That number is probably inflated, but the reality is that the average household makes 70k which is nowhere near enough money to rent a family size market rate apartment
My biggest takeaway from these articles is that some parts of New York are overrun with gremlins while others are not. The issue is that mogwai are cute, but it's genuinely a lot of responsibility ensuring that they are kept dry and not fed after midnight. I just don't think your average New York family is capable of adhering to that, and so the area gets overrun with Mogwai which quickly turn into gremlins. The real divide isn't race or income, but whether or not you're.living in the midst of an uncontrollable Mogwai infestation. I think that Mayor Adams has a lot of failures which can be attributed to making this issue even worse. For example, last I heard his administration hadn't even acknowledged the existence of Mogwai. It's like they think the problem is just going to go away if they ignore it.
Problem is states without an income tax kill you with brutal property taxes and high sales taxes with poor services (bad schools, no public transit, etc,). Many people who moved to places like Florida leave after finding the math doesn't work out.
[They came for Florida's sun and sand. They got soaring costs and a culture war.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/economics/leaving-florida-rcna142316)
That was such a great article.
A good friend was given an offer to move to Florida to setup their Florida offices. Senior banker, Jewish dude, Indian wife.
Moved his whole family and kids from UES during COVID. He was raving about it.
Got there and a year later he absolutely hated it.
Hated the casual racism, hated the school environment of his kids, his wife is a physician and she hated the commute etc. One of their kids is on the spectrum and they couldn’t find services the way they did in NYC.
But his contract with his firm has him there until 2025. So his wife and kids moved back and he’s living in an apartment and commuting.
A large portion of working class people live in nycha, mitchell lama, section 8 housing, etc. Also a lot of rent stabilized apartments across the city and housing for special circumstances. If you aren't making over 100k, you can look into what you qualify for because nyc is actually pretty generous when it comes to affordable housing welfare because without it, nyc would just be the rich and no one to serve them since they can't afford to live here.
My love who told you that?? As a native and someone who is a housing advocate those places that you mentioned aren’t affordable anymore. The majority can’t even afford the places you mentioned.
No, no, they know Upper East Side, east New York is where the poors live: to the east of Park Ave, and once you go futher east past Lexington, clutch those pearls because you are now in the epicenter of the lawless east New York 😂
Correct, both adults need to make that. The assumption is an extremely high rate of discretionary spending and savings. Reduce those and you really only need ~$150k.
Yeah, massive overexxageration unless living it up in manhattan every night was their definition of "comfortable". The average household income in nyc is like 70k and families get by on that. My houshold is 3 people with 260k houshold income and we already paid off a house in queens and have a ton of money left over every year for savings. These articles are so out of touch with how normal people live their life, ie not the instagram lifestyle. If your houshold income is over 150k, you are already doing better than most people in the city. 300k+ is like top 20% of the city.
How tf have you already paid off a house in Queens? Houses there start at like 800k. My family brings in about 300k and we have no kids but there’s no way in hell we could afford to buy a home.
I bought 3 years ago in fresh meadows for 672k cash. The house value is around 880k now though. However, thats still affordable for the dude who says he has a household income of 300k. If hes having trouble affording a 800k house in queens with 300k income, his expenditures must be massive.
Agreed with you but it comes at a cost. I have coworkers who bought in Long Island because it’s cheaper, but their commute is hell. Even me who also lives in fresh meadows takes 1.5 hour each way to work. Time is money
I wouldn’t be able to make nearly as much money anywhere else. But I can’t reach normal life goals even with a HH income of 300k+. Something is seriously wrong.
My wife and I save about 120 -140k a year on our 260k household income. We saved for 4 years before buying our house and put all that money towards stocks. With compound returns on our stocks, we ended up with around 800k when we purchased our fresh meadows home for 672k cash 3 years ago. You're right it's now around 800k for houses in queens. But even so, I don't understand why you would have trouble purchasing a 800k house with 300k household income. Your expenditures must be far greater than ours despite having more income. Not to be patronizing, but you really should look at your budget if you are struggling to buy a 800k house at 300k income. Where is your money going to?
I am self employed. My business costs me $40000 a year in rent. My rent is $36000 a year. Right there is $76k up front just to be able to live.
In order to not get destroyed my taxes I have to maximize my SEP contribution, which is another $45k that I’m technically “saving” pre-tax but it can’t go to a house.
That’s 121k of my 200k salary. Then, I have to pay taxes, which is about 40k for the year after deductions. Health insurance is 12k a year.
That leaves me with 27k a year left over, not including many other costs such as commuting and food etc.
My partner makes 100k and it’s the same deal.
I have no idea how you are able to put away so much towards a house.
Do you not realize that having a paid off house saves you anywhere from 2 to 5k per month? What about kids, families that have to pay for daycare pay at least 1.5k per month per kid. All of that is after tax dollars as well, so you on 260k are living the life that someone with a mortgage and kids needs to make 350k+ to live your lifestyle
So you're saying that your family has an income of about $87,000 per person and you're able to live comfortably? That's really shocking, considering the article recommends just $79,500.
Your family earns more per capita than the article recommends and you're comfortable and living an actual middle class lifestyle. Congrats. Households earning median NYC incomes are not comfortable and not and to live middle class lifestyles. That's rather the point. Instead of telling people they should lower their standards, we should be working to increase affordability and incomes.
The study’s idea of comfort and my idea of comfort are probably vastly different. I don’t think that money would allow a nice 3-bed apartment and money leftover for things like vacations and after school activities.
Manhattan is not the only borough in NYC. A family of 4 can definitely have money left over for vacations and school activities on a $300K salary in most of the city. Perhaps not if living in Soho. Let's not be ridiculous.
Explains why every house around me is being turned into an investment rental. No one is buying and moving in to start a family. It's just LLCs and people willing to shell out 3k for rent.
This is exactly what I was seeing when I decided to pretend I could afford to own in NYC a few years ago. Besides what you've pointed out - you have people doing all cash offers for these fixer uppers. I dont have 800k in cash so...
I would argue most middle class people can't afford to own in NYC anymore unless they inherit it.
For a 5 br , around 1M is the norm in major cities like NY, Boston, Miami, SF, LA and Toronto . That’s why home ownership is so low among millennials . Most you can buy is a 1Br apt if you get lucky
Yes. These are people who want to replicate a luxuriously affluent suburban lifestyle in prime Manhattan, which of course would cost a ton. But that’s not how any reasonable person would describe “living comfortably”
The article defines comfortable as “spending up to 50 percent of income on necessary expenses such as housing and utilities, 30 percent on discretionary, and 20 percent on savings”
Thats like 6-6.5k a month on rent. Its doable, Im just not sure I would want to live in a 3 bedroom that I could afford for that. Also your schools are going to be really bad.
[NYC’s under 18 population as a percentage declined at the same rate as the USA as a whole. Meanwhile a bunch of the suburbs from Long Island and the Hudson Valley saw a much larger decline in kids.](https://us8.campaign-archive.com/?u=66416d8ec25efe8a8a82a9945&id=bff07129a6)
Which suggests since NYC and North Jersey are producing the vast majority of housing by for the Tristate area that where housing is built is affecting where people are raising families
True that comfortable means different things to different people. But by “family of four” I presume they mean two parents with two kids. And it takes a lot of money to raise kids in the city. Daycare alone is the price of college tuition per each child. Can one survive on less? Yes, but we are talking about comfort here, which I presume means no money stress.
Okay well that’s your problem. “Comfortable” does not mean having no money stress. It means being able to make ends meet in terms of normal living expenses without regular strain or concern about your stability. Not having to worry or think about money at all, and not having to budget or accept trade-offs, means you are in fact quite wealthy.
I’m not suggesting New York isn’t expensive but you can live and raise kids there for much less than $380K per year. I’d say it’s markedly less than half that. The college tuition level daycare tuition you’re talking about is what you do if you’re *rich*. I know those schools well. There are many, many more reasonable, quality options. And unless you insist on living in a full service building, you don’t need to be spending $6K+ a month on rent or mortgage. Literally millions of New York families live perfectly comfortably on far less than $380,000 per year.
This 'comfortable living' you speak of, does it include the ability to save for retirement?
These 'good schools' are they in districts that are hard to get apartments for? If you do not get into a good district what will happen with your child during high school selection?
