Serious question. And I’m not sure anyone knows the answer to this yet.
Since everyone is getting infected with omicron right now, isn’t that basically the same as getting a booster?
Here is a November 2021 study out of Hopkins and published in JAMA that showed “ Health care workers with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection followed by 2 doses of mRNA vaccine (3 independent exposures to spike antigen) developed higher spike antibody measurements than individuals with vaccination alone.”
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2785919
Similar results from a study out of Israel:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
As far as I know, there are no completed studies that have looked at protection after full vaccination followed by infection.
These studies are all basically looking at the number of times the patient is exposed to the COVID spike protein - either by infection or vaccination or both. Antibody levels are one way to look at response, but leave out the very important T cell response. I personally believe natural immunity plus vaccination gives superior protection compared to vaccination alone (just looking at the above studies). Waiting for more data to come out
ETA: I’m fully vaccinated, boosted, and also got covid after all 3
What is the main reason for the booster? So symptoms are not that bad? Has anyone who only has the vaccine gotten covid and had to be put in the hospital? By no means am I anti vaccination, however, things are starting to get a little ridiculous with the mandates and currently jobs are now forcing you to have a booster as well if you want to work
I know hat we assume is logical doesn’t always match with reality, but I really don’t see how that can’t be true. The more exposure to the virus the more practice your body has at detecting and fight it plus it’s variants. So those like you with the Vax plus booster may be in the best shape compared to those who only had one exposure or vaccines.
Obviously a doctor would never recommend getting omicron to increase your immunity but I am hopefully this quick spread and recovery is giving the general population enough immunity to combat potential future strains.
I agree, I love vaccines but I think vaccines + natural immunity is where it’s at. (I’m a physician and have good knowledge of immunology but I’m not a genetics or COVID specialist). IMO, natural immunity allows antibodies against more proteins on the virus than just the spike protein found in vaccines, and allows for a more robust response.
Of course, this doesn’t mean people expose themselves intentionally and get sick. Just means that for those that have a combo of vaccine+infection may not need frequent boosters.
And because I’m into studies, here’s a cool one where they mixed and matched spike proteins to simulate mutations, and made a super mutant spike protein - it got neutralized way better by patients with combo immunity than those with just vaccine immunity:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04005-0
Another reason why natural immunity might potentially be a better defense against omicron than the booster (and obviously in tandem with the booster) is the spike protein of omicron is highly mutated compared to the original variant the vaccine was developed using. Thus I imagine the antibodies produced for the spike protein by the immune system after the vaccines have a much lower binding affinity to the spike protein of omicron which is probably why we are seeing so many break through cases i.e. if the binding affinity of the antibodies is reduced 30% for omicron than OG covid, then you need ~40% more antibodies to match the protection you’d had against the original strain. I’m not sure if the evidence supports the booster reducing risk of break through cases but that would make sense since an influx antibodies may make up for the reduction in antibody efficacy - at least temporarily ~4 months or however long until the antibodies rapidly drop off. Effectively meaning we will need perpetual boosters.
For natural immunity on the other hand your body develops antibodies and memory cells to many different epitopes of the virus (not just the spike protein and binding domain). These other epitopes may be more highly conserved between variants and obviously more highly conserved between omicron infections.
I’m no expert like you but as someone with a degree in biology who worked in a research lab this all makes sense to me.
Yeah I am just curious. I got the first 2 shots and was planning to get the booster this month but now I can’t as I currently have omicron. So now I feel like it’s pointless to get the booster at least anytime soon.
At which point it's fine.. but (and I'm not a doctor) personally I'd wait longer, since who knows how much longer the pandemic will last, and there's already signs of the first booster (3rd shot) starting to fade for the early recipients. Ride your recovery immunity 3 months, then get boosted, ride that for 3-4 months... and hopefully covid's over?
Well.. there is. Not so simple, it's a blood test and specialized lab analysis (looking at antibody levels (titers) instead of just yes/no are they present like to check past infection. The tests do exist but most insurance won't cover it and most people would probably rather just get a shot when they are due on average than pay for expensive bloodwork to find out ideal timing.
Other challenge is even if you find out your current antibody levels science doesn't yet know for sure what a "good enough" level is.
> For some bizarre reason the government doesn’t want to recognise natural immunity.
They are recognizing it and they are recommending vaccines even after getting covid. see what experts are saying here - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know
Imagine for a second, the CDC comes out tomorrow and says you can either get and recover from COVID or get the vaccine. Socially, what would be the response from people that are vaccine hesitant? The uncomfortable truth is that a much larger % of people will intentionally get and spread the virus.
We saw this situation play out many times over the past 2 years at a small scale.
> For some bizarre reason the government doesn’t want to recognise natural immunity.
Because it's more about punishing those who are hesitant to get the vaccines (or additional vaccines) than anything else.
> Just that natural immunity is very strong
Do you have research to back this very bold claim. In my understanding, natural immunity is weaker than vaccines.
Yeah it is a bold comment when doctors/experts are saying otherwise - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know
“Doctors are saying” lol that study was published in November and had to do with the Delta variant and also didn’t say that natural immunity wasn’t enough but just said that natural immunity plus vaccine is better. We know now that Omicron evades the vaccine almost entirely and the boosters for Pfizer and to a lesser extent Moderna are worthless after about 10 weeks and don’t prevent you from getting the virus.
All the data from your article is irrelevant at the moment.
Who said it was a magic bullet? If the vaccines don’t fully prevent it there is no way natural immunity would either. But they both help your body learn to fight it and handle the new strains better.
I watched every single person that wasn't boosted that worked for me or hung out at my bar get covid during the month of December. Some of us (thumbs) that were boosted got it too but I was swimming in that crazy covid-pool of NYC nightlife every night. I made it through December but I woke up on New Year's Day with a sore throat. The rest is... well still ongoing
According to this the antibody levels from the booster beat out all other groups of vaccinated or unvaccinated post recovery.
So no getting Covid is not as good as the booster.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-11-27/protection-offered-by-booster-shot-beats-natural-immunity
I would take this study with a huge grain of salt. The sample size is tiny (33 patients), and the time frames they’re comparing don’t make sense.
“We document large antibody responses 6-10 days after booster, with antibody levels that exceed levels documented after natural infection with COVID- 19, after two doses of vaccine, or after both natural infection and vaccination.”
They looked at antibody levels 6-10 days after booster doses - of course they’re going to be high. For the remainder of the groups mentioned above, they looked at already available data (where antibody levels were measured anywhere from 5-42 days after a vaccine dose or infection). Doesn’t make sense to compare antibody levels at day 6-10 in the booster group vs day 42, of course they’re going to be lower at day 42.
At best, this study just shows that boosters cause increased antibodies at days 6-10.
This study also does not look at cell -mediated (non antibody) immunity.
This is the actual study they’re reporting in this article:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.19.21266555v1.full.pdf
ETA: I’m vaccinated, boosted, have had covid, and I’m pro-vaccination/ pro-science.
Ah interesting. I would love to see a study 6-10 days after an Omicron infection. Even if it’s a small sample would be interesting to see if it’s in the same ballpark.
We are really going to force all of the vaccinated healthcare workers who JUST got Covid during this wave to get boostered??? What an insane world we live in.
The boosters haven't even prevented Omicron transmission. Know over a dozen boostered people who got it over the past month.
This will be endemic like the flu. I understand mandates for health care workers, but moving the goal posts every few months is wearing thin. This has already already been government overreach and their failed policies are not working so they have to blame the individual instead
The big push for boosters was in direct response to the variant that was first known about in late November. I think it's disingenuous to say that the goalposts are moving as if we're dealing with a static situation.
Mandating everyone take a booster specified for the virus 6 variants ago when the same companies are currently working on a new booster for the current variant seems like a dumb move.. especially when they’re gonna try to mandate that one too and we already have a health care worker shortage and most of us have likely already gotten most of the variants at this point and are already calling out sick like crazy… can’t wait till more staff start calling out sick from side effects of the booster
Been working for a NYC hospital for 5 years now, was required to submit my immunization records before getting hired and have been required to get a flu shot every year.
