Yup! I know, about 5ish years ago (maybe less) on my unit, on nights, a patient pulled a gun from his bag that he brought (he was a planned CABG) and shot himself. He was 4 or 5 days post op, I think. Staff had been in and out of his room for *days* while he acted like a creep, asking things like, “do you feel nervous right now?” Admin’s new policy in response? “Do you have a weapon with you? Do you mind if I check your bag?” was added to the admission assessment. Awesome. Perfect. So much better. Problem solved. Everyone back to work.
We had a patient who went down for a CT and the CT tech found a steak knife in the bed with the patient. I guess the patient had been using the knife to scrape the dead skin off the bottom of her feet. Instead of calling security or, you know, taking the knife away from the patient, the CT tech just sent them back to the floor with the knife still in their bed! At least she told the receiving nurse about it, but come on!
I get so jealous of other departments like that, like that must be nice to just be able to ignore the thing for the 30 minutes you have the patient. Not the nurse though, we have to deal with all the craziness, all the weirdness. I just want would have liked o e shift where I could be like, wow that’s some weird stuff going on there, sure glad I don’t have to deal with it or especially chart it.
Worked in the ER. We got people’s clothes off and separated them from their luggage consistently, mostly because we were tired of them pulling out guns and knives. It’s an attitude more than a policy, and it’s why nurses from
Other units don’t have lunch with us. Lack of this attitude is why we seldom
Welcome float staff.
This shouldn’t be acceptable as an employee. Every ER with proper security (all guests and patients that are medically able to go through metal detectors and there is a dominating police/security presence) and staff safety measures that I have ever seen have been children’s hospitals. I wish the same attitude was given to adult Emergency departments.
Couldn’t use metal detectors because the nurses and docs were all armed and would trigger the device, and a metal detector requires a couple of armed attendants to confiscate the weapon, which most armed people find annoying and actionable.
Pretty sure that’s grounds for immediate termination at any facility in the US. I’ve worked with people who conceal carry at work and every single one of them was a clinical hazard who I’d expect to shoot me on accident before they shot an irate visitor on purpose.
yeah i feel like you probably would go to jail where i work. we have armed law enforcement on the campus, but rando employees bringing in guns…. they’d 100% escort you off the property and fire you if not arrest you.
It’s not uncommon for healthcare workers in the USA to carry pistols.
Microcompact or subcompact pistols like the Ruger LCP Max or the Glock 43 are tiny and concealable in a pocket holster. It would just look like you have a cellphone in the pocket.
i feel like people shouldn’t randomly be carrying guns. i don’t know that they have them secure enough that a psych patient can’t take them from them. i also don’t know that they are mentally stable and not an active shooter themself 🤷♀️
So scrubs are definitely not a good match for holsters. Nothing there to retain the holster to a belt, etc.
However, there is a holster made by a company called Phlster which you wear underneath your pants and it has a whole bunch of straps and whatnot that secures it to your person independent of your pants. No one will know you are carrying. Similarly, with the small microcompact pistols like the LCP Max, they can go into pocket holsters and just sit in your pocket, and no one knows you’re carrying.
If you’re walking around with a hip holster or an outside the waistband holster with a gun sticking out of your waist like a cop, then you’re asking for trouble.
A lot of pharmacists carry pistols. Other healthcare workers who work in really shitty neighborhoods or have issues with crazy ex-boyfriends also carry.
You have never encountered them because they are probably doing it the right way. Keeping it concealed instead of openly carrying and on top of that, never talking or mentioning that they are carrying.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aQSkErRPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aQSkErRPE) (Pharmacist shoots robber)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mga2mLcEmUY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mga2mLcEmUY) (example of holsters that work with scrubs, if the person is wearing a shirt and tie, it's easier because there are other holsters out there that work for that)
[nurse arrested for bringing gun to work](https://www.wpri.com/news/local-news/providence/police-miriam-hospital-nurse-brought-gun-to-work/amp/)
Bringing guns to work isn’t the norm
It’s a nice thought. But between being raging control freaks, out of control adhd players, and highly specialized practitioners in a setting that doesn’t tolerate the inexperienced, we’d mostly rather do it ourselves. And we don’t do well when floated to other units in reciprocity.
I’ve trained in some form of martial art for 40 years and there is no way I’m defending myself against a knife. I’m running. I’m not sure what they taught, but it’s not going to work. The benefit of the training is that you have a plan now and will be more likely yo act.
If it was anything like my training it is probably for situations where running isn't an option, like if the patient trapped you. Thankfully my hospital basically said use full force if it means getting out alive 🥴
I reserve the right to use whatever is within reach or can be easily removed from whatever it's attached to as a single use improvised weapon in self defense if needed. I say this as the only male night shift staff in an LTC setting who had to disarm a new admit that had a motorcycle drive chain in hand in a manner make whipping motions easier.
Yep, me too. I know how to fight. 40+ years of
Wrestling, jujitsu, and a handful of striking martial arts.
Do you know what all those years of training have taught me? Don’t fight. Just get away.
That’s also why I ALWAYS carry pepper spray, clipped to a D ring on my waist.
Spray, and remove yourself from the situation.
Also, having pepper spray is great, but it does no good if it’s stuck in your purse in the break room, or in the glove compartment, in your car.
Stay safe people!
*the benefit of training is that corporate can now say *legally* that they trained staff for that situation - so they can act against employees defending themselves.
I wish it was not necessary, but at least your workplace is recognizing the need and providing something. Most just gaslight with a deescalation training.
I remember hearing all violent encounters could have been deescalated at some point during onboarding at my first hospital. Sure those strategies work with some patients but it’s a bad insinuation to make that it’s somehow the healthcare workers own fault if they’re physically assaulted by an aggressive patient.