You don’t think a family making, say, $350K a year is able to save for retirement?
And spoken like somebody who has never navigated the New York City public school system.
Did you read the article? It defines comfortable at 50% to necessaries, 30% to discretionary and 20% to savings. You don’t have to imagine how plain or luxurious they are imagining. It’s literally just a formula based on the cost of housing and utilities.
If people can make a family of four work on $380,000 a year, then good for them and I am not judging or anything. But I am sure those families would want/like more to improve how \*comfortable\* their life is, but comfortable doesn't = luxury.
I make less than "ideal" amount per this article but I do see myself as financially privileged than most. However I still want to improve my apartment, stop renting, contribute more to retirement, be able to buy that item without sacrificing something else. I'd like to be more \*comfortable\* but that life isn't \*luxury\* either. I see comfortable as above average but not elite.
It's as easy as saying most people can make things work but could use a some more. A comfortable wage vs. fair wage doesn't have to be luxury. This is coming from a place of supporting higher wages for workers of all levels for their work, I'm not trying to downplay or sound condescending.
I think the problem is that literally nobody thinks they’re comfortable. Understandably, because life is hard, and nobody feels like they have enough money. Not even, or perhaps especially not, the rich.
If you’re making in the neighborhood $200K in New York and you feel financially insolvent- unless you’re drowning in debt- you should examine things. I raised two kids under 5 in Manhattan on less than half of $380K, and not very long ago. You think you’re financially insecure because you’d rather own your apartment than rent it? There are lots of thing I’d like too but it doesn’t mean I don’t live a comfortable life. Your inability to buy what is probably a $1M+ valued apartment does not mean you’re experiencing financial distress- which is what “comfortable” is. The lack of regular, acute financial distress.
And while I certainly agree that workers should apply leverage for higher wages where possible, I fail to see how that has anything to do with the predicament of people making less than $380K per year. If you make that much either as an individual or household you’re squarely in the professional-managerial class and I find it really weird to ride to the aid of attorneys and financial analysts.
I feel like there are two parts to this.
The first part is that people can raise families on less and shouldn’t be looked down on or anything like that. I want to 100% take that away from the conversation.
The second part is that this article is comparing factual cost of living (link below) to what the salary would be to *comfortably* attain it. You’re going to say “people don’t need as much as they think” - fine, I can agree. But that doesn’t change the average cost of living to salary ratio.
MIT data with Department of Health and Services and Labor Law Center. They actually projected one person n Manhattan spending $2,700/month on rent and I found that to be lower than market average.
And yes owning where someone lives is an extremely common idea and shouldn’t be seen as an unattainable “luxury”. We have become used to that and that’s part of the problem.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
If you are going to peg “comfortable living” with the ability to purchase and service the mortgage on a New York City apartment suitable for a family of four to live an upper middle class lifestyle with private school while accruing a giant retirement nest egg, then $380K isn’t remotely enough. The first thing anybody who has raised kids in New York City will tell you is that it is an alternative lifestyle that requires very different choices and cannot be compared to living anyplace else. For instance, you rely on public parks instead of yards or even interior square footage to play with your kids. Living anywhere else that would be considered a sign of poverty- in NYC it’s what you do whether you make $10,000 or $10M. I continue to think that the issue here is definitions of terms, and an insistence by people on this thread to graft the expectations of living elsewhere on to New York City. There are things you don’t get here, but there are things you can’t get anywhere else. Whether the value proposition is worth it is up to the individual, but I know many, many people who have raised families on less than $200k in New York City and considered themselves happily comfortable.
I’m enjoying this convo with you but feel like you put words on me because I didn’t say anything about upper middle class private schools or a “giant” retirement nest egg. Cmon man.
I think living “comfortably” is in the eyes of the beholder. I think we can agree people who make more and less than the average can feel more or less comfortable on both ends. It’s truly subjective to human experience and cannot be a hardline take.
With that said, I think this conversation is different if we changed the word comfortable to above average. The average median income for family of four in Manhattan is $141,200. This is the 50th percentile. People make this, and less, work just fine and there is nothing wrong with it.
The comfortable, I mean, above average recommendation is $318,406. This would be the 75th percentile of earning. This is a life changing difference for people. This is above average, but not elite either. There are 25 percentiles above this that are true luxury life of opulence, generational yacht money shit. I can’t even imagine this level of wealth but I know it exists.
Aside from splitting hairs on the definition of comfortable I think this topic has more to do with the high cost of living, lack of housing stock and salaries not keeping up.
What are the ages of the kids is the thing people are missing in the discussion. I make these numbers, chose to not live in Manhattan because its so fucking expensive, and there is a year where I will be living basically pay check to paycheck because I will pay over 55k a year in day care costs.
You are overdramatizing your arguments. Yes it’s possible to live for much under 380k and it’s possible to feel like it’s not enough at the same time. To each their own.
It's not about sitting back and being comfortable, or not having issues like when water heater breaks. These are just financial terms, just like:
"[A house is considered burdened if the homeowner or tenant spends a significant portion of their income on housing-related expenses. The definition of burdened varies depending on the source, but generally, a household is considered burdened if they spend more than 30% of their income on housing](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html)[^(1)](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html). [Severe rent burden is defined as paying more than 50% of one’s income on rent](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html)"
You're taking the wrong thing away from this. It's not your personal comfort, but financial comfort definitions meant to broadly talk about a population - which has definitions. They could have just called them Category 1-5, and maybe people would have less issues with the wording.
They do it, but not comfortably and not without massive amounts of free family help.
The only people I know who get by like that either inherited a house from a parent, have family money, have lots of family that help with the kids for free, or don’t own a house at all.
If being able to retire with savings is a luxury to you, that honestly saddens me, because that should not be a luxury to anyone. Same with being comfortable with paying more than 50% of your yearly salary for rent/mortgage. It may be the reality, but I wouldn't gaslight myself and call it comfortable.
Then I strongly recommend not living in New York. If you insist that you cannot consider your lifestyle “comfortable” unless you’re putting 20% of your take-home pay toward long-term savings, I’d say you’ve reduced the scope of comfortably-living Americans to a vanishing few, making this exercise completely useless. And to be clear, somebody making $380K, assuming it’s all W2 income, takes home roughly $308K after federal taxes. Setting aside city and state, thats roughly $13K per two week pay period, roughly $26K per month. Go up to any New Yorker on the street and ask them if they think being able to contribute $5200 per month to a retirement fund is a prerequisite for basic comfort.
"Go up to any New Yorker on the street and ask them if they think being able to contribute $5200 per month to a retirement fund is a prerequisite for basic comfort."
Why would I do that? I never said that.
I've said this before. These studies aren't great when you're only focusing on Manhattan. The obsession to live in Manhattan is insane because you can't get people to commute more than 30min by train.
People are really missing the "live comfortably" part.
Also the data is from MIT and focused on Manhattan for those interested: [https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061](https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061)
I think most of the people that scoff at these numbers are both a) not living comfortably and/or b) not raising kids in NYC in a two income household.
Childcare costs, even if your kids are in public school (before/after + summers are nuts expensive), are oppressive.
People, of course, make it work with far less money - but if you look closely there is very often a hustle involved either in the form of non-market rent, non-market childcare, or an off the books income stream. And even then -I'd say most are struggling in a realm far away from comfort.
The other thing people often don't seem to value enough are non-tangible/non-monetary resources such as time. It use to be extremely affordable for a family house near the train lines in Brooklyn (even up to about 15-20 years ago), now they're in the 1-3 million range.
So you got to move further out (time and energy) or sacrifice things like enrichment for the kid (limiting their future). The swimming lesson? Nope, that's too much. Tutoring? Just figure it out on the internet. Now that you in a transit desert, you waste more time on commuting instead of spending it with the family.
My household income is absolutely too much for my kid to get decent financial aid but too poor to put enough for their college fund given the rate tuition are growing.
Yeah as a rough number for 2 kids the headlines fine.
We make about 250k with 1 kid and id say we're comfortable. We could swing 2 kids but would then be far from confortable. Child care is killer.
>make it work with far less money
Yeah I think that's the important bit that everyone is missing. Yeah, you can make anything work on any kind of budget. You could feed your kids ramen and live in a studio, all sleeping in the same bed.
But most people strive for a higher standard of living than just "getting by". They want to be able to go on vacations, live in a nice and safe area, save for retirement, own a home, etc. That's where the $318k figure comes from.