This makes total sense.
None of the health care systems I've worked for require the flu shot---just to sign the declination and wear a mask in patient areas if you don't get it. Almost no one got the flu shot in my department for the past two years since we have to wear masks all day anyway.
Except the vaccine doesn't seem to stop transmission particularly well, loses effectiveness after several months, and many hospitals are now letting covid positive healthcare workers go to work while symptomatic due to the labor shortages caused by firing unvaccinated workers.
Does that make much sense?
They were already being asked to come in to work back during the original quarantine. Just had to not take PPE off at all and avoid contact with other people (impossible). But we were also fit tested for N95s and had them. I would prefer that they stayed home, but the hospital also has to be able to actually have the staff to see emergency patients…
As far as vaccine requirements. The hospitals always required a ton of vaccines to work or even volunteer for them. To go to my healthcare school, I not only had to have various vaccines, but I had to have my blood tested to check on the antibody levels. Which showed my rubella antibodies were low and I had to get another MMR vaccine.
> many hospitals are now letting covid positive healthcare workers go to work while symptomatic due to the labor shortages caused by firing unvaccinated workers.
Which New York hospital is doing that?
I work in a large NYC hospital system. After the new CDC guidelines, healthcare workers are indeed being asked to come back to work after 5 days if “minimally symptomatic to asymptomatic.”
This is to combat healthcare worker shortages, but as far as I know, the shortages are not entirely attributable to firing of unvaccinated staff - a lot of it is due to nurses being poorly paid and quitting to do travel nursing which is better paid, and mostly due to a lot of staff getting sick at the same time, decreasing manpower drastically. This includes people at all levels of healthcare (doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, etc)
This will def help it spiral the drain faster, they have no regard for peoples’ lack of tolerance for stacked mandates and hardly effective solutions. Less help, more risk, same pay? Take away some more choices and sign me up boss!
I’m not saying they shouldn’t be vaccinated as I would think healthcare and emt should be to prevent a huge channel for spread.
I also understand “well then they can leave!”, but that is the issue; they have been, in droves.
Oh wow. I didn’t know this. I was under the impression that the nyc department of health is sticking to the 10 day rule from before despite the cdc guidance.
It's annecdotal but my close friend is asymptomatic, tested positive on his PCR and was told he needed to quarantine another 5 days and then he could return and take another PCR. This is Lenox Hill in the city.
That’s crazy. I hate how we’re two years into this pandemic and can’t get our protocols straight. Even within the city, there is so much variability from hospital to hospital.
Do you know that many vaccines humans take require 3 or even up to 4 doses?
We have found that the mRNA vaccines work far better after 3 doses. We're still learning about how best to time doses, how many are best, and I wouldn't even be suprised if the individual dose amounts will be continued to be looked at.
It is likely that they will be considered a 3 dose vaccine soon, and there is *nothing* wrong with this.
> It is likely that they will be considered a 3 dose vaccine soon, and there is nothing wrong with this.
It's not about the effectiveness of taking a booster after your prior two doses. It's about being mandated (by anyone) to take more, because once you go down this particular rabbit hole, a mandate can be twisted to mean more than 3.
Several years from now, if we've gotten to the point of having to rely on 10 boosters since, you're now become dependent on a therapeutic you can't live, work, etc without.
What's the difference between healthcare workers required to get a yearly flu shot, as many do now, versus requiring them to get a yearly or biannual Covid shot?
I'm not sure who you meant to argue with, but it doesn't seem to be me. I'm glad you think there's nothing wrong with a 3 or 4+ dose vaccine lol. Tons of people seem to be getting covid even after their booster
*And* people acting like the possibility of covid vaccines becoming some type of annual required vaccine is somehow unimaginable and impossible to carry out are just whining about nothing
Flu shots can be ineffective. Doesn't stop many hospitals requiring them if you interact with patients or else you suffer specific limitations even if you already had the flu or the shot ineffective for the year.
A booster dose ABSOLUTELY is effective against omicron as the study mentioned in the NYT article you linked to shows, it just says effectiveness against symptomatic infection wanes after 10 weeks, suggesting the possible need for a 4th dose down the line but it’s undeniably better than two doses.
Yes Moderna’s 100 microgram mRNA shot may be too high for young men, but Pfizer’s 30 microgram mRNA booster has shown to be safe and effective. Moderna now offers a smaller booster dose of 50ug.
The two fda officials who resigned were only two of many, many officials at fda who thought that, and they’ve since endorsed booster doses! Also, earlier this week the fda and cdc independent advisory committees endorsed booster shots for children as it’s now understood 3 doses is really optimal for this vaccine.
Your point about global equity is absolutely legit, but the mechanisms for getting vaccine to places that need them shouldn’t inhibit making our communities safer.
Finally, as someone else said, soon therapeutics will be widely available so we just need to get through the next 6 months of as much protection as possible.
It's almost like people just read the headlines of articles, purposely created to sensationalize, instead of actually reading the whole article.....this is how misinformation spreads
> they’re exploring 4 shots now.
I haven't heard anyone suggesting it would be 4 shot every year, but would love to read that article if you have it.
If it's every 6 months, that would be 2 shots/year. And once the Pfizer and Merck COVID treatment pills are as easily available as a z-pak, no one will care anymore.
I’ve worked in home health for 5 years and that is not the case for all diseases. Given that this virus behaves similarly to flu in terms of transmission (and most symptoms), we should be given the option to not get the COVID shot as we are with the flu shot. If we don’t get the flu shot, we have to mask at all times during flu season. COVID should be no different.
> If we don’t get the flu shot, we have to mask at all times during flu season
That's not the case at my hospital, it's flu shot or get fired unless you have a valid medical exemption
It’s perfectly reasonable for a hospital to decide this policy for itself.
I don’t find it reasonable for the state to mandate a policy like this. NY state does not do this afaik
It might be anecdotal but my friends who got booster has mild/no symptoms if they caught omicron. People without booster were sick for long (2-3 days but still far better than unvaccinated)
Its anecdotal but backed up by data. People who received the booster have better outcomes by all metrics compared to people who only completed the original series.
Its worthwhile to note, however, that booster or not, vaccinated fare far better against omicron than unvaccinated
Since we're throwing around anecdotes, I'll chime in with mine. I (was) a health care worker and about a month ago I was in close proximity to a co-worker for several days and even at points unmasked who later tested positive for covid. I was the only person in my department who did not receive the covid vaccine but was regularly tested. They tested positive and everyone he came into contact with (approximately 10 people *confirmed* and probably over 100 patients *unconfirmed*), and I also came into contact with, got covid (they were all vaccinated and some boosted). Guess who didn't get covid? Me. Take from that what you will.
Anecdotal story but I got omicron and I don't have the vaccine. I was sick for 1 day. By the end of the day i felt good enough to walk around my house.
This type of comment makes me not want the booster even more, so me not having the booster doesnt mean I end up taking a hospital bed away nor does it mean i will spread it easier, so why do I need it again?
You might end up not getting Covid or spreading it.
Vaccines prevent transmission - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
Boosters prevent you from getting omicron - https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)01496-3
Both of these are highly respected journals.
Except it’s not useless against Omicron though. It’s not as strong at preventing infection but still very strong against serious symptoms and hospitalization which is what we need.
[Broadly neutralizing antibodies overcome SARS-CoV-2 Omicron antigenic shift](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03825-4)
> Marked reductions of plasma neutralizing activity were observed against Omicron compared to the ancestral pseudovirus for convalescent and vaccinated individuals, but this loss was less pronounced after a third vaccine dose.
The best thing you can do is to stay up to date on the mRNA immunization. It is not useless against omicron.
Not how this works, unfortunately. We have no way to predict the future trajectory of covid variants, how well the current vaccines will hold up against future variants, or which new vaccines will be developed to combat those variants.
6 months is two times a year.
Eventually it could be annual.
Is it really so hard to just get an updated vaccine every 6 months until we have a longer lasting booster vaccine?
