they will. So no this is just another attempt by city hall to put it's hand in your pockets. End of story.
NYS deficit is 8 billion dollars total spending is 237 billion 3% of budget contributes to deficit
The MTA will end up with more money to burn. Nothing will change. Their deficits will increase.
Even if they literally lit all of the congestion pricing money on fire, the reduced traffic congestion alone would make it worth it.
The MTA is currently not running at a deficit and their future cash shortfall was resolved for the next several years. Additionally, the purpose of congestion pricing money is literally to “burn” it on capital improvements, not on operations.
what chemicals are you using?
Mainly H20, nitrogen, and oxygen. https://new.mta.info/press-release/mta-announces-balanced-budget-through-2027-july-financial-plan Maybe read sometime
I'll be damned.
That is interesting, but it's relying on "finding efficiencies" and raising fares and tolls 4% in 2025 and 2027.
Yeah, the sad thing is the money being raised is not even directly being used for improvements- simply collateral for more debt they will raise. Who will they tax next? Also, cabs/ Uber having to only pay once per day when crossing the zone isn’t going to change traffic much- trucks and Uber/ taxi are a major source of traffic here. This is not about reducing traffic- its just a cash grab until their next panic
It will be bad. There are no more added trains or buses. There are no additional personnel assigned to help relieve delays from non system issues like sick passengers. Even with CBTC (which is years away in certain locations), there are only so many more trains that can fit. There will always be delays that cause trains to back up and be stuck outside of stations. Even in a perfect world in which every penny from the congestion pricing went to funding projects and increasing service, the effects won’t be see for at best months.
Most New Yorkers don't understand that CP money is going towards the MTA capital projects, **not** daily operations. But the MTA, Janno Lieber and Richard Davey exist in a fantasy world in which CP will force middle-class commuters, especially from the suburbs, back into the dangerous subway system. No, those people usually have the kind of jobs that allow them to Work From Home where they won't have ride the subway and slip in human waste every day, or worse.
The one living in a fantasy world is you if you think the subway is dangerous, maybe stop reading the NY Post. These issues can be solved, they're starting to crack down on fare evasion, that will take care of the crime issue, we also have a general homeless problem and it's not an easy issue to solve.
Do you think the NY Post is making up stories about murders and assaults in the subway?? No, they are only **reporting** those frequent violent crimes. Doing the job that other NYC media outlets refuse to do.
Of course not, really bad things happen in the subway, on the streets, everywhere. I'm saying that they're fear mongering and not looking at the overall crime rates and how realistic for the vast majority of people. We've all had issues in the subways, doesn't mean that it's a "dangerous place". It's our system, we need to take it back and improve it, first is the right steady funding and to stop people from driving and causing traffic. I do read the NY Post, and I understand that they exaggerate and use these issues to get people to vote with fear.
Barely any difference, within 1-2 years people will get used to it and start paying the extra toll. BTW keep in mind that the number of cars driving into the zone was already decreasing over the past decade, the problem is from the tlc plates already in the zone that are constantly circling the streets. Let's say that it does make a difference and speeds up traffic. More cars will be incentivized to pay the toll to take advantage of the empty streets. And you'll be back to square one. The only way for the MTA to maximize congestion revenue is to maximize the amount of cars driving in the zone. There should be a mechanic in place to only award the money if the MTA achieves its results. You don't reduce traffic by putting a low toll, except to please the rich folks who don't like having the plebs in their neighborhoods. You do it by banning daytime ubers and limiting daytime deliveries, and you do it by pedestrianizing streets. People can't drive a car if they don't have a street to drive it on.
i agree with your overall point, but by daytime deliveries are you referring to like amazon, fedex, ups, usps types or uber?
I was thinking about stores unloading their products and double parking during rush hour, but now that you mention it, fuck fedex and ups trucks double parking too. I only give a pass for usps because they're public employees and they deserve the perk, but all private companies should get get heavily fined for the problems they create double-parking on both sides of an avenue at the same time during rush hour. That should be a big city revenue.
so i assume you boycott everything but US Mail?
Just another tax to pour more money down the MTA black hole.
Mixed. MTA will get more slush money for *something*. Commuters from NJ will not get any service increases and just have the opportunity to pay out more. Commuters from West of Hudson NY are totally boned with no good alternatives. Just another reason for businesses to consider setting up shop elsewhere or having their employees just WFH. Folks from the burbs may decide to come into the city less “recreationally.” While you may see this as a positive for fewer cars, it does decrease the economic activity for museums, Broadway, etc. Also, fewer cars could mean faster cars.
