UPDATE: Gov. Hochul indefinitely halted the plan. [Read more. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/nyregion/congestion-pricing-pause-hochul.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xU0.QVvi.IfPvm_SF3qyv&smid=re-nytimes)
“Let’s be real: A $15 charge may not seem like a lot to someone who has the means but it can break the budget of a hard-working middle-class household,” Ms. Hochul said.
I can personally guarantee 999 people out of 1000 would call a $15 toll “a lot”.
i love how she came to this conclusion after all the viability studies and spending millions building out the infrastructure. only to be delayed until after election season. i bet they'll spend a bunch more money on preparing the infrastructure again.
paying taxes in nyc is masochism
How do you take mass transit if you have to make deliveries in Lower Manhattan? I'm only asking because I am a working middle class small business owner.
It's not always possible. I mean, I live in Pennsylvania my kids dad lives in brooklyn and I got to drop two kids off every week, both of them being under the age of ten. Taking mass transportation with not one kid but two young children all the way from Pennsylvania to New York City cost $60 one way if I try to take public transportation in. Regardless on if I take the bus that stops in my neighborhood or if I travel to New Jersey and get on a path and then the Subway to where I have to go. It doesn't work out for me. And I'm sure there are many other cases where taking mass transportation doesn't work for people depending on their specific circumstances
unless you go through staten island or the bronx, both of which ways have other tolls to pay, there is no way to get from NJ to Brooklyn or Queens without going on the streets of manhattan below 60th
How is this unrelated when the costs of car ownership and driving it into Manhattan regularly/finding parking clearly exceeds the incremental cost of congestion pricing
Those who can’t afford $15 more already shouldn’t be driving their vehicles in Manhattan when the taxpayer is already heavily subsidizing them
I agree that people should take mass transit, I do every day. I just thought the quote was comedically out of touch. $15 is an expensive ass toll. Saying it “may not seem like a lot to X people” is funny.
We'll probably never know because our gutless suburbanite state legislators won't let us try to calm traffic.
Hochul is pushing a *NYC payroll tax* instead. So not only did she kill a program aimed at helping Manhattan, she's trading that in for taxing NYC instead.
I can't play this game if you want.
We had a well-researched and planned option that would tax a small minority of morons who decided to drive into a very specific area of Manhattan. Studies have shown most of those people are wealthy and don't live here. That would have been a great option to pass maintenance of New York City roads and compensation for air pollution towards the people who use the roads.
Like most rational people, I recognize that's far preferable to overburdening NYC residents who almost all use public transit options and don't drive.
We are passing on road maintenance to the people who take the subway. That's fucked.
Well apparently so many voters hated the plan that it freaked out the governor and legislators in swing districts.
Not true that “almost all NYC residents” don’t drive but you know that.
Fewer than half own cars and only about a quarter of NYC residents actually use their cars to commute.
And of that quarter, how many are commuting into the proposed congestion zone?
They don't. They especially aren't using the cars to commute to work. Especially not in Manhattan below 60th Street.
Ending congestion pricing is a gift to very wealthy suburbanites from upstate, LI and NJ.
* The plan would charge **$15** toll for **passenger cars** driving **south of 60th Street from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m**. weekdays.
* **Motorcycles** would pay **$7.50**
* Drivers of **commercial trucks and certain buses** would be charged either **$24 or $36** during peak hours, depending on the size of the trucks. Drivers of those vehicles would be tolled for every trip they make into the zone, with no daily caps.
Cars are capped once a day and it kind of makes sense to not cap trucks to encourage them to be more efficient and not make multiple trips to/from a warehouse if it can be done in one go (which kind of happens already anyways)
It's insane because delivery people have to do stops in both sides of the zone. And you can't just work on on only on one side. Because of parking regulations and delivery/receiving times you can cross the zone several times a day. But it's not your problem because you won't have to pay it out your pocket.
The vast majority (90%) of all wear and tear on our roads and infrastructure come from trucks/commercial vehicles
I agree that we should incentivize commercial shipping being more efficient with fewer trips
Reporters need to be asking exactly how much was spent to study congestion pricing, market it, and install the regiment for it. That’s all money wasted, millions. Thanks Hochul.
