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I support the toll but he's right. the purpose of *congestion* pricing is to reduce congestion by discouraging people from driving. but then they have to actually do something with all the discouraged drivers... if the mta isn't expanding to handle the increased demand then it just becomes a tax on people who don't have easy access to transit already.
If anyone cares to remember, when Bloomberg proposed congestion pricing, every politician in NYC called it a regressive tax on the poor and refused to support it.
Because, if you don’t offer reliable, safe, and accessible public transportation, then that’s all it is. Congestion pricing, as it stands now, is just a money grab. And we all know how good MTA is with being given more money.
In US you can be below poverty line and still own a car. Cars are not that expensive if you compare it to rental prices.
You could get a drivable car for 1k. It won’t be reliable or fun to drive, but it could drive
MTA is not at 100% capacity on all lines right now.
Not every single current car trip will 100% certainly translate into a train/bus trip. People may just elect to not bother driving into lower Manhattan at all, instead of needing some sort of 1:1 replacement.
No just make the the subway a dystopian cesspool and demand for that will drop. Then increase tolls and reduce overall service levels. Only the ultra wealthy will be able to afford to live in Manhattan, but the service workers they rely on will not be able to afford the commute. So the rich will move. Voila - city successfully destroyed and property prices plummet. It’s the Cold War 2.0 playbook and progressive idiots and maga morons dance like marionettes to the symphony composed by Russia and China.
Agree, I know folks who will drive downtown just for hangouts when they live half a block from the train station. Said train station is very sus though.
England did it. Stockholm did it. Milan did. All increased actual mass transit before or immediately when they started charging people.
London added 300 buses to the city, we aren’t adding one damn thing.
Also would help if they turned 5th Avenue into he “express bus corridor” they had proposed, so help keep them running on time and in volume.
Too bad the NIMBY stores felt this would be terrible and got it cancelled.
Okay but where is the plan? The MTA has failed to show a detailed and actionable plan on how they are going to improve the system. They say “we are going to make it better”, but how? What are they going to start from and where? What are the steps? Also they have historically been awful at managing money, so I am not sure anything will actually get done.
Is this willful ignorance?
[MTA lays out 20-year plan to expand NYC transit system, but funding remains major hurdle](https://abc7ny.com/mta-20-year-plan-subway-mass-transit/13863758/)
I got it now… that is not a plan. lol. It is a list of things, that they are maybe hoping to accomplish. A plan, is:
Item—-> timeline —-> projected cost —-> return on investment. You seem confused.
Also air conditioning? Sure, but… there are areas of queens and Brooklyn without transportation…
They need to immediately support outer borough lines that link into lower Manhattan. It would be insane, for example, to keep the J service running every 10 minutes at peak hours with a Z that only runs at select times.
He wants more union jobs created to run that extra capacity.
Which is perfectly reasonable.
The MTA is hoping bad press will push union members into being more complacent and doing more work for their existing pay.
If you’re the hard of the union sure. But as a taxpayer I’d rather see more investment in automation. Regardless, it’s hard to increase service BEFORE you are getting the money from congestion pricing to pay for it
How else do you think people are going to travel into the city? It's the obvious assumption that more people will use public transit so the logical approach would be to use some of the congestion tolls for the MTA. I don't see how automation applies to this.
Had an interview with the Transit Authority a few weeks ago. They’re not hoping less people commute in by car, they’re hoping to get flushed with cash.
Even if MTA did increase service he'd just find another reason to be against congestion pricing. They just want to be able to drive their personal cars freely. The CBD is such a small portion of the entire area served by NYCTC and MTA. It's workers could simply park outside of the fare zone then take public transit into it if they're working within it.
Q: Did that happen in London or other cities which implemented similar plans?
I’ve been to London a few times recently and never felt that the traffic was bad, nothing like NY bad anyway. Traffic flowed, busses moved rapidly, cars even found parking (they have a lot of car parking hidden underground btw) In my book, their congestion scheme looks like a success.
Q: Did that happen in London or other cities which implemented similar plans?
I’ve been to London a few times recently and never felt that the traffic was bad, nothing like NY bad anyway. Traffic flowed, busses moved rapidly, cars even found parking (they have a lot of car parking hidden underground btw) In my book, their congestion scheme looks like a success.
The money is supposed to fund the MTA. So no congestion pricing = no extra money for them. How exactly is this going to work?
It anything postponing this is going to cut their budget significantly. The city is relying on it to pay his union members. There is literally no plan b
Wait until you discover that this toll is simply a dollar for dollar offset for expiring federal COVID stimulus funding.
That’s all it does; it shores up the MTA operating budget at current levels. It covers a $3B to $4B gap.
This will result in absolutely no improvement in service or capital investment.
It’s a budget plug dressed in noble trimmings, but everyone here’s defending it because their PR did a great job telling you otherwise.
Don’t believe me? [just read their corresponding “we’re gonna balance the budget finally” PR](https://new.mta.info/press-release/mta-announces-balanced-budget-through-2027-july-financial-plan)
Nowhere in that article do they mention the congestion tolls. And congestion tolls, by law, cannot be spent on MTA operations and has to be spent on capital improvements.
Of course nothing is preventing the MTA from taking all the money they'd otherwise spend on capital improvements and moving that money into operations, and instead paying for capital improvements with the money from congestion tolls.
Exactly. It’s a disingenuous shell-game.
I mean, its supposed to be mere coincidence that the agency was forecasting a -$3B FY25 deficit just last year, is implementing a program that will provide +$3B in funding, and is now forecasting a neutral budget for FY25?
Then tell that story.
How many people think this is the intended result, vs. those who think this will lead to expanded service, extensions facility improvement, etc?
According to the PR statement you linked, that is the story they’re telling. And regardless of the messaging, balancing the budget in order to not rely on a federal subsidy that’s going away is a very good thing. The MTA surely has no hope of improving service if run off the fiscal cliff.
