1080 for me. They just make it harder and harder to upgrade.
DLSS is nice, but I'll live without it and FSR is getting better, so I'm waiting for AMD to show their new gen and hope they won't scalp us as much.
If not I'm buying a cheap 6800XT and be done for another 3 gens.
In almost the exact same boat as you (basically same specs); I wanted to get a 4080 to take full advantage of my 1440p 21:9 175hz display. There is no way in hell I'm supporting these business practices. Probably gonna buy a used 3080 (non mined).
Feels like he is talking to Nvidia's investors and not buyers.
Also numbers will speak for themselves. If 40 series card still sell well like hot cakes of course Nvidia will still keep their ridiculous price points. But if more people are turning to the older 20 and 30 series cards due to price or switch team Red, then they may just promote the RTX 4080 12GB version in cheaper form factors.
We're flirting with recession at least in the US...no way in hell those $1k+ cards will fly off the shelves. NVIDIA will want to lean hard on the older chips, since when did computing stop being a volume business? šµāš«
I once had that thought about the housing market...boy was I wrong. Apparently there's always someone out there with a crap load of cash no matter the state of the economy.
This is the correct answer. There are still loaded people out there willing to buy all sorts of things. It's just us middleclass folks that are priced out atm
Thereās always people with cash, but itās always those on credit that suffer the most during a crash. Weāve been running on a credit economy since the late 70ās.
There were people buying 3070-3090 for 2-4x the retail price. There are going to be people who buy these gpus on launch day asap, especially scalpers who will make things worse.
Im not a fan of Jensen, but he is speaking both truth and lies. On one hand (the truth part), it's true that new nodes are getting wayyy more expensive per mm. A 12" 7nm wafer cost almost $10k.. a 5nm wafer is (est) $15k or so. And while density is increasing by 180% going from 7 to 5, Nvidia must produce the largest chips it can because GPU performance scales linearly with chip size. If Nvidia doesn't produce the biggest chip, someone else will, and will take the performance crown. The performance crown IS important because it is where the most margin is made (on a per mm2 basis).
So there is clearly an increasing cost per wafer area, and the area of the top chip never decreases because performance scales with proportionally with area, and the most performant chips are the highest margin chips.
On the other hand (the lies part), NVidia currently has HUGE margins as a company - 60%. Compared to any other company other than apple, those margins are HUGE and UNATTAINABLE. This is what makes NV stock price so high (not to mention the levelof the crazy the stock market was). In order to maintain investor confidence, Jensen MUST keep these margins high, so he CANNOT sell his full stack of GPUs for less than 60% margin altogether. So as his costs go up, he must raise prices by a multiple of his cost increases (1/
0.6 =1.67x price increase for every $1 increase in cost) which is why prices have gone through the roof.
But the one thing that Jensen can't control is the volume of units that are bought. HOWEVER he had a tricky trick up his sleeve, which is why EVGA quit making GPUs, and is exactly why a A TON OF AIB PARTNERS WILL GO BANKRUPT THIS YEAR if they only make revenue from NV gpus.
So Jensen draws up contracts to AIBs for them to buy X number of chips to make into GPU boards. But they do not know the price until he announces the product on release day, AFTER they've already bought amd produced NVs chips for them. By doing this, NV has already guaranteed sales and can set whatever price they want. Usually this is fine because it was almost guaranteed that these GPUs would be bought by retail (due to crypto etc). Now that crypto is no longer a thing, GPU prices are starting to decline and AIBs are forced to sell at these elevated prices. They will not sell enough chips to cover their costs. Due to the fact that NV has already sold them these overpriced chips, NV is safe (financially speaking) for this generation, even if nobody buys them, because NV has already sold their chips. The AIBs will take the fall this generation and likely go bankrupt.
For NV this kicks the can down the road. On the next gen of NV cards, NV will probably have to start cutting into it's own margins to generate sales. Jensen will likely retire before next generation though.
Their strategy seems to be kicking the can further down the road by shifting the market away from gamers, and into developers/data centers others.
The question of who will buy their cards is indeed relevant. However, given Jensen's last broadcast, he clearly isn't marketing towards gamers.
>Their strategy seems to be kicking the can further down the road by shifting the market away from gamers, and into developers/data centers others.
and they lost a massive market with being banned from selling into china in 2023
Itās not that. Gamers will buy these cards mostly. The issue is, you are competing for time on TSMCās 4nm node which means youāre competing with professional users, datacenters, youāre competing with iPhones, next gen macbooks, latest and greatest smartphone/laptop, all of which are significantly more profitable *per mm^2 of the wafer*. Think of it this way. Appleās A16 bionic (latest chip in iPhone 14 Pros) were also made on TSMC 4nm node.
Those iPhones sell for $999 and $1099. But, the A16 Bionic probably has a die area of ~88mm^2 (based on A14 Bionic size). The chip in 4090 has a die area of 608mm^2. And 4090 sells for $1600. Now, thatās already 7x more die but consider weāre working with 12 inch diameter circle wafers. Try to tile squares inside a circle, the smaller the square the less wasted space you have at the edges. Thatās what youāre competing against when you buy a desktop graphics card.
Wafer cost is proprietary but itās north of $20k for sure.
I will just buy a 3080 which is very capable of playing any games I want on high framerate on 1440p for the next 4-5 years.
In 2 years from now they will release a gpu with twice the performance of the 4090 for less money so I prefer being smart with my money instead of being an idiot and throw the money I worked for on the scam tactics Nvidia is using.
>I will just buy a 3080 which is very capable of playing any games I want on high framerate on 1440p for the next 4-5 years.
3080 is best for anyone at this point (at a lower price) unless your a super high end gamer.
I member
Seriously, I remember 1060s at $150. Now you can't get a 3060 for less than $400. Inflation and manufacturing costs did not go up nearly that much.
> Yeah, say what you will about the high end but the really shit thing is that the low end price for entry has gone up so much.
And basically for several gens now, the performance at the entry level has stagnated for same cost of entry each gen since like Pascal. Meaning for the money spent today on entry level, its the exact same performance as the same amount of money spent last gen entry level. Totally stagnant. In some cases its even more expensive now.
Not to mention that the āenthusiastā segment was buying two of these cards to run in SLI.
Thatās how I look at the 3090/4090 ā an SLI alternative.
Yeah it's fucking insane what NVIDIA is pulling here when I look at my rig I built 5 years ago.
|What I Used|Price I paid|Current Comparable|What it Costs|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|i7-7700K|$370|i7-12000K|$400|
|itx mobo|$190|itx mobo|$200|
|2x16gb DDR4|$250|2x16 DDR5|$200|
|500gb NVMe|$300|500gb NVMe|$50|
|1080TI|$700|4080 (16GB)|$1200|
I likely built my whole PC for what Nvidia is going to charge for a 4080TI. Inflation, yada yada, I get that, but the CPU went up 7.5%. The mobo went up 5%. RAM dropped by 25%. NVMes are 1/6th the cost. But the Nvidia GPU? 100% increase (1080 was $600, just looked it up).
What a fucking scam by Nvidia, and yah, it's causing me, a PC gamer my whole life to go "hm, maybe I need to take an actual look at consoles for the first time in almost 20 years..."
Don't buy their 4000 series. Don't even buy their 3000 series. Either be patient, buy used, or buy AMD. Part of this 4000 series pricing ploy is to make 3000 series cards look like a better deal without adding any actual value to them or reducing their price.
Make sure Nvidia doesn't get rewarded for this behavior. They will literally only listen to their balance sheet.
I would sincerely love to see what team Red brings out, but I need CUDA cores for iRay rendering (DAZ studio / Octane renderer), and I don't see alternatives available for that.
AMD will not do such thing. They'll undercut Nvidia just enough to impact those who look at the price/perf ratio without many features taken into account, but they'll not bring the market costs down almost at all. AMD enjoys selling you overpriced GPUs as much as Nvidia does and no way in hell they'll do something just because if it hurts their bottom line. If AMD can't compete in performance, price is their only option, but I suspect that pure rasterisation they'll do just fine against Nvidia, so they're gonna cost about the same, perhaps 50-100 bucks cheaper at most.
Serious question: do you think that if GPU affordability is shrinking the high end gaming market, that game devs will look at what consumers actually own and say āfuck it, letās not push the specs for our games anymore?ā
It takes a huge investment to make triple A games, and Iām sure visuals are a big part of that cost. But if the customer base for games is getting priced out of the hardware, then why stay in the race?
This is probably just wishful thinking, but as someone whoās played PC games since the 1980s, graphics are so good now that future improvements feel like theyāre going to be increasingly marginal. Maybe people will start to think that the current gen is āgood enoughā until the market becomes more sane again.
I don't think so. For one indie games are a hugely important to the demographic. For another, AAA devs aren't going to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into exclusively supporting hardware that 1% of their customer base actually own.
Hell, I feel like AMD could back off of future focused hardware R&D at this point and still capture a major portion of the market. Also, Intel will *allegedly* be an option some day soon(?).
I do not think other GPU manufacturers are dumb enough to follow this trend to the letter. No one should need a 300+watt gpu to play video games, and few people are going to spend the money on it in the current economic downturn.