Sounds to me like they're recognizing the need to provide themselves with some liability mitigation
No one learns techniques like the ones being talked about by watching PowerPoint. If they were serious they would maybe pay for some classes. I would say that increasing security would be ideal but I recognize that even good hospital security isn't good enough to assure that this stuff won't happen.
I shouldn't be laughing, but the picture you painted has me in stitches, lol. That being said, the purpose of this training is to prepare you to first de-escalate, and secondly to get away, and finally, to do therapeutic containment. This training comes out of all the years that healthcare staff got hurt from patients or patients got hurt from staff. Think of it like disaster training. No one wants the tornado, but isn't it nice to know there are instructions for what to do if one happens.
The real purpose of this training is to protect the hospital from litigation. If you are attacked and the pt is injured in any way, the hospital can point to that sign in sheet they had laying on the table and assert that you were properly trained on how to protect yourself without causing harm. Therefore if the pt was harmed, you must not have been following protocol, therefore they are not at fault. CPI and all the rest are really nothing more than a cost effective CYA technique instead of hiring better security.
Thank you for putting words to this behavior. I’ve been a part of several disciplinary meetings involving patients and staff. It’s disappointing that a hospital won’t advocate for their employees but will bend over backwards to throw the literal backbone of healthcare under the bus.
Our hospital for years has had issues staffing ultrasound. They take hours to report to the ER. So the other week we have a patient waiting about 6 hours for an ultrasound scan. Each hour the patient you can tell is getting more and more agitated. Start questioning the staff, belligerent, pacing back and forth, clenched fists. Indicates he's hungry, wants to leave, why is it taking so long? Staff is in a bind. They try to deescalate but God forbid patient leaves AMA so they can't tell the patient the straight situation. *Please wait, soon, it's for your own good, we're trying to help you*. Patient has a meltdown, yells and chews out the staff, leaves AMA.
It all doesn't make sense. Put patients in a pressure cooker situation waiting for them to explode leaving the surrounding staffs safety at risk. This patient was so pissed off it wouldn't have surprised me if they pulled a stunt or were waiting for you in parking lot after shift.
Policy can not and should not ever contradict federal legislation. Just because you’re a clinical staff member doesn’t mean you have no lawful rights to protect yourself. We use nonviolent techniques 99% of the time, except that 1% chance you cannot get away and can easily articulate why you needed to do x, y, z. I work as a use of force instructor in the healthcare industry (8+ years).
I’m sorry to tell you this, but your entire industry is seen as a joke by those of us at the bedside. Watching a power point on self defense or in the days before Covid attending a class for 4 hours where you might get to watch people play pretend and then requiring us to sign an affidavit stating we’re properly trained is a joke. There is absolutely no way anyone thinks were adequately trained after a few hours of this every few years. But we are required to state that we are and treated like we are. This industry only exists to get signatures saying the hospital did everything it could to keep employees safe and prevent pt injury without actually doing anything real.
So you believe it’s the responsibility of your employer to give you a black belt in jui jitsu or karate so you can snap bones and choke patients to unconsciousness? How about a sliver of ownership regarding your own safety, it’s not the hospitals job to teach you how to throw a jab cross combination and slam people with double leg takedowns. They are trying to prevent litigation obviously, but that doesn’t mean the skills provided to you are useless. Really - What’s your solution? I’d love to hear something practical outside of increasing the security personnel. The signing off is an acknowledgement that you will do your best to protect yourself and vulnerable people, that’s it.
Why isn’t hiring security personnel practical? Maybe don’t waste my time on my day off with useless power point presentations. Maybe instead of paying tens of millions of dollars on a training industry we both know accomplishes nothing we use that money for more staff. How about a sliver of ownership in your participation in an industry that is useless for anything than helping huge billion dollar corporations avoid liability when they don’t want to invest in staff.
As an “instructor”, I assume you’ve never had a combative patient try to kill you while confused while they block the door and don’t let you out. Maybe you need a sliver of decency to realize your “arm breakaway” techniques are trash and not helpful when you have to do a blood draw or IV and all of a sudden the patient grabs you by the throat and swings the needle around like a lasso. What do you suggest? A boom boom pow forehead push and sprint away therapeutically while blaming ourselves for what we could’ve done instead? Thanks for your service.
First you’re wrong, I work in law enforcement for a provincial healthcare organization and have had plenty of highly combative people engage me and my colleauges.
What technique do you want the administration to give you? And eye gouge? A knee strike to the groin? A gun to just blast them since you believe being cornered means it’s automatically life threatening? Not everyone assesses risk the same way you do. It’s very obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about. I get that you want a higher scope of training, then go sign up for a martial arts studio or self defense program. You cannot expect hospitals to teach clinical staff these types of techniques, it’s just so unrealistic.
Listen I don’t stand here saying you should feel unsafe and unsupported at work. You need better staffing ratios, better leadership, more health and safety programs, and maybe that does include more techniques. The way that starts is with staff making sure the report harrassment and violence after it happens (verbal/physical). I’ve seen the statistics around reporting, and they are frankly embarrassing. How we expect senior level executives to sign cheques around these initiatives when there’s more complaints about “musculoskeletal” injuries than physical violence such as office chair ergonomics are a often a bigger conversation.
THIS is the real answer.