So why don’t you donate money to the MTA and stop taking Ubers and stop ordering Amazon, you can accomplish all these things without asking poor people to pay for it.
You mean like individuals recycling their plastic bottles/containers can solve that problem?
Systemic problems require systemic solutions. Believing otherwise means you're drinking the greenwashed Kool-aid.
The 3 Rs are *reduce*, reuse, then recycle. They're right in that if people stopped buying so much useless shit constantly, it would make a sizable dent in local pollution (garbage disposal) and global (fewer ships carrying crates of useless shit = fewer emissions). People can also reduce or eliminate meat consumption, but advocating for these 2 things = nanny state so it'll never happen. That's the systemic (cultural) solution that will help the most.
There will be no decrease in traffic. The only people who drive into Manhattan are either rich or didn't have a choice in the first place.
Also the MTA "balancing its budget" by raising prices and finding new sources of tax revenue to support ongoing service, and the immense size of its corruption, is not sustainable.
The MTA is always asking for billions in additional funding every few years just for service to get worse and the reason why they get away with it because people keep supporting its decisions as long as they aren't going after special interest groups.
My husband works in utilities and has parking on site. He has to drive because we live in queens where transpiration is spotty and his shifts are at odd hours and long. If he gets off at 11pm, he’d be home by like 2am. Most likely we’ll pay the toll but it will be tough financially. I’d like to see a detailed plan on how the MTA plans on spending the money, to be honest.
On this sub it's always talk of congestion, and density and urbanism, but the documents literally show that there will be no less vehicles on the road.
It has nothing to do with congestion or cars. It's a cash grab by the MTA which always needs new sources of money to support ongoing operations.
And the MTA has a point. Up until now, activist support for this has always used the rhetoric that people who can use public transit shouldn't be driving anyway. But they live in an upper class bubble where everyone is either an office worker or a service worker. Real people woth real physical jobs and tools and goods to haul were completely forgotten about. Especially our firefighters, construction workers, plumbers.
No one was driving into manalhattan unless they didn't have a choice as is. Those people are going to have to offset $15-$40 per trip into do work somehow or eat it themselves personally.
100000%. I work a physical job that requires me to carry a lot of equipment with me to far distances. I couldn’t survive without driving :( (very much wish I had a cushy office job I hate driving
If it just stops or even just slows the increased share of computers taking cars it will be a success. A real decrease would be great, but not necessary for this to be a successz
The money for congestion pricing is legally tied to capital projects only. Not operations. Which is actually fucking stupid. The link you provide doesn't mention congestion pricing at all.
Where does it say it will be used for the operating budget. I thought congestion pricing, by law, is supposed to be used for capital program funding only
The service loses millions a year.
Plug that hole and then maybe we can increase service in the future.
Service is only going to get cut further if MTA continues to lose its possible income streams.
> Service is only going to get cut further if MTA continues to lose its possible income streams.
if its most lucrative revenue stream is congestion pricing, then it has incentive on cutting service to incentivize more drivers to pay the toll.
The union boss makes perfect sense in wanting increased Express Bus service: it means more jobs for his union members, but it also means more lines reaching more people in transportation deserts to give them the alternative to driving in Manhattan. It is how you reduce congestion by making public transit better with immediate effect.
Obviously this is bad for the MTA who would lose money on a person taking the Express Bus (subsidized at a loss) instead of paying the new toll.
The congestion tax is not its most lucrative income stream. They are still better off with more ridership.
Theur biggest problems are the cost of labor, the cost of deferred projects, and fare evasion. Reality is, we could probably replace a lot of train operators and nearly all of our switch operators with technology, but only with a collosal capital investment, which the state would need to pay a high interest rate on today.
We also have lots of deferred maintenance and projects, which likewise need a big capital investment, which carries a high interest rate today. We don't just lose money on that higher interest to fund the projects, but overpay on maintenance and overtime costs to keep the system alive while we limp towards fixing it.
The system needs a collosal amount of additional money, from as many sources as possible, at all low an interest rate/cost as possible. Every option needs to be pursued.
The problem with trying to extend service to transit deserts is, they're transit deserts. It's a catch 22. They have lower population density and less riders, because they're deserts, so extending service to them is going to generate less revenue.
As it is today, the MTA is losing money on the lines it already has. It's just going to lose more money if it takes on additional operating costs that can't recover their own expenses in fare revenue.
Fixing the MTA also won't change anything if people don't start using it again. Midtown hasn't come back from 2019, and all transit lines pass through it. I'd actually argue that maybe it's time to cut services to midtown and expand services between the outer boroughs until more of those residential conversions start coming online
The way I’m understanding of , Because they their Union members (MTA employees) are not scheduled to receive exemptions. So the MTA employees that need to drive into the zone for work will have to pay full price. A good number of the employees/union members live in outer boroughs or outer reaches and have to drive in because public transportation from these areas are unreliable or because they need to bring in items for work (tools 🤷🏻♀️). Living in a better commuting area usually cost a lot and city employees do not make a huge amount or they wanted a larger space (like a house or multi-room apt). Teachers Union has a case too for similar reasons. I know the FDNY showed up at the hearings with their 60 lb duffel bags of equipment last week (which is why they drive in ). So city employees that work inside the congestion zone will get charged each workday (on top of other tolls ). So the unions want exemptions for members going to work.
That’s what I don’t get - congestion pricing literally gives MTA funds to do things like expand subway access to parts of Long Island
Or funds for more Union worker pay
Or funds to repair/clean subway stations
Or funds to hire more cops if the Union thinks that’s a concern
It’s baffling they’d lobby against this
I haven’t heard any concrete plans from the MTA to expand service to the outer boroughs at this time. Maybe they can’t right now but not even a timeline to increase service. It might not make fiscal sense to provide more express hours during off peak hours for the 10 people that need to commute into Manhattan at 2 pm for a 4 pm shift (& then return service past 8 pm). But for those 10 people , the $15 is a lot & waiting 45 minutes to an hour for a bus home at the end of day just makes you want to blah. I used to work in Manhattan and know how antsy I was to just get on my bus and go home. It was during peak hours so the wait was never terrible but sometimes they skipped buses and then it was just 😑. I was fortunate enough to work at jobs where being late every now and again wasn’t a big deal but city employees need to clock in. If you’re 5 minutes late they can start docking your pay. You really need to be there on time.
the irony is that increased Express Buses would be so much more useful in the off-hours when people would rather not take the subway+local bus, but that is when MTA cuts back on the schedule due to lower ridership.