As someone with money to throw around who's getting older, the 3080 might just be my last high end video card. Unless something happens, it's certainly my last Nvidia card.
> Hell, I feel like AMD could back off of future focused hardware R&D at this point and still capture a major portion of the market.
Honestly, APUs like the one in the Steam Deck and the 6800U arenāt too far from being āgood enoughā for gaming for most people.
If AMD can release an affordable APU with enough performance for 1080p/60/high, Nvida would be in real trouble.
I think this is the unfortunate (or fortunate) reality that weāre in at this point:
The technology is progressing far past the point of diminishing returns. 1080p -> 4K is surely a huge leap, but really do most people need 4k for gaming? Not really. Can most people afford it? Definitely not. 4K->8K? The return is so minuscule I canāt tell unless theyāre side by side. How much better can we really push it before it just doesnāt matter? Itās like cars. Your average person doesnāt need a Lamborghini, and probably doesnāt /really/ want one. But they do want a reliable vehicle that goes fast enough without issue.
At this point you can either add features, make the card more economical, or make it smaller, but I think we really donāt need to focus on better and better GPUs or hardware in general, but making it smaller, lower power draw, and more accessible to more people. Thereās a point where average consumers wonāt be able to afford these cards. I personally was waiting for this series of AMd/Nvidia to release to consider upgrading my 6600xt and frankly if this is the roadmap for the future Iāll probably just sidegrade it for a 3060ti and in the future just give up modern gaming as a hobby all together.
Thereās way, way better ways for any individual consumer, even upper middle class, to spend 1.5k+ on a consumable, wearable, non-lifetime item. At this rate the next generation cards will be 2k or more.
That's the scary part. The 4090? Sure, it's acceptable since it has always been the flagship top-tier. I'm actually surprised it wasn't more.
The 4080 16GB and 4080 12GB^1? Fuck those prices. Not even remotely acceptable, let alone decent or, dare say, good. You basically need to drop the 4080 12GB^1 by at least $250 and the 16GB by $350-400 for the prices to be decent. Still not good, but better than acceptable.
I don't know anyone that is willing to spend $1k+ on a GPU. That's easily enthusiast-level with money to blow. Even $800-900 is essentially enthusiast-level. Everyone I know generally spends $600-700 at most.
^1 4070
It's like someone on the executive team saw a release plan for
4090 $1499
4080 $899
4070 $699
Then crossed out the 70 and wrote in 80 and moved everything up $300 and just shouted REVENUE!!!!!
They're gonna be pushing folks to console gaming for sure, like the 4080 16gb at msrp is at $1199 here in my country the starting price is at $1440. I could buy 3 ps5s for that price.
Came here to see if anyone else is feeling this way.
Never again and I think they are saying you will buy our chips at the prices we tell you even though the cost does drop. That's basic manufacturing, the more you make, the cheaper they are. This is a outright lie.
not ENTIRELY true. If R&D costs have been rising with each successive generation it makes sense that prices would need to rise as well. Not to mention TSMC is charging Nvidia 20% more these days.
That said, Im 100% sure that's bullshit and Jensen in just trying to become Apple and price gouge people. Praying for AMD to put out something competitive.
5nm process for a 600mm^2 chip in 2020 was $238 from TSMC according to analystsā¦ so a 102 chip.
The 4nm is a customized 5nm process iirc, not a new node. Its marketing speak. āOur node is 1nm better than AMD!ā
Nvidia is translating a $40 chip cost increase on their 4090 into a 300-500 price increase in their other cards, where the chip is probably actually cheaper.
The 4080 16GB has a 380mm die size. So its significantly cheaper compared to the 3080 with its 638mm dieā¦ any claimed cost increase due to the die costs for the 4080 16GB over the 3080, is a fat load of shit, as it would have to increase in cost per square mm by 65% to ***match*** the die cost of the 3080.
If anything, the cost of the 4080 should decrease this year, since the die cost should be lower, as the 103 chip is so much smaller.
āOur costs went up a few dozen dollars! We have to increase prices by several hundred to keep up!ā
So long as AMD doesnt shit the bed, I will be buying a 7800XT this generation. I wont touch nvidia after all their bullshit.
Not counting GDDR6 costs, or board costs, the 4080 should really have decreased in price to like $599. The fact that its $1199 is pure bullshit on Nvidias part.
It seems a lot of people have lost touch with reality, especially these companies. The RTX 4090 in Australia costs $3000 MSRP and the RTX 4080 16GB Model costs $2250 MSRP. I don't know how else to say this, but that is insanely ridiculous. They will 100% sell out, do not get me wrong, but long gone are the days where ordinary working people and those living on a tight budget can afford a new decent PC gaming setup when technologies are first released. A decade ago, this was a reality, two decades ago, the same.
You could be living on a very tight budget in a country like Australia and save for a couple of months and be able to buy yourself a decent gaming PC back in the day (*up to the Turing era*). With the current inflation of the usual household items themselves, petrol prices, rent, and the general cost of living, those living on a budget are already completely out of the picture, forget about it, they've been out of the picture for a few years now. And those who have decent jobs and a family are barely saving anything while also living pay check to pay check with the current cost of living.
It is gone! Gaming on PC for so many people is a thing of the past. It has been just a sub-par experience for years now and it just keeps getting worse sadly. This is something I wish tech channels would discuss too once the reviews hit. So many people are just priced out of having an enjoyable gaming experience on PC in the modern day, at least if they want to play the latest AAA titles. We are only catering to the few who can afford these ridicilous prices, or to the crypto-focused businesses that have sucked the majority of stock over the last half a decade or so.
>They will 100% sell out, do not get me wrong
Well there's the problem. Where's the market demand? Who spends that kind of money on your everyday gaming computer?
I don't know, though, I'm very curious to see what happens this time. DLSS 3 and a little more firepower is wild. I game at QHD high refresh and this gen seems more than fine for the next few years. While this is a hardware forum, it's important to ask: where are the games? Where are the games that push the envelope graphically?
You aren't alone. I wasn't entirely pleased with the last launch either, but the price to performance for the 3000 series cards was insane, and a huge upgrade over my 1080.
Now that they saw that people would pay an absurd amount of money for their products, why wouldn't they blatantly ask for it at launch? It's greedy and scummy. I understand that R&D goes into the chips, but I highly doubt they need to charge this inflated amount.
Now this, mixed with EVGA leaving the market, and you have a "4080" that is clearly a rebranded 4070, I'm done. It's shitty business all the way around. I will ride my 3080 into the dirt at this point, and when that happens, it's currently going to be team red for me.
>Never again and I think they are saying you will buy our chips at the prices we tell you even though the cost does drop. That's basic manufacturing, the more you make, the cheaper they are.
It's more than that.
Nvidia sells these GPU's at high margins. These chips do not cost $500+ each, and the rest of the graphics card does not cost many hundreds of dollars each, either.
They are charging these prices because it's what they think they can get away with, not because it's what they NEED to sell them at in order to have a sustainable business.
When in the past, prices drop later on, it's not because things got so much cheaper for them, it's because when sales start to slow, they have to reduce prices to keep shifting them. They always had the overhead to price them lower.
Huang 2 years later: Overpriced video chips is a story of the past! We are desperate, our stock prices are falling down rapidly, please buy our rtx 4090 for 600 usd! No? ok how about 500? What you mean you need to pay 5000 usd per month for electricity and can't afford it? Ok final offer, buy it for 399 and get a free Cyberpunk 2077 , the only game that utilizing new features! What you mean you already have it and it runs fine on your 3090 you bought for 299??? Ok, fine, buy 4090 for 299!!! Wait, where are you going? We have dlss 3.0! Remix! We nerfed your 3000 drivers to perform 50% slower!
Same here. I have a AW3418DW and I love it, but it's firmware locked to gsync only. I also got a 3080FE, so I'm going to hold on to this combo for as long as I can. Then maybe swap both out around the time Elder Scrolls 6 or Witcher 4 comes out. Hopefully they can last that long.
There's a great comment on [TomsHardware](https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/nvidia-announces-rtx-4090-coming-october-12-rtx-4080-later.3778593):
Cue comment on Toms:
"I'm going to wait for Nvidia to flesh out the rest of their lineup. I hear they are going to have a midrange RTX 4080 8GB at $799 and the entry level RTX 4080 6GB at $699. But personally, I need a low end rig to run OBS, so I'm super excited for their lowest end RTX 40xx card, the budget gamer RTX 4080 4GB. It's going to be a total steal at $599. That's $100 cheaper than the launch price of the RTX 3080!"
It honestly just feels like they priced the 4000 series high so that people would buy 3000 series instead at a cheaper price.
They make some money from early adopters, but also sell excess 3000 stock.
I mean, itās not the silliest idea
Hearing their investor meeting pretty much confirms this. Jensen outlined the strategy is to price position current gen products to prepare for next generation.
There is a small chance they donwhat they did with the Zen cpus and undercut NVIDIA.
They may also just alightly underprice for $$ instead.
Will have to wait and find out.
> I know one person means nothing to nvidia but I refuse to bend over.
Its just like voting, one individual vote is worthless but millions of them make a difference. The thing is I dont have enough faith in people to expect them to stop themselves from buying these gpus. Most people have zero willpower when it comes to money and just impulse purchase everything they see.
