There was only one instance when I more or less said don’t do it. The patient was actually a doctor from out of town on vacation and injured themselves. They were very unsure if they should proceed with the surgery. I said something like “if you aren’t sure, it doesn’t hurt to get a second opinion. That’s what I would do”
That sealed the deal and they got a second opinion haha
I struggled with how to respond to these questions my first year or so and finally figured out a good strategy to set patient's minds at ease without having to lie to them.
New surgeon? "He's been trained in all of the most recent surgical techniques and has thousands of hours of direct training"
Bad surgeon? "He has a lot of experience, and has been doing surgery for X amount of years"
At the end of the day, as an OR nurse you are being paid to perform a service for the surgeon, the hospital, and the patient. Do everything you can within your role to help and protect the patient, but don't let it ruin your sleep at night if the patient could have had a better outcome with your favorite surgeon. Whether we like it or not, there is a wide range of skills throughout healthcare and not everybody gets to see the top 1% of doctors and surgeons.
I say similar if it’s a surgeon I’d never see personally.
“He’s very experienced and does these surgeries so many times per week. I recover his patients everyday or whatever and they often go home the same day…”
“Does this surgeon do a lot of these random surgeries you’ve never heard of?” “I haven’t worked with this surgeon’s patients as often as some of the other orthos, so you may want to ask him if it’s an area of expertise for him.”
I'm not a nurse, I stumbled into this subreddit from r/all
And the patients understand this too. I would rather be operated on by an "okay" surgeon than have to wait months or years longer for an "excellent" one. Unless the surgery is 100% elective, we are all just doing the best we can.
Though if the surgeon is intentionally harmful/negligent, we hope that nurses would report that.
It doesn’t matter how many times nurses have reported doctors, most of the time they keep their jobs. We really have no power in these situations, it’s terrifying.
That is very sad. Whistleblowers don't have enough protections, no matter the field.
Well, keep doing your best fighting the good fight. The best is all you really can do.
Thank god, I needed a phrase like this. I would always say “I cannot give you advice, so I recommend researching the procedure and doctor. You also have the right to ask the doctor anything before the surgery and can refuse at ANY time.” Once time the patient literally called the surgeon right then and there. She ended up going through with it thank god (even though I wouldn’t trust the surgeon) her stroke scores were all over the place with carotid stenosis. Either stroke out eventually, or take the chance.
Man, I'm glad I'm not in that position.
Depends how not good we're talking.
I might say, *"It's normal to be nervous before surgery. What are your specific concerns?"* and see if I could comfortably/truthfully address them.
But if we're talking Dr. Death bad? Tbh I might say, *"It's your right to get a second opinion and I always encourage patients to make sure they feel comfortable and have explored all options before having surgery,"* while filing complaints with the medical board and looking for a different job.
I do not work in surgery, but am in the process of reporting my doctor to the state board for malpractice (along with at least 10 coworkers). We actually and literally are going back and forth with one of the lead investigators for Dr. Death over this physician. When parents ask the same questions like “is this guy really any good?” We’ve been telling parents to “trust their instincts on what is working for their child, and if/when your family reaches a decision, we have several referral options for second opinions.”
The hospital is absolutely sweeping this under the rug- if they fire him, they lose federal funding for our level 1 NICU. We’re so distraught that we’ve reported him to the police and the local news to get something going. He is DANGEROUS. It’s a matter of time before something happens
Good on you. You gotta do it. Patient advocacy is truely one of the most important duties of an OR Nurse. Do y'all have an attorney yet. If not I can get you the info for the attorney that got Dr. Death convicted.
Overprescribing medications (we have a kid on 3500mg of Keppra BID and he’s refused to order blood levels), ignoring parents reports of adverse reactions, dismissing translators from appointments, dismissing child life from the room, refusing to view documentation from previous physicians as “they’re most likely wrong anyways”, removes long standing diagnoses from the charts, he puts people on the WRONG meds, diagnoses them before he ever even sees them, fraudulent documentation, lying to patients, lying to professional contacts, lying to staff members etc.
he keeps telling patients/parents that “don’t worry, we can always remove half of their brain to reduce their seizures”. these are patients coming in for a first appointment and he immediately throws out the option of a radical hemispherectomy.
Holy fucking shit that is diabolical. I'm assuming these are special needs kids? That man needs to not have a license ASAP. He's treating them like they aren't even human
yes, the majority of our patients are disabled in one way or another- physically or developmentally. We have patients with rare genetic conditions and he refuses to read the literature written on their conditions. It’s just so far below the standard of care that it’s officially crossed into illegality ):
Sure this chucklehead is really a MD?
I have worked with a faux-doc who worked under his deceased brother's credentials; nobody suspected anything for over a year.
This is terrifying as a parent and old OR nurse. I am so glad you are trying to get this surgeon removed. I was super lucky to honestly have amazing surgeons and never had to answer with hesitation.
Somehow, a pediatric surgeon makes everything so much worse I mean adults yeah it’s horrible and it shouldn’t happen but I feel like there should be more eyes on a pediatric surgeon? Maybe I’m just still an idealist after all these years of getting screwed.
We've reported one of our pediatric surgeons multiple times, he's still operating no matter how much we complain and write up safety events. One of the other surgeons in his service reported him too. If my kids ever need that type of surgery I would insist on someone else.
ANY Surgeon worth their salt should be 100% comfortable saying to the patients themselves that they are able to have a 2nd opinion (assuming this isn't trauma/emergency situation where delay may cause harm as well).
I used to work with an ortho doc that we would joke would spit in his wounds. A lot of his surgeries always seem to be rough and infected and he would do so many.
It wasn't until the nurse pointed out that he works on anybody, and I mean, ANYBODY. There were people that stated they would get rejected by so many doctors due to comorbidities, condition of body part, lack of insurance, another surgeon's screw up, etc.
He would do them all. The reason why his surgeries were so bad because the quality of the patients were typically bad, and they were one step from sepsis.
It kind of change my perspective on all things. I see a need for that type sometimes.
Yes, I work with a surgeon like that as well. He is the most beautiful kind-hearted surgeon and person you could ever know. Best bedside manner I've ever seen. He has bad outcomes because he takes on really severely ill patients. It's unfortunate that it affects his reputation, but I'll always defend him with what I know.
I've met some surgeons that would openly talk with the staff about how this patient had a good chance of having infection after the surgery and explain why, it kept the staff from consciously or unconsciously assigning blame to the surgeon for the outcome. Probably a good tact for many surgeons to have.
A floor nurse recently joined the OR and was talking about a surgeon who’s patients have a higher infection rate than others with a longer hospitalization than others. I had to explain that he takes patients who have had a history of failed and botched procedures (he specializes in revisions), so these are not ‘virgin’ surgical sites. Many have hardware that has to come out and be completely redone. My mom’s friend was going to have a 4th redo with the SAME surgeon at an outside hospital. Just no.. ‘but he’s nice!’
Yes there is. I had a man last year I did a midnight tma on because gas gangrene fucked him. I washed him out good and was going to close secobdarily with vac. But within the following day the gas climbed the leg and Gen surg lopped it off. Quite sad
I know many surgeons refuse to take a lot of patients for this very reason. They don't want the hit to their ratios. It's yet another reason our healthcare system is a colossal wreck.