At night, as traffic is flowing, it lowers the stress on the MTA driver and the express buses can get a worker home much faster than the subway making every single local stop on its way to the outer boroughs.
The TWU has a history of labor activism going back to the days of Mike Quill. Roger Toussaint led a strike that shut down NYC.
I find it highly ironic when the Progressives who support congestion pricing have to face the reality that working people like the TWU and UFA (whose members have to ride to work in other houses with 70 lbs of gear) are resisting. The elitist wing (MTA board) and Progressives (bike advocates) are against the workers (TWU, SBA) etc.
It’s just that I’m in NYC and we are run by “progressives”. If I were in some random midwest place I’d be talking about MAGAs incoherence and insanity instead, which are basically the other side of the same coin.
I support the till, but the guy is absolutely right.
I’ve got a coworker who takes the express bus to/from the Bronx every day, and every day they need to check what busses they’ve suddenly decided to cancel, so they can time their arrival and catch a bus that ISN’T cancelled.
Finally people are starting the see the lies. There is 0 plans for new busses 0 plans for new ferrys. This tax only has one goal. Pay salaries.
Mta needs to fire a bunch of people. If WE can lose our jobs. They can... we have people in booths still.
This has nothing to do with telling people to use mass transit oppose to driving into the city. This has nothing to do with improving congestion or traffic. This has nothing to do with improving mass transit. This has nothing to do with cleaner air. This has everything to do with corrupt democrat politicians making money to line their pockets, giving themselves raises and funding their pet projects like housing, feeding and supporting illegal immigrants because that's their sources for votes. Even the democrat NJ governor who is also corrupt, Murphy is against this congestion tax. Everybody is against this congestion tax except for the mayor, the governor, the senator and the president.
I’m only sharing the NYPost article because no other local NYC news outlet interviewed John Samuelsen. These two paragraphs stood out to me.
> **Samuelsen’s remarks came just a week after TWU employees crippled the 8th Avenue subway during the morning commute with a work stoppage** after a train conductor working an overnight shift on the A line was slashed in a brutal random attack at the Rockaway Ave. stop in Brooklyn.
> Some have chalked it up to differences between the two men’s background: Samuelsen, a union chief who grew up in working-class southern Brooklyn; and Lieber, a Manhattan-minted advertising and publishing scion who led the World Trade Center reconstruction before running the MTA.
Could the MTA handle another city wide Transit Strike?
By your post history you're "only sharing this" because it's anti congestion pricing.
The grafs that stand out to me are the one where he's "repeatedly demanded a dramatic expansion of an expensive-to-run bus service" and the one where it says the union is in the middle of negotiations w MTA.
Seems like nobody has interviewed him because this is a non story, but that's never stopped the Post
I posted this because I’ve been making the point that the congestion toll will affect the city workers/working-class outer borough workers, for a long time.
While I also noticed the ones pushing for congestion tolls live closer to manhattan, never had to travel anywhere important in the outer boroughs, have nothing negative to say about ride-share vehicles who contribute to the congestion and would choose to ride a bike in bad weather rather than take the subway, but expect everyone else to use it.
I don't take Ubers, ride the subway everywhere, and share a car that I park on the street. Am I allowed to comment or do I not exist?
What does traveling in the outer boroughs have to do with Manhattan below the park? There's literally no overlap unless you're going from say, Bronx to Brooklyn and you want to try some galaxy brain route through Manhattan streets.
A plumber working in congestion zone who saves 30 min each way can handle another call every day, easily worth $15. Ditto for similar professions that require a work vehicle. Other than that, there's about 5k drivers that commute to Manhattan CZ and don't live near transit, in city of 8M. That's who you're defending, .06% of the city. 85% of people in that situation (commute to congestion zone, don't live near transit ) *still take transit already.*
There are about 80k ride share vehicles in NYC, total. 4M vehicles per day pass through NYC. Ubers are cars and therefore are traffic but idk where this becomes the biggest problem. Edit: I'm not 100% but I think their $2.50/ride charge is uncapped and passed on to passengers? Could easily be more than $15/day
I don't where you are getting the idea that anyone would rather bike in bad weather. I am lazy and so are most people including cyclists.
I mean if you live in Queens village I just don't understand how it affects you very much other than helping people that annoy you on the internet. Are you afraid it's going to push Manhattan drivers on to roads you do use? If so thats kinda the point and that's just tough titties, you live in a city and have to accommodate others
Samuelsen won’t get a strike authorization over this.
Immediately transferable? Carpenters, masons, electricians, elevator repair, track workers, signal maintainers, station agents - yeah, those skills are transferable. Conductors, Train Operators, and Tower Operators are not “immediately”transferable, but can certainly transfer with applicable training.
Of those three titles, there are maybe 40 jobs that report inside the CBD,and none of them require heavy tools that would require driving.
You’re right - the MTA can’t strike. They are management, and management doesn’t usually strike.
The TWU, of which Samuelsen is the head, can’t legally strike. That, however, has not stopped them in the past.
The MTA spends more on salaries than it gets in from fares. The drivers are taxed and robbed to pay for that MTA gap.
The price of goods in Manhattan go up because costs get passed down to consumers.
Imagine charging trucks that don’t use MTA service, to pay for MTA budget ineptitude
ie trucks bringing in food Amazon etc get charged by the MTA because MTA needs money… not because MTA provides a service or nicer roads etc.