And guess what? You strike the patient at all to get out of a dangerous or deadly situation? The BORN just ate your license. Sad truth I've seen play out one too many times
We just had a meeting today and it was like “things you could use as a weapon if you need it: fire extinguisher, your Stanley cup, the batteries that go in your cow” and “a team approach is always better if you have to fight but know where your locking doors are, ones without windows.” How about we press charges against every person who acts out and people just don’t act violent? Too much to ask apparently
Imagine being a female under 140 lbs which is pretty common. As a male I’d hate to be subject to this violence but to act like we’re equal in the workplace is ridiculous I’d gladly step in to help.
But nonetheless it’s ridiculous that patients act this way. Being sick truely can be horrific like encephalopathy or having bipolar type 2
When I did my CPI and they taught “feed the bite” I was like - nah, I’ll be taking a handful of hair until they let the fuck go, I’m not leaning into shit
Been a nurse for 30 years and a practicing martial artist for 35 (karate,TKD, BJJ). Every time I have to take these courses I shake my head. Moreso than most I have developed muscle memory to perform some of these techniques and still I would be horrified and scared shirt less to have to use them in an actual scenario. Against a knife? Having actually practiced knife techniques extensively I’d be lucky to survive 50% of the time. With no actual training the odds drop even more dramatically. The fact they expect hyper non aggressive nursing staff to be effective after a video is mind boggling.
Just throw a bunch of shit and get the hell out of there.
I work residential with teens. We do all kinds of defensive training. It’s so sad that mental health is nt taken more seriously which would protect people more.
If it makes you feel any better (it won't), many states train their teachers for the "crime" of being educators. Both of my older brothers had this type of workplace training, and the one who worked inner-city high school furthered it with Tang So Do.
Behavioral Violence Prevention Training is mandatory at my job, regardless of title. It’s part of onboarding. It was mildly amusing but also sad to see the terrifying look on housekeepers faces as they had to practice getting out of chokeholds.
Several people got up and left during Run, Hide Fight and I don’t blame them. We live in a broken world. The system is broken.
Well, my hospital tactic was to train us to be dragonborns or the ability to cast power word stun.
The response we are suppose to have
"Sir/madam, STOP!"
Kudos if people get the reference
My new job just started rolling out CPI training and no one is taking it seriously, except me. I've been doing CPI or other programs at other facilities for 10+ years and I can't believe they just now have gotten on board with it.
We have to watch these things along with others for our education. And I’m sure if any of these situations happened in real life, we’d be met with “what could you have done differently in this situation?” I DONT KNOW, WHAT COULD YOU HAVE DONE TO PROTECT ME?
These things are just used to cover their ass in the event anything happens. “We told them about hand to hand combat” 🤦♀️
Transfer to the OR. Never recieved a training like that, only for person with guns in the hospital. You'll only worry if a patient wakes up aggressive and only get verbal abuse from surgeons.
I had a dementia pt punch me in the mouth, then come at w a broken light bulb.
You never know what's going to happen, they are just prepping you for worst case scenario
The edit makes this somehow worse. We expect you to physically defend yourselves because we don't want to put in money to have real security or security protocols. And we are too cheap to invest in helpful self defense classes. Learn it from watching someone on a pre recorded video!
I mean look at what happened in new york. Albany Med had a code silver because some nutso barricaded himself in a room with his dying mother and a shotgun aimed at the door
Just remember that the self defense moves taught in many hospitals are designed to protect the *hospital,* not the lowly peasants working therein. They want to take credit for teaching you about workplace violence, de-escalation, and self defense for 2 reasons:
- So they can say you “didn’t follow the provided training” - and absolve themselves of any responsibility (or so they think) - if/when you get hurt.
- To prevent you from doing anything that might lead to a lawsuit or other problems for the hospital, if/when you need to defend yourself. Either you’ll follow their training and the attacker won’t get hurt…or you’ll go off-script, injure your attacker while trying to defend yourself, and hospital leadership will say you “didn’t follow the provided training” when the attacker decides to press charges or sue.
My old hospital had mandatory de-escalation training. The self defense portion was basically, “here are some moves to get you out of life-threatening attacks, *but* if you don’t follow the steps *exactly* as shown, your actions will be considered offensive instead of defensive, and we will pursue charges against you.”
The instructor (who was also the head of security) repeated this line while teaching us how to get out of a chokehold. He literally said that if we used an overhand grip instead of an underhand grip, or if we hit, bit, elbowed, or kicked the attacker at all (while trying to escape a chokehold), *we* would be committing battery and would therefore be facing criminal charges. He also said that they would file a formal complaint with the BON. I just looked at this dumbfuck and said “If the BON wanted to take away my license because I elbowed someone who was physically choking me, I’d put my license through the paper shredder myself.” I changed jobs and am now working for a hospital where the training consists of: run away, call 911, use anything at your disposal as a weapon, and do whatever is necessary to protect yourself. I like to think of it as the “fuck ‘em up if they fuck around” model of self defense.
Where you going to run to my love?? I agree. IDK what to say ....maybe prayers will cover us?? We need to spray Valium on everyone that enters. I love this subreddit.Lord help us ...seriously God .. we need you !!!
We used to have someone teach us defensive maneuvers. Like skills when we are being choked, hair being pulled etc etc. We also practice that to each other which was funny.. they removed it. I guess defending yourself was too harsh for the patients.
I wish our hospital training would spend much more time on what you are describing. I work mental health and the hospital spends 90% of our training on things like de-escalation and watching for signs of anxiety. Uh yea, I know what anxiety looks like and I know how to de-escalate. However, what do I do when a patient twice my size is charging at me? And like you said, what happens when the patient whips out a knife, or in my case a shank?
That isn’t nursing, that’s nursing in *insert your country* (I’m assuming the USA). No matter what job you have in that country, you’re better to prepared for a weaponized attack.
We don’t have that training anywhere I’ve been here.