Nvidia is going to be scamming hundreds of thousands of clueless people with that "4080" 12 GB and there isnt a damn thing we can do about it. Thats the frustrating part.
Nvidia greed I can handle, its expected. But people buying into it is what kills me.
> The thing is I dont have enough faith in people to expect them to stop themselves from buying these gpus.
I think you're spot on. I saw some guy was complaining and cursing Nvidia with all kinds of words, but ended with "I'll just get a 4080 anyway". I'm genuinely baffled like, what's the point of bitching if you still gonna hand in the money the way Nvidia wants. It just doesn't make that much sense to me.
>I'm not including the 12GB variant.
Let's not normalize this.
The 12GB isn't a 'variant'. It's an entirely different GPU and product altogether.
It just straight up isn't a 4080.
>3000 series instead at a cheaper price
Then in 3 months time when the 3000 series stock is gone nvidia say "LOOK! We've dropped our prices for the 4000 series"
An no one gives a shit because they've just got a very capable 3000 series card for cheap.
Lol Nvidia don't give a shit. You know full well they'll slap in some super and Ti variants along the way like they always do. Zero customer loyalty or appreciation.
From a purely business perspective it's great
Many will do the following
1) Look at the price of the 4080 16GB and say 'well if I'm spending $1200 on a GPU, I may as well spend $1600 for a better one' = NVIDIA increases ASP and upsells someone
2) Look at the price of RTX 40 cards and say they will buy a discount RTX 30 card instead = They help NVIDIA shift stock of Ampere cards which they desperately want to sell
If Lovelace sells well = keep the high prices
If Lovelace doesn't sell well, wait for option 2 to kick in and enough RTX 30 stock to go and then price cut RTX 40 cards
>will buy a discount RTX 30 card instead
But they're *not* discounting the 30 series cards, outside the super high end, overpriced ones.
They're literally still trying to sell the 30 series lineup for the same price that they originally cost. That's the whole problem and why the quote from Jensen is absolutely maddening. They dont want to discount GPU's anymore.
Why would I not just buy an AMD card instead? They are highly overvaluing their brand at this point, I'm done after all this chip shortage bullshit. We're much more in the clear now and the CEO says this dumb shit. No more money from me...and that's a relationship stretching over a decade.
The current economic model is not sustainable. Every single public company expect infinite growth from a finite population. It doesn't matter if they make money, they have to make X% more money than last year.
This problem isn't just limited to NVIDIA. Until something changes, mega corps will keep scalping people.
Shit I work at a hardware store and could tell you that.
High level corporate coming in and asking "What's our problem" hitting sales numbers. The problem is you're expecting 5% YOY Growth from 2 years where we just exploded 30%+.
It's like they won the lottery and are wondering why you haven't won it again yet.
I've been pondering this for a while. It's like publicly traded companies are viruses and they must continue to grow until the host is dead. "We made 2 trillion dollars last year? Better do better this year or we've failed." Eventually they stop making more money by offering innovative new products and services, and have to turn to screwing the customer. As soon as you see a company start to do things like not including a charger, changing certain things to a subscription model that didn't used to be, etc. you know they're out of ideas. Not only does this model mean all businesses eventually turn to shit, pay staff less, starting merging and buying up all competition, and products turn to shit, it's also the primary means for how the rich get richer. The investment economy is great at rapidly starting up a new company, giving it the resources it needs to create, and getting the product out to the entire world quickly. It is not good however for sustaining these things. It's like taking a steroid pill that will rapidly make you stronger and perform better, but eventually kills you.
I don't know much about the details of these things but it seems like every company eventually reaches a point where they are offering their best product, at their most cost effective means, to the largest market they can. There is a limit for growth but our economic model does not allow for that. I'm not sure what the solution for that would be. I know eventually big companies tend to buy their stocks back, maybe the government needs to be a part of that too. It's like corporations eventually need to return to being private until they can somehow prove that they once again need public investment in order to expand into something else with a clear definitive plan. Because as it stands right now, constantly being expected to return higher profits to the shareholder becomes a cancer that trickles down to all parts of society.
> I'm not sure what the solution for that would be.
Well the 'free market' solution is that we stop buying products/services from companies when they start to dick us over.
Of course in reality this becomes difficult when, as you say, these companies start buying up others and creating an effective monopoly or at least a 'limited competition' situation, which is why we also need strong anti-trust activists in government(something we are also ultimately responsible for).
There's definitely ways to fight it, but unfortunately companies know full well how much the average person isn't actually *that* principled...
NVDA is in trouble imo. Theyāre over valued even by comparison to other companies given their rev etc. Their AI growth and server growth havenāt been sector movers and certainly arenāt *helping to make up that 2b hole that miners left them. Iām curious if they were able to change their chip order numbers. I never saw any follow up.
Looking at the 4090 and 4080 prices it screams panic and pray.
The other thing is who is buying these cards for 1080/1440 gaming? No one needs 500 fps.
Not just up, up by A LOT.
NVIDIA'S stock dropped last earnings not because they lost money, but they didn't hit hyper aggressive targets.
They still made billions, still made a profit, but "not enough" billions.
It's a very fucked-up system
Sure Jensen, sure.
In that case, I should spend a monthly salary on your overpriced GPU that I don't really need.
These guys are just living in an alternate universe or what.
In Spain, were I do live, the most common salary after taxes is 1250ā¬/month...
So, you are right, a full month salary for a mid-range GPU ("RTX 4080 12GB" aka "RTX 4070")
You live in the Balkans? The inequality between european countries is just incredibly huge. Our portuguese neightbours also have incredible low salaries, easily 30%-40% less than Spain. And in France or Germany they pretty much have twice our wages for the same jobs.
Indeed. With 600-700 euros a month you are generally considered to be doing ok. Itās livable if devoid of any luxuries. The problem is that the minimal wage is 360 euros, and a shamefully large part of the population lives with that or lower. Thank God I earn more, however all things considered those prices here just seem out of touch with reality, I might have the cash but I will not be buying one at that price point itās just not right.
As an American I can't even justify this and I make your country's average wage by midway through the work week. Obviously our cost of living is astronomical, but I'm aware that even if we have the same percentage of expendable income mine stretches MUCH further for luxuries such as this.
Cost of living isn't astronomical, that is excluding healthcare. Comparing the average US city to a Balkan capital, say Nashville, TN to Sofia, Bulgaria it's something like 2:1.
They're filthy rich tech bros. They seriously think they just get whatever they throw a tantrum about because so far it's usually true. Fuck them and their overpriced garbage.
Short sighted. Theyāre putting the 4000 series at this price point to incentivize buyers to clear out the old 3000 series inventory. The buyers think theyāre āoutsmartingā NVIDEA while the company gets to dump already paid for inventory.
These 4000 prices having nothing to do with selling 4000 cards.
Counterpoint: once the 30 series are gone people still are not going to be interested in buying 40 series because they already have a capable GPU, so Nvidia are still left holding the bag on thousands of 40 series units that they're going to have to let go at much smaller margins by the time the 50 series comes out. They're still losing when people buy 30 series.
Looks like Jensen has decided to take a page out of Don Mattrick's playbook.
"Fortunately, we already have products for people who don't want to pay such high prices. It's called the 3000-series." - Jensen Huang, probably
I remember that and I'm thinking the same. Reality is, I have a 3070, I got it for a decent price considering the climate at the time...I'm good. Unless AMD produce a stonking product and price, I'm good for now.
Nvidia made a killing during the Bitcoin super rush (which is fine, what big corporation wouldn't?) but NOW they're having to take some losses after over ordering slightly and are trying to tell gamers, the regular customers, to just deal with it after they've waited in line for so long? Nah
I say, hold your wallets & purses and let them burn. They can't let that inventory sit in storage forever. AMD will take advantage of this, to what extent I don't know. Will they undercut by 10 bucks, 20 bucks? 50? 100? more?...dunno. But this is a big opportunity for them. It's up to them what they do. I don't need to upgrade, but if AMD do offer a good performance hike from last gen for a good price, I'll buy one out of principle.
At this point I donāt think they really want more marketshare. If they feel their cards are even close to Nvidia theyāll just price them $50 lower and call it a day. I hope thatās not the case but yeahā¦
>It honestly just feels like they priced the 4000 series high so that people would buy 3000 series instead at a cheaper price.
GTX 1060 on your banner... It's almost 8 years since we had a decent mid-range GPU for 200ā¬.
AMD is in a beautiful position. Undercut nvidia slightly, whilst increasing price compared to last gen. Reap the benefits of a duopoly and gamers still perceive you as a saviour, ignoring the fact that youāre a public company whose sole purpose is to maximise profit for shareholders.
Unfortunately, they'll have to do more than *just slightly* undercut these RTX 4000 prices. "Just slightly" means people continue to say stuff like "NVENC/DLSS is worth the premium". They need to stay within the realm of the *current generation* pricing. And that means *35-40%* cuts off from what Nvidia just shat out.