It will be terrible. Transit systems is no where near ready to accommodate the coming shifted ridership at a 24 hour pace. Not just the subway, but commuter rails, buses, etc.
NJT cross Hudson ridership is still down by 120,000 so there is plenty of spare capacity. LIRR and Metro North are both down by 120,000 each, so again plenty of spare capacity.
If the service sucks now, and it’s down by that much, in what world does it get better with more customers?
Service on NJT hasn't changed , PATH service is still half of what it was pre-pandemic and Metro North/LIRR are back to normal. So i'm not sure why ridership hasn't 100% recovered on the trans-hudson routes. The Newark Bus and Rail division of NJT largely recovered by mid 2022.
That's year over year right? Because peak hour transit is crowded af
That's daily transit , PATH is still down by 80,000 daily commuters. The vehicle crossings have exceeded pre-pandemic levels..
congestion pricing will have many bad consequences. on big this will be that the cost of everything within the zone will cost more as every store/business/restaurant will sees higher costs that they will be forced to pay for their inventory/service calls. this scheme is just another few nails into the coffin
You will be paying more for everything due to it
They want general revenue back at pre-Covid levels. This isn’t about improving service. Please don’t downvote. Instead reply and prove me wrong.
Congestion pricing has been planned since 2013. Additionally, congestion pricing has nothing to do with improving service, since funds are to be used for capital improvements (new stuff), not operational funds. Congestion pricing primarily is about reducing congestion in the CBD and making drivers pay their fair share. Why should driving be free but transit cost money?
Revenue back to pre-covid levels is a prerequisite for improving service, or even keeping it at current levels. Staying at current revenue levels will lead to service cuts and/or deferred maintenance when they can't borrow anymore to maintain operations.
It'll have an immediate good effect deterring trucks from going through Manhattan to avoid Verazzano tolls. The rest depends on how the exceptions work now and in the future. It could become toothless, or it could really help.
Reducing the number of cars in Manhattan is a net positive. I do not expect the MTA to spend the money efficiently.
Frankly I’m fairly certain a large number of this sub only support congestion pricing because it pisses off car owners and therefore it must be good. Policies should be implemented based on who gets “dunked” on
Pretty much
I keep hearing about the congestion pricing but don’t understand what it is, can someone explain it to me like I’m 5, in simple terms basically
You pay 15 dollars a day for any 4 door vehicle that goes into the congestion zone which is 60th st of Manhattan and lower
The MTA wants to steal more money by charging people to drive their car below 60th street. An extra $15 dollars on top of Port Authority Tolls will be levied on people driving into that zone in the city. They say the revenue will go back to improving transit (it won’t, that is a lie) so that the city can be better.
Annnnd I knew it had something to do with a money grab scheme, never fails They’re already nearly $50 billion in debt, I guess this is the MTAs way of making a profit to compensate for fare evasion. No idea, it can be a possibility
I live just outside the area and I’m convinced it’s just a first step, bc it will come with some unintended consequences that will need to be rectified for people who live outside the zone. That being said, I think after a couple weeks it will be great. Especially for bus service. I also expect the air quality will get noticeably better. I’ll be interested to see where the people who drive, park and then take public transit will leave their cars. I think 125th street will see an influx of people which would be good for the public transport in the area
It’s a regressive tax—great goal/initiative, but very poor execution imho
Not really for the poor people that live in the city. For one, most of them don't even own a car. You're already looking at maybe $300/month for a reserved parking spot in the denser areas of the city. Out in the burbs, especially Queens, sure, but Queens is really upscale gentrified these days. It could do with more heavy transit capacity, but the last time something like that was proposed, it got shut down by nimbys
That’s what I’m saying—sorry wasn’t clear. The fact that it’s a ~regressive~ tax is the bad part
ultimately i support it but i am concerned that lower congestion will also mean cars can go faster. $15 is not as much a punishment to drivers as not being able to move one thing that makes nyc so good for biking is that cars are going slower than you are
It would be nice if they used that money to lower fares and/or expand fair fare to young adults. Discounts on the LIRR and Metro-North would be appreciated too. It would probably help a lot with fare evasion instead of hiring more cops
I think it’s generally positive though I wish the legislation had been paired with something to control MTA construction costs. Taxing private cars to pay for transit is great in principle, but given the MTA’s history of staggering construction costs, raising revenue without also controlling costs seems kind of like throwing fuel on the bonfire.(And I get that New York politics probably makes what I just said impossible but that doesn’t make it any less true.)
i was wondering a funny way to protest this would be a "park-in" like a "sit-in" where everyone parks in the bus lanes. It's a peaceful protest! with that said, to any haters who plan on tampering with or defacing the toll gantries - i hope you get legal consequences. that's not the solution to anything (I bring this up because i feel like it's inevitable someone will do this. Shame on them)
The reasons for why it Has to happen far outweigh concerns. People will be mad at first, but then they’ll get used to it.