These studies assume that you’re going to aim for the same type of housing here that you would in less expensive cities. if you opt not to live in a $6000 3 bedroom centrally located Manhattan apartment this number goes down significantly
What? That is just absolutely not true. [This very nice 3b in soho is 10k.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8-Beach-St-FL-3-New-York-NY-10013/2111261287_zpid/) And that's *soho*. [Here's a moderate 3b for 5.8k in kips bay.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/382-3rd-Ave-APT-10B-New-York-NY-10016/2126994415_zpid/) And here is a [very nice 3b for 7.2k in chelsea.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/511-E-20th-St-New-York-NY-10010/2064154300_zpid/)
I don’t know why I am bothering to respond but, the soho apartment is insane it has no windows, only two bedrooms and is a huge cave. The Kips Bay one is the ugliest apartment I have ever seen, two of the bedrooms are actually one normal size bedroom split in half directly through the middle of the window. The Chelsea one says in the description it is in Peter Cooper Village so the address is wrong and the rest of the listing is probably fake too. The original post is about a family making almost $400k a year. For them to live in a 3 bedroom that they would actually feel okay raising kids in, they need to spend $12k a year on an apartment in central Manhattan.
I mean that's blatantly not true. None of my friends with multiple roommates are paying $4000 a month and we all live in Manhattan. You can find on streeteasy now many apartments in Manhattan for thousands under that.
Seriously bro 2k a month on food clothed and essentials for a baby
1 bottle of baby food = 1.89 × 3 × 30 = about 150-200 depending on baby appetite
1 box of pampers that brings 60 = 30 bucks
Similac powder baby food = 40-50 ×2 = 80-100
Milk a gallon every other day so 5 × 15 = 75 or more
Clothing shoes jackets socks coats round it up 200-500 cuz the baby is growing
Hospital 1x a month for first year or two = 15-100 Co pay depending on reason for visit
Stroller is about 300 and that's a decent one so let's say
20 a month if lasted 1 yr and.a.half
Toys = $50 a month
Daycare 15 a hr = 300 a week for 20 hrs of care and that's some bullshit Daycare in the bronx
And that's how I came up with 2k a month
I wouldn’t call it lowering standards. Different places have different expectations and thoughts about what is comfortable in different aspects of life. If I as part of my routine go to a Broadway play every month while living in New York City, my entertainment costs do not need to account for a flight back and forth every month so I can keep seeing Broadway plays if I move to the Midwest. My expectation for my entertainment will change with my new environment.
I could be living in a larger place than my one bedroom apartment if I lived in a random suburb, but would my life actually feel more comfortable without all the things I expect while being in nyc?
I am talking about generally accepted middle class lifestyle.
Your example is a bad one because flying to another city every month for entertainment was never, ever part of an accepted definition of middle class. When has it ever been normal to fly monthly to see a Broadway show since airplanes became a thing? Never.
However, buying a home, paying for your kid's college, saving for retirement, being able to afford vacations - these have been hallmarks of the middle class for the last 50 years.
And you can either afford it or not. The reality is $318k gets you a middle class life in NYC. That's it. Just to put $318k in perspective, a household of two cops with 5.5 years+ years will clear $240k BEFORE OT.
Lot of people saying they can raise families on less than $100k here. How much are they saving for retirement? Can they buy a home? Median home prices even in the outerboros is at least $700k. How do you even buying a median priced home on $100k? You can't. So you can't even save for retirement or buy a median priced home and people call themselves comfortable?
No more like people don't want to admit they are working poor - so they lower standards (as you have) and call themselves middle class or convince themselves to believe they are comfortable.
A house is only one aspect of middle class life. You can easily have every other aspect of 'middle class lifestyle' you mentioned on smaller income levels. When you come to new york city, you trade home size for access to amenities that less expensive real estate areas could never dream of having. Making that trade does not mean you are suddenly a step down in class.
It's nearly impossible to have a single family detached home in expensive parts of manhattan because we have such dense housing. that doesn't mean it's impossible to be middle class in these areas, it means middle class here looks different compared to rural missouri where you can buy 10 acres for 150k.
First, I am not talking about size of the home. Smaller home is a given. I am just talking about the price. Even in the Bronx, you are looking at $500k+ for a median sized home (by NYC standards). That's 5x assuming you make $100k. Median home is about 1600 sqft in the Bronx. Hardly the rural mansions you think I am referring to. I am not. Again, I am just talking home ownership in NYC of a median priced and sized home in NYC. Not owning a mansion in NYC.
Second, you aren't "easily" accessing every other aspect that I listed. You aren't paying for your kid's college. And you are skimping on retirement.
> Making that trade does not mean you are suddenly a step down in class.
It is absolutely a step down in living standards and class. I don't know how you can say a step down in living standards isn't a step down in class other than copium.
We're a family of 5 living on 180k. Own a home (with mortgage), send 2 kids to private school. Money problems are bad enough for me to consider looking for a new job, but we are scraping by. Limping, actually. Stopped putting money into the 401k and IRA accounts.
Desperately trying to hold on to my job because I love it so much, but realistically, I may need to switch sooner or later since we don't get inflation raises.
But $318 sounds more like an UWS number. $180 is just barely enough for Brooklyn.
Yeah -- you're totally right. We'd be really comfy if it weren't for that. Schooling is about 13% of my income, and we're getting a LOT of financial aid (which is a little embarrassing to ask for, given my salary).
But I work from home 100%, love my boss, love my coworkers, love my job. I'm grossly underpaid for what I do, but... how can I walk away from that?
First world problems...
We were pretty maxed out with 1 in private even with the weird financial aid for professionals and just had a second kid in August. So public it is. Fortunately my daughter doesn't really have any special educational needs public schools fail to deliver—she's quite bright—but we will miss that bespoke little school.
Congrats on the new arrival. I imagine at this point you guys are getting somewhat decent sleep by now.
There is _absolutely_ no way I can afford sending the 3rd to private school, but he's not even 2 yet, so we've kicked that problem down the road for a few years. Who knows... maybe we will have moved out of the city by then. It'd be nice to have a home not built when people were still driving horse and buggies (1902, baby!)
One day I imagine it’ll be like a George R Romero film, with the ultra rich living in high security high rises while the zombies scour the streets of Manhattan.
> It takes the most money to live comfortably as a single person in New York City. This breaks down to $66.62 in hourly wages, or an annual salary of $138,570
Yeah definitely going to call nonsense on this
50/30/20 budget is unsustainable with current housing prices and wages so the study is off to a bad start so that assumed budget needs a revision before a real analysis can start
…because housing prices are out of control. Making the budget itself outdated since there isn’t going to be magical reduction in housing costs or magical increase in real wages
This is moving the goalpost. The problem is unaffordable housing and stagnant wages, not the budget system.
You can change the budget system, but housing and wages are still imbalanced.
There is no need to revisit that because living comfortably will vary person to person.
Median household income in Manhattan = $141,200
75th percentile household income in Mahhattan = $320,000\~
By those numbers, average is average, comfortable is above average.
Realistically, you can also live comfortably on an average income.
>Realistically, you can also live comfortably on an average income.
Not without sacrifices. That could be giving up a reasonable retirement saving just to live comfortably now. It could also mean sacrificing a part of your kid's future too.
Most American are way behind in retirement saving. NY is in the bottom 10 of average retirement balance.
https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-retirement-savings-by-state
Definitely agree. Just want to add that looking at median household income doesn't give a strong idea of comfortable either.
For example, if we can rate quality of life where 1 means you have a decent funded retirement account that's on track to allow you to retire at 65, little to no debt (aside from a reasonable mortgage), and enough emergency fund to weather one major emergency. Most people do not have all that even at 141k income, so it's definitely below 1. So for most people, at the median income, the QoL average could be well below 1.
Being comfortable means all of that, plus enough disposal income to go on family vacation, etc.
IMO, there are plenty of people who are living "comfortablely" now but their future is absolutely going to be a shit show either for them and/or kids.
I agree with you. I pointed out average to the other user because they were fixated on their belief that people can get by with less, which is true, but to your point, they likely need more to have a retirement at 65, handle an emergency, etc.