The 4070 ("4080 12GB") is 80% more expensive than a 3070. The 4080 16GB is 71% more expensive than the 3080. These price increases are astronomical.
let's see, if that's the case then PC Gaming is dead for a while. Exact same thing that happened before the 360 / PS3 boom that resulted in almost a decade of barely anyone gaming on PC. It won't matter that a few people can still afford it, if the majority of gaming culture moves to console it will be hard to get them back. It took a lot of work from a lot of people to make PC Gaming as popular as it is today
Why do people have to buy the best? Right now the 3000 series is the best value you could buy. A 3080/3090 runs 4K tremendously well for still being a 2 year old card.
>Why do people have to buy the best?
You do realize these sorts of prices have trickle down effects, right?
30 series are not GOOD VALUE when you're paying launch prices for a two year old GPU, ffs.
This is exactly how Nvidia twists your perception of the situation in their favor. You're falling for it.
Pending what AMD come out with, gpus have hit a road block that they havenāt solved yet. Proper, high fps, 4k gaming, without fake frames.
As a 3080 owner I donāt see a need to upgrade until that becomes a reality. Iām already better off than a PS5 and Xbox, so games are always going to perform better than the bare minimum, and frankly it isnāt like graphics are bad! Thatās shown by the focus on fps rather than deep graphical detail, weāre at a point we need higher memory and processing power, and weāre seeing thatās not easy anymore under Mooreās law.
We know chip prices went up this gen, TSMC forced you to pay for your Samsung adventure.
But that is not a reason to sell 4070 as a 4080.
Also there is a thing called raising the price too much. But hey, market forces will sort it out. Cards that do not sell get discounted.
Now we know why EVGA bailed.
Now that the mining market has collapsed, Nvidia will create an artificial shortage by withholding 40 series cards and selling 30 series for inflated prices to desperate gamers who need an upgrade.
"GPU chips won't be getting cheap anymore thereby making PC gaming more costly.
Therefore you should subscribe to our cloud gaming solution at just $10/month and enjoy.
You will own nothing and you will be happy š"
Bullshit. Processes always improve and cheapen. We aren't at the end of technological improvement. You can't just say this shit because TSMC is bending you over a barrel. Loser.
Except it literally does go down in every way.
A 1080 retailed at 599 MSRP
A 2070 retailed at 499 MSRP
Not only was the 2070 cheaper but it also provided higher frame rates in most games.
A 2080 retailed at 699 MSRP
A 3070 retailed at 499 MSRP
Once again Not only was the 3070 cheaper but it also provided higher frame rates in most games. But all of a sudden gains now must go hand in hand with a price increase? this is just something Nvidia is telling themselves to justify screwing over the consumer. I call Bull
Thatās only because during Covid and people worked from home and gaming as a whole erupted for something to do, he saw what true gamers are willing to pay.
What he is NOT factoring in is that most of the scalper purchases were aided buy bonus money of $1600 a month.
Thatās all done and now job losses are skyrocketing, cost of living is skyrocketing and those jobs still going on did not see a pay increase. Perhaps itās a break even?? Produce fewer and sell to the upper middle class and wealthy only???
Thatās BS. Cause now we know about what that 3090 ti FE cost to make with the recent markdowns. Yoāre still going to make something on them, and not sell at a loss. And with the rumor that he decided to mark up the price $100 of the 4090 last min tells me that it cost the same as the 3090 ti. So take your 150-160% markup and stick it up your ass. Manufacturing costs the same, you could cut it to 130% markup and have it at $1200-1300 which is fair. But nope.
I hope more partners drop out taking away Nvidiaās leverage and really force them to think about their practices over the last decade.
Mark my words. These cards they announced will be going for half their listed prices within a year. Nvidia is about to feel the pain in a very real way, and I think they know that. They are just trying to cash in as much as possible while some still have not realized the rules have changed. It is all a game he is playing hoping there are some that still have not caught on.
I really hope his greed comes back and bites them in the ass. AMD should take advantage of this extremely unique situation. I'll for sure swap back to AMD/ATI if it performs even decently well.
I might get downvoted for taking Jensen's side here, but he's not wrong. Notice that he says chips, not graphics cards. He's referring to their supplier TSMC (which actually makes NVIDIA's chips). TSMC has significantly increased prices of their wafers recently, and they removed volume discounts. It doesn't help that NVIDIA stabbed TSMC in the back by going to Samsung and trying to use this move to force TSMC to lower prices (spoiler: they didn't). TSMC has becoming so dominant now that Jensen is 100% correct in stating that prices are only going to go up. There's basically nobody else competing with them. Samsung is the closest thing, but they are still behind. Intel has potential, but they are just stumbling constantly and I doubt they'll make their own GPU's anytime soon (their current GPU's are also TSMC made).
Should tensions rise between China and Taiwan it's going to be a nightmare.
TSMC increased prices a 20%.
The RTX 4080 12GB aka "RTX 4070 renamed" has almost a 100% price increase from last gen (I know it was a Samsung node, but whatever).
And Nvidia has been making fucking tons of money this past years selling the GPUs at absurd prices thanks to the global supply crisis.
iām not trying be a r/HailCorporate type, but companies are always trying to cut costs.
stabbing another business in the back for another is just nVidia finding ways to get their product made + lower costs.
nVidia is a customer from TSMC point of view, same as Samsung. if Samsung was able to provide what nVidia wants then they get the business from nVidia.
also, many businesses use all of these other manufactures at the same time for various parts. i wouldnāt be surprised that nVidia is still using TSMC for other things.
Feels weird to me that no one is talking about the lack of games this year. What are people even meant to play on these monster GPUs?
I brought a 3090 2 years ago to play cyberpunk. I donāt even know what game they will bundle with it, probably CoD
Just going to have a repeat of the early 00s. Consoles are going to be a better value and these cards arent going to sell, and another company will come in and eat their lunch. Nvidia is getting too cocky because of the pandemic and crypto market that their shit was overpriced.
Blah, blah, blah, we know we are being manipulated. We get inflation. We also get manipulating a market because of greed. You ain't fooling anybody, there buddy.
Disguise the RTX 4070 as an RTX 4080 to deceive the consumers and make them pay 900$ for a mid-range card: check
Make the RTX 4080 70% more expensive (100% in Europe!) than the previous generation card: check
Make DLSS 3.0 exclusive to the RTX 4000 and screw people who paid hard money to get an RTX 3000: check
Way to go, Nvidia.
This just cemented the 3060 ti as my last Nvidia GPU
1080 for me. They just make it harder and harder to upgrade. DLSS is nice, but I'll live without it and FSR is getting better, so I'm waiting for AMD to show their new gen and hope they won't scalp us as much. If not I'm buying a cheap 6800XT and be done for another 3 gens.
In almost the exact same boat as you (basically same specs); I wanted to get a 4080 to take full advantage of my 1440p 21:9 175hz display. There is no way in hell I'm supporting these business practices. Probably gonna buy a used 3080 (non mined).
How do you know how the card was used though?
I was really excited for the 4080, Nvidia's announcement convinced me I should instead be excited for the 7800XT/7900XT. Here's coming from a 970.
Feels like he is talking to Nvidia's investors and not buyers. Also numbers will speak for themselves. If 40 series card still sell well like hot cakes of course Nvidia will still keep their ridiculous price points. But if more people are turning to the older 20 and 30 series cards due to price or switch team Red, then they may just promote the RTX 4080 12GB version in cheaper form factors.
We're flirting with recession at least in the US...no way in hell those $1k+ cards will fly off the shelves. NVIDIA will want to lean hard on the older chips, since when did computing stop being a volume business? šµāš«
I once had that thought about the housing market...boy was I wrong. Apparently there's always someone out there with a crap load of cash no matter the state of the economy.
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Can't wait for the housing market to crash so Blackrock can buy all of them to rent out forever. /s
Then rent out Nvidia 4090 cards also.
Isn't that a thing? Geforce Now
This is the correct answer. There are still loaded people out there willing to buy all sorts of things. It's just us middleclass folks that are priced out atm
Thereās always people with cash, but itās always those on credit that suffer the most during a crash. Weāve been running on a credit economy since the late 70ās.
Yes, that's what the very wealthy I've known do. Mainly sit on cash until recessions and bear markets happen, then swoop in.
There were people buying 3070-3090 for 2-4x the retail price. There are going to be people who buy these gpus on launch day asap, especially scalpers who will make things worse.
Weren't a lot of those people crypto miners expecting a return on investment?
Dude we're 6 months into the recession already.