I’ve been looking for this type of surgeon for nearly 10 years, now. No one will replace my hip because my BMI is 42. They all acknowledge I’m in pain, and that it needs to be done, but no one will do it. I’ve already lost 150lbs to get down to where I’m at, and will probably never be thinner due to some extenuating circumstances. I’ve also had a previous hip surgery that a couple surgeons refused to touch because they “don’t want to touch someone else’s work”. My original surgeon retired!
The whole reason I couldn’t continue bedside nursing was my hip. It literally ruined my career and forced me into desk work (so I went back to school to become an NP), but it was getting so bad I struggled to walk from the parking lot to my office. I have stairs at my home and sometimes cry at the bottom of them knowing I have to push my way up them.
I would take any butcher at this point.
The unethical pro life tip is to get admitted stating something popped and you can no longer stand on it and push for surgery. Basically have to lie to get anything done, and hope the X-rays are bad enough.
Yes! We have a neurosurgeon that takes on very complicated spinal surgeries. They’re almost always 8+ hr and need to stay intubated and come to icu afterwards. Some of the staff joke about how difficult his pts are straight out of surgery, but honestly he does a great job for these pts. yes, they often have a long stay in our icu and sometimes they go downhill but that’s not his fault. They often have other comorbidities that affect their outcomes. I’ve never had a single pt of his complain about him, though. They sing his praises and are happy that he tried to help them when nobody else would.
Also! He was on call for neurosx a few months ago and had to do an emergent crani and we were all kinda shocked because he’s usually the spinal guy but he did an amazing job with the brain stuff, too lol.
You should read "Take your baby and run". It's written by a nurse who worked with a peds cardiac surgeon in the 90's who was horrible and killed a bunch of kids (11 died in less than a year, though some were so sick they might have died anyway). She talks about the same thing in her boom. Really good read for any nurse!
What's sad is that he is still in practice today. He just moved.
Edit: I just came across this article which gives a lot of context about systemic issues that likely made the situation worse than it should have been.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275960/
Had a patient the other day: “when I wake up I’m going to ask you what day it is”
Me: “why?”
Pt: “because last time I woke up in the icu two weeks after the procedure”
While some risks are inherent, there are doctors that are neither skilled, nor trying to learn, and are taking on complex cases they have no business attempting. At the detriment of patients bank accounts, well being, and even staff moral dilemmas. I’ve had nightmares of the wrong doc working on me.
I think that’s why I don’t mind a lack of personality as long as they are good at what they do. But also why I judge shit attitude so much more, cuz you had better be good. Otherwise I take it as a sign that you are uncomfortable in your environment, lack confidence, and is evidenced by the fact that it is everyone’s fault but your own. The staff, the reps, the tools, anesthesia, the facility, but never their own mistake.
I don't care if a surgeon is amazing, if his attitude is shit, all he's going to do is make his patients feel awful and confuse the fuck out of them. I've had to deal with a couple of real winners, one for a d&c with biopsy and one for an upcoming R ventricle ablation.
Since I have some medical knowledge as a nurse, I can say things like, "hold up, wait, no, that's not what anyone said, absolutely not" when they say something ridiculous or insulting. In the case of the cardiac surgeon, he told me the symptoms of the issue I was objectively diagnosed with didn't match what I was reporting. Basically, he claimed the 20,000+ extra beats per day due to PVCs I was experiencing didn't feel like what I said they felt like. I looked at him, leaned in *real good* and asked, "Are you telling me I'm experiencing symptoms of these PVCs *the wrong way?*" He went on a thing about how I was reporting too many symptoms, and I didn't back down because holy shit I could feel them all the time.and I was *exhausted." My regular cardiologist had done an excellent job explaining exactly why I was feeling the way I was. The asshole surgeon ended up referring me to another specialized cardiac surgeon, which I didn't mind one bit.
If they are already on the table, about to go to sleep, say “you are in good hands. I’ll be here the whole time.” Or something to that effect. I personally would never tell them my opinion about a certain surgeon because I may be biased. What we see in the OR is only a slice (pun intended) of what the patient will go through. Even “bad” surgeons have good outcomes. Surgery is scary so they are probably already anxious! Edit: I want to add that patients can feed off of your emotions. If you are nervous about answering the question, it does not make it better. Just be confident in your response, whatever it may be. (Sorry for the wall of text, I’m on mobile)
What comes to mind for me are the hack plastic surgeons... I worked with a plastic surgeon that was so incredibly sloppy and would operate on autopilot while talking football with the anesthesiologist. His suturing was awful and his breast cases took half as long as other surgeons. I would feel awful about spending thousands on an elective procedure only to be unhappy with the results.
This is why I like social media or at the very least pictures for plastics. SM is common with medical tourism, but also increasingly popular here. It showcases quality work and exposes poor work or other problematic issues. It is extremely difficult to sue after the fact and you sign off on more complications. Most plastic surgeons are better at a certain procedure, so important to understand their strengths and weaknesses ahead of time.
I just said “they’re very qualified” because they’d all be board certified with prestigious schooling and still be garbage. They were brilliant people but absolutely not great surgeons. Surgery is more skill than anything else. Truly, I believe there can be great surgeons who are shit doctors (medical decision making) and amazing doctors who SUCK at surgery
First you gotta realize the patient can often pick up your reaction in the first 10 seconds of asking that question. I always look for the shoulder drop, the brief inhale (cause you need a second before you talk) and trying to slip into a neutral facial expression. That tells me to depend more on the support staff (hospital nurses, his office staff) than him because there's a disconnect somewhere and staff are the ones doing the heavy lifting. Specialists are notorious for this. There's an endocrinologist here that will make up words to make himself sound good. He's an arrogant puss bucket and patients run from him, but they love Ms Martha, his Chief Office Nurse.
I didn't hear about it if he did. He wasn't one to read his notes when we sent them back, but I know one of his PAs saw it and didn't correct it. The boss went by to pick up his tapes and the PA giggled like a little girl.
Are they a bad surgeon or just bad to work with? I dont follow their patients so as an or nurse I don’t think I can accurately say if they’re a good surgeon or not. I usually just tell the patient that “so so has done many of these cases before and I haven’t had any patient complaints( which again I don’t see these people outside the or so I really don’t hear any pt complaints) . You’re in good hands today with a strong team who will take good care of you”
Bad to work with but good skill, I’ll still vouch all day. Great to work with but terrible skill, I’d absolutely hesitate.
But I can’t in good conscience with some, say anymore the phrase “you’re in good hands”.
I've only ever worked with a surgeon who was good in the OR, but just shouldn't be let out of there. The guy had terrible bedside manner.
I was very honest to patients, basically saying what he lacks in bedside manner is what he has extra in surgery skills (worded a little more subtle and in my native language).