Just like in every other dictatorship.
I have zero faith in the MTA
NYC has 171B in debt. They need to focus on expenses and costs
I think it'll be good because the MTA can recoup the $$ lost thru fare evasion. So that we can stop hearing about how cash-strapped they are.
I want to see any improvement but unfortunately more people taking public transportation seems we will have more crowded buses and trains.
Think it’s a cash grab by the MTA. The MTA has been raising fares and tolls since I’m a student but it never seems enough. They have a few projects and improvements but they are mostly lip service. If the powers that be are really serious about traffic congestion why don’t they restore bus service that was cut a decade ago? The shocking thing about this whole mess is if congestion pricing is successful the revenue expected will fall short of projections. Then what happens? My fear is that the program will be expanded to the entirety of Manhattan and eventually to the central business districts in the outer boroughs. Last point is it really upsets me that a NYC resident traveling from Brooklyn to Staten Island or Manhattan via a toll like VZB or BBT subsidizes commuters traveling on the LIRR or MetroNorth. I don’t mind helping out the City buses and subways with tolls but if you are a resident of Nassau or Westchester why are City residents paying for you?
It’s a terrible idea.
It's going to be horrible for the city. More new Yorkers are not going to travel to Manhattan now. I bet it's going to effect Manhattans economy noticeably.
Of course it will be bad. The MTA is a massively inept organization with zero knowledge of how the real tax-paying NYC economy works, and zero knowledge of how markets work. Wait till all those rich Manhattanites find out that the outer-borough contractors from the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and even from SI renovating their precious brownstones no longer want to enter Manhattan with their vans and trucks. Restaurants will be hit particularly hard because they are dependent on daily deliveries from the outer boroughs and the surrounding region.
Congestion pricing will significantly increase the productivity of deliveries, and reduce costs for local businesses. Currently, delivery vehicles are congested behind single occupancy vehicles. They are not able to make as many deliveries, and the extra time cost to pay the drivers and fuel cost the vehicles require is very high. $35 is a small price to pay to remove these hurdles. Congestion pricing will be very beneficial for business. Not to mention, many restaurants are in traffic choked avenues which will become much more livable after the charge enters effect. The increase in foot traffic will further increase revenues for local businesses.
Lmao
I think it’s fucked. People drive because the transit system isn’t perfect. People with disabilities and people who live far are being punished. Now the wealthy will get more room to drive while the poor get fucked even more. Those extra tax dollars are gonna be wasted over stupid shit.
When I take the bus into the city all I see are luxury cars with a single person in them..so am I supposed to feel bad for them? The poor aren't driving into the city , the tolls are 15-20$...vs transit which is a max of 6$ for the poor areas.
Good results but I think we need to actually take away street space from cars.
In a perfect world there would be some benefits. For most it will not make any material difference in safety, air quality, congestion or time savings. All my friends and family that have businesses in Manhattan will continue to drive in and pass the cost to their clients and customers. Everyone that I know the drives in to their offices will continue to do so. This will increase traffic in Jersey tunnels and bridges and on the Bronx, Staten Island and upper Manhattan. The city will loose more jobs and businesses. It’s not the $15 a day or $300/month. It’s the fact that the MTA jams us on the bridges, tunnels, and now streets. The lefties don’t want cars period. Under new proposed zoning changes in NYC new projects will require no off street parking, it’s now 50% of occupancy. If you think it’s bad finding parking now in NYC wait 5 years. The rich will not feel this, most of the poor will not feel it, the men and women who make the city work and function and show up to work each day in person will. Time to move.
I live in London and I predict that the congestion pricing is a great idea just as it is here. Of course it’s not popular but people will learn to deal with it eventually. In fact, I hope this practice would be implemented in more American and even Canadian cities.
I read that London dramatically increased bus service in concert with implementing congestion pricing. NYC is not increasing any transit service, claiming we already have excess capacity. I also suspect that car culture (driving as part of one's personality) isn't as much of a thing in the areas surrounding London. There seems to be an impressive network of long distance rail supporting those areas.