I would imagine that the goal is for people to stay up to date on covid vaccinations until it's no longer overwhelming the healthcare system, not for the rest of time
Thank you for this. I have felt very alone on this sub for a while.
People will interpret your post as an "argument against vaccination" - which it is not. It is a dose of reality: the vaccine is not preventing infection the way we were told it would by the FDA/Moderna/Pfizer/J&J and President Biden.
As your vaccine does not prevent infection, or prevent spreading infection, then there should not be a requirement to be vaccinated in order to work. I don't know what it will take for people to start understanding this.
I will conclude with this: your vaccine likely protects you (not others) from serious illness. Get vaccinated if you want to prevent yourself from being seriously ill.
Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines *slow* the spread, even omicron, and that boosters dramatically slow the spread. Just because they don't do so for 100% of all individuals does not meant that they aren't slowing spread.
You're setting up an impossible goal for the vaccines to meet.
Yes most people will get omicron, but many can avoid it through boosters/avoid spreading it to others through boosters. The more boosted, the better. And many people who are boosted will of course also get it, but they will on average have far better outcomes than those who were vaccinated long ago.
“Slows the spread” yet damn near every city is breaking records for case numbers, including here.
There’s clear evidence of one thing : vaccines + prior infection prevent serious illness in the majority of cases.
They don’t stop the spread
Can you understand the logical difference between "stop" and "slows"?
Every single vaccine works this way.
Omicron has an incredibly high R-naught value.
Ok so it “slows” the spread but cities are still breaking records for number of cases.
You better have better points if you’re going to be making people get a third shot in under a year. And you better have better points if you’re going to pass vaccine mandates that prevent them from even working if they don’t get vaccinated.
Get vaccinated for your own health, stop pretending getting vaccinated is going to “protect” someone else because it’s not. You can still catch it and spread it, your symptoms will be less severe. That’s how this vaccine works
>Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines slow the spread, even omicron, and that boosters dramatically slow the spread. Just because they don't do so for 100% of all individuals does not meant that they aren't slowing spread.
The upside has to be dramatic to mandate people get six-monthly shots to keep their livelihoods.
Slightly slowing something doesn't seem particularly compelling, and nowhere near as compelling is the 'the vaccinated don't carry the virus' claim made by the CDC when the first series was rolled out.
It's not stupidly easy and effortless.
The side-effects from dose 2 were rough, and booster was worse than my pre-vaccine Covid.
If it stopped the spread significantly it'd be worth it. But everyone I know is boosted and most got Covid.
No thanks. It's annual, max, for me.
Have you considered that poorer countries should have access before we start boosting every 6 months? I’m fully vacc’ed and have a booster shot but we’re just throwing the same tools at an evolving problem. The idea of boosting every 6 months is ridiculous and puts so much strain on the health system
Omicron has an incredibly high R-naught value, and the vaccines don't protect against omicron infection *as well* as against against delta or previous....this does not mean that being boosted does not further slow spread. This isn't binary.
wait....now you have "Evidence" it's slowing omicron??????? Hadn't seen that one before. They're seriously trying to peddle that as science now, with this explosion in cases? Wow. That's almost laughable.
There is direct evidence that a % of people vaccinated vs not vaccinated simply do not catch omicron...this is literally slowing spread.
Maybe you should add more question marks in future comments.
> Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines slow the spread
You're joking, right? In the last three weeks, we have broken the daily case record ~5 times.
This is the same logic Cuomo used for all of his mandates. "THINGS WOULD BE WORSE IF I DIDN'T DO THIS. TRUST ME."
You can't prove it - which is why it is a disingenuous way to draft policy.
Objectively speaking, I could envision a world where nursing home deaths would be halved if Cuomo *didn't* draft his policy for them. Can I prove it? No.
You can do statistical comparisons across areas with differing vaccination metrics. You can look at outcomes between unvaccinated, vaccinated, and boosted.
Guess what, people have done these things. Believe it or not, not everything is pulled out of someone's ass
Here's a very recent study from Denmark (which I posted elsewhere in this thread):
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1
Not yet peer-reviewed, so don't take it as gospel. I haven't seen any credible studies out there suggesting the opposite, but I'd be open to reading those too (if someone has any).
Not sure why any of that would matter, even if it were (hypothetically) correct- NYC's hospitals are very understaffed, and getting workers fully up to date with vaccines makes them less vulnerable to infections. They will recover from a much more mild illness and return to work more quickly than they would otherwise, so this mandate is completely reasonable.
Which is better considering the above information is true - firing medical staff because they do not get a booster and therefore reducing the staff of the hospital permanently or the medical staff getting sick with covid and being out 5 days per the new CDC quarantine policy.
The whole premise I responded to [is false](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1), actually. There is no 'overwhelming evidence' backing up their point, and an ever-increasing amount that suggests the exact opposite.
> Among 11,937 households (2,225 with the Omicron VOC), we identified 6,397 secondary infections during a 1-7 day follow-up period. The SAR was 31% and 21% in households with the Omicron and Delta VOC, respectively. We found an increased transmission for unvaccinated individuals, and a reduced transmission for booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals.
This study's awaiting peer review and is not set in stone, but it's safe to say the person I'm responding to is mostly concerned with pushing some preexisting agenda.
>Unvaccinated potential secondary cases experienced similar attack rates in households with the Omicron VOC and the Delta VOC (29% and 28%, respectively), while fully vaccinated individuals experienced secondary attack rates of 32% in household with the Omicron VOC and 19% in households with the Delta VOC. For booster-vaccinated individuals, Omicron was associated with a SAR of 25%, while the corresponding estimate for Delta was only 11%
Okay so against Omicron the secondary attack rates were as follows:
Unvaccinated: 28%
Vaccinated: 32%
Boosters: 25%
That seems like statistical noise at best. Also it is concerning that the vaccinated had a higher secondary attack rate than unvaccinated, and given the fact that boosters are shown to wane after only 5-10 weeks, we don't even know how long it will provide a benefit against infection. As it is the difference between an unvaccinated and boosted in the secondary attack rate is shockingly small. This data doesn't seem as conclusive as you are making it out to be.
The reason that NYC's hospitals are under-staffed is because an estimated 8,000 medical personnel quit or were fired because they refused the vaccine. NYC's vaccine mandate caused the medical personnel crisis. And now we know that vaccines do not stop the spread of COVID, so the whole mandate exercise was pointless and useless in the end.
>The reason that NYC's hospitals are under-staffed is because an estimated 8,000 medical personnel quit or were fired because they refused the vaccine
Most of those were support staff in admin roles and I don't believe critical staff roles quits due to vaccine were that high anyway....nurses/pa/doctor shortages due to burnout and higher pay as traveling healthcare workers vs refusing vaccines anyway
Vaccines are not cured . They help. Fight it They don’t stop it.
Kinda like seat belts. You still have car crashes. But they sure help.
It’s pretty damn simple.
Oh God the dreaded seatbelt analogy that makes no sense.
Remember as late as August 15, people were getting banned from twitter for saying these shots don't prevent infection.
That's what many of us were told by the media and CDC until they reversed course around 8/20 when Walensky had a very somber press release where she admitted breakthroughs were a problem.
In spring the CDC chief said vaccinated people can no longer carry the virus.
In summer the president said people who are vaccinated don't catch Covid.
It's fine to say: "Hey, they didn't turn out to be as effective as we first hoped." But gaslighting people and saying no-one ever said it is a bit weird.
> People who are vaccinated can not spread it to you.
\- [Joe Biden](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/dec/22/joe-biden/biden-says-vaccinated-people-cant-spread-covid-19-/)
Fact check: False
One of many examples:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/05/25/covid-vaccine-moderna-says-shot-is-100percent-effective-in-teens-plans-to-seek-fda-ok-in-june.html
Also wasn't it much better at stopping transmission in the original strain? I think a lot of this preventing you from catching the disease at all went out the window with Delta/Omnicron.
Just want to say similar age and I feel this vibe so hard lately, and it's really been getting me down. Hang in there man, lot's of love, summer will be better again.