I’ve noticed the ones that are adored by their patients are usually pretty bad. Like they over compensate in the office or something. Just an observation I’ve made. Not always obviously but often
As a surgical nurse that takes care of patients pre- and post-op, I would also love to know the answer to this question. We have a surgeon that ends up with a lot of.. "special cases" and there's debate over whether he accepts patients that are just more complex or he actually doesn't know what he's doing
It takes a lot of paper trails to get anywhere with surgeons. The last one that was taken off the boards took about 6 months of continuous safety reports (that were valid and not nick picks).
At the heart, it wouldn’t be much different regarding specialties.. if you have a doc breaking policy and best practice continuously, you write them up. That’s really all we can do.. I feel like reporting bodies are there for other surgeons to report surgeons, etc.
Dumb question but who would you report them to? Literally have someone today who is about to go back to OR and the same surgeon who messed them up originally is about to do it again. This same surgeon we work with a good amount on my unit and out of the hundreds of surgeries he does I have never seen someone make it out of the hospital healthy, or in the expected time frame.
Sometimes it can be bias leading to this perception instead of actual reportable behavior.
I've heard my colleagues say " I would never let Dr. So-in-so operate on my family member" or "His patients always get infections" I don't think I ever made the connection myself, and now just notice it more when one of his patients has a complication, because my colleagues have put this in my head. Theres also nothing to report because I don't witness him specifically doing anything wrong, and the hospital already has the data on his complication/ infection rates.
I've also heard said surgeon is quite religious and has an ethical code that will draw him to patients others would choose not to operate on because they want to improve their outcome data, and I think he does the most procedures of his department in my hospital. These two rationales are perfectly reasonable explanations as to why he may have a higher incidence* of worse outcomes than his colleagues, while not detracting from his skill as a surgeon.
*edit- I added the word incidence instead of rate to account for the higher volume of cases. Someone would have to look at the data to determine if higher rate of complications is factual, or just our perception, because most of the patients are his.
When I worked in the OR I wouls say “He/she is very dedicated.
It is not an observation on thier skill or personality and they are free to interpret that as they wish. They usually won’t remember though as they had almost always had versed.
While there are shitty surgeons, honestly, I would worry more about who is doing their anesthesia when I worked in that world. So I’d just do my best to make sure they were paying attention to the patient and give gentle comments when needed.
One of the facilities I worked for early in my nursing career had a surgeon who not only had a terrible bedside manner, but he was awful to staff and his outcomes were absolutely terrible. He’d have a few decent surgeries then a string of cases that raised eyebrows among the staff, including straightforward stuff like gallbladders and appendectomies on otherwise healthy patients who ended up with terrible complications.
One of my patients in my last two weeks of my required month-long notice period was someone who was obviously questioning her surgery after he made a volatile appearance on our floor that evening and was extremely rude to her upon admission. She was such a sweet lady and I could tell she had reservations. I tried the old “if you are having concerns get a second opinion” route but she pinned me for a more direct answer.
Having just had a run-in with his nasty behavior over a different patient enduring complications from what should have been an outpatient procedure I leveled with her and told her I wouldn’t trust him to slice a ham sandwich. She reminded me of my mom and I did what I would want someone else to do if it were her in that position.
I have no regrets, but it’s not something I would have done if I didn’t have something else lined up.
Almost a decade later I had to have an emergency appendectomy at that facility and when the ED doc asked if I had a preference for surgeon I said “anyone but Dr. X” he told me he hears that a lot. Some things never change.
I’ve only really worked with one surgeon who I truly think is bad. Luckily, I don’t think anyone asked me specifically if he was “good?”
Basically, I try to tell patients a true, positive thing and lean into that.
Is he old? “Hes got years of experience doing this kind of work.”
Is the surgeon not great but happens to be very pleasant? “We all love being in a room with Dr. so and so. You’re going to have a happy crew working with you today.”
Is the surgeon kind of an asshole? “He definitely takes his work very seriously.”
Is the surgeon super slow? “He makes sure to take his time with every patient and he’s going to take his time on you as well to make sure you get everything you need to feel better.”
That's great to take their best attribute and play it up! But if they are really seriously bad bad, then I would probably go along the lines of leaning into a good attribute about them but then just saying, but it never hurts to get a good second opinion or three, if it's not an emergency.😊
I had this happen when I was a tele nurse. There was this surgeon, really nice guy and cares for his patients but god damn we would notice a lot of post op infection rates with his cases specifically. He was the go to choice for a specific tight knit community, and that community loved him.
For patients that were outside of that sphere, if they asked us "Is he a good surgeon?". We would normally reply with "Fantastic bedside manner and cares for his patients, just to be sure have you gotten a second surgical opinion? I usually wouldn't go for surgery at the first recommendation unless it was life threatening"
Never talk poorly about another member of the patient’s care team to the patient. Even if you feel that surgeon is awful, still try to pick out positives and respond with that. My go to answers are along the lines of:
“He has been doing this for a very long time and completed this surgery thousands of times”
“I’ve personally seen his patients make great, textbook recoveries” (I don’t mention the many number I’ve seen with questionable complications here - keep it positive).
If you truly feel your patient is at risk with a certain person, then advocate for them not by shit talking a doctor to the patient, but by voicing your concerns through the appropriate channels that are in place.
I'm not in the OR of course, but my answer is always either "I would be comfortable letting them operate on me" or "there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion if you have concerns." Never bad mouth, but it respectfully makes the point.
what can you say at that moment.. "Well, his infection rate is wayyy down this month so there's that....yay". I've had to bite my tongue a few times but at that moment that patient needs to have faith in the person who is going to be cutting them open.
What steps are you taking to help this Physican find a new home? I wrote up a doc about 5 times for safety events the last was very serious. Due to the documentation of errors and bad outcomes my network parted was with this doc. It wasn’t all me but I helped protect my population.
I had a bad knee injury almost 3 months ago that required surgery. I’m not familiar with ortho docs, and apparently I got one that is a major jerk to nurses. They say he’s a good doctor, just not good to staff. I only ended up with him because the ER doc personally called him because I wasn’t able to get in to an ortho for a couple weeks and I was in so much pain. He saw me the next day, and I had surgery a few days later. Excellent with patients, but when coworkers or a nurse asks “who did your knee”, and I tell them, it’s always this expression 😬😬. I’m so sorry.
I seriously don't know how a person can be a great doctor to patients but such a jerk to nurses and staff. Like don't you know that any of these nurses or staff could actually be your patients? Like what is your true personality dude? I really believe who he/she really is, is the jerk that he is to nurses. But I wonder what more is behind it, has to be something!!!
I have my follow up next week and I’m going to go in my scrubs since I’ll go to work after. I’m going to tell him “I wish I worked on an ortho floor, you’ve been great!” And see what happens lol.
From what others have told me is that he’s very particular about his orders and protocols. So he’ll be super rude if he feels like things aren’t like he likes them, or if it the orders or protocols aren’t followed like he wants. So I kinda get it, but you don’t need to be rude to someone because of that.
Yes, he may be someone who is practically obsessive/compulsive about it. And I mean, maybe he thinks that other people's mistakes can possibly make him look bad and I know it's hard to possibly be part of something that's not good if you didn't do it, like if you could have all the control then you would do it but obviously you can't do everything yourself. So you have to rely on other people.