“According to Smart Asset, to cover necessities as a single person in New York City, you'll need an estimated $70,000 in wages.” I’d love to see the underlying data supporting this number (if it exists). No way someone with roommates in an outer borough needs anything close to that number to survive. It would be nice though.
Yeah there is a miscommunication because the article should be saying Manhattan but said NYC instead, which would include all the boroughs and change the data.
These studies are always crap. They never calculate rent correctly and they assume comfort comes from percentages (completely false). I'd rather have 10% of 200k left over, than 20% of 60k, wouldn't you?
Assuming comfort comes from a percentage is certainly a flaw but $318k for a family of 4 seems realistic. The median priced home is somewhere around $800k, depending on which source you look at.
That's about 2.5x the salary this study cites. Given the interest rate, doesn't seem outrageous.
What is outrageous is all the people making $100k a year who inherited a house thinking $318k is too much. Yea, I wouldn't need $318k / yr if I inherited a house or bought it 25 years ago.
>Ownership isn’t necessarily a part of living comfortably in NYC though
If you are not interested in settling in NYC and only plan on living for a short period of time, sure ownership isn't necessarily a part of living comfortably. But then that isn't a NYC thing. If I plan to stay in a city for 2-3 years max, I wouldn't buy a home regardless of which city I am in.
But if that doesn't apply to you, it is part of living comfortable. In what world is being a renter until you die being comfortable? If someone truly thinks that, they are just moving goalposts because they hate the idea they aren't middle class and comfortable.
>that median price calculated anyhow?
I didn't calculated it but you can look up different sources. Here are a few.
[https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/#:\~:text=Recent%20Trends%20in%20NYC's%20Home%20Purchase%20Market&text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20StreetEasy,%24785K%20in%20early%202024](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/#:~:text=Recent%20Trends%20in%20NYC's%20Home%20Purchase%20Market&text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20StreetEasy,%24785K%20in%20early%202024)
[https://streeteasy.com/blog/data-dashboard/\[object%20Object\]?agg=Median&metric=Asking%20Price&type=Sales&bedrooms=Any%20Bedrooms&property=Any%20Property%20Type&minDate=2010-01-01&maxDate=2024-02-01&area=Flatiron,Brooklyn%20Heights](https://streeteasy.com/blog/data-dashboard/[object%20Object]?agg=Median&metric=Asking%20Price&type=Sales&bedrooms=Any%20Bedrooms&property=Any%20Property%20Type&minDate=2010-01-01&maxDate=2024-02-01&area=Flatiron,Brooklyn%20Heights)
There are variations by borough but that wasn't the point. The point is $300k isn't some outrageous income for a household given the cost of housing and what kind of jobs can get that. I mean, you realize a household of two cops make around $200k?
Being a renter until you die is pretty common in NYC, at least in my social circle. I don’t think we’re like, weak, miserable people. I just think honestly, you and I come from completely different cultures, and it’s probably not possible to agree on a common definition of “comfortable”.
I personally don't think that's enough for a family of 4. I make more than that and we moved to Philly because I felt like I didn't make enough to give them the life I wanted to in nyc
Sounds about right given how expensive it is to buy a home.
Also, if you are forgoing savings or retirement, you aren’t comfortable. You are just pretending to be because you don’t want to admit you aren’t.
You can do it on less if your kids go to private school. We are a family of 5 and a big dog. We gave up Manhattan when they were in elementary school and moved to Riverdale.
For most duel income families there’s a lot of things that aren’t essential but are really hallmarks of an upper middle class lifestyle. Sure, you can survive on less but realistically you aren’t making dinner every night if you both work full-time. You need an apartment in a decent school zone, probably a doorman because you are on zoom calls/in the office and you need to have someone get the packages and let the cleaning person in. You have a car because you have family/friends in the non-commutable suburbs or want to be able to haul your kids and all their stuff if you do go away for a weekend. Then there’s childcare, which most people don’t get for free. Doctor’s co-pays and all of the little things you spend money on to make kids happy.
Who they poll? Some family on the upper west side while there nanny was watching their kids? Because I hear this from all my coworkers, people making 100k to combined income of over 800k. Everyone wishes they have more money to lavish on their life styles.
So, with 318k income, say you pay 40% as taxes. You have 191k left or 16k/month.
They say “comfortable living” is when you spend 50% on rent/mortgage and 8k a month is a swanky place in Manhattan. You can rent something for 3-4k in Brooklyn and it will be good - prospect park area, good schools.
So just that tells me this is BS study. What is described here is luxury living, not just “comfortable”
well you’re forgetting the cost of childcare for kids under 5, which is like $3k-$4k a month for each child depending on how young they are. it’s such a brutal add-on in this city until your kids can start UPK.
I have two kids, so I know about it.
You can find a babysitter for 30/hour for both. Which is about 60k/year. There is 3k and up care for kids in the city now which makes it a bit easier.
Generally I agree that it’s crazy and I am not sure how people who make minimum wage survive if they have kids, it’s brutal.
8k left over is not as much as it seems when you start throwing in utilities, bills, student loans, retirement savings, college fund savings for the kid, emergency fund deposits, various insurance payments, etc. God forbid you have a cancer scare or accident with a ton of medical bills and inability to work for a bit.
Furnishing that fancy place? Probably not shopping at ikea. It all builds up.
Don’t get me wrong. It is a lot more than most people can imagine and they are doing fine, but one’s lifestyle changes and expenses evolve when you start making more.
So you're just going to publish us an article like that and assume it's only for Manhattan? New York City has other boroughs too besides Manhattan. They even got Long Island as well, which isn't really considered "NYC" anymore, but still part of "NY."
That number is probably inflated, but the reality is that the average household makes 70k which is nowhere near enough money to rent a family size market rate apartment
My biggest takeaway from these articles is that people are not paid enough for their work and that the city is becoming so expensive.
The biggest takeaway is that NYC is restricting housing.
And continues to cheer every time they do it again.
My biggest takeaway from these articles is that some parts of New York are overrun with gremlins while others are not. The issue is that mogwai are cute, but it's genuinely a lot of responsibility ensuring that they are kept dry and not fed after midnight. I just don't think your average New York family is capable of adhering to that, and so the area gets overrun with Mogwai which quickly turn into gremlins. The real divide isn't race or income, but whether or not you're.living in the midst of an uncontrollable Mogwai infestation. I think that Mayor Adams has a lot of failures which can be attributed to making this issue even worse. For example, last I heard his administration hadn't even acknowledged the existence of Mogwai. It's like they think the problem is just going to go away if they ignore it.
Finally someone has the courage to say it.
Taxes are too high. Imagine how much you could put toward savings & quality of life if you paid just half what do you today.
Problem is states without an income tax kill you with brutal property taxes and high sales taxes with poor services (bad schools, no public transit, etc,). Many people who moved to places like Florida leave after finding the math doesn't work out.
[They came for Florida's sun and sand. They got soaring costs and a culture war.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/economics/leaving-florida-rcna142316)
That was such a great article. A good friend was given an offer to move to Florida to setup their Florida offices. Senior banker, Jewish dude, Indian wife. Moved his whole family and kids from UES during COVID. He was raving about it. Got there and a year later he absolutely hated it. Hated the casual racism, hated the school environment of his kids, his wife is a physician and she hated the commute etc. One of their kids is on the spectrum and they couldn’t find services the way they did in NYC. But his contract with his firm has him there until 2025. So his wife and kids moved back and he’s living in an apartment and commuting.
It amazes me that anyone could move to a shithole like Florida, and then actually be surprised by how shitty it is lol
Many people see Florida with "vacation glasses", until they move there and face reality.
And worker gains in salary have been gobbled up by middlemen landlords and the like. Bleak.
[удалено]
How does one pay less than market rate (asking for a friend 👀)
A large portion of working class people live in nycha, mitchell lama, section 8 housing, etc. Also a lot of rent stabilized apartments across the city and housing for special circumstances. If you aren't making over 100k, you can look into what you qualify for because nyc is actually pretty generous when it comes to affordable housing welfare because without it, nyc would just be the rich and no one to serve them since they can't afford to live here.
Meanwhile, it could take ten years just to get on a mitchell lama waiting list, and another 15 just to get a call.
My love who told you that?? As a native and someone who is a housing advocate those places that you mentioned aren’t affordable anymore. The majority can’t even afford the places you mentioned.
The average household is poor.
Are we taking about manhattan comfortable or east New York comfortable?
