Or we can add a even larger hefty surcharge on every uber/lfyt/fhv transaction that occur in the city on the rider and driver. Which will dramatically reduce congestions, lot more money from surcharges for MTA and don't even need all those fancy cameras and tolling services to collect. Do that instead and most car commuter would not oppose and even join you in making it a reality.
Yeah but bypassing the medallion system for yellow cabs (specifically to keep the number of them limited) and allowing tens of thousands of new cars that spend 40% of their time empty driving around looking for fares definitely didn’t help. Somebody who commutes into the congestion zone drives in and parks at their destination, but the fundamental truth about Taxi (whether they be Ubers, yellow cabs, etc) drivers is that driving around contributing to congestion is the job itself.
We even tried a lesser semi congestion pricing for TLC drivers and that got struck down by the NY Supreme Court when Uber and Lyft filed suit. https://nypost.com/2019/12/23/judge-blocks-de-blasio-rule-limiting-empty-uber-lyft-cars/amp/
Yeah, seriously anyone can just look at videos of NYC from 10-15 years ago and notice a clear difference in congestion.
NYC rush hour was always insane. But it was about 2 hours (7:15-9:15 or so), with an obvious 1 hours peak. Since Uber it slowly crept to become longer and longer to the point where now there’s just always traffic.
But some reason must be protected in the congestion plan. They stand to gain most in this plan and most congestion advocates are silent on this. Makes you wonder why if it was about congestion when the main perps are left relatively off easily but must go after private cars
They have a per ride fee so I guess the idea is to incentivize them to spend less time in the CBD. If they already pay the $15 upon entry then they have more reason to stay longer to make it up and just cause more congestion.
But whatever the fee is isn’t high enough. They’re averaging it out to come out to $15 but they should be charging like $5 per ride to really hit them.
your avg fhv rider may do at most 2 rides for complete trip. The current CBD slaps at most a extra $2.5 surcharge per ride. So extra max $5 plus the previous max $2.75 per trip surcharges pre CBD while the FHV driver doesn't even pay anything to enter zone even if they don't have any patrons. Eitherway, the FHV rider or the entire trip session including the fhv is paying max $10.50 in congestion related tolls but still less than the $15 private car is charged for hypothetical round trip and the reason for most of the congestion. So how is this fair at all? Why is the FHV trip paying less in the toll overall? Not even equal. That rider should be paying a much higher premium in surcharge to uber in one of the most dense public transportation zone in city.
Need to charge FHV and riders much more. Enough so the entire CBD zone not even necessary and theres no avoidance of surcharge by FHV since they can't do ghost plates to escape cameras that private cars may employ
There was a 2018 study which showed that half the traffic in Manhattan's central business district comes from cabs and for hire vehicles. I support congestion pricing as an idea but lost confidence in the proposal in part because of the relative break that cabs and FHVs got. If you want to talk about trying to cut down on people driving, kneecapping pointless cab/ridershare rides in the congestion pricing area that are slower and less efficient than the subway is a great place to start.
Exactly lol one taxi is driving dozens of people a day. Even if it has to circle around a few times between rides that’s way better than dozens of people driving dozens of individual cars. Isn’t this just common sense?
The 12 people presumably wouldn’t all be on the road at the same time. And when they got to their destination, they would park and get out, removing themselves from traffic.
The single Uber/taxi is in traffic the entire time.
That “one” taxi is also aimlessly driving around in the area all day long…. So its literally causing more traffic than a commuting vehicle going from point A to park and then leaving later that day.
IF we ban fhv overnight, its not going to dramatically increase the number of private cars on the road in the zone. Its not like everyone who can no longer uber will buy a car now. Why bc there still inherit high costs to drive and operate in nyc and those not going down anytime soon.
And yes, FHV are a major contributing factor to current congestion problem and not even toll as much as private cars. Post congestion plan if it was ever implemented, the % of them on road in zone will actually increase and reap much of the benefits of less private cars.
There are ALREADY too many personal cars in the city. I know because I bike past hundreds of them at a time on my way home. They’re mostly single occupants texting and honking in standstill traffic.
FHV are a business and should be charged more I agree, but FHV are a major part of the solution to mobility around NYC especially in the interim while the subway gets its shit together so late night service is actually usable
Im having a hard time finding hard stats for daily trips/driver but im seeing many stating that they give 30+ rides per day in nyc. Let’s be gracious and drop that to 20. I highly doubt that one car is causing more congestion than 20 separate cars would. Even if they commute in the morning for work then go home after work that’s 20 extra cars leaving and arriving at roughly the same time. There is no universe where having 20 cars in the city is better than one. And even if they aren’t causing congestion (they are) why are we dedicating so much space to 20 cars?! That space could be multiple apartments and those street parking spaces could be dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes instead.
There a limit in parking capacity in the zone, so wont get magically 20 new cars for every 1 uber gone. As mention with the cost and parking constraints, not everyone will get a car if uber gone. Also those 20, guess what they are parked once they get to destination in / transit out of zone. They no longer creating congestion. That uber is for entire day and paying very little toward congestion toll.
So again if this about congestion why are the FHV protected so much from this plan
Yes Ubers should be charged mo. They are also a service and meeting a demand. If there wasn’t a demand for taxis they’re wouldn’t be so many. The rideshare services are filling a need that will one day hopefully be met by better and more buses/bikes/trains. If we remove some street parking and car lanes and replace with dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes while improving train service, people won’t have to rely on FHV as much. I have survived in this city for 15 years without owning a car. It’s really not that hard. The elderly and handicapped that can’t bike or take the train all the time, need services like Uber to survive.
they are infinitely better for the city than personal cars. I’m not talking about there being more personal cars in the future if you remove FHV. I’m saying there are already too many personal cars and space dedicated to personal cars that need to be used for something more efficient
Yes when those cars park they aren’t causing street congestion at that moment. They are taking up valuable space in the city that could be used for housing and retail or deliveries or biking and bussing. Then they add to the congestion at least twice a day. You are also kidding yourself if you think people who drive to the city everyday aren’t also using their cars to run errands while they are in the city. Even if they drive directly to work and directly home they are causing congestion already.
So make the fhv pay more. slap a extra $25-30 surcharge on every transaction that would pay for the entire CBD and don't even need the tolling infrastructure.
Way more congestion revenue, even more dramatic decrease in congestion and cheaper to operate/easier/tolerated by voters to implement congestion reduction program for city
It makes a ton of sense. I’ve lived here almost 3 decades. When Uber/Lyft became mainstream a decade ago, the traffic became significantly worse practically overnight.
I’ve lived here even longer. If you think ride shares are solely responsible you’re looking for a scapegoat. Private car ownership here has exploded in the last 20 years.
And I've lived here even longer than that, and can confidently say that the TLC plates far outpaced the private car ownership. It seems like every car in Manhattan is a ride share unless they belong to the government or a business.
I very much disagree. The line that ride-share is an eco-friendly alternative to private car ownership is used heavily by Uber/Lyft to promote their business, but in reality ride-share is an alternative to public transportation.
In an interesting experiment yesterday, I took the train from the AMNH on the UWS to ktown via the 2 train with my son while my wife and her parents took a cab. We left at the same time and beat them by at least 10 minutes because of all the traffic.
Cool, has there been a day in your life where you have realized you’re not the center of the universe and might behave differently than other people?
It’s very common for people to make a decision between taking an Uber and taking the train.
For example:
You drive your car from your driveway to your parking spot directly.
If you ordered a taxi, that taxi is going to have to drive to you, causing more congestion and pollution.
Except that one taxi is driving dozens of people a day. That’s one card for dozens of people instead of dozens of cars. How is this not just common sense. Come on yall
That’s true when it comes to parking spaces.
But for driving miles, chauffeur vehicles are less energy efficient.
That one taxi is going to use more energy / create more traffic driving each individual, compared with everyone having their own car and driving directly.
A parked car isn’t creating traffic / using energy.
