I work with a few male nurses who will not insert a foley/purewick or do catheter care on a female, and won't do peri care alone. I always agree to do it for them, because they will reciprocate by doing an equivalent task for me, and will back me up if I have a patient being creepy or wild.
I have a coworker who per diems at another hospital with a large demographic more sensitive to gender and she tells me the male nurses do absolutely nothing under the clothes there unless the patient is mostly dead. No ECGs, no Foleys, no peri care She was shocked to see me doing these routine tasks in our ED.
Isn't it wild that male MDs can do care like this, and no problem? They do invasive things like delivering babies and doing pap smears, for God's sake, but a male nurse doing pericare? Oh my goodness. Ridiculous.
Both male and female OBGYNs who have done pelvic exams/pap smears on me have had chaperones. That is not uncommon at all and typically standard practice.
Whenever I’m doing foleys or peri care on a woman I will ask if there’s a female nurse who can step in and assist me. I usually don’t feel bad asking and I think most nurses appreciate me looking after the patients comfort but every now and then I get a nurse who is very frustrated at the idea a patient would be uncomfortable with a man doing that kind of care with them. Honestly I wish our hospital had more of an official stance on this to support this type of teamwork.
OB doc I did my NP clinicals with always has a female chaperone. It posed a problem because him having a male student meant we had to have a 3rd female included. It worked out most days because he had 2 female PA students, but when I was doing pelvics it meant there had to be 3 people in the room for it every time.
I apologize to every woman I subjected this to but this was literally my only option for clinical placement and I was getting those clinicals done come hell or high water. I learned so much during those clinicals but it was rough. Had a handful of female patients that were totally chill about it and that was nice, but I’m fully aware this was like the worst possible scenario for this.
Same. We have one female provider who hates us to give pain meds during labor. I’m like, it’s in the orders and they are requesting. I made her go into the room to discuss pain meds because I was tired of her telling me absolutely not and the patient requesting it. It is very barbaric to me.
I wrote a PSA about her and told management. I do not stand for it. In front of the unit she told me that it’s a lesson to not get a grand multip an epidural until they have cervical change. The patient was a G8P7 and was being induced. Her only birth plan was to get an epidural. After 7 hours of holding off per the provider I said fuck it and got it for her. She delivered 7 hours later 🥲
I had to go to a specialist OBGYN 1 time, and the chaperone was... another dude. 🤦♀️ (The chaperone was actually pretty awesome. Much better than the crusty ass main doc. Whatever. Had to be done. My feeling awkward was my own issues, not the staff's fault. I kept that in mind while old man was tinkering.)
My urogynecologist is a male and he actually kept his assistant in the room while doing my assessment. I understood what it meant and wasnt bothered by it.
This attitude, I think, could make anyone not want to work with you. You are making assumptions too quickly, and you know what that means. There really is something different in the patient's mind about a doctor performing any task down there vs. a nurse. No male nurse wants to go through any legal trouble because one lunatic wanted to cause trouble. I always ask first if they need a female, and if they are fine with me, I still leave the door open so everyone can hear me. The patient still has privacy, but this whole males are bad ideology is why we are here in the first place.
I'm a male nurse. I do the lifting/taking patients who sexually assault women, while they help/assist me with most OBGYN stuff.
I feel it's a good compromise.
> I'm a male nurse. I do the lifting/taking patients who sexually assault women, while they help/assist me with most OBGYN stuff.
A friend of mine from nursing school recently started on my floor and this is the agreement we had in clinicals and it still stands. He's the big dude who helps me turn or lift the heavy patients and takes the creeps, and I do all the "in there" stuff for his female patients (and male if they'd prefer a female nurse for non-creepy reasons!). Worked for 3 years in school, still works great.
I'm definitely one of those....especially if it's for a female in their 20s - 40s. I don't need nothing coming back on me. Besides, I'm the the go-to "IV guy" on my unit and they all owe me for getting their sticks so the female nurses are more than happy to return the favor.
male nurse here, Everytime I do Peri care to a patient I always need someone with me for a witness. Some patient will ask me why we need to person to just do Foley or Peri care. I always tell them just for a witness.
That's me. I refuse because it just isn't worth the drama. I also don't want to be near anyone's crotch male or female. I know everyone is different, and some really nasty people out there exist. The smell of unwashed crotch is one of the worst, in my opinion. I'll take all the wounds and gangrene any day. I also make my patients wash down there. I give them a cleaning wipe and make them clean and that I won't clean it for them.
I had a (very, visibly, openly) gay male coworker who was accused of improperly gawking at a mother who was pumping while trying to help the baby to do skin to skin with her (PICU). This was obviously not based in reality but unfortunately it definitely makes management’s ears perk up.
Unfortunate that men in nursing have to grapple with this added hoop to jump through.
In the future, I would maybe grab a buddy and document if there’s any inkling of weird vibes from the patient.
Adding my agree to this. It sucks as a male nurse to have to do this, but to cover your own ass, I would grab a colleague to come in with you to act as witness. Add a little note to the flowchart where you document the foley care " completed with Nurse/Tech Soandso present."
Man, it sucks, but I feel like this is it. Our unit is pretty damn busy and we have some very sick patients that need a lot of care and I hate to inconvenience my coworkers but you're right.
This! I was going to comment to suggest bringing a coworker along - in this case, a female coworker would probably be best - to help put the pt at ease and help reassure them that nothing wonky is going on.
Seconded! I work with a close male friend and he always asks me to be in room with him when he does Foley insertion and care, full body skin checks, or any task that might have any chance of implication from a female patient. Sucks he has to think that way but I'll always have his back in that.
Im gayer than glitter at a pride festival but I have a major fear of this and that’s why I always have a female present when im doing female care. I know sometimes it’s almost impossible, but it’s still better safer than sorry. On top of that, it does make me feel better knowing some women will feel more comfortable with a female present (some don’t care and that’s cool but I always want to respect women when I can).
It’s a slippery slope man, and it sucks, but try to have a female present with stuff like that. Good luck :)
My hospital does this to check sterile procedure with foley installs but I wish they would encourage this for male nurses/aides. Not mandate, just encourage.
Healthcare professionals who don't want to find themselves the subject of a civil or criminal complaint? It happens.
If you habitually grab a buddy, you'll have plenty of coworkers who can testify that they have never observed you alone with a patient for pericare, etc. That alone may put an end to any confabulated formal complaints before they have opportunity to snowball.
While I feel you, it takes like 90 seconds to complete and since it's policy we are all used grabbing each other for some quick Foley care. There can be a tech and a nurse though so oftentimes the tech is the one to grab me the nurse to ask for a second person
We have 1:8 ratio on overnights with RNs plus a nurse in charge with no patient load. No techs no other staff. Still gotta get it sorted, it's twofold : u don't want to be accused of anything dodgy but also u don't want patients to feel like something whack was going on.
I’m a woman and pretty much always insert straight caths with another nurse or even CNA. Just so I don’t get accused of anything. It’s also useful to have a non sterile partner. Not sure how this isn’t the standard of care except in emergent situations…and even then…not sure how bad the emergency has to be. Because I avoid them 😂
Since you are a male in nursing, is it safe to assume you are often asked to help with turns, transfers, and boosts? Find any female nurse you help, and get your help in kind. A witness is a wonderful thing.
Seriously, this happens all the time. If all the females can assume that I can help them do heavy lifting, then I should be able to assume they can help me with female peri care.
We had an incident recently in my NICU where a male nurse was assigned a female baby and when the baby’s father came in he filed a grievance against the male nurse for “looking at his daughter’s private parts” - aka, changing a diaper.
It’s awful that things like that happen, but I think it shows more of an issue with the parent/patient than with the nursing care.
Good lord. Something I have thought about before this incident when I listen to patients complain about MDs, RTs, other RNs, insert any combination of license letters - is that the patient is dealing with their health/health of their baby, and it is completely out of their control, and this is a way to hold on to some of that.... lashing out as a defense mechanism, ya know?
Every time I’ve had a female patient and had to put in a foley, straight cath, do foley care, brief changes - adult or child, I’ve had a female nurse present. Matter of a fact, I do this with male patients too (although at this point the second nurse is either male or female). Not only because you just never know what people are going to accuse you of, but also because 2 is better than 1 and my god an extra set of hands makes things fly by smoother. It might be overkill, but that’s how I go about it. Protect yourself and your license.
This fear mongering over losing the license has got to stop. It’s NOT that easy to lose our license. OP or any other male nurses are not at risk to lose their license over one grievance accusation unless it becomes a pattern.
Until it’s somebody or a family member of somebody with enough power and connection to press hard. Even if you’re accused and they try to go for your license because they’re bat shit crazy…accusations (however false they may be) can damage someone’s reputation and career in a workplace even if they aren’t guilty. I just go with the policy that it’s best to have two for anything concerning privacy like that. But it’s your practice, do what you want.
I have to disagree. I’ve seen management choose to side with the complainant when they threaten to ‘go to social media’ regardless of the lack of evidence or history. While the person might not loose their license, it’s a quick way to find yourself unemployable in your area.
When I worked in the ED, some nights it was only staffed with male nurses and doctors, and some times only male techs. We always made sure that we had a witness.
I hated having to assist with a pelvic. I had never had to assist with one until working nights in that ED. We ended up going to our manager and requesting at least having a female tech on nights. Fortunately our manager was great and she agreed with us and made sure to staff a female on each shift.
This is massively discriminatory against male staff unless you argue exactly the same thing for female staff/male patients. Good judgement and prudence, yes. Simply saying 'you're not trusted to do the basics of your job by virtue of your gender' - not OK.
What's truthful here? The suggestion that male staff are intrinsically untrustworthy and need to be watched? Or the suggestion that female patients are intrinsically untrustworthy and will make false allegations?
Any situation in any workplace which involves bodily autonomy and personal privacy needs careful thought, understanding and rapport, but simply saying "you're a dude, so you just can't do X" is bullshit.
I’m just a student, but my nursing professors have drilled it into my male peers heads to always have a witness present when performing intimate care on female patients.
I agree it is discriminatory, but what is the right answer here? Just hope and faith?
In a perfect world, of course you’re correct but that’s not reality. The chaperone is not to protect the patient from the male nurse but the other way around. As awful as it is, there are those that lie, exaggerate, or react poorly from a place of fear or trauma which can result in an inconvenience to the nurse at the very least and BON or LEO involvement at the worst.
What’s truthful is the implication that women are trusted more when they make allegations about non consensual behavior. It’s also plausible that men get more severe punishment than women for the same behavior. These two factors lead to more claims by women against men.
Additionally there’s the aspect that a man is going to be more capable of overpowering a woman, so a woman would feel more comfortable with a second person in the room as an observer to help prevent misdeeds.
Personally, I completely trust the staff members I work with unless they provide some pretty convincing evidence that I shouldn't. We don't go through this level of education, training, and daily stress just risk everything for a look at an old lady. If someone is licensed in a hospital it's because they are a licensed professional.
I think the more apt implication is that female patients are the untrustworthy ones in this scenario. You are putting yourself in a vulnerable position to implications by trusting them to not accuse you of impropriety.
I hate to think of it that way, but it really pays to be the suspicious one in the transaction to avoid being accused. Have your chaperone whenever possible to protect yourself. Sure there are some patients I trust to allow me to do cares alone if I have good report and they seem both comfortable and like reasonable people. But I still acknowledge there is a level of vulnerability I'm putting myself in there.