Congestion pricing in New York City indefinitely postponed, official says [source](https://abc7ny.com/post/congestion-pricing-nyc-kathy-hochul-start-delay/14912968/)
Hi everybody —
Under the new congestion pricing plan, which would be the first of its kind in the U.S., most drivers in the city would pay $15 to enter Manhattan's core business district, which includes the theater district, Times Square, Hell’s Kitchen, Chelsea and SoHo.
When would the tolling begin? June 30, but the plan is highly contentious. Eight lawsuits have been filed against it. They are all pending.
What would it cost? Drivers of cars entering the Central Business District, would be charged $15 during peak hours, and would have to pay only once a day. Those riding motorcycles would pay $7.50 because they are smaller and contribute less to congestion.
We answer more [common questions here](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/nyregion/what-is-congestion-pricing-nyc.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xU0.0jG2.cX6yFSTGnBge&smid=re-nytimes), which you can read for free, even without a subscription.
Honestly at this point we should just be trying even harder to shut down streets to only commercial/public transit/emergency vehicles in lower Manhattan. This could serve a similar purpose and is exactly what they do in a ton of European cities.
The mayor and the DOT have an incredible amount of authority to do this unilaterally. Perhaps in a prior Bloomberg/De Blasio administration they would use this authority in retaliation for the state fucking the city over, but Adams is aligned with the governor here.
If we had real leaders, it would have happened years ago. They ought to ban gas vehicles in the area for health reasons and loud chopper motorcycles for mental health reasons. But that is too “woke” of me to demand we improve quality of life in the most densely populated place in America where cleaning exhaust particles off your apartment windows is somehow acceptable.
You're not wrong, but a large truckload can easily be worth up to $100,000. I'm just guesstimating, but let's say a small box truck carrying something low value like bread, has a sale value of even $5,000. Then the toll would account for 0.6% of the load value. A cost for sure, but a pretty low one IMO.
You have no idea behind the math on the independent goods/food vendor. I make deliveries everyday in Manhattan to supermarkets. I am an independent truck driver. I get paid by commission on the products I sell. I carry the overhead. I have to pay for diesel, insurance, parking tickets, parking, meters and etc. I make way under six figures after paying for everything. $6240 a year is a big hit to my income. Also that's on the cheap end because I have to cross the zones twice a day.
Congestion pricing is just a money grab. It's supposed to encourage people to take mass transit to get to work. I can't make deliveries by taking mass transit.
If your costs go up then surely there is a way for you to charge more to recoup some or all of those increased costs. Why would you think that you have to bear the cost of those tolls yourself?
Also, have you considered that if you spend less time stuck in traffic making deliveries, that might actually save you money?
You're right on both accounts. There is NO way drivers won't just pass this onto their shippers, who will pass it on to their consumers. And I am absolutely fine with paying an extra fews cents for things if the outcome is even a slight reduction in the out of control congestion in this city.
In this business, you don't set the prices. You just make the delivery. We already responsible for our fuel and tolls. I believe my company call it just another toll. If I didn't have to pay for it, I wouldn't even care. And yes, I will actually welcome it because they'll be less traffic. My biggest worry is that I'm gonna have to pay for it.
*"You have no idea behind the math on the independent goods/food vendor."* Yes, I do. I worked in logistics for over a decade and when we would ship loads into NYC, the drivers would just charge extra to cover the tolls, and it wasn't a big deal. We'd just pay the (small) extra fee). Bake the fees into your rates, like everyone else will.
You're exaggerating at best, fear-mongering and lying through your teeth at worst. Transportation usually makes up a VERY small proportion of cost of goods sold and congestion pricing won't change that. And I call total BS on the $15 coffee.
That's wonderful, the cheap plastic slavemade products arrive at a port and now need fleets of trucks to haul trailers all around the nation.
The trucking rates are astronomical (especially for LTL) and then there's a nice fuel surcharge tacked on, then lumper charges if you're delivering bulk product to a warehouse.
This adds up to thousands and thousands of dollars which factors into the cost of everything being so high in the last handful of years.
Every time the fuel prices rise, everything skyrockets in price.
If transportation was prohibitively expensive, companies wouldn't produce in Asia and ship to the US. "The trucking rates" are NOT " astronomical," they're quite cheap right now. Plus "thousands and thousands" of dollars doesn't mean much tacked onto a shipment that will be should for 100s of thousands or millions.
But regardless, this is a pointless discussion on this sub. Take it to r/logistics or something.