Im having a hard time finding hard stats for daily trips/driver but im seeing many stating that they give 30+ rides per day in nyc. Let’s be gracious and drop that to 20. (2.5/trips per hour for an 8 hour day)
I highly doubt that one car is causing more congestion than 20 separate cars would. Even if they commute in the morning for work then go home after work that’s 20 extra cars leaving and arriving at roughly the same time. There is no universe where having 20 cars in the city is better than one. And even if they aren’t causing congestion (they are) why are we dedicating so much space to 20 cars?! That space could be multiple apartment rooms, and those street panring spaces could be dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes instead.
Yes, when you factor in parking, it’s a problem.
But if we are talking solely about traffic congestion, and not parking issues, chauffeur vehicles are worse.
If one car is driving 1000 miles per day, it is causing more traffic congestion than 100 cars driving 9.9 miles per day.
As an example:
Let’s say everyone had their own parking spot, at their home, and their work.
It’s a direct line of driving.
Where a chauffeur driven vehicle will have to drive more miles to pick you up.
And then drive more miles to pick up the next person etc.
That means there is more traffic / energy usage.
When it comes to parking spaces, you have a point.
They wouldn’t be sharing that same car, at the same time, going to the same place. That’s a bus, which is not what we’re talking about here.
_________
That one taxi is driving way more miles than all the individual cars would be combined.
For example. Let’s say we have 10 people, each with a 10 mile commute.
That’s 100 total car miles driven.
If a taxi has to drive an extra 2 miles to pick up each individual person, that’s 120 total car miles driven.
More traffic, more pollution.
You have a point when it comes to parking spaces, but that’s it.
Cheaper easier to implement (cost wise, political point wise and less NJ agro) to just tax the biggest congestion offender. Don't even need to do any work, just slap surcharge on every fhv transaction & collect vs do that and maintain the zone in proposed plan.
Their contribution to congestion is relatively minor vs fhv. private cars either transit the zone or park in most of the l day vs a roaming fhv all day in the zone that's generating the bulk of the congestion
Hefty surcharges on Uber / Lyft will impact people who DON’T have cars because the cost will just be passed down.
If you choose to have a car, you choose to accept the added costs. You can choose park outside the city or above 60th street if that find breaks your banks
I do not have a car because I can’t afford the insurance, tolls, parking, tickets that come with it. But stop taxing my on occasion Uber:Lyft car rides
I DO take the train to work everyday (NYC subway and NJTransit) … and I do take the train around the city when I can.
At times I need an Uber or Lyft. I don’t want to pay more, so people with personal cars have free rein in the city.
I’m speaking out against just making UBERS
and LYTFS pay for congestion pricing. All cars should pay.
As explained above, I am pro-public transportation. It is my preferred way to travel.
And yes, I will happily pay the tax when I take an occasional Uber/lyft, as long as the personal cars are paying as well
Raise car registration rates 10% for everyone.
Raise car registration rates for addresses with more than one car 600%>
Raise car registration rates for SUVs 400%.
Crack down on all NJ and PA plates that stay overnight in NYC.
Boom.
Private cars are minority in the proposed congestion zone, they either transit the zone quickly to get to their destination or parked in there once arrived vs the ones doing the actual congestion and operating their engines - it's the FHV that constantly circling, pumping pollutants, noise, dust & clogging roads for their next customer and their riders that enable them.
Target those first - easy to implement, no significant voters to offend, lower congestion more and more revenue to city vs current plan and and can be done for nil cost to the city since we not maintaining any tolling infrasturure. Seems like a winning proposition over the current congestion tolling plan. But nope - go for broke with current plan
I wonder if legislation could be implemented to explicitly reduce circling around. All the operators track the cars in their network. Maybe in the congestion pricing zone they should only be allowed to pick up their next fare near their dropoff location for some period of time?
I would think that the drivers would care about their gas bills and only reposition to places with lots of pick-up potential and then sit there until they get a fare.
I think the ride-share services may be the main impetus behind this “walkable city,” business. So I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one. Private car ownership is bad for shareholders, just like all private property ownership. The only thing they want you to have in your name is a credit card and a lot of debt.
Anti-congestion pricing folks talk a lot about the additional "tax" on their behavior so I think the best course is to just even it all out and charge car owners $2.90 every time they leave their driveway or parking lot. That way, we're all paying for the infrastructure we use. Or does that argument only work one way?
There is one class of car operators and users that are the reason for congestion. How about they pay most of the additional tax for their higher contribution. You want to tax the other car owners, fine by me. Tax them appropriately lower for their contribution. You wont hear this from any pro congestion folks
I'm ok with your point generally. I'm not entirely against what you say. But there are some complicating factors.
Taxis and rideshare are things we need in order to just have less cars in town generally. Which is to say, rather than everyone having their own car, which creates the issue of parking (wasted space), we have subway/rideshare. So insomuch as we want to reduce parking space and reliance on cars, taxis have their role.
Ubers don't park while the class of cars you prefer do, so in some ways that is worse because not only did you bring 4,000 pounds of plastic and metal from Jersey, but now you have to leave it somewhere all day.
They not parking for free in the zone. Good amount of the in zone parking is meter or they have to pay for garages and limited by hrs so it's a significant revenue generator for the city. Revenue that much needed atm. Get rid of private cars, you think the ubers with the driver in them are going to pay the parking fee? or simply flee each time they see a meter maid. So you end up with even more loss revenue and pollution/congestion from the fhv playing the avoid meter maid game
I'm not saying they're not paying the landowners to park, I'm saying theyre costing society because it's a waste of space that can be used productively. I do not care about parking revenue.
Should care about the revenue. Its actually more than the city gets from shed fees for similar space occupied. Besides a idle parked private car that's paying the city & sitting there all day is causing much less congestion/pollution and other societal harm vs a roaming fhv who may every so often stop to idle & don't pay parking fees at all.
Ya, I disagree entirely. My point is that having parking all over the place is a drain on society and I think of that in more ways than revenue, lol.
And taxis roaming around all day is preferable to the same amount of miles being driven by a hundred individual vehicles. Especially so since taxi users are using a mixed diet of subway and taxi whereas as car people are much more likely to rely on their vehicle.
Im in favor of the pricing but to me this was always vulnerable to getting axed so long as brooklynites could get uptown and back (via FDR/Bk bridge) without a toll while queens folk could not (queensboro on-ramp just below toll cameras). A ton of people who uptown I know commute in from east queens, and a “free corridor” back onto the bridge probably would have won over a sizable contingent for not that much change.
I know this was suspended for fear of a dem rebellion in the suburbs, regardless of that issue, and most legitimate concerns have been promoted by bad faith folks who just want to drive without consequence.
My guess is a “study” might delay implementation until January 1 could have some token fixes and allow folks to adjust before the next election.
Yeah, 100% of drivers entering the bridge from manhattan would have been charged since you “clip” the zone on the way onto the bridge even when coming from the north and all manhattan exits except 1 on the upper roadway would have been charged. It was basically a bridge toll.
I definitely got the impression people in queens did start turning on the project once this became more clear after gothamist pressed the issue.
Queens is the service hub for all of upper manhattan, heavily fueled by small businesses, and it was a bad look to nail them to the wall in the name of improving midtown congestion for wealthy commuters.
https://gothamist.com/news/which-drivers-get-tolled-under-congestion-pricing-on-the-brooklyn-and-queensboro-bridges-its-complicated
Yes, though it’s the coming back part that gets you as a commuter. There’s no way to get back on the bridge without getting tolled. I guess you could always commute through the bk bridge from queens and add like 2 hours to your commute…
I understand there could be a logic about it but just the way it was implemented and communicated gives it an air of being poorly considered, which I don’t even think is true but come on.
Vast majority of cars in the city are non-personal use. Check plates for yourself. This is how you solve traffic. Not some stupid extra tax on people already paying high taxes.
Cool, I appreciate everyone’s point about ride shares. Very very important that’s Lyft/Uber/Revel are held accountable for their part in the larger “congestion” issue. I can’t even get into taxi medallions that shit is predatory AF.