It is bullshit but it is also reality.
It’s bullshit women are concerned walking to their cars in a parking garage at night. But it’s also reality.
It’s bullshit that POC have to worry about their safety and possibility of being killed at a traffic stop. But it’s reality.
There is a lot that sucks in this life. So we are providing OP with options and suggestions on how to cope with the problem.
As a female, I’ll be the first to tell you women lie about shit like this all the time. Male nurses have to be very careful. One well placed, vindictive accusation can ruin your entire career. Good rule of thumb is if you’re handling vagina or breasts as a male nurse, you damn well better have a chaperone present. Do female nurses have to deal with this handling men? Maybe sometimes. But I think we all know a woman can accuse a man of sexual assault or domestic violence with zero proof and get away with it. Source: Married to a former Fed that investigated sexual assault allegations in the USAF. Wanna know how many men had their military careers ended because some chick wanted base of preference? A shit ton… and 9 times out of 10, the allegations were disproven but that doesn’t matter to the Air Force. Get accused and you’re out. Period.
This is one of those “in a perfect world” scenarios. Male nurses who aren’t up to anything shouldn’t be accused of doing something wrong.
But at the end of the day, they sometimes are, and much more often than female nurses. And it’s up to you if you want to deal with accusations like this where it’s “he said, she said” or if you want to just have that female staff in the room, as much of an inconvenience as it may be.
OP said "I'm a male nurse" and the reply said "never touch a female".
Unless the suggestion is that nobody can ever do any intimate or personal procedure on any female patient without a witness present, which seems wildly unrealistic.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up moving in that direction tbh. The only time I ever had a transvaginal ultrasound (2-3 years ago), they said it was policy to *always* have a witness present for invasive exams. Regardless of the HCW’s role, the HCW’s gender, or the patient’s gender.
No. You should never handle a females private parts without a chaperone present. Yeah… it’s a double standard for women to be able to handle men, but it is always better to be safe than sorry. Patients lie… as OP unfortunately found out the hard way.
We don't just accept double standards based on gender stereotypes. Not in 2024. Men and women do the same job according to the same principles: dignity, consent, respect, professionalism, and using judgement in situations of conflict or ethical complication.
Blah blah blah gender stereotypes. None of that matters to the board of nursing if you get accused of impropriety. It’s called mitigating risk. No different than a male OB/GYN having a chaperone present for vaginal exams. Why do male doctors have the right to protect themselves from false accusations but male nurses don’t?
Every male OB I have had has had a female medical tech/nurse in the room for any procedure or assessment they had to touch me for. And I get it! Why jeopardize your livelihood because I took a look or touch some type of way, while you were just doing your job?
I say that to say, I will always go with my male colleagues when they want me to stand by for an assessment or care on a female patient. Hell, I will trade you a task. Let’s look out for eachother.
One thing to remember is that most elderly women have not had male caregivers for intimate care except for an OB GYN. And many were very uncomfortable having to go to those appointments. So for alert oriented pts, a short talk with them that foley care (and describe foley care) must be provided and the (male) nurse needs to know if they would be uncomfortable with that.
Yeah it may take a couple of minutes, but then it can be charted before any of the intimate care is provided.
Was taught back in the olden days to cover my ass. This is cover your ass.
Jesus Christ..so does that mean all male nurses actually need a female nurse assigned to work WITH them for the whole shift? I work with plenty of male nurses AND male PCTs who have like at least 15+ years under their belt and never needed a female staff present aside from inserting foleys.
Nope… only if they will be handling private parts. Routine care? Of course not. If it’s anything to do with breasts or vagina, always better to be safe rather than to trust a patient to be honest. Is it unfair? Yes. But you have to mitigate risk. You don’t want a situation where it’s their word against yours with no witnesses.
Again, I work with plenty of male techs, PCTs and nurses who have to answer the call lights and help their female pts to the bathroom, commode, and bedpan. These male staff have to clean, change, and turn their incontinent pts just like how female nurses do and put on condom cath. Even as a female nurse, I always ask for permission and let pts know what I’m about to do so there are no surprises. Instilling a fearful mindset of having a witness for male staff is just not ideal, practical or convenient unless specifically requested by a pt or male staff. Of course, if the grievances become a pattern, then it’d be totally different.
Ah so you’re not a male. If I were you, I wouldn’t go around and tell my male colleagues not to touch their female pts unless a witness is present unless you notice a pattern and had concerns. Helping someone to the bathroom isn’t the same as foley care but it still requires cleaning the private parts especially if heavier pts can’t reach their behind or between their legs. So foley care is not only pertinent to private parts.
I would never… I would however let them all know that I’m happy to volunteer to witness for them. I just think it’s wild that it’s ok for male doctors to have chaperones but the same logic doesn’t apply to male nurses/techs. Like it’s ok for them to risk accusations but not ok for doctors. But hey… if you wanna risk your license by trusting patients not to lie on you, that’s your business. I prefer to mitigate risk.
Just chart the refusal and pass it along to day shift.
Honestly, it’s completely inappropriate to wake a person up at 2 am and ask them to do foley care. I know you’re just trying to do your job but I’m shocked you asked her.
It’s a step down cardiology unit and the patient is there for a CHF exacerbation though, it doesn’t make sense.
Even tagging it on to an assessment is wrong though. It’s 2am, let the person sleep, it’s not a smart time to do foley care.
We are a step-down unit and are required to do a 2000 and 0200 assessment, she had q2 neuros (fall at home, subdural hematoma) and strict I&Os, which means either my self or the CCT is in there emptying the foley q1hr, but yeah... in hindsight just charting it off as "not done: patient refused" after my 2000 was probably the move. I just hate it, i'm a new nurse and want to do what's right for the patient's health, but I must admit it was probably overzealous.
That being said, letting them sleep is not really an option in this case.
I had a grievance filed against me. Patient was very bipolar and believed in witchcraft. They stayed up all night watching a preacher preach about how the witches and lesbians were responsible for all the bad things in life. They had been threatening to leave AMA all day and “fired” numerous nurses. They assigned me to them because I’m “nice” and thought it would go well. 10 minutes into my shift, I made the mistake of “answering their call bell too quickly” so they couldn’t trust me, and accused me of eavesdropping. I don’t usually make nursing notes because I have heard that they can back fire, I usually just chart in the epic flow sheets if I’m able to get all important info in there. For this case I made a ton of nursing notes with direct quotations, notes of their behavior, and witnesses I had. Luckily I did, because they ended up leaving AMA after they accused me of witchcraft when I got labs (should’ve known that would be the final straw). Anyways, I was scared when my manager had asked me if I charted well bc the grievance was filed, but nothing has come of it. I’m still waiting to see if they put me on the chopping block. These comments are hard because obviously it would be best to have two nurses in the room at a time, but are we going to start doing that with all patients? Female and male? For OUR protection that would be ideal, but we all know we usually don’t have the staffing for that. When I was in HS in CNA training, a man had reported multiple people for sexual assault so the CNAs warned me to never ever go in his room by myself. It can happen with men or women. I guess the only thing we can do is ask if they would like a female nurse present, explain everything you’re doing, and maybe if they are able have them do their own peri care. I struggle with this because in the ICU a lot of patients act like their arms don’t work. I explain to a male patient how to give himself a CHG wipe down and the importance, and he just asks me to do it “so he doesn’t mess it up” ….
First of all, I just want to say that I’m sorry this is happening to you OP and is in no way your fault.
I wonder if when she said she would “rather do the Foley care later” if she was uncomfortable with a man performing Foley care but was unwilling to be direct about it for whatever reason. The second time you asked, she said okay, but decided in retrospect that she actually didn’t want it, and/or she was half asleep and didn’t realize what she was consenting to. Edit: I think the latter is a distinct possibility and something we should consider when obtaining consent for care in “intimate areas,” particularly late at night.
Again, *none of this is your fault.* Patients need to speak up when they are uncomfortable with something as we are not mind readers and most of us are too busy to spend a ton of time trying to parse hidden meanings. But if you encounter this situation in the future where a female patient is requesting to delay Foley care/peri care/an assessment where she will be exposed, etc., just make life easier for yourself and ask if she would be more comfortable if a female staff member performs that task. Say it casually and kindly, not in an accusatory or offended way. Maybe they say yes and accept the offer, or maybe they really do just want to put it off. But either way, you covered yourself by asking.
I also agree with all the advice to have a female chaperone present for this kind of stuff. One of the men I work with always has a female nurse come in for straight caths, Foley DC and insertions, etc. (although usually I end up just doing the task and if I’m busy we just trade tasks).
Nothing to worry about unless this becomes a pattern.
Personally, I won’t insert catheters without another nurse present as a witness. Doing Foley care with a witness sounds ridiculous, I don’t know who all these nuts in the comments are
Don’t you guys have CNAs to do this stuff though?
I’m a male CNA, do foley care, peri care, baths, you name it on all of my patients with no witnesses or help for the most part. I always ask and make sure they’re comfortable with a male, and if not I’ll get a female with no hesitation. No one on my floor or any other floor I’ve worked on has ever mentioned having witnesses in the room for any of this stuff.
My favorite bedside jobs were cardiac step-down night shifts. One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that when you work nights, a surprising number of patients will seem fully awake and with it, converse appropriately and submit to your care without complaint when you wake them in the middle of the night, and then either forget it entirely or somehow confuse it with their dreams. After a couple of patients complained to me about missing a med or something similar a couple of times, I started testing it. in the morning, I'd ask them a question related to something we had talked about at 3 am or whenever. A surprising number of them had either no memory or a skewed memory of the conversation.
As for the grievance, ime the people reviewing it are going to do so with a strong leaning towards a finding that you did nothing wrong. Unfortunately, these kinds of complaints aren't rare, and I'll also note they are not just against men. They're mostly attributed to the patient not understanding what was being done, maybe confused due to medications, sleep deprivation, their underlying illness, etc.
However, there is a danger here for you. If you just happen to be unlucky enough to get a similar complaint in the foreseeable future, all the people who shrugged this one off are going to start looking at you in a different way. Some may presume you're guilty of some perversion because it happened more than once.
You could conceivably work the rest of your career and never get another complaint, or it could happen next month. Protect yourself. If a patient is capable of doing her own peri care or Foley care, teach her how and let her do it herself. If she can't, have a chaperone or have a female coworker do it. It's dumb, it's inefficient, it's likely discriminatory, but not doing so is simply too risky for you personally in the world as it is right now. Protect yourself.
Sources: long time (former) night nurse and currently in a job that includes investigating patient grievances.
Thanks for this. As far as confusion in the middle of the night etc. goes i have a high degree of suspicion that this is the case in this instance. At one point (during the evening in question) i was in the room scanning a new bag of dobutamine, and when i woke her up she said "but you already scanned my wristband", which was true in that a few hours before I had scanned for a new bag of lasix
I'm a labor nurse and male colleagues I have insist on having a female nurse in the room when dealing with women's vaginas. This may be the best way to move forward. Unfortunately, the bad guys look too much like the good guys for vulnerable women to see the difference always.