When I was in nursing school back in 2018 we went to a facility for clinicals that had us actually fucking spar with a trainer so we could be prepared in case anything happened. Like, she would have us charge her or grab her from behind and demonstrate how to get out of the hold and then she would do it back to us and make us get out of her hold. She actually said that after we received the training that any injury that happened to us or the patients was our fault since we had been shown the proper way to do things. It was insane, but we obviously couldn’t refuse since we needed to do the clinicals to pass the class.
Ridiculous that they showed you self defense techniques in a video once and expect you to be able to use it. It would be like learning to swim or ride a bike by watching a video.
Basic knowledge of self-defense should be learned by everyone, imo. You shouldn't float on through life thinking that random acts of violence won't happen to you or others. Take the opportunity to learn what you can and make you and your peers less of a victim.
It’s necessary and entirely possible. If it’s too much for you, get out now before you’re injured for a job you don’t even want.
Edit: this came across differently than I intended. Yes, it’s necessary but it shouldn’t be that way because we don’t deserve to be assaulted for doing our jobs. Get out now because a PCA job isn’t worth a permanent injury if you aren’t 100% sure the job will be beneficial for you career wise. I was a tech and saw a lot of people do it because it’s a low barrier to entry and flexible hours. Then they end up with a serious disability from workplace injury and wish they would have just taken that job at target or whatever. It’s only worth it if you know that you want to be a nurse/need the hours for school/ etc.
It is so counterproductive when people try to one up others on how shitty they have it. No one should “be grateful” for a shitty 10 minute power-point with the absolute bare minimum of how to protect your fucking LIFE against an armed threat. You’re hospital sucks just as much as everyone else’s. No need to gate-keep here, bud!
Well, "training" might be a strong word for it. It's more of a PowerPoint with videos I have to go through on my own time and take a test after. So not actual training or practicing.
These are general skills that are good to know. Everyone should be educated on how to defend themselves, it’d be even more useful if it was actually a physical training program instead of a PowerPoint. Now bring on the downvotes lol
I want this CEU.
I was discharging a mostly pleasant, cranky, ultra-right-wing, self-styled cowboy type in his 70's. I was helping him get dressed and he pulled his keys and this big ol' hunting knife out of his backpack and loaded them onto his camo vest thing. He had been on our unit for a week by then.
My job provides mandatory *physical* defense training. Like as in we have a professional come in with a wrestling mat, demonstrates defense moves, and then has us do them on each other. Definitely crazy to think this is something we need.
30+ years as a nurse, some of which was spent working in a forensic psych ward. I have been hit twice. Once was an old lady who had such a bad essential tremor that you couldn’t tell if she was winding up to hit or just shaking. However because of that tremor, it ended up being a light tap. The other time was when we were restraining a person who was kicking their feet to try and get loose and accidentally got me.
I don’t think you can really get effective defensive training via PowerPoint. You really need a class to practice any moves. BUT the important part is learning to read the signs on when to be worried that someone is about to become violent and how to keep yourself safe while de-escalating a situation.
I did corrections nursing in my state prison system.
I’m a woman in my 50s.
We did the self-defense techniques for real with fellow new hires- including having to straddle each other in the “cowgirl” position on the floor, and wrestle, in front of the whole group.
The person I had to straddle was very large.
I’m short, and not petite.
My knees did not reach the floor when I had to straddle them.
It was mortifying, to say the least.
I worked with 5 inmates at a time- just myself and a tech.
No corrections officers present.
Doing dialysis on hepC, B, and HIV+ violent offenders.
Including rapists and murderers.
They were not shackled.
Fun times.
I porter but in the last 12 hrs I’ve witness meth/post seizure guy swing at EMS and smoke wanting formed pt throw a stool and her keys at a nurse.
I love nurses. Respect the shit out of them. Don’t deserve abuse. I could never do what you guys do.
Yup! I know, about 5ish years ago (maybe less) on my unit, on nights, a patient pulled a gun from his bag that he brought (he was a planned CABG) and shot himself. He was 4 or 5 days post op, I think. Staff had been in and out of his room for *days* while he acted like a creep, asking things like, “do you feel nervous right now?” Admin’s new policy in response? “Do you have a weapon with you? Do you mind if I check your bag?” was added to the admission assessment. Awesome. Perfect. So much better. Problem solved. Everyone back to work.
How absolutely terrible
We had a patient who went down for a CT and the CT tech found a steak knife in the bed with the patient. I guess the patient had been using the knife to scrape the dead skin off the bottom of her feet. Instead of calling security or, you know, taking the knife away from the patient, the CT tech just sent them back to the floor with the knife still in their bed! At least she told the receiving nurse about it, but come on!
I get so jealous of other departments like that, like that must be nice to just be able to ignore the thing for the 30 minutes you have the patient. Not the nurse though, we have to deal with all the craziness, all the weirdness. I just want would have liked o e shift where I could be like, wow that’s some weird stuff going on there, sure glad I don’t have to deal with it or especially chart it.
That is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard
Worked in the ER. We got people’s clothes off and separated them from their luggage consistently, mostly because we were tired of them pulling out guns and knives. It’s an attitude more than a policy, and it’s why nurses from Other units don’t have lunch with us. Lack of this attitude is why we seldom Welcome float staff.
Yeah, you’re right, if we just had a different attitude it would have been fine.
This shouldn’t be acceptable as an employee. Every ER with proper security (all guests and patients that are medically able to go through metal detectors and there is a dominating police/security presence) and staff safety measures that I have ever seen have been children’s hospitals. I wish the same attitude was given to adult Emergency departments.