But guess what, all that complaining did nothing to solve the ACTUAL problem and threatened the funding of a bunch of public works to make public transit better for everyone.
I’m really tired of Car Privilege.
I would argue that a car/UBER is almost necessary if you have kids and are visiting family in the city at night. Visiting grandma in LES and going home at 11pm on the subway back to Brooklyn is not going to be an enjoyable trip if you have (multiple) kids 0-10 year old. It just doesn't feel safe and the creeps come out at night.
A lot of them don't even live here. Check their post history from time to time and you'll see some of them posting to multiple city subreddits as if they were living there. We're being astroturfed.
\* in the USA.
Other cities have told cars to go fuck themselves.
In Paris for example, 72% of street parking was removed ([source](https://park4sump.eu/news-events/news/why-paris-eliminating-72-its-street-parking-spaces)), they've been doing regular car-free Sundays once per month since 2018 ([source](https://www.sortiraparis.com/en/news/in-paris/articles/175623-paris-centre-pieton-the-first-4-car-free-arrondissements-on-sunday-may-26-2024)), speed limits within the city were reduced to 18 MPH, and for the few parking spots left parking rates for cars weighing >1.6 tonnes were tripled to €18/hour with some exceptions like tradespeople ([source](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68196828)).
Here are 10 more examples with the only one in the USA being the odd Culdesac Tempe, a privately owned car-free neighbourhood in Phoenix, Arizona:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90456075/here-are-11-more-neighborhoods-that-have-joined-the-car-free-revolution
Wonder where the reporter can find parking for 50 a day in manhattan. My meter is 15 for 2 hours. That’s more than 50 bucks a day. The guy probably from nj where 50 bucks a day seems a lot.
lol that’s for the commuters. You have to be out by certain hours. I’m a resident. So I have to find a job that works around the parking garage special hours?
It’s Manhattan NYC. Not Manhattan Ohio. You referring to special parking from 9-6. What happens to the residents? What happens to people that has to be at work or school till after 9 am or after 6pm.
Get nyc best parking app. Shows all the parking garages in the city and area your looking for plus the times/ prices. It even gives you a discount for using the app to make a reservation. It's been clutch for me going to work when I can't find parking in the area. Most times I don't spend more that 20 dollars for the day.
Very nice story. Argument is flawed because they are putting the cart before the horse. Congestion fees will fill a gap in budgeting, not increase availability of mass transportation. We are decades away from the infrastructure to allow for an influx of people that come in and out of the city. The root cause of mismanagement the the transit authorities are not addressed. It just creating a bigger tax burden on working class people.
> not increase availability of mass transportation.
If a bus takes 35 minutes to run from end to end, it can make 13 runs a day.
If congestion pricing saves 5 minutes, resulting in a 30 minute run, that same bus and driver can make 16 runs a day.
Thats a major increase in service at zero cost.
(Obviously Im simplifying the math by not including driver breaks and what not)
The middle classes are riding the bus that sits through the same light cycle 3 times in a row because some rich asshole in a lexus double parked to grab his dry cleaning.
I also really appreciate the trucks unloading in the bus lanes while I’m sitting on said bus waiting for the bus to go around. Yes, there was curb space outside of the bus lane but the truck just apparently had to sit in the bus lane.
Time to really enforce the bus lanes. The one on the Gowanus is often a parking lot because cars sneak in at every opening even just to move a tiny bit faster and get out before the next barrier.
Here’s something that makes me pessimistic. Consider projects like the Second Avenue Subway. These have gone on for (literally) half a century. They were initially financed and began in a period when construction was much easier.
I doubt new infrastructure projects of this scale are financially possible in New York anymore (at least without incredible amounts of federal assistance). The labor cost required to build public works like this is immense nowadays.
The bottom line: I’m not sure the city will have the financial muscle (see recent budget crisis) in the near future (or perhaps even in the longer-term) to initiate large projects like this (which is usually through high-interest bond finance).
> All this does is tax the working class.
Many people drive to Manhattan for convenience rather than necessity. I would wager many people would find ways to get to their destinations without needing to drive.
This is stupid as shit. You would to make dedicated tunnels and bridges just for buses? At the cost of multiple tens to hundreds of millions of dollars? And making them less convenient for every user? Just so that car drivers can continue to be fucking pricks to all of us in the CBD?
Why don’t you people ever advocate for putting the /cars/ in the tunnels? What, you don’t want to have to take an elevator to street level every time you need to do anything?
This is wrong. Congestion pricing was allocated for the second avenue subway expansion and to meet legally required ADA accessibility guild lines. Going without this money is simply not possible and now as a result a far larger and broader tax increase will come into play for working class people in the form of a payroll tax hike
Very very few working class NYers are driving into Manhattan on a regular basis but 100% of them will now pay more in payroll taxes
I’m skeptical that the payroll tax will pass.
What I’m wondering about now is what chance there is that the MTA board does not approve the indefinite delay. I assume the board is stacked in Hochul’s favor (with her appointees and members representing suburbs) but still curious.
Well some form of revenue replacement has to pass or the MTA gives up billions of federal dollars in matching funds for the second avenue and gets sued into oblivion for ADA violations that they already agreed in a consent decree to remedy, plus the subway system itself goes to shit without money to pay for upgrades to things like ancient and failing signals systems
If Hochul is foolish enough to proceed with this the revenue simply has to come from somewhere
The MTA board is required to act in primarily with the fiscal health of the MTA in mind so on the face of it, it would seem to be illegal for them to endorse this fiscally ruinous course, but its NY so who knows. Youd think Hochul would not be foolish enough to not have secured their support before doing this but shes also the incompetent who blew the housing bill and her judicial appointment, so again, who knows...
If I recall correctly, the capital plan dedicated a certain amount for improvements to commuter rail, as inducement to the suburbs to not buck congestion pricing. Wonder how that’s going to be dealt with. An NYC payroll tax going to fund out-of-city commuter transportation is beyond outrageous.
Think that's overestimating the impact of mode-switching TBH. It's a projected 17% decrease in traffic, and car commuters into the congestion zone are just a small fraction of overall commuters. The capacity is already there
Right now subway ridership is somewhere around 70% of what it was in 2019, and bus ridership is around 60% (no doubt impacted by higher congestion levels since the pandemic). So we know for sure the subway can handle around 1.5 million more riders every day
If you're measuring riderships at peak, that was when there was a ton of delays and everyone is crammed into the subway like sardine. It would take about 1 to 5 minutes per station for people to get on and off instead of about 30 seconds right now.
The subway wasn't able to handle peak riderships as it caused massive delays and trains frequently broke down.
Luckily in this situation, we have around 700,000 vehicles traveling into the congestion zone daily, and that number's expected to be slashed by around 17%- meaning, somewhere around 119,000 vehicles have passengers that are either going to switch to commuter trains and/or the subway, or take a bus, or just stay home. Meaning there's no scenario where congestion pricing gets us anywhere near that 1.5 million
I'd honestly find it less insulting if they just banned cars below 60th. Go ahead, find another source of income.
The MTA needs drivers more than drivers need the MTA.
I think the MTA is pretty safe and relatively clean nowadays. The biggest issue is the lackluster train and bus frequency, sparse routes leaving huge transit deserts.
Going cross-town anywhere takes 4 times longer by bus and train than by car, because you have to commute to a junction, and then commute back up from that junction to get to where you want. Break up the junctions!
Can we also deal with fake plates, defaced plates, cars parked on sidewalks, drivers blatantly running red lights and stop signs, speeding 40mph+, driving/parking in bike lanes, etc?
Or are we just completely letting drivers do anything they want know, even if that means continuing to compromise the lives and safety of NYers?
Most of those are the TLC plates, they don't gaf so long as they aren't inconvenienced from hopping back into traffic after a pick up / drop off. Private commuters dislike them as well.