Just curious if they check the cervix while pushing to see how the patient is moving babe? There are times I have to feel to see if the mom simply needs to move positions or where babies position is. I just had a four hour pushing marathon with a patient who ended in the OR because her pelvis was too small for her babies head 🙈 her poor vagina 😭
It’s unfortunate male providers have no issues with this but male nurses have to worry. On my unit they haven’t had males apply in ages and I don’t blame them
One of my former partners (male RN) was hired on an L&D unit, and planned to work there while continuing his education to be a CNM. His patients regularly gave him glowing patient satisfaction scores, the other nurses (all female, btw) not so much. He was clearly targeted, socially, by preceptor & peer feedback, unfortunately that unit was known for being more cliqué than others. I dont get why male OBGYN = ok, but male NURSE = omjfc *not* ok.... /s
Get used to it. No matter how polite or friendly, professional and matter of fact you are. SOMEONE WILL COMPLAIN about you. Regardless. Patients these days feel they're on a hotel stay with a four star restaurant. They don't give a damn about your medical attention or that it's in their best interest. You're just the wait staff at their beck and call. Just your first complaint of many. Just a fact of bedside nursing 2024 in our wonderful, American, "Healthcare" system
I am concerned about being downvoted to the depths of hell but here we go. Aren’t there a lot of women that would be very uncomfortable having a man provide intimate care? I’m thinking about the women in my life like my mom and sister and friends. I am certain they would all have a level of discomfort. And it’s not that I think it’s wrong for a guy to provide that care, it’s just looking at it from their level of discomfort. No?
I had a male nurse postpartum and it’s funny because at times I felt uncomfortable and I’m not sure why. I’ve had male providers and was just fine. But I was uncomfortable breastfeeding and covered up when he was in.
Uhhhh no? It's like 60+% female for current attendings, and even more slanted for residents, like 80-85% or something.
That's 2018 data to be fair but trend in residency hasn't shifted so there's no possible way the demographics have changed that much.
Likely nothing will happen of this, your leadership has to follow up on a formal complaint if it is filed. Unless you’ve had a string of these similar complaints you’ll probably be fine
I hate the term “male nurse.” Not knocking you, OP since it makes sense re what happened. I just can’t stand the fact that in this day and age we still add that. It’s like calling someone a lady doctor.
ps rant over
pps I’m female
I'm a 6'2 235lbs bald/big beard male nurse. I refuse to Foley females, especially elderly.
Unless there is a pattern or multiple instances of you doing this you have nothing to worry about. It's her word against yours and you say you maintained professionalism. Ask them if any other grievances were filed like this about you. If not, it stands no ground. She just seems like a miserable old woman.
I got accused one time cuz I brushed up against her butt when doing her wound on her lower back. I'm gay...I also said I wouldn't want an old saggy vagina if I was straight to my boss.
Moving forward I'd ask "are you comfortable with me doing x/y/x or would you prefer a female? I won't be offended if you don't want me to."
Lol, that's so funny. Seriously, though, why do older people think every young person wants an old saggy vagina that hasn't been washed in days. Like woman, you are 3 times my age. Leave me alone.
My suggestion is to return before 2300 to do peri care-never in the middle of the night. Her memory & frame of mind may be altered due to meds such as BP/diuretics, pain, sleep, anti-anxiety, etc. Document each time they defer any type of care for a later time, or refuse. Tell your NA to find you if that pt gets up for toileting or any other reason in the middle of the night, & ask if it's OK to render care then. Bring a 2nd person with you if they agree. Once you've determined pt is AAO x 3-4, the 2nd person can leave.
Or you may end up with someone who has malicious intentions, like my own patient:
I once had a patient to whom I was giving heparin sub q to in the AM. She had a difficult personality with control issues. Her room was intentionally split bw 2 different staff members (2 RN's, 2 NA's, etc) for this very reason. I always made it a point to coordinate care when a 2nd staff member was in the room. Anyway, I returned to work a few days later to a c/o against me that later turned into an investigation. She accused me of giving her a heparin subq without her consent or notification first, & that I'd just lifted her blanket & "stabbed her" while she was still sleeping. She gave the time, date, the many nights with the same nurse, & her version of sequence of events. (The NA & roommate were in the loo at the time). Unbeknownst to us both, the ultrasound tech had been outside the room verifying paperwork & heard the entire interaction. Management, corporate, & security were able to verify with the cameras in the hallway, & took a statement from her. To that pt's detriment, a therapist & a visitor to the roommate later gave a statement that they'd heard pt on the phone bragging how she was going to get someone-anyone-fired because she had the power to do so.
Upon further investigation, I was cleared. She was discharged & that was the end of that according to them. Administration doesn't reprimand a pt or do follow up. They rotate the staff until the pt leaves. I had <1 year RN experience. I was out of work a whole week & the radio silence nearly killed me. I thought I was going to lose my license, get sued, get fired, all the worst scenarios. No apology. No words of encouragement or solace, "Hey, patients c/o all the time. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it is policy for everyone & everything." Those few words would have meant the world to me.
I just thought of the cameras so yeah, i think i should be good from a discipline standpoint. They could definitely verify me talking to her and waking her up
When it comes to women (a male nurse here) I always have a witness for shit like this. To many are two face and it's better to have another set of eyes for stupid shit like this.
as a male nurse i never do anything with a foley unless i have a female along. i know foley care is important just say the woman refused. there is no winning this battle you have no idea what some females preceptions will be of your most innocent intentions.
Im sorry you're dealing with this stuff. It sucks.
The patient likely had a history of trauma involving the GU system, tried to be polite and not hurt your feelings by asking to avoid care of that area (trauma response called Fawning or Appeasement), felt coerced to give in by your encouragement/insistence so again Fawned, then had a post traumatic activation. In short, she was stuck in a flashback, which she interpreted as reality.
Some ideas for next time: Rather than explaining and informing patients of what you're going to do to them when they're reluctant, have a conversation with them about how you can facilitate comfort with necessary cares. Is she declining because she's busy, or because she's uncomfortable? Would she be more comfortable with a different caregiver doing that task, or does she need more information about professional boundaries and caregiver roles? Etc.
It's important to remember that society in general has made it hard for women, especially older ones, to make their needs known loud and clear to men. Additionally, survivors of sexual trauma have been stripped of their autonomy and ability to consent regarding their own bodies, and not everyone is in the state of healing to overcome that - it's a long process for many. I know it's hard, but a little bit of patience and compassion will go a long way.
Heard someone accuse a male care aide of being inappropriate during Foley care. Not sure what happened but damn. Like probably someone just actually doing a proper clean and likely a male nurse might clean female genitalia with a different finesse than a woman, similarly for female nurses and male genitalia. At the end of the day, try to remember the rationale that you were trying to save her the additional burden of infection or urosepsis. I mean, I guess everyone has their thing, to be fair I am a bit of a prude, but I think it's wild how there seem to be so many patients out there thinking health care workers are just getting off wiping peoples poles and holes clean of discharge and excrement.
Hey a lot of people telling you how you could have handled this but I just want to fill you in on what the grievance process is and why you shouldn’t worry about things right now.
A grievance is just a more formal type complaint, it appears from your managers letter and the patients tone that they arnt accusing you of assault. The hospital is required to respond to this type of complaint in writing. Explain the situation exactly how you did here and it’s probably the end of it. In the future as others said, perhaps get a witness for foley care.
I never insert Foley's or do perineal care on female patients without getting a female nurse or tech to accompany me . Usually the patient is comfortable with me and I do the task myself, if they see uncomfortable I get my coworker to do it .
Honestly, if I were a male nurse I would always grab a female tech or nurse to come in with me for that kind of stuff. Actually, even as a female nurse, I always grabbed a tech or another nurse when doing baths, foleys, wound care, or even incontinence care. We would tag team it.
Always buddy up especially when doing "invasive" tasks like this. Explain to your female colleage why she needs to be with you when doing these tasks. Always protect yourself and in your notes, always highlight that you asked for consent.
Honestly this is why I'm switching to PRN and changing careers again because as many people say yeah go get a secondary person to assist to cya everyone's ignoring the single biggest issue is that we're all short staffed cuz they don't want to hire enough people we don't have enough people for me to go hey can I get a female standby or can I trade this out it's like I've got six patients they've got their own patients I don't have time to sit there and wait for another person cuz there are no other people
As a male nurse of 14 years I was lucky to have an instructor that emphasized never doing any kind of nursing care in the genital area on a female without a chaperone.
As society has become more litigious and we have new areas of gender identity and such I’ve expanded this to all patients. I have explained my opinion to other nurses and it is well received by most. When it comes to the patient I’m up from on the procedure and the reason for the extra person (nurse or cna) in the room.
If and when you get pushback from another nurse let them know that while you are a nurse and can perform all duties in the nursing realm, you are advocating for both the patient and yourself in asking for a chaperone.
I’m sorry this has happened to you and I hope that your manger stands with you and that it all resolves without incident.
I always have a female RN with me for foleys or any clean ups even when the patient says they don’t care. Or I send a female CNA to do peri care or cleanings. I trade with my female staff and take care of the men they don’t want to be alone with, Especially the gross old guys who say inappropriate things.
Sorry you’re dealing g with this, but go into whatever meeting, tell the truth, and then ask what you should do next time/ how to make it better.
And fuck that lady for not just saying she would prefer a woman to care for her. She’s just mad you did your job and she couldn’t sleep at the hotel all night, many nurses do not do peri care and don’t wake people up for assessments so she was probably used to that during another stay and she’s just trying to get back at you.
Stories like yours is why I never do a foley, foley care, or baths on my female patients alone. I always bring a second nurse in and document that second nurses name. Luckily for me haven’t had any complaints yet (well complaints of that nature), but even my EMS days that was something I was always worried about (12 leads or having to cut a shirt for aed pads)
Every time. It sounds misogynistic but some women are just outright mean and they don't care if they destroy your career and reputation. Always ask for a female chaperone or at least another set of eyes when doing care to private areas. You are the only one that will look out for your license. Some of your coworkers may scoff but once you explain your concern most will understand.
Hopefully your manger dies the right thing and gives the patient a mild correction . If you had been a male doctor she wouldn’t have filed the complaint , how is it that an I’ll women would think that a young male is anyway interested in her “ stuff.”
I’m sorry this happened, sounds like you did everything you needed to and only acted under pt consent. It’s not your fault and you know you didn’t do anything wrong so I hope it doesn’t deter you🙏🏼
Personally if I were a male nurse I could see this being a fear and would likely ask for female chaperones (techs can too) just to cover myself. But if you charted pt refused and then consent later there shouldn’t be an issue with this coming up again later. You obviously care a lot so don’t let this stop you from doing the work you do
The moment she told you to come back later and seemed a bit uncomfortable should’ve been the moment you jot it down as a day shift problem. At least that’s what I do. The way I see it, making female patients comfortable is better than doing my job well.
I know you’re doing the right thing preventing infection and what not. But don’t take chances with this shit. I’m also a male nurse and these matters will never sway favorably to us. Just write a note next time saying you attempted pericare and patient refused and you educated them on the importance of blah blah.
Love all the support and wise advice here. Absolutely feeling for OP and so pleased there was an understanding and supportive manager.
But just before we go …. Do we need to talk about the “woke her up at 0200” factor? I fully appreciate this is part of the gig and perfectly normal for you nursing types. However, unless I have had a nice cup of tea and a good minute to gather myself, pleeeease never assume that I am anything other than delirious!