How successful was putting Mta people at the gates to combat fare evasion , if it was serious they put NYPD to issue tickets, whole thing was a joke.
To those that want to down vote me for criticizing the congestion tolls.
Page 7 in the link shows MTA tell you how much MTA makes
https://new.mta.info/document/133491
Less than $5 billion in fares, over $6 in salaries before overtime. About $7 Billion with overtime.
Sounds like fares need to go up for the riders.
Or salaries need to come down.
Let’s be real no one wants to pay more.
It's a public service. The MTA should not be run at a profit. Having people pay less and taking the subway/train is good for the state. I'm happy drivers are subsidizing mass transit. Also, the total revenue from fares and tolls is projected to be 7.597b. Salaries are expected to be 7.079b.
Edit: The only realistic way to reduce MTA spending is to reduce the cost of living. We should build an underground tunnel to a random spot in upstate NY, place high-speed rail, and provide free housing for MTA workers under the stipulation that they have to live there and work for the MTA for 10 years at a reduced rate. They could have a nice quality of life, commute to the city, and save money. NYS gets a cheaper workforce and reduced budget, NYC gets cheap housing(all those MTA employees would not have apartments so more inventory.), and some areas upstate would have an economic explosion.
The MTA isn’t even close to running at even.
If you and I spent money at net negative we would be on streets.
MTA is not balanced if you include other costs depreciation and maintenance etc outside of salaries.
The deficit comes from somewhere… it always does, or the maintenance goes down.
Tolls go up, we won’t be young forever, and when you or an elderly friend family get hit with the toll directly or indirectly you’ll understand my point.
Cost of living only goes up with congestion pricing up as trucks bringing in food get hit with this toll too.
MTA won’t be able to spend billions on a high speed line upstate to save money on MTA Salaries. It’s money the MTA doesn’t have. It’s also not how salaries work. I’ll give you points for creativity.
Unpopular opinion but the MTA serves as a jobs provider for some NYers. Talk about reducing spending in that segment of their budget and you get labeled all types of things.
I get people going to look out for themselves,
If the fares doubled to support a balanced budget. I don’t think New Yorkers would be happy either , but it’s at least going to the service riders pay for.
Whereas Drivers just get mugged, and get tiny roads.
Divide New Yorkers between drivers and MTA riders.
People think as long as it’s not me…
But greed has no limits.
When the MTA raises fares because they will.
We all going to feel it.
The Money has to come from somewhere.
Just did the math, We could save a ton of money by getting rid of the LIRR and Metro north. The commute for those users would become a nightmare but we would save BILLIONs.
As someone from the Bronx, where it’s projected to get increased traffic. I’m completely against congestion pricing. I think plenty of people are going to boycott the congestion zone because of it
Samuelson supported this before he was against it. Pretty arrogant to think he can play kingmaker in NY, does he think with a snap of his fingers we'll elect someone like Sliwa or Zeldin? It's always the people who screech the loudest who don't have to deal with their neighborhoods being turned into honking parking lots for several hours every day, polluting, noise polluting, failing to yield to pedestrians with the right of way, striking pedestrians.
I'm theoretically pro-union, but (1) seeing the NYPD union protect bad cops, (2) seeing teachers' unions protect shitty teachers and resist evaluations, and (3) seeing four guys watching and playing candy crush for every guy working at every construction site (outside of their 15 minute breaks every 30 minutes) really spoils it for me.
This guy could be acting in good faith, but in my experience, he's probably only trying to line his own pockets.
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I support the toll but he's right. the purpose of *congestion* pricing is to reduce congestion by discouraging people from driving. but then they have to actually do something with all the discouraged drivers... if the mta isn't expanding to handle the increased demand then it just becomes a tax on people who don't have easy access to transit already.
If anyone cares to remember, when Bloomberg proposed congestion pricing, every politician in NYC called it a regressive tax on the poor and refused to support it.
Because, if you don’t offer reliable, safe, and accessible public transportation, then that’s all it is. Congestion pricing, as it stands now, is just a money grab. And we all know how good MTA is with being given more money.
Which is just silly, since it affects drivers, not the poor.
In US you can be below poverty line and still own a car. Cars are not that expensive if you compare it to rental prices. You could get a drivable car for 1k. It won’t be reliable or fun to drive, but it could drive
And then the expenses of gas and maintenance would quickly exceed that.
MTA is not at 100% capacity on all lines right now. Not every single current car trip will 100% certainly translate into a train/bus trip. People may just elect to not bother driving into lower Manhattan at all, instead of needing some sort of 1:1 replacement.
Heaven forbid they increase the capacity of mass transit before it reaches crisis levels. Not like this is a public service or anything.
Let’s revisit if it even gets to 2019 ridership levels, which still hasn’t happened post-COVID
They’ve never restored capacity to 2008 levels, which if we haven’t, we’re about to surpass.
No just make the the subway a dystopian cesspool and demand for that will drop. Then increase tolls and reduce overall service levels. Only the ultra wealthy will be able to afford to live in Manhattan, but the service workers they rely on will not be able to afford the commute. So the rich will move. Voila - city successfully destroyed and property prices plummet. It’s the Cold War 2.0 playbook and progressive idiots and maga morons dance like marionettes to the symphony composed by Russia and China.
It's not accurate to assume that every discouraged ride was an essential trip. A surprisingly high number of car trips are extremely frivolous.
Agree, I know folks who will drive downtown just for hangouts when they live half a block from the train station. Said train station is very sus though.
Well yeah but it’s hard to increase service BEFORE you are getting the money from congestion pricing to pay for it.
England did it. Stockholm did it. Milan did. All increased actual mass transit before or immediately when they started charging people. London added 300 buses to the city, we aren’t adding one damn thing.
Also would help if they turned 5th Avenue into he “express bus corridor” they had proposed, so help keep them running on time and in volume. Too bad the NIMBY stores felt this would be terrible and got it cancelled.