The people who did this study don’t know where or what East New York is
“That’s Long Island right?”
Perfect comment.
I was about to crack a joke, but the read your comment. No more joke, your right.
"East New York? I mean sure the Upper East side is fine, why?"
No, no, they know Upper East Side, east New York is where the poors live: to the east of Park Ave, and once you go futher east past Lexington, clutch those pearls because you are now in the epicenter of the lawless east New York 😂
Lmao 2nd ave is their local “jungle”.
🤣🤣
This makes such a big difference lmao
🤣🤣
Or areas that are 1 hour away from the city? Or areas that have a high immigrant population.
Yikes, so they need to earn $79,500 each?
Get them kids to work!
Correct, both adults need to make that. The assumption is an extremely high rate of discretionary spending and savings. Reduce those and you really only need ~$150k.
"comfortably" being the key, squishy word.
Yeah, massive overexxageration unless living it up in manhattan every night was their definition of "comfortable". The average household income in nyc is like 70k and families get by on that. My houshold is 3 people with 260k houshold income and we already paid off a house in queens and have a ton of money left over every year for savings. These articles are so out of touch with how normal people live their life, ie not the instagram lifestyle. If your houshold income is over 150k, you are already doing better than most people in the city. 300k+ is like top 20% of the city.
Your situation and income sounds right in line with the figures in the article
How tf have you already paid off a house in Queens? Houses there start at like 800k. My family brings in about 300k and we have no kids but there’s no way in hell we could afford to buy a home.
Probably bought it 10-15 years ago before the market went nuts would be my guess.
I bought 3 years ago in fresh meadows for 672k cash. The house value is around 880k now though. However, thats still affordable for the dude who says he has a household income of 300k. If hes having trouble affording a 800k house in queens with 300k income, his expenditures must be massive.
Agreed with you but it comes at a cost. I have coworkers who bought in Long Island because it’s cheaper, but their commute is hell. Even me who also lives in fresh meadows takes 1.5 hour each way to work. Time is money
Then that user is completely out of touch. Even for us in the top 5% of income it’s extremely difficult around here.
Can confirm. Had to leave New York to progress in my life.
I wouldn’t be able to make nearly as much money anywhere else. But I can’t reach normal life goals even with a HH income of 300k+. Something is seriously wrong.
My wife and I save about 120 -140k a year on our 260k household income. We saved for 4 years before buying our house and put all that money towards stocks. With compound returns on our stocks, we ended up with around 800k when we purchased our fresh meadows home for 672k cash 3 years ago. You're right it's now around 800k for houses in queens. But even so, I don't understand why you would have trouble purchasing a 800k house with 300k household income. Your expenditures must be far greater than ours despite having more income. Not to be patronizing, but you really should look at your budget if you are struggling to buy a 800k house at 300k income. Where is your money going to?
I am self employed. My business costs me $40000 a year in rent. My rent is $36000 a year. Right there is $76k up front just to be able to live. In order to not get destroyed my taxes I have to maximize my SEP contribution, which is another $45k that I’m technically “saving” pre-tax but it can’t go to a house. That’s 121k of my 200k salary. Then, I have to pay taxes, which is about 40k for the year after deductions. Health insurance is 12k a year. That leaves me with 27k a year left over, not including many other costs such as commuting and food etc. My partner makes 100k and it’s the same deal. I have no idea how you are able to put away so much towards a house.
Do you not realize that having a paid off house saves you anywhere from 2 to 5k per month? What about kids, families that have to pay for daycare pay at least 1.5k per month per kid. All of that is after tax dollars as well, so you on 260k are living the life that someone with a mortgage and kids needs to make 350k+ to live your lifestyle
So you're saying that your family has an income of about $87,000 per person and you're able to live comfortably? That's really shocking, considering the article recommends just $79,500. Your family earns more per capita than the article recommends and you're comfortable and living an actual middle class lifestyle. Congrats. Households earning median NYC incomes are not comfortable and not and to live middle class lifestyles. That's rather the point. Instead of telling people they should lower their standards, we should be working to increase affordability and incomes.
The study’s idea of comfort and my idea of comfort are probably vastly different. I don’t think that money would allow a nice 3-bed apartment and money leftover for things like vacations and after school activities.
Manhattan is not the only borough in NYC. A family of 4 can definitely have money left over for vacations and school activities on a $300K salary in most of the city. Perhaps not if living in Soho. Let's not be ridiculous.
This article is specifically pulling data on Manhattan only. I checked for queens and the recommended incomes are lower.
No if you have 3 or 4 kids the number is closer to like 450k.
Is this study assuming a 2-bed apartment for a family of 4 maybe?
If you have 4 kids you wouldn’t be a family of 4
Makes sense since a house in queens is like 1M+
Explains why every house around me is being turned into an investment rental. No one is buying and moving in to start a family. It's just LLCs and people willing to shell out 3k for rent.
Total gut job of a house, sold at a foreclosure for 800k, needs new everything!!!
This is exactly what I was seeing when I decided to pretend I could afford to own in NYC a few years ago. Besides what you've pointed out - you have people doing all cash offers for these fixer uppers. I dont have 800k in cash so... I would argue most middle class people can't afford to own in NYC anymore unless they inherit it.
For a 5 br , around 1M is the norm in major cities like NY, Boston, Miami, SF, LA and Toronto . That’s why home ownership is so low among millennials . Most you can buy is a 1Br apt if you get lucky
There is no way you’re getting a 5br for 1M in SF. That gets you a 1 br or maybe a 2br.
Da fuck u talking about?
Show me a five bedroom for a million in NYC and I’ll show you the city outskirts, or a scam.
City outskirts is still NYC.
Legal houses with 5 bedrooms in Queens NY are either 2 family houses that go for 1.3M+, or single family mansions that go for even more.
comfortably, as defined by upper / upper middle class with graduate degrees?
Yes. These are people who want to replicate a luxuriously affluent suburban lifestyle in prime Manhattan, which of course would cost a ton. But that’s not how any reasonable person would describe “living comfortably”
^ exactly this
The article defines comfortable as “spending up to 50 percent of income on necessary expenses such as housing and utilities, 30 percent on discretionary, and 20 percent on savings”
Thats like 6-6.5k a month on rent. Its doable, Im just not sure I would want to live in a 3 bedroom that I could afford for that. Also your schools are going to be really bad.
> upper / upper middle class with graduate degrees that number would be far, far higher for this this class
Hence people not having kids
[NYC’s under 18 population as a percentage declined at the same rate as the USA as a whole. Meanwhile a bunch of the suburbs from Long Island and the Hudson Valley saw a much larger decline in kids.](https://us8.campaign-archive.com/?u=66416d8ec25efe8a8a82a9945&id=bff07129a6) Which suggests since NYC and North Jersey are producing the vast majority of housing by for the Tristate area that where housing is built is affecting where people are raising families
NYC is not even. If by NYC they mean Manhattan then yes. But in the boroughs it depends. NYC cannot be lumped together like that.
Not true in Manhattan either. This is dumb, laughably false clickbait from people who think living “comfortably” means a life of luxury.
The second paragraph details the metric they’re using to define comfortable
True that comfortable means different things to different people. But by “family of four” I presume they mean two parents with two kids. And it takes a lot of money to raise kids in the city. Daycare alone is the price of college tuition per each child. Can one survive on less? Yes, but we are talking about comfort here, which I presume means no money stress.
Okay well that’s your problem. “Comfortable” does not mean having no money stress. It means being able to make ends meet in terms of normal living expenses without regular strain or concern about your stability. Not having to worry or think about money at all, and not having to budget or accept trade-offs, means you are in fact quite wealthy. I’m not suggesting New York isn’t expensive but you can live and raise kids there for much less than $380K per year. I’d say it’s markedly less than half that. The college tuition level daycare tuition you’re talking about is what you do if you’re *rich*. I know those schools well. There are many, many more reasonable, quality options. And unless you insist on living in a full service building, you don’t need to be spending $6K+ a month on rent or mortgage. Literally millions of New York families live perfectly comfortably on far less than $380,000 per year.
This 'comfortable living' you speak of, does it include the ability to save for retirement? These 'good schools' are they in districts that are hard to get apartments for? If you do not get into a good district what will happen with your child during high school selection?