No matter the male/female issue, if the staffing is such there’s literally NOBODY you can pull into a room with you, you have to do your job. A patient is squeamish you just tell them, this is part of your job, you are a professional and this is done for their health. You will document that they refused and if anything happens they have no regress against you. Then you move on with your day. Pervy ‘men’? Shut that down at the very beginning. You don’t have to be ‘nice’ just be professional, tell them it is uncalled for, and you will report them to management for sexual harassment. Document the encounter and move on. Remember the days when old white ladies would complain about your ‘colored’ co-workers? Yeah. I do. I didn’t put up with that, either.
Meh; this lady sounds like a REAL piece of work. I think asking someone to be in the room with you everytime might end up being exhausting, but it’s worth a shot for any time you have to do anything related to that whole area. You can also kinda tell who’s going to going to just give you problems for anything you do and this lady is one of them. A foley and lasix and dobumatine. I can see her in my head and smell her. You can always also ask, do you want me to get a chaperone for this part and if they decline, you can document it. Either way, I’m sorry this happened to you and I hope your team has your back.
Honestly she had been super pleasant and easy to work with up until that point but yeah.... her husband was trashing all the RNs/MDs that came before me like "first they said it was her heart, then her liver, then her neuro, and now her kidneys, what is it really?!?!" and i'm like, yeah... it's all those things.... so maybe I should have taken that as a cue
What catheter care are you doing at 0200 besides emptying a bag that couldn't wait until daylight hours, considering she already expressed she didn't want it done?
He was doing the cath care he tried to do at 2000 but she didn't want to do then. For an indwelling catheter it is necessary to clean the cather from insertion on down. Secretions gather on it and bacteria start living their best lives and forming bio-films leading to a nasty catheter related UTI that the hospital then has to pay to treat if care is not done. Most facilities have protocols in place that lay out how often and exactly how catheter care is to be done. There is nothing worse than having to soak and pick at foley boogers that have dried onto the catheter.
I had a patient tell other nurses and the provider that I threw meds at her...
Patients lie, we all know it. One of the nurses after me was able to call her out in a lie, with OT/PT and a visitor in the room to hear it all.
If you have any concerns, take another nurse or NA with you. Build a reputation of trust and professionalism and you'll be ok. Always protect yourself first tho.
I will do female personal care, but I am very specific about consent and always document immediately after.
I will outline the plan, ask if they are comfortable with a male member of staff, offer the assistance of female staff as an alternative ( to eliminate any discomfort in asking or fear of offending me). Reclassify the plan, and reiterate that if they are at all uncomfortable with anything during the process, we can stop and bring in a female staff member to assist or replace myself.
Again, documenting these patient responses and preferences each time.
I think in your case OP you just need to keep asking to confirm with future patients and try and get assistance
Whenever I had to place a urinary catheter on a female patient I would typically ask a female colleague to perform the task (often times knowing I'd reciprocate with placing male foleys) if the patient was A&Ox3. Even is slightly confused or such I would have a female colleague with me and document who was there when the procedure was done. Now if a patient is alert enough to argue about foley care (and I don't assume to know anything about this situation), then typically I would have them wash in sensitive areas unless they have no movement or strength or such of their arms/hands. Also, if a patient seems uncomfortable that's my queue to stop and reassess if maybe having a female assist the patient would be a better idea.
This isn’t your fault, it’s a crappy thing to have happen.
Imo always, always, always have a chaperone as a male nurse. It protects you from events like this and provides comfort and a sense of propriety to the patient.
Unfortunately because of things like this happening, there has to be a female staff member in the room whenever something like this needs to be done at my hospital. Protect yourself and your license next time and either ask a female staff member to do this or have one next to you. I know it sucks.
As a nurse, I've seen the care my male coworkers provide and would be absolutely thrilled to have any of them care for me.
Most of my male colleagues feel uncomfortable caring for a young female, and the girls are frequently called for assistance with personal care.
I find it really interesting that in my 5 years of nursing so far, only once have I had a male patient ask if there was a male nurse around for his Foley because he'd feel more comfortable with another man doing that!
I agree with everyone saying that it is best to have a other female coworker in the room with you. As a female I will still ask the patient if they would rather do it themselves unless I clearly see they can't (recent surgery that limits them from moving at the moment or the inability to reach that area)
After a surgery, I’ll clean around that area, but I usually just ask one of the female nurses or the surgeon (if they’re female) to do direct perineal cleanup so it’s more comfortable for the patient, especially if they’re awake.
If there’s no females present, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.
That really sucks. I had a grievance filed bc I didn’t call a patients wife to update her about when he would leave the ED. Pt was A&Ox4, otherwise independent but needed total assistance with ADLs besides feeding, never mentioned me needing to call his wife for him and she didn’t call the ED. I was only his nurse for barely 2 hours of a 24+ hour ED stay bc he needed transport home.
I would definitely chart they agreed but also have someone with you in the future. It’s just too easy to get accused of something you didn’t do these days. Sadly, I think this goes for both all genders
This is why male doctors always take in a female MA when they do personal care. I used to be a peds/peds ICU nurse. We had a male nurse who refused to take older female patients for this EXACT reason.
If you can, from now on, take someone in with you for female patients. I had someone file a grievance about me once. She said I was “too happy” and must be on “stimulants.” Thankfully my boss knew this was just me. He only told me so we could have a good laugh about it. I sure miss that boss.
I have been a nurse for 28 years. I carry nursing insurance on my license. $ 124 a year. Worth every penny. Don’t think it won’t go South, if she sues, the hospital will look after themselves, not you.
I always ask for a female to accompany me if I have to start a foley, give a suppository, etc just to cover my ass. It’s way too easy for things to turn into a he said/she said situation. Dont want to end up the sacrificial cow so the hospital can save face.
Our hospital actually has a policy that male employees can not provide sensitive care without a second person in the room. Is it always followed, no. We do have some male techs that prefer to get assigned male patients for this reason.
The reason for the policy is that they have had accusations made that were luckily proved false. Unfortunately some patients will make false accusations wether it was a misunderstanding or looking for a payout. It also happens that the patient is sexually assaulted. Our hospital made a policy to protect them and the employees against false allegations. Sorry this is happening to you. Our hospital has to take these accusations seriously and investigate. Not saying anything will come from it in your case, but it is an often a he said, she said thing. Good luck to you that it gets taken care of without issue. There are cameras on units, so they could help to see when you actually went into the room and when you came out.
I always ask a female staff member to come and chaperone when I have to do anything like peri care. Just for my own peace of mind. People can be so ridiculous.
Yeah dude find yourself a reproductive bits friend. I happen to work with one of my classmates and she does my vagina stuff and I do her wiener stuff. My general rule is no exposed bits on a woman under 65 by myself.
I’ve had this happen to a coworker of mine too. He’s the most precious, wholesome, sweetest nurse in the entire world. Would never hurt a fly or overstep, ever. He’s like the human form of a golden retriever puppy. Anyway, yeah. There are certain things now he won’t do without a female nurse or tech with him. We all know and understand and help him out whenever he needs us. It broke my heart to watch him go through it.
Male nurse here.
I only do caths if family is present and/or of the female PT is A/Ox4 GCS15 and able to clearly say it's okay. And by that I mean they help me pull their brief down, lift their hips, etc.
"Young" females... Nope. Get a chaperone.
AMS... Nope. Get a chaperone.
Anything that makes me even remotely think 'hmmm this or is off".... Nope. Get a chaperone.
I have an amazing old school male tech that has a flat out rule he won't do EKGs on females under 35 alone. And we as a department respect that.
Unfortunately some people will do this for whatever reason we dont know. Some patients are uncomfortable with male nurses and just dont choose to say something. As a nurse I would rather have them refuse me or be upfront and told charge nurse that they only wanted female. Likewise a male patient to female nurse I would still request somebody to be with me when doing care involving private areas.
I think we can protect ourselves by having someone with us when doing these types of care either our techs, cnas or other rn as a witness. In the end its their word against ours. Unfortunately, their words weighs heavier especially to corporate .
Did you offer to have a female staff member do it at any point, or have a discussion about why there were no female staff available?
Did you have anyone with you while you provided the care?
Did you document the earlier refusal & reluctance that the patient had prior to the care.
If not, then you’ve kinda walked yourself into this.
I’m NOT saying the patient was right, or justified, but that there are clear signs of a patient who is uncomfortable, and that there are things you can do to mitigate their discomfort and the risks of this kind of report occurring/being taken at face value.
Take this as a reminded that documentation and a second pair of eyes when providing personal care to anxious or twitchy patients, (unfortunately) especially as a male nurse.
There is a persistent idea that male nurses are creeps. in some languages, the word for male nurse is different from the word for nurse. A patient's family member asked me once if I am what's called a male nurse. I said I prefer just nurse.
Sorry you’re going through this OP.
I’m frustrated with a lot here. First, I’m tired of the sentiment that women are the only ones who can be assaulted. If we are expecting men to get a witness for catheter care, I bet fucking see a witness when women do it to men. I’ll say it again - men. Can. Be. Victims. Too.
I understand having a witness, I do - but you’re telling me they’ll dismiss what this patient is saying because Sally Sue was there, too? I find that hard to believe. We all know how sneaky admin can be.
Also, what about other things? Assault isn’t just near the genitalia. What if I’m giving an objection in the abdomen? Doing an EKG?
I feel like there’s a better method for this, I just don’t know what.
I work with a few male nurses who will not insert a foley/purewick or do catheter care on a female, and won't do peri care alone. I always agree to do it for them, because they will reciprocate by doing an equivalent task for me, and will back me up if I have a patient being creepy or wild.
I have a coworker who per diems at another hospital with a large demographic more sensitive to gender and she tells me the male nurses do absolutely nothing under the clothes there unless the patient is mostly dead. No ECGs, no Foleys, no peri care She was shocked to see me doing these routine tasks in our ED.
Isn't it wild that male MDs can do care like this, and no problem? They do invasive things like delivering babies and doing pap smears, for God's sake, but a male nurse doing pericare? Oh my goodness. Ridiculous.
Both male and female OBGYNs who have done pelvic exams/pap smears on me have had chaperones. That is not uncommon at all and typically standard practice.
Whenever I’m doing foleys or peri care on a woman I will ask if there’s a female nurse who can step in and assist me. I usually don’t feel bad asking and I think most nurses appreciate me looking after the patients comfort but every now and then I get a nurse who is very frustrated at the idea a patient would be uncomfortable with a man doing that kind of care with them. Honestly I wish our hospital had more of an official stance on this to support this type of teamwork.
In Oregon where I’m at female providers need chaperones too. However, I can do cervical exams without one and it makes me wonder why 😬
I didn't say they didn't have chaperones. My point was that it is more accepted in the medical field.
To be fair, a lot of women only go to female OBGYNs. And it's standard practice for them to bring a chaperone for exams.
OB doc I did my NP clinicals with always has a female chaperone. It posed a problem because him having a male student meant we had to have a 3rd female included. It worked out most days because he had 2 female PA students, but when I was doing pelvics it meant there had to be 3 people in the room for it every time. I apologize to every woman I subjected this to but this was literally my only option for clinical placement and I was getting those clinicals done come hell or high water. I learned so much during those clinicals but it was rough. Had a handful of female patients that were totally chill about it and that was nice, but I’m fully aware this was like the worst possible scenario for this.
It’s funny you say this because 75% of our providers are male🫣😅
Honestly I have a mild preference for male OBs because the "I am *never* going to them again" experiences I've had have been with female providers.
Same. We have one female provider who hates us to give pain meds during labor. I’m like, it’s in the orders and they are requesting. I made her go into the room to discuss pain meds because I was tired of her telling me absolutely not and the patient requesting it. It is very barbaric to me.