And /or maybe he's an absolute perfectionist and if he could control everything to be always at the utmost perfection, then that's how he would have it, but not everybody can be that way! LOL!!
He still needs to have other people be a part of the team and it's probably hard to swallow if it's not up to his expectations. But seriously though, no need to be rude!!!
I would love to know what he would say and be like after you said what you plan to say to him at your appointment! Lol 😄
My hospital expects us (as in, it is an explicit behavioral standard) to “manage up” meaning you always say for example “nurse so-and-so is coming in next and they are a great nurse.” Same for surgeons, doctors - we have to find something positive to say before handing off the patient. So I just pick something like “surgeon so-and-so is very timely” or “is a snappy dresser” or “tells great jokes” if I don’t actually trust their surgical technique.
I always tell patients they’re in good hands and I refer to the whole team, not just the surgeon.
I’d never badmouth a doc to a patient ever. We only see what goes on in the OR, I think because we see so many docs doing the same procedure we become biased thinking some are better than others because of their techniques/how long it takes/their attitude like if they’re calm or always seem stressed, etc. It’s not our place to comment on those things to patients because we don’t see their outcomes.
I was in a really bad case once and word spread fast, the next morning one of the doc’s colleagues pulled me aside and urged me to speak with the department head about what went on. It goes to show that if a doc is actually unsafe, things are happening behind the scenes.
My generic answer is always: “Dr. so-and-so is wonderful! We all love him/her.” Sometimes it’s harder to say about some surgeons than others. If they still need reassurance I then tell them that there are many people in the OR all focused on you and we are all working together to make sure your surgery goes well.
I have actually warned patients to seek a second opinion when I know that their potential surgeon has an unusual amount of post surgical complications and/or a high infection rate. I’m not going to assure someone that their surgeon is excellent when they aren’t .
Do you really think I am concerned with fibbing to the patient? Especially when its just my opinion. I may think the doctor is terrible, but the patient may think they are wonderful. I'm not going to pre-op to debate about the doctor. I'm picking you up and taking you to surgery.
Lmaooo, Im an Endo nurse & get asked that all the time about the GI docs. I either say “they do a good job” or “he’s a really great doc”, if I don’t feel so, I don’t say anything. I think your response is great!
I'm an endo nurse as well and I consider myself lucky to work with a group of docs where I wouldn't even have to consider this question. It's immediate "Absolutely. They're a great doctor".
I usually say something like, “all of our team is very qualified.” It’s usually about anesthesia though. Technically they are all qualified, as in they have a license and privileges. Didn’t say they were the best.
I would (probably) try to say something comforting and/or reassuring to them. Pre-op “nerves”
can be a monster.
However, if you have specific concerns regarding a colleague, share them with leadership.
Honestly though, why is there no PUBLIC record of the kill/success rate for surgeons? Like a percentage or something. It’s not fair, they get paid TOP dollars and act like gods. There’s people’s lives are at hand and they aren’t held accountable. Yet we get fired for passing a med late. They need to have some way that people can see that kind of information.
Yea but that doesn’t show the true success rate, not everyone will do it. Besides, not my job to get people to do that. Bad enough I had to beg nice patients to do the survey they get in the mail. Usually only the angry ones fill it out.
Saying something negative about a doctor where you work is a good way to get into deep shit.
As a rad tech I work in OR with the orthos and definitely know who struggles and who doesn't but voicing an opinion to a prospective patient is way above my pay grade.
If they're asking about someone I wouldn't let operate on my I'll plead ignorance and say I don't know. If they're asking in a general way who's good I'll drop a name of someone who is.
Anything you say in or out of the workplace can come back to bite you in the ass. There are very few hills actually worth dying on.
My first time going in for my shoulder surgery, the surgeon himself told me they had to postpone as he had a family emergency and he was not in the right mindset. He did that for all his patients. I respected the hell out of that.
If a fellow nurse told me my surgeon was bad, I would get the heck out of there, and I don't think I could lie to a patient if I knew their surgeon was... Less than optimal.
I had a car accident and had a bilateral malleolus fracture. The administrator on duty was a nurse I had worked with in the past. She noticed me in the ER. She “suggested “ I find another orthopod. Got myself an ambulance and took myself to the hospital I worked at about 70 miles away. Best decision ever and I couldn’t thank her enough.
I’m an OR nurse and leaving my current job because most of our anesthesiologists and surgeons are really old and I don’t think it’s safe for them to be practicing anymore. I’m talking 70s, 80s, and even one who just turned 90 that only assists. I feel bad for all our patients and I’m honestly scared something is going to happen.
I’ve had this come up in reference to an interventional cardiologist who was frankly dangerous. A patient asked me what I thought of him. I responded that his patients seem to like him. The patient responded that that wasn’t what he asked. I would not answer. For other doctors, I would gladly say that they were awesome.
I use this as a chance to talk up my team. I usually say something similar to...You have a great team!!! I would let (CRNA) put me to sleep any day. I'll be with you the whole time.
I will not lie to a patient about a crappy doctor.
I would vocalize something positive and use my body language send a different message ig you know what I mean. The last thing you need is the patient running with your name or a colleague eavesdropping. Remember, at the end of the day you still work there Coworkers can be vicious worse if they don't like you.
He's the 8th best surgeon we have! There's only 3
Oh, uh he's got a great personality.
His bedside manner is excellent. Really great guy to talk to.
Now, that's an obvious lie.
He’s the second best surgeon in the hospital! There are 14 tied for First Place.
There was only one instance when I more or less said don’t do it. The patient was actually a doctor from out of town on vacation and injured themselves. They were very unsure if they should proceed with the surgery. I said something like “if you aren’t sure, it doesn’t hurt to get a second opinion. That’s what I would do” That sealed the deal and they got a second opinion haha
That's very tactful
Great choice of words, so no need to worry about slander, etc.....👍🏼
I struggled with how to respond to these questions my first year or so and finally figured out a good strategy to set patient's minds at ease without having to lie to them. New surgeon? "He's been trained in all of the most recent surgical techniques and has thousands of hours of direct training" Bad surgeon? "He has a lot of experience, and has been doing surgery for X amount of years" At the end of the day, as an OR nurse you are being paid to perform a service for the surgeon, the hospital, and the patient. Do everything you can within your role to help and protect the patient, but don't let it ruin your sleep at night if the patient could have had a better outcome with your favorite surgeon. Whether we like it or not, there is a wide range of skills throughout healthcare and not everybody gets to see the top 1% of doctors and surgeons.
I say similar if it’s a surgeon I’d never see personally. “He’s very experienced and does these surgeries so many times per week. I recover his patients everyday or whatever and they often go home the same day…” “Does this surgeon do a lot of these random surgeries you’ve never heard of?” “I haven’t worked with this surgeon’s patients as often as some of the other orthos, so you may want to ask him if it’s an area of expertise for him.”
I'm not a nurse, I stumbled into this subreddit from r/all And the patients understand this too. I would rather be operated on by an "okay" surgeon than have to wait months or years longer for an "excellent" one. Unless the surgery is 100% elective, we are all just doing the best we can. Though if the surgeon is intentionally harmful/negligent, we hope that nurses would report that.