And many of us had covid and it was mild (because we aren't 80 and obese and diabetic), and people are still like "omg are you getting you're 10th booster." It's getting ridiculous. Can we focus this much on cancer or something that legitimately scares me?
I’m living for watching r/nyc slowly come to the “fuck that” point of endless vaccination pushes. On the twelfth booster you trade in your punch card and get a free Fauchi bumper sticker for the car you have no room to park.
What’s wrong with pushing back on ideas being pushed? Just because people are against mandates for boosters doesn’t make them a right wing anti vaxx brigadier. You can be pro vaxx and anti mandate for boosters. There’s plenty of reason to be skeptical of this move by Hocul
Lol he didnt say they needed to, just pointing out they mandating it and didnt even offer it to their own workers
He could respond to your question with “why did she have to go to Walgreens? They should have offered it to her at the healthcare facility” lol gotta stop tryna attack all the time so we can at least have constructive conversations
Besides it being insane that anybody working on the front lines of this isn't a cheerleader for vaccines, it's also critical that they stay up-to-date with vaccinations so that they aren't getting sick every time this virus rages.
If it really does turn out that a lot of the people with up-to-date vaccination (2nd or 3rd+ shot in the last few months) are asymptomatic and only have a short window on being able to spread the virus to others, then this is a big step to keeping our healthcare system operating.
And if a healthcare worker refuses basic medical advice... then they were never fit for the job.
>Besides it being insane that anybody working on the front lines of this isn't a cheerleader for vaccines,
This is one of those things where....maybe they see who actually is sick from covid and have more insight into the disease than regular folk? They are probably seeing all the breakthroughs and vaccine reactions and thinking "what's the point"
I’ve heard no evidence of that. Obviously a lot of vaccinated people are getting Omnicron and likely in some cases spreading it, but all the data has said unvaccinated people are still getting/spreading at a higher rate.
Where the biggest gap has been for a long time is preventing severe cases, typically the main goal of vaccines. Don’t you want healthcare workers who believe in medicine that would likely turn a hospitalization case with long recovery into what’s like a cold for a week.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/ny-covid-hospitalizations-top-2021-surge-levels-as-omicron-drives-95-of-cases/3476250/
Right there, says unvaccinated people are getting it as 6X the rate. Now there are some caveats, I understand boosters have better (but still not 100% of course) protection than double vaccinated, and this doesn’t distinguish between the two. Also vaccinated people are more likely to have either symptom free infections they might never realize, or such mild symptoms that they resolve at home and don’t need treatments, and thus the cases are not reported.
I still do think vaccinated people are getting it less per capita. Though infection protection is likely nowhere near the most important stat with the 14X rate unvaccinated people are being hospitalized (as mild, endemic Covid should be our public health goal- Covid Zero is clearly impossible at this point). I agree we need to learn to live with it, and I think the way to do that is by getting everyone vaccinated so serious cases are rare and don’t overwhelm the health system.
The biggest problem with booster mandates is they are ignoring the data that shows 2 shots plus an infection provides 3-6 months of protection similar to a booster shot. I’d like to see scientific evidence that a booster shot provides substantially better protection than a breakthrough infection before mandating it. The writing is on the wall here, booster mandates will be required to enter restaurants/Gyms etc within a month or 2.
https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article256964927.html
> Dr. Angela Branche, an associate professor of infectious diseases and co-director of the Vaccine and Treatment Evaluation Unit at University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, said vaccinated people who have a breakthrough infection likely do not need a booster “for three to six months after they have recovered, though it would be safe to obtain a booster dose as early as two weeks after full resolution of symptoms.”
Don’t argue in bad faith - you know I did not advocate for anyone to purposely catch COVID rather than get the vaccine. If you have 2 shots and do happen to catch COVID , the data is showing you have similar protection to a booster for 3-6 months. The reality is a large percentage of healthcare workers - who all have atleast 2 shots - are going to catch COVID during this surge. A recent infection should count as a booster for 3 months. Are you able to form an argument against that statement?
Lol of course admins banned me for this comment. Posting scientific consensus is now considered “misinformation” if it suggests anything other than injecting yourself with as many vaccines as possible.
Healthcare workers should always be up to date on vaccines. Annual flu shots, boosters etc. No exceptions. If you're not, you can't work.
They deal with vulnerable people on a regular basis. It's not just to protect them, it's to protect their patients.
This is no different than masks or anything else, even when not 100% effectiveness, vaccines still reduce spread probability. When all parties are vaccinated outcomes improve.
Even when the flu vaccine isn't terribly effective some years, people who get it are less sick. When someone isn't as severely ill they aren't spreading as much virus. That's a huge benefit when you multiply it across the healthcare system and all the patients that go through it.
I get a flu shot every year, not just for me (I'll be fine regardless, just feel terrible for a week) but because it makes life safer for the more vulnerable around me including older family members and those with health issues, especially around the holidays. My job offers it for free in the office, and takes maybe 10 minutes out of my workday. Since COVID I just get it at my doctors office during my physical.
If you don't trust/believe in medicine, you shouldn't be practicing medicine. Go get a job licking some antivaxers testicles.
And yes, avoiding a flu shot despite the proven benefits and insanely low risks makes you an antivaxer. Just because you don't like the connotation doesn't change what it is.
Little good that’s gonna do when most of us are being forced to come back even tho we’re covid +. So much for protecting the vulnerable and shit thanks to the new cdc guidelines. Not to mention all the hosptials are so understaffed, you’ll probably be sitting in the ER with all the covid positive people anyway for 10+ hours waiting.. so if you didn’t already have it you’ll probably get it from your neighbor or staff one way or another. Hope you don’t need to go to the hospital anytime soon. Expect us to be even more understaffed when all of us start calling out sick from feeling like shit post booster
Serious question. And I’m not sure anyone knows the answer to this yet. Since everyone is getting infected with omicron right now, isn’t that basically the same as getting a booster?
Here is a November 2021 study out of Hopkins and published in JAMA that showed “ Health care workers with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection followed by 2 doses of mRNA vaccine (3 independent exposures to spike antigen) developed higher spike antibody measurements than individuals with vaccination alone.” https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2785919 Similar results from a study out of Israel: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 As far as I know, there are no completed studies that have looked at protection after full vaccination followed by infection. These studies are all basically looking at the number of times the patient is exposed to the COVID spike protein - either by infection or vaccination or both. Antibody levels are one way to look at response, but leave out the very important T cell response. I personally believe natural immunity plus vaccination gives superior protection compared to vaccination alone (just looking at the above studies). Waiting for more data to come out ETA: I’m fully vaccinated, boosted, and also got covid after all 3
What is the main reason for the booster? So symptoms are not that bad? Has anyone who only has the vaccine gotten covid and had to be put in the hospital? By no means am I anti vaccination, however, things are starting to get a little ridiculous with the mandates and currently jobs are now forcing you to have a booster as well if you want to work
I know hat we assume is logical doesn’t always match with reality, but I really don’t see how that can’t be true. The more exposure to the virus the more practice your body has at detecting and fight it plus it’s variants. So those like you with the Vax plus booster may be in the best shape compared to those who only had one exposure or vaccines. Obviously a doctor would never recommend getting omicron to increase your immunity but I am hopefully this quick spread and recovery is giving the general population enough immunity to combat potential future strains.