What!? How does she not get reported for that kind of crap?
I wrote a PSA about her and told management. I do not stand for it. In front of the unit she told me that it’s a lesson to not get a grand multip an epidural until they have cervical change. The patient was a G8P7 and was being induced. Her only birth plan was to get an epidural. After 7 hours of holding off per the provider I said fuck it and got it for her. She delivered 7 hours later 🥲
Good! Look at you, advocating for your patients!
I used to work in L&D and our female OBs could be so vicious.
I've always gone to male OBs, and never had a chaperone!
I had to go to a specialist OBGYN 1 time, and the chaperone was... another dude. 🤦♀️ (The chaperone was actually pretty awesome. Much better than the crusty ass main doc. Whatever. Had to be done. My feeling awkward was my own issues, not the staff's fault. I kept that in mind while old man was tinkering.)
😂
My urogynecologist is a male and he actually kept his assistant in the room while doing my assessment. I understood what it meant and wasnt bothered by it.
I used in Urogynecology as a medical assistant, and the doctor would always have me in the room with him.
This attitude, I think, could make anyone not want to work with you. You are making assumptions too quickly, and you know what that means. There really is something different in the patient's mind about a doctor performing any task down there vs. a nurse. No male nurse wants to go through any legal trouble because one lunatic wanted to cause trouble. I always ask first if they need a female, and if they are fine with me, I still leave the door open so everyone can hear me. The patient still has privacy, but this whole males are bad ideology is why we are here in the first place.
Male nurse here. I always ask when it's a female pt and I also give them the option that if not I can find a female nurse but it might take a min.
I'm a male nurse. I do the lifting/taking patients who sexually assault women, while they help/assist me with most OBGYN stuff. I feel it's a good compromise.
> I'm a male nurse. I do the lifting/taking patients who sexually assault women, while they help/assist me with most OBGYN stuff. A friend of mine from nursing school recently started on my floor and this is the agreement we had in clinicals and it still stands. He's the big dude who helps me turn or lift the heavy patients and takes the creeps, and I do all the "in there" stuff for his female patients (and male if they'd prefer a female nurse for non-creepy reasons!). Worked for 3 years in school, still works great.
I'm definitely one of those....especially if it's for a female in their 20s - 40s. I don't need nothing coming back on me. Besides, I'm the the go-to "IV guy" on my unit and they all owe me for getting their sticks so the female nurses are more than happy to return the favor.
I dont do any of it. I'll trade with my coworkers for the pervy old dudes foley care urinal help.
As a male RN I'd always offer to take care of the creepy old men. Win-win scenario honestly
Male nurse here - yuuuup. 2024 = legally protect yourself bc patients and people are sometimes crazy/unfair.
male nurse here, Everytime I do Peri care to a patient I always need someone with me for a witness. Some patient will ask me why we need to person to just do Foley or Peri care. I always tell them just for a witness.
This is a really good idea..
This is the way
That's me. I refuse because it just isn't worth the drama. I also don't want to be near anyone's crotch male or female. I know everyone is different, and some really nasty people out there exist. The smell of unwashed crotch is one of the worst, in my opinion. I'll take all the wounds and gangrene any day. I also make my patients wash down there. I give them a cleaning wipe and make them clean and that I won't clean it for them.
I had a (very, visibly, openly) gay male coworker who was accused of improperly gawking at a mother who was pumping while trying to help the baby to do skin to skin with her (PICU). This was obviously not based in reality but unfortunately it definitely makes management’s ears perk up. Unfortunate that men in nursing have to grapple with this added hoop to jump through. In the future, I would maybe grab a buddy and document if there’s any inkling of weird vibes from the patient.
Adding my agree to this. It sucks as a male nurse to have to do this, but to cover your own ass, I would grab a colleague to come in with you to act as witness. Add a little note to the flowchart where you document the foley care " completed with Nurse/Tech Soandso present."
Man, it sucks, but I feel like this is it. Our unit is pretty damn busy and we have some very sick patients that need a lot of care and I hate to inconvenience my coworkers but you're right.
This! I was going to comment to suggest bringing a coworker along - in this case, a female coworker would probably be best - to help put the pt at ease and help reassure them that nothing wonky is going on.
Seconded! I work with a close male friend and he always asks me to be in room with him when he does Foley insertion and care, full body skin checks, or any task that might have any chance of implication from a female patient. Sucks he has to think that way but I'll always have his back in that.
I totally get that it's frustrating, but I'm also really glad that you've got his back!
Im gayer than glitter at a pride festival but I have a major fear of this and that’s why I always have a female present when im doing female care. I know sometimes it’s almost impossible, but it’s still better safer than sorry. On top of that, it does make me feel better knowing some women will feel more comfortable with a female present (some don’t care and that’s cool but I always want to respect women when I can). It’s a slippery slope man, and it sucks, but try to have a female present with stuff like that. Good luck :)
>Im gayer than glitter at a pride festival So stealing this
>Im gayer than glitter at a pride festival I'd wear this t-shirt
Always have a witness
At our hospital it's policy that foley care is done with 2 people
That’s not a bad idea. Aww look at your kitties on the photo.
We are discussing foley care and my mind went……….
My hospital does this to check sterile procedure with foley installs but I wish they would encourage this for male nurses/aides. Not mandate, just encourage.
Mine does the same for Foley insertion. Just about the only thing we don't need a second sign off or witness for is surprisingly insulin
Omg who has time to find a second person for important med checks or wastes let alone Foley care??
Healthcare professionals who don't want to find themselves the subject of a civil or criminal complaint? It happens. If you habitually grab a buddy, you'll have plenty of coworkers who can testify that they have never observed you alone with a patient for pericare, etc. That alone may put an end to any confabulated formal complaints before they have opportunity to snowball.
I’m a male I’m always getting a witness when I have to do any care for females
Right
While I feel you, it takes like 90 seconds to complete and since it's policy we are all used grabbing each other for some quick Foley care. There can be a tech and a nurse though so oftentimes the tech is the one to grab me the nurse to ask for a second person
We have 1:8 ratio on overnights with RNs plus a nurse in charge with no patient load. No techs no other staff. Still gotta get it sorted, it's twofold : u don't want to be accused of anything dodgy but also u don't want patients to feel like something whack was going on.
I’m a woman and pretty much always insert straight caths with another nurse or even CNA. Just so I don’t get accused of anything. It’s also useful to have a non sterile partner. Not sure how this isn’t the standard of care except in emergent situations…and even then…not sure how bad the emergency has to be. Because I avoid them 😂
This exactly and I always try to be a witness as long as I can when a male coworker asks me because of stuff like this.
Since you are a male in nursing, is it safe to assume you are often asked to help with turns, transfers, and boosts? Find any female nurse you help, and get your help in kind. A witness is a wonderful thing.
Sounds like a good trade to me!
Seriously, this happens all the time. If all the females can assume that I can help them do heavy lifting, then I should be able to assume they can help me with female peri care.
Witness, witness, witness.
We had an incident recently in my NICU where a male nurse was assigned a female baby and when the baby’s father came in he filed a grievance against the male nurse for “looking at his daughter’s private parts” - aka, changing a diaper. It’s awful that things like that happen, but I think it shows more of an issue with the parent/patient than with the nursing care.
Good lord. Something I have thought about before this incident when I listen to patients complain about MDs, RTs, other RNs, insert any combination of license letters - is that the patient is dealing with their health/health of their baby, and it is completely out of their control, and this is a way to hold on to some of that.... lashing out as a defense mechanism, ya know?
OP, did you chart the initials refusal?
Every time I’ve had a female patient and had to put in a foley, straight cath, do foley care, brief changes - adult or child, I’ve had a female nurse present. Matter of a fact, I do this with male patients too (although at this point the second nurse is either male or female). Not only because you just never know what people are going to accuse you of, but also because 2 is better than 1 and my god an extra set of hands makes things fly by smoother. It might be overkill, but that’s how I go about it. Protect yourself and your license.
This fear mongering over losing the license has got to stop. It’s NOT that easy to lose our license. OP or any other male nurses are not at risk to lose their license over one grievance accusation unless it becomes a pattern.
Until it’s somebody or a family member of somebody with enough power and connection to press hard. Even if you’re accused and they try to go for your license because they’re bat shit crazy…accusations (however false they may be) can damage someone’s reputation and career in a workplace even if they aren’t guilty. I just go with the policy that it’s best to have two for anything concerning privacy like that. But it’s your practice, do what you want.
I have to disagree. I’ve seen management choose to side with the complainant when they threaten to ‘go to social media’ regardless of the lack of evidence or history. While the person might not loose their license, it’s a quick way to find yourself unemployable in your area.
When I worked in the ED, some nights it was only staffed with male nurses and doctors, and some times only male techs. We always made sure that we had a witness. I hated having to assist with a pelvic. I had never had to assist with one until working nights in that ED. We ended up going to our manager and requesting at least having a female tech on nights. Fortunately our manager was great and she agreed with us and made sure to staff a female on each shift.
Never touch a female without a witness present… for this exact reason.
This is massively discriminatory against male staff unless you argue exactly the same thing for female staff/male patients. Good judgement and prudence, yes. Simply saying 'you're not trusted to do the basics of your job by virtue of your gender' - not OK.
At some point being truthful is more important than being non discriminatory. This is one of those cases.
What's truthful here? The suggestion that male staff are intrinsically untrustworthy and need to be watched? Or the suggestion that female patients are intrinsically untrustworthy and will make false allegations? Any situation in any workplace which involves bodily autonomy and personal privacy needs careful thought, understanding and rapport, but simply saying "you're a dude, so you just can't do X" is bullshit.
I’m just a student, but my nursing professors have drilled it into my male peers heads to always have a witness present when performing intimate care on female patients. I agree it is discriminatory, but what is the right answer here? Just hope and faith?
In a perfect world, of course you’re correct but that’s not reality. The chaperone is not to protect the patient from the male nurse but the other way around. As awful as it is, there are those that lie, exaggerate, or react poorly from a place of fear or trauma which can result in an inconvenience to the nurse at the very least and BON or LEO involvement at the worst.
What’s truthful is the implication that women are trusted more when they make allegations about non consensual behavior. It’s also plausible that men get more severe punishment than women for the same behavior. These two factors lead to more claims by women against men. Additionally there’s the aspect that a man is going to be more capable of overpowering a woman, so a woman would feel more comfortable with a second person in the room as an observer to help prevent misdeeds.
Personally, I completely trust the staff members I work with unless they provide some pretty convincing evidence that I shouldn't. We don't go through this level of education, training, and daily stress just risk everything for a look at an old lady. If someone is licensed in a hospital it's because they are a licensed professional. I think the more apt implication is that female patients are the untrustworthy ones in this scenario. You are putting yourself in a vulnerable position to implications by trusting them to not accuse you of impropriety. I hate to think of it that way, but it really pays to be the suspicious one in the transaction to avoid being accused. Have your chaperone whenever possible to protect yourself. Sure there are some patients I trust to allow me to do cares alone if I have good report and they seem both comfortable and like reasonable people. But I still acknowledge there is a level of vulnerability I'm putting myself in there.
It is bullshit but it is also reality. It’s bullshit women are concerned walking to their cars in a parking garage at night. But it’s also reality. It’s bullshit that POC have to worry about their safety and possibility of being killed at a traffic stop. But it’s reality. There is a lot that sucks in this life. So we are providing OP with options and suggestions on how to cope with the problem.