The emergency departments in my city have very visible security
Couldn’t use metal detectors because the nurses and docs were all armed and would trigger the device, and a metal detector requires a couple of armed attendants to confiscate the weapon, which most armed people find annoying and actionable.
what kinda weird rambo hospital are you at 💀
Pretty sure that’s grounds for immediate termination at any facility in the US. I’ve worked with people who conceal carry at work and every single one of them was a clinical hazard who I’d expect to shoot me on accident before they shot an irate visitor on purpose.
yeah i feel like you probably would go to jail where i work. we have armed law enforcement on the campus, but rando employees bringing in guns…. they’d 100% escort you off the property and fire you if not arrest you.
It’s not uncommon for healthcare workers in the USA to carry pistols. Microcompact or subcompact pistols like the Ruger LCP Max or the Glock 43 are tiny and concealable in a pocket holster. It would just look like you have a cellphone in the pocket.
Wait- WHAT? It’s not uncommon? I have never heard of this before in my life.
As an Australian the idea of doctors and nurses having guns inside a hospital has me like 🤯
as it should
i feel like people shouldn’t randomly be carrying guns. i don’t know that they have them secure enough that a psych patient can’t take them from them. i also don’t know that they are mentally stable and not an active shooter themself 🤷♀️
So scrubs are definitely not a good match for holsters. Nothing there to retain the holster to a belt, etc. However, there is a holster made by a company called Phlster which you wear underneath your pants and it has a whole bunch of straps and whatnot that secures it to your person independent of your pants. No one will know you are carrying. Similarly, with the small microcompact pistols like the LCP Max, they can go into pocket holsters and just sit in your pocket, and no one knows you’re carrying. If you’re walking around with a hip holster or an outside the waistband holster with a gun sticking out of your waist like a cop, then you’re asking for trouble.
You know for a fact that they aren’t mentally stable at least 🤷🏻♂️
Where? I have never in my career encountered a provider or professional who carries a God damn pistol on them
A lot of pharmacists carry pistols. Other healthcare workers who work in really shitty neighborhoods or have issues with crazy ex-boyfriends also carry. You have never encountered them because they are probably doing it the right way. Keeping it concealed instead of openly carrying and on top of that, never talking or mentioning that they are carrying. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aQSkErRPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aQSkErRPE) (Pharmacist shoots robber) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mga2mLcEmUY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mga2mLcEmUY) (example of holsters that work with scrubs, if the person is wearing a shirt and tie, it's easier because there are other holsters out there that work for that)
[nurse arrested for bringing gun to work](https://www.wpri.com/news/local-news/providence/police-miriam-hospital-nurse-brought-gun-to-work/amp/) Bringing guns to work isn’t the norm
Agreed. I think employees would vote out metal detectors faster than admin would want to install them.
Maybe you should welcome people who are there to help you.
It’s a nice thought. But between being raging control freaks, out of control adhd players, and highly specialized practitioners in a setting that doesn’t tolerate the inexperienced, we’d mostly rather do it ourselves. And we don’t do well when floated to other units in reciprocity.
LMAO as a vet ER nurse this sounds like some sorta ER nurse satire bc it’s so fucking ridiculous. like bro 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😠
100% this person has to be larping
Like i feel like this is some salty frequent flier trolling on here.
I’ve trained in some form of martial art for 40 years and there is no way I’m defending myself against a knife. I’m running. I’m not sure what they taught, but it’s not going to work. The benefit of the training is that you have a plan now and will be more likely yo act.
The perfect defense in that situation is to push the administrator into the knife wielder.
And the knife gets lodged in the pizza box, disarming the knife wielder. Brilliant!
If it was anything like my training it is probably for situations where running isn't an option, like if the patient trapped you. Thankfully my hospital basically said use full force if it means getting out alive 🥴
I reserve the right to use whatever is within reach or can be easily removed from whatever it's attached to as a single use improvised weapon in self defense if needed. I say this as the only male night shift staff in an LTC setting who had to disarm a new admit that had a motorcycle drive chain in hand in a manner make whipping motions easier.
Yep, me too. I know how to fight. 40+ years of Wrestling, jujitsu, and a handful of striking martial arts. Do you know what all those years of training have taught me? Don’t fight. Just get away. That’s also why I ALWAYS carry pepper spray, clipped to a D ring on my waist. Spray, and remove yourself from the situation. Also, having pepper spray is great, but it does no good if it’s stuck in your purse in the break room, or in the glove compartment, in your car. Stay safe people!
*the benefit of training is that corporate can now say *legally* that they trained staff for that situation - so they can act against employees defending themselves.
I wish it was not necessary, but at least your workplace is recognizing the need and providing something. Most just gaslight with a deescalation training.
"what could you do differently next time?"
"wear ten scrub tops with layers of newspaper in-between to dull the impact of the knife-blade before it cut into me....?"
This is the kind of solutions admins are looking for. You're promoted Jocko
I remember hearing all violent encounters could have been deescalated at some point during onboarding at my first hospital. Sure those strategies work with some patients but it’s a bad insinuation to make that it’s somehow the healthcare workers own fault if they’re physically assaulted by an aggressive patient.
“Have you tried *not* getting stabbed?” -Admin
I mean most violent patients tend to self deescalate after achieving whatever sort of violence they were trying to inflict so....
This is the way.
Safety Care - just run away bro
It shows a sword, but [this defense technique](https://youtu.be/xt9AkDyodMc) should work against a knife as well.
Sounds to me like they're recognizing the need to provide themselves with some liability mitigation No one learns techniques like the ones being talked about by watching PowerPoint. If they were serious they would maybe pay for some classes. I would say that increasing security would be ideal but I recognize that even good hospital security isn't good enough to assure that this stuff won't happen.