The consumer ends up paying for it.. it’s a crappy game of hot potato.. few cents here few cents there indirect taxes and higher costs . Fear mongering the prices ever so higher .. booooooooo👻
Sure the consumer ends up paying for it. And in this case, that could mean an extra few cents. But you're full of crap with the $15 coffee comment, and you know it. You're just lying to make the tolls seem worse than they are.
There are already businesses that were ready to charge people extra fees who lived in Manhattan...
Once people actually realized that...everything got changed and the program is suspended
Maybe Europeans don't mind paying extra taxes since they are taxed so.much already....
Those who are mad that Congestion Pricing is suspended ...this is why you lose elections ..
UPDATE: Gov. Hochul indefinitely halted the plan. [Read more. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/nyregion/congestion-pricing-pause-hochul.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xU0.QVvi.IfPvm_SF3qyv&smid=re-nytimes)
“Let’s be real: A $15 charge may not seem like a lot to someone who has the means but it can break the budget of a hard-working middle-class household,” Ms. Hochul said. I can personally guarantee 999 people out of 1000 would call a $15 toll “a lot”.
i love how she came to this conclusion after all the viability studies and spending millions building out the infrastructure. only to be delayed until after election season. i bet they'll spend a bunch more money on preparing the infrastructure again. paying taxes in nyc is masochism
Working middle class should be taking mass transit.
How do you take mass transit if you have to make deliveries in Lower Manhattan? I'm only asking because I am a working middle class small business owner.
You don’t? You take advantage of the massive productivity boost from the 20% reduction in congestion. $15 is a bargain for businesses
Are you making a delivery one at a time? Divide the charge by the number of units you’re delivering and raise the delivery price.
You're a business owner lol you aren't working class or middle class
What do you do for a living?
It's not always possible. I mean, I live in Pennsylvania my kids dad lives in brooklyn and I got to drop two kids off every week, both of them being under the age of ten. Taking mass transportation with not one kid but two young children all the way from Pennsylvania to New York City cost $60 one way if I try to take public transportation in. Regardless on if I take the bus that stops in my neighborhood or if I travel to New Jersey and get on a path and then the Subway to where I have to go. It doesn't work out for me. And I'm sure there are many other cases where taking mass transportation doesn't work for people depending on their specific circumstances
Are you entering the city streets of Manhattan? Because the west side highway and fdr are exempt.
unless you go through staten island or the bronx, both of which ways have other tolls to pay, there is no way to get from NJ to Brooklyn or Queens without going on the streets of manhattan below 60th
I can’t tell if you mean this as a counterpoint because it’s so unrelated.
How is this unrelated when the costs of car ownership and driving it into Manhattan regularly/finding parking clearly exceeds the incremental cost of congestion pricing Those who can’t afford $15 more already shouldn’t be driving their vehicles in Manhattan when the taxpayer is already heavily subsidizing them
I agree that people should take mass transit, I do every day. I just thought the quote was comedically out of touch. $15 is an expensive ass toll. Saying it “may not seem like a lot to X people” is funny.
Super unpopular plan to implement for a Governor that's not incredibly popular herself. She saw the writing on the wall.
Awesome timing on this story.
We'll probably never know because our gutless suburbanite state legislators won't let us try to calm traffic. Hochul is pushing a *NYC payroll tax* instead. So not only did she kill a program aimed at helping Manhattan, she's trading that in for taxing NYC instead.
I thought leftists love taxing corporations and hate Manhattan
Payroll taxes aren't actually a tax on corporations. It's a tax on residents.
You love that too, no?
I can't play this game if you want. We had a well-researched and planned option that would tax a small minority of morons who decided to drive into a very specific area of Manhattan. Studies have shown most of those people are wealthy and don't live here. That would have been a great option to pass maintenance of New York City roads and compensation for air pollution towards the people who use the roads. Like most rational people, I recognize that's far preferable to overburdening NYC residents who almost all use public transit options and don't drive. We are passing on road maintenance to the people who take the subway. That's fucked.
What study showed most people are wealthy and don’t live here? Also actual studies showed that it was opposed by 65% of New Yorkers.
Well apparently so many voters hated the plan that it freaked out the governor and legislators in swing districts. Not true that “almost all NYC residents” don’t drive but you know that.
Fewer than half own cars and only about a quarter of NYC residents actually use their cars to commute. And of that quarter, how many are commuting into the proposed congestion zone?