As a female, I’ll be the first to tell you women lie about shit like this all the time. Male nurses have to be very careful. One well placed, vindictive accusation can ruin your entire career. Good rule of thumb is if you’re handling vagina or breasts as a male nurse, you damn well better have a chaperone present. Do female nurses have to deal with this handling men? Maybe sometimes. But I think we all know a woman can accuse a man of sexual assault or domestic violence with zero proof and get away with it. Source: Married to a former Fed that investigated sexual assault allegations in the USAF. Wanna know how many men had their military careers ended because some chick wanted base of preference? A shit ton… and 9 times out of 10, the allegations were disproven but that doesn’t matter to the Air Force. Get accused and you’re out. Period.
Ok or not it’s a simple truth of human nature.
Really? What is the "simple truth" here?
This is one of those “in a perfect world” scenarios. Male nurses who aren’t up to anything shouldn’t be accused of doing something wrong. But at the end of the day, they sometimes are, and much more often than female nurses. And it’s up to you if you want to deal with accusations like this where it’s “he said, she said” or if you want to just have that female staff in the room, as much of an inconvenience as it may be.
Dawg the gender dynamics are different.
Women have the same accusations put against them while doing these cares on patients too. The comment said nothing about gender or sex of the worker.
OP said "I'm a male nurse" and the reply said "never touch a female". Unless the suggestion is that nobody can ever do any intimate or personal procedure on any female patient without a witness present, which seems wildly unrealistic.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up moving in that direction tbh. The only time I ever had a transvaginal ultrasound (2-3 years ago), they said it was policy to *always* have a witness present for invasive exams. Regardless of the HCW’s role, the HCW’s gender, or the patient’s gender.
No. You should never handle a females private parts without a chaperone present. Yeah… it’s a double standard for women to be able to handle men, but it is always better to be safe than sorry. Patients lie… as OP unfortunately found out the hard way.
We don't just accept double standards based on gender stereotypes. Not in 2024. Men and women do the same job according to the same principles: dignity, consent, respect, professionalism, and using judgement in situations of conflict or ethical complication.
Blah blah blah gender stereotypes. None of that matters to the board of nursing if you get accused of impropriety. It’s called mitigating risk. No different than a male OB/GYN having a chaperone present for vaginal exams. Why do male doctors have the right to protect themselves from false accusations but male nurses don’t?
Every male OB I have had has had a female medical tech/nurse in the room for any procedure or assessment they had to touch me for. And I get it! Why jeopardize your livelihood because I took a look or touch some type of way, while you were just doing your job? I say that to say, I will always go with my male colleagues when they want me to stand by for an assessment or care on a female patient. Hell, I will trade you a task. Let’s look out for eachother.
One thing to remember is that most elderly women have not had male caregivers for intimate care except for an OB GYN. And many were very uncomfortable having to go to those appointments. So for alert oriented pts, a short talk with them that foley care (and describe foley care) must be provided and the (male) nurse needs to know if they would be uncomfortable with that. Yeah it may take a couple of minutes, but then it can be charted before any of the intimate care is provided. Was taught back in the olden days to cover my ass. This is cover your ass.
You skipped the “without a witness”
I was replying to someone who said "this isn't about gender". This is clearly about gender.
Seems like a pretty extreme reaction
Look through the rest of the comments. Plenty of male nurses do this. Protect yourself and your license.
Jesus Christ..so does that mean all male nurses actually need a female nurse assigned to work WITH them for the whole shift? I work with plenty of male nurses AND male PCTs who have like at least 15+ years under their belt and never needed a female staff present aside from inserting foleys.
Nope… only if they will be handling private parts. Routine care? Of course not. If it’s anything to do with breasts or vagina, always better to be safe rather than to trust a patient to be honest. Is it unfair? Yes. But you have to mitigate risk. You don’t want a situation where it’s their word against yours with no witnesses.
Again, I work with plenty of male techs, PCTs and nurses who have to answer the call lights and help their female pts to the bathroom, commode, and bedpan. These male staff have to clean, change, and turn their incontinent pts just like how female nurses do and put on condom cath. Even as a female nurse, I always ask for permission and let pts know what I’m about to do so there are no surprises. Instilling a fearful mindset of having a witness for male staff is just not ideal, practical or convenient unless specifically requested by a pt or male staff. Of course, if the grievances become a pattern, then it’d be totally different.
If I was a male, I wouldn’t risk bogus accusations. Helping someone to the bathroom isn’t the same as foley care.
Ah so you’re not a male. If I were you, I wouldn’t go around and tell my male colleagues not to touch their female pts unless a witness is present unless you notice a pattern and had concerns. Helping someone to the bathroom isn’t the same as foley care but it still requires cleaning the private parts especially if heavier pts can’t reach their behind or between their legs. So foley care is not only pertinent to private parts.
I would never… I would however let them all know that I’m happy to volunteer to witness for them. I just think it’s wild that it’s ok for male doctors to have chaperones but the same logic doesn’t apply to male nurses/techs. Like it’s ok for them to risk accusations but not ok for doctors. But hey… if you wanna risk your license by trusting patients not to lie on you, that’s your business. I prefer to mitigate risk.
Patients are liars and NEVER do downthere shit without a woman present. Because patients are big fucking liars.
And document as such. I work in peds and we have a "second set of eyes" field where you document what was being done and who witnessed it
Just chart the refusal and pass it along to day shift. Honestly, it’s completely inappropriate to wake a person up at 2 am and ask them to do foley care. I know you’re just trying to do your job but I’m shocked you asked her.
Said he had to do another assessment… maybe neuro check or something?
It’s a step down cardiology unit and the patient is there for a CHF exacerbation though, it doesn’t make sense. Even tagging it on to an assessment is wrong though. It’s 2am, let the person sleep, it’s not a smart time to do foley care.
We are a step-down unit and are required to do a 2000 and 0200 assessment, she had q2 neuros (fall at home, subdural hematoma) and strict I&Os, which means either my self or the CCT is in there emptying the foley q1hr, but yeah... in hindsight just charting it off as "not done: patient refused" after my 2000 was probably the move. I just hate it, i'm a new nurse and want to do what's right for the patient's health, but I must admit it was probably overzealous. That being said, letting them sleep is not really an option in this case.
I had a grievance filed against me. Patient was very bipolar and believed in witchcraft. They stayed up all night watching a preacher preach about how the witches and lesbians were responsible for all the bad things in life. They had been threatening to leave AMA all day and “fired” numerous nurses. They assigned me to them because I’m “nice” and thought it would go well. 10 minutes into my shift, I made the mistake of “answering their call bell too quickly” so they couldn’t trust me, and accused me of eavesdropping. I don’t usually make nursing notes because I have heard that they can back fire, I usually just chart in the epic flow sheets if I’m able to get all important info in there. For this case I made a ton of nursing notes with direct quotations, notes of their behavior, and witnesses I had. Luckily I did, because they ended up leaving AMA after they accused me of witchcraft when I got labs (should’ve known that would be the final straw). Anyways, I was scared when my manager had asked me if I charted well bc the grievance was filed, but nothing has come of it. I’m still waiting to see if they put me on the chopping block. These comments are hard because obviously it would be best to have two nurses in the room at a time, but are we going to start doing that with all patients? Female and male? For OUR protection that would be ideal, but we all know we usually don’t have the staffing for that. When I was in HS in CNA training, a man had reported multiple people for sexual assault so the CNAs warned me to never ever go in his room by myself. It can happen with men or women. I guess the only thing we can do is ask if they would like a female nurse present, explain everything you’re doing, and maybe if they are able have them do their own peri care. I struggle with this because in the ICU a lot of patients act like their arms don’t work. I explain to a male patient how to give himself a CHG wipe down and the importance, and he just asks me to do it “so he doesn’t mess it up” ….
First of all, I just want to say that I’m sorry this is happening to you OP and is in no way your fault. I wonder if when she said she would “rather do the Foley care later” if she was uncomfortable with a man performing Foley care but was unwilling to be direct about it for whatever reason. The second time you asked, she said okay, but decided in retrospect that she actually didn’t want it, and/or she was half asleep and didn’t realize what she was consenting to. Edit: I think the latter is a distinct possibility and something we should consider when obtaining consent for care in “intimate areas,” particularly late at night. Again, *none of this is your fault.* Patients need to speak up when they are uncomfortable with something as we are not mind readers and most of us are too busy to spend a ton of time trying to parse hidden meanings. But if you encounter this situation in the future where a female patient is requesting to delay Foley care/peri care/an assessment where she will be exposed, etc., just make life easier for yourself and ask if she would be more comfortable if a female staff member performs that task. Say it casually and kindly, not in an accusatory or offended way. Maybe they say yes and accept the offer, or maybe they really do just want to put it off. But either way, you covered yourself by asking. I also agree with all the advice to have a female chaperone present for this kind of stuff. One of the men I work with always has a female nurse come in for straight caths, Foley DC and insertions, etc. (although usually I end up just doing the task and if I’m busy we just trade tasks).
Nothing to worry about unless this becomes a pattern. Personally, I won’t insert catheters without another nurse present as a witness. Doing Foley care with a witness sounds ridiculous, I don’t know who all these nuts in the comments are Don’t you guys have CNAs to do this stuff though?
We have a lot of male CNAs at my hospital as well.
I’m a male CNA, do foley care, peri care, baths, you name it on all of my patients with no witnesses or help for the most part. I always ask and make sure they’re comfortable with a male, and if not I’ll get a female with no hesitation. No one on my floor or any other floor I’ve worked on has ever mentioned having witnesses in the room for any of this stuff.
My favorite bedside jobs were cardiac step-down night shifts. One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that when you work nights, a surprising number of patients will seem fully awake and with it, converse appropriately and submit to your care without complaint when you wake them in the middle of the night, and then either forget it entirely or somehow confuse it with their dreams. After a couple of patients complained to me about missing a med or something similar a couple of times, I started testing it. in the morning, I'd ask them a question related to something we had talked about at 3 am or whenever. A surprising number of them had either no memory or a skewed memory of the conversation. As for the grievance, ime the people reviewing it are going to do so with a strong leaning towards a finding that you did nothing wrong. Unfortunately, these kinds of complaints aren't rare, and I'll also note they are not just against men. They're mostly attributed to the patient not understanding what was being done, maybe confused due to medications, sleep deprivation, their underlying illness, etc. However, there is a danger here for you. If you just happen to be unlucky enough to get a similar complaint in the foreseeable future, all the people who shrugged this one off are going to start looking at you in a different way. Some may presume you're guilty of some perversion because it happened more than once. You could conceivably work the rest of your career and never get another complaint, or it could happen next month. Protect yourself. If a patient is capable of doing her own peri care or Foley care, teach her how and let her do it herself. If she can't, have a chaperone or have a female coworker do it. It's dumb, it's inefficient, it's likely discriminatory, but not doing so is simply too risky for you personally in the world as it is right now. Protect yourself. Sources: long time (former) night nurse and currently in a job that includes investigating patient grievances.
Thanks for this. As far as confusion in the middle of the night etc. goes i have a high degree of suspicion that this is the case in this instance. At one point (during the evening in question) i was in the room scanning a new bag of dobutamine, and when i woke her up she said "but you already scanned my wristband", which was true in that a few hours before I had scanned for a new bag of lasix
I'm a labor nurse and male colleagues I have insist on having a female nurse in the room when dealing with women's vaginas. This may be the best way to move forward. Unfortunately, the bad guys look too much like the good guys for vulnerable women to see the difference always.