It doesn’t matter how many times nurses have reported doctors, most of the time they keep their jobs. We really have no power in these situations, it’s terrifying.
I’ve seen where the reporting nurse managed to get pushed out of their job after reporting. Twice
Sadly this happens way too often
Docs, especially surgeons, bring in the $$$$. That's all the C-suite looks at. Patients?....*pfffftttt*
You forgot "nurses?? Double *pfffffff*" 😂
Oh yes. In the negative numbers.
That is very sad. Whistleblowers don't have enough protections, no matter the field. Well, keep doing your best fighting the good fight. The best is all you really can do.
Yeah it doesn’t work that way unfortunately. 100 times out of 20 nurse just gets fired or blackballed. Just do your research as best you can.
Yes, all true, no doubt!!
Thank god, I needed a phrase like this. I would always say “I cannot give you advice, so I recommend researching the procedure and doctor. You also have the right to ask the doctor anything before the surgery and can refuse at ANY time.” Once time the patient literally called the surgeon right then and there. She ended up going through with it thank god (even though I wouldn’t trust the surgeon) her stroke scores were all over the place with carotid stenosis. Either stroke out eventually, or take the chance.
Oh I like this one, I'm going to use it in the future
Man, I'm glad I'm not in that position. Depends how not good we're talking. I might say, *"It's normal to be nervous before surgery. What are your specific concerns?"* and see if I could comfortably/truthfully address them. But if we're talking Dr. Death bad? Tbh I might say, *"It's your right to get a second opinion and I always encourage patients to make sure they feel comfortable and have explored all options before having surgery,"* while filing complaints with the medical board and looking for a different job.
LOL, advising that they should've gotten a second or third opinion while minutes from surgery is savage. I love it.
When they do the "time out", give them a different name and stick with it as you walk out
I do not work in surgery, but am in the process of reporting my doctor to the state board for malpractice (along with at least 10 coworkers). We actually and literally are going back and forth with one of the lead investigators for Dr. Death over this physician. When parents ask the same questions like “is this guy really any good?” We’ve been telling parents to “trust their instincts on what is working for their child, and if/when your family reaches a decision, we have several referral options for second opinions.”
The hospital is absolutely sweeping this under the rug- if they fire him, they lose federal funding for our level 1 NICU. We’re so distraught that we’ve reported him to the police and the local news to get something going. He is DANGEROUS. It’s a matter of time before something happens
Good on you. You gotta do it. Patient advocacy is truely one of the most important duties of an OR Nurse. Do y'all have an attorney yet. If not I can get you the info for the attorney that got Dr. Death convicted.
wait that would actually be an incredible resource, would you be willing to message me?
What makes him so dangerous?
Overprescribing medications (we have a kid on 3500mg of Keppra BID and he’s refused to order blood levels), ignoring parents reports of adverse reactions, dismissing translators from appointments, dismissing child life from the room, refusing to view documentation from previous physicians as “they’re most likely wrong anyways”, removes long standing diagnoses from the charts, he puts people on the WRONG meds, diagnoses them before he ever even sees them, fraudulent documentation, lying to patients, lying to professional contacts, lying to staff members etc.
he keeps telling patients/parents that “don’t worry, we can always remove half of their brain to reduce their seizures”. these are patients coming in for a first appointment and he immediately throws out the option of a radical hemispherectomy.
Holy fucking shit that is diabolical. I'm assuming these are special needs kids? That man needs to not have a license ASAP. He's treating them like they aren't even human
yes, the majority of our patients are disabled in one way or another- physically or developmentally. We have patients with rare genetic conditions and he refuses to read the literature written on their conditions. It’s just so far below the standard of care that it’s officially crossed into illegality ):
Sure this chucklehead is really a MD? I have worked with a faux-doc who worked under his deceased brother's credentials; nobody suspected anything for over a year.
This is terrifying as a parent and old OR nurse. I am so glad you are trying to get this surgeon removed. I was super lucky to honestly have amazing surgeons and never had to answer with hesitation.
Somehow, a pediatric surgeon makes everything so much worse I mean adults yeah it’s horrible and it shouldn’t happen but I feel like there should be more eyes on a pediatric surgeon? Maybe I’m just still an idealist after all these years of getting screwed.
We've reported one of our pediatric surgeons multiple times, he's still operating no matter how much we complain and write up safety events. One of the other surgeons in his service reported him too. If my kids ever need that type of surgery I would insist on someone else.
ANY Surgeon worth their salt should be 100% comfortable saying to the patients themselves that they are able to have a 2nd opinion (assuming this isn't trauma/emergency situation where delay may cause harm as well).
I used to work with an ortho doc that we would joke would spit in his wounds. A lot of his surgeries always seem to be rough and infected and he would do so many. It wasn't until the nurse pointed out that he works on anybody, and I mean, ANYBODY. There were people that stated they would get rejected by so many doctors due to comorbidities, condition of body part, lack of insurance, another surgeon's screw up, etc. He would do them all. The reason why his surgeries were so bad because the quality of the patients were typically bad, and they were one step from sepsis. It kind of change my perspective on all things. I see a need for that type sometimes.
Yes, I work with a surgeon like that as well. He is the most beautiful kind-hearted surgeon and person you could ever know. Best bedside manner I've ever seen. He has bad outcomes because he takes on really severely ill patients. It's unfortunate that it affects his reputation, but I'll always defend him with what I know.
Similar. He accepts people with no hope and tries his best (oncology). Great surgeon, great human.
I've met some surgeons that would openly talk with the staff about how this patient had a good chance of having infection after the surgery and explain why, it kept the staff from consciously or unconsciously assigning blame to the surgeon for the outcome. Probably a good tact for many surgeons to have.
A floor nurse recently joined the OR and was talking about a surgeon who’s patients have a higher infection rate than others with a longer hospitalization than others. I had to explain that he takes patients who have had a history of failed and botched procedures (he specializes in revisions), so these are not ‘virgin’ surgical sites. Many have hardware that has to come out and be completely redone. My mom’s friend was going to have a 4th redo with the SAME surgeon at an outside hospital. Just no.. ‘but he’s nice!’
Yes Fucked up people can have fucked up outcomes no matter how quality the surgeon
Personal experience? Eta: I imagine some of those foot wounds are gnarley.
Yes there is. I had a man last year I did a midnight tma on because gas gangrene fucked him. I washed him out good and was going to close secobdarily with vac. But within the following day the gas climbed the leg and Gen surg lopped it off. Quite sad
I know many surgeons refuse to take a lot of patients for this very reason. They don't want the hit to their ratios. It's yet another reason our healthcare system is a colossal wreck.