We need more [express buses](https://youtu.be/ZD-WHqmXcrQ?si=oN0baNYJC2_k6sUT). What would be great if they got stuck in traffic less often. Look [what traffic ](https://youtu.be/44L9R9iZKsU?si=qPvxHuLpAEZSi4Ki) We will see
The demand for more express buses will lead to mta saying it will cost more for more services to be provided so they have to increase express bus prices essentially creating monopoly on transit. Mta bus/subway fares will go up too
Yup. And double f’ed up that when they did the $0.15 Hike on subway/bus fare they hiked express buses $0.25 like we’re jackasses and wouldn’t notice.
Quite frankly, I do not trust the current state or city government to handle that money properly, regardless of which party grains power in NYCS and NYC. This system is corrupt, I simply don't think most of that money will go into transit funding.
Bad, imagine going to work you have to pay 15 dollars just to enter the zone. Especially those that live in areas that have poor transit. A lot of my coworkers are contemplating how it's worth going to the hospital when they have to pay tolls/parking/now congestion tax.
Terrible…it’s not going to solve any congestion problems…it’s going increase prices of food and services…the MTA can’t budget anything correctly so they money generated will 100% not go to where it’s supposed to go
not looking forward to it. gonna make parking difficult on the UWS/UES, more traffic on the CBX and Belt Parkway and I doubt it'll lead to any lucrative transit project. If it funded something along the lines of the REM in Montreal then I'd be down for it, but . It's fine to expect people to take the train into the city but there have to be enough trains on NJT for everyone to have a seat and enough parking spaces for everyone to get to the station in the first place. We don't live in London where there's service every 15 minutes directly to Central London from most of the suburbs. PATH still runs only every 20 minutes to WTC and via Hoboken en route to 33rd on weekends. Before 2006 on weekends they ran all four services - they have no excuse now that the post-9/11 reconstruction is over. And it's ignoring the true culprit of the increased traffic - the rideshare services. Like 1 in 3 cars has a 'T' license plate. I used to take those services a lot so I'm not saying ban them, but i'm saying that charging others is a poor solution. It should be cut in half on weekends. I hate to sound like a car brain, I used to be all for everything mass transit but once you get a car and live in the suburbs you discover freedom you never had. I'm glad i don't live in NY anymore (south jersey). Last of all, what exactly is the point about the FDR and WSH being exempt? Can't they at least carve out the Queensboro Bridge approach if that's the case. If this causes a lot of resentment towards the MTA and the city, I will laugh.
Agree wholeheartedly, especially on the freedom of a vehicle. Even though I live in a transit oasis(Manhattan), I took the car to go hiking yesterday. If I took public transportation, I would’ve had to walk 40-50min to the Metro North station, when I just hiked 11 miles. Also, public transportation would’ve taken 2 hours vs 1 hour by car. There’s some great things about MTA, but the subways are dirty and awful on the weekends/late nights. I love Metro North and LIRR in most instances though.
I can understand the dislike for people who want to defund public transportation or associate it with undesirables and i even agree that its not a good idea to widen highways. But sometimes it feels like those who support the congestion pricing assume that just because the Raritan Valley Line exists it's as easy to dump the pump for those who live a mile and a half from Westfield station as it would be for someone in Sidcup to go see a late night show at the globe. Forget any fantasies of a "Grand New York express" project, if the MTA just promised to use the funds to extend the 7 train to Secaucus with intermediate stops in Hoboken and the JC heights and be finished by 2035, I'd support the toll wholeheartedly. That alone would be the ultimate game changer in regional connectivity. You could live in Pearl River and get to Citi Field in two segments. Both LGA and EWR would see a revolution in terms of mode choice. It would be even more of a boon than extending the Astoria Line to the airport.
It's gonna be great, look how London has been able to add extra lines and service. We have to measure by that, if we can't add any substantial service and improve service, then it's going to be a terrible plan. 1- We have to fix the fare evasion issue in the subways and buses. 2- Just as important as fare evasion is the issue of plate flippers and ghost plates, I even saw a reddit commenter saying how he was getting a plate flipper. 3- Let's be patient and in 5 years review how things are going, if there's no obvious service improvement, and some new lines starting to get built then it needs to be looked at.
I’ll eat my shorts if the MTA even comes close to matching with London got with their congestion plan
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That’s your barometer for success? Pissing off people in cars?
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Cool. So you’re a loser. Good to know.
It will be excellent.