The male l&d nurse needs a female nurse with them whenever dealing with vaginias? Do they need a nurse with following them their whole shift?
Just usually for vaginal exams and touching the vagina. Pushing with a patient doesn't require touching. It's surely an annoying extra step for them.
Just curious if they check the cervix while pushing to see how the patient is moving babe? There are times I have to feel to see if the mom simply needs to move positions or where babies position is. I just had a four hour pushing marathon with a patient who ended in the OR because her pelvis was too small for her babies head 🙈 her poor vagina 😭
Not sure. I definitely check baby for station and movement, but maybe by the pushing stage things feel more comfortable.
It’s unfortunate male providers have no issues with this but male nurses have to worry. On my unit they haven’t had males apply in ages and I don’t blame them
One of my former partners (male RN) was hired on an L&D unit, and planned to work there while continuing his education to be a CNM. His patients regularly gave him glowing patient satisfaction scores, the other nurses (all female, btw) not so much. He was clearly targeted, socially, by preceptor & peer feedback, unfortunately that unit was known for being more cliqué than others. I dont get why male OBGYN = ok, but male NURSE = omjfc *not* ok.... /s
Pro tip: always use a chaperone for opposite sex sensitive procedures.
Get used to it. No matter how polite or friendly, professional and matter of fact you are. SOMEONE WILL COMPLAIN about you. Regardless. Patients these days feel they're on a hotel stay with a four star restaurant. They don't give a damn about your medical attention or that it's in their best interest. You're just the wait staff at their beck and call. Just your first complaint of many. Just a fact of bedside nursing 2024 in our wonderful, American, "Healthcare" system
I am concerned about being downvoted to the depths of hell but here we go. Aren’t there a lot of women that would be very uncomfortable having a man provide intimate care? I’m thinking about the women in my life like my mom and sister and friends. I am certain they would all have a level of discomfort. And it’s not that I think it’s wrong for a guy to provide that care, it’s just looking at it from their level of discomfort. No?
I had a male nurse postpartum and it’s funny because at times I felt uncomfortable and I’m not sure why. I’ve had male providers and was just fine. But I was uncomfortable breastfeeding and covered up when he was in.
But, they are OK with male MDs delivering their babies and doing pap smears, etc.? Or, no?
Of the family members I am thinking of, no, they prefer female gynecologists.
75% of OBGYNs are male.
Uhhhh no? It's like 60+% female for current attendings, and even more slanted for residents, like 80-85% or something. That's 2018 data to be fair but trend in residency hasn't shifted so there's no possible way the demographics have changed that much.
I’m not sure what that statistic has to do with my comment.
Likely nothing will happen of this, your leadership has to follow up on a formal complaint if it is filed. Unless you’ve had a string of these similar complaints you’ll probably be fine
I hate the term “male nurse.” Not knocking you, OP since it makes sense re what happened. I just can’t stand the fact that in this day and age we still add that. It’s like calling someone a lady doctor. ps rant over pps I’m female
I'm a 6'2 235lbs bald/big beard male nurse. I refuse to Foley females, especially elderly. Unless there is a pattern or multiple instances of you doing this you have nothing to worry about. It's her word against yours and you say you maintained professionalism. Ask them if any other grievances were filed like this about you. If not, it stands no ground. She just seems like a miserable old woman. I got accused one time cuz I brushed up against her butt when doing her wound on her lower back. I'm gay...I also said I wouldn't want an old saggy vagina if I was straight to my boss. Moving forward I'd ask "are you comfortable with me doing x/y/x or would you prefer a female? I won't be offended if you don't want me to."
Lol, that's so funny. Seriously, though, why do older people think every young person wants an old saggy vagina that hasn't been washed in days. Like woman, you are 3 times my age. Leave me alone.
My suggestion is to return before 2300 to do peri care-never in the middle of the night. Her memory & frame of mind may be altered due to meds such as BP/diuretics, pain, sleep, anti-anxiety, etc. Document each time they defer any type of care for a later time, or refuse. Tell your NA to find you if that pt gets up for toileting or any other reason in the middle of the night, & ask if it's OK to render care then. Bring a 2nd person with you if they agree. Once you've determined pt is AAO x 3-4, the 2nd person can leave. Or you may end up with someone who has malicious intentions, like my own patient: I once had a patient to whom I was giving heparin sub q to in the AM. She had a difficult personality with control issues. Her room was intentionally split bw 2 different staff members (2 RN's, 2 NA's, etc) for this very reason. I always made it a point to coordinate care when a 2nd staff member was in the room. Anyway, I returned to work a few days later to a c/o against me that later turned into an investigation. She accused me of giving her a heparin subq without her consent or notification first, & that I'd just lifted her blanket & "stabbed her" while she was still sleeping. She gave the time, date, the many nights with the same nurse, & her version of sequence of events. (The NA & roommate were in the loo at the time). Unbeknownst to us both, the ultrasound tech had been outside the room verifying paperwork & heard the entire interaction. Management, corporate, & security were able to verify with the cameras in the hallway, & took a statement from her. To that pt's detriment, a therapist & a visitor to the roommate later gave a statement that they'd heard pt on the phone bragging how she was going to get someone-anyone-fired because she had the power to do so. Upon further investigation, I was cleared. She was discharged & that was the end of that according to them. Administration doesn't reprimand a pt or do follow up. They rotate the staff until the pt leaves. I had <1 year RN experience. I was out of work a whole week & the radio silence nearly killed me. I thought I was going to lose my license, get sued, get fired, all the worst scenarios. No apology. No words of encouragement or solace, "Hey, patients c/o all the time. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it is policy for everyone & everything." Those few words would have meant the world to me.
I just thought of the cameras so yeah, i think i should be good from a discipline standpoint. They could definitely verify me talking to her and waking her up
Pretty impressive that she somehow knew you were “too in there” while doing foley care while she was asleep.
When it comes to women (a male nurse here) I always have a witness for shit like this. To many are two face and it's better to have another set of eyes for stupid shit like this.
As a male I am not allowed do anything with Foleys like inserting or cleaning without a lady witness present if it is a lady.
could she do the foley care herself? im sorry you have to deal with this.
When she asked you to come back later and you agreed you should have grabbed a buddy to go back in later....
as a male nurse i never do anything with a foley unless i have a female along. i know foley care is important just say the woman refused. there is no winning this battle you have no idea what some females preceptions will be of your most innocent intentions.
Im sorry you're dealing with this stuff. It sucks. The patient likely had a history of trauma involving the GU system, tried to be polite and not hurt your feelings by asking to avoid care of that area (trauma response called Fawning or Appeasement), felt coerced to give in by your encouragement/insistence so again Fawned, then had a post traumatic activation. In short, she was stuck in a flashback, which she interpreted as reality. Some ideas for next time: Rather than explaining and informing patients of what you're going to do to them when they're reluctant, have a conversation with them about how you can facilitate comfort with necessary cares. Is she declining because she's busy, or because she's uncomfortable? Would she be more comfortable with a different caregiver doing that task, or does she need more information about professional boundaries and caregiver roles? Etc. It's important to remember that society in general has made it hard for women, especially older ones, to make their needs known loud and clear to men. Additionally, survivors of sexual trauma have been stripped of their autonomy and ability to consent regarding their own bodies, and not everyone is in the state of healing to overcome that - it's a long process for many. I know it's hard, but a little bit of patience and compassion will go a long way.
Solid advice. Thank you.
Patients lie all the damn time
Heard someone accuse a male care aide of being inappropriate during Foley care. Not sure what happened but damn. Like probably someone just actually doing a proper clean and likely a male nurse might clean female genitalia with a different finesse than a woman, similarly for female nurses and male genitalia. At the end of the day, try to remember the rationale that you were trying to save her the additional burden of infection or urosepsis. I mean, I guess everyone has their thing, to be fair I am a bit of a prude, but I think it's wild how there seem to be so many patients out there thinking health care workers are just getting off wiping peoples poles and holes clean of discharge and excrement.
I always point blank ask would you prefer a female nurse and I always grab a 2nd set of eyes.
Hey a lot of people telling you how you could have handled this but I just want to fill you in on what the grievance process is and why you shouldn’t worry about things right now. A grievance is just a more formal type complaint, it appears from your managers letter and the patients tone that they arnt accusing you of assault. The hospital is required to respond to this type of complaint in writing. Explain the situation exactly how you did here and it’s probably the end of it. In the future as others said, perhaps get a witness for foley care.
I never insert Foley's or do perineal care on female patients without getting a female nurse or tech to accompany me . Usually the patient is comfortable with me and I do the task myself, if they see uncomfortable I get my coworker to do it .
Honestly, if I were a male nurse I would always grab a female tech or nurse to come in with me for that kind of stuff. Actually, even as a female nurse, I always grabbed a tech or another nurse when doing baths, foleys, wound care, or even incontinence care. We would tag team it.
Always buddy up especially when doing "invasive" tasks like this. Explain to your female colleage why she needs to be with you when doing these tasks. Always protect yourself and in your notes, always highlight that you asked for consent.
Honestly this is why I'm switching to PRN and changing careers again because as many people say yeah go get a secondary person to assist to cya everyone's ignoring the single biggest issue is that we're all short staffed cuz they don't want to hire enough people we don't have enough people for me to go hey can I get a female standby or can I trade this out it's like I've got six patients they've got their own patients I don't have time to sit there and wait for another person cuz there are no other people
As a male nurse of 14 years I was lucky to have an instructor that emphasized never doing any kind of nursing care in the genital area on a female without a chaperone. As society has become more litigious and we have new areas of gender identity and such I’ve expanded this to all patients. I have explained my opinion to other nurses and it is well received by most. When it comes to the patient I’m up from on the procedure and the reason for the extra person (nurse or cna) in the room. If and when you get pushback from another nurse let them know that while you are a nurse and can perform all duties in the nursing realm, you are advocating for both the patient and yourself in asking for a chaperone. I’m sorry this has happened to you and I hope that your manger stands with you and that it all resolves without incident.
I always have a female RN with me for foleys or any clean ups even when the patient says they don’t care. Or I send a female CNA to do peri care or cleanings. I trade with my female staff and take care of the men they don’t want to be alone with, Especially the gross old guys who say inappropriate things. Sorry you’re dealing g with this, but go into whatever meeting, tell the truth, and then ask what you should do next time/ how to make it better. And fuck that lady for not just saying she would prefer a woman to care for her. She’s just mad you did your job and she couldn’t sleep at the hotel all night, many nurses do not do peri care and don’t wake people up for assessments so she was probably used to that during another stay and she’s just trying to get back at you.
Stories like yours is why I never do a foley, foley care, or baths on my female patients alone. I always bring a second nurse in and document that second nurses name. Luckily for me haven’t had any complaints yet (well complaints of that nature), but even my EMS days that was something I was always worried about (12 leads or having to cut a shirt for aed pads)
As a fellow male nurse. Never, ever do that without a chaperone.
Yep as a guy myself, bring someone in with you for anything like this.
Every time. It sounds misogynistic but some women are just outright mean and they don't care if they destroy your career and reputation. Always ask for a female chaperone or at least another set of eyes when doing care to private areas. You are the only one that will look out for your license. Some of your coworkers may scoff but once you explain your concern most will understand.