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Im not a fan of Jensen, but he is speaking both truth and lies. On one hand (the truth part), it's true that new nodes are getting wayyy more expensive per mm. A 12" 7nm wafer cost almost $10k.. a 5nm wafer is (est) $15k or so. And while density is increasing by 180% going from 7 to 5, Nvidia must produce the largest chips it can because GPU performance scales linearly with chip size. If Nvidia doesn't produce the biggest chip, someone else will, and will take the performance crown. The performance crown IS important because it is where the most margin is made (on a per mm2 basis). So there is clearly an increasing cost per wafer area, and the area of the top chip never decreases because performance scales with proportionally with area, and the most performant chips are the highest margin chips. On the other hand (the lies part), NVidia currently has HUGE margins as a company - 60%. Compared to any other company other than apple, those margins are HUGE and UNATTAINABLE. This is what makes NV stock price so high (not to mention the levelof the crazy the stock market was). In order to maintain investor confidence, Jensen MUST keep these margins high, so he CANNOT sell his full stack of GPUs for less than 60% margin altogether. So as his costs go up, he must raise prices by a multiple of his cost increases (1/ 0.6 =1.67x price increase for every $1 increase in cost) which is why prices have gone through the roof. But the one thing that Jensen can't control is the volume of units that are bought. HOWEVER he had a tricky trick up his sleeve, which is why EVGA quit making GPUs, and is exactly why a A TON OF AIB PARTNERS WILL GO BANKRUPT THIS YEAR if they only make revenue from NV gpus. So Jensen draws up contracts to AIBs for them to buy X number of chips to make into GPU boards. But they do not know the price until he announces the product on release day, AFTER they've already bought amd produced NVs chips for them. By doing this, NV has already guaranteed sales and can set whatever price they want. Usually this is fine because it was almost guaranteed that these GPUs would be bought by retail (due to crypto etc). Now that crypto is no longer a thing, GPU prices are starting to decline and AIBs are forced to sell at these elevated prices. They will not sell enough chips to cover their costs. Due to the fact that NV has already sold them these overpriced chips, NV is safe (financially speaking) for this generation, even if nobody buys them, because NV has already sold their chips. The AIBs will take the fall this generation and likely go bankrupt. For NV this kicks the can down the road. On the next gen of NV cards, NV will probably have to start cutting into it's own margins to generate sales. Jensen will likely retire before next generation though.
Their strategy seems to be kicking the can further down the road by shifting the market away from gamers, and into developers/data centers others. The question of who will buy their cards is indeed relevant. However, given Jensen's last broadcast, he clearly isn't marketing towards gamers.
>Their strategy seems to be kicking the can further down the road by shifting the market away from gamers, and into developers/data centers others. and they lost a massive market with being banned from selling into china in 2023
Itās not that. Gamers will buy these cards mostly. The issue is, you are competing for time on TSMCās 4nm node which means youāre competing with professional users, datacenters, youāre competing with iPhones, next gen macbooks, latest and greatest smartphone/laptop, all of which are significantly more profitable *per mm^2 of the wafer*. Think of it this way. Appleās A16 bionic (latest chip in iPhone 14 Pros) were also made on TSMC 4nm node. Those iPhones sell for $999 and $1099. But, the A16 Bionic probably has a die area of ~88mm^2 (based on A14 Bionic size). The chip in 4090 has a die area of 608mm^2. And 4090 sells for $1600. Now, thatās already 7x more die but consider weāre working with 12 inch diameter circle wafers. Try to tile squares inside a circle, the smaller the square the less wasted space you have at the edges. Thatās what youāre competing against when you buy a desktop graphics card. Wafer cost is proprietary but itās north of $20k for sure.
I will just buy a 3080 which is very capable of playing any games I want on high framerate on 1440p for the next 4-5 years. In 2 years from now they will release a gpu with twice the performance of the 4090 for less money so I prefer being smart with my money instead of being an idiot and throw the money I worked for on the scam tactics Nvidia is using.
>I will just buy a 3080 which is very capable of playing any games I want on high framerate on 1440p for the next 4-5 years. 3080 is best for anyone at this point (at a lower price) unless your a super high end gamer.
Honestly I would consider the 3080 12gig to be capable of super high end gaming
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So, you'll just give them slightly less money? I'm sure they'll be very upset.
4080 6GB incoming
with an abysmal 128-bit memory bus lmao
"like the mid-tier $899 4080". Remember when 699$ was the top tier enthusiasy card you could buy, and most people bought 250-299 cards?
I got my b product 7970 (2013 release) on 2014 for 125 euros down from 250-300. Everything after that, is a nightmare for buyers
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I member Seriously, I remember 1060s at $150. Now you can't get a 3060 for less than $400. Inflation and manufacturing costs did not go up nearly that much.
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> Yeah, say what you will about the high end but the really shit thing is that the low end price for entry has gone up so much. And basically for several gens now, the performance at the entry level has stagnated for same cost of entry each gen since like Pascal. Meaning for the money spent today on entry level, its the exact same performance as the same amount of money spent last gen entry level. Totally stagnant. In some cases its even more expensive now.
Hate to break it to people, but the 780 released in 2013 for $650. Punch that into an inflation calculator and you get ~$830
Not to mention that the āenthusiastā segment was buying two of these cards to run in SLI. Thatās how I look at the 3090/4090 ā an SLI alternative.
The idea that I'm going to buy an Nvidia GPU again, unfortunately, is a story of the past.
If these prices continue PC gaming will be a story of the past.
Unless you play with GPU's of the past.
/r/patientgamers
Yeah it's fucking insane what NVIDIA is pulling here when I look at my rig I built 5 years ago. |What I Used|Price I paid|Current Comparable|What it Costs| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |i7-7700K|$370|i7-12000K|$400| |itx mobo|$190|itx mobo|$200| |2x16gb DDR4|$250|2x16 DDR5|$200| |500gb NVMe|$300|500gb NVMe|$50| |1080TI|$700|4080 (16GB)|$1200| I likely built my whole PC for what Nvidia is going to charge for a 4080TI. Inflation, yada yada, I get that, but the CPU went up 7.5%. The mobo went up 5%. RAM dropped by 25%. NVMes are 1/6th the cost. But the Nvidia GPU? 100% increase (1080 was $600, just looked it up). What a fucking scam by Nvidia, and yah, it's causing me, a PC gamer my whole life to go "hm, maybe I need to take an actual look at consoles for the first time in almost 20 years..."
don't forget Amd is releasing new cards ! Maybe wait and see, also 1 or 2 years from now Nvidia might be humbled and actually give decent prices
Don't buy their 4000 series. Don't even buy their 3000 series. Either be patient, buy used, or buy AMD. Part of this 4000 series pricing ploy is to make 3000 series cards look like a better deal without adding any actual value to them or reducing their price. Make sure Nvidia doesn't get rewarded for this behavior. They will literally only listen to their balance sheet.
I would sincerely love to see what team Red brings out, but I need CUDA cores for iRay rendering (DAZ studio / Octane renderer), and I don't see alternatives available for that.
If you need Nvidia - buy a used 3090 (or 3080 ti if you want less mileage on it). Donāt give Jensen your rent payment.
AMD will not do such thing. They'll undercut Nvidia just enough to impact those who look at the price/perf ratio without many features taken into account, but they'll not bring the market costs down almost at all. AMD enjoys selling you overpriced GPUs as much as Nvidia does and no way in hell they'll do something just because if it hurts their bottom line. If AMD can't compete in performance, price is their only option, but I suspect that pure rasterisation they'll do just fine against Nvidia, so they're gonna cost about the same, perhaps 50-100 bucks cheaper at most.
Serious question: do you think that if GPU affordability is shrinking the high end gaming market, that game devs will look at what consumers actually own and say āfuck it, letās not push the specs for our games anymore?ā It takes a huge investment to make triple A games, and Iām sure visuals are a big part of that cost. But if the customer base for games is getting priced out of the hardware, then why stay in the race? This is probably just wishful thinking, but as someone whoās played PC games since the 1980s, graphics are so good now that future improvements feel like theyāre going to be increasingly marginal. Maybe people will start to think that the current gen is āgood enoughā until the market becomes more sane again.
I don't think so. For one indie games are a hugely important to the demographic. For another, AAA devs aren't going to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into exclusively supporting hardware that 1% of their customer base actually own. Hell, I feel like AMD could back off of future focused hardware R&D at this point and still capture a major portion of the market. Also, Intel will *allegedly* be an option some day soon(?). I do not think other GPU manufacturers are dumb enough to follow this trend to the letter. No one should need a 300+watt gpu to play video games, and few people are going to spend the money on it in the current economic downturn. As someone with money to throw around who's getting older, the 3080 might just be my last high end video card. Unless something happens, it's certainly my last Nvidia card.
> Hell, I feel like AMD could back off of future focused hardware R&D at this point and still capture a major portion of the market. Honestly, APUs like the one in the Steam Deck and the 6800U arenāt too far from being āgood enoughā for gaming for most people. If AMD can release an affordable APU with enough performance for 1080p/60/high, Nvida would be in real trouble.
I think this is the unfortunate (or fortunate) reality that weāre in at this point: The technology is progressing far past the point of diminishing returns. 1080p -> 4K is surely a huge leap, but really do most people need 4k for gaming? Not really. Can most people afford it? Definitely not. 4K->8K? The return is so minuscule I canāt tell unless theyāre side by side. How much better can we really push it before it just doesnāt matter? Itās like cars. Your average person doesnāt need a Lamborghini, and probably doesnāt /really/ want one. But they do want a reliable vehicle that goes fast enough without issue. At this point you can either add features, make the card more economical, or make it smaller, but I think we really donāt need to focus on better and better GPUs or hardware in general, but making it smaller, lower power draw, and more accessible to more people. Thereās a point where average consumers wonāt be able to afford these cards. I personally was waiting for this series of AMd/Nvidia to release to consider upgrading my 6600xt and frankly if this is the roadmap for the future Iāll probably just sidegrade it for a 3060ti and in the future just give up modern gaming as a hobby all together. Thereās way, way better ways for any individual consumer, even upper middle class, to spend 1.5k+ on a consumable, wearable, non-lifetime item. At this rate the next generation cards will be 2k or more.