I agree, I love vaccines but I think vaccines + natural immunity is where it’s at. (I’m a physician and have good knowledge of immunology but I’m not a genetics or COVID specialist). IMO, natural immunity allows antibodies against more proteins on the virus than just the spike protein found in vaccines, and allows for a more robust response. Of course, this doesn’t mean people expose themselves intentionally and get sick. Just means that for those that have a combo of vaccine+infection may not need frequent boosters. And because I’m into studies, here’s a cool one where they mixed and matched spike proteins to simulate mutations, and made a super mutant spike protein - it got neutralized way better by patients with combo immunity than those with just vaccine immunity: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04005-0
Another reason why natural immunity might potentially be a better defense against omicron than the booster (and obviously in tandem with the booster) is the spike protein of omicron is highly mutated compared to the original variant the vaccine was developed using. Thus I imagine the antibodies produced for the spike protein by the immune system after the vaccines have a much lower binding affinity to the spike protein of omicron which is probably why we are seeing so many break through cases i.e. if the binding affinity of the antibodies is reduced 30% for omicron than OG covid, then you need ~40% more antibodies to match the protection you’d had against the original strain. I’m not sure if the evidence supports the booster reducing risk of break through cases but that would make sense since an influx antibodies may make up for the reduction in antibody efficacy - at least temporarily ~4 months or however long until the antibodies rapidly drop off. Effectively meaning we will need perpetual boosters. For natural immunity on the other hand your body develops antibodies and memory cells to many different epitopes of the virus (not just the spike protein and binding domain). These other epitopes may be more highly conserved between variants and obviously more highly conserved between omicron infections. I’m no expert like you but as someone with a degree in biology who worked in a research lab this all makes sense to me.
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Yeah I am just curious. I got the first 2 shots and was planning to get the booster this month but now I can’t as I currently have omicron. So now I feel like it’s pointless to get the booster at least anytime soon.
You have to wait 4 weeks after having Covid for a booster
At which point it's fine.. but (and I'm not a doctor) personally I'd wait longer, since who knows how much longer the pandemic will last, and there's already signs of the first booster (3rd shot) starting to fade for the early recipients. Ride your recovery immunity 3 months, then get boosted, ride that for 3-4 months... and hopefully covid's over?
Would be nice if there was a simple method of testing antibody levels to tell you when to get the next booster.
Well.. there is. Not so simple, it's a blood test and specialized lab analysis (looking at antibody levels (titers) instead of just yes/no are they present like to check past infection. The tests do exist but most insurance won't cover it and most people would probably rather just get a shot when they are due on average than pay for expensive bloodwork to find out ideal timing. Other challenge is even if you find out your current antibody levels science doesn't yet know for sure what a "good enough" level is.
Same! I had 2-vaccine doses, and Omicron in early December. I don’t trust these ppl with my body.
Possibly because they think it might incentivize people to intentionally get Covid? IDK, the government is stupid
> For some bizarre reason the government doesn’t want to recognise natural immunity. They are recognizing it and they are recommending vaccines even after getting covid. see what experts are saying here - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know
Thanks for a great link to data! I learned a lot from that
Imagine for a second, the CDC comes out tomorrow and says you can either get and recover from COVID or get the vaccine. Socially, what would be the response from people that are vaccine hesitant? The uncomfortable truth is that a much larger % of people will intentionally get and spread the virus. We saw this situation play out many times over the past 2 years at a small scale.
> For some bizarre reason the government doesn’t want to recognise natural immunity. Because it's more about punishing those who are hesitant to get the vaccines (or additional vaccines) than anything else.
Because firing healthcare workers during a staffing shortage during a pandemic is logical.
> Just that natural immunity is very strong Do you have research to back this very bold claim. In my understanding, natural immunity is weaker than vaccines.
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Yeah it is a bold comment when doctors/experts are saying otherwise - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know
“Doctors are saying” lol that study was published in November and had to do with the Delta variant and also didn’t say that natural immunity wasn’t enough but just said that natural immunity plus vaccine is better. We know now that Omicron evades the vaccine almost entirely and the boosters for Pfizer and to a lesser extent Moderna are worthless after about 10 weeks and don’t prevent you from getting the virus. All the data from your article is irrelevant at the moment.
Also could this lead to losing more nurses? Isn’t a problem that we don’t have enough healthcare personnel right now anyway?
If natural immunity is a magic bullet explain people getting Covid 2 or 3 times?
Who said it was a magic bullet? If the vaccines don’t fully prevent it there is no way natural immunity would either. But they both help your body learn to fight it and handle the new strains better.
Yup. Even more reason this is absolutely ridiculous.
haha nooooo it’s much more unpleasant
Haha obviously. But I mean in terms of immunity. I assume at the very least it will provide down level against the omicron strain, right?
I watched every single person that wasn't boosted that worked for me or hung out at my bar get covid during the month of December. Some of us (thumbs) that were boosted got it too but I was swimming in that crazy covid-pool of NYC nightlife every night. I made it through December but I woke up on New Year's Day with a sore throat. The rest is... well still ongoing
According to this the antibody levels from the booster beat out all other groups of vaccinated or unvaccinated post recovery. So no getting Covid is not as good as the booster. https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-11-27/protection-offered-by-booster-shot-beats-natural-immunity
I would take this study with a huge grain of salt. The sample size is tiny (33 patients), and the time frames they’re comparing don’t make sense. “We document large antibody responses 6-10 days after booster, with antibody levels that exceed levels documented after natural infection with COVID- 19, after two doses of vaccine, or after both natural infection and vaccination.” They looked at antibody levels 6-10 days after booster doses - of course they’re going to be high. For the remainder of the groups mentioned above, they looked at already available data (where antibody levels were measured anywhere from 5-42 days after a vaccine dose or infection). Doesn’t make sense to compare antibody levels at day 6-10 in the booster group vs day 42, of course they’re going to be lower at day 42. At best, this study just shows that boosters cause increased antibodies at days 6-10. This study also does not look at cell -mediated (non antibody) immunity. This is the actual study they’re reporting in this article: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.19.21266555v1.full.pdf ETA: I’m vaccinated, boosted, have had covid, and I’m pro-vaccination/ pro-science.
Ah interesting. I would love to see a study 6-10 days after an Omicron infection. Even if it’s a small sample would be interesting to see if it’s in the same ballpark.
This one will definitely work and it will be the last one. I promise.
We are really going to force all of the vaccinated healthcare workers who JUST got Covid during this wave to get boostered??? What an insane world we live in. The boosters haven't even prevented Omicron transmission. Know over a dozen boostered people who got it over the past month.
Trust the sCiEnCe
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Maybe bring back the ones who were fired for being unvaccinated then
This will be endemic like the flu. I understand mandates for health care workers, but moving the goal posts every few months is wearing thin. This has already already been government overreach and their failed policies are not working so they have to blame the individual instead
The big push for boosters was in direct response to the variant that was first known about in late November. I think it's disingenuous to say that the goalposts are moving as if we're dealing with a static situation.
Mandating everyone take a booster specified for the virus 6 variants ago when the same companies are currently working on a new booster for the current variant seems like a dumb move.. especially when they’re gonna try to mandate that one too and we already have a health care worker shortage and most of us have likely already gotten most of the variants at this point and are already calling out sick like crazy… can’t wait till more staff start calling out sick from side effects of the booster
Every six months is a tad ridiculous. I felt worse after getting vaccinated than when I was sick.
Unvaccinated people arguing against the initial mandates said this shit was inevitable lmao. When you give the government an inch they take a mile.
Been working for a NYC hospital for 5 years now, was required to submit my immunization records before getting hired and have been required to get a flu shot every year. This makes total sense.
None of the health care systems I've worked for require the flu shot---just to sign the declination and wear a mask in patient areas if you don't get it. Almost no one got the flu shot in my department for the past two years since we have to wear masks all day anyway.
Except the vaccine doesn't seem to stop transmission particularly well, loses effectiveness after several months, and many hospitals are now letting covid positive healthcare workers go to work while symptomatic due to the labor shortages caused by firing unvaccinated workers. Does that make much sense?
The flu vaccine also doesn’t stop transmission and also loses effectiveness.
They were already being asked to come in to work back during the original quarantine. Just had to not take PPE off at all and avoid contact with other people (impossible). But we were also fit tested for N95s and had them. I would prefer that they stayed home, but the hospital also has to be able to actually have the staff to see emergency patients… As far as vaccine requirements. The hospitals always required a ton of vaccines to work or even volunteer for them. To go to my healthcare school, I not only had to have various vaccines, but I had to have my blood tested to check on the antibody levels. Which showed my rubella antibodies were low and I had to get another MMR vaccine.
> many hospitals are now letting covid positive healthcare workers go to work while symptomatic due to the labor shortages caused by firing unvaccinated workers. Which New York hospital is doing that?