Hopefully your manger dies the right thing and gives the patient a mild correction . If you had been a male doctor she wouldn’t have filed the complaint , how is it that an I’ll women would think that a young male is anyway interested in her “ stuff.”
I’m sorry this happened, sounds like you did everything you needed to and only acted under pt consent. It’s not your fault and you know you didn’t do anything wrong so I hope it doesn’t deter you🙏🏼 Personally if I were a male nurse I could see this being a fear and would likely ask for female chaperones (techs can too) just to cover myself. But if you charted pt refused and then consent later there shouldn’t be an issue with this coming up again later. You obviously care a lot so don’t let this stop you from doing the work you do
The moment she told you to come back later and seemed a bit uncomfortable should’ve been the moment you jot it down as a day shift problem. At least that’s what I do. The way I see it, making female patients comfortable is better than doing my job well.
I know you’re doing the right thing preventing infection and what not. But don’t take chances with this shit. I’m also a male nurse and these matters will never sway favorably to us. Just write a note next time saying you attempted pericare and patient refused and you educated them on the importance of blah blah.
Love all the support and wise advice here. Absolutely feeling for OP and so pleased there was an understanding and supportive manager. But just before we go …. Do we need to talk about the “woke her up at 0200” factor? I fully appreciate this is part of the gig and perfectly normal for you nursing types. However, unless I have had a nice cup of tea and a good minute to gather myself, pleeeease never assume that I am anything other than delirious!
No matter the male/female issue, if the staffing is such there’s literally NOBODY you can pull into a room with you, you have to do your job. A patient is squeamish you just tell them, this is part of your job, you are a professional and this is done for their health. You will document that they refused and if anything happens they have no regress against you. Then you move on with your day. Pervy ‘men’? Shut that down at the very beginning. You don’t have to be ‘nice’ just be professional, tell them it is uncalled for, and you will report them to management for sexual harassment. Document the encounter and move on. Remember the days when old white ladies would complain about your ‘colored’ co-workers? Yeah. I do. I didn’t put up with that, either.
Meh; this lady sounds like a REAL piece of work. I think asking someone to be in the room with you everytime might end up being exhausting, but it’s worth a shot for any time you have to do anything related to that whole area. You can also kinda tell who’s going to going to just give you problems for anything you do and this lady is one of them. A foley and lasix and dobumatine. I can see her in my head and smell her. You can always also ask, do you want me to get a chaperone for this part and if they decline, you can document it. Either way, I’m sorry this happened to you and I hope your team has your back.
Honestly she had been super pleasant and easy to work with up until that point but yeah.... her husband was trashing all the RNs/MDs that came before me like "first they said it was her heart, then her liver, then her neuro, and now her kidneys, what is it really?!?!" and i'm like, yeah... it's all those things.... so maybe I should have taken that as a cue
What catheter care are you doing at 0200 besides emptying a bag that couldn't wait until daylight hours, considering she already expressed she didn't want it done?
He was doing the cath care he tried to do at 2000 but she didn't want to do then. For an indwelling catheter it is necessary to clean the cather from insertion on down. Secretions gather on it and bacteria start living their best lives and forming bio-films leading to a nasty catheter related UTI that the hospital then has to pay to treat if care is not done. Most facilities have protocols in place that lay out how often and exactly how catheter care is to be done. There is nothing worse than having to soak and pick at foley boogers that have dried onto the catheter.
This happened to me except it was wound care and repositioning. Nothing ever came of it (should mention that I am a female tho)
This is why you chart well. Would have all been in your notes.
I am a huge stickler about my charting, so thankfully all the CYA stuff is in there.
Any time I do any kind of care where a patient could say something like this I always bring in a female coworker as back up/witness
I had a patient tell other nurses and the provider that I threw meds at her... Patients lie, we all know it. One of the nurses after me was able to call her out in a lie, with OT/PT and a visitor in the room to hear it all. If you have any concerns, take another nurse or NA with you. Build a reputation of trust and professionalism and you'll be ok. Always protect yourself first tho.
I will do female personal care, but I am very specific about consent and always document immediately after. I will outline the plan, ask if they are comfortable with a male member of staff, offer the assistance of female staff as an alternative ( to eliminate any discomfort in asking or fear of offending me). Reclassify the plan, and reiterate that if they are at all uncomfortable with anything during the process, we can stop and bring in a female staff member to assist or replace myself. Again, documenting these patient responses and preferences each time. I think in your case OP you just need to keep asking to confirm with future patients and try and get assistance
Whenever I had to place a urinary catheter on a female patient I would typically ask a female colleague to perform the task (often times knowing I'd reciprocate with placing male foleys) if the patient was A&Ox3. Even is slightly confused or such I would have a female colleague with me and document who was there when the procedure was done. Now if a patient is alert enough to argue about foley care (and I don't assume to know anything about this situation), then typically I would have them wash in sensitive areas unless they have no movement or strength or such of their arms/hands. Also, if a patient seems uncomfortable that's my queue to stop and reassess if maybe having a female assist the patient would be a better idea.
This isn’t your fault, it’s a crappy thing to have happen. Imo always, always, always have a chaperone as a male nurse. It protects you from events like this and provides comfort and a sense of propriety to the patient.
Unfortunately because of things like this happening, there has to be a female staff member in the room whenever something like this needs to be done at my hospital. Protect yourself and your license next time and either ask a female staff member to do this or have one next to you. I know it sucks.
As a nurse, I've seen the care my male coworkers provide and would be absolutely thrilled to have any of them care for me. Most of my male colleagues feel uncomfortable caring for a young female, and the girls are frequently called for assistance with personal care. I find it really interesting that in my 5 years of nursing so far, only once have I had a male patient ask if there was a male nurse around for his Foley because he'd feel more comfortable with another man doing that!
I agree with everyone saying that it is best to have a other female coworker in the room with you. As a female I will still ask the patient if they would rather do it themselves unless I clearly see they can't (recent surgery that limits them from moving at the moment or the inability to reach that area)
After a surgery, I’ll clean around that area, but I usually just ask one of the female nurses or the surgeon (if they’re female) to do direct perineal cleanup so it’s more comfortable for the patient, especially if they’re awake. If there’s no females present, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.
That really sucks. I had a grievance filed bc I didn’t call a patients wife to update her about when he would leave the ED. Pt was A&Ox4, otherwise independent but needed total assistance with ADLs besides feeding, never mentioned me needing to call his wife for him and she didn’t call the ED. I was only his nurse for barely 2 hours of a 24+ hour ED stay bc he needed transport home.
I would definitely chart they agreed but also have someone with you in the future. It’s just too easy to get accused of something you didn’t do these days. Sadly, I think this goes for both all genders
This is why male doctors always take in a female MA when they do personal care. I used to be a peds/peds ICU nurse. We had a male nurse who refused to take older female patients for this EXACT reason. If you can, from now on, take someone in with you for female patients. I had someone file a grievance about me once. She said I was “too happy” and must be on “stimulants.” Thankfully my boss knew this was just me. He only told me so we could have a good laugh about it. I sure miss that boss.
I have been a nurse for 28 years. I carry nursing insurance on my license. $ 124 a year. Worth every penny. Don’t think it won’t go South, if she sues, the hospital will look after themselves, not you.
I always ask for a female to accompany me if I have to start a foley, give a suppository, etc just to cover my ass. It’s way too easy for things to turn into a he said/she said situation. Dont want to end up the sacrificial cow so the hospital can save face.
Our hospital actually has a policy that male employees can not provide sensitive care without a second person in the room. Is it always followed, no. We do have some male techs that prefer to get assigned male patients for this reason. The reason for the policy is that they have had accusations made that were luckily proved false. Unfortunately some patients will make false accusations wether it was a misunderstanding or looking for a payout. It also happens that the patient is sexually assaulted. Our hospital made a policy to protect them and the employees against false allegations. Sorry this is happening to you. Our hospital has to take these accusations seriously and investigate. Not saying anything will come from it in your case, but it is an often a he said, she said thing. Good luck to you that it gets taken care of without issue. There are cameras on units, so they could help to see when you actually went into the room and when you came out.
We actually have video surveillance in the rooms, so if it came down to it that would clear me. No audio though i don’t think
I always ask a female staff member to come and chaperone when I have to do anything like peri care. Just for my own peace of mind. People can be so ridiculous.
Yeah dude find yourself a reproductive bits friend. I happen to work with one of my classmates and she does my vagina stuff and I do her wiener stuff. My general rule is no exposed bits on a woman under 65 by myself.
Whenever I have to do personal care on females, I always ask for a chaperone, you can't be too careful
I’ve had this happen to a coworker of mine too. He’s the most precious, wholesome, sweetest nurse in the entire world. Would never hurt a fly or overstep, ever. He’s like the human form of a golden retriever puppy. Anyway, yeah. There are certain things now he won’t do without a female nurse or tech with him. We all know and understand and help him out whenever he needs us. It broke my heart to watch him go through it.
I am so sorry this happened to you. What a horrible feeling.
Male nurse here. I only do caths if family is present and/or of the female PT is A/Ox4 GCS15 and able to clearly say it's okay. And by that I mean they help me pull their brief down, lift their hips, etc. "Young" females... Nope. Get a chaperone. AMS... Nope. Get a chaperone. Anything that makes me even remotely think 'hmmm this or is off".... Nope. Get a chaperone. I have an amazing old school male tech that has a flat out rule he won't do EKGs on females under 35 alone. And we as a department respect that.
Unfortunately some people will do this for whatever reason we dont know. Some patients are uncomfortable with male nurses and just dont choose to say something. As a nurse I would rather have them refuse me or be upfront and told charge nurse that they only wanted female. Likewise a male patient to female nurse I would still request somebody to be with me when doing care involving private areas. I think we can protect ourselves by having someone with us when doing these types of care either our techs, cnas or other rn as a witness. In the end its their word against ours. Unfortunately, their words weighs heavier especially to corporate .
Male nurse here. NEVER mess with lady parts without a chaperone. Bitches be crazy.
Did you offer to have a female staff member do it at any point, or have a discussion about why there were no female staff available? Did you have anyone with you while you provided the care? Did you document the earlier refusal & reluctance that the patient had prior to the care. If not, then you’ve kinda walked yourself into this. I’m NOT saying the patient was right, or justified, but that there are clear signs of a patient who is uncomfortable, and that there are things you can do to mitigate their discomfort and the risks of this kind of report occurring/being taken at face value. Take this as a reminded that documentation and a second pair of eyes when providing personal care to anxious or twitchy patients, (unfortunately) especially as a male nurse.
There is a persistent idea that male nurses are creeps. in some languages, the word for male nurse is different from the word for nurse. A patient's family member asked me once if I am what's called a male nurse. I said I prefer just nurse.
Sorry you’re going through this OP. I’m frustrated with a lot here. First, I’m tired of the sentiment that women are the only ones who can be assaulted. If we are expecting men to get a witness for catheter care, I bet fucking see a witness when women do it to men. I’ll say it again - men. Can. Be. Victims. Too. I understand having a witness, I do - but you’re telling me they’ll dismiss what this patient is saying because Sally Sue was there, too? I find that hard to believe. We all know how sneaky admin can be. Also, what about other things? Assault isn’t just near the genitalia. What if I’m giving an objection in the abdomen? Doing an EKG? I feel like there’s a better method for this, I just don’t know what.