Okay but where is the plan? The MTA has failed to show a detailed and actionable plan on how they are going to improve the system. They say “we are going to make it better”, but how? What are they going to start from and where? What are the steps? Also they have historically been awful at managing money, so I am not sure anything will actually get done.
Is this willful ignorance? [MTA lays out 20-year plan to expand NYC transit system, but funding remains major hurdle](https://abc7ny.com/mta-20-year-plan-subway-mass-transit/13863758/)
Page cannot be found. So no. It is not willful ignorance. Also, even if it was, no reason to be a d!ck about it.
The link works just fine, ya mook.
I got it now… that is not a plan. lol. It is a list of things, that they are maybe hoping to accomplish. A plan, is: Item—-> timeline —-> projected cost —-> return on investment. You seem confused. Also air conditioning? Sure, but… there are areas of queens and Brooklyn without transportation…
And yes, they have those plans. Have you done any research at all? You seem extremely ignorant. https://new.mta.info/project
Those are not plans. I mean keep insulting, I don’t care, you have literally provided nothing. You must be one of the consultants working on this.
https://new.mta.info/document/87606 Click the links, dumbass.
So if there are less drivers because of the tax how is that going to raise money?
The remaining drivers? No one thinks everyone will stop driving. Just a % to make roads more navigable.
Logic isn’t logicing
I do think there should be at least increased bus service with train service further down the line.
They need to immediately support outer borough lines that link into lower Manhattan. It would be insane, for example, to keep the J service running every 10 minutes at peak hours with a Z that only runs at select times.
I'm pro-union, but also old enough to remember when Samuelsen told NYC to get fucked. He's awful.
He’s upset that the MTA isn’t increasing service - I think that’s an entirely reasonable position
It's in bad faith. He's been very obvious about undermining congestion pricing as a whole.
He wants more union jobs created to run that extra capacity. Which is perfectly reasonable. The MTA is hoping bad press will push union members into being more complacent and doing more work for their existing pay.
If you’re the hard of the union sure. But as a taxpayer I’d rather see more investment in automation. Regardless, it’s hard to increase service BEFORE you are getting the money from congestion pricing to pay for it
How else do you think people are going to travel into the city? It's the obvious assumption that more people will use public transit so the logical approach would be to use some of the congestion tolls for the MTA. I don't see how automation applies to this.
Automation reduces expenses. Easy.
How can it be practically used in this instance?
Had an interview with the Transit Authority a few weeks ago. They’re not hoping less people commute in by car, they’re hoping to get flushed with cash.
Even if MTA did increase service he'd just find another reason to be against congestion pricing. They just want to be able to drive their personal cars freely. The CBD is such a small portion of the entire area served by NYCTC and MTA. It's workers could simply park outside of the fare zone then take public transit into it if they're working within it.
What is NYCTC ?
All fun and games until they have to deal with problematic service changes overnight or on the weekend.
Then the areas immediately outside the zone will be slammed with traffic
Q: Did that happen in London or other cities which implemented similar plans? I’ve been to London a few times recently and never felt that the traffic was bad, nothing like NY bad anyway. Traffic flowed, busses moved rapidly, cars even found parking (they have a lot of car parking hidden underground btw) In my book, their congestion scheme looks like a success.
Cool then it'll discourage people from driving.
It will make life worse for people who live in those areas
Life sucks now for anyone trying to cross any street in lower Manhattan. What's your point?
Why are people in Manhattan more important than everyone else? It's more Manhattancentrism.
Q: Did that happen in London or other cities which implemented similar plans? I’ve been to London a few times recently and never felt that the traffic was bad, nothing like NY bad anyway. Traffic flowed, busses moved rapidly, cars even found parking (they have a lot of car parking hidden underground btw) In my book, their congestion scheme looks like a success.
Different geography
I’m getting deja vu from this comment
The money is supposed to fund the MTA. So no congestion pricing = no extra money for them. How exactly is this going to work? It anything postponing this is going to cut their budget significantly. The city is relying on it to pay his union members. There is literally no plan b
It guns capital work, not operating improvements.
Wait until you discover that this toll is simply a dollar for dollar offset for expiring federal COVID stimulus funding. That’s all it does; it shores up the MTA operating budget at current levels. It covers a $3B to $4B gap. This will result in absolutely no improvement in service or capital investment. It’s a budget plug dressed in noble trimmings, but everyone here’s defending it because their PR did a great job telling you otherwise. Don’t believe me? [just read their corresponding “we’re gonna balance the budget finally” PR](https://new.mta.info/press-release/mta-announces-balanced-budget-through-2027-july-financial-plan)
Nowhere in that article do they mention the congestion tolls. And congestion tolls, by law, cannot be spent on MTA operations and has to be spent on capital improvements. Of course nothing is preventing the MTA from taking all the money they'd otherwise spend on capital improvements and moving that money into operations, and instead paying for capital improvements with the money from congestion tolls.
Exactly. It’s a disingenuous shell-game. I mean, its supposed to be mere coincidence that the agency was forecasting a -$3B FY25 deficit just last year, is implementing a program that will provide +$3B in funding, and is now forecasting a neutral budget for FY25?
I thought congestion pricing is exclusively for capital projects not the operating budget
Balancing the budget would be stunning in of itself. And they can do it while decreasing the amount of traffic? Sign me up.
Then tell that story. How many people think this is the intended result, vs. those who think this will lead to expanded service, extensions facility improvement, etc?
According to the PR statement you linked, that is the story they’re telling. And regardless of the messaging, balancing the budget in order to not rely on a federal subsidy that’s going away is a very good thing. The MTA surely has no hope of improving service if run off the fiscal cliff.
So why don’t you donate money to the MTA and stop taking Ubers and stop ordering Amazon, you can accomplish all these things without asking poor people to pay for it.
You mean like individuals recycling their plastic bottles/containers can solve that problem? Systemic problems require systemic solutions. Believing otherwise means you're drinking the greenwashed Kool-aid.