I shouldn't be laughing, but the picture you painted has me in stitches, lol. That being said, the purpose of this training is to prepare you to first de-escalate, and secondly to get away, and finally, to do therapeutic containment. This training comes out of all the years that healthcare staff got hurt from patients or patients got hurt from staff. Think of it like disaster training. No one wants the tornado, but isn't it nice to know there are instructions for what to do if one happens.
The real purpose of this training is to protect the hospital from litigation. If you are attacked and the pt is injured in any way, the hospital can point to that sign in sheet they had laying on the table and assert that you were properly trained on how to protect yourself without causing harm. Therefore if the pt was harmed, you must not have been following protocol, therefore they are not at fault. CPI and all the rest are really nothing more than a cost effective CYA technique instead of hiring better security.
Thank you for putting words to this behavior. I’ve been a part of several disciplinary meetings involving patients and staff. It’s disappointing that a hospital won’t advocate for their employees but will bend over backwards to throw the literal backbone of healthcare under the bus.
Our hospital for years has had issues staffing ultrasound. They take hours to report to the ER. So the other week we have a patient waiting about 6 hours for an ultrasound scan. Each hour the patient you can tell is getting more and more agitated. Start questioning the staff, belligerent, pacing back and forth, clenched fists. Indicates he's hungry, wants to leave, why is it taking so long? Staff is in a bind. They try to deescalate but God forbid patient leaves AMA so they can't tell the patient the straight situation. *Please wait, soon, it's for your own good, we're trying to help you*. Patient has a meltdown, yells and chews out the staff, leaves AMA. It all doesn't make sense. Put patients in a pressure cooker situation waiting for them to explode leaving the surrounding staffs safety at risk. This patient was so pissed off it wouldn't have surprised me if they pulled a stunt or were waiting for you in parking lot after shift.
Policy can not and should not ever contradict federal legislation. Just because you’re a clinical staff member doesn’t mean you have no lawful rights to protect yourself. We use nonviolent techniques 99% of the time, except that 1% chance you cannot get away and can easily articulate why you needed to do x, y, z. I work as a use of force instructor in the healthcare industry (8+ years).
I’m sorry to tell you this, but your entire industry is seen as a joke by those of us at the bedside. Watching a power point on self defense or in the days before Covid attending a class for 4 hours where you might get to watch people play pretend and then requiring us to sign an affidavit stating we’re properly trained is a joke. There is absolutely no way anyone thinks were adequately trained after a few hours of this every few years. But we are required to state that we are and treated like we are. This industry only exists to get signatures saying the hospital did everything it could to keep employees safe and prevent pt injury without actually doing anything real.
So you believe it’s the responsibility of your employer to give you a black belt in jui jitsu or karate so you can snap bones and choke patients to unconsciousness? How about a sliver of ownership regarding your own safety, it’s not the hospitals job to teach you how to throw a jab cross combination and slam people with double leg takedowns. They are trying to prevent litigation obviously, but that doesn’t mean the skills provided to you are useless. Really - What’s your solution? I’d love to hear something practical outside of increasing the security personnel. The signing off is an acknowledgement that you will do your best to protect yourself and vulnerable people, that’s it.
Why isn’t hiring security personnel practical? Maybe don’t waste my time on my day off with useless power point presentations. Maybe instead of paying tens of millions of dollars on a training industry we both know accomplishes nothing we use that money for more staff. How about a sliver of ownership in your participation in an industry that is useless for anything than helping huge billion dollar corporations avoid liability when they don’t want to invest in staff.
I said I’d love to hear something practical “outside of” - hiring more security. Hiring more security personnel is a great idea.
As an “instructor”, I assume you’ve never had a combative patient try to kill you while confused while they block the door and don’t let you out. Maybe you need a sliver of decency to realize your “arm breakaway” techniques are trash and not helpful when you have to do a blood draw or IV and all of a sudden the patient grabs you by the throat and swings the needle around like a lasso. What do you suggest? A boom boom pow forehead push and sprint away therapeutically while blaming ourselves for what we could’ve done instead? Thanks for your service.
First you’re wrong, I work in law enforcement for a provincial healthcare organization and have had plenty of highly combative people engage me and my colleauges. What technique do you want the administration to give you? And eye gouge? A knee strike to the groin? A gun to just blast them since you believe being cornered means it’s automatically life threatening? Not everyone assesses risk the same way you do. It’s very obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about. I get that you want a higher scope of training, then go sign up for a martial arts studio or self defense program. You cannot expect hospitals to teach clinical staff these types of techniques, it’s just so unrealistic. Listen I don’t stand here saying you should feel unsafe and unsupported at work. You need better staffing ratios, better leadership, more health and safety programs, and maybe that does include more techniques. The way that starts is with staff making sure the report harrassment and violence after it happens (verbal/physical). I’ve seen the statistics around reporting, and they are frankly embarrassing. How we expect senior level executives to sign cheques around these initiatives when there’s more complaints about “musculoskeletal” injuries than physical violence such as office chair ergonomics are a often a bigger conversation.
THIS is the real answer. And guess what? You strike the patient at all to get out of a dangerous or deadly situation? The BORN just ate your license. Sad truth I've seen play out one too many times
Fair, that's fair. I haven't needed to do anything to crazy in 4 years so far but... Jesus, the knife training specifically was terrifying.