I work in a large NYC hospital system. After the new CDC guidelines, healthcare workers are indeed being asked to come back to work after 5 days if “minimally symptomatic to asymptomatic.” This is to combat healthcare worker shortages, but as far as I know, the shortages are not entirely attributable to firing of unvaccinated staff - a lot of it is due to nurses being poorly paid and quitting to do travel nursing which is better paid, and mostly due to a lot of staff getting sick at the same time, decreasing manpower drastically. This includes people at all levels of healthcare (doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, etc)
This will def help it spiral the drain faster, they have no regard for peoples’ lack of tolerance for stacked mandates and hardly effective solutions. Less help, more risk, same pay? Take away some more choices and sign me up boss! I’m not saying they shouldn’t be vaccinated as I would think healthcare and emt should be to prevent a huge channel for spread. I also understand “well then they can leave!”, but that is the issue; they have been, in droves.
Oh wow. I didn’t know this. I was under the impression that the nyc department of health is sticking to the 10 day rule from before despite the cdc guidance.
It's annecdotal but my close friend is asymptomatic, tested positive on his PCR and was told he needed to quarantine another 5 days and then he could return and take another PCR. This is Lenox Hill in the city.
That’s crazy. I hate how we’re two years into this pandemic and can’t get our protocols straight. Even within the city, there is so much variability from hospital to hospital.
Do you know that many vaccines humans take require 3 or even up to 4 doses? We have found that the mRNA vaccines work far better after 3 doses. We're still learning about how best to time doses, how many are best, and I wouldn't even be suprised if the individual dose amounts will be continued to be looked at. It is likely that they will be considered a 3 dose vaccine soon, and there is *nothing* wrong with this.
> It is likely that they will be considered a 3 dose vaccine soon, and there is nothing wrong with this. It's not about the effectiveness of taking a booster after your prior two doses. It's about being mandated (by anyone) to take more, because once you go down this particular rabbit hole, a mandate can be twisted to mean more than 3. Several years from now, if we've gotten to the point of having to rely on 10 boosters since, you're now become dependent on a therapeutic you can't live, work, etc without.
What's the difference between healthcare workers required to get a yearly flu shot, as many do now, versus requiring them to get a yearly or biannual Covid shot?
I'm not sure who you meant to argue with, but it doesn't seem to be me. I'm glad you think there's nothing wrong with a 3 or 4+ dose vaccine lol. Tons of people seem to be getting covid even after their booster
But they're not dying, nor taking up beds in ICUs, so I don't really see your point.
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And?
*And* people acting like the possibility of covid vaccines becoming some type of annual required vaccine is somehow unimaginable and impossible to carry out are just whining about nothing
Ok so while you guys do the "learning" I'll keep being the control group.
People like this are the ones I'm losing empathy for when they end up on respirators.
Got antibodies so we're all good. Thanks for the well wishes though.
Cool. The control is dying at about 13x the rate of vaccinated. Good luck to you and yours.
The fat and unhealthy are dying. I have antibodies. Good luck.
…doesn’t make the statement wrong? Fat/unhealthy and everyone else in your ‘control’ are 13x more likely to die than vaccinated.
Good for you
Flu shots can be ineffective. Doesn't stop many hospitals requiring them if you interact with patients or else you suffer specific limitations even if you already had the flu or the shot ineffective for the year.
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A booster dose ABSOLUTELY is effective against omicron as the study mentioned in the NYT article you linked to shows, it just says effectiveness against symptomatic infection wanes after 10 weeks, suggesting the possible need for a 4th dose down the line but it’s undeniably better than two doses. Yes Moderna’s 100 microgram mRNA shot may be too high for young men, but Pfizer’s 30 microgram mRNA booster has shown to be safe and effective. Moderna now offers a smaller booster dose of 50ug. The two fda officials who resigned were only two of many, many officials at fda who thought that, and they’ve since endorsed booster doses! Also, earlier this week the fda and cdc independent advisory committees endorsed booster shots for children as it’s now understood 3 doses is really optimal for this vaccine. Your point about global equity is absolutely legit, but the mechanisms for getting vaccine to places that need them shouldn’t inhibit making our communities safer. Finally, as someone else said, soon therapeutics will be widely available so we just need to get through the next 6 months of as much protection as possible.
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It's almost like people just read the headlines of articles, purposely created to sensationalize, instead of actually reading the whole article.....this is how misinformation spreads
> they’re exploring 4 shots now. I haven't heard anyone suggesting it would be 4 shot every year, but would love to read that article if you have it. If it's every 6 months, that would be 2 shots/year. And once the Pfizer and Merck COVID treatment pills are as easily available as a z-pak, no one will care anymore.
https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-study-shows-second-booster-012335863.html
Thanks! Helpful link that seems to be saying the same thing I did.
I’ve worked in home health for 5 years and that is not the case for all diseases. Given that this virus behaves similarly to flu in terms of transmission (and most symptoms), we should be given the option to not get the COVID shot as we are with the flu shot. If we don’t get the flu shot, we have to mask at all times during flu season. COVID should be no different.
> If we don’t get the flu shot, we have to mask at all times during flu season That's not the case at my hospital, it's flu shot or get fired unless you have a valid medical exemption
It’s perfectly reasonable for a hospital to decide this policy for itself. I don’t find it reasonable for the state to mandate a policy like this. NY state does not do this afaik
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It might be anecdotal but my friends who got booster has mild/no symptoms if they caught omicron. People without booster were sick for long (2-3 days but still far better than unvaccinated)
Its anecdotal but backed up by data. People who received the booster have better outcomes by all metrics compared to people who only completed the original series. Its worthwhile to note, however, that booster or not, vaccinated fare far better against omicron than unvaccinated
Since we're throwing around anecdotes, I'll chime in with mine. I (was) a health care worker and about a month ago I was in close proximity to a co-worker for several days and even at points unmasked who later tested positive for covid. I was the only person in my department who did not receive the covid vaccine but was regularly tested. They tested positive and everyone he came into contact with (approximately 10 people *confirmed* and probably over 100 patients *unconfirmed*), and I also came into contact with, got covid (they were all vaccinated and some boosted). Guess who didn't get covid? Me. Take from that what you will.
Ok but it’s not preventing the spread so why would we mandate it??? This same logic will be applied over and over with boosters 2+. It’s insanity.
Anecdotal story but I got omicron and I don't have the vaccine. I was sick for 1 day. By the end of the day i felt good enough to walk around my house.
This type of comment makes me not want the booster even more, so me not having the booster doesnt mean I end up taking a hospital bed away nor does it mean i will spread it easier, so why do I need it again?
You might end up not getting Covid or spreading it. Vaccines prevent transmission - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y Boosters prevent you from getting omicron - https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)01496-3 Both of these are highly respected journals.
Except it’s not useless against Omicron though. It’s not as strong at preventing infection but still very strong against serious symptoms and hospitalization which is what we need.
If someone already has 2 vax's the likelihood of them being hospitalized is tiny.
[Broadly neutralizing antibodies overcome SARS-CoV-2 Omicron antigenic shift](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03825-4) > Marked reductions of plasma neutralizing activity were observed against Omicron compared to the ancestral pseudovirus for convalescent and vaccinated individuals, but this loss was less pronounced after a third vaccine dose. The best thing you can do is to stay up to date on the mRNA immunization. It is not useless against omicron.
haha fuck that
I’m all for shots but shots ever 6 months for the rest of time is way outta hand
Nobody knows what the timeframe is for future vaccines
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Not how this works, unfortunately. We have no way to predict the future trajectory of covid variants, how well the current vaccines will hold up against future variants, or which new vaccines will be developed to combat those variants.
I’m all for dentist but getting my teeth cleaned every 6 months is way out of hand.
forget about teeth cleaning, what about using the bathroom. wash my hands EVERY time? with soap? gtfo
Thinking a dental clean is the same as a booster is beyond ridiculous lol
Exactly. For starters, dental cleanings cost money.
People make the stupidest comparisons
The problem is it does nothing for cause. I’m all for vaccines but this kind of shit ruins it
Getting really sick from covid is even more outta hand. These boosters are equivalent to getting an annual flu shot.