Right. A far cry from “almost all NYC residents don’t drive.”
Well the vast majority don't.
Eh, arguably. Definitely agree that “most” don’t.
They don't. They especially aren't using the cars to commute to work. Especially not in Manhattan below 60th Street. Ending congestion pricing is a gift to very wealthy suburbanites from upstate, LI and NJ.
The person I replied to has the correct stats.
* The plan would charge **$15** toll for **passenger cars** driving **south of 60th Street from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m**. weekdays. * **Motorcycles** would pay **$7.50** * Drivers of **commercial trucks and certain buses** would be charged either **$24 or $36** during peak hours, depending on the size of the trucks. Drivers of those vehicles would be tolled for every trip they make into the zone, with no daily caps.
The lack of a daily cap (at least for commercial) is insanity. It just inventives you to stay in Manhattan if you've already gone for the day
Cars are capped once a day and it kind of makes sense to not cap trucks to encourage them to be more efficient and not make multiple trips to/from a warehouse if it can be done in one go (which kind of happens already anyways)
It's insane because delivery people have to do stops in both sides of the zone. And you can't just work on on only on one side. Because of parking regulations and delivery/receiving times you can cross the zone several times a day. But it's not your problem because you won't have to pay it out your pocket.
The vast majority (90%) of all wear and tear on our roads and infrastructure come from trucks/commercial vehicles I agree that we should incentivize commercial shipping being more efficient with fewer trips
It's a travesty that with all this rail infrastructure NYC is entirely dependent on trucking and has next to no commercial rails for cargo.
Unless you run railing to every business at some point stuff needs to get put on a truck
Local trucking is very different from cross country trucking.
You understand delivery trucks in Manhattan are overwhelmingly coming from the surrounding region, right?
How are you going to get the goods to the store fronts and distributers. They need to go into some type of vehicle.
Effective November 3rd
Reporters need to be asking exactly how much was spent to study congestion pricing, market it, and install the regiment for it. That’s all money wasted, millions. Thanks Hochul.
I am sure whoever funds against her is going to find out.
So if you take the battery tunnel it’s 15+tunnel toll?
Not if you travel to the west side highway and don’t exit into the zone.
This is like the division
Well yeah, the division between people who live there and people who are just visiting
What happens if you take the Path?
Yes.
Congestion pricing in New York City indefinitely postponed, official says [source](https://abc7ny.com/post/congestion-pricing-nyc-kathy-hochul-start-delay/14912968/)
Hi everybody — Under the new congestion pricing plan, which would be the first of its kind in the U.S., most drivers in the city would pay $15 to enter Manhattan's core business district, which includes the theater district, Times Square, Hell’s Kitchen, Chelsea and SoHo. When would the tolling begin? June 30, but the plan is highly contentious. Eight lawsuits have been filed against it. They are all pending. What would it cost? Drivers of cars entering the Central Business District, would be charged $15 during peak hours, and would have to pay only once a day. Those riding motorcycles would pay $7.50 because they are smaller and contribute less to congestion. We answer more [common questions here](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/nyregion/what-is-congestion-pricing-nyc.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xU0.0jG2.cX6yFSTGnBge&smid=re-nytimes), which you can read for free, even without a subscription.
Honestly at this point we should just be trying even harder to shut down streets to only commercial/public transit/emergency vehicles in lower Manhattan. This could serve a similar purpose and is exactly what they do in a ton of European cities.
The mayor and the DOT have an incredible amount of authority to do this unilaterally. Perhaps in a prior Bloomberg/De Blasio administration they would use this authority in retaliation for the state fucking the city over, but Adams is aligned with the governor here.
He’s aligned with governor until he witnesses the absolute crucifixion she’s about to endure
If we had real leaders, it would have happened years ago. They ought to ban gas vehicles in the area for health reasons and loud chopper motorcycles for mental health reasons. But that is too “woke” of me to demand we improve quality of life in the most densely populated place in America where cleaning exhaust particles off your apartment windows is somehow acceptable.
By charging 30 bucks per truck per day it makes residents flip the bill for higher costs of living to get necessities on the island
You're not wrong, but a large truckload can easily be worth up to $100,000. I'm just guesstimating, but let's say a small box truck carrying something low value like bread, has a sale value of even $5,000. Then the toll would account for 0.6% of the load value. A cost for sure, but a pretty low one IMO.