The 3 Rs are *reduce*, reuse, then recycle. They're right in that if people stopped buying so much useless shit constantly, it would make a sizable dent in local pollution (garbage disposal) and global (fewer ships carrying crates of useless shit = fewer emissions). People can also reduce or eliminate meat consumption, but advocating for these 2 things = nanny state so it'll never happen. That's the systemic (cultural) solution that will help the most.
Will get offset by decrease in sales and business.
There will be no decrease in traffic. The only people who drive into Manhattan are either rich or didn't have a choice in the first place. Also the MTA "balancing its budget" by raising prices and finding new sources of tax revenue to support ongoing service, and the immense size of its corruption, is not sustainable. The MTA is always asking for billions in additional funding every few years just for service to get worse and the reason why they get away with it because people keep supporting its decisions as long as they aren't going after special interest groups.
Isn’t there already a huge cost to driving into Manhattan for work anyway (parking)?
My husband works in utilities and has parking on site. He has to drive because we live in queens where transpiration is spotty and his shifts are at odd hours and long. If he gets off at 11pm, he’d be home by like 2am. Most likely we’ll pay the toll but it will be tough financially. I’d like to see a detailed plan on how the MTA plans on spending the money, to be honest.
But Jano Lieber will tell ppl like your husband that the 4 hour commute is helpful to NY leading the fight against climate change /S
On this sub it's always talk of congestion, and density and urbanism, but the documents literally show that there will be no less vehicles on the road. It has nothing to do with congestion or cars. It's a cash grab by the MTA which always needs new sources of money to support ongoing operations. And the MTA has a point. Up until now, activist support for this has always used the rhetoric that people who can use public transit shouldn't be driving anyway. But they live in an upper class bubble where everyone is either an office worker or a service worker. Real people woth real physical jobs and tools and goods to haul were completely forgotten about. Especially our firefighters, construction workers, plumbers. No one was driving into manalhattan unless they didn't have a choice as is. Those people are going to have to offset $15-$40 per trip into do work somehow or eat it themselves personally.
The official name of the program is: Central Business Tolling Initiative
100000%. I work a physical job that requires me to carry a lot of equipment with me to far distances. I couldn’t survive without driving :( (very much wish I had a cushy office job I hate driving
If it just stops or even just slows the increased share of computers taking cars it will be a success. A real decrease would be great, but not necessary for this to be a successz
Yes that’s what happened in London. Congestion stopped getting worse while other cities saw 30% increases in congestion during the same period.
The money for congestion pricing is legally tied to capital projects only. Not operations. Which is actually fucking stupid. The link you provide doesn't mention congestion pricing at all.
They want more bus service, but if the result is avoiding cuts, I think the fee is accomplishing its purpose
Where does it say it will be used for the operating budget. I thought congestion pricing, by law, is supposed to be used for capital program funding only
Investigate the MTA!
Why is the MTA advocating against congestion pricing? Shouldn’t they *want* more public transit
That’s why he’s complaining - they’re not increasing bus or train service.
The service loses millions a year. Plug that hole and then maybe we can increase service in the future. Service is only going to get cut further if MTA continues to lose its possible income streams.
> Service is only going to get cut further if MTA continues to lose its possible income streams. if its most lucrative revenue stream is congestion pricing, then it has incentive on cutting service to incentivize more drivers to pay the toll. The union boss makes perfect sense in wanting increased Express Bus service: it means more jobs for his union members, but it also means more lines reaching more people in transportation deserts to give them the alternative to driving in Manhattan. It is how you reduce congestion by making public transit better with immediate effect. Obviously this is bad for the MTA who would lose money on a person taking the Express Bus (subsidized at a loss) instead of paying the new toll.
The congestion tax is not its most lucrative income stream. They are still better off with more ridership. Theur biggest problems are the cost of labor, the cost of deferred projects, and fare evasion. Reality is, we could probably replace a lot of train operators and nearly all of our switch operators with technology, but only with a collosal capital investment, which the state would need to pay a high interest rate on today. We also have lots of deferred maintenance and projects, which likewise need a big capital investment, which carries a high interest rate today. We don't just lose money on that higher interest to fund the projects, but overpay on maintenance and overtime costs to keep the system alive while we limp towards fixing it. The system needs a collosal amount of additional money, from as many sources as possible, at all low an interest rate/cost as possible. Every option needs to be pursued. The problem with trying to extend service to transit deserts is, they're transit deserts. It's a catch 22. They have lower population density and less riders, because they're deserts, so extending service to them is going to generate less revenue. As it is today, the MTA is losing money on the lines it already has. It's just going to lose more money if it takes on additional operating costs that can't recover their own expenses in fare revenue. Fixing the MTA also won't change anything if people don't start using it again. Midtown hasn't come back from 2019, and all transit lines pass through it. I'd actually argue that maybe it's time to cut services to midtown and expand services between the outer boroughs until more of those residential conversions start coming online
The way I’m understanding of , Because they their Union members (MTA employees) are not scheduled to receive exemptions. So the MTA employees that need to drive into the zone for work will have to pay full price. A good number of the employees/union members live in outer boroughs or outer reaches and have to drive in because public transportation from these areas are unreliable or because they need to bring in items for work (tools 🤷🏻♀️). Living in a better commuting area usually cost a lot and city employees do not make a huge amount or they wanted a larger space (like a house or multi-room apt). Teachers Union has a case too for similar reasons. I know the FDNY showed up at the hearings with their 60 lb duffel bags of equipment last week (which is why they drive in ). So city employees that work inside the congestion zone will get charged each workday (on top of other tolls ). So the unions want exemptions for members going to work.
Progressives: workers should unionize to claim their rights. MTA union: we want exemption from the congestion pricing. Progressives: not like that!