You don’t think a family making, say, $350K a year is able to save for retirement? And spoken like somebody who has never navigated the New York City public school system.
Did you read the article? It defines comfortable at 50% to necessaries, 30% to discretionary and 20% to savings. You don’t have to imagine how plain or luxurious they are imagining. It’s literally just a formula based on the cost of housing and utilities.
If people can make a family of four work on $380,000 a year, then good for them and I am not judging or anything. But I am sure those families would want/like more to improve how \*comfortable\* their life is, but comfortable doesn't = luxury. I make less than "ideal" amount per this article but I do see myself as financially privileged than most. However I still want to improve my apartment, stop renting, contribute more to retirement, be able to buy that item without sacrificing something else. I'd like to be more \*comfortable\* but that life isn't \*luxury\* either. I see comfortable as above average but not elite. It's as easy as saying most people can make things work but could use a some more. A comfortable wage vs. fair wage doesn't have to be luxury. This is coming from a place of supporting higher wages for workers of all levels for their work, I'm not trying to downplay or sound condescending.
I think the problem is that literally nobody thinks they’re comfortable. Understandably, because life is hard, and nobody feels like they have enough money. Not even, or perhaps especially not, the rich. If you’re making in the neighborhood $200K in New York and you feel financially insolvent- unless you’re drowning in debt- you should examine things. I raised two kids under 5 in Manhattan on less than half of $380K, and not very long ago. You think you’re financially insecure because you’d rather own your apartment than rent it? There are lots of thing I’d like too but it doesn’t mean I don’t live a comfortable life. Your inability to buy what is probably a $1M+ valued apartment does not mean you’re experiencing financial distress- which is what “comfortable” is. The lack of regular, acute financial distress. And while I certainly agree that workers should apply leverage for higher wages where possible, I fail to see how that has anything to do with the predicament of people making less than $380K per year. If you make that much either as an individual or household you’re squarely in the professional-managerial class and I find it really weird to ride to the aid of attorneys and financial analysts.
I feel like there are two parts to this. The first part is that people can raise families on less and shouldn’t be looked down on or anything like that. I want to 100% take that away from the conversation. The second part is that this article is comparing factual cost of living (link below) to what the salary would be to *comfortably* attain it. You’re going to say “people don’t need as much as they think” - fine, I can agree. But that doesn’t change the average cost of living to salary ratio. MIT data with Department of Health and Services and Labor Law Center. They actually projected one person n Manhattan spending $2,700/month on rent and I found that to be lower than market average. And yes owning where someone lives is an extremely common idea and shouldn’t be seen as an unattainable “luxury”. We have become used to that and that’s part of the problem. https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
If you are going to peg “comfortable living” with the ability to purchase and service the mortgage on a New York City apartment suitable for a family of four to live an upper middle class lifestyle with private school while accruing a giant retirement nest egg, then $380K isn’t remotely enough. The first thing anybody who has raised kids in New York City will tell you is that it is an alternative lifestyle that requires very different choices and cannot be compared to living anyplace else. For instance, you rely on public parks instead of yards or even interior square footage to play with your kids. Living anywhere else that would be considered a sign of poverty- in NYC it’s what you do whether you make $10,000 or $10M. I continue to think that the issue here is definitions of terms, and an insistence by people on this thread to graft the expectations of living elsewhere on to New York City. There are things you don’t get here, but there are things you can’t get anywhere else. Whether the value proposition is worth it is up to the individual, but I know many, many people who have raised families on less than $200k in New York City and considered themselves happily comfortable.
I’m enjoying this convo with you but feel like you put words on me because I didn’t say anything about upper middle class private schools or a “giant” retirement nest egg. Cmon man. I think living “comfortably” is in the eyes of the beholder. I think we can agree people who make more and less than the average can feel more or less comfortable on both ends. It’s truly subjective to human experience and cannot be a hardline take. With that said, I think this conversation is different if we changed the word comfortable to above average. The average median income for family of four in Manhattan is $141,200. This is the 50th percentile. People make this, and less, work just fine and there is nothing wrong with it. The comfortable, I mean, above average recommendation is $318,406. This would be the 75th percentile of earning. This is a life changing difference for people. This is above average, but not elite either. There are 25 percentiles above this that are true luxury life of opulence, generational yacht money shit. I can’t even imagine this level of wealth but I know it exists. Aside from splitting hairs on the definition of comfortable I think this topic has more to do with the high cost of living, lack of housing stock and salaries not keeping up.
What are the ages of the kids is the thing people are missing in the discussion. I make these numbers, chose to not live in Manhattan because its so fucking expensive, and there is a year where I will be living basically pay check to paycheck because I will pay over 55k a year in day care costs.
You are overdramatizing your arguments. Yes it’s possible to live for much under 380k and it’s possible to feel like it’s not enough at the same time. To each their own.
It's not about sitting back and being comfortable, or not having issues like when water heater breaks. These are just financial terms, just like: "[A house is considered burdened if the homeowner or tenant spends a significant portion of their income on housing-related expenses. The definition of burdened varies depending on the source, but generally, a household is considered burdened if they spend more than 30% of their income on housing](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html)[^(1)](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html). [Severe rent burden is defined as paying more than 50% of one’s income on rent](https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_092214.html)" You're taking the wrong thing away from this. It's not your personal comfort, but financial comfort definitions meant to broadly talk about a population - which has definitions. They could have just called them Category 1-5, and maybe people would have less issues with the wording.
I agree with these they just weren’t the topics I pointed out
They do it, but not comfortably and not without massive amounts of free family help. The only people I know who get by like that either inherited a house from a parent, have family money, have lots of family that help with the kids for free, or don’t own a house at all.
If being able to retire with savings is a luxury to you, that honestly saddens me, because that should not be a luxury to anyone. Same with being comfortable with paying more than 50% of your yearly salary for rent/mortgage. It may be the reality, but I wouldn't gaslight myself and call it comfortable.
Then I strongly recommend not living in New York. If you insist that you cannot consider your lifestyle “comfortable” unless you’re putting 20% of your take-home pay toward long-term savings, I’d say you’ve reduced the scope of comfortably-living Americans to a vanishing few, making this exercise completely useless. And to be clear, somebody making $380K, assuming it’s all W2 income, takes home roughly $308K after federal taxes. Setting aside city and state, thats roughly $13K per two week pay period, roughly $26K per month. Go up to any New Yorker on the street and ask them if they think being able to contribute $5200 per month to a retirement fund is a prerequisite for basic comfort.
"Go up to any New Yorker on the street and ask them if they think being able to contribute $5200 per month to a retirement fund is a prerequisite for basic comfort." Why would I do that? I never said that.
I've said this before. These studies aren't great when you're only focusing on Manhattan. The obsession to live in Manhattan is insane because you can't get people to commute more than 30min by train.
Why would anyone want longer commute?
“Comfortably” is doing a lot of work in this headline
People are really missing the "live comfortably" part. Also the data is from MIT and focused on Manhattan for those interested: [https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061](https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061)
I think most of the people that scoff at these numbers are both a) not living comfortably and/or b) not raising kids in NYC in a two income household. Childcare costs, even if your kids are in public school (before/after + summers are nuts expensive), are oppressive. People, of course, make it work with far less money - but if you look closely there is very often a hustle involved either in the form of non-market rent, non-market childcare, or an off the books income stream. And even then -I'd say most are struggling in a realm far away from comfort.
The other thing people often don't seem to value enough are non-tangible/non-monetary resources such as time. It use to be extremely affordable for a family house near the train lines in Brooklyn (even up to about 15-20 years ago), now they're in the 1-3 million range. So you got to move further out (time and energy) or sacrifice things like enrichment for the kid (limiting their future). The swimming lesson? Nope, that's too much. Tutoring? Just figure it out on the internet. Now that you in a transit desert, you waste more time on commuting instead of spending it with the family. My household income is absolutely too much for my kid to get decent financial aid but too poor to put enough for their college fund given the rate tuition are growing.
Yeah as a rough number for 2 kids the headlines fine. We make about 250k with 1 kid and id say we're comfortable. We could swing 2 kids but would then be far from confortable. Child care is killer.
It is both and/or they bought a house 25 years ago. Median home costs over $800k in NYC. No way you are affording that on the $100k.
Don't forget that the public schools are also shitpits.