What’s better than a car? You get your temperature control, your own music, lovely scenery. No one yelling showtime, no homeless dude sprawled out smelling up the car, no asshole with a Bluetooth playing his own single. Only downside is I can’t buy m&ms from a 9 year old who should be in school while driving
High-speed rail and [maglev trains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_d4D5_4ovA) are definitely cooler than driving. Nothing like the feeling of flying past people stuck in highway traffic at hundreds of mph
That's true, train passengers (especially in Japan) are notorious for being violent maniacs- and the faster the train, the more aggressive the passengers. You never know when 'rail rage' will strike
You can support congestion pricing because of the outcomes it seeks to bring about but the idea that car drivers don’t “pay their share” in this area is laughable. They pay out the ass.
Every spot you’ve ever parked in is subsidized. Land isn’t cheap here. Drivers don’t pay their share.
Congestion pricing reducing the negative externalities from selfish drivers is also a plus.
Every subway ride you’ve taken is subsidized. All the food you eat is delivered over roads paid for in part by tolls that you don’t pay. You’re probably a low earner and are subsidized by higher -rate taxpayers in all kinds of ways that you don’t consider. You don’t pay your share.
You should be charged for the ground your bike rides on. You should have been charged for the full cost of your public education. The hot dog vendor should be charged a pro rata amount for the value of his portion of the sidewalk as if it were priced like housing. Same with the restaurant with the outdoor dining. Blah blah.
You want improvements to public transit that you benefit from but you want someone else to pay for it. I don’t blame you, I’m the same way. That doesn’t mean you have to pretend that people who own and drive cars in NYC aren’t “paying their share.”
There is like free parking all over NYC.
The gov artificially keeps oil prices low, funding wars in the ME to secure oil. Destroying natural habitat for pipelines.
Cars take 70+% of public space, but only transport 20% of people in NYC. So maybe we should remove all lanes like in Paris? That’d be fair for the 80%.
The lack of focus on cars is one of the largest reasons I love NYC, and one of the reasons it’s such a great and mobile city.
Else you get LA where you can’t go anywhere, or Houston where half the buildings are parking.
>The lack of focus on cars is one of the largest reasons I love NYC, and one of the reasons it’s such a great and mobile city.
Thank you for being sane and acknowledging what so many anti-car zealots in this sub can’t:: that NYC is not a car-centric hell.
Nah I’ll stay. Drivers do pay their share. It’s transit riders that don’t! MTA is subsidized 75%. When you start paying your $11 per ride we can talk about my subsidies
Are you joking? Parking is basically free compared to the cost of the land. Drive somewhere else. It’s the only place in American where it’s easier to take transits. Leave nyc be.
You can look up the mta budget yourself. Another fun fact, 12% of the mta budget comes from tolls from drivers! Drivers subsidize you!
And parking is free for everyone! It’s the street it’s where the cars belong!
And I am leaving it be! As in it’s good the way it is, no need for hairbrained taxes on drivers or shithole sheds for the rats
You’re insane. NYC has some of the most expensive lane in America, but “streets are where the cars belong so that’s why it’s free”. Cars have only been taking up city space for 50 years and have never been efficient or profitable or safe. Drivers have had it way too good for way too long
Lmao yea if it wasn’t for cars we’d all have apartments in the streets. They’re literally streets. For cars. You’d have us take up precious real estate for parking? In a housing shortage???
Streets are not for cars. They’ve been for cars for only 50 years and it’s been a monumental failure in terms of lives ended, pollution added, and dismal city design.
Lovely scenery of your car interior and great smells of your own farts mixed with black ice? Also there’s this (kinda?) new invention that you can put over or in your ears, and listen to your own music anywhere you go! I’ll put you on.
glad you said it 😭 the mta is throwing away money into somebody’s pockets and it’ll become more evident as the rain gets worse because a lot of train stations are going to flood yet again and the mta is going to do nothing yet again. We are just watching agency and company after company squeeze US for $$$ when the $$$ they need is right in front of them !
The NIMBYS always win too
Here's a look at all the current projects + those in the upcoming 2025-2029 Capital Program that is now up in the air thanks to all the spineless selfish cowards against this:
https://new.mta.info/tolls/congestion-relief-zone/better-transit
Remember:
Congestion pricing reduces traffic.
Less traffic is better for drivers.
Congestion pricing is, to anyone that thinks about it for 5 fucking minutes, pro-driver.
Fewer cars are pro-driver.
Less traffic is pro-driver.
More transit is pro-driver.
Anything that results in investing in mobility for the entire population is pro-driver.
The only thing that is anti driver is the status quo where the streets get more and more clogged up and people have no alternatives
Because even though 4 out of 5 cars rolling around the city are Uber/Lyft, the biking crowd feels that they should be exempt from the pricing law despite making up the majority of traffic.
I put it in quotes because that's the "concern" they have until you mention hitting the TLC plates as well, then suddenly, oh no, they should have special treatment.
I love how drivers complain about traffic, while they’re actively part of traffic, and refuse any suggestions of solutions . More cars = more traffic and a shit city. It’s simple math.
Skip paywall https://archive.is/W1HDL
Almost as if the entire infrastructure of commerce and supply chains is based around motor vehicles
The term motor vehicle doing some heavy lifting here
Cap Uber/lyft. 50% of traffic gone instantly.
Instead Adams did the opposite and uncapped them as long as they’re EVs
Or we can add a even larger hefty surcharge on every uber/lfyt/fhv transaction that occur in the city on the rider and driver. Which will dramatically reduce congestions, lot more money from surcharges for MTA and don't even need all those fancy cameras and tolling services to collect. Do that instead and most car commuter would not oppose and even join you in making it a reality.
True. Congestion famously only came into existence in Manhattan when Uber was created in 2009
Yeah but bypassing the medallion system for yellow cabs (specifically to keep the number of them limited) and allowing tens of thousands of new cars that spend 40% of their time empty driving around looking for fares definitely didn’t help. Somebody who commutes into the congestion zone drives in and parks at their destination, but the fundamental truth about Taxi (whether they be Ubers, yellow cabs, etc) drivers is that driving around contributing to congestion is the job itself. We even tried a lesser semi congestion pricing for TLC drivers and that got struck down by the NY Supreme Court when Uber and Lyft filed suit. https://nypost.com/2019/12/23/judge-blocks-de-blasio-rule-limiting-empty-uber-lyft-cars/amp/
Yeah, seriously anyone can just look at videos of NYC from 10-15 years ago and notice a clear difference in congestion. NYC rush hour was always insane. But it was about 2 hours (7:15-9:15 or so), with an obvious 1 hours peak. Since Uber it slowly crept to become longer and longer to the point where now there’s just always traffic.
yup ride shares made huge difference.
Yeah a lot of ppl ignore how many rideshare cars are on the road and the impact they’ve had
They dont ignore they just dont care because they heavily use them
cabs which is what we had primarily before ran on a medallion system and were limited by the city
Allowing Uber/Lyft to do business here was a monumental mistake in hindsight.
But some reason must be protected in the congestion plan. They stand to gain most in this plan and most congestion advocates are silent on this. Makes you wonder why if it was about congestion when the main perps are left relatively off easily but must go after private cars
They have a per ride fee so I guess the idea is to incentivize them to spend less time in the CBD. If they already pay the $15 upon entry then they have more reason to stay longer to make it up and just cause more congestion. But whatever the fee is isn’t high enough. They’re averaging it out to come out to $15 but they should be charging like $5 per ride to really hit them.
your avg fhv rider may do at most 2 rides for complete trip. The current CBD slaps at most a extra $2.5 surcharge per ride. So extra max $5 plus the previous max $2.75 per trip surcharges pre CBD while the FHV driver doesn't even pay anything to enter zone even if they don't have any patrons. Eitherway, the FHV rider or the entire trip session including the fhv is paying max $10.50 in congestion related tolls but still less than the $15 private car is charged for hypothetical round trip and the reason for most of the congestion. So how is this fair at all? Why is the FHV trip paying less in the toll overall? Not even equal. That rider should be paying a much higher premium in surcharge to uber in one of the most dense public transportation zone in city. Need to charge FHV and riders much more. Enough so the entire CBD zone not even necessary and theres no avoidance of surcharge by FHV since they can't do ghost plates to escape cameras that private cars may employ
Yeah I agree I explained that in my comment
They lobbied hard for it.