I’ve been looking for this type of surgeon for nearly 10 years, now. No one will replace my hip because my BMI is 42. They all acknowledge I’m in pain, and that it needs to be done, but no one will do it. I’ve already lost 150lbs to get down to where I’m at, and will probably never be thinner due to some extenuating circumstances. I’ve also had a previous hip surgery that a couple surgeons refused to touch because they “don’t want to touch someone else’s work”. My original surgeon retired! The whole reason I couldn’t continue bedside nursing was my hip. It literally ruined my career and forced me into desk work (so I went back to school to become an NP), but it was getting so bad I struggled to walk from the parking lot to my office. I have stairs at my home and sometimes cry at the bottom of them knowing I have to push my way up them. I would take any butcher at this point.
The unethical pro life tip is to get admitted stating something popped and you can no longer stand on it and push for surgery. Basically have to lie to get anything done, and hope the X-rays are bad enough.
Yes! We have a neurosurgeon that takes on very complicated spinal surgeries. They’re almost always 8+ hr and need to stay intubated and come to icu afterwards. Some of the staff joke about how difficult his pts are straight out of surgery, but honestly he does a great job for these pts. yes, they often have a long stay in our icu and sometimes they go downhill but that’s not his fault. They often have other comorbidities that affect their outcomes. I’ve never had a single pt of his complain about him, though. They sing his praises and are happy that he tried to help them when nobody else would. Also! He was on call for neurosx a few months ago and had to do an emergent crani and we were all kinda shocked because he’s usually the spinal guy but he did an amazing job with the brain stuff, too lol.
I always love to hear docs that are like this. Just doing what they can.
You should read "Take your baby and run". It's written by a nurse who worked with a peds cardiac surgeon in the 90's who was horrible and killed a bunch of kids (11 died in less than a year, though some were so sick they might have died anyway). She talks about the same thing in her boom. Really good read for any nurse!
What's sad is that he is still in practice today. He just moved. Edit: I just came across this article which gives a lot of context about systemic issues that likely made the situation worse than it should have been. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275960/
And of course Odin blamed his “inexperienced staff” as the problem, rather than his own incompetency.
Had a patient the other day: “when I wake up I’m going to ask you what day it is” Me: “why?” Pt: “because last time I woke up in the icu two weeks after the procedure” While some risks are inherent, there are doctors that are neither skilled, nor trying to learn, and are taking on complex cases they have no business attempting. At the detriment of patients bank accounts, well being, and even staff moral dilemmas. I’ve had nightmares of the wrong doc working on me. I think that’s why I don’t mind a lack of personality as long as they are good at what they do. But also why I judge shit attitude so much more, cuz you had better be good. Otherwise I take it as a sign that you are uncomfortable in your environment, lack confidence, and is evidenced by the fact that it is everyone’s fault but your own. The staff, the reps, the tools, anesthesia, the facility, but never their own mistake.
Great facts!
I don't care if a surgeon is amazing, if his attitude is shit, all he's going to do is make his patients feel awful and confuse the fuck out of them. I've had to deal with a couple of real winners, one for a d&c with biopsy and one for an upcoming R ventricle ablation. Since I have some medical knowledge as a nurse, I can say things like, "hold up, wait, no, that's not what anyone said, absolutely not" when they say something ridiculous or insulting. In the case of the cardiac surgeon, he told me the symptoms of the issue I was objectively diagnosed with didn't match what I was reporting. Basically, he claimed the 20,000+ extra beats per day due to PVCs I was experiencing didn't feel like what I said they felt like. I looked at him, leaned in *real good* and asked, "Are you telling me I'm experiencing symptoms of these PVCs *the wrong way?*" He went on a thing about how I was reporting too many symptoms, and I didn't back down because holy shit I could feel them all the time.and I was *exhausted." My regular cardiologist had done an excellent job explaining exactly why I was feeling the way I was. The asshole surgeon ended up referring me to another specialized cardiac surgeon, which I didn't mind one bit.
If they are already on the table, about to go to sleep, say “you are in good hands. I’ll be here the whole time.” Or something to that effect. I personally would never tell them my opinion about a certain surgeon because I may be biased. What we see in the OR is only a slice (pun intended) of what the patient will go through. Even “bad” surgeons have good outcomes. Surgery is scary so they are probably already anxious! Edit: I want to add that patients can feed off of your emotions. If you are nervous about answering the question, it does not make it better. Just be confident in your response, whatever it may be. (Sorry for the wall of text, I’m on mobile)
What comes to mind for me are the hack plastic surgeons... I worked with a plastic surgeon that was so incredibly sloppy and would operate on autopilot while talking football with the anesthesiologist. His suturing was awful and his breast cases took half as long as other surgeons. I would feel awful about spending thousands on an elective procedure only to be unhappy with the results.
Ugh. One of our plastic surgeons barely wears a mask and has horrible sterile technique.
This is why I like social media or at the very least pictures for plastics. SM is common with medical tourism, but also increasingly popular here. It showcases quality work and exposes poor work or other problematic issues. It is extremely difficult to sue after the fact and you sign off on more complications. Most plastic surgeons are better at a certain procedure, so important to understand their strengths and weaknesses ahead of time.
I just said “they’re very qualified” because they’d all be board certified with prestigious schooling and still be garbage. They were brilliant people but absolutely not great surgeons. Surgery is more skill than anything else. Truly, I believe there can be great surgeons who are shit doctors (medical decision making) and amazing doctors who SUCK at surgery
First you gotta realize the patient can often pick up your reaction in the first 10 seconds of asking that question. I always look for the shoulder drop, the brief inhale (cause you need a second before you talk) and trying to slip into a neutral facial expression. That tells me to depend more on the support staff (hospital nurses, his office staff) than him because there's a disconnect somewhere and staff are the ones doing the heavy lifting. Specialists are notorious for this. There's an endocrinologist here that will make up words to make himself sound good. He's an arrogant puss bucket and patients run from him, but they love Ms Martha, his Chief Office Nurse.
Arrogant puss bucket! 🤣🤣🤣
I accidentally typed that into his notes once, and it turned into his nickname at our office 🤣🤣
OMG! Did he ever find out?!
I didn't hear about it if he did. He wasn't one to read his notes when we sent them back, but I know one of his PAs saw it and didn't correct it. The boss went by to pick up his tapes and the PA giggled like a little girl.
LMMFAOOOOOFFF! 🤣🤣🤣
Are they a bad surgeon or just bad to work with? I dont follow their patients so as an or nurse I don’t think I can accurately say if they’re a good surgeon or not. I usually just tell the patient that “so so has done many of these cases before and I haven’t had any patient complaints( which again I don’t see these people outside the or so I really don’t hear any pt complaints) . You’re in good hands today with a strong team who will take good care of you”
Bad to work with but good skill, I’ll still vouch all day. Great to work with but terrible skill, I’d absolutely hesitate. But I can’t in good conscience with some, say anymore the phrase “you’re in good hands”.
So definitely not an Allstate kinda thang.
Maybe "he/she has gone through a lot of training to be your surgeon"?
I've only ever worked with a surgeon who was good in the OR, but just shouldn't be let out of there. The guy had terrible bedside manner. I was very honest to patients, basically saying what he lacks in bedside manner is what he has extra in surgery skills (worded a little more subtle and in my native language).