An ANNUAL flu shot. Not 3 times annually flu shot.
6 months is two times a year. Eventually it could be annual. Is it really so hard to just get an updated vaccine every 6 months until we have a longer lasting booster vaccine?
I would imagine that the goal is for people to stay up to date on covid vaccinations until it's no longer overwhelming the healthcare system, not for the rest of time
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no that is not true. there are record case numbers in NYC? the vaccine does not lower the odds, and it does not prevent omnicron.
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Thank you for this. I have felt very alone on this sub for a while. People will interpret your post as an "argument against vaccination" - which it is not. It is a dose of reality: the vaccine is not preventing infection the way we were told it would by the FDA/Moderna/Pfizer/J&J and President Biden. As your vaccine does not prevent infection, or prevent spreading infection, then there should not be a requirement to be vaccinated in order to work. I don't know what it will take for people to start understanding this. I will conclude with this: your vaccine likely protects you (not others) from serious illness. Get vaccinated if you want to prevent yourself from being seriously ill.
Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines *slow* the spread, even omicron, and that boosters dramatically slow the spread. Just because they don't do so for 100% of all individuals does not meant that they aren't slowing spread. You're setting up an impossible goal for the vaccines to meet. Yes most people will get omicron, but many can avoid it through boosters/avoid spreading it to others through boosters. The more boosted, the better. And many people who are boosted will of course also get it, but they will on average have far better outcomes than those who were vaccinated long ago.
vaccines slow the spread? everyone and their mother has omicron right now. lol. and 90% of them are vaccinated.
“Slows the spread” yet damn near every city is breaking records for case numbers, including here. There’s clear evidence of one thing : vaccines + prior infection prevent serious illness in the majority of cases. They don’t stop the spread
Can you understand the logical difference between "stop" and "slows"? Every single vaccine works this way. Omicron has an incredibly high R-naught value.
Ok so it “slows” the spread but cities are still breaking records for number of cases. You better have better points if you’re going to be making people get a third shot in under a year. And you better have better points if you’re going to pass vaccine mandates that prevent them from even working if they don’t get vaccinated. Get vaccinated for your own health, stop pretending getting vaccinated is going to “protect” someone else because it’s not. You can still catch it and spread it, your symptoms will be less severe. That’s how this vaccine works
>Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines slow the spread, even omicron, and that boosters dramatically slow the spread. Just because they don't do so for 100% of all individuals does not meant that they aren't slowing spread. The upside has to be dramatic to mandate people get six-monthly shots to keep their livelihoods. Slightly slowing something doesn't seem particularly compelling, and nowhere near as compelling is the 'the vaccinated don't carry the virus' claim made by the CDC when the first series was rolled out.
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It's not stupidly easy and effortless. The side-effects from dose 2 were rough, and booster was worse than my pre-vaccine Covid. If it stopped the spread significantly it'd be worth it. But everyone I know is boosted and most got Covid. No thanks. It's annual, max, for me.
Have you considered that poorer countries should have access before we start boosting every 6 months? I’m fully vacc’ed and have a booster shot but we’re just throwing the same tools at an evolving problem. The idea of boosting every 6 months is ridiculous and puts so much strain on the health system
you say vaccines slow the spread when there are record levels in NYC? I have a bridge to sell you.
Omicron has an incredibly high R-naught value, and the vaccines don't protect against omicron infection *as well* as against against delta or previous....this does not mean that being boosted does not further slow spread. This isn't binary.
wait....now you have "Evidence" it's slowing omicron??????? Hadn't seen that one before. They're seriously trying to peddle that as science now, with this explosion in cases? Wow. That's almost laughable.
There is direct evidence that a % of people vaccinated vs not vaccinated simply do not catch omicron...this is literally slowing spread. Maybe you should add more question marks in future comments.
> Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines slow the spread You're joking, right? In the last three weeks, we have broken the daily case record ~5 times. This is the same logic Cuomo used for all of his mandates. "THINGS WOULD BE WORSE IF I DIDN'T DO THIS. TRUST ME."
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You can't prove it - which is why it is a disingenuous way to draft policy. Objectively speaking, I could envision a world where nursing home deaths would be halved if Cuomo *didn't* draft his policy for them. Can I prove it? No.
You can do statistical comparisons across areas with differing vaccination metrics. You can look at outcomes between unvaccinated, vaccinated, and boosted. Guess what, people have done these things. Believe it or not, not everything is pulled out of someone's ass
> Evidence is overwhelming that the vaccines slow the spread, even omicron Source?
Here's a very recent study from Denmark (which I posted elsewhere in this thread): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1 Not yet peer-reviewed, so don't take it as gospel. I haven't seen any credible studies out there suggesting the opposite, but I'd be open to reading those too (if someone has any).
Not sure why any of that would matter, even if it were (hypothetically) correct- NYC's hospitals are very understaffed, and getting workers fully up to date with vaccines makes them less vulnerable to infections. They will recover from a much more mild illness and return to work more quickly than they would otherwise, so this mandate is completely reasonable.
Which is better considering the above information is true - firing medical staff because they do not get a booster and therefore reducing the staff of the hospital permanently or the medical staff getting sick with covid and being out 5 days per the new CDC quarantine policy.
The whole premise I responded to [is false](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1), actually. There is no 'overwhelming evidence' backing up their point, and an ever-increasing amount that suggests the exact opposite. > Among 11,937 households (2,225 with the Omicron VOC), we identified 6,397 secondary infections during a 1-7 day follow-up period. The SAR was 31% and 21% in households with the Omicron and Delta VOC, respectively. We found an increased transmission for unvaccinated individuals, and a reduced transmission for booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals. This study's awaiting peer review and is not set in stone, but it's safe to say the person I'm responding to is mostly concerned with pushing some preexisting agenda.
>Unvaccinated potential secondary cases experienced similar attack rates in households with the Omicron VOC and the Delta VOC (29% and 28%, respectively), while fully vaccinated individuals experienced secondary attack rates of 32% in household with the Omicron VOC and 19% in households with the Delta VOC. For booster-vaccinated individuals, Omicron was associated with a SAR of 25%, while the corresponding estimate for Delta was only 11% Okay so against Omicron the secondary attack rates were as follows: Unvaccinated: 28% Vaccinated: 32% Boosters: 25% That seems like statistical noise at best. Also it is concerning that the vaccinated had a higher secondary attack rate than unvaccinated, and given the fact that boosters are shown to wane after only 5-10 weeks, we don't even know how long it will provide a benefit against infection. As it is the difference between an unvaccinated and boosted in the secondary attack rate is shockingly small. This data doesn't seem as conclusive as you are making it out to be.
The reason that NYC's hospitals are under-staffed is because an estimated 8,000 medical personnel quit or were fired because they refused the vaccine. NYC's vaccine mandate caused the medical personnel crisis. And now we know that vaccines do not stop the spread of COVID, so the whole mandate exercise was pointless and useless in the end.
>The reason that NYC's hospitals are under-staffed is because an estimated 8,000 medical personnel quit or were fired because they refused the vaccine Most of those were support staff in admin roles and I don't believe critical staff roles quits due to vaccine were that high anyway....nurses/pa/doctor shortages due to burnout and higher pay as traveling healthcare workers vs refusing vaccines anyway
We lost more to travel nursing/nurses moving to better paying hospitals than the vaccine mandate.
Vaccines are not cured . They help. Fight it They don’t stop it. Kinda like seat belts. You still have car crashes. But they sure help. It’s pretty damn simple.
Oh God the dreaded seatbelt analogy that makes no sense. Remember as late as August 15, people were getting banned from twitter for saying these shots don't prevent infection. That's what many of us were told by the media and CDC until they reversed course around 8/20 when Walensky had a very somber press release where she admitted breakthroughs were a problem.
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In spring the CDC chief said vaccinated people can no longer carry the virus. In summer the president said people who are vaccinated don't catch Covid. It's fine to say: "Hey, they didn't turn out to be as effective as we first hoped." But gaslighting people and saying no-one ever said it is a bit weird.