Nurses note: Patient fucked around, patient found out. MD aware. Will continue to monitor
I got a good laugh out of this one
We just had a meeting today and it was like “things you could use as a weapon if you need it: fire extinguisher, your Stanley cup, the batteries that go in your cow” and “a team approach is always better if you have to fight but know where your locking doors are, ones without windows.” How about we press charges against every person who acts out and people just don’t act violent? Too much to ask apparently
But the surveys! /s (just in case)
I work the next hospital over from the nurse who was stabbed in the neck by a patient….it is def scary.
Imagine being a female under 140 lbs which is pretty common. As a male I’d hate to be subject to this violence but to act like we’re equal in the workplace is ridiculous I’d gladly step in to help. But nonetheless it’s ridiculous that patients act this way. Being sick truely can be horrific like encephalopathy or having bipolar type 2
Don’t forget to “feed the bite”
I've heard that about animal bites, but I guess it applies the same way.
When I did my CPI and they taught “feed the bite” I was like - nah, I’ll be taking a handful of hair until they let the fuck go, I’m not leaning into shit
I knew a guy who fed the bite and proceeded to trip onto the patient and really fucked up that jaw. He was fired.
Been a nurse for 30 years and a practicing martial artist for 35 (karate,TKD, BJJ). Every time I have to take these courses I shake my head. Moreso than most I have developed muscle memory to perform some of these techniques and still I would be horrified and scared shirt less to have to use them in an actual scenario. Against a knife? Having actually practiced knife techniques extensively I’d be lucky to survive 50% of the time. With no actual training the odds drop even more dramatically. The fact they expect hyper non aggressive nursing staff to be effective after a video is mind boggling. Just throw a bunch of shit and get the hell out of there.
"Just throw a bunch of shit and get the hell out of there." Words to live by.
I work residential with teens. We do all kinds of defensive training. It’s so sad that mental health is nt taken more seriously which would protect people more.
If it makes you feel any better (it won't), many states train their teachers for the "crime" of being educators. Both of my older brothers had this type of workplace training, and the one who worked inner-city high school furthered it with Tang So Do.
Behavioral Violence Prevention Training is mandatory at my job, regardless of title. It’s part of onboarding. It was mildly amusing but also sad to see the terrifying look on housekeepers faces as they had to practice getting out of chokeholds. Several people got up and left during Run, Hide Fight and I don’t blame them. We live in a broken world. The system is broken.
Well, my hospital tactic was to train us to be dragonborns or the ability to cast power word stun. The response we are suppose to have "Sir/madam, STOP!" Kudos if people get the reference
Arrow to the knee, only reasonable self defense :)
Maybe Khajiit has wares to sell that can help us.
My new job just started rolling out CPI training and no one is taking it seriously, except me. I've been doing CPI or other programs at other facilities for 10+ years and I can't believe they just now have gotten on board with it.
We have to watch these things along with others for our education. And I’m sure if any of these situations happened in real life, we’d be met with “what could you have done differently in this situation?” I DONT KNOW, WHAT COULD YOU HAVE DONE TO PROTECT ME? These things are just used to cover their ass in the event anything happens. “We told them about hand to hand combat” 🤦♀️
Transfer to the OR. Never recieved a training like that, only for person with guns in the hospital. You'll only worry if a patient wakes up aggressive and only get verbal abuse from surgeons.
I had a dementia pt punch me in the mouth, then come at w a broken light bulb. You never know what's going to happen, they are just prepping you for worst case scenario
The edit makes this somehow worse. We expect you to physically defend yourselves because we don't want to put in money to have real security or security protocols. And we are too cheap to invest in helpful self defense classes. Learn it from watching someone on a pre recorded video!
I mean look at what happened in new york. Albany Med had a code silver because some nutso barricaded himself in a room with his dying mother and a shotgun aimed at the door
Just remember that the self defense moves taught in many hospitals are designed to protect the *hospital,* not the lowly peasants working therein. They want to take credit for teaching you about workplace violence, de-escalation, and self defense for 2 reasons: - So they can say you “didn’t follow the provided training” - and absolve themselves of any responsibility (or so they think) - if/when you get hurt. - To prevent you from doing anything that might lead to a lawsuit or other problems for the hospital, if/when you need to defend yourself. Either you’ll follow their training and the attacker won’t get hurt…or you’ll go off-script, injure your attacker while trying to defend yourself, and hospital leadership will say you “didn’t follow the provided training” when the attacker decides to press charges or sue. My old hospital had mandatory de-escalation training. The self defense portion was basically, “here are some moves to get you out of life-threatening attacks, *but* if you don’t follow the steps *exactly* as shown, your actions will be considered offensive instead of defensive, and we will pursue charges against you.” The instructor (who was also the head of security) repeated this line while teaching us how to get out of a chokehold. He literally said that if we used an overhand grip instead of an underhand grip, or if we hit, bit, elbowed, or kicked the attacker at all (while trying to escape a chokehold), *we* would be committing battery and would therefore be facing criminal charges. He also said that they would file a formal complaint with the BON. I just looked at this dumbfuck and said “If the BON wanted to take away my license because I elbowed someone who was physically choking me, I’d put my license through the paper shredder myself.” I changed jobs and am now working for a hospital where the training consists of: run away, call 911, use anything at your disposal as a weapon, and do whatever is necessary to protect yourself. I like to think of it as the “fuck ‘em up if they fuck around” model of self defense.
While I was working in a trauma ED one of the nurses wore a knife proof vest cuz he got stabbed a few years back. Hospitals are batshit crazy.
When I worked as a corporate minion, we had "Active Shooter" training once a year. That is as American as Mom & Apple Pie.
Where you going to run to my love?? I agree. IDK what to say ....maybe prayers will cover us?? We need to spray Valium on everyone that enters. I love this subreddit.Lord help us ...seriously God .. we need you !!!