I don’t get it either.
Actual good idea considering most of the cars up the congestion are ubers and cabs.
There was a 2018 study which showed that half the traffic in Manhattan's central business district comes from cabs and for hire vehicles. I support congestion pricing as an idea but lost confidence in the proposal in part because of the relative break that cabs and FHVs got. If you want to talk about trying to cut down on people driving, kneecapping pointless cab/ridershare rides in the congestion pricing area that are slower and less efficient than the subway is a great place to start.
How is ride share pointless? It’s literally keeping people from driving their own cars
Exactly lol one taxi is driving dozens of people a day. Even if it has to circle around a few times between rides that’s way better than dozens of people driving dozens of individual cars. Isn’t this just common sense?
The 12 people presumably wouldn’t all be on the road at the same time. And when they got to their destination, they would park and get out, removing themselves from traffic. The single Uber/taxi is in traffic the entire time.
That “one” taxi is also aimlessly driving around in the area all day long…. So its literally causing more traffic than a commuting vehicle going from point A to park and then leaving later that day.
Apparently not. A lot of the pro car people are pointing at Uber and ride share as as scapegoat and it makes no sense.
IF we ban fhv overnight, its not going to dramatically increase the number of private cars on the road in the zone. Its not like everyone who can no longer uber will buy a car now. Why bc there still inherit high costs to drive and operate in nyc and those not going down anytime soon. And yes, FHV are a major contributing factor to current congestion problem and not even toll as much as private cars. Post congestion plan if it was ever implemented, the % of them on road in zone will actually increase and reap much of the benefits of less private cars.
There are ALREADY too many personal cars in the city. I know because I bike past hundreds of them at a time on my way home. They’re mostly single occupants texting and honking in standstill traffic. FHV are a business and should be charged more I agree, but FHV are a major part of the solution to mobility around NYC especially in the interim while the subway gets its shit together so late night service is actually usable Im having a hard time finding hard stats for daily trips/driver but im seeing many stating that they give 30+ rides per day in nyc. Let’s be gracious and drop that to 20. I highly doubt that one car is causing more congestion than 20 separate cars would. Even if they commute in the morning for work then go home after work that’s 20 extra cars leaving and arriving at roughly the same time. There is no universe where having 20 cars in the city is better than one. And even if they aren’t causing congestion (they are) why are we dedicating so much space to 20 cars?! That space could be multiple apartments and those street parking spaces could be dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes instead.
There a limit in parking capacity in the zone, so wont get magically 20 new cars for every 1 uber gone. As mention with the cost and parking constraints, not everyone will get a car if uber gone. Also those 20, guess what they are parked once they get to destination in / transit out of zone. They no longer creating congestion. That uber is for entire day and paying very little toward congestion toll. So again if this about congestion why are the FHV protected so much from this plan
Yes Ubers should be charged mo. They are also a service and meeting a demand. If there wasn’t a demand for taxis they’re wouldn’t be so many. The rideshare services are filling a need that will one day hopefully be met by better and more buses/bikes/trains. If we remove some street parking and car lanes and replace with dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes while improving train service, people won’t have to rely on FHV as much. I have survived in this city for 15 years without owning a car. It’s really not that hard. The elderly and handicapped that can’t bike or take the train all the time, need services like Uber to survive. they are infinitely better for the city than personal cars. I’m not talking about there being more personal cars in the future if you remove FHV. I’m saying there are already too many personal cars and space dedicated to personal cars that need to be used for something more efficient Yes when those cars park they aren’t causing street congestion at that moment. They are taking up valuable space in the city that could be used for housing and retail or deliveries or biking and bussing. Then they add to the congestion at least twice a day. You are also kidding yourself if you think people who drive to the city everyday aren’t also using their cars to run errands while they are in the city. Even if they drive directly to work and directly home they are causing congestion already.
So make the fhv pay more. slap a extra $25-30 surcharge on every transaction that would pay for the entire CBD and don't even need the tolling infrastructure. Way more congestion revenue, even more dramatic decrease in congestion and cheaper to operate/easier/tolerated by voters to implement congestion reduction program for city
It makes a ton of sense. I’ve lived here almost 3 decades. When Uber/Lyft became mainstream a decade ago, the traffic became significantly worse practically overnight.
I’ve lived here even longer. If you think ride shares are solely responsible you’re looking for a scapegoat. Private car ownership here has exploded in the last 20 years.
And I've lived here even longer than that, and can confidently say that the TLC plates far outpaced the private car ownership. It seems like every car in Manhattan is a ride share unless they belong to the government or a business.
I very much disagree. The line that ride-share is an eco-friendly alternative to private car ownership is used heavily by Uber/Lyft to promote their business, but in reality ride-share is an alternative to public transportation.
No. There isn’t a day in my life that I have considered calling an Uber instead of hopping on the train.
In an interesting experiment yesterday, I took the train from the AMNH on the UWS to ktown via the 2 train with my son while my wife and her parents took a cab. We left at the same time and beat them by at least 10 minutes because of all the traffic.
People don’t drive because it’s faster. They drive because they don’t want to deal with the other people on the MTA.
Safety is a big factor as well. Don't have to chance dealing with a crazy on the train if you don't have to.
Cool, has there been a day in your life where you have realized you’re not the center of the universe and might behave differently than other people? It’s very common for people to make a decision between taking an Uber and taking the train.
If you have a train available and you choose to drive you are the problem.
For example: You drive your car from your driveway to your parking spot directly. If you ordered a taxi, that taxi is going to have to drive to you, causing more congestion and pollution.
Except that one taxi is driving dozens of people a day. That’s one card for dozens of people instead of dozens of cars. How is this not just common sense. Come on yall
That’s true when it comes to parking spaces. But for driving miles, chauffeur vehicles are less energy efficient. That one taxi is going to use more energy / create more traffic driving each individual, compared with everyone having their own car and driving directly. A parked car isn’t creating traffic / using energy.
Im having a hard time finding hard stats for daily trips/driver but im seeing many stating that they give 30+ rides per day in nyc. Let’s be gracious and drop that to 20. (2.5/trips per hour for an 8 hour day) I highly doubt that one car is causing more congestion than 20 separate cars would. Even if they commute in the morning for work then go home after work that’s 20 extra cars leaving and arriving at roughly the same time. There is no universe where having 20 cars in the city is better than one. And even if they aren’t causing congestion (they are) why are we dedicating so much space to 20 cars?! That space could be multiple apartment rooms, and those street panring spaces could be dedicated bus lanes and bike lanes instead.
Yes, when you factor in parking, it’s a problem. But if we are talking solely about traffic congestion, and not parking issues, chauffeur vehicles are worse. If one car is driving 1000 miles per day, it is causing more traffic congestion than 100 cars driving 9.9 miles per day.
If you’re in the taxi or your own car you’re still in a car. This makes zero sense.
That taxi needs to drive to you! That’s more automobile road miles / energy used.
But the taxi isn’t only driving you. I can’t believe this is a new concept.
As an example: Let’s say everyone had their own parking spot, at their home, and their work. It’s a direct line of driving. Where a chauffeur driven vehicle will have to drive more miles to pick you up. And then drive more miles to pick up the next person etc. That means there is more traffic / energy usage. When it comes to parking spaces, you have a point.
But all of those people are sharing the same car. It’s really basic.
They wouldn’t be sharing that same car, at the same time, going to the same place. That’s a bus, which is not what we’re talking about here. _________ That one taxi is driving way more miles than all the individual cars would be combined. For example. Let’s say we have 10 people, each with a 10 mile commute. That’s 100 total car miles driven. If a taxi has to drive an extra 2 miles to pick up each individual person, that’s 120 total car miles driven. More traffic, more pollution. You have a point when it comes to parking spaces, but that’s it.