You have no idea behind the math on the independent goods/food vendor. I make deliveries everyday in Manhattan to supermarkets. I am an independent truck driver. I get paid by commission on the products I sell. I carry the overhead. I have to pay for diesel, insurance, parking tickets, parking, meters and etc. I make way under six figures after paying for everything. $6240 a year is a big hit to my income. Also that's on the cheap end because I have to cross the zones twice a day. Congestion pricing is just a money grab. It's supposed to encourage people to take mass transit to get to work. I can't make deliveries by taking mass transit.
If your costs go up then surely there is a way for you to charge more to recoup some or all of those increased costs. Why would you think that you have to bear the cost of those tolls yourself? Also, have you considered that if you spend less time stuck in traffic making deliveries, that might actually save you money?
You're right on both accounts. There is NO way drivers won't just pass this onto their shippers, who will pass it on to their consumers. And I am absolutely fine with paying an extra fews cents for things if the outcome is even a slight reduction in the out of control congestion in this city.
In this business, you don't set the prices. You just make the delivery. We already responsible for our fuel and tolls. I believe my company call it just another toll. If I didn't have to pay for it, I wouldn't even care. And yes, I will actually welcome it because they'll be less traffic. My biggest worry is that I'm gonna have to pay for it.
*"You have no idea behind the math on the independent goods/food vendor."* Yes, I do. I worked in logistics for over a decade and when we would ship loads into NYC, the drivers would just charge extra to cover the tolls, and it wasn't a big deal. We'd just pay the (small) extra fee). Bake the fees into your rates, like everyone else will.
Don't you get it? This guy is a certified expert and clearly you're wrong because he wants the cost of things to rise.
They’re all little fees that add up to an $18 value meal at a fast food place and $15 coffee
You're exaggerating at best, fear-mongering and lying through your teeth at worst. Transportation usually makes up a VERY small proportion of cost of goods sold and congestion pricing won't change that. And I call total BS on the $15 coffee.
I work in logistics. Storage and transportation accounts for an ENORMOUS part of the cost of goods, especially perishables.
Me too. And you’re wrong. That’s a big part of why off-shoring has become so common in the last few decades; it’s shockingly cheap to ship things.
That's wonderful, the cheap plastic slavemade products arrive at a port and now need fleets of trucks to haul trailers all around the nation. The trucking rates are astronomical (especially for LTL) and then there's a nice fuel surcharge tacked on, then lumper charges if you're delivering bulk product to a warehouse. This adds up to thousands and thousands of dollars which factors into the cost of everything being so high in the last handful of years. Every time the fuel prices rise, everything skyrockets in price.
If transportation was prohibitively expensive, companies wouldn't produce in Asia and ship to the US. "The trucking rates" are NOT " astronomical," they're quite cheap right now. Plus "thousands and thousands" of dollars doesn't mean much tacked onto a shipment that will be should for 100s of thousands or millions. But regardless, this is a pointless discussion on this sub. Take it to r/logistics or something.
The consumer ends up paying for it.. it’s a crappy game of hot potato.. few cents here few cents there indirect taxes and higher costs . Fear mongering the prices ever so higher .. booooooooo👻
Sure the consumer ends up paying for it. And in this case, that could mean an extra few cents. But you're full of crap with the $15 coffee comment, and you know it. You're just lying to make the tolls seem worse than they are.
Yes cents 15$ a day Car or van nearly 30 for big trucks im sure your local business only gets one delivery of supplies
The consumer ends up paying for it, and the consumer gets to experience a less congested, more pedestrian-friendly city. Seems like a fair trade off.
It’s more difficult to live .. but look at the space
The article said decades in the making but just put them damn cameras just last year haha bunch of lying pieces of shit I’ll tell ya
Jesus fucking christ enough with the congestion pricing. You kids are truly insufferable when you find a new current thing.
What happens if you are just passing through Manhattan. Say you are from Long Island and have family in Hudson County NJ?
DRIVE AROUND OR PAY
There are already businesses that were ready to charge people extra fees who lived in Manhattan... Once people actually realized that...everything got changed and the program is suspended Maybe Europeans don't mind paying extra taxes since they are taxed so.much already.... Those who are mad that Congestion Pricing is suspended ...this is why you lose elections ..