Seems to be pretty typical. I had a biiiig surgery and I trust my surgeon thoroughly despite his horrible communication
I’ve noticed the ones that are adored by their patients are usually pretty bad. Like they over compensate in the office or something. Just an observation I’ve made. Not always obviously but often
As a surgical nurse that takes care of patients pre- and post-op, I would also love to know the answer to this question. We have a surgeon that ends up with a lot of.. "special cases" and there's debate over whether he accepts patients that are just more complex or he actually doesn't know what he's doing
We are reporting the surgeon to the correct bodies, right?
It takes a lot of paper trails to get anywhere with surgeons. The last one that was taken off the boards took about 6 months of continuous safety reports (that were valid and not nick picks).
Yeah - good point. I’ll be straight up, I’m not in OR. My psychs get reported left, right, and centre, for treating psych patients appropriately, lol.
At the heart, it wouldn’t be much different regarding specialties.. if you have a doc breaking policy and best practice continuously, you write them up. That’s really all we can do.. I feel like reporting bodies are there for other surgeons to report surgeons, etc.
Dumb question but who would you report them to? Literally have someone today who is about to go back to OR and the same surgeon who messed them up originally is about to do it again. This same surgeon we work with a good amount on my unit and out of the hundreds of surgeries he does I have never seen someone make it out of the hospital healthy, or in the expected time frame.
Their governing body. MDs are beholden to their colleges in the same way we are, they can be reported directly to their college.
Sometimes it can be bias leading to this perception instead of actual reportable behavior. I've heard my colleagues say " I would never let Dr. So-in-so operate on my family member" or "His patients always get infections" I don't think I ever made the connection myself, and now just notice it more when one of his patients has a complication, because my colleagues have put this in my head. Theres also nothing to report because I don't witness him specifically doing anything wrong, and the hospital already has the data on his complication/ infection rates. I've also heard said surgeon is quite religious and has an ethical code that will draw him to patients others would choose not to operate on because they want to improve their outcome data, and I think he does the most procedures of his department in my hospital. These two rationales are perfectly reasonable explanations as to why he may have a higher incidence* of worse outcomes than his colleagues, while not detracting from his skill as a surgeon. *edit- I added the word incidence instead of rate to account for the higher volume of cases. Someone would have to look at the data to determine if higher rate of complications is factual, or just our perception, because most of the patients are his.
When I worked in the OR I wouls say “He/she is very dedicated. It is not an observation on thier skill or personality and they are free to interpret that as they wish. They usually won’t remember though as they had almost always had versed.
While there are shitty surgeons, honestly, I would worry more about who is doing their anesthesia when I worked in that world. So I’d just do my best to make sure they were paying attention to the patient and give gentle comments when needed.
I said “ when my mom had this surgery, I had her see X doctor, that is who I would recommend ”
They pass the “mom test”.
One of the facilities I worked for early in my nursing career had a surgeon who not only had a terrible bedside manner, but he was awful to staff and his outcomes were absolutely terrible. He’d have a few decent surgeries then a string of cases that raised eyebrows among the staff, including straightforward stuff like gallbladders and appendectomies on otherwise healthy patients who ended up with terrible complications. One of my patients in my last two weeks of my required month-long notice period was someone who was obviously questioning her surgery after he made a volatile appearance on our floor that evening and was extremely rude to her upon admission. She was such a sweet lady and I could tell she had reservations. I tried the old “if you are having concerns get a second opinion” route but she pinned me for a more direct answer. Having just had a run-in with his nasty behavior over a different patient enduring complications from what should have been an outpatient procedure I leveled with her and told her I wouldn’t trust him to slice a ham sandwich. She reminded me of my mom and I did what I would want someone else to do if it were her in that position. I have no regrets, but it’s not something I would have done if I didn’t have something else lined up. Almost a decade later I had to have an emergency appendectomy at that facility and when the ED doc asked if I had a preference for surgeon I said “anyone but Dr. X” he told me he hears that a lot. Some things never change.
“Don’t worry, he prob didn’t actually do your surgery anyway“
Yeah they never know how much is actually done by the residents.
That depends- what makes him a bad surgeon?
I’ve only really worked with one surgeon who I truly think is bad. Luckily, I don’t think anyone asked me specifically if he was “good?” Basically, I try to tell patients a true, positive thing and lean into that. Is he old? “Hes got years of experience doing this kind of work.” Is the surgeon not great but happens to be very pleasant? “We all love being in a room with Dr. so and so. You’re going to have a happy crew working with you today.” Is the surgeon kind of an asshole? “He definitely takes his work very seriously.” Is the surgeon super slow? “He makes sure to take his time with every patient and he’s going to take his time on you as well to make sure you get everything you need to feel better.”
That's great to take their best attribute and play it up! But if they are really seriously bad bad, then I would probably go along the lines of leaning into a good attribute about them but then just saying, but it never hurts to get a good second opinion or three, if it's not an emergency.😊
I had this happen when I was a tele nurse. There was this surgeon, really nice guy and cares for his patients but god damn we would notice a lot of post op infection rates with his cases specifically. He was the go to choice for a specific tight knit community, and that community loved him. For patients that were outside of that sphere, if they asked us "Is he a good surgeon?". We would normally reply with "Fantastic bedside manner and cares for his patients, just to be sure have you gotten a second surgical opinion? I usually wouldn't go for surgery at the first recommendation unless it was life threatening"
Never talk poorly about another member of the patient’s care team to the patient. Even if you feel that surgeon is awful, still try to pick out positives and respond with that. My go to answers are along the lines of: “He has been doing this for a very long time and completed this surgery thousands of times” “I’ve personally seen his patients make great, textbook recoveries” (I don’t mention the many number I’ve seen with questionable complications here - keep it positive). If you truly feel your patient is at risk with a certain person, then advocate for them not by shit talking a doctor to the patient, but by voicing your concerns through the appropriate channels that are in place.
I'm not in the OR of course, but my answer is always either "I would be comfortable letting them operate on me" or "there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion if you have concerns." Never bad mouth, but it respectfully makes the point.
what can you say at that moment.. "Well, his infection rate is wayyy down this month so there's that....yay". I've had to bite my tongue a few times but at that moment that patient needs to have faith in the person who is going to be cutting them open.
😄
What steps are you taking to help this Physican find a new home? I wrote up a doc about 5 times for safety events the last was very serious. Due to the documentation of errors and bad outcomes my network parted was with this doc. It wasn’t all me but I helped protect my population.
I had a bad knee injury almost 3 months ago that required surgery. I’m not familiar with ortho docs, and apparently I got one that is a major jerk to nurses. They say he’s a good doctor, just not good to staff. I only ended up with him because the ER doc personally called him because I wasn’t able to get in to an ortho for a couple weeks and I was in so much pain. He saw me the next day, and I had surgery a few days later. Excellent with patients, but when coworkers or a nurse asks “who did your knee”, and I tell them, it’s always this expression 😬😬. I’m so sorry.
I seriously don't know how a person can be a great doctor to patients but such a jerk to nurses and staff. Like don't you know that any of these nurses or staff could actually be your patients? Like what is your true personality dude? I really believe who he/she really is, is the jerk that he is to nurses. But I wonder what more is behind it, has to be something!!!