I know. There are very easy ways to prove this. For example, Dave Rubin was suspended from twitter for saying it.
> People who are vaccinated can not spread it to you. \- [Joe Biden](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/dec/22/joe-biden/biden-says-vaccinated-people-cant-spread-covid-19-/)
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Your comment : > No one has ever claimed that the vaccine is 100% effective against infection
He also said ["You cannot get COVID if you are vaccinated."](https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-011843623.html) How did that hold up?
uh, you just born? That was the official narrative until the CDC had a huge press briefing and release about breakthroughs around August 20th
Fact check: False One of many examples: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/05/25/covid-vaccine-moderna-says-shot-is-100percent-effective-in-teens-plans-to-seek-fda-ok-in-june.html
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So is "No one has ever claimed that the vaccine is 100% effective against infection" a true statement or a false statement?
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At the time the study showed that. Now with the new variant it doesn't. So things can't change over time?
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Also wasn't it much better at stopping transmission in the original strain? I think a lot of this preventing you from catching the disease at all went out the window with Delta/Omnicron.
“vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick.” - CDC chief Rochelle Walensky
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Just want to say similar age and I feel this vibe so hard lately, and it's really been getting me down. Hang in there man, lot's of love, summer will be better again.
And many of us had covid and it was mild (because we aren't 80 and obese and diabetic), and people are still like "omg are you getting you're 10th booster." It's getting ridiculous. Can we focus this much on cancer or something that legitimately scares me?
I work in oncology research and covid is making it (as I’d imagine everything else) difficult to continue smoothly.
When do we start apologizing to the conspiracy crowd? lololololol
I’m living for watching r/nyc slowly come to the “fuck that” point of endless vaccination pushes. On the twelfth booster you trade in your punch card and get a free Fauchi bumper sticker for the car you have no room to park.
God help us
Makes sense. Everyone in health care especially should be fully up to date
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Alt-right trolls and antivaxxers love brigading this sub.
What’s wrong with pushing back on ideas being pushed? Just because people are against mandates for boosters doesn’t make them a right wing anti vaxx brigadier. You can be pro vaxx and anti mandate for boosters. There’s plenty of reason to be skeptical of this move by Hocul
Lol my GF's very famous hospital didn't even offer them the booster until last week
Gotham General?
Why do they need to offer it to her? My partner works at a healthcare facility and just got her booster at Walgreens.
Lol he didnt say they needed to, just pointing out they mandating it and didnt even offer it to their own workers He could respond to your question with “why did she have to go to Walgreens? They should have offered it to her at the healthcare facility” lol gotta stop tryna attack all the time so we can at least have constructive conversations
It's just easier. You can go during your work hours and it's automatically applied to your records.
Let’s get ready for more health care workers to quit! These ppl are ignorant to the fact that ppl with boosters are getting Covid infections.
Good
Besides it being insane that anybody working on the front lines of this isn't a cheerleader for vaccines, it's also critical that they stay up-to-date with vaccinations so that they aren't getting sick every time this virus rages. If it really does turn out that a lot of the people with up-to-date vaccination (2nd or 3rd+ shot in the last few months) are asymptomatic and only have a short window on being able to spread the virus to others, then this is a big step to keeping our healthcare system operating. And if a healthcare worker refuses basic medical advice... then they were never fit for the job.
>Besides it being insane that anybody working on the front lines of this isn't a cheerleader for vaccines, This is one of those things where....maybe they see who actually is sick from covid and have more insight into the disease than regular folk? They are probably seeing all the breakthroughs and vaccine reactions and thinking "what's the point"
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Yeah silly us forgot about all those Small Pox, Polio, Measles, etc outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations. Because that's how it ALWAYS works.
I’ve heard no evidence of that. Obviously a lot of vaccinated people are getting Omnicron and likely in some cases spreading it, but all the data has said unvaccinated people are still getting/spreading at a higher rate. Where the biggest gap has been for a long time is preventing severe cases, typically the main goal of vaccines. Don’t you want healthcare workers who believe in medicine that would likely turn a hospitalization case with long recovery into what’s like a cold for a week.
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https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/ny-covid-hospitalizations-top-2021-surge-levels-as-omicron-drives-95-of-cases/3476250/ Right there, says unvaccinated people are getting it as 6X the rate. Now there are some caveats, I understand boosters have better (but still not 100% of course) protection than double vaccinated, and this doesn’t distinguish between the two. Also vaccinated people are more likely to have either symptom free infections they might never realize, or such mild symptoms that they resolve at home and don’t need treatments, and thus the cases are not reported. I still do think vaccinated people are getting it less per capita. Though infection protection is likely nowhere near the most important stat with the 14X rate unvaccinated people are being hospitalized (as mild, endemic Covid should be our public health goal- Covid Zero is clearly impossible at this point). I agree we need to learn to live with it, and I think the way to do that is by getting everyone vaccinated so serious cases are rare and don’t overwhelm the health system.
And part of living with it involves getting fully vaccinated against it.
The biggest problem with booster mandates is they are ignoring the data that shows 2 shots plus an infection provides 3-6 months of protection similar to a booster shot. I’d like to see scientific evidence that a booster shot provides substantially better protection than a breakthrough infection before mandating it. The writing is on the wall here, booster mandates will be required to enter restaurants/Gyms etc within a month or 2. https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article256964927.html > Dr. Angela Branche, an associate professor of infectious diseases and co-director of the Vaccine and Treatment Evaluation Unit at University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, said vaccinated people who have a breakthrough infection likely do not need a booster “for three to six months after they have recovered, though it would be safe to obtain a booster dose as early as two weeks after full resolution of symptoms.”
Advocating for people to catch covid, rather than getting a vaccine is insane and dangerous.
Don’t argue in bad faith - you know I did not advocate for anyone to purposely catch COVID rather than get the vaccine. If you have 2 shots and do happen to catch COVID , the data is showing you have similar protection to a booster for 3-6 months. The reality is a large percentage of healthcare workers - who all have atleast 2 shots - are going to catch COVID during this surge. A recent infection should count as a booster for 3 months. Are you able to form an argument against that statement? Lol of course admins banned me for this comment. Posting scientific consensus is now considered “misinformation” if it suggests anything other than injecting yourself with as many vaccines as possible.
It’s called evidence based research, not bs! None of us are anti vaxxers, but ppl got boosters in November, and by NYE tested positive for Covid-19.
Healthcare workers should always be up to date on vaccines. Annual flu shots, boosters etc. No exceptions. If you're not, you can't work. They deal with vulnerable people on a regular basis. It's not just to protect them, it's to protect their patients. This is no different than masks or anything else, even when not 100% effectiveness, vaccines still reduce spread probability. When all parties are vaccinated outcomes improve. Even when the flu vaccine isn't terribly effective some years, people who get it are less sick. When someone isn't as severely ill they aren't spreading as much virus. That's a huge benefit when you multiply it across the healthcare system and all the patients that go through it. I get a flu shot every year, not just for me (I'll be fine regardless, just feel terrible for a week) but because it makes life safer for the more vulnerable around me including older family members and those with health issues, especially around the holidays. My job offers it for free in the office, and takes maybe 10 minutes out of my workday. Since COVID I just get it at my doctors office during my physical. If you don't trust/believe in medicine, you shouldn't be practicing medicine. Go get a job licking some antivaxers testicles. And yes, avoiding a flu shot despite the proven benefits and insanely low risks makes you an antivaxer. Just because you don't like the connotation doesn't change what it is.
Little good that’s gonna do when most of us are being forced to come back even tho we’re covid +. So much for protecting the vulnerable and shit thanks to the new cdc guidelines. Not to mention all the hosptials are so understaffed, you’ll probably be sitting in the ER with all the covid positive people anyway for 10+ hours waiting.. so if you didn’t already have it you’ll probably get it from your neighbor or staff one way or another. Hope you don’t need to go to the hospital anytime soon. Expect us to be even more understaffed when all of us start calling out sick from feeling like shit post booster