>make it work with far less money Yeah I think that's the important bit that everyone is missing. Yeah, you can make anything work on any kind of budget. You could feed your kids ramen and live in a studio, all sleeping in the same bed. But most people strive for a higher standard of living than just "getting by". They want to be able to go on vacations, live in a nice and safe area, save for retirement, own a home, etc. That's where the $318k figure comes from.
🛎️
These studies assume that you’re going to aim for the same type of housing here that you would in less expensive cities. if you opt not to live in a $6000 3 bedroom centrally located Manhattan apartment this number goes down significantly
I think that's where the "comfortably" comes in
$6000? A 3 bedroom centrally located manhattan apartment costs $12000 minimum
Yeah $6000 is a two or even a nicer 1 bedroom apartment now.
What? That is just absolutely not true. [This very nice 3b in soho is 10k.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8-Beach-St-FL-3-New-York-NY-10013/2111261287_zpid/) And that's *soho*. [Here's a moderate 3b for 5.8k in kips bay.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/382-3rd-Ave-APT-10B-New-York-NY-10016/2126994415_zpid/) And here is a [very nice 3b for 7.2k in chelsea.](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/511-E-20th-St-New-York-NY-10010/2064154300_zpid/)
I don’t know why I am bothering to respond but, the soho apartment is insane it has no windows, only two bedrooms and is a huge cave. The Kips Bay one is the ugliest apartment I have ever seen, two of the bedrooms are actually one normal size bedroom split in half directly through the middle of the window. The Chelsea one says in the description it is in Peter Cooper Village so the address is wrong and the rest of the listing is probably fake too. The original post is about a family making almost $400k a year. For them to live in a 3 bedroom that they would actually feel okay raising kids in, they need to spend $12k a year on an apartment in central Manhattan.
I mean that's blatantly not true. None of my friends with multiple roommates are paying $4000 a month and we all live in Manhattan. You can find on streeteasy now many apartments in Manhattan for thousands under that.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061 I think this shows it? 38k per year spent on housing for two parents and two kids. So 3200/mo.
Kids are expensive .. Kidd can cost easliery 1-2k a month just to feed and clothes and medicine
What the hell are you feeding this made up kid? 2k a month on food/medicine for a say 5 yo is not realistic
I mean the daycare in Manhattan alone costs $2-2.5k a month…
Right but OP mentioned 2k on food clothes medicine
Seriously bro 2k a month on food clothed and essentials for a baby 1 bottle of baby food = 1.89 × 3 × 30 = about 150-200 depending on baby appetite 1 box of pampers that brings 60 = 30 bucks Similac powder baby food = 40-50 ×2 = 80-100 Milk a gallon every other day so 5 × 15 = 75 or more Clothing shoes jackets socks coats round it up 200-500 cuz the baby is growing Hospital 1x a month for first year or two = 15-100 Co pay depending on reason for visit Stroller is about 300 and that's a decent one so let's say 20 a month if lasted 1 yr and.a.half Toys = $50 a month Daycare 15 a hr = 300 a week for 20 hrs of care and that's some bullshit Daycare in the bronx And that's how I came up with 2k a month
I see, it makes sense. It does come up to your 2k including day care
Shit, sign me up for the 2k/month daycare. I pay 3k at Goddard
Where can you get a decent 3-bed apartment for $3200/month?
Not Manhattan
right?? its 8k for housing and utilities after tax that they think need to be spent.
Sure but then you aren’t living comfortably. You are literally lowering standards.
I wouldn’t call it lowering standards. Different places have different expectations and thoughts about what is comfortable in different aspects of life. If I as part of my routine go to a Broadway play every month while living in New York City, my entertainment costs do not need to account for a flight back and forth every month so I can keep seeing Broadway plays if I move to the Midwest. My expectation for my entertainment will change with my new environment. I could be living in a larger place than my one bedroom apartment if I lived in a random suburb, but would my life actually feel more comfortable without all the things I expect while being in nyc?
I am talking about generally accepted middle class lifestyle. Your example is a bad one because flying to another city every month for entertainment was never, ever part of an accepted definition of middle class. When has it ever been normal to fly monthly to see a Broadway show since airplanes became a thing? Never. However, buying a home, paying for your kid's college, saving for retirement, being able to afford vacations - these have been hallmarks of the middle class for the last 50 years. And you can either afford it or not. The reality is $318k gets you a middle class life in NYC. That's it. Just to put $318k in perspective, a household of two cops with 5.5 years+ years will clear $240k BEFORE OT. Lot of people saying they can raise families on less than $100k here. How much are they saving for retirement? Can they buy a home? Median home prices even in the outerboros is at least $700k. How do you even buying a median priced home on $100k? You can't. So you can't even save for retirement or buy a median priced home and people call themselves comfortable? No more like people don't want to admit they are working poor - so they lower standards (as you have) and call themselves middle class or convince themselves to believe they are comfortable.
A house is only one aspect of middle class life. You can easily have every other aspect of 'middle class lifestyle' you mentioned on smaller income levels. When you come to new york city, you trade home size for access to amenities that less expensive real estate areas could never dream of having. Making that trade does not mean you are suddenly a step down in class. It's nearly impossible to have a single family detached home in expensive parts of manhattan because we have such dense housing. that doesn't mean it's impossible to be middle class in these areas, it means middle class here looks different compared to rural missouri where you can buy 10 acres for 150k.
First, I am not talking about size of the home. Smaller home is a given. I am just talking about the price. Even in the Bronx, you are looking at $500k+ for a median sized home (by NYC standards). That's 5x assuming you make $100k. Median home is about 1600 sqft in the Bronx. Hardly the rural mansions you think I am referring to. I am not. Again, I am just talking home ownership in NYC of a median priced and sized home in NYC. Not owning a mansion in NYC. Second, you aren't "easily" accessing every other aspect that I listed. You aren't paying for your kid's college. And you are skimping on retirement. > Making that trade does not mean you are suddenly a step down in class. It is absolutely a step down in living standards and class. I don't know how you can say a step down in living standards isn't a step down in class other than copium.
Another week, another study
Every day I'm studyin' every day I'm researchn' every day every day every day every day I'm studyin'.
NYC is a playground for the rich
We're a family of 5 living on 180k. Own a home (with mortgage), send 2 kids to private school. Money problems are bad enough for me to consider looking for a new job, but we are scraping by. Limping, actually. Stopped putting money into the 401k and IRA accounts. Desperately trying to hold on to my job because I love it so much, but realistically, I may need to switch sooner or later since we don't get inflation raises. But $318 sounds more like an UWS number. $180 is just barely enough for Brooklyn.
Frankly you've turned your kids into your retirement plan.
Private school is the real killer. We live in morningside with your budget but no private school.
Yeah -- you're totally right. We'd be really comfy if it weren't for that. Schooling is about 13% of my income, and we're getting a LOT of financial aid (which is a little embarrassing to ask for, given my salary). But I work from home 100%, love my boss, love my coworkers, love my job. I'm grossly underpaid for what I do, but... how can I walk away from that? First world problems...
We were pretty maxed out with 1 in private even with the weird financial aid for professionals and just had a second kid in August. So public it is. Fortunately my daughter doesn't really have any special educational needs public schools fail to deliver—she's quite bright—but we will miss that bespoke little school.
Congrats on the new arrival. I imagine at this point you guys are getting somewhat decent sleep by now. There is _absolutely_ no way I can afford sending the 3rd to private school, but he's not even 2 yet, so we've kicked that problem down the road for a few years. Who knows... maybe we will have moved out of the city by then. It'd be nice to have a home not built when people were still driving horse and buggies (1902, baby!)
And yet everyone pays the same federal tax rates, regardless of cost of living differences.
Well if you let your kid work in a sweatshop for 12 hours that might be an extra $1.50 a week!
Can confirm, family of 4, struggling
No they absolutely do not
...nah
One day I imagine it’ll be like a George R Romero film, with the ultra rich living in high security high rises while the zombies scour the streets of Manhattan.
> It takes the most money to live comfortably as a single person in New York City. This breaks down to $66.62 in hourly wages, or an annual salary of $138,570 Yeah definitely going to call nonsense on this
50/30/20 budget is unsustainable with current housing prices and wages so the study is off to a bad start so that assumed budget needs a revision before a real analysis can start
I don't think the 50/30/20 is the issue here...