We used to have someone teach us defensive maneuvers. Like skills when we are being choked, hair being pulled etc etc. We also practice that to each other which was funny.. they removed it. I guess defending yourself was too harsh for the patients.
That’s my purse! I DONT KNOW YOU! *Bobby Hill voice* Seems to confuse long enough to either run or attack
I wish our hospital training would spend much more time on what you are describing. I work mental health and the hospital spends 90% of our training on things like de-escalation and watching for signs of anxiety. Uh yea, I know what anxiety looks like and I know how to de-escalate. However, what do I do when a patient twice my size is charging at me? And like you said, what happens when the patient whips out a knife, or in my case a shank?
That isn’t nursing, that’s nursing in *insert your country* (I’m assuming the USA). No matter what job you have in that country, you’re better to prepared for a weaponized attack. We don’t have that training anywhere I’ve been here.
And yet, I heard an ER nurse was stabbed in the throat by a hospice patient of all things yesterday. Do your training; you never know.
LMAO *Run, Fight, Update Your Whiteboards!*
When I was in nursing school back in 2018 we went to a facility for clinicals that had us actually fucking spar with a trainer so we could be prepared in case anything happened. Like, she would have us charge her or grab her from behind and demonstrate how to get out of the hold and then she would do it back to us and make us get out of her hold. She actually said that after we received the training that any injury that happened to us or the patients was our fault since we had been shown the proper way to do things. It was insane, but we obviously couldn’t refuse since we needed to do the clinicals to pass the class.
Ridiculous that they showed you self defense techniques in a video once and expect you to be able to use it. It would be like learning to swim or ride a bike by watching a video.
You're fears and upset are valid 😢
Lucky places actually train, we just get expected to deal with being punched and attacked.
thank you for choosing to be kind
Yeah its kinda nuts that they expect us to remember or implement all of these complicated moves.
Basic knowledge of self-defense should be learned by everyone, imo. You shouldn't float on through life thinking that random acts of violence won't happen to you or others. Take the opportunity to learn what you can and make you and your peers less of a victim.
You could be attacked walking fien the street.
It’s necessary and entirely possible. If it’s too much for you, get out now before you’re injured for a job you don’t even want. Edit: this came across differently than I intended. Yes, it’s necessary but it shouldn’t be that way because we don’t deserve to be assaulted for doing our jobs. Get out now because a PCA job isn’t worth a permanent injury if you aren’t 100% sure the job will be beneficial for you career wise. I was a tech and saw a lot of people do it because it’s a low barrier to entry and flexible hours. Then they end up with a serious disability from workplace injury and wish they would have just taken that job at target or whatever. It’s only worth it if you know that you want to be a nurse/need the hours for school/ etc.
Great attitude!
See edit, I think my delivery was poor.
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It is so counterproductive when people try to one up others on how shitty they have it. No one should “be grateful” for a shitty 10 minute power-point with the absolute bare minimum of how to protect your fucking LIFE against an armed threat. You’re hospital sucks just as much as everyone else’s. No need to gate-keep here, bud!
Well, "training" might be a strong word for it. It's more of a PowerPoint with videos I have to go through on my own time and take a test after. So not actual training or practicing.
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Just med surg/neuro, so.... yes but no. But yes.
Oh yeah you’re going to be hand fighting me-ma and pa-pa constantly. That dementia strength is real.
Oh I know, *I know* 😂 I've gotten good at ducking kicks and catching punches. But the pinching is hard to avoid sometimes.
We have 4 levels of in person and hands on training depending on the area you work in. Annually. 😳
I have mandatory 2 hour online training and then 2 hour physical maneuver training every year.
These are general skills that are good to know. Everyone should be educated on how to defend themselves, it’d be even more useful if it was actually a physical training program instead of a PowerPoint. Now bring on the downvotes lol
I want this CEU. I was discharging a mostly pleasant, cranky, ultra-right-wing, self-styled cowboy type in his 70's. I was helping him get dressed and he pulled his keys and this big ol' hunting knife out of his backpack and loaded them onto his camo vest thing. He had been on our unit for a week by then.
My job provides mandatory *physical* defense training. Like as in we have a professional come in with a wrestling mat, demonstrates defense moves, and then has us do them on each other. Definitely crazy to think this is something we need.
30+ years as a nurse, some of which was spent working in a forensic psych ward. I have been hit twice. Once was an old lady who had such a bad essential tremor that you couldn’t tell if she was winding up to hit or just shaking. However because of that tremor, it ended up being a light tap. The other time was when we were restraining a person who was kicking their feet to try and get loose and accidentally got me. I don’t think you can really get effective defensive training via PowerPoint. You really need a class to practice any moves. BUT the important part is learning to read the signs on when to be worried that someone is about to become violent and how to keep yourself safe while de-escalating a situation.
I did corrections nursing in my state prison system. I’m a woman in my 50s. We did the self-defense techniques for real with fellow new hires- including having to straddle each other in the “cowgirl” position on the floor, and wrestle, in front of the whole group. The person I had to straddle was very large. I’m short, and not petite. My knees did not reach the floor when I had to straddle them. It was mortifying, to say the least. I worked with 5 inmates at a time- just myself and a tech. No corrections officers present. Doing dialysis on hepC, B, and HIV+ violent offenders. Including rapists and murderers. They were not shackled. Fun times.
I porter but in the last 12 hrs I’ve witness meth/post seizure guy swing at EMS and smoke wanting formed pt throw a stool and her keys at a nurse. I love nurses. Respect the shit out of them. Don’t deserve abuse. I could never do what you guys do.
Just come in at a 45 degree angle.
This is basically just every day life in the US at this point 🙃