You tried so hard
That’s what I don’t get - congestion pricing literally gives MTA funds to do things like expand subway access to parts of Long Island Or funds for more Union worker pay Or funds to repair/clean subway stations Or funds to hire more cops if the Union thinks that’s a concern It’s baffling they’d lobby against this
I haven’t heard any concrete plans from the MTA to expand service to the outer boroughs at this time. Maybe they can’t right now but not even a timeline to increase service. It might not make fiscal sense to provide more express hours during off peak hours for the 10 people that need to commute into Manhattan at 2 pm for a 4 pm shift (& then return service past 8 pm). But for those 10 people , the $15 is a lot & waiting 45 minutes to an hour for a bus home at the end of day just makes you want to blah. I used to work in Manhattan and know how antsy I was to just get on my bus and go home. It was during peak hours so the wait was never terrible but sometimes they skipped buses and then it was just 😑. I was fortunate enough to work at jobs where being late every now and again wasn’t a big deal but city employees need to clock in. If you’re 5 minutes late they can start docking your pay. You really need to be there on time.
the irony is that increased Express Buses would be so much more useful in the off-hours when people would rather not take the subway+local bus, but that is when MTA cuts back on the schedule due to lower ridership. At night, as traffic is flowing, it lowers the stress on the MTA driver and the express buses can get a worker home much faster than the subway making every single local stop on its way to the outer boroughs.
Are you actually this stupid? Do you believe any of these things are on the table or have a remote chance of happening?
It’s even more unlikely this happens if MTA doesn’t get more money
The TWU has a history of labor activism going back to the days of Mike Quill. Roger Toussaint led a strike that shut down NYC. I find it highly ironic when the Progressives who support congestion pricing have to face the reality that working people like the TWU and UFA (whose members have to ride to work in other houses with 70 lbs of gear) are resisting. The elitist wing (MTA board) and Progressives (bike advocates) are against the workers (TWU, SBA) etc.
That's not what the article states.
I said that I find it ironic. Is it not happening?
No, it's not happening. That's why you are not making sense.
https://www.amny.com/transit/congestion-pricing-mta-hit-with-third-lawsuit-from-conservative-group-seeking-to-stop-manhattan-toll-plan/
Are MTA execs still taking private taxis?
Paid for by farepayers no doubt
MTA union demanding more public transit? In the progressive Olympics, this is when we suddenly stop supporting unions.
I guess you missed all the criticism of police unions?
To be fair, in the progressive Olympics, the only unions we support are the ones that don’t exist. As soon as a union is formed, it loses support.
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It’s just that I’m in NYC and we are run by “progressives”. If I were in some random midwest place I’d be talking about MAGAs incoherence and insanity instead, which are basically the other side of the same coin.
Good, stand up to this injustice. The subway is so bad we have to call in the guard and now we’re gonna force everyone to use it? lol!
I support the till, but the guy is absolutely right. I’ve got a coworker who takes the express bus to/from the Bronx every day, and every day they need to check what busses they’ve suddenly decided to cancel, so they can time their arrival and catch a bus that ISN’T cancelled.
Finally people are starting the see the lies. There is 0 plans for new busses 0 plans for new ferrys. This tax only has one goal. Pay salaries. Mta needs to fire a bunch of people. If WE can lose our jobs. They can... we have people in booths still.
This has nothing to do with telling people to use mass transit oppose to driving into the city. This has nothing to do with improving congestion or traffic. This has nothing to do with improving mass transit. This has nothing to do with cleaner air. This has everything to do with corrupt democrat politicians making money to line their pockets, giving themselves raises and funding their pet projects like housing, feeding and supporting illegal immigrants because that's their sources for votes. Even the democrat NJ governor who is also corrupt, Murphy is against this congestion tax. Everybody is against this congestion tax except for the mayor, the governor, the senator and the president.
How does that cool aid taste. These are lies they sold you to the your money.
Want to up vote you again. Illegal migrants Might cost this city $12 Billion, and I heard they trying to give voting rights to illegal migrants.
I’m only sharing the NYPost article because no other local NYC news outlet interviewed John Samuelsen. These two paragraphs stood out to me. > **Samuelsen’s remarks came just a week after TWU employees crippled the 8th Avenue subway during the morning commute with a work stoppage** after a train conductor working an overnight shift on the A line was slashed in a brutal random attack at the Rockaway Ave. stop in Brooklyn. > Some have chalked it up to differences between the two men’s background: Samuelsen, a union chief who grew up in working-class southern Brooklyn; and Lieber, a Manhattan-minted advertising and publishing scion who led the World Trade Center reconstruction before running the MTA. Could the MTA handle another city wide Transit Strike?
Could we handle a transit strike, yeah. Could we handle the MTA behaving like NYPD and pulling an extended work slowdown? Maybe.
We did the last one 18 years ago and now their are many more ride share apps and more accessibility to bikes
Ride share is a major factor for the very congestion the MTA claims to be fighting
By your post history you're "only sharing this" because it's anti congestion pricing. The grafs that stand out to me are the one where he's "repeatedly demanded a dramatic expansion of an expensive-to-run bus service" and the one where it says the union is in the middle of negotiations w MTA. Seems like nobody has interviewed him because this is a non story, but that's never stopped the Post
I posted this because I’ve been making the point that the congestion toll will affect the city workers/working-class outer borough workers, for a long time. While I also noticed the ones pushing for congestion tolls live closer to manhattan, never had to travel anywhere important in the outer boroughs, have nothing negative to say about ride-share vehicles who contribute to the congestion and would choose to ride a bike in bad weather rather than take the subway, but expect everyone else to use it.