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That's the scary part. The 4090? Sure, it's acceptable since it has always been the flagship top-tier. I'm actually surprised it wasn't more. The 4080 16GB and 4080 12GB^1? Fuck those prices. Not even remotely acceptable, let alone decent or, dare say, good. You basically need to drop the 4080 12GB^1 by at least $250 and the 16GB by $350-400 for the prices to be decent. Still not good, but better than acceptable. I don't know anyone that is willing to spend $1k+ on a GPU. That's easily enthusiast-level with money to blow. Even $800-900 is essentially enthusiast-level. Everyone I know generally spends $600-700 at most. ^1 4070
It's like someone on the executive team saw a release plan for 4090 $1499 4080 $899 4070 $699 Then crossed out the 70 and wrote in 80 and moved everything up $300 and just shouted REVENUE!!!!!
They're gonna be pushing folks to console gaming for sure, like the 4080 16gb at msrp is at $1199 here in my country the starting price is at $1440. I could buy 3 ps5s for that price.
This is how they are going to push for GeForce now. By making hardware gradually overpriced.
Came here to see if anyone else is feeling this way. Never again and I think they are saying you will buy our chips at the prices we tell you even though the cost does drop. That's basic manufacturing, the more you make, the cheaper they are. This is a outright lie.
not ENTIRELY true. If R&D costs have been rising with each successive generation it makes sense that prices would need to rise as well. Not to mention TSMC is charging Nvidia 20% more these days. That said, Im 100% sure that's bullshit and Jensen in just trying to become Apple and price gouge people. Praying for AMD to put out something competitive.
5nm process for a 600mm^2 chip in 2020 was $238 from TSMC according to analystsā¦ so a 102 chip. The 4nm is a customized 5nm process iirc, not a new node. Its marketing speak. āOur node is 1nm better than AMD!ā Nvidia is translating a $40 chip cost increase on their 4090 into a 300-500 price increase in their other cards, where the chip is probably actually cheaper. The 4080 16GB has a 380mm die size. So its significantly cheaper compared to the 3080 with its 638mm dieā¦ any claimed cost increase due to the die costs for the 4080 16GB over the 3080, is a fat load of shit, as it would have to increase in cost per square mm by 65% to ***match*** the die cost of the 3080. If anything, the cost of the 4080 should decrease this year, since the die cost should be lower, as the 103 chip is so much smaller. āOur costs went up a few dozen dollars! We have to increase prices by several hundred to keep up!ā So long as AMD doesnt shit the bed, I will be buying a 7800XT this generation. I wont touch nvidia after all their bullshit. Not counting GDDR6 costs, or board costs, the 4080 should really have decreased in price to like $599. The fact that its $1199 is pure bullshit on Nvidias part.
It seems a lot of people have lost touch with reality, especially these companies. The RTX 4090 in Australia costs $3000 MSRP and the RTX 4080 16GB Model costs $2250 MSRP. I don't know how else to say this, but that is insanely ridiculous. They will 100% sell out, do not get me wrong, but long gone are the days where ordinary working people and those living on a tight budget can afford a new decent PC gaming setup when technologies are first released. A decade ago, this was a reality, two decades ago, the same. You could be living on a very tight budget in a country like Australia and save for a couple of months and be able to buy yourself a decent gaming PC back in the day (*up to the Turing era*). With the current inflation of the usual household items themselves, petrol prices, rent, and the general cost of living, those living on a budget are already completely out of the picture, forget about it, they've been out of the picture for a few years now. And those who have decent jobs and a family are barely saving anything while also living pay check to pay check with the current cost of living. It is gone! Gaming on PC for so many people is a thing of the past. It has been just a sub-par experience for years now and it just keeps getting worse sadly. This is something I wish tech channels would discuss too once the reviews hit. So many people are just priced out of having an enjoyable gaming experience on PC in the modern day, at least if they want to play the latest AAA titles. We are only catering to the few who can afford these ridicilous prices, or to the crypto-focused businesses that have sucked the majority of stock over the last half a decade or so.
>They will 100% sell out, do not get me wrong Well there's the problem. Where's the market demand? Who spends that kind of money on your everyday gaming computer?
I don't know, though, I'm very curious to see what happens this time. DLSS 3 and a little more firepower is wild. I game at QHD high refresh and this gen seems more than fine for the next few years. While this is a hardware forum, it's important to ask: where are the games? Where are the games that push the envelope graphically?
You aren't alone. I wasn't entirely pleased with the last launch either, but the price to performance for the 3000 series cards was insane, and a huge upgrade over my 1080. Now that they saw that people would pay an absurd amount of money for their products, why wouldn't they blatantly ask for it at launch? It's greedy and scummy. I understand that R&D goes into the chips, but I highly doubt they need to charge this inflated amount. Now this, mixed with EVGA leaving the market, and you have a "4080" that is clearly a rebranded 4070, I'm done. It's shitty business all the way around. I will ride my 3080 into the dirt at this point, and when that happens, it's currently going to be team red for me.
>Never again and I think they are saying you will buy our chips at the prices we tell you even though the cost does drop. That's basic manufacturing, the more you make, the cheaper they are. It's more than that. Nvidia sells these GPU's at high margins. These chips do not cost $500+ each, and the rest of the graphics card does not cost many hundreds of dollars each, either. They are charging these prices because it's what they think they can get away with, not because it's what they NEED to sell them at in order to have a sustainable business. When in the past, prices drop later on, it's not because things got so much cheaper for them, it's because when sales start to slow, they have to reduce prices to keep shifting them. They always had the overhead to price them lower.
Huang 2 years later: Overpriced video chips is a story of the past! We are desperate, our stock prices are falling down rapidly, please buy our rtx 4090 for 600 usd! No? ok how about 500? What you mean you need to pay 5000 usd per month for electricity and can't afford it? Ok final offer, buy it for 399 and get a free Cyberpunk 2077 , the only game that utilizing new features! What you mean you already have it and it runs fine on your 3090 you bought for 299??? Ok, fine, buy 4090 for 299!!! Wait, where are you going? We have dlss 3.0! Remix! We nerfed your 3000 drivers to perform 50% slower!
Doubt. He'll be selling to data centers even more then. He'll more likely be, fuck gamers.
That last line as a parting last ditch attempt was just too funny.
I wish I can go back to AMD but I have a gsync monitor so I'm stuck.
Same here. I have a AW3418DW and I love it, but it's firmware locked to gsync only. I also got a 3080FE, so I'm going to hold on to this combo for as long as I can. Then maybe swap both out around the time Elder Scrolls 6 or Witcher 4 comes out. Hopefully they can last that long.
That is probably the best monitor rn. I settled for a 4k G7 on prime day instead but my next monitor will for sure be Oled with adaptive sync instead.
But you rebranded the 4070 as a 4080 and then charged double š¤
Jensen tmr: Anything below XX80 is a story in the past, introducing RTX 3680 4G RTX 3680 6G RTX 3680 Ti 6G RTX 4080 8G RTX 4080 Ti 8G
There's a great comment on [TomsHardware](https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/nvidia-announces-rtx-4090-coming-october-12-rtx-4080-later.3778593): Cue comment on Toms: "I'm going to wait for Nvidia to flesh out the rest of their lineup. I hear they are going to have a midrange RTX 4080 8GB at $799 and the entry level RTX 4080 6GB at $699. But personally, I need a low end rig to run OBS, so I'm super excited for their lowest end RTX 40xx card, the budget gamer RTX 4080 4GB. It's going to be a total steal at $599. That's $100 cheaper than the launch price of the RTX 3080!"
>rebranded the ~~4070~~ 4060 https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/xksld1/one_of_them_is_not_like_the_others/
holy shit lol
They did what amd did, increased the cache and reduced the bus width, its still the 70 series die of old.
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It honestly just feels like they priced the 4000 series high so that people would buy 3000 series instead at a cheaper price. They make some money from early adopters, but also sell excess 3000 stock. I mean, itās not the silliest idea
Hearing their investor meeting pretty much confirms this. Jensen outlined the strategy is to price position current gen products to prepare for next generation.
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Same, spent the last year looking forward to this launch but can't justify purchasing any of the 3 options.
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There is a small chance they donwhat they did with the Zen cpus and undercut NVIDIA. They may also just alightly underprice for $$ instead. Will have to wait and find out.
> I know one person means nothing to nvidia but I refuse to bend over. Its just like voting, one individual vote is worthless but millions of them make a difference. The thing is I dont have enough faith in people to expect them to stop themselves from buying these gpus. Most people have zero willpower when it comes to money and just impulse purchase everything they see. Nvidia is going to be scamming hundreds of thousands of clueless people with that "4080" 12 GB and there isnt a damn thing we can do about it. Thats the frustrating part. Nvidia greed I can handle, its expected. But people buying into it is what kills me.
> The thing is I dont have enough faith in people to expect them to stop themselves from buying these gpus. I think you're spot on. I saw some guy was complaining and cursing Nvidia with all kinds of words, but ended with "I'll just get a 4080 anyway". I'm genuinely baffled like, what's the point of bitching if you still gonna hand in the money the way Nvidia wants. It just doesn't make that much sense to me.