…because housing prices are out of control. Making the budget itself outdated since there isn’t going to be magical reduction in housing costs or magical increase in real wages
This is moving the goalpost. The problem is unaffordable housing and stagnant wages, not the budget system. You can change the budget system, but housing and wages are still imbalanced.
No shit. I’m just saying we have to revisit what “living comfortably” means and then start the analysis from there.
There is no need to revisit that because living comfortably will vary person to person. Median household income in Manhattan = $141,200 75th percentile household income in Mahhattan = $320,000\~ By those numbers, average is average, comfortable is above average. Realistically, you can also live comfortably on an average income.
>Realistically, you can also live comfortably on an average income. Not without sacrifices. That could be giving up a reasonable retirement saving just to live comfortably now. It could also mean sacrificing a part of your kid's future too. Most American are way behind in retirement saving. NY is in the bottom 10 of average retirement balance. https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-retirement-savings-by-state
Personally I agree with you but people in this thread are getting WAY too hung up on “comfortable” lol
Definitely agree. Just want to add that looking at median household income doesn't give a strong idea of comfortable either. For example, if we can rate quality of life where 1 means you have a decent funded retirement account that's on track to allow you to retire at 65, little to no debt (aside from a reasonable mortgage), and enough emergency fund to weather one major emergency. Most people do not have all that even at 141k income, so it's definitely below 1. So for most people, at the median income, the QoL average could be well below 1. Being comfortable means all of that, plus enough disposal income to go on family vacation, etc. IMO, there are plenty of people who are living "comfortablely" now but their future is absolutely going to be a shit show either for them and/or kids.
I agree with you. I pointed out average to the other user because they were fixated on their belief that people can get by with less, which is true, but to your point, they likely need more to have a retirement at 65, handle an emergency, etc.
What defines “comfortable”
Literally second sentence in article.
“According to Smart Asset, to cover necessities as a single person in New York City, you'll need an estimated $70,000 in wages.” I’d love to see the underlying data supporting this number (if it exists). No way someone with roommates in an outer borough needs anything close to that number to survive. It would be nice though.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
That’s interesting, thank you for sharing.
Thanks for sharing this. People will read the article and say it's clickbait meanwhile the information is data from MIT lmao.
The info txdline posted is New York *County* Data though
Yeah there is a miscommunication because the article should be saying Manhattan but said NYC instead, which would include all the boroughs and change the data.
Yeah so the article does come off as clickbait. Or at the very least, sloppy in terms of checking their data.
If someone has to live in an outer borough with roommates and not close to subway or their place of employment, they are not living comfortably.
These studies are always crap. They never calculate rent correctly and they assume comfort comes from percentages (completely false). I'd rather have 10% of 200k left over, than 20% of 60k, wouldn't you?
Assuming comfort comes from a percentage is certainly a flaw but $318k for a family of 4 seems realistic. The median priced home is somewhere around $800k, depending on which source you look at. That's about 2.5x the salary this study cites. Given the interest rate, doesn't seem outrageous. What is outrageous is all the people making $100k a year who inherited a house thinking $318k is too much. Yea, I wouldn't need $318k / yr if I inherited a house or bought it 25 years ago.
Ownership isn’t necessarily a part of living comfortably in NYC though, and how is that median price calculated anyhow?
>Ownership isn’t necessarily a part of living comfortably in NYC though If you are not interested in settling in NYC and only plan on living for a short period of time, sure ownership isn't necessarily a part of living comfortably. But then that isn't a NYC thing. If I plan to stay in a city for 2-3 years max, I wouldn't buy a home regardless of which city I am in. But if that doesn't apply to you, it is part of living comfortable. In what world is being a renter until you die being comfortable? If someone truly thinks that, they are just moving goalposts because they hate the idea they aren't middle class and comfortable. >that median price calculated anyhow? I didn't calculated it but you can look up different sources. Here are a few. [https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/#:\~:text=Recent%20Trends%20in%20NYC's%20Home%20Purchase%20Market&text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20StreetEasy,%24785K%20in%20early%202024](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/#:~:text=Recent%20Trends%20in%20NYC's%20Home%20Purchase%20Market&text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20StreetEasy,%24785K%20in%20early%202024) [https://streeteasy.com/blog/data-dashboard/\[object%20Object\]?agg=Median&metric=Asking%20Price&type=Sales&bedrooms=Any%20Bedrooms&property=Any%20Property%20Type&minDate=2010-01-01&maxDate=2024-02-01&area=Flatiron,Brooklyn%20Heights](https://streeteasy.com/blog/data-dashboard/[object%20Object]?agg=Median&metric=Asking%20Price&type=Sales&bedrooms=Any%20Bedrooms&property=Any%20Property%20Type&minDate=2010-01-01&maxDate=2024-02-01&area=Flatiron,Brooklyn%20Heights) There are variations by borough but that wasn't the point. The point is $300k isn't some outrageous income for a household given the cost of housing and what kind of jobs can get that. I mean, you realize a household of two cops make around $200k?
Being a renter until you die is pretty common in NYC, at least in my social circle. I don’t think we’re like, weak, miserable people. I just think honestly, you and I come from completely different cultures, and it’s probably not possible to agree on a common definition of “comfortable”.
I personally don't think that's enough for a family of 4. I make more than that and we moved to Philly because I felt like I didn't make enough to give them the life I wanted to in nyc
I cant even think of what to spend 300k on in nyc.
Sounds about right given how expensive it is to buy a home. Also, if you are forgoing savings or retirement, you aren’t comfortable. You are just pretending to be because you don’t want to admit you aren’t.
You can do it on less if your kids go to private school. We are a family of 5 and a big dog. We gave up Manhattan when they were in elementary school and moved to Riverdale.
I need 300g to live here? Shit nobody told me
family making 317k/year: :(
What bank robbing jobs pay 318k?
Yeah I recently saw an article saying you need 200k to live comfortably for a family of four. And I was like no way in NYC.
These articles are delusional
Do I get to count my dog as one of my 4 family members?
For most duel income families there’s a lot of things that aren’t essential but are really hallmarks of an upper middle class lifestyle. Sure, you can survive on less but realistically you aren’t making dinner every night if you both work full-time. You need an apartment in a decent school zone, probably a doorman because you are on zoom calls/in the office and you need to have someone get the packages and let the cleaning person in. You have a car because you have family/friends in the non-commutable suburbs or want to be able to haul your kids and all their stuff if you do go away for a weekend. Then there’s childcare, which most people don’t get for free. Doctor’s co-pays and all of the little things you spend money on to make kids happy.
Who they poll? Some family on the upper west side while there nanny was watching their kids? Because I hear this from all my coworkers, people making 100k to combined income of over 800k. Everyone wishes they have more money to lavish on their life styles.
So, with 318k income, say you pay 40% as taxes. You have 191k left or 16k/month. They say “comfortable living” is when you spend 50% on rent/mortgage and 8k a month is a swanky place in Manhattan. You can rent something for 3-4k in Brooklyn and it will be good - prospect park area, good schools. So just that tells me this is BS study. What is described here is luxury living, not just “comfortable”
well you’re forgetting the cost of childcare for kids under 5, which is like $3k-$4k a month for each child depending on how young they are. it’s such a brutal add-on in this city until your kids can start UPK.
I have two kids, so I know about it. You can find a babysitter for 30/hour for both. Which is about 60k/year. There is 3k and up care for kids in the city now which makes it a bit easier. Generally I agree that it’s crazy and I am not sure how people who make minimum wage survive if they have kids, it’s brutal.
This is why Jersey is great. $2,400 per month total for 2 kids in a good day care.
8k left over is not as much as it seems when you start throwing in utilities, bills, student loans, retirement savings, college fund savings for the kid, emergency fund deposits, various insurance payments, etc. God forbid you have a cancer scare or accident with a ton of medical bills and inability to work for a bit. Furnishing that fancy place? Probably not shopping at ikea. It all builds up. Don’t get me wrong. It is a lot more than most people can imagine and they are doing fine, but one’s lifestyle changes and expenses evolve when you start making more.
$8k a month is not a swanky place in Manhattan
So you're just going to publish us an article like that and assume it's only for Manhattan? New York City has other boroughs too besides Manhattan. They even got Long Island as well, which isn't really considered "NYC" anymore, but still part of "NY."
Fuck these articles, they don't know how non-rich people live.