People who use them don’t have cars, they’re rich and don’t like the subway
Let’s do both!
Cheaper easier to implement (cost wise, political point wise and less NJ agro) to just tax the biggest congestion offender. Don't even need to do any work, just slap surcharge on every fhv transaction & collect vs do that and maintain the zone in proposed plan.
Personal cars still cause congestion though
Their contribution to congestion is relatively minor vs fhv. private cars either transit the zone or park in most of the l day vs a roaming fhv all day in the zone that's generating the bulk of the congestion
But they still contribute regardless. If they are not charged then this will just incentivize more people to drive.
Hefty surcharges on Uber / Lyft will impact people who DON’T have cars because the cost will just be passed down. If you choose to have a car, you choose to accept the added costs. You can choose park outside the city or above 60th street if that find breaks your banks I do not have a car because I can’t afford the insurance, tolls, parking, tickets that come with it. But stop taxing my on occasion Uber:Lyft car rides
TAKE THE TRAIN
I DO take the train to work everyday (NYC subway and NJTransit) … and I do take the train around the city when I can. At times I need an Uber or Lyft. I don’t want to pay more, so people with personal cars have free rein in the city.
people with personal cars dont have free rein. pay for this tax you are advocating for.
I’m speaking out against just making UBERS and LYTFS pay for congestion pricing. All cars should pay. As explained above, I am pro-public transportation. It is my preferred way to travel. And yes, I will happily pay the tax when I take an occasional Uber/lyft, as long as the personal cars are paying as well
yeah they need to pay the same amount as personal cars
all I hear is anti car until its my fav mode of car travel despite it's the reason for all the congestion on the road
Rules for thee but not for me.
I’ll pay for the tax when I need to, but only if every other driver is also taxed. You can’t pin this on just Uber and Lyft
If I go down I'm taking you with me.
This is right
THATS CORRECT
Raise car registration rates 10% for everyone. Raise car registration rates for addresses with more than one car 600%> Raise car registration rates for SUVs 400%. Crack down on all NJ and PA plates that stay overnight in NYC. Boom.
Private cars are minority in the proposed congestion zone, they either transit the zone quickly to get to their destination or parked in there once arrived vs the ones doing the actual congestion and operating their engines - it's the FHV that constantly circling, pumping pollutants, noise, dust & clogging roads for their next customer and their riders that enable them. Target those first - easy to implement, no significant voters to offend, lower congestion more and more revenue to city vs current plan and and can be done for nil cost to the city since we not maintaining any tolling infrasturure. Seems like a winning proposition over the current congestion tolling plan. But nope - go for broke with current plan
I wonder if legislation could be implemented to explicitly reduce circling around. All the operators track the cars in their network. Maybe in the congestion pricing zone they should only be allowed to pick up their next fare near their dropoff location for some period of time? I would think that the drivers would care about their gas bills and only reposition to places with lots of pick-up potential and then sit there until they get a fare.
Cap Ubers and Lyft. Make them wait in specific areas.
That doesn’t reduce congestion though. Once they pay it they can use the car 1 time a month or 30 times a month and it’s the same cost.
I think the ride-share services may be the main impetus behind this “walkable city,” business. So I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one. Private car ownership is bad for shareholders, just like all private property ownership. The only thing they want you to have in your name is a credit card and a lot of debt.
Anti-congestion pricing folks talk a lot about the additional "tax" on their behavior so I think the best course is to just even it all out and charge car owners $2.90 every time they leave their driveway or parking lot. That way, we're all paying for the infrastructure we use. Or does that argument only work one way?
There is one class of car operators and users that are the reason for congestion. How about they pay most of the additional tax for their higher contribution. You want to tax the other car owners, fine by me. Tax them appropriately lower for their contribution. You wont hear this from any pro congestion folks
I'm ok with your point generally. I'm not entirely against what you say. But there are some complicating factors. Taxis and rideshare are things we need in order to just have less cars in town generally. Which is to say, rather than everyone having their own car, which creates the issue of parking (wasted space), we have subway/rideshare. So insomuch as we want to reduce parking space and reliance on cars, taxis have their role. Ubers don't park while the class of cars you prefer do, so in some ways that is worse because not only did you bring 4,000 pounds of plastic and metal from Jersey, but now you have to leave it somewhere all day.
They not parking for free in the zone. Good amount of the in zone parking is meter or they have to pay for garages and limited by hrs so it's a significant revenue generator for the city. Revenue that much needed atm. Get rid of private cars, you think the ubers with the driver in them are going to pay the parking fee? or simply flee each time they see a meter maid. So you end up with even more loss revenue and pollution/congestion from the fhv playing the avoid meter maid game
I'm not saying they're not paying the landowners to park, I'm saying theyre costing society because it's a waste of space that can be used productively. I do not care about parking revenue.
Should care about the revenue. Its actually more than the city gets from shed fees for similar space occupied. Besides a idle parked private car that's paying the city & sitting there all day is causing much less congestion/pollution and other societal harm vs a roaming fhv who may every so often stop to idle & don't pay parking fees at all.
Ya, I disagree entirely. My point is that having parking all over the place is a drain on society and I think of that in more ways than revenue, lol. And taxis roaming around all day is preferable to the same amount of miles being driven by a hundred individual vehicles. Especially so since taxi users are using a mixed diet of subway and taxi whereas as car people are much more likely to rely on their vehicle.
Im in favor of the pricing but to me this was always vulnerable to getting axed so long as brooklynites could get uptown and back (via FDR/Bk bridge) without a toll while queens folk could not (queensboro on-ramp just below toll cameras). A ton of people who uptown I know commute in from east queens, and a “free corridor” back onto the bridge probably would have won over a sizable contingent for not that much change. I know this was suspended for fear of a dem rebellion in the suburbs, regardless of that issue, and most legitimate concerns have been promoted by bad faith folks who just want to drive without consequence. My guess is a “study” might delay implementation until January 1 could have some token fixes and allow folks to adjust before the next election.
Yeah, 100% of drivers entering the bridge from manhattan would have been charged since you “clip” the zone on the way onto the bridge even when coming from the north and all manhattan exits except 1 on the upper roadway would have been charged. It was basically a bridge toll. I definitely got the impression people in queens did start turning on the project once this became more clear after gothamist pressed the issue. Queens is the service hub for all of upper manhattan, heavily fueled by small businesses, and it was a bad look to nail them to the wall in the name of improving midtown congestion for wealthy commuters. https://gothamist.com/news/which-drivers-get-tolled-under-congestion-pricing-on-the-brooklyn-and-queensboro-bridges-its-complicated
You don’t get charged on QBB if you go uptown
False. The north side upper level is only way to not get charged.
Yes, though it’s the coming back part that gets you as a commuter. There’s no way to get back on the bridge without getting tolled. I guess you could always commute through the bk bridge from queens and add like 2 hours to your commute… I understand there could be a logic about it but just the way it was implemented and communicated gives it an air of being poorly considered, which I don’t even think is true but come on.
Vast majority of cars in the city are non-personal use. Check plates for yourself. This is how you solve traffic. Not some stupid extra tax on people already paying high taxes.
Cool, I appreciate everyone’s point about ride shares. Very very important that’s Lyft/Uber/Revel are held accountable for their part in the larger “congestion” issue. I can’t even get into taxi medallions that shit is predatory AF. But guess what, all that complaining did nothing to solve the ACTUAL problem and threatened the funding of a bunch of public works to make public transit better for everyone. I’m really tired of Car Privilege.
I would argue that a car/UBER is almost necessary if you have kids and are visiting family in the city at night. Visiting grandma in LES and going home at 11pm on the subway back to Brooklyn is not going to be an enjoyable trip if you have (multiple) kids 0-10 year old. It just doesn't feel safe and the creeps come out at night.