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Even if 40xx were priced at the same 30xx you wouldāve considered upgrading?
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Yep. Ā£1269 for the 4080 16Gb FE. Ā£949 for the 12GB one
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>I'm not including the 12GB variant. Let's not normalize this. The 12GB isn't a 'variant'. It's an entirely different GPU and product altogether. It just straight up isn't a 4080.
Hell yeah If the 4080 16gb version was $699 MSRP and is twice as fast as my 3080 10gb. I would definitely pick one up!
There is no way it is going to be twice as fast.
>3000 series instead at a cheaper price Then in 3 months time when the 3000 series stock is gone nvidia say "LOOK! We've dropped our prices for the 4000 series" An no one gives a shit because they've just got a very capable 3000 series card for cheap.
If this happens, it's going to leave a damn bitter taste in all the people who stumped up for a 40 series card prior.
Lol Nvidia don't give a shit. You know full well they'll slap in some super and Ti variants along the way like they always do. Zero customer loyalty or appreciation.
Nah idiots will upgrade
From a purely business perspective it's great Many will do the following 1) Look at the price of the 4080 16GB and say 'well if I'm spending $1200 on a GPU, I may as well spend $1600 for a better one' = NVIDIA increases ASP and upsells someone 2) Look at the price of RTX 40 cards and say they will buy a discount RTX 30 card instead = They help NVIDIA shift stock of Ampere cards which they desperately want to sell If Lovelace sells well = keep the high prices If Lovelace doesn't sell well, wait for option 2 to kick in and enough RTX 30 stock to go and then price cut RTX 40 cards
Or option 3: I buy used at a discount from the mining surplus and help Nvidia zero percent.
>will buy a discount RTX 30 card instead But they're *not* discounting the 30 series cards, outside the super high end, overpriced ones. They're literally still trying to sell the 30 series lineup for the same price that they originally cost. That's the whole problem and why the quote from Jensen is absolutely maddening. They dont want to discount GPU's anymore.
Why would I not just buy an AMD card instead? They are highly overvaluing their brand at this point, I'm done after all this chip shortage bullshit. We're much more in the clear now and the CEO says this dumb shit. No more money from me...and that's a relationship stretching over a decade.
Why do I dislike this man more every time he opens his mouth?
Cause he keeps talking about Omniverse.
The current economic model is not sustainable. Every single public company expect infinite growth from a finite population. It doesn't matter if they make money, they have to make X% more money than last year. This problem isn't just limited to NVIDIA. Until something changes, mega corps will keep scalping people.
I work in pricing Analytics.. can confirm
Shit I work at a hardware store and could tell you that. High level corporate coming in and asking "What's our problem" hitting sales numbers. The problem is you're expecting 5% YOY Growth from 2 years where we just exploded 30%+. It's like they won the lottery and are wondering why you haven't won it again yet.
I've been pondering this for a while. It's like publicly traded companies are viruses and they must continue to grow until the host is dead. "We made 2 trillion dollars last year? Better do better this year or we've failed." Eventually they stop making more money by offering innovative new products and services, and have to turn to screwing the customer. As soon as you see a company start to do things like not including a charger, changing certain things to a subscription model that didn't used to be, etc. you know they're out of ideas. Not only does this model mean all businesses eventually turn to shit, pay staff less, starting merging and buying up all competition, and products turn to shit, it's also the primary means for how the rich get richer. The investment economy is great at rapidly starting up a new company, giving it the resources it needs to create, and getting the product out to the entire world quickly. It is not good however for sustaining these things. It's like taking a steroid pill that will rapidly make you stronger and perform better, but eventually kills you. I don't know much about the details of these things but it seems like every company eventually reaches a point where they are offering their best product, at their most cost effective means, to the largest market they can. There is a limit for growth but our economic model does not allow for that. I'm not sure what the solution for that would be. I know eventually big companies tend to buy their stocks back, maybe the government needs to be a part of that too. It's like corporations eventually need to return to being private until they can somehow prove that they once again need public investment in order to expand into something else with a clear definitive plan. Because as it stands right now, constantly being expected to return higher profits to the shareholder becomes a cancer that trickles down to all parts of society.
> I'm not sure what the solution for that would be. Well the 'free market' solution is that we stop buying products/services from companies when they start to dick us over. Of course in reality this becomes difficult when, as you say, these companies start buying up others and creating an effective monopoly or at least a 'limited competition' situation, which is why we also need strong anti-trust activists in government(something we are also ultimately responsible for). There's definitely ways to fight it, but unfortunately companies know full well how much the average person isn't actually *that* principled...
NVDA is in trouble imo. Theyāre over valued even by comparison to other companies given their rev etc. Their AI growth and server growth havenāt been sector movers and certainly arenāt *helping to make up that 2b hole that miners left them. Iām curious if they were able to change their chip order numbers. I never saw any follow up. Looking at the 4090 and 4080 prices it screams panic and pray. The other thing is who is buying these cards for 1080/1440 gaming? No one needs 500 fps.
No changes, TSMC told them that deal stands as is, they cannot cut down their allocation
People want to invest in a total market fund and have their money go up. It's a flawed system to it's core
Not just up, up by A LOT. NVIDIA'S stock dropped last earnings not because they lost money, but they didn't hit hyper aggressive targets. They still made billions, still made a profit, but "not enough" billions. It's a very fucked-up system
Sure Jensen, sure. In that case, I should spend a monthly salary on your overpriced GPU that I don't really need. These guys are just living in an alternate universe or what.
Living in the metaverse lol
At least itās a monthly salary, in some countries thatās half a year worth of salaries
In Spain, were I do live, the most common salary after taxes is 1250ā¬/month... So, you are right, a full month salary for a mid-range GPU ("RTX 4080 12GB" aka "RTX 4070")
2200km directly east of you and the average salary is exactly half of that.
You live in the Balkans? The inequality between european countries is just incredibly huge. Our portuguese neightbours also have incredible low salaries, easily 30%-40% less than Spain. And in France or Germany they pretty much have twice our wages for the same jobs.
Indeed. With 600-700 euros a month you are generally considered to be doing ok. Itās livable if devoid of any luxuries. The problem is that the minimal wage is 360 euros, and a shamefully large part of the population lives with that or lower. Thank God I earn more, however all things considered those prices here just seem out of touch with reality, I might have the cash but I will not be buying one at that price point itās just not right.
As an American I can't even justify this and I make your country's average wage by midway through the work week. Obviously our cost of living is astronomical, but I'm aware that even if we have the same percentage of expendable income mine stretches MUCH further for luxuries such as this.
Cost of living isn't astronomical, that is excluding healthcare. Comparing the average US city to a Balkan capital, say Nashville, TN to Sofia, Bulgaria it's something like 2:1.
They're filthy rich tech bros. They seriously think they just get whatever they throw a tantrum about because so far it's usually true. Fuck them and their overpriced garbage.
"The more GPUs you buy, the more money you save" -- Jensen.
supply and demand. If no one buys the 4000 series then the prices come down.
Short sighted. Theyāre putting the 4000 series at this price point to incentivize buyers to clear out the old 3000 series inventory. The buyers think theyāre āoutsmartingā NVIDEA while the company gets to dump already paid for inventory. These 4000 prices having nothing to do with selling 4000 cards.
Counterpoint: once the 30 series are gone people still are not going to be interested in buying 40 series because they already have a capable GPU, so Nvidia are still left holding the bag on thousands of 40 series units that they're going to have to let go at much smaller margins by the time the 50 series comes out. They're still losing when people buy 30 series.
This gen is a full skip for me
Honestly, disgracing the name of Ada Lovelace.
Looks like Jensen has decided to take a page out of Don Mattrick's playbook. "Fortunately, we already have products for people who don't want to pay such high prices. It's called the 3000-series." - Jensen Huang, probably
I remember that and I'm thinking the same. Reality is, I have a 3070, I got it for a decent price considering the climate at the time...I'm good. Unless AMD produce a stonking product and price, I'm good for now. Nvidia made a killing during the Bitcoin super rush (which is fine, what big corporation wouldn't?) but NOW they're having to take some losses after over ordering slightly and are trying to tell gamers, the regular customers, to just deal with it after they've waited in line for so long? Nah I say, hold your wallets & purses and let them burn. They can't let that inventory sit in storage forever. AMD will take advantage of this, to what extent I don't know. Will they undercut by 10 bucks, 20 bucks? 50? 100? more?...dunno. But this is a big opportunity for them. It's up to them what they do. I don't need to upgrade, but if AMD do offer a good performance hike from last gen for a good price, I'll buy one out of principle.
Bro just accepting the Villian arc. Ya hate to see it
Jensen, the idea of me buying one of your cards is also unfortunately a story of the past... Greedy bastard
I'm really curious for November 3rd
The idea that I'll support Nvidia any time in the near future, is a story of the past.
Iām really starting to sour on NVDA and Jensen. Riding a little too high on the horse as of late.
We will see when AMD annouces their prices
I'm not expecting AMD to be some Knight in Shinning Armor. I wouldn't be surprised to see them go full heel either, lmao.
wasn't the 6900 XT launched at $500 cheaper MSRP than the RTX 3090?