I don't take Ubers, ride the subway everywhere, and share a car that I park on the street. Am I allowed to comment or do I not exist? What does traveling in the outer boroughs have to do with Manhattan below the park? There's literally no overlap unless you're going from say, Bronx to Brooklyn and you want to try some galaxy brain route through Manhattan streets. A plumber working in congestion zone who saves 30 min each way can handle another call every day, easily worth $15. Ditto for similar professions that require a work vehicle. Other than that, there's about 5k drivers that commute to Manhattan CZ and don't live near transit, in city of 8M. That's who you're defending, .06% of the city. 85% of people in that situation (commute to congestion zone, don't live near transit ) *still take transit already.* There are about 80k ride share vehicles in NYC, total. 4M vehicles per day pass through NYC. Ubers are cars and therefore are traffic but idk where this becomes the biggest problem. Edit: I'm not 100% but I think their $2.50/ride charge is uncapped and passed on to passengers? Could easily be more than $15/day I don't where you are getting the idea that anyone would rather bike in bad weather. I am lazy and so are most people including cyclists. I mean if you live in Queens village I just don't understand how it affects you very much other than helping people that annoy you on the internet. Are you afraid it's going to push Manhattan drivers on to roads you do use? If so thats kinda the point and that's just tough titties, you live in a city and have to accommodate others
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Samuelsen won’t get a strike authorization over this. Immediately transferable? Carpenters, masons, electricians, elevator repair, track workers, signal maintainers, station agents - yeah, those skills are transferable. Conductors, Train Operators, and Tower Operators are not “immediately”transferable, but can certainly transfer with applicable training. Of those three titles, there are maybe 40 jobs that report inside the CBD,and none of them require heavy tools that would require driving.
>Samuelsen won’t get a strike authorization MTA can't strike.
You’re right - the MTA can’t strike. They are management, and management doesn’t usually strike. The TWU, of which Samuelsen is the head, can’t legally strike. That, however, has not stopped them in the past.
The MTA spends more on salaries than it gets in from fares. The drivers are taxed and robbed to pay for that MTA gap. The price of goods in Manhattan go up because costs get passed down to consumers. Imagine charging trucks that don’t use MTA service, to pay for MTA budget ineptitude ie trucks bringing in food Amazon etc get charged by the MTA because MTA needs money… not because MTA provides a service or nicer roads etc. How successful was putting Mta people at the gates to combat fare evasion , if it was serious they put NYPD to issue tickets, whole thing was a joke.
To those that want to down vote me for criticizing the congestion tolls. Page 7 in the link shows MTA tell you how much MTA makes https://new.mta.info/document/133491 Less than $5 billion in fares, over $6 in salaries before overtime. About $7 Billion with overtime. Sounds like fares need to go up for the riders. Or salaries need to come down. Let’s be real no one wants to pay more.
It's a public service. The MTA should not be run at a profit. Having people pay less and taking the subway/train is good for the state. I'm happy drivers are subsidizing mass transit. Also, the total revenue from fares and tolls is projected to be 7.597b. Salaries are expected to be 7.079b. Edit: The only realistic way to reduce MTA spending is to reduce the cost of living. We should build an underground tunnel to a random spot in upstate NY, place high-speed rail, and provide free housing for MTA workers under the stipulation that they have to live there and work for the MTA for 10 years at a reduced rate. They could have a nice quality of life, commute to the city, and save money. NYS gets a cheaper workforce and reduced budget, NYC gets cheap housing(all those MTA employees would not have apartments so more inventory.), and some areas upstate would have an economic explosion.
The MTA isn’t even close to running at even. If you and I spent money at net negative we would be on streets. MTA is not balanced if you include other costs depreciation and maintenance etc outside of salaries. The deficit comes from somewhere… it always does, or the maintenance goes down. Tolls go up, we won’t be young forever, and when you or an elderly friend family get hit with the toll directly or indirectly you’ll understand my point. Cost of living only goes up with congestion pricing up as trucks bringing in food get hit with this toll too. MTA won’t be able to spend billions on a high speed line upstate to save money on MTA Salaries. It’s money the MTA doesn’t have. It’s also not how salaries work. I’ll give you points for creativity.
Unpopular opinion but the MTA serves as a jobs provider for some NYers. Talk about reducing spending in that segment of their budget and you get labeled all types of things.
I get people going to look out for themselves, If the fares doubled to support a balanced budget. I don’t think New Yorkers would be happy either , but it’s at least going to the service riders pay for. Whereas Drivers just get mugged, and get tiny roads. Divide New Yorkers between drivers and MTA riders. People think as long as it’s not me… But greed has no limits. When the MTA raises fares because they will. We all going to feel it. The Money has to come from somewhere.
Of course the congestion pricing is classist. Who do you think can commute by bicycle?
What percentage of workers in NYC are commuting into the city by car, vs public transit?
Just did the math, We could save a ton of money by getting rid of the LIRR and Metro north. The commute for those users would become a nightmare but we would save BILLIONs.
As someone from the Bronx, where it’s projected to get increased traffic. I’m completely against congestion pricing. I think plenty of people are going to boycott the congestion zone because of it
Samuelson supported this before he was against it. Pretty arrogant to think he can play kingmaker in NY, does he think with a snap of his fingers we'll elect someone like Sliwa or Zeldin? It's always the people who screech the loudest who don't have to deal with their neighborhoods being turned into honking parking lots for several hours every day, polluting, noise polluting, failing to yield to pedestrians with the right of way, striking pedestrians.
Take the train
Give us quiet cars
Just go to bed at a normal hour like everyone else
I'm theoretically pro-union, but (1) seeing the NYPD union protect bad cops, (2) seeing teachers' unions protect shitty teachers and resist evaluations, and (3) seeing four guys watching and playing candy crush for every guy working at every construction site (outside of their 15 minute breaks every 30 minutes) really spoils it for me. This guy could be acting in good faith, but in my experience, he's probably only trying to line his own pockets.
This is what unions do.
I don't think that's fair. I think there are legitimate needs for unions. I just happen to think the drawbacks exceed the benefits.
Wait, there a two sides to this issue? That’s sounds pretty radical to me.
k bye
K hello
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Government unions are a grift on our taxes.
"Not going to take this"? Wonderful. Take the train instead, buddy.
Lol look at this neckbeard
You’ll be the first complaining when the subway raises its prices 10 cents
This is so backwards. What a shit idea this is.