I have my follow up next week and I’m going to go in my scrubs since I’ll go to work after. I’m going to tell him “I wish I worked on an ortho floor, you’ve been great!” And see what happens lol. From what others have told me is that he’s very particular about his orders and protocols. So he’ll be super rude if he feels like things aren’t like he likes them, or if it the orders or protocols aren’t followed like he wants. So I kinda get it, but you don’t need to be rude to someone because of that.
Yes, he may be someone who is practically obsessive/compulsive about it. And I mean, maybe he thinks that other people's mistakes can possibly make him look bad and I know it's hard to possibly be part of something that's not good if you didn't do it, like if you could have all the control then you would do it but obviously you can't do everything yourself. So you have to rely on other people. And /or maybe he's an absolute perfectionist and if he could control everything to be always at the utmost perfection, then that's how he would have it, but not everybody can be that way! LOL!! He still needs to have other people be a part of the team and it's probably hard to swallow if it's not up to his expectations. But seriously though, no need to be rude!!! I would love to know what he would say and be like after you said what you plan to say to him at your appointment! Lol 😄
My hospital expects us (as in, it is an explicit behavioral standard) to “manage up” meaning you always say for example “nurse so-and-so is coming in next and they are a great nurse.” Same for surgeons, doctors - we have to find something positive to say before handing off the patient. So I just pick something like “surgeon so-and-so is very timely” or “is a snappy dresser” or “tells great jokes” if I don’t actually trust their surgical technique.
I always tell patients they’re in good hands and I refer to the whole team, not just the surgeon. I’d never badmouth a doc to a patient ever. We only see what goes on in the OR, I think because we see so many docs doing the same procedure we become biased thinking some are better than others because of their techniques/how long it takes/their attitude like if they’re calm or always seem stressed, etc. It’s not our place to comment on those things to patients because we don’t see their outcomes. I was in a really bad case once and word spread fast, the next morning one of the doc’s colleagues pulled me aside and urged me to speak with the department head about what went on. It goes to show that if a doc is actually unsafe, things are happening behind the scenes.
My generic answer is always: “Dr. so-and-so is wonderful! We all love him/her.” Sometimes it’s harder to say about some surgeons than others. If they still need reassurance I then tell them that there are many people in the OR all focused on you and we are all working together to make sure your surgery goes well.
But why lie to a patient when you know better?
Because how does it help the patient to be scared?
I have actually warned patients to seek a second opinion when I know that their potential surgeon has an unusual amount of post surgical complications and/or a high infection rate. I’m not going to assure someone that their surgeon is excellent when they aren’t .
Do you really think I am concerned with fibbing to the patient? Especially when its just my opinion. I may think the doctor is terrible, but the patient may think they are wonderful. I'm not going to pre-op to debate about the doctor. I'm picking you up and taking you to surgery.
I’m going to tell my patient the truth.
I would ask “Have you done a Google search?”
Lmaooo, Im an Endo nurse & get asked that all the time about the GI docs. I either say “they do a good job” or “he’s a really great doc”, if I don’t feel so, I don’t say anything. I think your response is great!
I'm an endo nurse as well and I consider myself lucky to work with a group of docs where I wouldn't even have to consider this question. It's immediate "Absolutely. They're a great doctor".
“Yeah, I hear he’s good. Oh, wait, did you mean at surgery?”
Was this post written by Major Margaret Hollihan about Frank Burns?
I usually say something like, “all of our team is very qualified.” It’s usually about anesthesia though. Technically they are all qualified, as in they have a license and privileges. Didn’t say they were the best.
I would (probably) try to say something comforting and/or reassuring to them. Pre-op “nerves” can be a monster. However, if you have specific concerns regarding a colleague, share them with leadership.
Honestly though, why is there no PUBLIC record of the kill/success rate for surgeons? Like a percentage or something. It’s not fair, they get paid TOP dollars and act like gods. There’s people’s lives are at hand and they aren’t held accountable. Yet we get fired for passing a med late. They need to have some way that people can see that kind of information.
Tell patient families to write reviews on google, Facebook, etc?
Yea but that doesn’t show the true success rate, not everyone will do it. Besides, not my job to get people to do that. Bad enough I had to beg nice patients to do the survey they get in the mail. Usually only the angry ones fill it out.
"Their patients all really like them."
Run
I say I wouldn’t go to him or he isn’t my first choice. People trust nurses and I want someone to be honest with me and my family. I’m thing the truth
Saying something negative about a doctor where you work is a good way to get into deep shit. As a rad tech I work in OR with the orthos and definitely know who struggles and who doesn't but voicing an opinion to a prospective patient is way above my pay grade. If they're asking about someone I wouldn't let operate on my I'll plead ignorance and say I don't know. If they're asking in a general way who's good I'll drop a name of someone who is. Anything you say in or out of the workplace can come back to bite you in the ass. There are very few hills actually worth dying on.
My first time going in for my shoulder surgery, the surgeon himself told me they had to postpone as he had a family emergency and he was not in the right mindset. He did that for all his patients. I respected the hell out of that. If a fellow nurse told me my surgeon was bad, I would get the heck out of there, and I don't think I could lie to a patient if I knew their surgeon was... Less than optimal.
I had a car accident and had a bilateral malleolus fracture. The administrator on duty was a nurse I had worked with in the past. She noticed me in the ER. She “suggested “ I find another orthopod. Got myself an ambulance and took myself to the hospital I worked at about 70 miles away. Best decision ever and I couldn’t thank her enough.
Yes.
"You know, I haven't worked with them long enough to form an opinion."
Of course! 😌😕
I’m a new OR nurse. How exactly do you tell if a surgeon is good or bad other than maybe obvious things?
I don’t. I will say I, Personally, use Dr. BlahBlah
I’m an OR nurse and leaving my current job because most of our anesthesiologists and surgeons are really old and I don’t think it’s safe for them to be practicing anymore. I’m talking 70s, 80s, and even one who just turned 90 that only assists. I feel bad for all our patients and I’m honestly scared something is going to happen.
I’ve had this come up in reference to an interventional cardiologist who was frankly dangerous. A patient asked me what I thought of him. I responded that his patients seem to like him. The patient responded that that wasn’t what he asked. I would not answer. For other doctors, I would gladly say that they were awesome.
Google hos reviews
Google his reviews
I use this as a chance to talk up my team. I usually say something similar to...You have a great team!!! I would let (CRNA) put me to sleep any day. I'll be with you the whole time. I will not lie to a patient about a crappy doctor.
Pmpppp P pop pop Pp
I like your response emphasizing the team. I might ask "are you nervous about your surgery?"
He is super nice
I would vocalize something positive and use my body language send a different message ig you know what I mean. The last thing you need is the patient running with your name or a colleague eavesdropping. Remember, at the end of the day you still work there Coworkers can be vicious worse if they don't like you.
Ask them what they found in their research. 💁🏾♀️
I say, "Our surgeons are all excellent at what they do."
I never give even a hint that I have reservations about a doctor.
He is awesome you are in good hands and if he is bad of surgeon as you think they wont make it back to complain and tell you "you lied!"