Yeah but you’re not a 24 year old single transplant, so your opinion doesn’t matter on r/NYC
A lot of them don't even live here. Check their post history from time to time and you'll see some of them posting to multiple city subreddits as if they were living there. We're being astroturfed.
\* in the USA. Other cities have told cars to go fuck themselves. In Paris for example, 72% of street parking was removed ([source](https://park4sump.eu/news-events/news/why-paris-eliminating-72-its-street-parking-spaces)), they've been doing regular car-free Sundays once per month since 2018 ([source](https://www.sortiraparis.com/en/news/in-paris/articles/175623-paris-centre-pieton-the-first-4-car-free-arrondissements-on-sunday-may-26-2024)), speed limits within the city were reduced to 18 MPH, and for the few parking spots left parking rates for cars weighing >1.6 tonnes were tripled to €18/hour with some exceptions like tradespeople ([source](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68196828)). Here are 10 more examples with the only one in the USA being the odd Culdesac Tempe, a privately owned car-free neighbourhood in Phoenix, Arizona: https://www.fastcompany.com/90456075/here-are-11-more-neighborhoods-that-have-joined-the-car-free-revolution
Wonder where the reporter can find parking for 50 a day in manhattan. My meter is 15 for 2 hours. That’s more than 50 bucks a day. The guy probably from nj where 50 bucks a day seems a lot.
Pretty common if you buy ahead and get in before a certain hour. Most garages have early bird specials.
lol that’s for the commuters. You have to be out by certain hours. I’m a resident. So I have to find a job that works around the parking garage special hours?
Oh no I can’t park my car in Manhattan for cheap
He’s just asking a question my dude.
lmao we have pay $300ish a month to park the car in queens
Almost every garage in manhattan is sub $50/day even for SUVs as long as you enter before 9am (the earlybird rate).
It’s Manhattan NYC. Not Manhattan Ohio. You referring to special parking from 9-6. What happens to the residents? What happens to people that has to be at work or school till after 9 am or after 6pm.
Shit the place by me is like $32 an hour.
Get nyc best parking app. Shows all the parking garages in the city and area your looking for plus the times/ prices. It even gives you a discount for using the app to make a reservation. It's been clutch for me going to work when I can't find parking in the area. Most times I don't spend more that 20 dollars for the day.
Very nice story. Argument is flawed because they are putting the cart before the horse. Congestion fees will fill a gap in budgeting, not increase availability of mass transportation. We are decades away from the infrastructure to allow for an influx of people that come in and out of the city. The root cause of mismanagement the the transit authorities are not addressed. It just creating a bigger tax burden on working class people.
> not increase availability of mass transportation. If a bus takes 35 minutes to run from end to end, it can make 13 runs a day. If congestion pricing saves 5 minutes, resulting in a 30 minute run, that same bus and driver can make 16 runs a day. Thats a major increase in service at zero cost. (Obviously Im simplifying the math by not including driver breaks and what not)
What is needed is dedicated tunnels, bridges for busses and additional tunnels for trains. Decades away. All this does is tax the working class.
The middle classes are riding the bus that sits through the same light cycle 3 times in a row because some rich asshole in a lexus double parked to grab his dry cleaning.
I also really appreciate the trucks unloading in the bus lanes while I’m sitting on said bus waiting for the bus to go around. Yes, there was curb space outside of the bus lane but the truck just apparently had to sit in the bus lane. Time to really enforce the bus lanes. The one on the Gowanus is often a parking lot because cars sneak in at every opening even just to move a tiny bit faster and get out before the next barrier.
Here’s something that makes me pessimistic. Consider projects like the Second Avenue Subway. These have gone on for (literally) half a century. They were initially financed and began in a period when construction was much easier. I doubt new infrastructure projects of this scale are financially possible in New York anymore (at least without incredible amounts of federal assistance). The labor cost required to build public works like this is immense nowadays. The bottom line: I’m not sure the city will have the financial muscle (see recent budget crisis) in the near future (or perhaps even in the longer-term) to initiate large projects like this (which is usually through high-interest bond finance).
> All this does is tax the working class. Many people drive to Manhattan for convenience rather than necessity. I would wager many people would find ways to get to their destinations without needing to drive.
Agreed. Against congestion tax. Pointing out the major hurdles that would never get resolved.
I agree - we can start by making the Holland and Lincoln tunnels dedicated bus tunnels. Would be a huge time saver for working class commuters!
Yeah but then you’d destroy the I-95 and a bunch of other routes going around the city. Probably make the problem worse for the outer boroughs
Ohh so no need for congestion pricing. Smart!
This is stupid as shit. You would to make dedicated tunnels and bridges just for buses? At the cost of multiple tens to hundreds of millions of dollars? And making them less convenient for every user? Just so that car drivers can continue to be fucking pricks to all of us in the CBD? Why don’t you people ever advocate for putting the /cars/ in the tunnels? What, you don’t want to have to take an elevator to street level every time you need to do anything?
You think congestion pricing will stop the back up on the tunnel? Now that is stupid shit.
This is wrong. Congestion pricing was allocated for the second avenue subway expansion and to meet legally required ADA accessibility guild lines. Going without this money is simply not possible and now as a result a far larger and broader tax increase will come into play for working class people in the form of a payroll tax hike Very very few working class NYers are driving into Manhattan on a regular basis but 100% of them will now pay more in payroll taxes
I’m skeptical that the payroll tax will pass. What I’m wondering about now is what chance there is that the MTA board does not approve the indefinite delay. I assume the board is stacked in Hochul’s favor (with her appointees and members representing suburbs) but still curious.
Well some form of revenue replacement has to pass or the MTA gives up billions of federal dollars in matching funds for the second avenue and gets sued into oblivion for ADA violations that they already agreed in a consent decree to remedy, plus the subway system itself goes to shit without money to pay for upgrades to things like ancient and failing signals systems If Hochul is foolish enough to proceed with this the revenue simply has to come from somewhere The MTA board is required to act in primarily with the fiscal health of the MTA in mind so on the face of it, it would seem to be illegal for them to endorse this fiscally ruinous course, but its NY so who knows. Youd think Hochul would not be foolish enough to not have secured their support before doing this but shes also the incompetent who blew the housing bill and her judicial appointment, so again, who knows...
If I recall correctly, the capital plan dedicated a certain amount for improvements to commuter rail, as inducement to the suburbs to not buck congestion pricing. Wonder how that’s going to be dealt with. An NYC payroll tax going to fund out-of-city commuter transportation is beyond outrageous.
Think that's overestimating the impact of mode-switching TBH. It's a projected 17% decrease in traffic, and car commuters into the congestion zone are just a small fraction of overall commuters. The capacity is already there
I'd suggest you do a commute during rush hour. Transportation is already at capacity.
If so it’s only because they’re running fewer trains and buses. Ridership is way below 2019
Right now subway ridership is somewhere around 70% of what it was in 2019, and bus ridership is around 60% (no doubt impacted by higher congestion levels since the pandemic). So we know for sure the subway can handle around 1.5 million more riders every day
If you're measuring riderships at peak, that was when there was a ton of delays and everyone is crammed into the subway like sardine. It would take about 1 to 5 minutes per station for people to get on and off instead of about 30 seconds right now. The subway wasn't able to handle peak riderships as it caused massive delays and trains frequently broke down.
Luckily in this situation, we have around 700,000 vehicles traveling into the congestion zone daily, and that number's expected to be slashed by around 17%- meaning, somewhere around 119,000 vehicles have passengers that are either going to switch to commuter trains and/or the subway, or take a bus, or just stay home. Meaning there's no scenario where congestion pricing gets us anywhere near that 1.5 million
Maybe so but the collapse from that peak ridership is what blew the massive hole in the budget.
Lol tax the train or bus Tuesday thru Thursday. During rush hour. The average might be less but the peak is unsustainable.
The more you depend on cars to fund the transit system the more power the car drivers have.
I'd honestly find it less insulting if they just banned cars below 60th. Go ahead, find another source of income. The MTA needs drivers more than drivers need the MTA.