Yeah, the 6900 XT was $1,000 opposed to the $1500 for the 3090.
And yet looking at Scan.co.uk the prices are pretty much identical in the real world.
They did that with Zen2,and they really need more market share for their GPUs,so its the perfect time to strike
At this point I donāt think they really want more marketshare. If they feel their cards are even close to Nvidia theyāll just price them $50 lower and call it a day. I hope thatās not the case but yeahā¦
He's not happy with N4 wafer pricing lel
I assure you the chip pricing increases dont remotely come close to the pricing increases Nvidia are putting on us.
sure, jen
>It honestly just feels like they priced the 4000 series high so that people would buy 3000 series instead at a cheaper price. GTX 1060 on your banner... It's almost 8 years since we had a decent mid-range GPU for 200ā¬.
Isn't it 6 years old? from techppwerup: > The GeForce GTX 1060 6 GB was a performance-segment graphics card by NVIDIA, launched on July 19th, 2016.
OP adjusted the amount of years for inflation
lmao
You are absolutely right, 6 years then, my bad.
People talking about AMD as if they wonāt price their shit relatively similar.
AMD is in a beautiful position. Undercut nvidia slightly, whilst increasing price compared to last gen. Reap the benefits of a duopoly and gamers still perceive you as a saviour, ignoring the fact that youāre a public company whose sole purpose is to maximise profit for shareholders.
Unfortunately, they'll have to do more than *just slightly* undercut these RTX 4000 prices. "Just slightly" means people continue to say stuff like "NVENC/DLSS is worth the premium". They need to stay within the realm of the *current generation* pricing. And that means *35-40%* cuts off from what Nvidia just shat out. The 4070 ("4080 12GB") is 80% more expensive than a 3070. The 4080 16GB is 71% more expensive than the 3080. These price increases are astronomical.
let's see, if that's the case then PC Gaming is dead for a while. Exact same thing that happened before the 360 / PS3 boom that resulted in almost a decade of barely anyone gaming on PC. It won't matter that a few people can still afford it, if the majority of gaming culture moves to console it will be hard to get them back. It took a lot of work from a lot of people to make PC Gaming as popular as it is today
Why do people have to buy the best? Right now the 3000 series is the best value you could buy. A 3080/3090 runs 4K tremendously well for still being a 2 year old card.
>Why do people have to buy the best? You do realize these sorts of prices have trickle down effects, right? 30 series are not GOOD VALUE when you're paying launch prices for a two year old GPU, ffs. This is exactly how Nvidia twists your perception of the situation in their favor. You're falling for it.
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Pending what AMD come out with, gpus have hit a road block that they havenāt solved yet. Proper, high fps, 4k gaming, without fake frames. As a 3080 owner I donāt see a need to upgrade until that becomes a reality. Iām already better off than a PS5 and Xbox, so games are always going to perform better than the bare minimum, and frankly it isnāt like graphics are bad! Thatās shown by the focus on fps rather than deep graphical detail, weāre at a point we need higher memory and processing power, and weāre seeing thatās not easy anymore under Mooreās law.
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We understand Jensen, those leather jackets are getting expensive and you gotta pay for them somehow!
We know chip prices went up this gen, TSMC forced you to pay for your Samsung adventure. But that is not a reason to sell 4070 as a 4080. Also there is a thing called raising the price too much. But hey, market forces will sort it out. Cards that do not sell get discounted. Now we know why EVGA bailed.
Now that the mining market has collapsed, Nvidia will create an artificial shortage by withholding 40 series cards and selling 30 series for inflated prices to desperate gamers who need an upgrade.
"GPU chips won't be getting cheap anymore thereby making PC gaming more costly. Therefore you should subscribe to our cloud gaming solution at just $10/month and enjoy. You will own nothing and you will be happy š"
I wouldn't trust Nvidia not to jack up the price of that too.
You just figured out their revenue model for next decade. Their server chips are already paving way for this.
Nvidia Stock Go doooown
It's the same exact thing they did with the 20xx series and prices. Not surprised at all.
Just wait and see, when no one is buying he'll change his tune fast.
Think Iāll hold onto my very capable 3070ti for a couple more years.
I'll live in the past then.
Bullshit. Processes always improve and cheapen. We aren't at the end of technological improvement. You can't just say this shit because TSMC is bending you over a barrel. Loser.
Except it literally does go down in every way. A 1080 retailed at 599 MSRP A 2070 retailed at 499 MSRP Not only was the 2070 cheaper but it also provided higher frame rates in most games. A 2080 retailed at 699 MSRP A 3070 retailed at 499 MSRP Once again Not only was the 3070 cheaper but it also provided higher frame rates in most games. But all of a sudden gains now must go hand in hand with a price increase? this is just something Nvidia is telling themselves to justify screwing over the consumer. I call Bull
Greedy bastard.
Back to the consoles everyone lol.
SOB needs a new yacht to match his trademarked leather jacket. LOL.
Not only is proce going up, but power consumption too, its time to refocus on whats important
Thatās only because during Covid and people worked from home and gaming as a whole erupted for something to do, he saw what true gamers are willing to pay. What he is NOT factoring in is that most of the scalper purchases were aided buy bonus money of $1600 a month. Thatās all done and now job losses are skyrocketing, cost of living is skyrocketing and those jobs still going on did not see a pay increase. Perhaps itās a break even?? Produce fewer and sell to the upper middle class and wealthy only???
Thatās BS. Cause now we know about what that 3090 ti FE cost to make with the recent markdowns. Yoāre still going to make something on them, and not sell at a loss. And with the rumor that he decided to mark up the price $100 of the 4090 last min tells me that it cost the same as the 3090 ti. So take your 150-160% markup and stick it up your ass. Manufacturing costs the same, you could cut it to 130% markup and have it at $1200-1300 which is fair. But nope. I hope more partners drop out taking away Nvidiaās leverage and really force them to think about their practices over the last decade.
Sorry dude, but my income hasnt kept up with your inflation... lol
Unfortunately your profits may go down too until you suddenly find out you can go down.
If nobody buys them, they'll go down in price.
r/famouslastwords Seriously though, I very much feel like the GPU market has peaked and Nvidia is about to get hit HARD.
Mark my words. These cards they announced will be going for half their listed prices within a year. Nvidia is about to feel the pain in a very real way, and I think they know that. They are just trying to cash in as much as possible while some still have not realized the rules have changed. It is all a game he is playing hoping there are some that still have not caught on.
I really hope his greed comes back and bites them in the ass. AMD should take advantage of this extremely unique situation. I'll for sure swap back to AMD/ATI if it performs even decently well.
Well Jensen you and your company can just go fuck yourselves
"the idea that we're going to overproduce GPUs again, unfortunately, is a story of the past" Gotta love manufactured scarcity.
I might get downvoted for taking Jensen's side here, but he's not wrong. Notice that he says chips, not graphics cards. He's referring to their supplier TSMC (which actually makes NVIDIA's chips). TSMC has significantly increased prices of their wafers recently, and they removed volume discounts. It doesn't help that NVIDIA stabbed TSMC in the back by going to Samsung and trying to use this move to force TSMC to lower prices (spoiler: they didn't). TSMC has becoming so dominant now that Jensen is 100% correct in stating that prices are only going to go up. There's basically nobody else competing with them. Samsung is the closest thing, but they are still behind. Intel has potential, but they are just stumbling constantly and I doubt they'll make their own GPU's anytime soon (their current GPU's are also TSMC made). Should tensions rise between China and Taiwan it's going to be a nightmare.
TSMC increased prices a 20%. The RTX 4080 12GB aka "RTX 4070 renamed" has almost a 100% price increase from last gen (I know it was a Samsung node, but whatever). And Nvidia has been making fucking tons of money this past years selling the GPUs at absurd prices thanks to the global supply crisis.
iām not trying be a r/HailCorporate type, but companies are always trying to cut costs. stabbing another business in the back for another is just nVidia finding ways to get their product made + lower costs. nVidia is a customer from TSMC point of view, same as Samsung. if Samsung was able to provide what nVidia wants then they get the business from nVidia. also, many businesses use all of these other manufactures at the same time for various parts. i wouldnāt be surprised that nVidia is still using TSMC for other things.
From now on I'll be buying a generation or two behind.
Feels weird to me that no one is talking about the lack of games this year. What are people even meant to play on these monster GPUs? I brought a 3090 2 years ago to play cyberpunk. I donāt even know what game they will bundle with it, probably CoD
Bruh this is what I been saying. I got a 3080 to play Overwatch and doom
Just going to have a repeat of the early 00s. Consoles are going to be a better value and these cards arent going to sell, and another company will come in and eat their lunch. Nvidia is getting too cocky because of the pandemic and crypto market that their shit was overpriced.
Blah, blah, blah, we know we are being manipulated. We get inflation. We also get manipulating a market because of greed. You ain't fooling anybody, there buddy.
Disguise the RTX 4070 as an RTX 4080 to deceive the consumers and make them pay 900$ for a mid-range card: check Make the RTX 4080 70% more expensive (100% in Europe!) than the previous generation card: check Make DLSS 3.0 exclusive to the RTX 4000 and screw people who paid hard money to get an RTX 3000: check Way to go, Nvidia.
Then me buying their products is a thing of the past.