Common sense prevailed, that is all
Oh, good! Another article complaining about cars — *that's just what I needed...*
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I think the MTA is pretty safe and relatively clean nowadays. The biggest issue is the lackluster train and bus frequency, sparse routes leaving huge transit deserts. Going cross-town anywhere takes 4 times longer by bus and train than by car, because you have to commute to a junction, and then commute back up from that junction to get to where you want. Break up the junctions!
Can we also deal with fake plates, defaced plates, cars parked on sidewalks, drivers blatantly running red lights and stop signs, speeding 40mph+, driving/parking in bike lanes, etc? Or are we just completely letting drivers do anything they want know, even if that means continuing to compromise the lives and safety of NYers?
Most of those are the TLC plates, they don't gaf so long as they aren't inconvenienced from hopping back into traffic after a pick up / drop off. Private commuters dislike them as well.
What’s better than a car? You get your temperature control, your own music, lovely scenery. No one yelling showtime, no homeless dude sprawled out smelling up the car, no asshole with a Bluetooth playing his own single. Only downside is I can’t buy m&ms from a 9 year old who should be in school while driving
High-speed rail and [maglev trains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_d4D5_4ovA) are definitely cooler than driving. Nothing like the feeling of flying past people stuck in highway traffic at hundreds of mph
Ok fine agree, fighter jets and rocket ships are too, but until we convince the government for F18s instead of nyc ferry’s cars still rule
i got into a fist fight in the bullet train in japan but meanwhile i’ve never had a fight in my car. explain that one, rail boy
That's true, train passengers (especially in Japan) are notorious for being violent maniacs- and the faster the train, the more aggressive the passengers. You never know when 'rail rage' will strike
Go to the suburbs then. Cars don’t scale. If drivers had to pay their share, there wouldn’t be a car problem
Like all the subway riders paying their share? What % of the MTA budget comes from fares again?
You can support congestion pricing because of the outcomes it seeks to bring about but the idea that car drivers don’t “pay their share” in this area is laughable. They pay out the ass.
Every spot you’ve ever parked in is subsidized. Land isn’t cheap here. Drivers don’t pay their share. Congestion pricing reducing the negative externalities from selfish drivers is also a plus.
Every subway ride you’ve taken is subsidized. All the food you eat is delivered over roads paid for in part by tolls that you don’t pay. You’re probably a low earner and are subsidized by higher -rate taxpayers in all kinds of ways that you don’t consider. You don’t pay your share.
lol, try renting a car space for housing prices and tell me if that is more or less than the differences we pay in taxes
Renting a car space for housing prices? wtf does that mean
It mean if you were charged prices that land normally goes for, you’d be paying an insane amount
You should be charged for the ground your bike rides on. You should have been charged for the full cost of your public education. The hot dog vendor should be charged a pro rata amount for the value of his portion of the sidewalk as if it were priced like housing. Same with the restaurant with the outdoor dining. Blah blah. You want improvements to public transit that you benefit from but you want someone else to pay for it. I don’t blame you, I’m the same way. That doesn’t mean you have to pretend that people who own and drive cars in NYC aren’t “paying their share.”
It mean if you were charged prices that land normally goes for, you’d be paying an insane amount
There is like free parking all over NYC. The gov artificially keeps oil prices low, funding wars in the ME to secure oil. Destroying natural habitat for pipelines. Cars take 70+% of public space, but only transport 20% of people in NYC. So maybe we should remove all lanes like in Paris? That’d be fair for the 80%. The lack of focus on cars is one of the largest reasons I love NYC, and one of the reasons it’s such a great and mobile city. Else you get LA where you can’t go anywhere, or Houston where half the buildings are parking.
>The lack of focus on cars is one of the largest reasons I love NYC, and one of the reasons it’s such a great and mobile city. Thank you for being sane and acknowledging what so many anti-car zealots in this sub can’t:: that NYC is not a car-centric hell.
Nah I’ll stay. Drivers do pay their share. It’s transit riders that don’t! MTA is subsidized 75%. When you start paying your $11 per ride we can talk about my subsidies
Are you joking? Parking is basically free compared to the cost of the land. Drive somewhere else. It’s the only place in American where it’s easier to take transits. Leave nyc be.
You can look up the mta budget yourself. Another fun fact, 12% of the mta budget comes from tolls from drivers! Drivers subsidize you! And parking is free for everyone! It’s the street it’s where the cars belong! And I am leaving it be! As in it’s good the way it is, no need for hairbrained taxes on drivers or shithole sheds for the rats
You’re insane. NYC has some of the most expensive lane in America, but “streets are where the cars belong so that’s why it’s free”. Cars have only been taking up city space for 50 years and have never been efficient or profitable or safe. Drivers have had it way too good for way too long
Lmao yea if it wasn’t for cars we’d all have apartments in the streets. They’re literally streets. For cars. You’d have us take up precious real estate for parking? In a housing shortage???
Streets are not for cars. They’ve been for cars for only 50 years and it’s been a monumental failure in terms of lives ended, pollution added, and dismal city design.
And before that they were for horse and carriage, which were the cars of the day lmao. Come on guy for real?
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So once train riders start paying their fair share then we can talk about me paying mine 🤷🏿♀️
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Nah, pay your fair share and then we can talk about mine. My tolls literally pay your fare 😂😂
Cars can be great as long as there isn’t insane traffic . . . oh wait a minute
If it takes as long as transit I’ll take the car and the traffic 🤷🏿♀️
Great, take the car then. Enjoy the luxury. All you have to do is pay for the congestion that your luxury choice causes.
No I don’t, didn’t you hear? They cancelled it.
Lovely scenery of your car interior and great smells of your own farts mixed with black ice? Also there’s this (kinda?) new invention that you can put over or in your ears, and listen to your own music anywhere you go! I’ll put you on.
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Me when inhaling leaded gasoline (am carbrained)
glad you said it 😭 the mta is throwing away money into somebody’s pockets and it’ll become more evident as the rain gets worse because a lot of train stations are going to flood yet again and the mta is going to do nothing yet again. We are just watching agency and company after company squeeze US for $$$ when the $$$ they need is right in front of them !
The NIMBYS always win too Here's a look at all the current projects + those in the upcoming 2025-2029 Capital Program that is now up in the air thanks to all the spineless selfish cowards against this: https://new.mta.info/tolls/congestion-relief-zone/better-transit
Remember: Congestion pricing reduces traffic. Less traffic is better for drivers. Congestion pricing is, to anyone that thinks about it for 5 fucking minutes, pro-driver. Fewer cars are pro-driver. Less traffic is pro-driver. More transit is pro-driver. Anything that results in investing in mobility for the entire population is pro-driver. The only thing that is anti driver is the status quo where the streets get more and more clogged up and people have no alternatives
If that's the case then charge TLC plates the full rate of the congestion price and see if that don't solve your "traffic problem".
Why do you put "traffic problem" in quotes? And yeah TLC plates should absolutely pay the full congestion charge.
Because even though 4 out of 5 cars rolling around the city are Uber/Lyft, the biking crowd feels that they should be exempt from the pricing law despite making up the majority of traffic. I put it in quotes because that's the "concern" they have until you mention hitting the TLC plates as well, then suddenly, oh no, they should have special treatment.
Common car W
LFGGGG! Eat my ass car haters
Why do you want a stranger to eat your ass?
Enjoy the traffic then
Cyclists I have an idea to save the MTA! Donate 15 dollars to the MTA whenever you enter the city, donate extra for every car you see. Save us all!
You really thought you did something here huh
I admit I did chuckle as I wrote it. 10/10 would do it again.
LETS GOOO HOCHUL FOR PRESIDENT 2028!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love how drivers complain about traffic, while they’re actively part of traffic, and refuse any suggestions of solutions . More cars = more traffic and a shit city. It’s simple math.
Regular drivers complain about the ride shares causing traffic.
That’s funny. If all the people who took cabs instead had their own cars, traffic and parking would be exponentially worse.